BS: Teacher members of BNP

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM

I agree with Sir John... let's bury this thread under the petunias?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:18 AM

"Spend a day in an inner-city comprehensive and tell me that's the case."

That's where mrsleveller has spent much of her working life for the last 15 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:29 AM

Hey, j0hn - Where have you been? I see you must have given your keyboard a clean - Not a spilling mastike or sticky key in sight:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:02 AM

"Any discriminatory behaviour should be quickly picked up and the appropriate action taken."

Ya think?! Spend a day in an inner-city comprehensive and tell me that's the case.

Inevitably there will be racists working in the school system, and there is very little anyone can do about this. However, if someone joins a racist political party (which constitutes action, not just thought) they have made a clear and public statement about their bigotry, and must be fairly happy to defend it. Such people do not belong in positions of power over the vulnerable, in this case children.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:29 AM

I must admit that the idea of there being the odd (I use that word in both its contexts) BNP-supporting teacher in a school doesn't particularly worry me. One teacher does not make a school. Any discriminatory behaviour should be quickly picked up and the appropriate action taken. If a child came home spouting the loathsome BNP rhetoric, parents would soon complain to the headteacher. Based on the level of BNP support in this country, BNP teachers could only be a very small minority and, as I have said before, the compulsory CRB checks would soon rule out many potential candidates. Anyway, judging by the average IQ of a typical BNP supporter, very few would have the intelligence to qualify as teachers in the first place.

I think I would be more worried about the BNP targetting vulnerable adults - they, after all, have a vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:09 AM

Don, it is still name calling even if you replace some letters with asterisks.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 04:06 AM

I wonder if there might have been reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 03:50 AM

Don's right Paula, people have opinions/kinks/bigotry.....all professions and jobs

I've known teachers who actually "hated kids".....In my time at school, we were belted with a leather strap, a few teachers looked on that as a "perk of the job"

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 03:41 AM

"Thought police is a concept even more revolting than BNP (marginally), and impractical to boot!"

Glad to see we agree at last Don.
Now just take the pills and try to sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:09 PM

Back on topic, we are agreed, Tam, that BNP teachers are a problem, but, while it might be possible to remove party members, how would we handle sympathisers and fellow travellers.

Thought police is a concept even more revolting than BNP (marginally), and impractical to boot.

I would suggest that (absent mindreading) this is an impossible task. That said, are we making the classroom any safer by removing the visible (which can be monitored), while leaving in situ the invisible (which cannot)?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:57 PM

""As a teacher I am extremely concerned about teachers being allowed to be in the BNP ,as I stated earlier. This is not because they would be able to preach their ideology, but because their values would influence their behaviour. This could result in sections of our pupils being treated less fairly than others.""

No point talking to Ake about fairness Paula. Ake doesn't do fair.

He does discrimination against anyone he doesn't like, and that list is extensive.

Look up the list of his posts and you'll see what I mean.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:48 PM

"How ordinary people are cynically manipulated for political purposes.""

Especially by the rabble rousers of the BNP, who are expert at playing the "Goebbels bogeyman" game, to manipulate the dumber members of our population to believe Black and Asian people are the authors of all the country's ills.



Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:39 PM

""Don't even try to work out Mr McGrath's comment Don, a frontal lobe explosion could make more of a mess of these pages than your writing has already done :0)""

I was talking to McGrath, so butt out A***hole, and mind your own business.

Your bigotry and racism are already amply demonstrated elsewhere on this forum.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: paula t
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:20 PM

Akenaton,
As a teacher I am extremely concerned about teachers being allowed to be in the BNP ,as I stated earlier. This is not because they would be able to preach their ideology, but because their values would influence their behaviour. This could result in sections of our pupils being treated less fairly than others.Children are extremely perceptive , and know when someone values them less than someone else. It is not worth the risk of making a child unhappy. Let these teachers find another profession, because if they believe a section of the school community is less deserving, then they don't understand the role of teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:14 PM

FROM VIRGINIA   "Ake your last response to Joe - providing reasons why people support the BNP doesn't excuse the fact that those reasons are still racist."

