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BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94....
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Feb 16 - 03:18 AM "Sinn Fein/IRA" Much of this dates back to the campaign carried out by Ireland's leading parties a year or so ago to check the rise in popularity of Sinn Fein among the electorate, Up to the revelations of mass clerical abuse in Ireland, Irish politicians and the establishment were aware of what was happening and did nothing to stop clerical abuse - that's what happens when religion and politics become inseparable. Britain has also had several cases of politicians and members of The Establishment getting away with accusations of abuse - politicians tend to look after their own and their parties - that's politics for you. Just come back from seeing the remarkable new film 'Spotlight' set around the exposure of clerical abuse in Boston by the Boston Globe - every bit as essential as Mea Culpa. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Amos Date: 07 Feb 16 - 12:44 AM The first moment when an arbitrary datum is thrown into a problem or a sdolution, the issue represented by that problem or solution becomes more complex and less solveable. This issue has been wildly complicated by (a)Authoritarian doctrine such as papal or biblical decrees introducing data that do not align or make sense (b) arbitrariness such as codes of rightness and wrongness based not on native ethics but on authority (c) Data which when looked for is not found to exist. So it is little wonder that the situation looks complex and hard to understand. There is a set of data which derives from natural physical and /or spiritual laws. Departures from natural laws breeds complexity and impenetrability in problems and solutions. The rest is left ads an exercise to the student seeking understanding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: GUEST,mg Date: 07 Feb 16 - 12:29 AM there are several things going on right now. first of all the pope wants us to be nice to lutherans. fine. i will do that and throw in some unitarians. there is the peter saunders case. there is the irish priest in florida who went to the police about an indian priest who showed child pornography to a teen. bishop says he is a liar and mentally ill and the diocese went to the police first. i will say the priest seemed to cross police boundaries by doing his own investigation first it seems..then there is the handicapped seminarian whom the fbi caught trying to buy or adopt a mexican baby for the purpose of raping her. have we heard one word from the pope or a bishop ..other than the one who called the irish priest a liar..or a cardinal..not that i have come across. there is stuff going on in guam, chile, germany. it is all totally sick and corrupt and rotten to the core. oh i did assemble the cd and did get it out to some survivors but not enough..how can i getit on internet so i can just give them a link... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Feb 16 - 07:04 PM Peter Saunders is somebody inside the church with guts: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35514071 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:54 PM Would you classify This as abuse?? Not exactly 'clerical'...but clearly political...for a T shirt company... GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Oct 14 - 11:30 AM Sinn Fein/IRA are accused of the same behaviour they were so outraged by in the Catholic Church. Irish Times yesterday. "There were tense exchanges in the Dáil when the Taoiseach turned Leaders' Questions back on Adams, challenging him to confirm if he knew if Cahill had been required to attend in a room with three men and her abuser. He also asked Adams if he was aware of people being moved to the Republic, having been involved in sexual abuse in the North. An angry Adams denied the "allegations that have been made about me and about Sinn Féin members who assure me that all they did, in their engagements, conversations and their work with Maíria Cahill, was to help her". Later, in a statement, Adams apologised to victims of abuse who were let down or failed by the IRA's inability to resolve these issues. He said those who wish to should report complaints to the appropriate authorities, North or South." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: GUEST,mg Date: 27 Jun 12 - 03:40 PM here is an article I came upon...mostly about how they sent Jesuit pedophiles to Alaska. I was familiar with Father Toulouse... http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-pedophiles-paradise/Content?oid=1065017 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: GUEST,mg Date: 27 Jun 12 - 03:11 PM There are too many scandals to prop up any more. Note how quickly a bishop cavorting on a beach (not that that is in itself a scandal) is gone compared to those who covered up, enabled, possibly practiced child abuse themselves...we need to really really understand what is going on and it is endemic and very very protected. Why? How did it get to be a protected activity? mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: ollaimh Date: 27 Jun 12 - 11:22 AM the attempt to bankrupt snap will back fire and make even more people thing ther bishops council is stafed by evil men, monsignior lynn was just convicted of child endangermanr in pennslyvannia.he covered up priestly abuse and sent them to new parrishes with no warning, his defense was the cardinal made him do it. the eichmann defense. the lynn conviction is hopefully the neginning of the end. there are