New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.

Subject: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:02 AM

As one "isolated" from the scene for some time now I have , nevertheless, been reading some "mutterings" in the media about the beginnings of a "New" Revival of interest in Folk Music in the UK.
Can it be true ? is it necessary ? wouldn't it be great ?
Of course I realise that it is music of the genre "Americana" or "Old Time American " that is in question but , look what happened when the last surge of interest in that music began ?

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:11 AM

I may not have sen what you have seen Beachcomber, but what I have seen written as comment about "the rise of folk" seems mostly to be based in the apparent fact that there are again to be seen young women with floaty dresses writing wifty-wafty songs and playing them on acoustic guitar. The Press does not much do accurate research these days.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:15 AM

This doesn't belong in BS!

Is it true? Well it certainly seems so..
Is it necessary? Depends if you considers what hits the headlines or top ten important.
Wouldn't it be great? Depends which way it goes in my humble. If we end up with a few years where trendy young folk bands are popular for a while, then the genre simply disappears once again.. then nyah. If it generates greater public interest in traditional musics in the long term, then yep.

IMO

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:47 AM

Sorry Crow Sister, what my 2nd question was meant to discover was whether Mudcatters think that a "Revival" is required or is there already a sufficiently high level of interest in "folk" music. ?
But, weren't people like "Ian Campbell & Co ", "Steeleye Span", "Sweeney's Men", and so many other great "combos" also "trendy young folk bands" back when ?

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Acorn4
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:57 AM

It's in all probability due to a film or TV programnme.

This happened with "Oh, Brother, Where Art Thou?"

The music had always been there but it took the fad created by the film to raise the awareness of it.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:00 AM

"what my 2nd question was meant to discover was whether Mudcatters think that a "Revival" is required or is there already a sufficiently high level of interest in "folk" music. ?"

Sufficiently high level of public interest in acoustic guitar music by contemporary songer / songwriters or traditional folk music?

To the former, well I think all commercial and popular modern music should succeed or fail on it's own merits - whatever the genre, 'folk' included.

To the latter, no I don't think there is sufficiently high interest in it - in England at least. Simply because most people don't know it's there.

"But, weren't people like "Ian Campbell & Co ", "Steeleye Span", "Sweeney's Men", and so many other great "combos" also "trendy young folk bands" back when ?"

Sure, but I'm not sure how that relates to my comment about another popular revival potentially going the same way as the last?

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:01 AM

They're always wittering about this & it all depends on what is meant by Folk - generally, alas, not a lot - just more AO/MOR acoustic shite then I'll be happy to continue tuning into Tim Westwood for something with genuine Tradition and Passion and Relevance and Exellence.

HOWEVER... Take Heart!

If 1903 represents Year Zero for Revival #1 (that seminal-seed visionary encounter between Cecil Sharp & John England in the mists of our green & pleasant cultural dreaming) and 1956 represents Year Zero for Revival #2 (when Baby-Boomers hip to the glories of Leadbelly, Guthrie, Holcombe et al began to look to the British source of the American Folk Boom) then by my reckoning this means we're just about on the nail for Revival #3.

Already I think of this as The Post Revival, where we might sweep away the flaccid conceits of Revivals 1 & 2 (with few heroically significant exceptions only going to prove rules - Jim Eldon & Peter Bellamy to name but two) and face The Traditional Archive altogether AFRESH & Entirely Unencumbered by anything resembling Folk Music. We must become Born-Again and stand in Naked Humility before the brilliance of the Old Singers, Musicians and their Songs and go down on bended knee in reverential awe of what they represented which was so cynically pissed upon by the bourgeois / middle-class prissy parlour & MOR niceties of revivals #1 & #2.

The Post-Revival will cut loose from Folk and head into hitherto uncharted waters where folkies fear to tread in dread of sirens and serpents whilst adhering 100% to the perfect principles of Traditional Song & Balladry...