But as explained, the reasons are not NECESSARILY racist....one can be against immigration on purely political grounds, for example , if it is being used as a tool by government to "make us more competetive in the global economy".

We are all members of one race or another, anyone who feels prejuciced against any particular race or skin colour is simply mad.

That does not exempt us from censure of our bad behaviour because we claim that any such censure is "racist"

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:57 AM

Yes dave I see your point :0), but I was a Tory till I was "indoctrinated" by an old workmate, and given some good reading material.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:53 AM

Additionally, If I were to become a police or prison officer, many would think me incapable of doing my job.

Should those with Socialist, Communist, or Anarchist political views be banned from doing the jobs you mention.

Would banning only BNP members be "discrimination"

Isn't "liberalism" complicated! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:49 AM

LOL Ake - It's probably WHY you grew up to be a millitant communist:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:37 AM

Victoria.....Do you really think students need protected from other people's views.

My primary school teacher(seven classes in one room), was a rabid right wing Tory who made the School memorise the MacMillan cabinet and sing the National anthem every couple of hours, yet I grew up to be a very militant Communist   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:16 AM

Vic C, I also teach in a PRU.
I was going to suggest that if a teacher were identified as BNP, the situation in their school would be just what you described in your place.
I am surprised that they escaped a ban. Feelings within the school would just not be conducive to the smooth running of the school.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:38 AM

Back to the topic....GAWD this is exhausting....

Akenaton if you see my post Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:24 AM

I said... Now what about what Don said re across the board statement of political affiliations and monitoring of any and all teachers whatever party they claim?

Seems like a very sensible proposition. The problem lies again in the enforcement. Ideas?

This is the direction I'd hoped the thread would move in. In my opinion, BNP members are not fit to teach children for the same reason that they are not fit to be police and prison officers.

But the fact remains teachers are NOT banned from BNP membership. And many teachers regardless of proclaimed (or not) political affiliations may well be problematic regards fair and equal treatment of all students.
So what would you (any of you) propose to protect students from exposure to inappropriate treatment.

Also guest Sam Hudson the junk you posted is without reference and does not apply to the topic of this thread.

Moderators - I thought guests were not permitted to post to BS threads, especially volatile ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:09 AM

but the Majority who vote for the BNP are simply sick of the corrupt nature of politics here.

If that is the case, then the majority of people who vote for the BNP cannot see past the end of their noses. Do you really belive that people are gullible enough to think that nasty Nick is a better man than Brown or Cameron? I have no time for politicians in general but, come on, do you realy believe that a politicians who also racist thugs provide a viable alternative? If that ever comes to pass I know it is really time to get out.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:08 AM

I have never seen any post here or elsewhere by any BNP member or supporter that appears to have any understanding of macro-economic issues. That leaves the principal BNP issues as immigration and corruption. There are many other routes to control of political corruption (and indeed the present principal complaint about venality is about the use of a system introduced by Margaret Thatcher (to create a covert pay rise for MPs) exactly as it was intended, to get extra money for MPs).

That leaves immigration as the only real driver of the BNP. It would in theory be possible for restriction or elimination of immigration to be non-racist, but that is never (and I mean never) seen. All of the proposals to restrict immigration will leave (say) white Germans free to come to the UK but not (say) black Africans. It is very hard to see how that cannot be racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM

Jack....I understand and accept your point.

Leveller.....Your point is related to Jack's

The people who run the BNP are no doubt as corrupt and power hungry as Blair or Thatcher.....but those who vote for them are not necessarily racist. As Jack says, they are in all probability being manipulated...... in the same manner as many "liberals"

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM

Virginia...I certainly am not stalking you, I just remembered you saying that you were inclined towards Anarchism. I did respond in agreement to your statement, but cant be arsed looking for the thread.

