Why is folk such a small market?

Subject: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:31 AM

Ok you hear it from folks all the time- we are under paid. Hardly enough to survive.
Its a small group.....
Cant find new members....
Another folk club bites the dust....
Children aren't learning the songs....
There is a lack of interest.

Why is this the case?
WWW What went Wrong?

(No I will not accept the answer that people have evolved- ask Darwin it takes thousands of years for brains to change)

(I will also not accept the view that its all outdated and will never work- our folk treasures now existing and to come are timeless)

I know its not my fault as I have not been running anything.

So I guess something is terribly wrong if the folk market is still so small 50 some years after the folk revival.

This is not to say that it hasn't grown but that it has not grown enough.

I research write and publish books relating to folklore.....people are always telling me they will never sell. I tell them I don't mind but the work has to be done. But...why do I inherit a situation where folk is not a bigger market.

I guess this is because it has been terribly mis managed by of course, the people now doing it or in central roles over the past 50 years. They are not getting some things right enough to raise all boats far enough.

At the bottom line exposure to the music, preservation of the music and creation of new music doesnt happen as much as it should- We are not maximizing our abilities and opportunities when we do not constantly widen the market.

I would not put the blame on any one of the dimensions of the folk world.

Lots of dimensions- ordinary participants, professional participants, collectors, publishers, writers. They all have a role to play and they all have to cooperate.

Now I could lay out areas where I think there are problems but I think it more helpful if those working in these dimensions scratch their heads a bit. What I dont want to see are countless statements like"its always been and always will be"

Our current capitolist world is constantly showing us that people will buy anything. Look at all those products out there. The difference is proper marketing and cultivation rather than alienation of the potential market.

So what is being done wrong that has stunted the growth of the folk world and markets?

I want this solved before my next expensive huge research effort book in many volumes comes out :)

Remember its what has been done wrong that is behind this so be honest- lay it out so that it might be corrected. And that means everyone in the Biz. or in folk culture. We are all screwing things up somehow and it is not really necessary to continue to make such mistakes where is change needed!

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:44 AM

How long do you have? ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:01 AM

hi lizzie

I have an appointment with my doctor on Monday....lol

regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:09 AM

Because one of the ....ummmm.... 'features' of folk is that, like egg painting and curling and collecting samples of barbed wire, it does not feel the need to appeal to the majority of people..(who, in large groups, tend to distort and muddy the basic points to fit their personal ideas of what music SHOULD be.)

It is already the case that the definition of 'folk' has been expanded and diluted so that $$$$ can be made by people who are bored by the basics, but like the idea of not needing expensive costumes & huge speaker systems to put out some sort of vague approximation of what they think it's all about.....and then to gratuitously change certain components in order to have the NEW pieces identified with them.

(No...they don't all do this as a 'plan'. Many are quite unaware of how they are warping the process thru mass media.)


Any more questions? ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: GUEST,clumper
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:18 AM

Because there are far too many folk performers who are smug, insular, boring, and creatively sterile.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: folkandroots
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:31 AM

lack of interest?

Doesn't seem so to me where I'm sat in Central London, indeed within a mile of where I live I can think of at least four new folk (and I mean folk not acoustic) events that have started within the last couple of years and maintained a regular audience and presence and I get the impression that there have been a similar emergence of new nights, events in other parts of the country.

Also depending on how you measure Markets but if the number of folk recordings or attendees at festivals and events is anything to go by, seems relatively healthy to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: gnomad
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

They don't make diamonds as big as coal bricks.

Look at what is popular these days; you will see a very large proportion of what we might charitably term 'dross'. To have the good taste to prefer folk is evidently to be part of a minority.

This minority is small, but beautifully formed. If folk were to change enough to please the majority I strongly suspect that its worthwhile aspects would be lost in the process.

Luckily although much of the world entertainment scene operates on truly democratic lines (everyone gets what the majority wants) subversion has not yet been completely eliminated, despite such measures as PEL, so we keep right on being special. Future special people will be glad we did.