Enough already! But hey, it's okay to dream isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:13 AM

SO'P, that sounds dangerously like a revolutionary manifesto..

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:16 AM

..you'll never headline Sidmouth with talk like that.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:21 AM

a revolutionary manifesto

Steady on. But better than his usual tripe anyway. I almost agree with some of it.

But the entire premise is flawed. I wrote somewhere else (can't remember which thread) when I got in last night after an excellent set from Matt Quinn and Tom Moore, combined age 35. I don't think for a minute they consider themselves part of a "3rd revival". The glorious traditional tunes they play have always been there, obviously. All that's needed is to notice them and play them well, as they do.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:29 AM

Would you not accept, C.S. , that those "trendy young folk bands" ; that we have mentioned ; did play some role in raising the profile of an older type of music , by bringing their versions of "folk music" to a young, wider audience (Adapted to their accoustic guitars though it may have been - but isn't adaptation the very strength of traditional music ?) Many of this " trendy young audience " may well have become the present day supporters of the "true" tradition that you obviously love and cherish ?

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:59 AM

Beachcomber, yes the revival inspired a generation of traditionalists, and luckily for me many of them are here and generously willing to impart from their considerable experience and knowledge-base (I've had shed-loads of useful stuff thrown at me in the post by some of the grumpy awld gets here).

The unfortunate thing I see with the revival however, is that the long-term consequence of some of it's (IMO) confused aims and aspirations has resulted in the generation of an entire multi-tentacled genre of - although very pleasant - 'folk-like' music which has effectively occluded the traditional material itself, from public view. And especially from view of the generations that have followed, such as me & my peers.

I don't know how really popular traditional music can ever be - in the long term. Or indeed that it aught necessarly to be so. Unlike most modern acoustic 'folk-inspired' music, traditional songs (which is my personal area of interest) are *challenging*. The melodies are less so, but some of them go on and on forever, some deal with very taboo and frankly f*cked-up stuff, some are just plain odd or tough to resolve intellectually, and so-on. Not all of them, of course. Only the best of it.. ;-) As such this stuff will probably always be an aquired taste, and indeed all the more rewarding for that. Like Stilton or Lime Pickle, both of which I love.

But what matters most to my mind, isn't how commercially successful folk music is, but simply how readily *practically accessible* traditional material is to anyone who might potentially find it of some interest or relevance to them. If this new revival notion, encourages people to check out and discover some of this stuff and maybe get drawn in by it, that's all good. Though I'd like to see it stay afloat next time - free from the fortunes of popular commercial folk, so that those who might be attracted will be able to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:18 AM

How very well argued Crow Sister, I am happy to let our discussion rest with your "philosophy" on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:23 AM

When I go to festivals I find loads of young people playing music to a high standard. Some are on the stage and some are in the bars. That's what I call the third revival. I believe the current interest of folk is unlikely to more than slow down a bit.

Some of them are also good singers. Tonight I am off to a session where there will be (I reckon - one can never be certain) lots of young people. It's a music session so probably not many songs.

I first got involved around 1960 and in those days we were all into singing (except me - I know my limitations) nowadays it is mostly an instrumental revival (IMHO), though there are some good singers around too.

Take a look at the front of the latest issue of the EDS magazine. Hannah is 22 and Sam 21. They play in a variety of combinations, especially Sam who is in Bellowhead, Kerfuffle, Fay Hield Trio, Remnant Kings, Hannah and Sam. As well as Hannah and Sam and Kerfuffle, Hannah is in the Demon Barber Road Show and a newer all-female group Lady Maisry.

Virtually everything they do would come under the broad heading of "traditional".

Of course I realise that it is music of the genre "Americana" or "Old Time American " that is in question but , look what happened when the last surge of interest in that music began?

Not sure what you mean here!!? care to expand?

