BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...

Subject: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:22 AM

Does anyone know of any actual REAL scientific study that shows that changing the clock as we do saves any energy? I know that livestock, domestic pets, and wildlife all get confused until they overcome the virtual jet lag caused by the change. And then, if that wasn't enough trouble, President Numbnutz shifted the US off of the agreed-upon worldwide standard.

If I don't smoke a bowl of Frogmorton on the Town in my blond Tinsky XL billiard, I think I will just put the extra time in the bank with my portion of the national debt.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:26 AM

I have no idea Saul but like a lot of folks I just see it as more evening time in the summer. I could care less if it saves anything and if I had my way, we'd be on it year round!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:32 AM

I'm with Spaw. I think it's stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:10 PM

If I remember correctly, the original idea was to give factory hands more days of the year when they could both travel to work and get home again in daylight. It's not terribly important to us, but it really mattered during the Second World War, and the period of economic recovery that followed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:11 PM

As I posted here years ago, I actually heard on old woman say on a radio talk show once, "I don't like it...it will confuse the chickens!"

Me? It's the best day of the year, and as you know, Saul, I no longer smoke them things, so I'll just celebrate by cutting up some wood in that extra hour.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:40 PM

I asked the Dachshund. He says it's a stupid idea. I tend to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:42 PM

If we did not shift here, it would be dark near 3PM for about 15 days either side of the winter solstice, meaning higher energy usage in public buildings, businesses, etc. Outdoor work would suffer as well. Schoolchildren walking home in poor light (not so much these days, of course, but you can see whay that would have been a big deal in the past).

As for a quantitative analysis of the actual energy savings, I assume it would be almost impossible, even based on an emperical order of magnitude, to to propose a figure which would be reasonably acceted without arguement and perhaps even grandstanding. However, given the fact that I am an astute and emminently qualified engineer well versed in cost-benefit analysis, I offer the following. A penny saved is a penny earned.

I'm with Spaw. Been of like mind since my old man first took me trout fishing on Blind Brook after work in early June when I was 10 years old and we got back to the car at 10PM. I was allowed to stay up until 10PM!

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:48 PM

They tried not changing the time in the UK many years back..and it resulted in more accidents on the roads, particularly involving school children, who went to school in the dark.


Here's the man to blame, or thank.

George Vernon Hudson - Inventor of Daylight Saving Time idea

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:01 PM

If you want or must blame someone, blame one of the greatest minds of the 18th Century: Benjamin Franklin. The idea was to give farmers more daylight in which to get work with the crops done.

During WW2 the clocks were pushed ahead two hours.

I've been doing it all of my life, so I'm used to it. Think though of those in Indiana, where MOST of the State is on Eastern Time but doesn't used daylight time, EXCEPT for those counties that are on Central Time and DO use Daylight Time OR are along the Ohio River and are on Eastern Time AND use Daylight Time. So going from South Bend to Gary means that you have to go from EST to CDT, which works out the same, except when both are on Standard Time.

Or Arizona, where a huge chunk of the State, known as the Big Rez, goes on Daylight Time except for those spots in the Rez that don't because they aren't Navaho.

I won't even mention Hawaii.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:10 PM

When do the times chnage in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: naughtyforty
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:18 PM

According to my calendar (UK) British Summertime commences on Sunday 28 March so I guess we put the clocks forward one hour sometime after midnight on that day (or before we go to bed if before then!)

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:02 PM

It prolly saves a bit on electricity, but those longer daylight hours seem to encourage folks to go places, in their energy-consuming cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:22 PM

Not me. It encourages me to sit on the back porch (deck) after dinner and watch golfers make fools of themselves. Best show in town.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:49 PM

The only real problem I have noted with it, is that folk music events (and probably others) which start about 8PM often have problems getting the audience to show up on time. People get this notion/feeling in their heads that "nothing starts till after dark, so I don't have to think about it yet".......or maybe they know, but just cant bear to stop weeding the garden till they can't see any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:52 PM

Some folkies show up with weed... not necessarily on time, tho.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:56 PM

These days, electric lights in homes probably make up a very small fraction of the electricity we use. (Most businesses have to have lights on regardless of whether there's daylight outside; then there's all the electricity used by our computers, photocopiers, refrigerators, fans, air conditioners, pumps, and myriad electronic devices we didn't have when DST was invented.)

