Poor grammar in lyrics

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Bupkes
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:08 PM

"Amn't" is new to me, and at first I thought it was someone parodying this discussion. But I see some convincing examples in a page of Wikipedia devoted to it. There it says, among other things,

'The Standard English form "I'm not" is available as an alternative to "I amn't" in Scottish English and Hiberno-English. There is no undisputed standard equivalent of "amn't I": "am I not", "aren't I", and "ain't I" may respectively be considered stilted, affected, and substandard.'

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:01 AM

Returning to the I/me issue: I suspect that the common use of "(X) and I" in the accusative (i.e., for those who eschew such grammatical terminology, contexts where the one pronoun alone would certainly be "me") arises mainly from overcorrection, when teachers have condemned "me" in the nominative (i.e. where it would be "I"), and children have then applied this even where "me" would be normal. This could easily be exacerbated when some of those children become teachers of the next generation.

However there has been a further stage of development: that speakers have become so afraid of getting it "wrong" that they have adopted "myself" instead. The more often this is heard, the more it comes to seem normal, and the more people adopt it. If anything, I think I hear "(X) and myself" or "myself and (X)" more often nowadays than either "(X) and me" or "(X) and I"; this despite no-one having the slightest trouble in knowing which word to use when it is "I" or "me" alone.

One usage where the prescriptive grammarians wanted "I", but "me" is more natural, is in phrases such as "It's me". No-one would suggest that "C'est moi" is bad French and ought to be "C'est je", and there is no more reason to object to "It's me" in English.

Apropos "larn" or "learn" instead of "teach": at one time both senses of "learn" were good English, and the equivalent words still have both senses in the other Germanic languages.

Richard

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:03 AM

The Wikipedia article, assuming it can be relied upon, clarifies the confusion and disagreement over "amn't". According to the article, it is a feature of some dialects of Scottish and Irish English. It is not, in my experience, a feature of English English. I say "aren't", and I am not a dialect speaker - I speak "middle-class standard Southern English", slightly tinged by 30 years living in the North. So far as I am aware, everyone I know also says "aren't". I am quite sure I have never heard "amn't" with the "m" pronounced, not even in Scotland (which I visit several times a year).

I have just picked up a novel at random to check how this usage is written down, and the author uses "aren't I?". This author is Val McDermid, who as it happens is Scottish, and the words are being spoken by a Scottish character, albeit an educated professional person rather than someone speaking vernacular Glaswegian.

I find the Wikipedia comment that "aren't" is "affected" rather surprising, since in my experience living in England it is the normal construction, at least in speech.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:20 AM

I aren't convinced.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: melodeonboy
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 06:49 AM

And I certainly ain't!

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:05 AM

""Nobody in the UK would say , "Of course I love you ,I'm your mum ,am I not?" "

They certainly WOULD say that. But more often, they'd say "aren't I?". Even though, strictly speaking, it's not correct.""

True Sue, or even ain't I?

Amn't is a term I have heard, but rarely, and only in a very few dialects.

But then I'm a Southerner, so everything I say is suspect, north of Birmingham.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Robo
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:53 AM

Please repeat after me: Poetic license . . . poetic license . . . poetic license.

And now, idiomatic expression . . . idiomatic expression . . . idiomatic expression.

And last, suspension of disbelief . . . suspension of disbelief . . . suspension of disbelief.

And let us not forget, as the old Texan said, "there ain't no money in poetry, and that's what sets the poet free."

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Artful Codger
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM

Strictly speaking, "aren't I?" and "It's me" now are correct, and occur more frequently in "standard", even formal, usage than the supposedly "grammatically correct" alternatives, which are consequently less so. They have become fixed idioms, and do not follow the rules applied to other contexts.

This points out that grammar rules are not entirely consistent across the board; "correct" usage depends on grammatical context. We say "You went" but "Did you go?" We say "Did you go?" but not "Did you be?" "Aren't I?" as the negative form of "Am I?" is just one of those things. If you claim it's not "grammatically correct", you don't know what correct grammar is.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:28 PM

"I believe in the power of you and I"

Are you sure this isn't a misheard lyric - perhaps the writer had got a particularly nice job in specialist fashion, textiles or clothing?

