Risk Assessment for folk band

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:59 PM

Paco your view is very simplistic. Just a couple of small points, it is not the HSE who look after health and safety in pubs etc and health and safety is not a political issue any way. Any party worth its salt will insist that health and safety of voters and their families is given the importance it warrants.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:41 PM

The answer is simple. At the next election vote for ANYTHING but Labour and the HSE wankers will be dissolved.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Tootler
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM

Bubblyrat, you clearly still have a cavalier attitude to safety as evidenced by the ridiculous and trivial things you say.

I trust that behind that you take proper care that your PA and amp equipment is properly and safely set up as PA equipment has been the cause of a number of accidents in the past and if you do not take due care and there is an accident with yours you will be for trouble. Don't doubt it.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:16 AM

As a side issue, another of my musical hats is worn as part of the band of The Powderkegs, a border morris side partial to dancing with very large sticks and clashing them together with extreme vigour.

We were asked to submit a risk assessment for dancing at a visitors centre, and duly submitted a document detailing the precautions we took, our H&S policy, and the fact that when all was said and done we were a border morris side partial to dancing with very large sticks and clashing them together with extreme vigour.

We heard no more, did the gig, and went down very well - we're back at the same venue in a few weeks time and haven't been asked for an RA this time :)

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: alex s
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 06:17 AM

Thanks to your invaluable contributions I have submitted my RA, which was accepted with awe, and am confident that the gig will now go like a dream............
cheers, m'deres

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: bubblyrat
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 05:50 AM

Well, we're off to play a "gig" for Paddy's Day in a pub tomorrow,and I am ashamed to say that we have NOT done a Risk Assessment (neither ,I suspect,has Eammon Hanlon,the landlord,but then he's Irish !).
       We will almost certainly be exposed to any number of risks and dangers,including alcohol ( cirrhosis,hypertension,peripheral neuritis,et al) ,a free lunch ( food poisoning,flatulence,appendicitis) going to the loo (slippery floors,falling,infection from bog-seat,punch-up),PA and "Amp" equipment ( electrocution,tripping on leads,banging heads / teeth on Mics) playing sensitive and possibly emotion-provoking intensely nationalistic music and songs ( disagreements,arguments,religious conflict,inebriation,punch-ups) ---In fact,I'm DREADING it !!!

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: GUEST,Les Sullivan
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 05:26 AM

There is some good advice here (UK based) I have certainly met a few box tickers myself..........Treewind I like the Fendragon statement can I lift some of it for my own HSE statement please? ......thanks Les

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 05:11 AM

I totally agree with you Tootler, there seemed to be no thought to safety by the Royal Navy. The Fire Hazard was one of the important factors that came out of the Falklands war.
In the Construction Industry most new buildings and renovations are managed by a Main Contractor who is responsible for the safety aspects of work throughout the building. Each minor contractor (we were one) were asked for Risk Assessments, these are to highlight the possible risk and dangers that may be present during the work going on in the building. From these Risk Assessments the Main Contractor can take the necessary action to prevent accidents in certain aspects of the work and plan the work accordingly. The Risks highlighted may not be known to the Main Contractor and once known can be acted upon.All equipment and Electrical equipment had to be to British Safety Standards,all scaffolding ,including towers could not be constructed unless by approved persons. All workers had to wear hard hats, high viz jackets and safety boots, if you didn't you were thrown off site.
Lots of paperwork but safety was the reasons behind it.
Al

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 07:37 PM

Health and Safety is important.
Risk assessments , without doubt, help to reduce accidents.
Remember the whole idea is to reduce risk to a reasonable level.It sounds as, according to Bubblyrat the Royal Navy got it drastically wrong in the 60's, or did they reduce the risk to a reasonable level, depends on the interpretation of the word reasonable!!!
It is not unreasonable to expect that everyone considers the dangers to other people as a result of their own actions.
The vast majority of health and safety is common sense.
Unfortunatly some consider it bureucratic, I agree some authorities tend to over complicate the requirements of risk assessment, however, a thought for others is rather important.
Keep it simple and practical is all that is required.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Tootler
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:55 PM

Bubblyrat,

Reading through your post gives me the impression that the Royal Navy had a distinctly cavalier attitude to safety on board their aircraft carriers, one that would not have been tolerated in much of civilian life.

