Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Guest -Jon
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:16 AM

HORSE ALERT!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:16 PM

Defining what's "emo" music is as tricky as defining what "folk" is! And it's gone through several incarnations since the mid 80s. Weak breathy male vocals are no more a definition of emo music than playing an acoustic guitar is a definition of folk music :-)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 12:16 PM

The ladies are fine but what really makes my skin crawl are weak breathy male vocals. I am hearing way too much of that with the young ones these days. Someone told me it's called "emo" but since I didn't know what AFAIK meant either... (laughing)

David E.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 12:07 PM

"It's all music."
Wasn't the question Ralphie - there again, I expected an evasion.
Jim CVarroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:38 AM

It means "As Far As I Know". It's been in use on Bulletin Boards for at least 25 years to my knowledge, and before that as telex shorthand.

In fact, many youngsters these days think acronyms and text speak is quaint, since predictive texting, unrestricted message sizes and high bandwidth make it redundant. My own kids type everything in full.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: PHJim
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:33 AM

Matt Milton said,"The female singer I hear the most in today's singers, well todays 'alternative' acoustic singers anyway, is Karen Dalton. Whenever I hear Alela Diane or Joanna Newsom or Maree Sioux I hear a lot of Karen Dalton in there."

I don't know Alela Diane or Joanna Newsom or Maree Sioux, but if they sound like Karen Dalton, I'm sure I'd love them. I got my first record of Karen's thirty some odd years ago in a bargain bin in Zellers with a hole punched through the corner. I fell in love with her voice and my first wife hated it. My dad, a huge Billie Hoilday fan, also loved her voice. He said,"That girl sounds like the reincarnation of Billie Holiday, if Billie played the banjo."

By the way Richard Bridge, what does AFAIK mean. I assume it's part of the text message language which an old fart like me can't decifer.

lol (Lots Of Love)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: PHJim
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:15 AM

Richard Bridge wrote:"...but right through to the end of the folk-rock scene there were numbers of strong female singers, whereas now the nuber must be down to the Waterson-Carthies, Maddy Prior and June Tabor: that's about it AFAIK."

Joan Baez is still around, Serena Ryder is hardy a weak singer, Linda Williams has a powerful voice and there are many more powerful female voices on the "Folk" scene today.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 10:13 AM

If you want to hear a real (non-weak, non-breathy, non-girly) woman singing see http://www.myspace.com/kathreade

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 09:03 AM

Jim.
Define Folk Music Ha Ha!
Butterworth is fine, as are a lot of classical composers who utilised tunes from various traditions.
Bela Bartok for one.
Just drop the "Folk" tag.
It's all music.
If you like some things...Great
If you don't.....Great.
I don't actually care what you like or don't like.
You'd probably say the same to me. Fine. No problem.
Got to go now, and revisit a recording I made of Peta Webb at the old Topic studios nearly 20 years ago.
(bet you wouldn't call her a Weak Breathy Girl would you?)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Brian May
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:09 AM

Wow, finally read it.

WEeeelll . . . if she's singing in my ear, then I'd say 'GO FOR IT GIRL' and be Well satisfied ;o)

Failing that, Maddy Prior is still my yardstick.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:41 AM

So you're saying Butterworth's 'Banks of Green Willowe' is still folk music?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:04 AM

To expand on the House/Song analogy.
If you buy a house in a state of disrepair and renovate/rebuild/adapt it in a style of your choosing, then the original has in essence been destroyed.
But if you treat a song/tune/dance whatever to the same treatment, no damage is done.
Other people can always return to the original manuscript/recording and make up their own minds.
So, there is no connection between the two.
Some people like to stick with past versions, others whilst appreciating original versions (me included) like to tinker with them too.
Both ways are correct, neither is wrong.
It just seems obvious to me.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:31 AM

Richard
There is nothing whatever wrong with putting a house/song back into shape by repairing and replacing its original features - we lived in two Mid-Victorian dwellings in London and did exactly that (lovingly restored was what the estate agent put in the blurb when he sold the last one for us).
Nor is there anything 'wrong' with ripping out all the orginal features and replacing them with your own tastes, as long as you recognise that what you are doing is creating something else.
I have no objection to people doing whatever they wish with folk-songs; among my favorite pieces of orchestral music is Butterworth's 'Banks of Green Willow' but I would describe it as having become something else be cause it has shed all the features that made it folk.
I hope that what is happening to folk song in some hands is not its future and that those of us who prefer the older forms have to 'move over and let it happen' (as some have suggested) otherwise our songs have no future as folk.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 04:59 PM

Seeing as this thread has drifted (as so many do), I'd like to come in on the Barry Bucknell business.

theleveller introduced the "restoration" analogy. Jim then referred to Barry Bucknell as an illustration of "demolition, not restoration". "Pretty much the philosophy of those who tell us that the old songs and styles of singing have had their day and we have to make way for the new crowd."