similar investigations going on in many states and other countries. after a few dozen enablers go to jail maybe they will take the issue seriously. the cstholic church has proved it will not govern itself so it's up tp others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Jack Campin Date: 26 Jun 12 - 09:34 PM Meanwhile: if you're a bishop and get caught snogging a woman on a beach, you're out of a job in a week: the sacking of Bishop Bargallo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: mg Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:22 PM The truth has to come out and those who try to stop it will have to face their maker same as the rest of us...I would not want to be in their place on judgement day. I have two songs about this I think in DT and maybe further up this thread..one is called Boston Grandmother I think to tune of Boston Burglar and one is Boys of Mount Cashel. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: GUEST Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:33 PM The latest atrocity is the orchestrated attempt by the bishops to bankrupt the leading victims advocate group, SNAP. They seek nothing more than to silence victims and to put them in fear of coming together or of working together for justice. Shameful! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: GUEST,mg Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:17 PM I probably said it before..know I have..but remember the handsome Cuban priest..Father Cutie I think his name really was..he had a TV and/or radio show..fell in love, frolicked on the beach with a woman..it took the Vatican about 3 days to get rid of him..how long does it take to get rid of someone abusing boys? Or girls? Decades? What is going on? I know it is not just the priests...it is the parents who raised them on orders from on high...a sick culture combined with poverty combined with threats of damnation and belief that somehow someone in authority must know what they are doing...I was raised to be this way..hopefully I escaped it..but a combination of a religiously narcisstic mother and a sick institution..plus we had a notorious priest in our parish..it is not hard at all for me to see how these priests are produced. But I can not understand why they are or were kept in places they could keep on offending..who creates the bishops? Who created this pope? mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Jack Campin Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:50 PM Think the bottom of the barrel has been scraped? ... think again. The Catholic Church in the Netherlands got boys castrated for going to to the police about being raped: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17453849 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:08 PM The saga continues. Pope Benedict has now, in a move that is seen as a slap on the wrist of Archbishop Diarmuid Martin who called for accountability, rejected the resignation of Bishops Raymond Field and Eamonn Walsh. Both men tendered their resignation in the wake of the Murphy report. Report in The Irish Times |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jul 10 - 03:01 PM Interesting letter in the Irish Times on the subject last week, summarised; "Given the revelations of child abuse - why on earth should any sensible woman WANT to be a priest?" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: GUEST,mg Date: 25 Jul 10 - 02:44 PM It does seem a little perplexing that they can slough off all those awful things, barely acknowledge the Inquisition etc., and get apoplectic about bishops ordaining women..big story in Oregonian today about women priests. Sinead O'Connor was ordained some time ago. It is not a particular ax I have to grind with the church whether women are ordained or not, but it is very important to some people. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Amos Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:16 AM It is curious how these hierarchical, paternalistic, abusive structures emerge from the chaos of human society, corral their share of minions, and harness their energies, for better or worse, into perpetuating the hierarchy and the authority. Monarchies, Popery, professorships in large universities, and military hierarchies have similar patterns. Of course, some of these organizations have used their combined resources to do some good things, but the salient ugly accomplishments--child abuse, wars, crusades, inter-group hatreds--definitely seem to outweigh the grandiose accomplishments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Ed T Date: 25 Jul 10 - 09:55 AM The LAURIE GOODSTEIN and DAVID M. HALBFINGER articles referred to in the link I provided below. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/16/world/europe/16vatican.html?ref=laurie_goodstein http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/world/europe/02pope.html?ref=laurie_goodstein |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Ed T Date: 25 Jul 10 - 09:49 AM Vatican equates pedophilia with the ordination of women? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/opinion/18dowd.html?_r=1&ref=maureendowd |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Jul 10 - 04:45 PM I dunno, Jack. I can't find much information corroborating the Liebreich book, other than an endorsements at ianpaisley.org and similar anti-Catholic Websites. Amazon cites Liebreich's credentials:
