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Folk Rap?

Dave the Gnome 08 Jan 13 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,CatAlyst 08 Jan 13 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 08 Nov 11 - 07:52 AM
Acorn4 06 Nov 11 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Paul Slade 06 Nov 11 - 07:33 AM
GUEST, CRAZY 05 Nov 11 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,Desi C 04 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM
GUEST,unfitforit 03 Dec 10 - 10:16 PM
Ron Davies 03 Apr 10 - 11:00 AM
Phil Cooper 03 Apr 10 - 10:03 AM
autoharpbob 03 Apr 10 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,Neil D 02 Apr 10 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,Ralf Weihrauch 01 Apr 10 - 04:13 AM
Mavis Enderby 01 Apr 10 - 02:29 AM
Mavis Enderby 01 Apr 10 - 02:27 AM
olddude 31 Mar 10 - 06:40 PM
olddude 31 Mar 10 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Billy 30 Mar 10 - 12:34 AM
GUEST 29 Mar 10 - 05:32 PM
Mavis Enderby 29 Mar 10 - 04:16 PM
Mr Fox 29 Mar 10 - 09:38 AM
Banjiman 29 Mar 10 - 07:04 AM
Banjiman 29 Mar 10 - 07:00 AM
Ruth Archer 29 Mar 10 - 06:32 AM
mattkeen 29 Mar 10 - 06:22 AM
matt milton 29 Mar 10 - 05:55 AM
mattkeen 29 Mar 10 - 05:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Mar 10 - 04:15 AM
michaelr 28 Mar 10 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,Billy 28 Mar 10 - 08:26 PM
mikesamwild 28 Mar 10 - 06:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Mar 10 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Billy 28 Mar 10 - 12:42 AM
mikesamwild 27 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM
greg stephens 27 Mar 10 - 01:39 PM
mikesamwild 27 Mar 10 - 01:25 PM
brezhnev 27 Mar 10 - 12:58 PM
Les from Hull 27 Mar 10 - 11:03 AM
Les from Hull 27 Mar 10 - 11:01 AM
Bettynh 27 Mar 10 - 10:59 AM
mikesamwild 27 Mar 10 - 10:51 AM
Bettynh 27 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM
NormanD 27 Mar 10 - 07:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Mar 10 - 06:38 AM
NormanD 27 Mar 10 - 06:31 AM
Bettynh 26 Mar 10 - 08:14 PM
Steve Hunt 26 Mar 10 - 07:34 PM
Jack Campin 26 Mar 10 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,Jonny Sunshine 26 Mar 10 - 04:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 10:21 AM

Nice to see this thread resurrected and I would have liked to have seen the French Folk / Rap but the link doesn't work :-( Any chance of checking it for us CatAlyst?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,CatAlyst
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 09:27 AM

Whilst not traditional American folk music/ rap, there's a French group called Manau who've released 2 albums that combine French folk tunes with modern scratches and rap over the music. One example's Qui est la Balette? which samples a Bretagne folk song called 'La Jument de Michao'. The lyrics refer to the original's lyrics.

Also maybe Rybak/Opptur's 'Fela igjen' counts?


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 08 Nov 11 - 07:52 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvNLv5NEmM0


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Nov 11 - 08:13 AM

Try listening to the latest songs of Pete Morton - he describes it as "frapping" and it's well worth a listen if you can get to one of his gigs.

If "folk rapping" = frapping, whay then is country rapping?


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,Paul Slade
Date: 06 Nov 11 - 07:33 AM

Nu-folk's Jeffrey Lewis has a fun little bonus track called Mosquito Rap on his latest album "A Turn In The Dream Songs". He raps the tale fast and fluently over a very simple drum backing, punching home the rhythm of all its key syllables just as a black rapper would.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST, CRAZY
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 05:04 PM

WHEN I DIE SHOW NO PITTY SEND MY SON TO GANSTA CITY DIG A HOLE 6 FEET DEEP LAY 2 SHOT GUNS ACROSS MY CHEST AND TELL MY FOLKS I DID MY BEST


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM

For me it's not Folk, yet anyway. I imagine in the 60's Folkies wouldn't have believed The Beatles woulld be in Folk clubs, b ut I've heard 3 Beatles numbers in the last week in the clubs. Whether Rap should be termed 'music' though is questionable. I find much of it not musical at all, more a form of speed poetry. And with only a few exceptions, most Rappers have very poor diction often burying the Microphone (and lyrics) in their mouths, and Folk music is largely about the Words. But who knows in 20 years time you might hear it in Folk Clubs, there's little else in the 'pop' field worth remembering


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,unfitforit
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 10:16 PM

what about astronautalis "you and your good ideas" album?


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 11:00 AM

That Carolina Chocolate Drops song is just dynamite. Gotta see them--even if she sang, not rapped, the song.