Anyway, apologies if I have upset you.

Now, I would really be interested if you would answer my question. regarding the fitness to teach, of anyone who holds these views.

I would add, that my own views are similar to yours on this issue.


Smedley.....There appears to be a large portion of working class society, mostly based in North and central England, who feel that no one but the BNP are addressing the issues which are most important to them.....and these issues do not include skin colour.

All the main parties avoided discussion on the effects of immigration during the "boom", now with the inevitable crash, they all want to talk about "regulation"   Fucking hypocrites!

But once people start to believe that they are being manipulated, the backlash is difficult to control.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:47 AM

"Racism or colour prejudice has never been the driver for BNP popularity, much as some of your friends here would like you to believe it."

So explain why so many high-profile BNP members and candidates have convictions for racist5 offences and for violence. Any reputable political party would expel them. The BNP welcomes and applauds them.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Stu
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:40 AM

"How ordinary people are cynically manipulated for political purposes."

Which the BNP is as guilty of as any other party, with racism attached too.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Smedley
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:08 AM

Akenaton: "There may well be racists in the BNP but the Majority who vote for the BNP are simply sick of the corrupt nature of politics here."


That, I fear, is utter rubbish. If you want to mark your dissaisfaction with mainstream parties via a protest vote, you have plenty of non-racist, non-fascist options.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 05:51 AM

Don - I know that there are plenty of working class Tories. Teachers by definition are not working class. I was taking up the point you made that you knew few Tory teachers. If the conservative has the wherewithal to take on further education it is generally to further possession and/or prestige.

Ake- Are you referring to this post?

Subject: RE: Knock! Knock! (who's there?)
From: VirginiaTam - PM
Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:25 PM

I wanna be an anachrist when i grow up

It is a joke thread and I purposely mispelled it in reference to the Sex Pistols song. Are you stalking me through threads?

If there are other reference from me re anarchy - yeah sometimes it appeals as a method of purging current political systems. But permanance of anarchy is unthinkable.

Re your last response to Joe - providing reasons why people support the BNP doesn't excuse the fact that those reasons are still racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 11:24 PM

Humanely?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 11:07 PM

The lady we had for Art History in High School put this question on the midterm "It has been said that the Greeks were architects, while the Romans were merely engineers. Discuss."
You could discuss that question either way, but knowing, as I did, that the lady was a proud Greek American, I disparaged the Pantheon and praised the Parthenon, thereby earning full points on the question.
It is hard for a teacher to keep her biases out of the classroom.
It occurs to me that facists don't have the best opinion of disabled people. Disabled students have a tough enough time without having a teacher who thinks they should be humanely destroyed.
The headmistress of my old school was quite the anglophile, and hired a number of English women to teach. Any one of them would have done very well in the S.S. Now I wonder what their politics were.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:34 PM

Well, Ake, it's pretty clear from the BNP Website, that they have strong prejudices against immigration and immigrants. I'm sure many BNP supporters have been brought in by deception, but the party makes no secret of its racism.

-Joe Offer, a descendant of immigrants-

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:59 PM

Joe.....I dont think you really understand where support for the BNP in England comes from.
There may well be racists in the BNP but the Majority who vote for the BNP are simply sick of the corrupt nature of politics here.
How ordinary people are cynically manipulated for political purposes.

During the "financial boom that never was" immigration was encouraged by new Labour as a device to "make Britain globally competetive" code for driving down workers wages.

The treatment given to immigrants to encourage them to come here, caused friction with the indigenous UK population.

Racism or colour prejudice has never been the driver for BNP popularity, much as some of your friends here would like you to believe it.

Your experience with the drunk on the bus was unfortunate, but these things happen everywhere....drunks are a menace and this one was not representative of the English people.....and I say that as a true Scot :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:38 PM

Not sure that makes a lot of sense to ME...La Raza does mean 'The Race'. OK, I'll get back under my rock now.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 06:51 PM

La Raza is a term used to identify Mexican-Americans and a couple of organizations that promote the rights of Mexican-Americans. To support "La Raza" is to support equal rights for people who have been oppressed and excluded in the U.S. for many generations - people whose roots are in a country which once owned a large part of what is now the United States.