None of this helps Conrad's quest to make a big commercial success out of folk. Short of culling the entire audience of Big Brother (and similar) then setting out to breed a new generation of replacements I have nothing to suggest. Even that solution (which could be fun) would probably take too long, unless the expensive huge research involves a multi-decade timescale.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:12 PM

Be Careful!

We should start by throwing out and away the concept of manefest destany of minority.

Note also that I am not interested in commercial any more than any other dimension- that is why I noted that there are all kinds of dimensions commercial being only on.

What are these dimensions doing to keep things small minimizing growth.

Are they paying attention to the small things that create big negative environmental impacts upon the whole?

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:38 PM

Brains can evolve overnight if everyone with a certain type of brain say was exposed to a virus that only killed that particular type of brain..if all people who could reproduce it are gone there is your evolution. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Smedley
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:39 PM

Because, as gnomad's regrettably supercilious post suggests, most people who proclaim their devotion to 'folk' would HATE it if it became successful. They bask in the warm glow of feeling superior to ''''the masses'''' and wrap themselves in bear-hugs of disdain for mainstream popular culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM

Oh, it's SO good to know we are superior to the masses and can easily discern the shallowness of "mainstream popular culture."! ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Smedley
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:52 PM

Failed irony - always a bad sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Bert
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:34 PM

If what you are singing is not appealing to folk, then perhaps it isn't really folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:43 PM

It's all because of Madonna!!!! She MUST be stopped!


;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:44 PM

I would think the answer to be fairly simple..not a lot of people like it..same as a lot of people don't like opera, gregorian chant,or much classical music. It does not mean that those who do not like it lack discerning taste, they just have different taste. I also find, in many cases that there is an aura of smug exclusivity in the folk world that makes people feel excluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM

"Because, as gnomad's regrettably supercilious post suggests, most people who proclaim their devotion to 'folk' would HATE it if it became successful. They bask in the warm glow of feeling superior to ''''the masses'''' and wrap themselves in bear-hugs of disdain for mainstream popular culture."

Actually, for English folk, that's it in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:23 PM

I would go with the "don't like it" excuse but how many can afford to like "grand opera"

How can you like something that is not sold in the record stores or played on the radio.

Or for that matter costs more than your remaining disposable income as some concerts, conventions and festivals do.


Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:25 PM

It depends how/where folk is performed. out in public there is a lot of interest, even if it is largely non-participatory, but if folkies hide away i small back rooms, performing to there peers, what is there then to interest the public?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:56 PM

Actually - who gives a shit? It doesn't matter what genre of music you play. And, unless you're intent on making a living from it, it doesn't matter whether that genre of music is "popular" or not. What matters above all else is that you play music that appeals to you, that touches your heart, that you love.

I've played all kinds of music over a period of 45 years. Some of it made me a lot of money - some of it made no money whatsoever - but all of it has been fun and I've always loved what I've played. Why do it else?

So please let's not have yet another thread on whether "folk music" - whatever the f*ck that is - is small/large/popular/hated/blah-blah-blah. Just play the music you love and stop banging on about it.

And if you can't find a suitable environment in which to make your music, then take up your bed and make your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:02 PM

There is of course one very significant problem with getting folk music out into the mainstream, where people might have the chance to learn about it.

The Music Industry.

The fact that traditional music is in the public domain, and contemporary music is now firmly the intellectual property of the composer, means that the industry moguls can neither control it, nor steal it.

They would have to give up the piratical attitudes of a lifetime, and that is not about to happen.

Why is it that the public are not listening to a new "Beatles", "Stones", or "Pink Floyd"?

Because nobody creating material the studios can't own, will get airplay on Radio or TV.

There are one or two DJs who resist, and choose their own playlists, but even they have to play acertain amount of Simon Cowell pap, to earn a living.