I worked in the chemical industry for a few years and 140 fatal accidents in a year on a major chemical works would have certainly brought the factory inspectorate into the works asking a lot of very awkward questions.

Safety is not about being namby pamby, it is about trying to identify what potentially could go wrong and then working in a way that minimises as far as is practical the risk of it actually going wrong.

How many of those fatal accidents that you referred to could have been avoided with a proper risk management system? I suspect a significant proportion.

I do agree that the system has become unduly bureaucratic in recent years and there is a strong element of risk avoidance, rather than risk management in some quarters. It is just too easy to say you can't do something rather than assessing the potential hazards and dealing with them so that people can carry out the the activity in as safe a manner as possible.

Rant over, I do think there are some sensible suggestions in this thread. The important thing is to identify potential hazards, say how you are going to deal with them and keep it as brief as is reasonable.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Alan Day
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:54 PM

It does seem a great shame the way things are going,that before you took the organiser aside ,gave him a friendly chat about how to lay out the room, a few things regards safety,organise a three pin socket, what time do we start and what time do we finish and shake hands and take the cheque or cash at the end of the evening.
If someone got hurt ,so what, life is full of risks, nobody sued, nobody looked to blame anyone.Organisers are terrified now of legal action and slowly it will put people off organising anything.We will finish up sitting in doors watching the telly, providing the Television Companies are not in court.

Are you a risk then Dan? Good luck
Al

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 03:55 PM

In the states, Barry Louis Polisar (primarily known as a hcildren's performer, but also the guy who did the theme song to Juno) has a warning label on his CDs - CAUTION: LISTENING TO THIS MUSIC MAY CAUSE THE DEVELOPMENT OF A SENSE OF HUMOR."

Seems to me a risk assessment by the band is reasonable if you're planning to use pyrotechnics or anything like that. For folk bands, it seems overkill, but then, I'm in the states where there is less of a regular audience for this sort of thing.

If anyone wants to book me in the UK, I'll happily fill out a risk assessment! :)

Dan

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 03:40 PM

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: melodeonboy - PM
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:52 AM

I've heard a rumour that folk bands are additionally required to complete the supplementary risk form, TRAD1, in triplicate. This form covers specific folk-related risks such as:

Tangling beard in guitar/mandolin strings

Catching beer gut in melodeon bellows

Tripping over tankard on way to bar

Tinnitus due to over-exposure to Morris bells

:)

dont forget:

Contracting anthrax through beating a non-irradiated bodhran ...

I'm with bubblyrat, kids today they don't know they're alive. When I were a youngster, we used to swing from electric pylons, swim in cesspools and bungee jump down t'local mineshaft. Did it do us any harm ? Did it heck as like ...

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Alan Day
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 05:59 PM

In this discussion the organisers "passing the buck" was raised a number of times and provided your Risk Assessment Documentation /Safety policy is worded carefully there is no way any buck can be passed to the band, visa versa in fact .As Dennis states it is up to the band to work with the organisers and in their experience point out some of the hazards associated with our dances.
Many dances in barns for example use straw bales as seats. They used to light up cigarettes whilst sitting on them in the past.
A few musicians have been electrocuted on stage. I would like a pound for the number of times on stage I have been standing in a puddle of beer. Electrical safety is a vital requirement, if you consider the conditions unsafe on arrival to a gig ,refuse to use the PA.
Young children running about should be controlled (I forgot this one in my list). A lovely polished floor for children is great fun if they find out that if they run at speed and sit down they can slide the whole length of the floor on their bottom.The fact that they slide between dancers legs is not even considered as dangerous by their parents.
Most accidents are caused by carelessness or faulty equipment.
I have always been totally untrusting of Insurance Companies and if an accident was caused by your electrical equipment being faulty and untested they will walk away from it.
We have to put up with a lot for the love of our music and the joy of people loving our dances, In return we have to put up with barns, that once dancers dance, fills the barn with dust, insect bites, noise complaints, speed of music complaints, screaming kids, dancers who never dance.
Great fun though.
Al

