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BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia

Goose Gander 08 Mar 10 - 03:58 PM
gnu 08 Mar 10 - 04:17 PM
SINSULL 08 Mar 10 - 04:57 PM
beardedbruce 08 Mar 10 - 05:02 PM
Little Hawk 08 Mar 10 - 05:30 PM
SINSULL 09 Mar 10 - 09:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Mar 10 - 11:35 AM
Goose Gander 09 Mar 10 - 12:06 PM
Paul Burke 09 Mar 10 - 01:21 PM
Wolfgang 09 Mar 10 - 01:33 PM
Goose Gander 09 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM
Goose Gander 09 Mar 10 - 01:50 PM
Paul Burke 09 Mar 10 - 02:19 PM
Goose Gander 09 Mar 10 - 02:57 PM
CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 03:21 PM
Emma B 09 Mar 10 - 04:04 PM
Goose Gander 09 Mar 10 - 04:50 PM
SINSULL 09 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM
Emma B 09 Mar 10 - 05:37 PM
Ebbie 10 Mar 10 - 10:56 AM
Paul Burke 10 Mar 10 - 01:38 PM
Goose Gander 10 Mar 10 - 08:03 PM
Paul Burke 14 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM
bubblyrat 15 Mar 10 - 12:52 PM
fretless 15 Mar 10 - 01:12 PM
Goose Gander 15 Mar 10 - 05:34 PM
Goose Gander 04 May 11 - 02:24 PM
gnu 04 May 11 - 02:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 May 11 - 03:31 PM
Richard Bridge 04 May 11 - 05:00 PM

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Subject: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 03:58 PM

"Sex-selective abortion, infanticide, and death from health and nutritional neglect in Asia have left 96 million missing women... and the numbers seem to be increasing in absolute terms."

96 million missing women in Asia . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: gnu
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 04:17 PM

Unreal.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 04:57 PM

Kidnapping of infant girls in China is on the rise. Families raise them as brides for their sons. The lack of brides is a threat to the stability of the country - young men expect to marry. Poor young men won't be able to compete for a wife. Discontent leads to revolution.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:02 PM

Or war.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 05:30 PM

What unbelievable stupidity.

I am reminded of the old American Indian saying: "A nation is not dead until the hearts of its women are on the ground."

And I believe that too.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:37 AM

The problem in China was exacerbated by the introduction of portable sonograms. Women in outer regions could get better prenatal care but it didn't take them long to figure out that they could tell if their fetus was male or female. Since they are limited to one child and a male child will support his parents in their old age, females are aborted.
I wonder if the scarcity of eligible women for marriage will in fact increase their value and improve their lives in general. An unhappy wife may be more likely to be allowed to leave an abusive relationship if there are many men looking to replace the husband.
A while back I read an article that claimed that many Chinese women were postponing marriage in order to build a career and financial independence. In addition, with children migratiting to the cities for jobs, the tradition of caring for the elderly is disappearing. A lot of change in addition to tremendous manufacturing and financial growth.
It will be interestint to watch. The Old Guard is still firmly entrenched. Can they change to suit their new world?


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Subject: 96 Million Women missing from Asia
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:35 AM

Spot the difference between the heading of this thread:
"96 Million Missing Women in Asia"

And the title of the original story:
"Asia 'missing' 96 million women: UN"

The first seems to say that these 96 million missing women are in Africa, but doesn't say where they are missing from.

The second tells us where they are missing from, but doesn't tell us where they are. This is the true meaning of "missing".


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 12:06 PM

Again, from the article, "Sex-selective abortion, infanticide, and death from health and nutritional neglect in Asia have left 96 million missing women... and the numbers seem to be increasing in absolute terms."

What is your point, Nigel?

I'll assume that 'Africa' was a typo


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:21 PM

The point is, in the end, that either they will suffer from running short of women, or that they will adapt culturally to value female children more. Either way, natural selection will sort it out in the end.

What would you propose to do about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:33 PM

Forbid prenatal sex determination could help.

BTW, a remotely similar tendency can be seen in European and North American birth dates: The time difference between a female child and the next child is significantly (in a statistical sense) smaller than the time difference after a male child.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM

Incredibley blase attitude, Paul. I would sum up your reaction as manevolent indifference. "Either way, natural selection will sort it out in the end." - Is that your attitude toward Haiti, AIDS, famine, etc. as well?

What do I propose to do about it? Well, acknowledging the problem would be a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:50 PM

Correction, call that incredibly blasé; and malevolent indifference. My sentiments remain the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:19 PM

You're wrong, GG, and you are jumping to conclusions: of course it matters. But you're not going to charge in and change three thousand years of cultural prejudice, and any attempt at intervention will probably only lead to conflict in which loss of life by selective birth control is replaced by loss of life by bullets and bombs.

Whereas AIDS is a medical AND cultural problem, and famine and Haiti are economic ones.