While it's logical to expect there is SOME savings due to DST, I'd bet it's so small that most people wouldn't bother with it if it were voluntary and if saving money were the ONLY reason to do it.

But saving money isn't the only reason.

For most people, it really doesn't make sense to be sleeping in the morning after the sun is up, and then staying awake long after the sun goes down. (Yeah, I know, musicians....) They'd rather be enjoying the sunlight.

I don't really see how animals and farmers are relevant. Can't you just let animals stick to their own schedules? Don't they do that anyway? Farmers are pretty independent. They can get up and go to bed whenever they want, regardless of what the clock says. Wouldn't farmers naturally get up earlier in summer anyway? They'd probably adjust gradually instead of all at once, but they can still do that, regardless of whether the rest of us observe DST.

I don't think there are any time police that go around waking up farmers or fining them if they sleep too late. Come to think of it, they don't do that for city people, either.

When you come right down to it, compliance is voluntary. The law only defines what we mean when we say 8 o'clock. It doesn't say you have to go to work then. That's between you and your employer.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:09 PM

In NZ, there is a lot of dairying, and the farmers moan sometimes at the tyranny of the milk collection tanker. The cows have developed a time habit, and instead of strolling into the milking parlour on time, they stroll in one hour late.
In the natural state, of course, there is a name for animals which are still asleep at dawn.
Breakfast.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 04:12 PM

There is a natural time to get up (for day animals), and it is around or just before sunrise. If you're a night animal, it's around sunset.

Take electric lights and other powered devices away from human beings, and they will soon move back into their natural cycle and get up around or just before sunrise, and go to sleep not long after sunset.

And it's healthier that way too.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 04:44 PM

Thanks Naughty40

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 05:44 PM

I dunno about you, LH, but I know few humans that sleep 16 hours a day around here in mid winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 06:04 PM

No, but in traditional hunter-gatherer societies the short days of winter were a time for mostly staying indoors if at all possible and gathering with others around a fire, sharing handicrafts and storytelling and other socializing. You wouldn't sleep for a whole 16 hours a day, certainly, but you would go out far less than in the good weather of spring, summer, and fall. People used to store up as much preserved food as they could in the harvest season in order to get through those harsh conditions of winter.

Where we differ from those traditional people is obvious. We just continue doing the same darned daily work schedule and traveling no matter what the hell Nature is doing, because we have made making money the condition of survival. This causes us to do much that is out of sync with Nature, and that was my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 06:56 PM

And it's a good point, LH. Gramma Owens used to say she couldn't understand it... more turnip and carrots and spuds onions and barley in the pot on the back of the stove and let winter be winter....be a good lad Gary and play us a tune and I'll make dumplings.

Those were simple days. I miss them.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:48 PM

The trouble with daylight saving is that you're just getting used to waking up in daylight when they switch the lights off again, but nobody tells drivers of private cars so they think it must be daylight and drive around for an extra hour in the dark with no lights on.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: open mike
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:56 PM

did this happen==the changing?

is that why my computer and cell clocks

are different from my wrist and wall clocks?

when was it? why did i not know?

i had my radio show yesterday and was on time...

i usually operate on daylight wasting time..

sometimes, when in Elko nevada, my cell phone

clock flips back and forth by an hour or two.

unfortunately the service that used to tell you
the time over the phone has been discontinued
as "they" believe that everyone has a cell phone
or a computer to tell them what time is is.

this recorded message used to also tel you the
temperature, in the town i was in when i was young
so long ago...