Supporting the BNP means to support the supremacy of one race and the exclusion of all but a very narrowly-defined group of white people deemed to deserve to live in the UK.

In other words, supporting the BNP and supporting "La Raza" are exact opposities.

I've told this story here before, but it's worth telling again. When I was visiting England, Micca and I were riding a bus in London; and a drunken man about 60 years of age got on. Micca thought he was a Scotsman. He went around to everyone in the bus who looked foreign, demanding their papers and telling them they didn't belong there. Then he sat down next to me, and said something looking for sympathy. I responded, "I'm not a citizen of your country, sir, and I don't like what you were doing to these people." Almost all the people I encountered in England were very nice, but this one incident was distressing and seems to be a good example of the BNP mentality

I used to go to the Deep South of the U.S. to supervise elections under the Voting Rights Act. Usually, the people were wonderful, both black and white (and the food in the rural south was the stuff of legends). But there was always one person who said something hateful, something that reminded me that it was a good thing I was there.

When it comes to wanting to exclude people, that's racism. That attitude seems to be deeply entrenched in the thinking of BNP supporters. To them, you have to be born in the right place and have the right skin color if you want to have the right to pay to rent a home or pay to ride a bus or get a job that you're qualified to perform. That just doesn't seem like justice to most of us.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:07 PM

" In the states we have La Raza."

Which brings up a good point: Why is it if you support the BNP you are a racist but if you oppose La Raza you are also considered a racist?

David E.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:34 PM

Indeed, Don. "Curiouser and curiouser."

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:30 PM

Don't even try to work out Mr McGrath's comment Don, a frontal lobe explosion could make more of a mess of these pages than your writing has already done :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:20 PM

""Is opposition to immigration on any grounds a sure sign of racism, or the sign of a hypocritical "liberal" ideology.""

Only if, as is the case with the BNP it is primarily opposition to Black, and Asian immigration, especially when the party specifically excludes Black and Asian citizens from membership.

The BNP also state unequivocally that people of Black and Asian stock cannot be British, even if they, and their parents, were born here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:13 PM

""And if it were possible, that would in truth be a highly politicised form of teaching.""

Run that by me again MGoH.

The absence of political bias in teaching is a highly politicised form of teaching?

I must have just fallen down a rabbit hole.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM

""Re the bit about Torie teachers... well it seems unlikely because (if I am getting it right that they are like republicans in the US) teaching doesn't pay well enough or is not prestigious enough.""

I'm afraid you are being misled by the biased comment which is rife on these threads.

Given that New Labour, and the Tories each achieve somewhere in the region of 40% of the votes, it is nonsense to suppose that there are only rich toffs voting Tory.

There aren't anywhere near that number of rich Old Etonian types in the country.

Our resident lefties hate the idea, but it is true that there are near as many working class Tories, as Labour voters, and there are near as many greedy rich Labourites as there are greedy rich Tories.

"Sad, but true",or "heartening", depending on your point of view.

Right wing, however, is a very generous placement of BNP followers, who make Hitler look like a communist. No Tory comes close to parity with that lot.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:01 PM

I thought they had changed their membership policy?...and which parts of their manifesto are "overtly racist"

To me, a racist comment would be "black people are stupid, lazy, smelly,evil etc"......being against immigration on political grounds does not seem like racism to me.

Ruth, I read the link you posted.....Sorry, I thought it was absolute poppycock.....and dangerous in a "free society"

Did you bother to read the comments attached to the article, they were almost 100% in favour of BNP members being allowed to teach and very critical of the article

Seems we have retained some of our regard for freedom of speech and thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:52 PM

In the states we have La Raza.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:38 PM

If the BNP(whom I know very little about) are overtly racist, why are they recognised as a legal political party?