The internet will change that, but it is hard to make those changes quickly when competing against so many genres with a head start.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:11 PM

hi will

Yes yes !!!! I like it.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: skipy
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:48 PM

Pigs eat swill because it is poured out for them day after day & they are happy with their swill & they don't have to think about or do anything, it just keeps on appearing for them.
Radio churns out swill by the skip load, so the listeners take it onboard day after day, no thought, no effort it is just there for them.
After all, radio presenters must know what they are talking about, so they must be right they are paid loads to be in the know about what is good for the listeners!
Pigs will never ask "where was this food before they gave it to us" what they don't know is that it was a few miles up the road in a very expensive, exclusive venue before it got scaped from expensive plates & mixed in a bucket then poured into their trough.
Skipy
However? Do we want all those pigs in our rerstaurant?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 04:43 PM

You are so right, Skipy. And so is Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:31 PM

I'm with you skipy, up to the final sentence.

No! We don't want all of them, just the ones who would be inspired by the beauty of the music. We do however have to let them all see and hear what it's about, else we won't know which are the ones we want.

The sows ears will rule themselves out, because the menu won't agree with them. The silk purses, we'll keep.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

I think back fondly sometimes to the days long before radio and TV...when all you had in the world was live music. Nothing else comes close to live music, and when you see a live performance right there in front of you, you know how good it is. That's where all the traditional music of the past came from: live music.

You can't beat that.

What we have now is a few huge commercial marketing and media corporations which prepackage and sell canned music...and God knows what has been done to it in terms of effects, sampling, dubbing, lip-synching, etc....what a shame.

Bob Dylan has been railing against what has happened to recorded music for decades now. I know exactly how he feels about that. Most of it's just not real anymore. It's been homogenized, pasteurinzed, and bastardized to the point where it's not worth listening to.

But...there are still diamonds in the swill here and there, if you look hard enough for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: skipy
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:58 PM

I have spent the last 39 years telling people about folk music by running clubs & festival + folkforms since 1971 many of the people in the folk world today & at folk concerts are a direct result of my efforts. When I opened RAF Brize Norton Folk Club Back in 1977 it was on a pay on the way out basis if you enjoyed it, within a few weeks there was a queue EVERY week to pay to go in. Those catters who come to folkforms will agree that nowadays most of the audience are people from Grove & surrounding towns & villages that have come because I have worked on them year in & year out until they make it a definate date in their annual diary & bring their friends, so YES I AM for sharing, relentlessly.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:08 PM

Attaboy Skip. 50 years now, for me, and I feel the same way.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: skipy
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:20 PM

I am also involved as a committee member with White Horse Ceilidls, so is no 1 son & wife, we are all committee members. The mission of our Ceilidhs is to bring folk dance to a new & young audience & it IS working!
See websites for folkforms, whitehorse folk festival & whitehorse ceilidhs.
Bearing in mind that I am not a folkie!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM

Pigs eat swill because it is poured out for them day after day & they are happy with their swill & they don't have to think about or do anything, it just keeps on appearing for them.

I would have said was more true of Folk than any other genre of music. That's why the market is so small - because it's 96.2% pigswill. As for the other 3.8% - it just is what it is for the love of it & doesn't give a feck either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM

Whatever makes you think that folk (whatever that is) is a small market? It is a huge market, with many small niches. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of separate folk genres, each of which has its own advocates and following. Some people restrict their participation and listening to one or a few, while others have much broader tastes. Should 99 of these go away so that the 100th can have the entire listening audience? Never going to happen, for too many reasons to list here.