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:34 AM

Good man Dave, I just meant that the "Revival" of interest in American "Folk" music/song, typified by the Kingston Trio say, of the late 50s in the USA seemed to spark off a renewed interest on this side the Atlantic also ? That "Folk Revival" of which I read recently also mentioned that bands of young people were playing "Old Time American Music" in the UK, and that it might again spark off something similar ??

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:45 AM

I note that there are two 'folk' CDs reviewed in the music section of today's 'Independent on Sunday' (UK newspaper). Neither of them are by people I have ever heard of and, after reading the reviews, I cannot see how either could possibly be classed as 'folk'. From the descriptions given they appear to be indistiguishable from the poppy stuff in the adjacent 'rock' and 'jazz' reviews. I suspect that the reviewers get send loads and loads of similar CDs. They then pick a handful, at random, to review and consult some chicken entrails when deciding what labels to slap on them.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:05 AM

What are teh names of the guilty parties, Shimrod? THen we can consult the entrails of Mr GOogle.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:13 AM

Looking at the Indy reviews, I suppose Mumford & Sons might be debatable (if you must) but surely no-one would dispute Lou Rhodes? No-one that is but an anorak-clad, obsessive labeller.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM

BEcho: "The glorious traditional tunes they play have always been there, obviously. All that's needed is to notice them and play them well"

Yeppers.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,Suibhne (Astray)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:00 PM

But the entire premise is flawed. I wrote somewhere else (can't remember which thread) when I got in last night after an excellent set from Matt Quinn and Tom Moore, combined age 35. I don't think for a minute they consider themselves part of a "3rd revival". The glorious traditional tunes they play have always been there, obviously. All that's needed is to notice them and play them well, as they do.

Always nice to see Comrade Easby et al missing the point by a million merry county miles as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:17 PM

My point is that there isn't a "3rd Revival" in progress but a continuing tradition, and a resurgence of interest spurred by excellent performances such as that witnessed last night. You on the other hand, in maundering on about a nebulous "post revival" were saying nothing whatsoever and muddying the waters for no apparent purpose. You mean you and / or the OP had a point? What was it?

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,Suibhne (Astray)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:03 PM

You mean you... had a point? What was it?

With all due respect, Comrade Easby, you were agreeing with my point a couple of posts back & now you're asking what it was!

In brief - I see no problem with the session scene; I never have seen a problem with the session scene; all my life (48 ever accelerating years & counting) I've known hundreds of great traditional players & hundreds of great traditional sessions and long may it thrive - which it will do anyway, regardless, but, saving the occasional song sung with due all-due-respect, it doesn't cross over (much) (if at all) into the Song Scene. My Post-Revival Polemic back there is to do with redetermining the aesthetical mire into which Traditional Song has fallen and taking a fresh look in the light of The Actual Tradition rather than the increasingly wearying orthodoxies of The Revival.

The other point is that age doesn't come into it, and neither does so-called musicianship; drooling over youth & increasingly slick musical vituosity obfuscates the essential beauty of what The Tradition was all about. What matters is passion and a long-term commitment to the essential humanity of the craft which might allow some of the hitherto marked eccentricity, inventiveness & idiosyncasy (factors which determined The Tradition just as The Tradition determined them) to flourish and shine through. This has nothing to do with your pet GEFFs by the way, perish the thought, just placing a little value on the noise aesthetic which seems to have all but vanished from the music.

I write this whilst listening to Leadbelly singing John Hardy on repeat play, very loud indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:29 PM

What I said was that small flashes penetrated the fog of chuntering and I felt I could almost agree with a little of what may have been glimmering. Though what the OP was on about in the first place remains obscure and almost certainly without point.

However it now seems clearer that you are merely on a tired old anti-intellectual rant. "So-called musicianship" (as you put it) is to be despised by you when the exponents don't have enough mud on their boots and might even (horrors) have read their tunes in a book. Bollocks.

Dylan does a good John Hardy. However, I'm listening to William Mittel fiffle tunes. Quite loud.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,Suibhne (Astray)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM

Bollocks.

