BS: what about Glen Beck?

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

>>This is true whether it is Wikipedia, the Oxford History, or The Protocols or... Granted all sources are not equal, but none can be dismissed because you may not like them; <<

John, I find it very amusing that you say this on a thread where the words "Glen Beck" is in the title. While he was on HLN I dismissed Beck as a BullShitter or a looney, because even then he was saying outrageous things I knew not to be true.

I guess what I am talking about is credibility. Beck has no credibility with me. No matter what he says, I question it.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:25 PM

"I would not waste my time debating a Holocaust denier & Beck's idiocies place him in the same category" However you did debate re Beck by entering this thread the first time. You just didn't do it well.

I need no lecture on what is History...I have a degree in History...but there there are shades and nuances, and history changes as more is learned. I acknowledged that the statement was not accurate as to the use of the term "American", and that WAS the part of the point of the example. As to "feelings" I used the word "feeling" (singular) not as a wishful, touchy-feely, kumbaya moment--an emotional feeling as it were, but as a conveying sense of time and place. But all of that seems to have fluttered over your head.

You do not need to refute other arguments, your choice, but you do not win arguments by not participating. 'Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:26 PM

You amuse easily, Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:31 PM

I won't deny that John. But that does not make Beck any more credible. As a student of history, would you not question a source that has been proved unreliable even once?

The Daily Show alone has dozens of examples of Beck spewing nonsense. Why should we take his words about Israel seriously?

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:45 PM

Greg F.,

With your references to "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and to holocaust-denial, what are you insinuating? Glenn Beck is neither a holocaust-denier nor one who believes that "The Protocols" are genuine, and he is a vocal supporter of Israel, so why are you using those references?

As for the age of the term "Italian", consider Acts 10:1 *Aner de tis en kaisaria onomati koranlios ekatontarkas ek sneiras tas kaloumenas italikas (At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort). Notice that last word italikas.

Your "Sunshine",

Kent

*I can't get the Greek letters to show up properly. Here is the link http://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010:1&version=TR1550

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:49 PM

I'm no expert on Beck, but as with the Bible, I am pretty sure that you can find a quote of his to support any position. Ravings are like that.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:52 PM

This is directly from Beck's website.

"I'm sorry. Yes, it's me, the Holocaust denier. Holocaust, what Holocaust? Holocaust schmolocaust. Yes. We know that it's a bunch of bullcrap. How do we know it? Because we've engaged in something I like to call common sense. "

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:02 PM

Jack, I would question Beck (or anybody else on any subject--and I do often) the operative phrase being "would question". You and Greg F. and some others dismiss out of hand seemingly without questioning. That's my objection and complaint. I don't give a rat's tail that you disagree with Beck or me (which does not mean I agree with Beck, as I hear so little of him) or with any one else. My beef is that you don't seem to actually listen to those you disagree with, but that you listen to what a John Stewart or a Stephen Colbert, or a Rachel Maddow wants you to hear of Beck...or for that matter anyone they (and probably you) disagree with.

My MO to try to get to the original source of a quotation or a sound bite in context. Then I form my opinion as to the credibility of the quotation. I do this even for headlines, statements and bites from sources I mostly agree with. No person or statement is sacrosanct.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:22 PM

Jack--can you narrow down where on Beck's website I might find that quote in context? I have no way of knowing, but it seems from the wording that he is being a bit ironic. But maybe he is being anti-Semitic. I did try Snopes, "Glenn Beck Holocaust Denial", but nothing comes up.

I promise to read, in full, and in context whatever you point me to. No snippets, no Glenn Beck 'says'...only full articles, speeches or commentaries of Mr. Beck, either from his website or other media.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:31 PM

John, did you know that google is fully indexed, that is you can search on any phrase on the Internet that the google search engine can see.

try googling "Yes, it's me, the Holocaust denier" but before you jump all over me, keep in mind that I said this in my previous post. "I'm no expert on Beck, but as with the Bible, I am pretty sure that you can find a quote of his to support any position. Ravings are like that. "

As for what Colbert, or Stewart say, no I don't give what they say all that much credibility at all. But if they show video of a person contradicting themselves, I give that some credence. Beck is a spewer, he talks so much there is tape of him saying just about anything.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:38 PM

Jack the Sailor,

I hope you were joking. Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7baI4t9_Qs

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM

Kent,

I am not going to watch 13 minutes of Glen Beck. I hope for your sake you wouldn't either.

Here is something more to the point.

To call Beck a defender of Israel is a mockery of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:50 PM

Why don't you just watch five minutes and learn, not what other people say about Beck, but what he actually says and does, how he is using his influence to defend Israel and to discredit Holocaust-deniers.