Likewise there are hundreds of thousands of folk CDs available and hundreds (at least) of radio stations play folk music. Granted, you may have to resort to internet radio to hear most of them, but they are available...some are available only on line. The BBC alone must have two dozen or more. Most of this music is not "homogenized, pasteurized, and bastardized" by any means...consider, if nothing else, all of the Mudcatters who have produced CDs! My most recent CD Baby order was for three Mudcatter CDs.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:54 PM

Having been to folk festivals where about 85 to 90% of the live acts I saw were great...I can't agree with your very pessimistic view of the Folk scene, O man with the unpronouncable name... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: skipy
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:52 PM

S************* o**************8 you are going to the wrong places or just trying to start a fight, which is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:42 PM

Our ancestors put up with folk music because they could not find anything worse to listen to.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:51 PM

LOL!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:18 PM

I think there's an element of truth in what Bill D said. There are folkies who seem to take it as a badge of honor that the music isn't widely accepted. The biggest threat to folk music in their minds would probably be if it became popular again. Exclusive clubs don't open doors to the masses.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM

When folk music 'evolved' (or dissolved), into political protest songs, when the issues were either out dated or out grown, a lot of 'folk song artists' just kept on singing and playing in the same puerile mode, thinking they were being some sort of 'purists'. So, it got boring...BUT, a great picker, and song smith, is ALWAYS a pleasure to listen to(or be). Talent seems to have been replaced by wanna-be's, 'Johnnie-come-lately's '.....like the only people to be wowed by them are some sort of nostalgia buffs.

Music is music, is a gift...and doesn't have to be dated. But trying to recapture the 'better times' (of our youth), has very little relevance, to the new energy of living the cutting edge of the moment...therefore, dead.

Oh well..
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:28 PM

··· That's why the market is so small - because it's 96.2% pigswill. As for the other 3.8% - it just is what it is for the love of it ···

Thanks for reminder Sweeney. But this is place to quote Sturgeon's Law [sc Theodore Sturgeon, distinguished sf writer]: viz ~

"90% of Science Fiction is crap because 90% of EVERYTHING is crap".

Incontrovertible. & universally adaptable and applicable.

Including here...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 10:54 PM

My observation is music is in a cycle, much like fashon. As an example, take ties. You can save the old ties, and the width eventually comes back....but they never quite look the same as the new ones. There are some people, though a small number, that hold firmly onto the past, like the old ties,but it's often a small niche group.

Music changes. I like the classic country, but realize I am more of a minority each day. New country sounds different...and I can take it, but it's not like the classic stuff to me. You know, the stuff we grew up listening to.

Music is also partially social. Society and generations change and the the music changes with it. There are cases where a newer generation rediscovers or homors older music styles (for example, with Johnny Cash with the popular movie, or, Urban Cowboy bringing back an interest in Country) ....but, if it does not evolve with them, they move on.

So, if a music style does not evolve with the generations, it faces a possibility of being like latin..a dead language that few speck.an important Folk will always be an important part of musics roots .

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 01:44 AM

Oh yeah,..and if this present administration gets all it wants, acoustic guitars is all that musicians would be able to afford,..until they need to replace their strings!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 03:25 AM

"Actually - who gives a shit? It doesn't matter what genre of music you play. And, unless you're intent on making a living from it, it doesn't matter whether that genre of music is "popular" or not. What matters above all else is that you play music that appeals to you, that touches your heart, that you love."

Exactly my sentiments.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Davetnova
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 04:43 AM

I think The clue is in the word folk. Its music that people enjoy playing and singing. The commercial side, I would conjecture, is not folk, it is performance and art music. Folk is alive and in the hands it always was - the "folk" who play it. Money and exposure and commercialism have nothing to do with "folk" music.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 07:47 AM

It's been my experience that folk music fans are a cut above the rest in IQ, so, maybe it's simply that folk music requires more than a teaspoon full of brains to appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 08:13 AM

Well, they certainly pay more attention to the lyrics. I consider that a good sign. It means there are some tenants on the top floors of the building.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 08:27 AM

"It's been my experience that folk music fans are a cut above the rest in IQ, so, maybe it's simply that folk music requires more than a teaspoon full of brains to appreciate it."