The legal entities are still out on that one, ake. Their membership policy has been decalred illegal and, hopefuly, their racist manefesto will soon go the same way.

Sorry, but we realy are taking chalk and cheese when you try to compare this bunch of thugs with any of the mainstream party. I would not give any politician the time of day. But I would not piss on a BNP member if he was on fire.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:30 PM

"If the BNP(whom I know very little about) are overtly racist, why are they recognised as a legal political party?

Is opposition to immigration on any grounds a sure sign of racism, or the sign of a hypocritical "liberal" ideology."


Akenaton, this is not simply about a party questioning immigration policy. Read and learn.


BNP's racist membership rules outlawed

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: vic c
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:26 PM

Sorry, regular lurker, non poster here.
I work for the pupil referral unit, an educational placement for excluded children. As such, the students are very vulnerable - potential activists, potential racists, many different kinds of kids.
A teacher is not only a member of the BNP, but has stood to be a councillor.
It is and has caused a multitude of difficulties - when the kids found out, there were many reactions - a black kid was extremely distressed, thought he'd been totally let down, trusted someone that he shouldn't. Black and Asian teaching assistants firstly wanted to refuse to work in a room with him (all groups are supported, no groups are more than 4/5 pupils) then felt they would be letting the kids down if they weren't in there to monitor and support.
The unions are heavily involved. Nothing can be done.
He is ostracised by the staff, not trusted by the pupils. It is affecting the education offered.
He makes remarks like "well, I'd not bother teaching french if it were up to me, no point".
It is a very difficult on going situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:25 PM

Well Dave, one could argue that ANYONE who joins any of the mainstream parties is guilty of naivety.

If the BNP(whom I know very little about) are overtly racist, why are they recognised as a legal political party?

Is opposition to immigration on any grounds a sure sign of racism, or the sign of a hypocritical "liberal" ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM

why do you wish to ban BNP members, who may simply have joined the Party on political issues like immigration or foreign policy.

Members of the BNP who agree with the overtyly racist policies should go nowhere near children on moral grounds.

Memebers of the BNP who joined on the basis detailed above and expected not to be tarred with the same brush should go nowhere near children on the grounds that they are too naive to be in control of young people.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 01:52 PM

I have fingers of lead and so couldn't possibly comment.100.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM

Don, the issue isn't banning the BNP. It is that membership of the BNP might not be appropriate for people working in certain professions. Keep in mind that there are lots of people who vote Labour, for example, who might not be members of the Labour party. It has already been deemed inappropriate for people in the prison service and for the police to be BNP members. If someone is so entrenched in their beliefs that they are a card-carrying member of an overtly racist political party, I do not think that they should be teaching children. It is NOT just an issue of how they deliver the curriculum, it is the fact that, in some of the most deprived and socially excluded schools, the element of pastoral care is proportionally much bigger than in the more middle class, successful schools. In fact, it is a huge part of the job. There are difficult situations to be navigated every day, and these may include children from diverse backgrounds, and from new immigrant communities. I am not sure, for example, that I would trust a card-carrying member of the BNP to respond in the most sensitive and caring way to a child from a Somali or a Polish family; nor to treat that child with absolute fairness and respect if they were bullied, for example, or came into conflict with white British kids.

These are the reasons why the police and members of the prison service are not allowed to be members. Keep in mind that having the right teachers working at the coalface can be the determining factor in whether certain kids end up in prison, or having regular run-ins with the police. For these reasons, I think that the regulation should be exactly the same.

I was furious when listening to Maurice Smith on Radio 4 yesterday morning - one of the main reasons he seems to have come to his conclusions is that he is afraid it will set a precedent for all public sector workers to be banned from BNP membership. He thinks this would be bad, so he has decided it would be inappropriate to ban teachers. But teachers are in a unique position with relation to other public sector workers. This article from today's Guardian spells out the issues really well:

Official: it's fine for racists to teach