Tech: Powered satellite speaker

Subject: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: GUEST,herge
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:22 AM

Hi
We have a BOSE L1 model 2 and have noticed in long venues it does not project volume to the back of the hall, especially if the bar is at the back and dancers are between us and rear of hall. We are considering a small powered speaker to set up mid way down hall as necessary - any recommendations - maybe something with built in phase or time corrections.

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: mandotim
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:34 AM

Another Bose would be the easiest method, but not cheap. They do a cheaper 'compact' version that you could run off the output of your Tonematch mixer (do you have one?) and the necessary delays could be done from there. Failing that, any reasonable full-range powered speakers would do the job. Mackie, JBL and so on are good, with lots of cheaper options around. I use a DBX driverack to do delay stuff, and that works very well.
Tim

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: GUEST,Ken
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:45 AM

Hello,
Question, How long is a "long venue", I ask from the perspective of someone considering the Bose L1 for a 3 piece rock covers band.
Does the Bose sound fall off more slowly, enough to make a noticeable difference?
They [Bose] say that the L1 would have 10 times more power than a traditional speaker at 10 meters, if the both produced the same SPL at the source. That being said, do you think a traditional speaker capable of 2500watts((power x10)for mids and hi's)would reach the back of the hall? I understand B1 bass modules have the same fall off as any other sub.
Bose indirectly tout that there system will produce volume and coverage equivalent to traditional systems many times it size and power, do you find this to be true?
p.s. sorry to get off topic

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: treewind
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:53 AM

You do need a time delay box, and you need to set it up carefully. You can probably get away with a smaller speaker than your main FOH: it usually won't need so much power or so much bass; it's clarity you are after.

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: mandotim
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:27 AM

Guest Ken; I use the Bose system, using either one or two L1 Mk1 systems. I've used the Mk2, and it isn't as powerful as the Mk1, with less 'throw' for long venues. That said, the clarity at long distance is amazing. I use three subs with the two poles though; the bass does fall off quicker than the top. The Bose system really does do what it says; I played an outdoor gig doing background music for a charity run at a football stadium, and you could hear every word of the songs at the other side of the stadium. For bigger gigs (say 2 or 3 hundred people) I find you have to turn the Bose up really loud, and that gets uncomfortable for the musicians if you use the system as Bose recommend, i.e. behind the players. I usually put the system in front for these gigs, and use TC Helicon personal monitors. For anything bigger than that, it's Mackie time, with a pair of SA1232z's, at least 2k of sub power and the Bose rig as side fill monitors.
Agree with Treewind; a time delay box of some sort is a must if you are using satellite speakers down the hall.
Tim

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: GUEST,Herge
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:41 PM

I asked this question on the BOSE user forum - the expert stated:
That's a great question; every room provides a different challenge and a new opportunity to learn more about acoustics. From what you've explained, it sounds that the dancers might be absorbing the sound that is trying to get to the back of the room. I personally try to avoid using a satellite speaker due to phasing and delay issues. If you feel this is the only way to get sound to the end, try to have someone at the back at the room during sound check to listen and adjust for delay or phasing issues.

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: bruceCMR
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:57 PM

There is no such thing as speakers with "good throw" :-)

Volume will attenuate at the same rate (inverse square) no matter what the speaker. Some speakers, of course, are more directional, but that's not the same thing.

Often the best thing to improve the coverage at the back is to get the speakers up high - well above the audience's heads, and facing slightly downwards. That way the sound isn't absorbed by the audience as much, you're not losing half your power up to the roof, and you don't have to worry about delays. Of course, adding height isn't very practical with the L1...

If you do add smaller relays further back in the room, it often causes more problems than it solves. Cabling is a pain. You'll need to add delay, and although that sounds simple in theory, it may give problems in practice - the optimum delay can be easily calculated - 1ms for every foot between the front and delay speakers - but in practice the formula is only right for one location in the room. In an echoy room (in particular if there's slapback echo off the back wall) you could easily make things worse.

But go ahead and try it - get a delay line, measure the distance between front and delay speakers in feet, dial in that delay in millisecond. Then add on 10 milliseconds for the "haas effect" - a bit of psychoacoustics - the extra 10ms delay means that the audience at the back will hear the quiet sound from the front speakers before the louder sound from the delays - the overall effect is that the brain is fooled, and the sound "appears" to have come from the front rather than the speakers at the side!

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:19 PM

Don't make trouble for yourself!

