BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics

Subject: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 05:21 PM

I wanted to say "least acceptable" but title length is insufficient.

Is it: -

Lord Ancram, the tax non-dom who undertook to become fully UK tax resident in order to be given a peerage and now sits in the HoL, is the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party - and STILL a tax non-dom to the amazement of most tax lawyers;

Rupert Murdoch who buys and sells Prime Ministers each erection (sorry, election) and has now bullied the BBC into disembowelling itself for his approval;

Donal Blaney (now there's a nice English name) who is alas a solicitor from Kent but also the chief executive of YBF (Young Britons' Federation) the "Tory Madrasa" that runs courses for the conservatices on media training and who advocates the legitimacy of waterboarding, police shooting of environmental protesters who trespass, and US gun-nut style firearms availability in the UK;

Lord Woolf, whose "reforms" have destroyed both "legal aid" (as it used to be called) the ethos that lawyers' work should be complete and accurate in favour of brevity at all costs and now proposes to take the administration of "legal aid" under political control to make sure that the poor accused of politically sensitive "crimes" do not get a fair trial.

"Dick" Griffin about whom you all know.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 05:33 PM

Michael Heseltine, who in an excess of self love split the Tory Party. Tony Benn, who in an excess of self love split the Labour Party.
Doctrinaire socialists who still blame Maggie Thatcher for all the ills of the UK, in spite of there having been a Labour [sic] government in office for 10 years.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

The remnants of the Blair government.....they must all be removed regardless of who replaces them

Labour, to be effective, must be a party of opposition.
It must oppose the excesses of Capitalism......In power Labour becomes an enabling agent for the system.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Royston
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 06:59 PM

Bravo, Ake.

No pasaran!

I can't believe I just typed those words. The truth is the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 07:16 PM

And it might be more balanced to include the Brown Government's own Non-Doms, for it does have several.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 07:30 PM

Heseltine was only barely an influence and now (like Portillo) happily is not.

Benn was an excellent influence, a man of conscience, like Foot, but has alas been marginalised by the heritage of greed from the bitch Thatcher.

Thatcher alas created a mindset that still paralyses all tendencies for good and those who cannot or lie that they do not see that are still forces for evil. Long may she and all whom she loved twist in the fires of hell.

We have, in electoral terms a choice of the venal New Labour or the outright evil conservatives. No contest. If and when we have a real electoral choice the Lib Dems might be interesting, save that their current pronunciamentos are made in the heady liberty of abstraction: they will not be faced with any imminent risk of having to deliver.

New Labour or Labour in opposition can achieve nothing, albeit we must not surrender if we are to have hope.

You may wish to condemn Brown (even if he is a clever bastard as his latest manoueverings show) but if you have a choice between him and the Etonians whose only purpose is further to enrich and empower the rich and powerful you can have only one view as a matter of principle. If your misapprehension as to personal benefit leads you to support the Etonians, then unless you are an Etonian you are a quisling. And if you are an Etonian then joint the Eton Rifles for you will need them in your oen defence.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Dead Horse
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 07:32 PM

I dont think there are any that ARE acceptable.
Dear Margaret did a lot to forward the cause of socialism, but Blair threw it all away and made those Tory buggers electable again.
I will never forgive him for that.
As for the third party - what third party?

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 07:40 PM

There is of course what Arthur Scargill would describe as the fourth party. I ahve a great deal of time for him.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Royston
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 08:18 PM

Indeed, Richard. Some blame Scargill for weakening the labour movement by 'splitting' to start the SLP, but the truth is that Scargill et al became the labour movement when others stole the political party away from us and made it something else entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Mar 10 - 09:27 PM

Doctrinaire socialists who still blame Maggie Thatcher for all the ills of the UK, in spite of there having been a Labour [sic] government in office for 10 years.

Sorry- you think there's a contradiction in that sentence?

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 01:11 AM

Richard ~ just in interests of accuracy in OP ~~ Lord ASHTON, surely, not 'Ancram' (& not of course to be confused with worthy old Paddy, ex Lib-Dem leader who a good egg in his way). Inaccuracy alienates people.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 02:41 AM

Ashcroft! Oops all round.