I believe in the power of U&I

For appalling grammar and forced rhyme you can't beat Ian Dury:

Einstein can't be classed as witless.
He claimed atoms were the littlest.
When you did a bit of splitting-em-ness
Frightened everybody shitless

A work of genius...

Pete.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: mayomick
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:29 PM

Don must come from a very rough part of Southern England indeed to speak so commonly and incorrectly . Likewise Suegorgeous .I was born and bred in the East End of London where we were taught to speak properly. In the east-end it was "amn't" - pronounced like "aren't" only with an "m" instead of an "n". The teachers were always trying to stop kids saying aremn't at the schools I went to -that was in the fifties and sixties .

I think this aremn't pronunciation might have started with posh English teachers trying to knock "amnt" out of kids of Irish parentage ,but confusing them into saying aremn't. When I was growing up you used to have people trying to sound a bit posh making all sorts of mistakes .Putting an "h" at the beginning of a word that should have started with a vowel was another one. Sometimes you'd get someone saying something like Hi harm't 'alf clever, harm't I ? I often wondered whether the word ham for a ham actor didn't come about that way . Professional actors mocking the hamateurs .Sorry for more thread creep.... mick

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 02:31 PM

Oh fuck. What a lot of shit. There are many many attempts above to lay down or enunciate rules of grammar that are just plain wrong.

One cannot expect perfect grammar in vernacular speech. Some solecisms, however, grate even in casual speech or writing.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 03:01 PM

""Don must come from a very rough part of Southern England indeed to speak so commonly and incorrectly .""

Notting Hill, Mick!

That's Ladbroke Grove, West London, on the edge of Steptoe and Son country.

From birth to age seventeen, and the nearest place I heard amn't in use was Oxborough, Norfolk, when I spent summer holidays with my Dad's sister Mary, and her Norfolk born and bred husband, Fred.

My father was a County Cork man, and my mother the daughter of a Cornish farmer, who immigrated from County Mayo, and I did hear amn't from him on occasion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: semi-submersible
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 05:02 PM

Further to the question of "I sat there" versus "I was sitting there": both correct, not always interchangeable.
"I sat" may refer either to the action of seating yourself, or to the duration of your sitting: "I sat there all evening."

"I was sitting" refers only to the period after you seated yourself. Returning to my seat and finding it occupied by someone else, I would not assert my prior claim with "I sat there" but rather "I was sitting there," or "I sat there first." The simple past "I sat there" could imply my occupation of that seat was over and done: mere historic information.

You could with only a slight change of meaning substitute "was sitting" in the phrase "I sat there before anyone else could take that seat"; while "was sitting" would make a great difference to "I sat there immediately when Dad told me." The past progressive (?) tense "I was sitting," instead of telling about the action itself, describes a scene after action ends.

I'm not getting this out of a textbook: I'm describing how our language, as I see it in use, gets ideas across as faithfully as possible. Is it any more pedantic than discussing modes and harmonies? Pedantic is making arbitrary rules and telling others to follow them: prescribing, not describing.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 06:12 PM

Semi-s., you are indeed correct. Uncle Dave, in your gracious acknowledgement, you suppied the terms that I couldn't remember yesterday: transitive/intransitive.

I've heard "amn't," probably more often in movies and on TV than in the flesh, since it isn't common usage where I live. In my experience, I've heard the "m" vocalized pretty clearly; learning that the "m" is often silent among native speakers of dialects featuring this contraction, it's even more clear to me that "amn't" has evolved into "ain't," i.e., that "ain't" is a direct "descendant" of "amn't."

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Artful Codger
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 11:41 PM

The verb "to sit" is perhaps a confusing example to use, since it can refer to two different actions: that of taking a seat (usually clarified with the addition of "down") and that of remaining seated. semi-submersible is concentrating on the second meaning (remaining seated), where the time at which "I" assumed the seat is immaterial to the sentence; the process of remaining seated was still in progress when the other action occurred. The concept of "in progress" is why the tense is called the past progressive.

As an example of the past progressive with the first meaning of "sit", consider: "I was just sitting to dinner when the intractable vermin slipped a whoopee cushion under my descending posterior." Of course, this tense has other uses, as a previous poster indicated; for instance, "He was just sitting, staring into the distance" (more emphasis on the duration of the action than with "he just sat").

The simple past ("sat") doesn't necessarily imply that the action has completed: "the mountain sat like a sepulchre upon the landscape" (and it's probably sitting there still, if the strip miners haven't gotten to it).