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:46 AM

I remember only too well a Barn Dance we played at for a rugby club. An ambulance was called for twice in the evening. Once where an arch was made along the length by the dancers who when reaching the end the top couple would duck and then reach over the couples making arches. At this exact point an idiot decided to run up the arch the wrong way. He head butted the poor guy who bent down to go through the first arch. This knocked both of them out cold and an ambulance was called to take them away. The second was where two couples were circling which as you know normally lifts the ladies feet off the ground if done too vigorously. These ladies however were being spun so fast they were at the horizontal. At which point a poor young lady walking by was caught across the face by the stiletto heel of one of the dancers twirling round, that was the second ambulance. We got a standing ovation at the end but the decision was that it would be the last rugby club do we would play at again.
Al

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:50 AM

Lots of good advice here - I know I'll certainly be reviewing the standard documentation we send out to include a few of the tips picked up here. Thanks Anahata & Alan in particular.

Anahata said

I was thinking of one in particular, an encounter that provoked me into putting the boot on the other foot and starting a much more pro-active policy about testing, insurance, documentation, contracts and general professionalism on our side.

Same with me: and it was also that same encounter for me that made me first adopt my policy that there's a certain level of interference and red-taping that make you just walk away from the gig, and let someone else spend the entire evening being told how to do things :) Only done it once, but boy did it feel good, and the band we passed the gig onto (with due warning) were ready to use their instruments as bludgeons by the end of the night!

Mind you of course I don't rely on gigs for my income, so there must be a greater need for tolerance of such eejits if turning down a gig means the dog doesn't get fed that night ...

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: melodeonboy
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:52 AM

I've heard a rumour that folk bands are additionally required to complete the supplementary risk form, TRAD1, in triplicate. This form covers specific folk-related risks such as:

Tangling beard in guitar/mandolin strings

Catching beer gut in melodeon bellows

Tripping over tankard on way to bar

Tinnitus due to over-exposure to Morris bells

:)

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: alex s
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:48 AM

there's some great advice here

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:26 AM

Must admit I have encountered and worked with those who feel that if there is a tick in a box all is well, Anahata.
Remember PAT testing is not a legal requirement, just one way in indicating that someone "competent" has "inspected" your equipment. Unfortunately I have discovered many pieces of equipment bearing "PAT" stickers that were obviously faulty and I have had to disable or condemn them. DIY "PAT" sticking is a common occurrence as is the non qualified and unscrupulous "PAT" contractor. A look at and a sensible discussion with members of the band may be all that is needed to satisfy me as to the safety of equipment.

Your idea is a good one Al; if a document was produced in "Word" it would be very easy to customise it to individual needs.

Consideration should, however, be given to what the band actually do and anything "out of the norm" should be risk assessed.

With regards to a joint Health and Safety Policy and Risk Assessment, I certainly would be willing to "cast my eye" over such a document from an enforcement standpoint and add my advice or suggestions as to possible amendments, if required.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:25 AM

I wonder how the Risk Assessment people and the Health & Safety lot would get on aboard an Aircraft Carrier ?? Well, they just wouldn't !!! I spent 1966 to 1969 aboard HMS Eagle,during which time there were numerous accidents,some serious, ( rum ,"Tiger" and metal ladders / hatches were frequently involved), a major fire, two fatal aircraft crashes,and one guy fell overboard & was never seen again.Total deaths for the period -- Six ,including four aircrew.And we thought that that was a "good result",to be honest.
    I also spent six months on the carrier HMS Centaur. During her peacetime career,from the ' fifties up until about 1965,I believe that accidents,crashes etc claimed the lives of about 140 crew,including 5 or 6 who were scalded to death (instantly) when a super-heated steam -pipe burst in a boiler room. You just accepted it,and got on with your life----not today,though ; far from it !! And I know which period I would rather live in,and it is NOT today's over-protected,cotton-wool,safety-net paranoia !