Other possibilities--definition of "folk" is wide open as far as I'm concerned:



"Cash for the merchandise...." --(opening piece from "Music Man")--definitely not sung

Country-blues related stuff like "Hot Rod Lincoln" and its predecessors, songs by "Arkie Shipley" about car races

Piece by a local DC group, the Pheremones, about 30 years ago, resurrected by me and my wife:   "Cicada Serenade"--a rap about cicadas.   We've gotten a huge amount of mileage out of it--even got a "Nigel" in the MIddle Bar.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:03 AM

The song Crocodile Man by Dave Carter. You can see youtube version's that he and Tracy Grammer did or a good one done by Chris Smither.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: autoharpbob
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:06 AM

Loved the CCD!
Strange nobody has mentioned Benjamin Zephaniah on "The Imagined Village" retelling the story of Tam Lyn. Personally I always skip this track though, so it doesn't work for me!


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:16 AM

Ralf, I liked that a lot. Reminds me of the way Shaggy would interweave his West Indian vocalizing into pop songs.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,Ralf Weihrauch
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 04:13 AM

Hello Folk and Rap works.

This is from my Album Hole in One!

Ralf Weihrauch & Dr. Ring Ding The Unfortunate Tailor


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:29 AM

...and on the subject of beatboxing, it strikes me as not a million miles from eephing, which was discussed here last year.

Pete.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:27 AM

Olddude - sounds fantastic, and reminds me I need to get out playing more instead of reading Mudcat!

Guest (Banjiman?): "a great Old Time Blues Drinking song"

Well I'll have to look that up, three of my favorite things in one!

Pete.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: olddude
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 06:40 PM

I will say this, they played me one of their rap song on their Ipod, I didn't care for it at all , it was way too close to gansta rap ... but it was fun what they did on my song. Wish I had a recorder so you could have heard that ... very interesting indeed ...


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: olddude
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 06:14 PM

Ok, I swear this just happened to me, It is really nice today, so after I ate supper I went over the park and was sitting on a bench playing my guitar. Four young kids came over and was listening and one of them said did you write that song, I said yes it is called Chasing the Wind, they asked if they could sing along, I said sure and did it again. The two black guys had made a rap CD and write rap music ... in between verses to my song they were rapping lines like "and your breaking my heart, breaking my mind etc while I was picking the song on the guitar... I have to tell you it was the coolest thing I have heard in a long time ... I am on record for not liking rap but this was just fun and it was cool

Go figure, I loved the sound ... I did .... maybe there is something to it ...


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:34 AM

As a three piece band that did a lot of a-capella stuff, we were challenged to take on a piece called "Geograhical Fugue" by Ernst Toch whih would qualify as early rap. (For speaking chorus ger. "Gesprochene Musik"). It is in four parts but I reduced it down to three for us. It took about six months of practice before we were ever able to perform it live and never without the 12 pages of sheet music.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 05:32 PM

Pete,

CCDs are great, Genuine Negro Jig is a fine, fine album, buy it!

Have you found the CCD "Jack of Diamonds" video on You Tube yet? (Nothing to do with Folk Rap, just a great Old Time Blues Drinking song!). I know you'll like it.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 04:16 PM

Banjiman - thanks for the CCD link - can't get enough! ;-)

Ruth - looking forward to seeing the Demon Barbers at Southwell FF this year. There's enough of a taster on this promo vid (about a minute in) to whet my appetite!

Cheers,

Pete.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Mr Fox
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 09:38 AM

Tickled Pink rap a couple of verses of 'When the King Enjoys His Own Again' on their first album.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 07:04 AM

I can actually spell Chocolate!


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 07:00 AM

"Off on a slight tangent - I've sometimes thought that Beatboxing could work really well on some folk songs/tunes. Anyone know any examples?"


Carolina Chocalate Drops....... they have it down to a tee.

Hit 'Em Up Style by CCD


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 06:32 AM

The Streets' A Grand Don't Come For Free: White, working-class rap concept album. A thing of brilliance. And contemporary folk music, as far as I'm concerned.





"Off on a slight tangent - I've sometimes thought that Beatboxing could work really well on some folk songs/tunes. Anyone know any examples?"

Check out recent work by the Demon Barber Road Show.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: mattkeen
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 06:22 AM

I ment to say what mattmilton jusr said


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: matt milton
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 05:55 AM

I don't think melody is "the" defining element of music, so much as one among a number of defining factors. For me, music's anything I choose to listen to as music.

But even in purely conventional terms, to foreground melody is to forget about percussion-led music. A drum solo is music, even if it's not pitched notes. (Though of course drum hits do have a pitch of sorts - as rendered explicit by drumers of the calibre of Max Roach.)