While the simple past and the past progressive can often be swapped, there's usually a shift of focus, however subtle--if not an overt change in meaning. The difference is usually significant enough that we make the right choice automatically, without conscious deliberation--it's only when we attempt to describe why we chose what we did that we get confused.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 07:29 PM

'Tis my Father, I amn't able to stand my Ground.
—Terence's Comedies Made English by Sir Roger L'Estrange (1733).

Amn't I a brother, and no brother ever loved a sister better....
—Comic Dramas in Three Acts by Maria Edgeworth (1817)

But it was not long till, as I was hearing them read the 19th lesson, I asked them, as you directed me, 'How must we be justified?'
'By my good works,' says Jem Flynn.
'By faith,' says Bob Jones, 'amn't I right?'
'By faith and works,' says Darby Morris, 'amn't I right?'
'By faith without works, amn't I right?' says Miles Johnson.
'O! you're all right,' says I, 'more or less....'
—from an article "Case of the Protestants of Ireland" in Fraser's Magazine January, 1837.

"Well, Vara, look at me. Amn't I a poor wasted crathur now, in comparishment to what I was thin?"
—Traits and Stories of the Irish Peasantry, Volume 2 by William Carleton (1833)

"Alley," said he, "are you not my wife, and amn't I your husband? ..."
—From "The Two Brothers: An Irish Tale" in Chambers's Edinburgh Journal, Volume 4 (1836)

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 07:50 PM

Common usage in my part of Scotland (Lothians) is a variation in the tenses of the verbs to go and to come: instead of "He has gone" they say "He has went" and instead of "He has come" it will be "He has came".

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 07:50 PM

My friend, I don't know whether you knowed it or not, but there was a child of Rip,— Meenie her name was.
—from "Rip Van Winkle" as played by Joseph Jefferson, in Representative American Plays by Arthur Hobson Quinn (1765)

As I knowed I dursted not look into your Honner's fase, if I had not found out my Lady, thoff she was gone off the prem's in a quarter of an hour, as a man may say; so I knowed you would be glad at heart to know I had found her out: and so I send thiss Petur Partrick, who is to have 5 shillins, it being now near twelve of the clock at nite; for he would not stur without a hearty drinck too besides: and I was willing all shulde be snug likeways at the logins before I sent.
—from Clarissa, or, The History of a Young Lady by Samuel Richardson (1768)

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Artful Codger
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:30 PM

So was Dylan trying to emulate 1700s speech, or is that just pointless information? ;-}

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 01:15 AM

No, I don't think Dylan was trying to emulate 18th century speech. It only illustrates that "knowed" was recognized by writers as dialect speech as early as the 18th century.

Furthermore, I think that neither Dylan nor the 18th-century writers used "knowed" only because they didn't know any better. They were consciously using it to depict characters who spoke that way habitually.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Genie
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 02:34 AM

Robo, some lyricists should have their poetic licences revoked!

I agree with you, Richard (and others) - slang and dialect are fine in song and perfect grammar is neither required nor the hallmark of great poetry/lyrics, but when bad grammar seems to reflect sheer laziness or lack of imagination on the part of the writer - and does not reflect any commonly accepted usage, even in slang or dialect, it can be grating.   Just as some word usage we may hear on the street can be grating.

Dylan's use of "knowed" in a song with a hook that starts with "Ain't" seems quite natural to me; it fits in fine with the language style of the song. Ogden Nash's deliberate neologisms and mangling of language are meant as humor and, as such, not offensive (though the puns may be groan-inducing). Diamond's use of "brang" in the otherwise grammatically perfect "Play Me" is something I find grating.
"Last Saturday night I got married; me and my wife settled down" does not bother me because of the song "Goodnight, Irene" is pretty much in dialect throughout. Even the county music tendency of using "lay" to mean "lie" doesn't bother me much, because that's become common usage.   And "It's me, it's me, O Lord, standin' in the need of prayer" seems natural to me. But "Open up your morning light, say a little prayer for I" (Paula Cole: "I Don't Want To Wait") is like chalk on a blackboard (especially since several of the parallel couplets in her lyrics do not rhyme).   I would suspend her poetic license for that flagrant foul! ; D

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 22 May 10 - 11:40 AM

Hi Everybody...