Yes, taking action to empower women is very important, but so is recognising that dysfunctional societies eventually lead to their own downfall (or adaptation); witness the Mongol hordes, and our own likely demise by surfeit.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:57 PM

" . . . any attempt at intervention will probably only lead to conflict in which loss of life by selective birth control is replaced by loss of life by bullets and bombs."

Good grief, talk about jumping to conclusions? ANY attempt at intervention? Who the fuck is talking about "bullets and bombs"? Certainly not me, nor anything else who has commented on this thread. This is about addressing a problem, one that involves more than simply selective abortion (as awful as that is) but also female infanticide (MURDER for the linquistically challenged), as well as unequal access to healthcare and nutrition (both "a medical AND a cultural problem," to use your words).

I wonder if the abolitionist movement would have gotten anywhere if those involved had fretted over the advisability of "charging in" and 'changing thousands of years of cultural practice'?

I recall that you started a thread, with justifiably outrage, dealing with the attempt by certain groups to make homosexuality a capital crime in Uganda. And now it seems you are willing to view the mass murder of females in Asia as simply a 'cultural practice' that will have to be settled by 'natural selection'. Priceless.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:21 PM

Maybe this will help them as a society to learn to value women for once.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:04 PM

If I remember correctly the situation in Uganda was, at the least, promoted by direct intervention from influential outside agencies - ie American fundamentalists

However, as Paul points out

"The phenomenon of female infanticide is as old as many cultures, and has likely accounted for millions of gender-selective deaths throughout history.

It remains a critical concern in a number of "Third World" countries today, notably the two most populous countries on earth, China and India.

In all cases, specifically female infanticide reflects the low status accorded to women in most parts of the world; it is arguably the most brutal and destructive manifestation of the anti-female bias that pervades "patriarchal" societies.
It is closely linked to the phenomena of sex-selective abortion, which targets female fetuses almost exclusively, and neglect of girl children."

The bias against females in India is related to the fact that "Sons are called upon to provide the income; they are the ones who do most of the work in the fields. In this way sons are looked to as a type of insurance.
With this perspective, it becomes clearer that the high value given to males decreases the value given to females." (Marina Porras, "Female Infanticide and Foeticide".)

The problem is also intimately tied to the institution of dowry, in which the family of a prospective bride must pay enormous sums of money to the family in which the woman will live after marriage. Though formally outlawed, the institution is still described as 'pervasive'.

Some Indian state governments have taken measures to diminish the slaughter of infant girls and abortions of female fetuses

"The leaders of Tamil Nadu are holding out a tempting carrot to couples in the state with one or two daughters and no sons: if one parent undergoes sterilization, the government will give the family [U.S.] \\$160 in aid per child. The money will be paid in instalments as the girl goes through school. She will also get a small gold ring and on her 20th birthday, a lump sum of $650 to serve as her dowry or defray the expenses of higher education. Four thousand families enrolled in the first year," with 6,000 to 8,000 expected to join annually (as of 1994) (Dahlburg, "Where killing baby girls 'is no big sin'.")

To echo Paul's query .......

What would you propose to do about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:50 PM

Et tu, Emma? Pity that some American wack-jobs aren't busy promoting female infanticide, then perhaps the Paul Burkes of the world could be roused to action.

What would I do about it? First and foremost, talk about it, get angry about it, DO NOT accept it as a 'cultural practice' that will be solved by 'natural selection'. I referenced the abolitionist movement. That would be a good model. Moral persuasion, combined with economic muscle, can and does work.

Finally, I do not buy the (implied?) suggestion that the Uganda situation is more horrific because of "direct intervention from influential outside agencies." Would the proposed Uganda law be acceptable if it was entirely self-directed by Ugandans? Because homosexuality is proscribed by law in a number of countries. It would be unfortunate if this is only an issue when American evangelists are involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:53 PM

So GG, other than opening a thread on Mudcat what are you doing about the problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:37 PM

GG I'm 'angry' about all treatment of women as inferiors (read some of my posts here!) but I 'recognize' that three thousand years of cultural practice is not gong to be overcome overnight by a feminist like myself merely expressing that anger on a music forum.

Change in these countries has to come from within in the same way that the abolitionist movement gained ground in the UK and America.

In fact there are genuine if desperately 'gradual' attempts to change ancient practices from within as I mentioned in my post

Maybe 'economic/social' sanctions have brought about some change in other situations but for countries the size of China and India, who are major global producers, this does not seem to be an option so back to my (and Paul's) query

apart from direct 'police' action

What would you propose to do about it?

Personally I believe that the banning of prenatal sex identification by ultrasound and other diagnostic methods could reduce abortions of female fetuses but it's not easy to put the technology genie back in the bottle but, as this is a discussion - what are your 'solutions' - as you raised the issue

How do you impliment your 'moral persuasion'?


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:56 AM

I suspect a good deal of this comes down to the issue of abortion. Infanticide, of course, is a separate issue, but if abortion is considered murder then I can see that it is a grave (no pun intended) matter indeed.