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:52 AM

Some of you bands may like to consider a joint Safety Policy and Risk assessment document roughly based on what I have suggested as a "Risk Assessment "format. This could be handed to an organiser prior to your band engagement and even if no Risk Assessment was requested you would be acting in a professional manner and covering yourself in the possible risk of an accident.
Al

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: treewind
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 08:33 AM

'not all enforcers of health and safety are "jobsworths"'

Doubtless... I was thinking of one in particular, an encounter that provoked me into putting the boot on the other foot and starting a much more pro-active policy about testing, insurance, documentation, contracts and general professionalism on our side. It was the only time we were actually asked to show proof of PAT testing; it's often stipulated in documentation but not actually checked.

We've also encountered the office admin types who need bits of paper, tick boxes and I'm sure don't check details or even understand what they mean or whether they are relevant, just doing what they are told.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:41 AM

Glad this thread helped, but just one point for Anahata, not all enforcers of health and safety are "jobsworths". Some of us are helpful. As you indicated there are some places where health and safety is neglected and where our input is certainly required.
The organisers, generally, paying less heed to health and safety requirements than the visiting bands.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: alex s
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:56 AM

This is a terriffic help.
Thank you all for your excellent contributions.
I have gone from a state of "what the hell am I supposed to do" to one of supreme confidence!
I hope this information will also be as useful to other bands who are asked for RAs - as sfmans says, this will probably increase in the future.

Cheers, Mudcatters, and a big, big TA!

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: treewind
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:48 AM

"I would have thought it would have been the promoter's responsibility for provide any risk assessments - not the band's"

Yes, of course the venue/promoter has responsibilities too, but some of those have to be met by ticking all the right boxes for visiting bands and performers.

Everybody is desperately trying to shift the responsibility on to someone else. It's the same with insurance. I guess the promoter or venue doesn't want to take responsibility for everything the band or performer does (for all they know it might involve juggling chainsaws or fire-eating).

A few years ago I produced what I called a "Health and Safety Policy" statement for our band. It reads very like Alan's list, and it was there to throw back at jobsworths who want to know that "everything's PAT tested" (as if that was all there was to it) and it requires building electrics to be safe (believe me, we've played in some agricultural locations that weren't...) and spells out what we aren't responsible for, as well as the precautions we do take.

As a ceilidh band we do get subjected to small children running around too close to the band's stuff, dancers trying to trip over speaker stands or nearly crashing into the band (our best safety efforts can be severely hampered by room layout or lack of space), uneven barn floors... some people seem to have no clue about common sense risks.

For what it's worth, here's what we send out with every contract: Fendragon H&S policy Feel free to borrow and modify as you think fit, but Alan's list has some good ideas too.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:46 AM

Chris B, you are right in one way, however, health and safety is the responsibility of both the organisers and the band. Both will therefore have to do risk assessments, both have the responsibility to reduce risk to a reasonable level.
The members of the band are the experts in what they do and the organisers in what they do.
Just look at what you do and assess the risk to yourselves and others and introduce appropriate controls to reduce that risk to a "reasonable" level.
What you do should not conflict with what the organisers do and vice versa, it is also the duty of the organisers to advise you of any "significant risk(s)" to the members of your band through their activities.
Risk assessments are not too complicated and technically should only need to be written if there are more than five "employees". However many Local Authorities and other organisations insist on written risk assessments in order to demonstrate that they have been carried out.
As Alan stated a major risk is regarding your electrical equipment, you must ensure it has been examined by a "competent person"
The advice above from the Folk Police and Alan Day is very good advice and you should not have a problem if you follow it.
One of my duties is the enforcement of health and safety at functions such as that described by Alex and I am sure if the advice above is followed by a folk band at a function, I was attending in an official capacity, I would be pleased.
Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:34 AM

Risk assessments are intended to be a structured aid to thinking through what risks might attach to an activity and planning how to deal with them. Instead they all too often turn into a buck-passing exercise as different parties try to put the responsibility on each other.