Most hip-hop does have some kind of tune behind it, especially the commercial chart stuff. But even the hardcore, minimal stuff that's little more than drum hits, a bit of bass and a 'spoken' vocal is still undoubtedly music. To suggest otherwise is like saying a samba troupe isn't music, or that a tabla player isn't playing music.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: mattkeen
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 05:26 AM

roots music from anywhere is more often than not, at its core,

words + rhythm

or

rhythm


To say a type of expression is not really music because of the lack of variation in melody is absurd. You don't have to like it


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 04:15 AM

because it lacks that defining element - a melody.

Not realy true, Michael. There is often a very strong melody underlining the words and beat. Have a listen to the Shallow Brown Rap Greg pointed to earlier. I know it is not all the same and an 'unaccompanied' Rap would not have what you would call a melody but I think that would qualify more as poetry than music anyway.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 09:37 PM

Sharon Shannon's "Libertango" album begins with a tune called "The Whitestrand Sling" and closes with the same tune overlaid by a (very positive) rap called "What You Make It". You can sample both here.

http://www.legalsounds.com/download-mp3/sharon-shannon/libertango/the-whitestrand-sling/song_1414088

That said, I think that while folk is undoubtedly music, rap qualifies not so much, because it lacks that defining element - a melody.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:26 PM

DeG
LJ has four CDs but this piece isn't on any of them. All four are great CDs tho.
You might be able to contact him via his web site http://www.ljbooth.com/ here


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 06:52 AM

Dig it! Kumbaya Nyahhhh!


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 06:07 AM

Any recordings of it anywhare, Billy? I can find LJ Booth on YouTube but not this song:-( If you know him maybe get him to put it on YT?

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 12:42 AM

LJ Booth (a brilliant songwriter/ singer / guitarist out of Wisconsin) wrote the perfect Folk Rap song. Using the back of his guitar to provide a drumbeat he sings (or raps).

Folk Rap (LJ Booth)

Gimme that guitar; I'll show you how to use it. I play a funky thing they call folk music.
KingstonTrio, Serendipity, Peter, Paul and Mary, just to name three.
They sing about the dead and the big Grand Canyon, they made a lot of money on "Prairie Home Companion".
Anglo Saxon, protestant white, at a hootenanny, hootenanny Saturday night.

Talkin' folk rap, can you dig it? Folk rap,Mm! get down! Folk rap!

Cool war's ragin' Johnny has to go. Would you let me go with you says "No, Johnny, No Johnny, Uh, Uh No!"

If you miss the train I'm on you know that I am gone. You can hear the whistle blow a hundred miles.
But I'm one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen hundred miles from my home.
Take away eight hundred miles and I'm five hundred miles from my home.

Good God y'all! Michael row the boat ashore, Alelue, Allelue, Michael row the boat ashore Allelujah!
If I had a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning, I'd hammer in the evening, I'd hammer on your face!

Puff! Puff! Puff! Puff! Puff! Puff! Puff! Puff! Puff the magic dragon lived by the sea
Frolicked in the Autumn in a land called Honalee.
Little Jackie Paper he loved that rascal Puff but Jackie split the scene and Puff got in a huff,

Doin' folk rap! Can you dig it? Folk rap! Hmm! Get Down!Folk rap! Ooh! Bobby Dylan, now, Folk rap! yeah, Kumbayah


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM

Nice link Greg, thanks. Have you tried many other shanties in the same way? since the Carolina Chocolate Drops started revisiting black fusion music i'll be interested to see what develops.

I've not been too convinced by Living Village and Edward II hybrids but always intrigued by revivals that can be so productive.
I always used to enjoy singing the shanty 'Roll her down the bay to Juliana' with just a Bodhran accompanimant. It went nicely into 'Blue Suede Shoes' as well!


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM

That is brilliant, Greg. I Love it. I know some won't but bugger 'em:-)

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 01:39 PM

I have been involved in a lot of rap/traditional folk based proejects. If you have a glance at the Boat Band Myspace , you should find a choice of 6 tunes to listen to...you may have to scroll up and down the song list to find the one you're looking for. Anyway, the one entitled "Rap Shallow Brown"(or possibly Shallow Brown Rap I can't remember) has the young black Rhythm'n'Grime artists I-Deal and MC Meistro with the fairly old and white Boat Band doing an acoustic rap relook at the old shanty. We have done a lot of very rewarding and interesting collaborations like this. Rap comes very directly from Bahamian(and other) folk song techniques, so it is quite easy to reintegrate the forms in a lot of ways. We have done much more hardcore computery DJ type stuff, but this clip is quite a gentle introduction to the field.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 01:25 PM

Thanks Les that's it. Like that old rap the local Anglo Saxons in the building trade or steel works use ' F' the f'in f'er it's f'in F'd. F' it!!' Every element of language is there!

So what's assonance?