On the one hand there does seem to be quite a high proportion of graduates and professionals who are folk enthusiasts. One might attribute this to the lower 'accessability' of tradfolk, in that it's unfamiliar to the ear so perhaps less easy to consume than contemporary styles and it also requires a certain degree of purposeful research to explore it. On the other hand, regular folk without a specialist interest in tradfolk or indeed any prior exposure to it, can respond extremely well to hearing it for the first time. So I think it's really just about the extremely low presence of traditional material in mainstream media and absence of it's presence in education and so-on that has led to it quite simply not being known about by most people.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:02 AM

Well, when people hear the term "folk music" they immediately think of Peter, Paul, and Mary, Joan Baez, the purposeful obscurity by egomaniac remnants of the beats, Bob Dylan and his desperate clones, peace, love, we shall overcome, let's all hold hands, kiss everyone's ass, bad ballad singers who sing songs 50 verses long, they think of the dreck that is shoved down our aural throats by the corporate media in the guise of Celtic Woman, Celtic thunder, Daniel O'Connell, Irish Rovers, or the bland college groups from the 60's.

what they don't realise is the history (however fallacious it may be), the violence of murders, wars, rapes, or the sexual nature hidden beneath the words, or the tune itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: MikeL2
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:07 AM

hi kendall

<" It's been my experience that folk music fans are a cut above the rest in IQ, so, maybe it's simply that folk music requires more than a teaspoon full of brains to appreciate it.">.

It depends how you define "rest". I don't think that aficionados of classical music, opera and ballet will agree with you.

Hope you are feeling better.

Regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:32 AM

I am not at all sure it is such a small market. Mumford and Sons at number 10 in the UK album chart seems to indicate that there are a lot of people buying some folk albums at least. Ronan Keating recording Dougie McLeans 'Caledonia' makes me think that popular artits see folk as a new medium. More folk being played on mainstream radio than I have ever heard before makes me think that the planners have realised there is mass market appeal.

Of course we could get into the 'is it folk music?' argument but do we realy want another one of those? And take no notice of anyone saying that they don't want folk to suceed in the UK. It simply isn't true. No-one I know begrudges anyone sucess provided they keep their integrity in doing so. Changing styles and selling out to get sucess is another matter altogether.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 09:50 AM

There seem to be quite a few comments which tend to indicate that it is small because it needs to be small or it cant get bigger. A rather hopeless point of view.

I have seen numerous posts on many threads from musicians that claim to want to have more exposure....its generally "we really dont make enough money don't you know".

So how do we help these good people if so many think that growth of the market is inherently "anti folk"?

Why is growth of the market important- Folk traditions, compositions, music, tunes, verse....is best preserved in real life in the minds and voices of the people. To think that it is preserved in books and on line is an illusion. Thats what I do- collect this stuff up and organize and publish it.

I could go on not caring and watch the market decline or expand artificially slowly due to bad strategies or I could find ways to get bad strategies modified to provide for more growth.

This is not made easier by the perception that exclusivity is here to stay.

How would you suggest folklorists, venue operators, musicians, singers, songwriters....every one in the food chain change their assumptions and strategies to foster growth?

There are many dimensions of the folk world how do we help them all to coordinate their work so that there is a net positive impact upon the folk environment as a whole?"

Rememer that commercial success is only one dimension. Each time a folkie comes out in public views of other potential folkies are influenced.

How can we engineer the perceptions of our universe. Whatever has happened over the last 50 years has not actually done it so change is perhaps called for. What change would that be then?

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM

MikeL2 - those other genres. Let's see how big their fans are when they are not standing on their wallets.

There may be another reason many never take to folk - it is taught to them in schools. As the American folk song says "Never marry a teacher, and here's the reason why: she blown her nose in cornbread and calls it pumpkin pie".

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk such a small market?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Mar 10 - 10:17 AM

Because we think we're better than the common folk who created the music?

Folk elitism is the ultimate oxymoron.

Let me outta here!

Jerry