If a house is in a good state, it doesn't need restoration. If it has been neglected, or modified in inappropriate ways, sensitive refurbishment, restoring as much as possible of the original while satisfying modern requirements, seems entirely appropriate.

So, how does that apply to songs?

If a song has been collected in a dilapidated state, restoration with verses or lines from other versions or from print seems reasonable. If a song is in good shape, there is no need to do anything other than to sing it, but a new singer, like a new house owner, may wish to make some changes according to their personal tastes and requirements, e.g. modern plumbing in the house or using an instrument to support the voice.

Opinions are bound to differ as to how much should be changed and how much should be preserved, but there is a fundamental difference of philosophy between those who try to be faithful to the original character (however successful or unsuccessful they may be in that) and those who take the Barry Bucknell approach, seeing only the need for modernity and obliterating the original character. As far as I can see, Jim and theleveller are on the same side in that.

Richard

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 04:03 PM

I remember being totally knocked out by a Dolly Parton version of 'Barbara Allan' which opened with an Irish Gaelic verse and moved into Dolly (with accompaniment) singing a long, full version with complete commitment.
I really felt I was with her in the original family singing of the ballad.... and it was entirely unexpected!
There may have been some breathiness in the performance, but it was infused with a real emotional involvement, so thanks, Dolly!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,John
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:54 PM

Peoples tastes vary, I like a lot of wishy-washy types. Dolly Parton has a breathy style in her repertoire. She's a big favorite of mine.

If you are looking for a strong, traditional voice try Elizabeth LaPrelle.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:31 PM

Pete:

"For me, I've become less tolerant of the radio DJs - where do you guys listen to this music, where it's treated seriously and where I'm not expected to care about celeb "news" etc?"

I rarely listen to the (music) radio at all. I just go out to local (or not so local) venues and catch what looks interesting live. I use websites like "Drownedinsound" or "Artrocker" to see what's being said about new bands/ artistes (outside the "folk" genre mainly, of course), visit their websites and listen to some of their tracks to see whether I think it would be worth going along to see them or not. I'm also on the mailing lists of a few venues.

I do listen to Radio 6 Music now and then, but they don't play *that* much "under the commercial radar" stuff. Once I've "homed in" on a band or artiste I then download (paying!) the tracks of theirs that I like and make my own playlists. Or buy their "merch" at a gig.

This seems to be pretty much what youngsters do nowadays (those who are interested in music as more than background noise,anyway). The emphasis is firmly away from radio playlists and very much towards live sessions.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:23 PM

"Jim, of course, is deliberately misrepresenting my 'restoration' analogy,"
Sam Larner to Jim Moray restoration - really?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:12 PM

Jim, of course, is deliberately misrepresenting my 'restoration' analogy, as he well knows, but pedantry is always the enemy of reality. When I restore a house, I take something that has been rejected by previous owners who no longer see the charm in it and prefer to move on to something more modern. (Pretty much like the songs he collects.) I then make it habitable by bringing it up to modern standards (plumbing, sanitation, electricity, etc) whilst, at the same time, restoring the original fabric, putting back the original features that have been destroyed and, when I need to build an extension, I use reclaimed materials or have them made to exactly match the originals. At the same time I put my own personality into the building as previous generations have. The result? A building that has been saved from destruction, has a place in today and which is also uniquely mine. It takes knoweldge, research, time, money and a love of the original. But, then, few people want to live in a crumbling ruin that, left to its own devices, would simply fall down and disappear.

I think you (well, probably not you, Jim) can see how this analogy extends to folk songs.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:09 PM

Contributing further to thread drift in another direction I'm afraid...

"I know one doesn't *have* to be ignorant of new music just because one gets older, but many of us go that way"

For me, I've become less tolerant of the radio DJs - where do you guys listen to this music, where it's treated seriously and where I'm not expected to care about celeb "news" etc?