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: brezhnev
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 12:58 PM

Don't know if these by Martyn Bennett qualify, but they're fab anyway:

Hallaig

Soryteller

Floret Silva Undique


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:03 AM

Oh that's called Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse Mike.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:01 AM

Lancashire competitive dance, as recorded by Bill Tidy in Private Eye The Cloggies


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Bettynh
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 10:59 AM

Dave Van Ronk's "Cocaine Blues" is purely spoken, although Rev. Gary Davis's accompanyment is distinctive. Dave wrote that the reverend couldn't bring himself to actually sing the tune if there ever was one, considering the subject matter.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 10:51 AM

I've just added Countbittin and Beschittin to my vocab for when I'm ranting at the neighbours' cat when it craps in our garden!


I love the use of words n rap that are not conventionally poetry but quick and off the top to drive it along. Gil Scott Heron is a great exponent of the form

Often just the last syllable or a vague similarity eg Apple, Shortfall, Temple, Parental, Non judgemental. I'm going mental. It's so simple .
I also like the old Anglo Saxon type use of words starting with the same letter ( what's that called?)

yet effective and throws up some great images.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Bettynh
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM

How about "Big Bad John" written by Johnny Cash, sung by Jimmy Dean:

Every mornning at the mine, you could see him arrive.
He stood 6 foot 6, weighed 245.
Kind of broad at the shoulders, narrow at the hip.
And everybody knew you didn't give no lip to Big John


And "A Boy Named Sue" written by Shel Silverstein and sung by Johnny Cash:

My daddy left home when I was three
And he didn't leave much to ma and me
Just this old guitar and an empty bottle of booze.
Now, I don't blame him cause he run and hid
But the meanest thing that he ever did
Was before he left, he went and named me "Sue."


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: NormanD
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:09 AM

The demo version (on that bootleg box set) brings it out much more


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 06:38 AM

Not sure abount any local competitive song or poetry but there is certainly competitive dance in Lancashire. Both individual clog and North West Morris are, or were, very competitive. From my Cossack background I understand that the young men of the village used to try and outdo each other in dance as well - To catch the eye of the prettiest girls.

I'm not sure if the above is rap, Norman, or just Dylan's voice! :-)

DeG


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: NormanD
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 06:31 AM

Johnny's in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I'm on the pavement
Thinking 'bout the government.....


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Bettynh
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:14 PM

John McCutcheon's "It's the Economy, Stupid" sounds like rap to me, though with a jazzy flavor.


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Steve Hunt
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 07:34 PM

Jonny - I think that was a live Black 47 album that Eilleen played on


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 06:49 PM

You would need to speak Scots pretty well to do the Dunbar/Kennedy piece. (I've just sent an email to somebody who shoudl knwo to find out of it's already been done). Here's a rather anaemic translation of part of it:

http://literaryconsiderations.blogspot.com/2009/10/flighting-of-dunbar-and-kennedy.html

The original (they had no distinction between upper and lower case back then) looked like this:

LOUN LYK MAHOUN BE BOUN ME TILL OBEY
THEIF OR IN GREIF MISCHEIF SALL THE BETYD
CRY GRACE TYKIS FACE OR I THE CHECE & FLEY
OULE RARE AND ZOWLE I SALL DEFOWLL THY PRYD
PEILIT GLED BAITH FED AND BRED OF BICHIS SYD
AND LYK ANE TYK PURSPYK QUHAT MAN SETTIS BY THE
FORFLITTIN COUNTBITTIN BESCHITTIN BARKIT HYD
CLYM LEDDER FYLE TEDDER FOULE EDDER I DEFY THE

MAUCH MUTTOUN BYLE BUTTOUN PEILIT GLUTTOUN AIR TO HILHOUS
RANK BEGGAR OSTIR DREGAR FOULE FLEGGARIS IN THE FLET
CHITTIR LILLING RUCH RILLING LIK SCHILLING IN THE MILHOUS
BAIRD REHATOR THEIF OF NATOR FALS TRATORQ FEYINDIS GETT
FILLING OF TAUCH RAK SAUCH CRY CRAUCH THOW ART OUR SETT
MUTTOUN DRYVER GIRNALL RYVER ZADSWYVAR FOWLL FELL THE
HERRETYK LUNATYK PURSPYK CARLINGIS PET
ROTTIN CROK DIRTIN DOK CRY COK OR I SALL QUELL THE


That blistering torrent of internal rhymes and assonances is just like what a clever present-day rapper does. ("Cuntbitten" presumably meant you'd got the pox - Scottish poets of the time wrote a *lot* about that).


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Subject: RE: Folk Rap?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 04:48 PM

Hadn't heard that Carolina Chocolate Drops track before- thanks Steve. Now I recall some years ago you playing me something that I think was Eileen Ivers jamming with a bunch of MCs, remember what it was?


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