In my opinion, if only abortion were used to instate the results they wanted I don't really see the gravity as to method used.

Of course, I also agree that imbalancing the sexes is short sighted and just plain dumb. In other words, What were they thinking?


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:38 PM

Silly person. Things we could do, and that won't be done for other reasons:

(1) Make asylum applications easier for women from affected cultures. Do this for immigrants ("economic migrants") from Haiti too, since we're agreed that action is needed there.

(2) Encourage welfare benefits in affected countries. Much of the over- valuation of male offspring comes from the (probably correct) perception that they'll be better earners, and so a better insurance against poverty. They need welfare benefits in Haiti too.

(3) Make unselective birth control easier to get, especially condoms, which also protect against AIDS and the woman can SEE being used, and encourage widespread knowledge of techniques.

(4) Laugh at the bad cultures, make them feel inferior, which of course they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:03 PM

What am I going to do about? I don't know, I just thought we should be talking about it, at least. With all the pointless threads on this site, and all the vitriol and venom thrown around, I thought at least some passion could be mustered up on this topic. I will admit I did not expect to get trounced on for simply bringing it up.

"Silly person."

Go fuck yourself, Paul Burke


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

Deep apologies are due from me. I never intended to sink this thread on an important topic; and as the Boy pointed out, my initial post was wrong. Natural selection doesn't sort anything out, it just does whatever natural selection does. And that isn't necessarily comfortable for decent humans.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:52 PM

I don't know what country you live in,"Goose Gander", but how would you like it if a load of Chinese people started to disagree with how YOUR country does things,and started to try and whip up some kind of emotional frenzy against YOU ?? Just because YOU perceive that something isn't "proper",doesn't give you the inalienable right to try and change it (which you won't !!). The Chinese,as a race,will die out soon enough, IF your assertions are correct. I say IF.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: fretless
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:12 PM

Sinsull wrote "I wonder if the scarcity of eligible women for marriage will in fact increase their value and improve their lives in general."

Not historically as far as I know. The more common response in societies where female infanticide results in reduced numbers of adult females has been an increase in prostitution, which of course makes the overall situation for women only worse.

BBC reporter Emily Buchanan reported extensivley on the global "missing women" phenomenon at least a decade ago, and she addressed it again in the book she wrote about her experience in adopting two girls from China, "From China With Love."

Buchanan's work made clear that the missing demographic cadre is a result of multiple actions: selective abortions, infanticide, and differential treatment (including nourishment and acess to medical care and education) offered to boys and girls. Underlying all of this, of course, are cultural values, which are not likely to change quickly.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:34 PM

I live in the US, and lots of people are angry at my country, for some very valid reasons, mainly involving foreign policy. Sorry, I do not buy into your assumptions that the Chinese "as a race" (and what the hell is a 'race'? - from a scientific point of view the word is meaningless) should be immune from criticism any more than any other country. Anyway, this is much bigger than simply China.

"Just because YOU perceive that something isn't "proper",doesn't give you the inalienable right to try and change it . . ."

I have just as much right as anyone else to speak out against something I see as abhorrent. Yes, I believe the mass murder of women isn't "proper" - sorry if that chaffs your hide.

Paul, I owe both you and Emma an apology for jumping down your throats. Thank you for returning to this discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Goose Gander
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:24 PM

Well, some of you don't want to hear about it, but this is important . . .

Despite Rapid Growth, India Lets Its Girls Die


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: gnu
Date: 04 May 11 - 02:33 PM

Ditto my first post... unreal.


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 May 11 - 03:31 PM

Nothing new here-

"Missing Women of Asia"
""The phenomen of the missing women of Asia is a shortfall in the number of women in Asia relative to the number that would be expected if there was no sex-selective abortion or female infanticide or if the newborn of both sexes received similar levels of health care and nutrition."
The news" report is based on economist Amartya Sen, essay in NY Times Review of Books, 1990, and several other articles in peer-reviewed journals.

The selective process is well-known in history, and undoubtedly goes far back in pre-history. Not confined to Asia or to current times. I remember reading in grade school history about Spartans throwing unwanted females over a cliff.

The percentages vary, mostly according to food availability, but new abortion methods have changed them locally- China, e. g.

A turnaround, a decrease, is currently underway- several references on this, one being:
Das Gupta, Monica; Chung; Shuzho, 2009, Is There an Incipient Turnaround in Asia's "Missing Girl" Phenomenon?"

Laudably. China tries to decrease population growth by limiting families to one child. Abortion is well-accepted (it is not illegal in Canada-U. S. or major European non-Catholic countries).
One problem in China with the program is that now there are too few children to take care of an aging population and the state must pay for their care.

A decent article, with references, in Wikipedia-
"Missing Women of Asia."


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Subject: RE: BS: 96 Million Missing Women in Asia
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 May 11 - 05:00 PM

Probably makes it harder for a bloke to get his rocks off, too.


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