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Jack Campin Date: 09 Jul 10 - 01:14 PM I came across this book today: Karen Liebreich: Fallen Order Describes how a similar crisis arose in the 17th century and how the Church dealt with it then (not very well). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Jul 10 - 01:05 AM ollaimh says: i would like to remind people that child molestation is criminal and evil. that covering up and protecting child molestors is criminal and evil
ollaimh also says: and further that caling the victums bigots is almost as evil
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: ollaimh Date: 06 Jul 10 - 08:43 PM i noticed that this year the papal state police and the italian police didn't arrest the canadian natves and natives friends during their protest for the return of their dead childrens remains. they have been asking for the return of theirdead childrens remains for years and in the last fewyears they were arrested every year. i guess that the italian press are noticing and the vatican realizes that they can't fight on all fronts at once. at least fifty thousand native children died of preventable diseases in residential schools, with death rate of about fifty per cent. the school senior inspector a dr bryce called the situation "criminal" and he was duly drummed from the civil service. amazingly then church authorities sasy they don't know what happened to these children who were their legal wards. the canadian group performed an exorcismin st peters square as they do every year.first time they were not arrested. i can't imagine the wickedness and evil of people who won't even give the dead chldren back to their relatives for burrial, and have no cemetaries of their own. i'm told the situation is similar in the united states but we know the children were forced into these schools and never returned, fifty thousand at least, possibly three times that, no one responsible thought it mattered to count natives. but then these natives are probably bigots |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Greg B Date: 06 Jul 10 - 04:45 PM I would commend to you the following charity: http://www.road-to-recovery.org/ Two of my priest friends founded it. Both have been tireless advocates for survivors. One, Rev. Bob Hoatson is a survivor of abuse by Catholic Clergy. Both have gotten into considerable hot water. They are dedicated to giving direct and material help to survivors of abuse by clergy and religous who are in need. They'll pay the rent--- drive them to appointments, help them find therapy or legal representation. Whatever is needed at the time. Believe me, their view of the whole situation is much more aligned with those who've been accused, here and elsewhere, of being 'bigoted' or 'anti-Catholic/anti-Christian/anti-Religion.' And they're priests. One in "good standing" the other suspended because he dared to sue his own diocese for the abuses he suffered and for their conspiracy to cover it up and to destroy him because he told the truth. But they're doing good, direct, work with survivors in need. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: ollaimh Date: 06 Jul 10 - 02:09 PM and what was the comment about trolls about ? akenaton? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: ollaimh Date: 06 Jul 10 - 02:04 PM i would like to remind people that child molestation is criminal and evil. that covering up and protecting child molestors is criminal and evil and further that caling the victums bigots is almost as evil the catholic church has covered up these abuses in every country they operate in. if they ever want a claim to spiritual authority they have to stop blaming the victums( a priest in nova scotia recently said again the milestors are often seduced-amazing). and start bringing criminal charges and opening all records to the public authorities. the last will never be done , unfortunately. t this day the catholic church withholds their own evidence of abuses from the civil authorities. this is criminal and evil. just because the powerfull can get away with flouting the law, does not make it right to do so |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Ed T Date: 04 Jul 10 - 10:35 AM Pope launches team to 're-evangelise' the West http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/the-pope/7861377/Pope-launches-team-to-re-evangelise-the-West.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: akenaton Date: 04 Jul 10 - 04:03 AM Where's all the brave troll hunters today then? Is it only those who disagree with our particular views who qualify as "trolls"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: ollaimh Date: 03 Jul 10 - 10:21 PM one more point, the rral delusions of the enablers and apologists are revealed by their thought that people are attacking the catholic church(and other churcjes), they are not, they are defending themselves. the powerfull usually get away with any behavior towards the weal poor disenfranchised and young , but occasionally the above victums rise up and resist. in greater and greater numbers. it can be ugly. the abused are often warped and permanently traumatized by the abuse and oppression but when they resist the real face of the abusive appears. its the power full who are bing discriminated aginst, its the empires that are being abused. in fact poor weak yong and disenfranchised people are resisting their oppression. an oppression that has gone on for centuries and towards the hundreds of thousands. its hard to see things from the point of view of the disenfranchised but that is the essential message of christ. take on the sins of the world. accept responsibility , accept the suffering. don't demonize the resisters who are just defending themselves