I myself do not use English as the first language... I'm a Chinese.

I was quite puzzled when I first heard "Let me lay down beside you" (It was twelve years ago). I looked up the dictionary and found nothing about that usage...

Later on I became a John Devner fan, I started to realize that use "lay" to replace "lie" is only to make the lyrics sound better, and has nothing to do with the grammar.

Actually, I think that Denver used "lie" and "lay" right on most occasions, such as:

"There are lovers who lie unafraid in the dark..." (Shanghai Breezes)

"Lie there by the fire and watch the evening tire..." (Poems, Prayers and Promises)

"Then to lay me down and love lady's chains..." (I'd Rather Be a Cowboy)

Lines like this one use lay" because it's used in past tense IMO:

"I lay in my bed and I wondered after all has been said and is done for..." (On the Wings of a Dream)

As to "knowed" used by Bob Dylan, I think it's only a poetic usage to make a rhyme. Dylan is a great poet.

Anyway, this is just my own opinion, an opinion from a foreigner!

Take care...

Jason

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: PHJim
Date: 22 May 10 - 04:40 PM

Now do I be a fair young country boy
Me father came from Fareham.
He had another six just like I;
By Christ, how he could rare 'em.
Now, do me mum make dumplings nice
I bet you'd like to try 'em.
I've yet to find me a better one,
A country boy like I am.

For I can drive a plow and milk a cow;
I can reap and mow.
I'm as fresh as a daisy that grows in the field,
And they calls I "Buttercup Joe."

I have no complaints with Buttercup Joe, but I still hate the line from the Olympic song.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Tootler
Date: 23 May 10 - 05:07 PM

It ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
A light I never knew
An' it ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
I'm on the dark side of the avenue!!

Yuk!

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 10 - 05:39 PM

If Dylan had been worried about this kind of thing, he could of course have written:

"It ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
A light I never saw
An' it ain't no use in turnin' on your light, babe
I'm on the wrong side of your door"

But he wasn't, and quite right.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Marje
Date: 24 May 10 - 04:41 AM

Just stumpled on to this thread, and just for the record: I grew up in a Scottish family in Northern Ireland,where "amn't" was common among both Scottish and Irish speakers, particuarly in the interrogative "amn't I?". In other contexts you could substitute "I'm not" for "I amn't", but when you turn it round for the interrogative, it was always "amn't I?"

When I came over to England as a student, my friends mocked me for saying "amn't I", and insisted that I should say "aren't I". I protested that no one would say "I are" or "I aren't", or "are I?", and that "aren't I?" was illogical and ungrammatical. I have tried to stick to my guns, but I still don't often hear "amn't" in England.

It's not something I would defend to the death - the verb "to be" and all its parts are probably more subject to dialectical variants than any other words. I just feel irritated, even now, that others should have tried to "correct" my usage, which was logically and gramatically flawless even if they didn't like the sound of it.

Marje

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: GUEST,Amn't I?
Date: 24 May 10 - 05:11 AM

No amn't I! "The sky is on fire, I'm dying, ain't I, I'm going to Carolina in my mind!"

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: GUEST,MC Fat (at work)
Date: 24 May 10 - 07:31 AM

Being frae West Central Scotland I too find myself saying 'Amn't I' on occassions.

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Marje
Date: 24 May 10 - 08:32 AM

Well if you're going to Carolina in your mind, chances are that you're American, ain't you? But I'm British, amn't I?

Marje

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Jason Xion Wang
Date: 24 May 10 - 08:42 AM

What a clever answer, Marje... Looking up for that usage on internet dictionaries...

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: GUEST,Callie
Date: 24 May 10 - 08:53 AM

according to my ears (and the album liner), it's this:

But in this ever changing world in which we live, it
makes you give in and cry

Subject: RE: Poor grammar in lyrics
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 24 May 10 - 09:01 AM

West of Scotland:

I am so = I am    = am
                  
I am not = I am not = am not = amn't OR amny/umny which then becomes

umurny OR no amurny

In school children of all backgrounds always ask ' has the bell went' and the teachers reply 'yes it has gone' or 'yes it has rung'

- I was appalled to see an earlier post suggesting that 'saw' should rhyme with 'door' - the addition of an 'r' to words like law, saw etc. really grates on Scottish ears!