Pete.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 11:11 AM

"Barry Bucknelled"
Thanks for the reminder Jim.
Barry Bucknell was indeed a pioneer of D.I.Y. - his philosophy being tear down the old and put in the new. He demonstrated at great length how to get rid of those unsightly Victorian and Georgian panelled doors and turned bannister rails by nailing sheets of plywood over them. Or those ugly 'egg-and-dart cornices and cast ceiling roses - And those hideous stained glass door panels - "where's me hammer"?
Pretty much the philosophy of those who tell us that the old songs and styles of singing have had their day and we have to make way for the new crowd.
No objection whatever to experimentation with song (no, I don't 'whinge' about them; they don't interest me particularly - I've seen too many of them come and go).
My objection is when it is described as 'the future' - if it is, then folk song has no future; such past 'experiments' have proved this.
The strength of folk song lies in its ability to travel in space and time without losing its function - to record and communicate our lives and experiences in an entertaining and moving fashion. Destroy that and you've destroyed folk song.
By the way - yes, this is a thread-drift though I believe an inevitable one as it is so much a part of what many of us are about.
It's interesting to see how some people participate in such drifts willingly then cry 'foul' when they find they've painted themselves into a corner.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Crowsister
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 03:35 AM

And here she is on stage, in her mid fifties now: Kim Gordon
Respect!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Crowsister
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 02:53 AM

Rob, no I know one doesn't *have* to be ignorant of new music just because one gets older, but many of us go that way. I have anyway. With that caveat in mind, I still tend to think it's always been difficult for independent non-packaged female artists to get support from the music industry. And one of the reasons I find the current trend for girlier vocalists in traditional folk disappointing, is that previously strong female artists were the norm. For me, I see this as a decidedly backwards step. Though I respect the views of others here who support their work.

Otherwise, here's some words from Kim Gordon (Sonic Youth): Kool Thing

"Kool Thing let me play it with your radio
Move me, turn me on, baby-o
I'll be your slave
Give you a shave
I don't wanna, I don't think so
I don't wanna, I don't think so

Yeah, tell'em about it,
hit'em where it hurts
Hey, Kool Thing, come here, sit down
There's something I gotta ask you.
I just wanna know, what are you gonna do for me?
I mean, are you gonna liberate us girls
From male white corporate oppression?
Tell it like it is!
Huh?
Yeah!"

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:27 AM

yes i do,wasnt he a d.i.y. man

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:42 PM

"Barry Bucknelled" - it would be very interesting to know how many people know what this means (I do) - it's an age thing!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:28 PM

Crow Sister, You asked Sinead:

Quote:"Though I'm not going to be as up to date as you by a very long straw, if I think of 'modernish' female artists I like, they would include singers like Bjork, Alison Goldfrapp, Polly Harvey, Katie White (from the Ting Tings above), Shirley Manson, Roisin Murphy etc. ......

So, by way of comparison, maybe you could indulge me and throw us some names of current non-folk female singers (whether solo or fronting bands) that I won't know, so I can look them up. " Unquote.

I'm a bit older than you (mid 50s!) but I go to a lot of non-folk gigs, usually to see new/ emerging bands and artistes who are a bit "off" mainstream. I'd agree with most of your list above, except Katie White...I consider the "Ting Tings" to be a "manufactured" band. At the time that iconic photo of Katie with the guitar slung on her back was being "pushed" and they were being "bigged up" in NME, she couldn't play a note on it!

I'd rather see newer artistes in small venues than go to stadiums to see re-treads of Cream, Pink floyd or The Who 40 years on....I have my memories of them from that period and prefer to keep them "young and shiny"....as well as being interested in what's going on today.

There are loads of good female vocalists out there, and a lot of bands that have all, or predominantly, female members. I think it's even harder for females who play (as well as sing) in bands to make it into the mainstream. Probably 30-40% of the unsigned bands I see live contain a significant female instrumental presence, but very few make it onto radio.

A powerful female vocalist I like is Tarja Turunen...not new on the scene, as she was fronting the metal band "Nightwish" in the early to mid 2000s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=yEupDujaoBY

From the mid 2000s I also like to hear Helen Marnie of Ladytron:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-w0nweTB1E&feature=related

Kate Jackson of The Long Blondes (who broke up a year or so ago when their lead guitarist had a stroke aged about 30) also has a good voice, IMO, but the YouTube clips I've seen are all pretty crappy, and the release of "Giddy Stratospheres" (about the 4th remix) which eventually had some chart success is by far the worst. The original "rough" unsigned demo version sounds much fresher, and is probably still lurking somewhere on the "Filthy Little Angels" website (it's a music label, not kiddie porn!!!!)