Quite, Comrade Easby.

I actually find Dylan physically painful to listen to, but I've been having a epiphany with Woodie Guthrie over the last few days, especially this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKWGAGPy_kw

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:10 PM

Friends, I wasn't trying to make any point, far less "score" any. I merely asked if there was any substance in an article that I recently read (somewhere -sorry haven't a reference) that seemed to be suggesting that new young bands,in the U.K. (and some that had been playing away in semi-secret) were going back to old time American music for their material. This they described as another "Revival" to match that of the 50s the songs from which era were again being used
Since I am no longer able to involve myself in the music scene and do not live in the UK I am interested to know.That's all !
I love most kinds of music and used to be an avid collector when I was able to afford it.
Why obscure ?

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:16 PM

"My Post-Revival Polemic back there is to do with redetermining the aesthetical mire into which Traditional Song has fallen and taking a fresh look in the light of The Actual Tradition rather than the increasingly wearying orthodoxies of The Revival."

Contemporary theatre productions of classic works of drama, are no-where like as stylistically predictable as the equivalent contemporay treatments meeted out on traditional song. In fact the only art-form I can think of in the U.K. where a similarly retentive approach may be witnessed, is architecture (thanks for that Charlie). I wonder why that is?

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:50 PM

I'd like to add to my last comment - as someone who started out basically copying revival recordings last year - that I'm as guilty as anyone in that regard.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:57 PM

The curse of the Post-Modern! As a mate once muttered in my ear at a Folk Club before heading off the bar never to seen again: "The reactionary aesthetics of folk music stand in diametric opposition to the radical political aspirations of the proponents." Or words to that effect.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM

New Revival,nothing wrong with that as long as its not spearheaded by Griffin and the BNP

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:16 PM

"New Revival,nothing wrong with that as long as its not spearheaded by Griffin and the BNP"

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:12 AM

recently read (somewhere -sorry haven't a reference) that seemed to be suggesting that new young bands,in the U.K. (and some that had been playing away in semi-secret) were going back to old time American music for their material. This they described as another "Revival" to match that of the 50s the songs from which era were again being used
Since I am no longer able to involve myself in the music scene and do not live in the UK I am interested to know

Well I reckon I keep up reasonably well and the short answer is no.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:21 AM

Dave: Noah and the Whale. Mumford and Son. And a host of other soundalike and spinoff bands. Not to mention a couple of clubs round and about. There is definitely a Radio 1/2-friendly strand of British acoustic music at the moment which takes its inspiration from Americana moreso than from British traditions, but it's a trend. And because it's trendy, I don't think it will last particularly (though some of it is very good). It's got very little to do with the English revival of the past 10 - 15 years.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:53 AM

I'm a big fan of Mumford & Sons but I think you'd be hard-pressed to describe it as folk, American or otherwise. As for them heading a new folk revival - if they are it's passed me by.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:13 AM

That's what I was implying by "obscure", later questioned by the OP. Sure, there's a bit of Mumfordy American-based pop around. It's any connection to the resurgence of English trad that is "obscure" or indeed of any substance whatsoever. It's all quite nice, but entirely unrelated to any "English Folk Revival", real or imagined.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:38 AM

M&S, N&TW and so on are fairly mainstream pop/rock acts with one foot in indie/alternative music and a nodding acquaintaince with "folk" music. However, from a marketing/media/pigeonholing point of view they are as likely to be called "folk" as anything, because they play some acoustic instruments and they have a vaguely pastoral vibe to some of their stuff. Neither band - nor much of the stuff in a similar vein - is to my taste, not because it's not real folk or anything as crass as that, but because it's more R2-friendly, anodyne folk-lite destined for the coffee tables of those who find Keane and Coldplay too edgy.