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:16 AM

I do not like it. My dad hated it and called Standard Time "god's time" and thought we should stay on it, as do I. (And, he was not a religious person..just thought that expressed his feelings about it well.)

I wish they would stop it altogether. LH, very good points, thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:40 AM

"I know that livestock, domestic pets, and wildlife all get confused until they overcome the virtual jet lag caused by the change"

I just HAVE to destroy this utter BS...

The animals only 'get confused' because the humans looking after them are too stupid to realise that animals don't understand the concept of 'clock time', only sunrise and sunset. So the humans must change the 'clock time' at which they tend the animals, if they truly believe that their animals will 'be upset'. If you milk the cows at '5 am' then you still do that, it's just that the physical clock now reads a different time for a few months...

sigh...

Of course if you INSIST that you must now work by the time that the clock shows, trust me, it is not the animals that are confused.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:49 AM

"the tyranny of the milk collection tanker"

Once again, human stupidity - of the company collecting the milk - and possibly the unions that want 'overtime' if the collection is changed by an hour to the rational obvious one....

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:25 AM

I had an uncle—a farmer, by the way—who also referred to Standard Time as "God's time."

That only reflected his ignorance of history. Standard Time was invented by the railroads, and was adopted in England in 1847 and in the US in 1883. Before that, there were no time zones; every town had its own time, which might be a few minutes earlier or later than the next town to the east or west. And of course when Standard Time was first adopted, some people resisted it and called the local time "God's time."

I believe the Romans had a system where the day, from sunrise to sunset, was divided into 12 equal hours, and the night also into 12 equal hours, so the length of an hour varied according to the season. It makes sense if you tell time mainly with a sundial. Maybe they called that system "Jupiter's time."

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:44 AM

>>Maybe they called that system "Jupiter's time<<

Or Flexi Time

I'll stamp me card

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:44 PM

Well, as it happens I've spent all day trying to get some software for time zones working. It's hellishly complicated, you know, and not helped by the way there are acronyms for some bits (GMT, UTC, etc) but not for others (there's no agreed acronym for 'UK Time' for example, which is GMT part of the year and BST for others; the same lack of a name seems to apply to most, but not all, 'variable' zones); nor is it helpful when two completely separate parts of the world both want to refer to EST (US and Australia.) Just to add to the amusement, Microsoft's TimeZoneInfo facilities do something completely bizarre when the time is ambiguous (i.e. the ambiguity is resolved differently for "what's the time?" and "Is there daylight saving?"

Then there's a whole political layer when the same timezone (in terms of UTC offset) needs to have different names in different places to avoid upsetting people ...

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:23 PM

Isn't GMT officially UST (Universal Standard Time) in Europe? I used to keep my watch on it all year when I was using a tachograph, as goods vehicles, like animals, ignore daylight shaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:32 PM

It's a stupid idea switching the clocks twice a year. Especially now when it's not just the clock in the hall, but the TV and the central heating and the watches and the mobile phones and the clock in the car...

Far better if we could all leave them be, and just adjust how we live according to what seems sensible - getting up an hour earlier when the day gets longer or going to bed sooner when it gets dark earlier. Or not, if we choose not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:37 PM

Our clocks don't go forward till March 28th incidentally, two weeks after the Nirth Americans. You'd think they'd coordinate that kind of thing in these days of Skype and suchlike.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:13 PM

Nowadays, the clocks in this house that can change themselves do. The rest show whatever time they feel like showing until I can be bothered correcting them, except for the one in the car which always overshoots so is pretty much random.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:17 PM

Actually I've still got one showing the time in Sydney from at least seven years ago when my daughter was working in Oz.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:09 AM

Nice one, Dave. But did you set that up after phoning her at some ridiculous hour?

Very occasionally, we get a wrong # from someone in a different time zone (apart from Oz, all English-speaking timezones are very different to NZ.) Regardless of the time, I always obligingly look up the correct # for them, without telling them our time.
Why should I be the only one wakened up?

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:10 AM

Actually it was before, but as I was phoning to check that it wasn't her who'd died in a sky-diving accident, she forgave me.