Unless you're aiming for sound reinforcement where the levels are low and the audience is very attentive, it's often better to dispense with delays completely, and put your 'relay' speakers ten to fifteen metres down the room. The idea is to keep the air moving in one direction.

As Bruce said, getting them above head height is quite critical.

We used to do the main arena sound at Shrewsbury Flower Show, and we had a row of seven columns of four Bose 802s along the front, with JBL 4852s on scaffold towers around 100 feet into the audience (10,000 people at peak). As it was in the open air, setting the delays for the towers was fairly simple because there was no slapback, but it would have sounded dire without delays.

We used microwave links to feed the signal to the delay towers, so the only cabling needed was mains, courtesy of Manweb.

If you must use a delay, a cheap way of doing it (but effective) is the Behringer 'Shark'. Yes, it's singe channel (mono), but you should be running the system mono anyway... and if you don't know why, think about it!

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: mandotim
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 07:21 PM

Sorry Bruce; I meant directionality when I referred to 'throw'. Do you use an L1? If so, you'll be aware of the combination of wide dispersion speakers and highly directional ones in each pole, plus the low amount of sound lost in the vertical plane. This combination does result in more useable sound, even allowing for the inverse square law. The system has 'built in' height for middle and top frequencies due to the height of the poles themselves, but it's a good idea to raise the bass bins up if possible.
Thanks for the bit about the Haas effect; I'll give that a try.

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: GUEST,Herge
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:40 AM

We could try putting the L1 onto one of our flight cases which would give us an extra 2". We quite often play venues with no stage - so speakers are on ground level.

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: mandotim
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:27 AM

Just another thought; with 'normal' speakers, you get a fair amount of reflection off the ceiling, which can help get sound to the back. The Bose L1 has a 'flattened' output that is intended to reduce this to a minimum, and this makes the height issue even more important. I'd be looking to get the middle of the bose stack to around head height where possible for a 'long' venue.
Tim

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: bruceCMR
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:37 AM

The wide dispersion of the L1 may actually make it a bad choice for a delay - delays work best with fairly directional speakers - where you can accurately target "puddles" of audio. If something like the L1 were used as a delay, the amount of (delayed) audio that it would send "back" towards the stage could make the audiability worse for the audience near the front.

The first time I tried using the haas effect, I was amazed by the difference it made - but that was for speech...


Raising the L1 may help audiability at the back. At the same time, you may lose bass...

Give it a try!

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:06 AM

Having had a little Stage experience, I am puzzled by the 'need' for delays - in very precise setups in specially designed rooms which seriously control reflected sound by absorbing it in a controlled manner so that 'extra push' can be calculated with some degree of sanity, it may do some good, but in the average 'country hall' with reflective surface walls and ceilings (in Aus they would be painted fibro/masonite, and or perhaps walls made of VJ timber boards), I can only imagine a nightmare, and adding 'delays' would make it worse over most of the room, surely...

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 03:47 AM

... Also consider this from an audience point of view...

Many would be quite happy if the stage sound was actually confined
to the front half of the venue where it's plenty loud enough
for those enthusiastic to enjoy listening and dancing up close to the band.
Others would appreciate being able to sit at the back near the bar
able to converse with friends
without having to shout and strain to hear
over intrusive mid-to-rear room positioned satellite speakers.

Although we are a punkfolk band, we try to gig with as minimal gear as possible,
and at the lowest volume levels we can get away with.
Its our personal positive choice for both transport cost & health and safety reasons.
My tinnitus is bad enough, and i wouldn't want to risk inflicting the same misery on anyone else.

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: GUEST,Herge
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 12:10 PM

Yes - good point - we have not had complaints. Will try adding height.

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:08 PM

Well said PFR....

Having had a long running battle with a 'pseudo-christian' organisation running a 'pseudo-gospel-music' show who insist using about 10 million watts aimed HORIZONTALLY ABOVE the heads of the several thousand audience in the park nearby. Somehow though, I fail to understand how projecting the sound af a female 'orgasming for Jesus' for a weekend at about 130dB for miles around onto unwilling residents, furthers any cause, especially any musical related one...


:-P


:-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Powered satellite speaker
From: mandotim
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:25 AM

Hear hear PFR! For me the whole point of having a gazillion watt rig is so you can turn it down and make it sound sweet. The point about a 'conversation area' is well made too. It's a fine balance. One trick I use when musicians ask for more volume is to leave plenty of headroom in the monitors, and just turn up those. The musicians don't know any different. When the audience ask for more volume, I do what I can, but keep an spl meter handy (there's a free one for the iphone these days) to show when we are getting to damaging levels.