I may also have ascribed too much influence to Woolf as well in laying quite so many attacks on decent legal services at his door.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 03:08 AM

Ratheer than any individual, I'd point the finger at the whipping system, which only a handful on Members (on all sides) have the integrity to withstand.
So I see the recebt changes to take appointment of committee chairs out of their hands as a small but important step
Naturally they will seek (and find) other ways to exert their power, but its a step in the right direction.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 03:20 AM

Greed is the nastiest influence in UK politics, it's a way of life for the Torys and this last lot of MPs of all persuasions just saw Parliament as a means to make themselves rich and fuck the honest people on low wages who can't tax dodge and have to pay for it all.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 03:30 AM

Oops! I meant Ashcroft too; not Ashdown. Sorry. Let's get him right even if a nasty...

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 03:52 AM

Surely the nastiest influences in UK politics are the people currently running the country. Not to want to LABOUR the point.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Royston
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 04:46 AM

You're right, Villan, scandalous bunch of unprincipled muggers. Did you see that "Tower House of Commons" program with the numpty from Hull - a typical example of Labour/Working Class sell-out to Thatcherism in the '80s. Just like Prescott.

This is what, I think, Ake meant by Labour needing to be a party of opposition. Once they are in power it's like Orwell's 'Animal Farm'. At least with the Tories nothing more is promised and there is less disappointment.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 04:52 AM

Villan, you must have a short memory indeed. The purpose of conservatism is to prevent change and to entrench power and privilege. It is what its name means. The present lot, who have hardly a true socialist among them, are babes in arms beside the conservatives when it comes to evil.

But come on, consider the core behaviours of those I have nominated and see who you will propose to stand alongside them?

If you want to list evil "New Labour" people, there are some obvious candidates

The Liars who took us to war again
The willowy and profitable Mandelbaum (yes, MGM, I know his real name)
The career liars like Campbell

But can you put your hand on your heart and say that any of them are as much strangers to good as my nominees?

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 05:06 AM

Personally Richard, all parties are as bad as each other and will bullshit their way to power and will continue bullshitting all through their reign.

I just think it is wrong to blame the conservatives who haven't been in power for over 10 years for the wrongs at the moment. Its a bit like sticking your head in the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 05:09 AM

Well, then, please get his name right, Richard: just coz Mandy happens to be a [later-generation] old boy of my old school, Hendon County; which makes me feel sort of irrationally proprietary & protective, tho have never met him ~ the way one does for some reason. Haven't much else to say for him, mind.

{Why, btw, is that remark addressed specifically to me ~ is it becoz, as someone wrote on another message·board website I am a regular on, "MtheGM's pedantry is legendary"?: meant as a putdown no doubt; but counterproductively so, as you will gather from my quoting it around these parts whenever oppo arises...!}

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:24 AM

One of the most obnoxious people, though I doubt that he has much influenece, is MEP Godfrey Bloom, of the equally obbnoxious UKIP Party. Bloom epitomises this bunch of wasters and spoilers with his racist, sexist and mysanthropic outburts. Even Alan Sked, the on-time founder of UKIP, is appalled by the eway the party has gone and suggests that they should join with the BNP. I have the misfortune live in the same village as Bloom and he is, without doubt, one of the most arrogant and unspeakable people I have ever met.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:38 AM

""Villan, you must have a short memory indeed. The purpose of conservatism is to prevent change and to entrench power and privilege. It is what its name means. The present lot, who have hardly a true socialist among them, are babes in arms beside the conservatives when it comes to evil.""

With the evidence to the contrary staring you right in the face, you still can't see the inherent fallacy of your expressed viewpoint Richard.

Over the last thirteen years (not ten), we have had a government which calls itself labour, and is a complete and total perversion of eveything the labour movement stands for. Look at the achievements (or lack of achievement) of those years, and one simple fact becomes very clear.

There are so many parallels, that the Blair/Brown regime is exposed as being more Thatcherite than Cameron could ever hope to be.

My point is this. Given the change in labour party, to win in 1997, is it really so unbelievable that Cameron and Co may also have changed from the Tories of Thatcher's time.

I know you have this reverse snobbery attitude to Etonians, Richard, but Thatcher was the daughter of a grocer, hardly a member of that group.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influences in UK politics
From: peregrina
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:52 AM

Greed. Marketism. Moral vacuum of overemphasising measureable outcomes rather than intrinsic goods. Overemphasis on target-guided policy and practice.