from the in excusable |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: ollaimh Date: 03 Jul 10 - 09:38 PM the people who are expressing their anger at the catholic church are not bigots. in fact joe your stated efforts to deal with the problems seem to me to have been a total failure due to your delusional thinking. the catholic church(along with otherts) has engaged in genocide and physical and sexual abuse on a mass scale in many countries with almost np attempt to discipline this behavior untill outside authorities have forced them to respond. the suffering of the victus makes them very vunerable to attacks like joes unwarranted accusations of bigotry. the real bigots are the racisists and sexists and autority abusers in the catholic church and if you don't see that you are the problem joe. catholics with their heads in the sand. as i said i saw a public discussion in ontario by catholics saying they have to stop talking for three year and listen, listen listen. you are excusing and enabling genocide sexual perversion and you accusations and response couldn't be more despicable nor more fundamentally evil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Smokey. Date: 25 May 10 - 08:16 PM I suppose I meant whoever sends the instructions out telling bishops to keep quiet about reported cases of child abuse, etc. My point, mostly in answer to mg's post, was that in my opinion ordinary innocent Catholics should not feel they are in any way to blame. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Joe Offer Date: 25 May 10 - 06:49 PM Well, the bishops are the hierarchy. The bureaucracy in Rome is the Curia - but they are supposed to be subordinate to the bishops. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Smokey. Date: 25 May 10 - 01:29 PM It looks to me like the church hierarchy enabled and instructed instructed the bishops to do the covering up. It's quite possible that even some of the offending priests were not aware of that at the time. In theory, we elect (and pay) governments and local authorities to be responsible for the supervision of the offending establishments. We pay dearly for a justice system to deal with those who slip through the net. We give up a slice of our freedom for these things. Whilst I can appreciate, in Christian terms, why the church would pray for the perpetrators and facilitators, the view from the outside seems to be that they are merely praying for themselves and the church. It should be a strictly private thing, confined to the the mind of the individual doing the praying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: mg Date: 25 May 10 - 05:06 AM I don't know...keep them separate but we have all enabled the bishops to do what they do by our passivity and fear. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 25 May 10 - 03:04 AM "praying for both the victims and the perpetrators of crime." That's fine, but not in the exact same breath because it implies a parity between the victim and the perpetrator. A Priest might feel that both need prayers equally. Strictly in terms of *spiritual* ministering - if there is any power of intercession - they might be right at that after all it's the abuser (and those who enabled him) who has corrupted himself spiritually. But to do so publicly rubs salt in the wound for the abused. Prayers for perpetrators can be done separately or not publicly at all. In fact I'd say prayers for the Catholic Priests and Bishops who enabled them, is an internal Church matter. It aught not be for the congregation to spiritually minister to the Church and its sins IMO, but the other way around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Smokey. Date: 25 May 10 - 12:43 AM It's gone very quiet all of a sudden around here.. Must be the weather or something.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Joe Offer Date: 24 May 10 - 08:54 PM In the U.S., there are two organizations who have proven their credibility in representing victims in the child molestation scandal:
Oh....and click here to access the page on the Frontline television program called The Hand of God, priest sexual abuse from the victim's point of view. The question of how to show sympathy to victims of sexual abuse is a tough one. I have had several situations, mostly in my work as a government investigator, when somebody has revealed being a victim of a sexual offense. I found it hard to know what to say, until I figured out that all they wanted me to do was listen. So, I learned to listen, and to ask questions that enabled the person to say more. It was a funny feeling, being a government investigator doing exactly was I was supposed to be doing for my employer, and yet being able to help victims of crimes by just listening sympathetically. I know of Catholic dioceses that have had "reconciliation and healing" gatherings for victims of priest sexual abuse. These gatherings were well-received. Another tough question was brought up above - praying for both the victims and the perpetrators of crime. Sister Helen Prejean (Dead Man Walking) struggled with that problem in her death row ministry in Louisiana. She didn't find any easy answers, but she continued to minister to inmates and then began to also minister to their victims. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Smokey. Date: 24 May 10 - 07:54 PM Correction, their sort-code seems to be wrong. I've emailed them for some details. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Smokey. Date: 24 May 10 - 07:36 PM Oh well, do it yourself, Smokey. Here we go: The Alliance Victim Support Group I've just transferred my donation - who's next? How to donate. As we say in these parts, 'put yer brass where yer gobs are'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Smokey. Date: 24 May 10 - 05:52 PM Good songs, Bob & MG. These victims need moral and financial support to fight their court battles. Does anyone know the name or have any contact details of the people/charity/group in Ireland who are organising that? There are plenty more battles to be fought in Ireland and elsewhere yet, and these poor sods need to know that there are people out here who actually care enough to do more than just shout on internet forums. They are up against one of the most powerful organisations in the world, don't forget. I don't care if you're Catholics, Methodists Buddhists, devil worshippers or cheese-fanciers: - Get your hands in your pockets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Bob the Postman Date: 24 May 10 - 09:20 AM Check out the song in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: mg Date: 24 May 10 - 02:07 AM I just found out about a song by a Hanrahan who sang with Ronnie Drew. In The garden of roses Where you came by Beautiful roses The eyes of a child In Your secret desire You cut it all down Now petals lay scattered on tainted ground in the garden of roses beautiful roses how your temple has fallen The walls cave in we witness the sanctum in their evil sin but a river once frozen deep in the mind flows on like a river should in the eyes of a child in a garden of roses beautiful roses in the garden of roses where you came by In the Garden of Roses beautiful roses In the Garden of Roses A river once frozen Down deep in the mind Flows on like a river should In the eyes of a child In the garden of roses Beautiful roses In the garden of roses Beautiful roses |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Smokey. Date: 23 May 10 - 09:31 PM Another possible idea might be some sort of mp3 download site where members can upload tracks they want to contribute, or pay a bit per track to download, the proceeds going directly to the charity. That could also serve (at the very least) as a sort of music-exchange for Mudcatters to be able to hear each other's stuff, and with a far greater choice of material. It might generate more than selling a CD, and with much less capital outlay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: mg Date: 23 May 10 - 07:57 PM We should have a really beautiful Latin hymn..Panis Angelicus as sung by local Catholics..not the tune others sing..and maybe the Memorare. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Ed T Date: 23 May 10 - 07:14 PM A great idea |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: mg Date: 23 May 10 - 07:12 PM It should be in several languages I would think..English, German, Gaelic, one of the African ones, Spanish and Tagalog at the very least. I was thinking something more along the lines of giving the survivors a CD or being able to download but a contribution for others to buy would not be a bad idea. I don't know what kind of songs would be appropriate either...some angry, some comforting I would think. I know a beautiful one..well, a bit of it, about the abuse of a baby..my Dancing Darling...doesn't specify what the abuse was. Are there many songs? I know of mine, to the tune of Boston Burglar, and it seems Sinead O'connor might have one but I really don't know of any. l mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Smokey. Date: 23 May 10 - 06:29 PM Maybe we should make a free CD for people who were abused. mg What a truly noble thought, mg. Might I suggest a fund-raiser-compilation, marketed via Mudcat, all profits to one or more of the independent victim support charities? As a gesture to the victims, I would also suggest all contributions should be anonymous in order to demonstrate that no self-promotion is involved and that the aim is publicity for the victims as a whole and not the individual artists. However, I am willing to contribute on any basis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Smokey. Date: 23 May 10 - 05:09 PM Regarding sympathy, I would have thought that a fair number of victims would be embarrassed by 'one to one' sympathy, particularly from a stranger. It must have been tremendously hard for some of those victims to come forward as they did, and I'm sure they were doing it for justice and to expose the system that did it to them, with a view to preventing further abuses and promoting a wider recognition of what has been a lesser-known aspect of the Catholic church. I doubt very much if a desire for sympathy entered into it. Perhaps a good job really, considering some of the more hurtful stuff that has been said by representatives of the church. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical child abuse Part 94.... From: Ed T Date: 23 May 10 - 09:28 AM As to celebacy, it is very accurate that this alone did not make child sex abusers. However, I suggest that limiting full representation of all sectors of the population into the most important part of the church, including the RC hierarchy, played a big part in creating the climate where child sex abusers got into the church and did their criminal acts throughout many years.If many people alike Joe O had felt at home and became priests...and could have began to influence the RC hierarchy and it s thinking....I suspect this church would not be in the same situation where it is today. A seed can fall on a rock and not germinate. But, if the right conditions eist, the seed, good or bad trives, grows and spreads. |