I'm not particularly interested in the concept of a "third revival" except as an amusing numerological parlour game. What I am interested in is people who are making music rooted deeply in tradition (including original music with all the right reference points) ploughing their own furrow and shaking off some of the mores and conventions around how traditional music should be arranged and presented in 2010. There are some brilliant singers and players on the traditional music scene, but I can't help feeling the general trend is towards a revival-lite, increasingly uniform sound which doesn't really challenge or take the listener outside of a fairly safe and comfortable folkzone. I'd draw a parallel with rock & pop - most of what I hear I wouldn't touch with a bargepole, but there have always been a core of artists who have not been afraid of taking a more exploratory and less mainstream approach. In the past - particularly in the 1970s - the folk revival has also had this, be it Shirley Collins, Mr Fox, Peter Bellamy, Ray Fisher or Pentangle. I'm not really sure who their equivalent are in the current decade. I can think of a handful of people I would put in a similar class (and a slightly bigger group who seem to straddle, to some degree or another, the new mainstream revival sound and something with a bit more bite), but I also think that many of the current crop of younger singers and players of traditional music are happy with an increasingly codified sound. That's not to slag them off or question in any way their skills and talents and commitment to what they are doing, but simply to comment that as a listener I rarely pick up much of the sort of alt vibe I find with the sort of rock, jazz, non-folk acoustic music or Americana I also listen to.

Could I also add that I'm not talking here about (for instance) grafting on dadrock-style stadiumtastic drumming to conventional 2010-style trad, but something a little more intangible and subtle in approach and attitude.

And please understand that this is just my personal opinion in terms of what I want to hear as an enthusiastic and discerning (!) music listener. There's surely room for this sort of thing too.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:39 AM

To return to the OPs question.
I don't see that a Third revival (whatever that may be) is actually happening. Certainly any Americana influence isn't very evident in the UK.
What is happening is that a lot of young people are finding the music for themselves.
Quite ofen by associating with other young people, a lot of whom are the children of established artists, and have therefore been surrounded by the music all their lives.
Try and imagine Eliza Carthys upbringing. Not only parents who performed, but an aunt and uncle too..(not to mention probably lots of other singers and musicians popping by and staying over whilst on tour.
Hardly surprising that the music would just seep in, by Osmosis.
Also, Degree courses like Newcastle, are producing a whole raft of new musicians and singers.
So, you could call it a revival, to me it's more of a continuation. The only change is the decreasing relevance of what we would call the "Folk Club"
Pre the internet era, The FC was really the only place to find this kind of music.
But nowadays, access is available everywhere. Yes of course some clubs survive, and some are brilliant at it, but the new generation seem to doing it another way.

So, not dying.....Just changing, as always.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:54 AM

Pre the internet era, The FC was really the only place to find this kind of music.

Well I would hate to disagree with such a distinguished musician and babe magnet - but I think what you mean is from the hey day of folk clubs.

Pre-(Say about 1955) - there were no folk clubs.

You could always hear it in the pub! (Which is where I was last night). Now that is news.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:07 AM

OK Mr Pedant!
Thats what I meant, and you know it!
Hear it in a pub? I wouldn't frequent pubs don't you know...

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:15 AM

Long before I'd ever heard the term "f*lk" I was finding music in books as well as hearing it from the pub floor while grandad played it. He'd never heard of "f*lk clubs" yet had played for a pre-WW1 sword team.

I got a nice little song about Junipers and Gentians from an old library book and inflicted my "discovery" far and wide till someone pointed out it was actually a mélange of Prof F J Child's Nos 1 & 2 hits.

Nowadays such balls-ups can be avoided in two clicks of a mouse (though often aren't). What is on the up is far more accurate attribution and recognition of provencne which is a Good Thing.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:33 AM

but I also think that many of the current crop of younger singers and players of traditional music are happy with an increasingly codified sound.