My sister-in-law used to phone from Oz, and her first words were always "What time is it?"

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: JennieG
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 05:22 AM

Here in New South Wales we finish daylight saving in the wee small hours of 28th March. We now have six months on, six months off. When it started here within recent memory (early 70s I think) we had four months on, eight off. Have to admit......I'll be glad to go back to 'normal' time.

You notice I said 'here in New South Wales' as not all Oz states go by the same time.

And since we retired we go by our own household time!

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 05:50 AM

If we kept "summertime" in winter, there would be fewer road deaths, especially children.
This was proved when we actually tried it.
Unfortunately the Scots don't like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 05:56 AM

conversely, the lack of sunlight in the evenings contributing to more accidents.

Therefore, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (Rospa) has been calling for 'single-double summer time', which would add two hours instead of one and result in darker mornings and lighter evenings. The proposals would equalise GMT with Central European Time.

This method was piloted between 1968 and 1971, and some findings estimated 2,500 deaths and serious injuries occurred each year as a result. However, Government research revealed public support for the measure to be adopted. Rospa claims that recent research reveals the adoption of single-double summer time would result in 450 less road deaths and serious injuries.

However, the proposals were heavily defeated by MPs, with particular lobbying from agricultural groups and Scottish farmers,
http://www.politics.co.uk/briefings-guides/issue-briefs/british-summer-time-bst--$366653.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 04:13 PM

I was about to make the same comment, Keith. Having it darker in the mornings when folk are freshly awake is far better than having it darker in the evening and the number of road accidents reduced when the double summertime was used NOT increased. I would support moving to an hour forward all year as in France. Currently its dark going and coming home from work in the Winter so why not give us an extra hour of daylight each evening and make it safer for the kids!

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 05:34 PM

Time keeping in Alaska has an interesting history. Until recent years the powers that be tried to stay in tune with America's west coast.

But it made no sense. It would be light in Alaska when it was dead night in Oregon and California- and vice versa- and the clock insisted it was the same hour.

Nowadays, Alaska has four time zones of its own, called 'Alaska Time'. The farthest west zone is the same as the time in Hawaii.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 08:29 PM

Why don't we all just go to bed between 8 & 9 p.m., and get up between 3 & 4 a.m., standard time, according to our needs? Then we'd have the maximum use of daylight all year round, without having to fool ourselves in the summer.

Answer, IMO: Because staying up late proves we're grown up.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 03:09 PM

And unfortunately we have to be at work?

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 03:21 PM

I think it is one of the stupedist ideas we have come up with..perhaps a justificaiton in wartime when there was not widespread electric lighting in some areas, but how in the world can we justify it now? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: LadyJean
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 12:38 AM

Daylight savings time used to start in April. This year it started in March. Which is why instead of being 15 minutes early for church last Sunday I was 45 minutes late.

Some states in the U.S. ignore Daylight Savings Time, which makes things really confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 12:29 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jisqle37uWI

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:15 PM

I HATE DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME!

Just so you'll know.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:29 PM

It's great to have been able to go for a walk in the evening after supper last night. I love it.

Subject: RE: BS: Daylight Savings? Uh, right...
From: Bettynh
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 03:53 PM

I had to get out a piece of paper to remember what we went through when we went to Chile to see a solar eclipse in 1994. The eclipse was in the first week of Nov., so we had just turned out clocks back to standard time. When we arrived in Chile, they had just turned their clocks forward for daylight savings. BUT despite being directly south of Boston, Chile shares a time zone one slot to the east (known as Atlantic Time Zone to me, but since it's on the Pacific Coast, I don't really know what they call it.) After the eclipse, we travelled to Peru, which is closer to the equator, doesn't do daylight savings, and is in the same time zone as the eastern US. Fortunately, we had an astronomer along to get us to the eclipse view on time. I see that Chile, which recently suffered a major blackout on top of the earthquake, has extended daylight savings till April.