Emphasis profit-making sector over the 'gift' activities of care for the very young and very old, the arts, creative expression, teaching.

Short-term concern with... re-election/expansion/institutional or party perpetuation rather than the common future of people and the planet.

Compassion seen as a weakness.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 07:19 AM

The nastiest influences in UK politics

Politicians?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 07:23 AM

MGM - the remark was addressed to you because of our mutual cockup about the king of Belize (which happily rhymes with "sleaze").

You really really think, Don, that Cameron will pursue any socially beneficial policies if erected? The Sieg Heil brigade are already and transparently re-planning "Kinder, Kuche, und Kirche" for women.

But back onto track - it's the individual malign self-seekers I'm after spotlighting - and apart from the hasbeen Fettes public schoolboy, the profitable Mandelbaum, and possibly the conversion of the Kinnocks to the pigtrough in Brussels, what has New Labour (or even Old Labour if we discount T Dan Smith) got to compare with the transparent denial of democracy posed by those I named above (including the modern-day vicar of Bray on steroids, Murdoch). They would need duck-houses big enough for a Spruce Goose.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 07:41 AM

I suggest that Richard's hatred & loathing of people who have attended Eton (and,presumably,Harrow,et al)is a reaction to his not having been invited to attend such an establishment himself ??
      His comments about Mrs Thatcher are unnecessary,ungentlemanly,boorish,and in extremely poor taste for someone of his standing. Let us hope that he does not enter the political arena in any capacity.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 08:26 AM

So many appear to have lost their integrity integrity a long time ago sadly. So few politicians actually stand out against the crowd now for good reasons. The two main parties seem so alike they should amalgamate and save some joint expenses. Do any of them have any sense of reality at all about the lives of those on under £20,000 a year and how many have an idea on how to live on less a week than one of them would spend on a single meal out?

They want a relationship with the public. They should know that any realtionship worth having is based on trust. Without trust there is nothing that can be built upon.

Having thought about what is to come my Sunday is quite ruined. Does anyone see hope in the near future for us?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:26 AM

Ratty, my school won the public schools' fives several years on the trot and held the Bisley Cottesloe vase for several years too. Eton and Harrow hold no fears for me, but so many of their output are so damaging to the country. They are taught to think only of themselves and their kind, and that is what they do. It is more that I despise them than hate and loathe them.

Thatcher? Even if she had been male she would never have been a gentleman: a true boor's boor - as prejudiced as a boer, too, with the grace of a boar. Don't you know that even at school she was known as "Bossy Roberts"?

However, I perceive that with the customary stupidity of a conservative, you are unable to address the actual point about the abuse of power to beget power.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:37 AM

I have no recollection before Margaret Thatcher of any political party becoming known for its brand of leader. Was Thatcherism the first time that the political type of the party was changed to the political type of its leader? Thatcherism was a brand of its own it seems that was removed from Conservatism? Some saw the brand as a good thing. Many found to their loss it was not. Where did true socialism go to as well? Who was it's last great evangelist politically?

Has anyone ever had a brand of politics named in this way before or since Margaret Thatcher?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:49 AM

Greed. Marketism. Moral vacuum of overemphasising measureable outcomes rather than intrinsic goods. Overemphasis on target-guided policy and practice.

Emphasis profit-making sector over the 'gift' activities of care for the very young and very old, the arts, creative expression, teaching.

Short-term concern with... re-election/expansion/institutional or party perpetuation rather than the common future of people and the planet.

Compassion seen as a weakness.

Thatcherism in a paragraph (NuLab being 'Thatcherism lite', of course). Thanks Peregrina.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: sapper82
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:10 AM

Interesting how Richard accuses people of having short memories whilst failing to recall what led up to the election of Margarete Thatcher.
The trade union anarchy that was coming close to destroying this country.
The "untouchable" industries of ship building and steel that refused to modernise in the face of foreign competition, soaking up massive subsidies in the process, yet still walked out on strike at the slightest pretext.
The howling savagery of the Grunwick picket line where rent-a-mob activists, using a union recognition dispute concerning a minority of workers from the firm, tried to prevent the rest of the workforce from exercising their right to go to work without intimidation or threats.
The workers who, under the foul abomination of "The Closed Shop" were forced into joining a union as a condition of being allowed to work.
The trade union leaders who were more than happy to declare solidarity with the Workers' Paradises of the USSR and China.