When I recently expressed the opinion that Jim Causley's music was tidy, well-ordered musical MOR blandness for the well-behaved Folk Fan insider for whom the lawlessness of the feral wilderness is anathema (see HERE) I was roundly denounced & openly insulted by an apoplectic Joan Crump - hitherto a Mudcat friend who hasn't had a good word to say about me publicly or privately since. As Spleen says, and as I pointed out at the time HERE this wasn't to slag anyone off, just point out what is, in any case, a salient truth regarding the nature of Folk Music which stands in very stark contrast to the provenance of such material for which Comrade Easby rightly calls for a recognition of in an above post. But provenance is bigger than a few well-sourced musical notes reduced to musical blandness by the favoured initiates into the heady realms of corporate Folk Celebrity.

Once again I'm listening to Leadbelly singing John Hardy, even louder than last time. Would that others did likewise.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:49 AM

That's because, Spinachy, I felt your comments about Jim Causley were a nasty, bad-tempered strop, which were couched within a thread about whether his music ought to be available for people to steal on line. I do think much of your posturing about Your own "feral" music is a lot of self-regarding bollocks, but it wasn't until you publicly sniped at a very talented young performer (IMHO) that I said it out loud.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:56 AM

Oh, and in quoting yourself above, you forgot the bit where you said you'd had to turn off Jim's music after 90 seconds because of "consequent nausea". That gives rather a more complete picture of the mean-spiritedness to which I was responding.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM

If there is a 3rd wave English folk revival, Jim Causley is surely right up there in the vanguard. Sean O'Greenveggie seems to base his mean-spirited view on a recorded video clip and not bothered to see him live or find out what he does. This is a young man who revived wassailing in his home village of Whimple and takes endless trouble to seek out unusual material and collaborate with a variety of fine musicians.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:11 PM

The point surely is that we now have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight.

We've been there, and seen the pitfalls.

This is the time when we should all be getting together, finding venues, and ensuring that it is we who decide how they are run.

Don't know about anyone else, but if I were to run one, it would have a solid basis of traddies from day one, not to discourage outsiders, but to welcome, enlighten, and educate.

Job Done!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:33 PM

Borchester, My question was not about "English" Folk music but about "Folk Music" in the UK, as you can see if you re-read my O.P. Where is the problem ?

Subject: RE: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:46 PM

"This is a young man who revived wassailing in his home village of Whimple"

Wassailing in Whimple! What a wonderful image this conjours up. I have a vision of Jim at the head of a group of extremely rowdy nuns, carousing round orchards after consuming large quantities of cider. Bet he could write a hilarious anecdote about it.

Subject: RE: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:48 PM

Where is the problem?

Problems so far include a conflation of Americana with Old Timey (which are absolutely NOT the same thing), O'Spinachchops slagging off a fine young performer and all who would put him at the forefront of any "revival" (even an imagined one) and the introduction of the absurd, divisive term "traddies" which is generally interpreted as a term of abuse for the out-of-touch.

Subject: RE: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:50 PM

Bet he could write a hilarious anecdote about it

Certainly he's written a song about though it doesn't involve nuns.

Subject: RE: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:03 PM

RA says "I felt your comments about Jim Causley were a nasty, bad-tempered strop couched within a thread about whether his music ought to be available for people to steal on line."

But in fact, SO'P had already said "I described his music as tidy, well-ordered musical MOR blandness because that's precisely what it is. There is nothing nasty in me saying this, nor yet do I think he should roll over and allow his music to be pirated if he can stop it." (my emphasis).

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So, SO'P described Jim Causley's music as "tidy, well-ordered musical MOR blandness."

RA then said of SO'P, "Your own 'feral' music is a lot of self-regarding bollocks."

It doesn't take a genius to spot the difference in tone and intent between the two comments.

Subject: RE: New 'Revival' of Folk Music in England.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:10 PM

Not being a genius, I'll clarify the difference in tone and intent:

O'Spinachy was being gratuitously offensive, and wrong.
Her in the Ambridge cowshed was making fair comment, and is right.