I love Regine Chassagne's voice (Arcade Fire) but Win Butler gets most of the vocals....so she's really under-utilised vocally in the band.


"Quirky" female bands I enjoy seeing live include:

Ipso Facto (Rosie Cunningham on vocals and lead guitar):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=ygtkrkyHcrI&feature=related

Smoke Fairies (Jessica Davies & Katherine Blamire)

Leila & I (Connie Chamberlayne and Leila Macfie)

Not great vocalists, but young women musicians out there doing their own thing in the pubs and clubs and not giving a damn about being pre-packaged or fitting into mainstream expectations, and actually entertaining people with their own material.

I've stayed away from the "folkie" ones in this post, but I do like Beth Gibbins' voice when she (all too infrequently) lets it rip, and TTL is moving firmly away from folk now.

BTW: just because you're in your 30s doesn't mean you can't be "up to date". I often tell my kids that I've seen such-and-such a band, for them later to either get a "cult" following or to break into the mainstream. OK, I'm often one of the oldest people at a gig, but it doesn't bother me, and I've often had very positive comments from youngsters. Not only that, but so many of the newer bands release at least *some* of their stuff on vinyl that it's given my turntable a new lease of life :-)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 05:38 PM

No offense taken, Crowsister.

I was certainly not suggesting that the topic of this thread was inappropriate for this forum, but simply that this was not a place to get into another discussion on the definition of folk music but rather that this thread was essentially about performance styles, which I still maintain it is. While I did want to respond to the comment about offering a (or otherwise) an alternative definition, I did not really want to contribute more than minimally to thread drift.

My main point, however badly put, that despite suggestions to the contrary folk music in England is actually in a fairly healthy state. Alright there is nothing to be complacent about but there is a new generation coming through who are singing and playing Traditional music and are doing an excellent job. I have also noticed that recently the numbers at singaround nights in one local folk club I go to have been going up recently and while they may not always be youngsters, they are new to folk music and I see that as a healthy thing.

Back to the topic of the thread, I admit that I am not particularly keen on the type of girly voice that seems to be popular in some quarters at the moment but others seem to like it, judging by the positive comments being made on some U-Tube videos I have been looking at recently. I much prefer Eliza Carthy to Kate Rusby, for example, but that is a matter of personal taste. This particular style of singing is, IMO, simply current fashion and will likely change in time.

BTW, if you want to see breathy vocals in spades, watch Songs of Praise on BBC TV on a Sunday evening. They often have young women singers singing in that style, usually on soft focus, floaty videos. My wife likes the programme, but it grates with me at one level, but I also find it interesting in a "stop it I like it" kind of way.

At the end of the day, I subscribe to Martin Carthy's view that the worst thing you can do to traditional songs is not to sing them.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Crowsister
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 04:30 PM

"but do we congratulate them. No, it seems there is nothing but wingeing about them."

No offense Tootler, but as this is an internet forum for the discussion of folk music, this thread represents a perfectly valid topic for discussion. And different people have expressed different opinions, as is hopefully to be desired in any such discussion. There are contributions from those have made exactly the same points that you made in your last post, and they have argued them well and in detail. Lots of well reasoned posts here, offering a variety of opinions on the subject. Take another look.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 04:16 PM

"People have suggested alternative definitions elsewhere, "
Where as there been a working alternative definition offered - you have been noticably shy in offering one?
As far as I'm concerned it is the de-defining of folk music that poses the greatest threat to its future.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 04:03 PM

Jim Carroll wrote

Replacing folk music with something that bears no resemblence to the original either in form or function and apparently is indefinable, if the silences following requests for an alternative definition is anything to go by, is demolition, not restoration - as I said 'Barry Bucknelled'.

People have suggested alternative definitions elsewhere, but you have always pooh-pooed them.

Anyway this thread is not about definition but about performance.

The likes of Kate Rusby, The Unthanks and others have been bringing folk music to a wider audience, but do we congratulate them. No, it seems there is nothing but wingeing about them.

Whatever you may think of their voices, and that is a matter of personal taste, and in case you hadn't noticed they are singing Traditional songs for the most part so what's wrong with that?