For too long the British Worker has been fooled into believing that the clique of middle and upperclass "Hampstead Thinkers" that constituted the upper heirarchy of the Labour Party actually had their best interests at heart.

I agree Maggie was a long way from being perfect and that she did make mistakes, but most of her actions were necessary.
The reason why they were as painfull as they were is entirely due to the cowardice of previous governments in failing to get to grips with the problems earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: sapper82
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:14 AM

As a further point, Richard, surely the nastiest influence in British Politics was that of those left wing persons, including the late Michael Foot, who looked to the USSR and other communist regimes, for inspiration and financial support?

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:22 AM

The British system provides for a government cabinet in which the prime minister is, at least in theory, first among equals

Over Thatcher's 11 years in power, critics complained that cabinet government became something of a private joke. - there was the wonderful contemporary joke

"The Thatcher cabinet are sitting in a restaurant. The waiter asks Margaret Thatcher for her order and she replies "Raw Meat". The waiter then asks "And for the vegetables?" to which Thatcher replies "Oh, they'll have the same".

Many of the strongest personalities left, driven out by her insistence on personally controlling policy until, in the end, she was left with a cabinet that was far less experienced and
usually reluctant to contradict or challenge her.

Historian Martin Gilbert, author of an eight-volume biography of Churchill.wrote of her
``Both of them (Thatcher and Churchill) also understood that the essence of leadership was to choose a course of action you knew to be the right one and stay with it, and not try to achieve compromise in order to have an easy ride whether in cabinet or Parliament "

Nevertheless, during WW2 Churchill was very much still a part of a wartime cabinet as released documents demonstrate.

There have been many assertions that Thatcher 'destroyed' the cabinet system creating a much more presidential figure.

Blair stepped neatly into these shoes and probably suceeded in putting the final nail into the coffin of 'first amongst equals' whose methods were described by Barbara Castle, a former minister, as

- no minister presented any policy to Cabinet.
Instead, Mr Blair drew up his own version and discussed it with the minister and departmental civil service head.
An agreement would be thrashed out "and then they railroaded it through Cabinet"

With the deliberate destruction of cabinet government so we get Thatcherism, Blairism etc....

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:37 AM

Ive never been a proponent of 'de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est' but I think it is a low blow, not to mention wildly inaccurate, to describe the recently deceased Michael Foot (who received tributes from friends and foes alike of all political colours for his honesty and integrity) as one of the nastiest influences in British Politics.

Just my opinion......

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:44 AM

Ratty, my school won the public schools' fives several years on the trot and held the Bisley Cottesloe vase for several years too.

Ah we played fives at Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School, Barnet.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 10:51 AM

"those left wing persons, including the late Michael Foot, who looked to the USSR and other communist regimes, for inspiration and financial support? "

Sapper, I'd be genuinely interested in seeing your evidence of this. Please quote chapter and verse.

Actually, probably the nastiest thing about politics is the voting system which needs to be reformed to refelect the true will of the majority of British people. And while we're at it, let's have a proper constitution which includes getting rid of the monarchy once and for all and spares us from any more idiocy from that unelected, ignorant and ridiculously expensive Windsor family.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 11:36 AM

I, personally, would love to see proportional representation on the voting books. It seems far more fair and gives less chance to autocracy. The pity of it all being that while we preach democracy to the world the actual cabinet system does indeed seem more autocratic of late. I see nothing wrong with having a strong leader but when they virtually get rid of any opposition to their own closed views we have dangerous precedents being set.

Is autocracy needed in a democracy or is it step closer to the dictatorships that democracy is meant to stop happening?

We keep seeing civil liberties being eroded all the time. That, too, is dangerously close to heading toward a direction many have given their lives to free us from

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:32 PM

""I think it is a low blow, not to mention wildly inaccurate, to describe the recently deceased Michael Foot (who received tributes from friends and foes alike of all political colours for his honesty and integrity) as one of the nastiest influences in British Politics.""

And as a Tory, I heartily concur.