The biggest danger (which increases the more detailed the assessment gets) is that they become too rigid and allow no flexibility or freedom of action when something unforeseen does happen. In a recent case a woman died after the fire brigade were unable to rescue her from a mine shaft because "Health & Safety" wouldn't allow them to use their body harnesses on a civilian - I shouldn't be at all surprised to learn that this policy came out of a risk assessment which failed to foresee this particular situation, but which did not allow those on the scene to use their own judgement.

I would agree with Chris B that it should be the promoter's responsibility to carry out a risk assessment for the event itself - the band will have no control over drink spillages or first aid provision. IMO the risk assessment for the band should cover only the band's own activities, but should include not only electrical safety but for example the handling of heavy items.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:23 AM

Perhaps it's more complex than that.

I think it's a lot more simple than that actually.

It's an increasing phenomenom where the hall or promoter are trying to shift liability from themselves onto the band. It's probably an amateurish attempt to do so, which wouldn't actually stand up in a court of law if someone was hurt at the event and decided to sue, but the very fact that the attempt is being made shows that the booking organisation aren't prepared to take responsibility for the event they want to organise.

My ceilidh band has public liability insurance, which is only right and proper in these litigious times. If anyone tried to get us to provide risk assessments for an event they were organising, we are lucky enough to have someone in the band who is qualified to do so through his work - but we would of course insist on charging charging the venue his full professional rate to do so. And if they pulled the gig on that basis, that's their loss, not ours.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Lady Nancy
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:18 AM

Hiya Alex

If you PM me as Lady Nancy I have a brilliant one that I will e-mail you; all you need to do is fill in the necessary information on the last couple of pages. It was prepared by a H&S officer for the small folk arts organisation for which I was administrator and can be adapted for any folk event, including morris dancers, street performances, dances, workshops etc. etc.

Hilary

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:16 AM

For heaven's sake we used to sometimes twist the ac wires from our amps together if there was only one socket on a stage in the 1960s!
No ridiculous compensation culture then.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:00 AM

This is interesting. I would have thought it would have been the promoter's responsibility for provide any risk assessments - not the band's. The band (I would have thought) have only agreed to provide a service to the promoter so that the promoter can deliver an event. Other than any risks arising from the use of the band's equipment (which bands can address by taking out public liability insurance) I would have thought any other risks relating to the use of the venue would be the responsibility of the promoter or the owners of the venue.

Perhaps it's more complex than that.

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:38 AM

I have been involved with writing many risk assessments in business and it will become more of a requirement as time goes by.
I have never written one for a Folk band but here is a rough guide to what I expect you will have to submit.

We agree to comply with the safety procedures laid down by your organisation.
Our electrical equipment has been tested and approved and is in accordance with Electrical Safety requirements. More details if you have it.
No members of your organisation or public should be present in the area whilst we are setting up our Electrical equipment.
All cables, wires and tripping hazards to be made safe within the requirements of our sound systems.This can be inspected by a member of your staff prior to commencement of dancing.
We do not accept any responsibility for injury, illness, or death caused as a result from dancing to our music.
We recommend that the normal first aid requirements be provided, by others, in case of an accident.
Extreme care should be taken if drinks are to be taken into the area of dancing, even a small amount of drink on the dance floor can cause
the floor to become slippery and in our experience this can be a major hazard. We recommend that a person be designated to inspect the area regularly and if a spillage does occur that it be cleaned and dried with paper towels.
The same applies to broken glass, which should be removed immediately.

We would like to point out that accidents rarely occur at these dance events, but persons under the influence of drink can be a danger to themselves and the other dancers and we would recommend that this be carefully controlled by a member of you organisation.

I expect many of you will like to correct my first stab at this subject, but this is a start
Al

Subject: RE: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: the Folk Police
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:18 AM

Is it amplified or not? and who is the local authority? They might have a standard form or guidance.

here's the LA guidance from Luton: Risk assessment guidance . They also have an example you can download.

Hope this helps. There's other stuff if you google "risk assessment music event".

Subject: Risk Assessment for folk band
From: alex s
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:00 AM

We've been booked for a gig which is open to the public, and been asked to provide a risk assessment. Any ideas on what that might entail?