What's with the "demolition, not restoration" and "Barry Bucknelled". You seem to be endlessly negative about folk music at the current time when there is a lot to be positive about.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: JHW
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:46 AM

In the old days folk apprentices, if they were to survive, had to make it on the club circuit where a clear and projected voice was essential for the face to face audience. Now I fear there is too much reliance, straight out of college, on staging and PA and studio skills.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 11:55 AM

Replacing folk music with something that bears no resemblence to the original either in form or function and apparently is indefinable, if the silences following requests for an alternative definition is anything to go by, is demolition, not restoration - as I said 'Barry Bucknelled'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:15 AM

"Your 'house' analogy is a little reminiscent of knocking down the Georgian and Victorian houses and putting up multi-story and office blocks, which some prefer"

Blimey, if that's what you think I'm glad I've never used you to install electrical wiring in any of the houses I've restored:-)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 07:53 AM

"if someone starts doing a "girly" thing to me, I feel I'm being manipulated. "

Manipulate me! Please!   :-)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 07:47 AM

It's not just confined to UK singers - it seems to be quite prevalant in the States too, not just in "folk" but also in country. I was quite disappointed a couple of years ago when Rennie Sparks (Handsome Family) used the voice for a song when she normally sings in a much fuller fashion.

My main objections are that I think we should be preserving the musical techniques of the various traditions, not just the basic songs and tunes, and also, if someone starts doing a "girly" thing to me, I feel I'm being manipulated.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 04:45 AM

"I suspect, exactly where everyone else fits in. Some would love him, others wouldn't."
Not a question of taste - just one of one music being asked to'roll over' (which would include Bob and his contemporariies) to clear the stage for another. Patronising attitudes towards those some would replace doesn't make up for the chaos that now exists.
Your 'house' analogy is a little reminiscent of knocking down the Georgian and Victorian houses and putting up multi-story and office blocks, which some prefer, (while having respect for the previous ones they replaced, of course!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: mattkeen
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 04:04 AM

Not really

There was money in punk

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 03:54 AM

"Folk" has undergone the same sort of nonsense 'industry' processing that "Punk" underwent...

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 03:53 AM

I don't have a problem with singers in a high register. The problem for me is that some of these singers, particularly the breathier ones, lack an "edge" to their voice. Without that edge, the words can be harder to make out - I don't think it's a matter of poor diction. The result is a beautiful sound which fails to get the song across. For folk music, the song is more important than the voice.

The other difficulty I have is that these voices often lack a range of vocal colour. I may be able to listen to one or two songs, but after a while it palls, no matter how beautiful the tonal quality of the voice.

There are plenty of female singers in a high register who do have that edge and can add colour to their voice. However their currently seems to be a fashion amongst the younger generation of female singers in the UK for the other kind of voice - a beautiful tone, in most cases, but all too often lacking in character and most importantly obscuring the song.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Crowsister
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 03:45 AM

Oops, forgot that I had intended not to refresh this thread (sorry Tam!) as there are other threads nudging to come in on associated topics - and this one has run it's course for me. Been a jolly interesting discussion though, thanks to some well reasoned postings. I'm glad it didn't turn into a pie throwing contest ;-)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 03:43 AM

"wonder where Bob Copper would have fitted into all that."

I suspect, exactly where everyone else fits in. Some would love him, others wouldn't. Respect and personal taste don't always go hand in hand.

To extend the 'house' analogy (from someone who has spent a large part of his life restoring and renovating houses), yes, respect and understand what you're working with but, in order to live there you have to bring it up to modern standards and that means installing electricity, plumbing and sanitation, heating, maybe building an extension - and somewhere along the way compromises will always have to be made and personal taste taken into consideration.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Crowsister
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 03:41 AM

"It's not something I've noticed."

Snail, I'm not referring to the club circuit which arguably exists independently, but to the popular music scene - the stuff that's successful and that sells. If anyone doubts that "folk" hasn't morphed into a word basically meaning introspective acoustic singer/songwriter music by a sensitive youth, I'm not going to try to convince them (however before I discovered traditional song/music, that's more or less what it meant to me).

Arguably however modern popular trad. folk artists such as the women that have been discussed here, could be altering that and restoring the original meaning of the term to the public understanding, right now. Albeit piggy backing so to speak, on certain conventions of styling and presentation to be found in popular acoustic singer/songwriter musics. Sinead and others have argued that, that can only be a good thing for traditional music. And perhaps they are correct at that.

As to our US cousins posting, yes perhaps it is a phenomenon more specific to the UK trad. folk scene - the successful and more visible side of it at least.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Genie
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 08:45 PM

Poppagator, I too was surprised to see Judy Collins mentioned in the same breath as "weak breathy girly vocals." Judy, I believe, is classically trained and does not always, or even usually, sing in "head voice," plus she has pretty powerful vocals when called for. Listen to her rendition of "Pirate Jenny," for just one example.