A Labour party with the likes of Clement Attlee, Tony Benn, Michael Foot, John Smith, Bob Marshall-Andrews, and yes Neil Kinnock too at its heart, would at least make me seriously consider voting Labour. These men were genuine socialists.

What have we had instead?

Since I became old enough to vote, Wilson (arch crook), Callaghan (Ineffective bumbler), Blair (empty shell), and Brown (miserable Mr Bean, lurching from crisis to disaster and back again).

Labour (not socialism, because they are not synonyms) has brought this country low at every opportunity since 1964. They devalued our money, and handed sovereignty over to Brussels. At least Maggie, with handbag swinging, won some concessions from the EU, all of which, and more, Blair and Brown handed back.

I feel much the same about ersatz "working class" politicians, as RB does about "Etonian Aristos".

Does anyone really believe that the current mob, on £60,000+ per year, and expecting a rise of £1000, know, or give a shit, about the working classes. They regard us as the gullible twerps who go on voting for them because our fathers did, and I'm not all that sure that they're wrong.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:35 PM

"The nastiest influence in UK politics"

Arrogance
Ignorance
Greed
Corruption
Dishonesty
Selfishness
Lack of Empathy
Lack of Humility
Lack of True Leaders
Lack of Integrity
Lack of Wisdom
Lack of Spirituality
Lack of Concern
Lack of Common Sense
Lack of Joined Up Thinking
Lack of Understanding
Lack of Embarrassment

Lack of real human beings who care more about their country, the people of that country and the people around the globle, than anything else in the universe.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:36 PM

'globle' is a little known independant State, just north of Manchester..

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 12:49 PM

Don't mince your words do you Lizzie? ;-)

However... I think you may have said what a great many, myself included, think these days. It has not always been the same.

I am sure not all MP's are bad or uber-selfish. Nor would I believe it that they all were. But so many seem so totally out of touch now and have done a good job of affirming most of the things you mention above. Any of them that stands up on principles and does not tow the party line soon gets put down.

Loss of trust often comes with betrayal, if in fact you have any trust in the first place that you can grab hold of, and when betrayal happens it has a crushing effect on its victims.

:-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: CET
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 06:58 PM

Well, he doesn't have much influence I suppose, but it's hard to get any nastier than the man who wrote:

"Thatcher alas created a mindset that still paralyses all tendencies for good and those who cannot or lie that they do not see that are still forces for evil. Long may she and all whom she loved twist in the fires of hell."

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 07:33 PM

If only the left had someone with the political accumen and vision of Mrs Thatcher, her "right to buy" scheme was a masterstroke, making full use of left hypocrisy to turn working class Britain, "Conservative" overnight, with the added advantage that all the discount money could be retrieved through the banking and mortgage system.

Of course, the nastiest influence in the UK and the world at large is Capitalism....everyone with more than two conjoined brain cells knows this, the problem has always been what do we replace it with, yet cause the minimum of damage to the huge centres of population constructed by the capitalist system.

Socialism is simply a device to take the rough edges off the present system and could never be seriously regarded as an alternative.
Socialism is really of more value to the leaders of Capitalism
as a "safety valve", than to the dispossesed or the worker ants.

I think perhaps we have regressed to such an extent socially that we have no chance of changing a system built on greed and envy for one based on personal freedom and happiness.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM

Regrettably, having started this thread I shall now have to leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Stu
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:19 AM

"I think perhaps we have regressed to such an extent socially that we have no chance of changing a system built on greed and envy for one based on personal freedom and happiness."

I don't believe this Ake (or in my naivety I choose not too), and I think there is hope for some sort of return to the politics of ideals rather than economics. I think socialism has a role to play in modern society as does capitalism. Capitalism is not an intrinsically bad system but it's utterly incapable of self-regulation and this is where some sort of socialist-based system of government could make a difference. Take the capitalists ability to ride roughshod over everything and everyone in order to turn a profit and force them via legislation to take responsibility for their actions, both at home and abroad.

I'm not talking about Kenynesian economic intervention here, but a step beyond that. The re-nationalisation of the country's infrastructure and the NHS would be a start, and the building of new council houses and the abandonment of the Trident upgrade would also be a priority.

One of the main problems with modern politics is the lack of any intellectuals or deep political thinkers engaged in mainstream political life. Thatcher and the tories balk at the use of the term 'intellectual' even; it doesn't tie in with their boorish world view that money is the god we should all worship. Heck, it's been bandied about on this site enough as an insult and that really does show how dumbed-down we've become. Blair continued with Thatcher's work in this regard, surrounding himself with execrable media wonks like Alistair Campbell and spineless yes-men (and women) instead of people with some sort of sound or original ideological pedigree; the same gutless tossers who were pickpocketing the taxpayers whilst still having the gall to pay lip service to the party's socialist roots.

Cameron on the other hand, is being seen for what is. Bereft of any policies at all, playing constantly to the (press) gallery and struggling to hide the class prejudice that runs through the party like letters through rock it seems like the rest of the country might have cottoned on to the fact the Emperor is in the nip. Surrounded by his raffish buddies (with the exception of Eric Pickles, the rank outsider left in the team to fool that most gullible of buffoons, the working-class tory that they give a shit), Cameron can feel the proles and plebs slipping away from him as people realise that even though Gordon comes across as a bit media-unsavvy it might be better the devil you know rather than handing over the country to the toffs and supercilious, elitist whelps that make up the shadow cabinet.

We need original thinkers back in politics; both sides are in danger of sliding into an American-style political morass of commercial-led decisions taking precedence over the well-being of their citizens. Perhaps we're already there, if so it would be a sad betrayal of all the radicals and reformists that have gone before us and made our collective political heritage the treasure-house of wisdom through struggle it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:48 AM

What theleveller said, supra. I agree with every word Richard Bridge has written.

Problem is, I am effectively disenfranchised. IMO you couldn't put a ciggie paper between Cameron and Brown.

In the UK since Thatcher got into power (and for all I know, long before then), you can vote for so-called "left-wing" conservatism, under the nom de jeu New Labour ; or you can vote for so-called "right wing Conservatism",

headed by Cameron.

(Oh, before I am taken to task, the juxtaposition of the closing quotation marks is deliberate).

As to someone's comments above on Grunwick, I was on the picket line - were you ? Mrs Desai is a working class hero. When she spoke at an antiNF rally in Manchester many years ago, Tom Jackson and some of his

big lads were there to protect her.

I look at New Labour, and the only satisfaction I can get is in the knowledge that it is not the party which I fought, and literally bled, for. I am, alas, too old for 'lumps' these days.

Stick around, please, Richard - your country needs you. Don't hand the fascist twits an easy victory.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:08 AM

""Of course, the nastiest influence in the UK and the world at large is Capitalism""

I agree with most of the rest of your comments Ake, and if you could stand to change one word we would agree on this also.

You see, I really believe that it is not Capitalism per se, but its big brother "Corporatism" which you are really talking about.

Your local farmer, Undertaker, and taxi driver, are all Capitalists in the sense that they operate their own business,and control the means to do so.

It is the amalgamation of small business into these giant conglomerates which gives rise to the kind of soulless, uncaring,greed, which we both abhor.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM

""In the UK since Thatcher got into power (and for all I know, long before then), you can vote for so-called "left-wing" conservatism, under the nom de jeu New Labour ; or you can vote for so-called "right wing Conservatism",

headed by Cameron.""

As an expression of ignorance of the situation, this is a classic.

By no stretch of the imagination can Cameron be called a "right wing Tory".

The right wing hate the sight of him, purely because he has moved the party so far from the Thatcher ideals.

But he has the clout, and they've had to wind their necks in. I should have thought that some might have noticed his immediate reaction to the expenses scandal.

"Pay back or you don't stand for election as a Tory candidate". Stated on the day of the revelations.

When did Brown follow suit?.....Well, never, actually.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:08 AM

Well, Don T, if I am in "ignorance of the situation"

(Ipssissima verba)

perhaps you will kindly enlighten me ?

This is a genuine request, not a snide side swipe.

You see, I neglected to interpolate "IMO" after "Thatcher got into power".

Subject: RE: BS: The nastiest influence in UK politics
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:35 AM

That meddling oaf, Charlie Windsor, is a pretty nasty influence in politics. Baroness Quin, a former New Labour euro MP and member of the Privy Council, has called his interference potentially "unconstitutional" in her new book The British Constitution, Continuity and Change – an Inside View. She also says he is unfit to be king. I'd go further and say that the monarchy has no place in Britain in this day and age.