Loreena McKinnit (sp?) does have a rather ethereal vocal style, but I think it fits the songs she sings.   I don't really mind that style any more than I mind the gritty, gravelly voice of Steve Earle or Greg Brown or any blues singer. I certainly don't think powerhouse vocals and a bellowing style are either necessary or even ideal for all types of songs. (I love Eartha Kitt's voice, for example!)

I also love the kind of thing Sarah McLachlan (sp?) does so superbly with her voice. Again, it's neither necessary nor even desirable for everything (sea chanteys, e.g.), but it's very appropriate and effective for many songs.

Oh, and I don't equate "breathy" with "weak" necessarily.

I have to admit I'm not very familiar with Shirley Collins and some others mentioned here, but I do wonder why the big to-do about breathy singers.   JMO

Genie

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Janie
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 08:06 PM

If this thread is intended only for the UK, I haven't a clue, and ignore my following comment.

I can not think of any well known and currently performing female USA folk singer with a "breathy, girly voice." Among regionally (East Coast) or locally (Piedmont area of North Carolina) female folk singers, and those that I know who sing "just for fun", I can't think of any who would match that description. I also don't think any one type, style, etc. has come to dominate what we in the USA would consider to be "the folk genre" - as broad and eclectic as that "genre" is.

Witness the nomination of the Utah Phillips tribute album, "Singing Through the Hardtimes", for a Grammy as best traditional folk album of the year.    That was certainly the closest category in which to consider it, but while many of us on Mudcat would call it folk, most of us would not call it "traditional." But Charlie Poole (The Charlie Poole Project won the nomination) would also not meet most of our definitions of traditional, since we tend to think of trad. as being ballads whose roots can be traced to ballads in the UK.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 07:24 PM

GUEST,Crowsister

introspective singer/songwriters who have come to dominate the folk genre

I think this may be a local phenomonen. It's not something I've noticed.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Crowsister
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 05:37 PM

Cheers Sinead, your list reads as quite an enigma. On the one hand you have some really strong older singers from other genres there, and on the other some more arguably tender/fey young singer/songwriters working in a folkish style. It seems to describe a similar disconnect as I see between modern popular female folk artists and earlier revival singers. From your list, I note you don't really cite anyone really young who is cutting edge or dynamic. So the "bridge" you are describing between "contemporary and traditional" is essentially the same as other posters have suggested, ie: one between introspective singer/songwriters who have come to dominate the folk genre, and traditional material itself. In a sense what we could say is this describes an ouroborus like snake circling around and finding its own tail. You, and others too, argue that this is a worthy thing. And maybe it is.. Who am I to disagree? But as a token feminist, believer in strong female role models, and not to mention a new-born traddy, it leaves me decidedly confuddled and uncertain as to what I feel about it all..

My thanks for your input however. Hope to see more of your posts around here in future :)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:27 PM

Shirley Collins and Davie Graham were on Mike Harding tonight doing "Nottamun Town". While her voice may be an acquired taste, I would never describe it as weak and breathy - for a start, I can bear listening to her, and as I said above, if a "girly" voice starts singing I switch off (in both senses) immediately.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:20 PM

Good Soldier Schweik - Yeay The Wilsons love 'em, singalongathem every year at Shrewsbury Folk Festival (my local) they are ever returning stalwarts, but 1st heard them back in their own patch many more years ago when I lived there for a few years. Now they have young Lasses with good voices, daughters, whom I hope will be less bashful this year & join in too.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Sinéad
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:18 PM

CS, with regards to your earlier question, I have to say I don't listen to a lot of other music genres that have female singers, although here are some:

Gwen Stefani of No Doubt.
Bjork, also.
I think Shania Twain has a good voice, but cheesy music.
Mindy Smith.
Joni Mitchell.
Billie Holiday.
I really like Shakira's voice, but not her music.
Julie London.
Aretha Franklin.
Amy Lee of Evanscence.
Eva Cassidy.
Alela Diane.
Adele.
Laura Marling (a really amazing songwriter).
Sinéad O'Connor (no, that's not me!)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:00 PM

"Habits like that are hard to break"
Tell me about it - I have more or less abandoned my favourite song 'Go To Sea Once More' because of the four-square way I learned it in the sixties.
I had some little success with speaking the lines but have never got round to doing enough work on it to solve it completely.
Will put it on my 'One Hundred Songs To Sing Before You Die' list.
Jim Carroll