Kent

P.S.

I couldn't watch the thing all the way through. I don't like to cry.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:38 PM

I have a degree in History...

Apparently not in U.S Colonial History, however, eh John?

...what are you insinuating?

Only what your febrile mind can conjure up, Kent. I merely made a comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:51 PM

Forgive me, Jack, the ADL notwithstanding, I find nothing offensive to Jews in that four year old story...and I'm pretty well attuned to what constitutes Anti-Semitism.

It's a shame you're so hate filled towards Mr. Beck, that you won't spend a couple of your precious minutes to hear his words in context. I just watched what Kent linked to, and also to the first part (address below) of that show. Unfortunately, I could not find the final part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HNjWgSBd-w&feature=related

I agree with most of what Beck says in those segments (sans any Christian messages) more, even, than several Rabbis I've heard or known.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:56 PM

As for the age of the term "Italian"... Notice that last word Italikas.

Unless the term refers to the ancient city of that name in SPAIN....

P.S. - the New testament is hardly a credible source. And what word is used in the Aramaic?

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:59 PM

It's a shame you're so hate filled towards Mr. Beck...

Now who's "dismissing out of hand"?

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 07:05 PM

I tried your suggestion Jack, and found it. I've taken the liberty of posting the entire paragraph which contains what you consider to be a 'damning' statement. Well, not so much! Beck is guilty of rambling almost to incoherence, but when you get through it you will find that he is saying that Global Warming (the subject of the piece) activists consider Warming denial the equivalent of Holocaust denial. Beck is being ironic in copping to denying Global Warming. I must say I thought better of you, Jack, but if this is the best you can do, Sayonara.

"Where were all the global warming advertisements, where was all of the global warming stuff during the campaign? Did you notice it just mysteriously disappeared during the campaign? Why is that, do you suppose? Maybe, oh, I don't know, because they know people don't buy into it? That they know it is – I'm sorry. Yes, it's me, the Holocaust denier. Holocaust, what Holocaust? Holocaust schmolocaust. Yes. We know that it's a bunch of bullcrap. How do we know it? Because we've engaged in something I like to call common sense. Just when you get really down and you say, "There's not a single person on Earth that gets it anymore," know that, yes, Americans know the global warming thing is a scam. "When we stop the assault on our Earth, when will we – "gosh darn it, I've been holding the temperature gauge upside – the paper, I had it upside down. I'm sorry. Oh, jeez. Wow, it's actually the coldest year of the decade. I thought it was the warmest there. It's weird how all of Al Gore's spending of several hundred million dollars on a mass campaign of convincing you that global warming is real has resulted in less than 20% of the American people who actually agree with him. Think of this. Think of the propaganda: Less than 20%."

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/18996/

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 07:19 PM

Greg F. Learn to frickin' read. For the third time, I know what I wrote was not accurate...it was meant as an example of how words can be anacronistically conflated for effect. So bother me no more on this!

I did not dismiss out of hand anything Jack said, nor did I dismiss him, at least, perhaps, in my last post. In fact, I followed-up on his suggestions and actually read and posted what Beck said. Which, I might add, neither you nor he seem willing to do.

Ironically, I probably ave spent more time listening to Glenn Beck today than the rest of 2011 'til now. I may listen to him more frequently in the future.

Sayonara

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 08:15 PM

...how words can be anacronistically conflated for effect...

I assume you use 'conflate' in its secondary meaning of 'confuse'?

That's theater, John. Or posibly demagoguery. Not history.

Hasta la vista, baby.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 09:02 PM

I'm sorry, John but the rhetorical device of trivializing the Holocaust to make a relatively minor point about Global Warming strike me as not useful to Israel or to any neutral observer. To me it is proof enough, piled upon many other examples that the man is so full of shit that it is a pure waste of time to listen to him.

Which brings me to Kents statement. No, I don't hate Beck. I don't hate people because they are mentally ill. But that doesn't mean I have to watch their rants.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 09:10 PM

Yeah,

John you dismissed what I said as "hate" for Beck. but I do not hate him. I don't find him credible, I don't hate people for being mentally ill John. But that does not mean I have to listen to their ravings.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 09:24 PM

Cher Jack, your last post does not wash. Earlier today you posted, out of context, a statement designed to make us believe that Glenn Beck is a Holocaust Denier. Having been caught with your knickers down, you now switch to he's trivializing the Holocaust vis a vis (so-called man-made) Global Warming. That is a different argument for a different time. Meanwhile, you've lost all credibility with me in your condemnation of Mr. Beck in your posts.

BTW, I believe I'm the one who called you out on your hate of Beck. I'll own it and stand by it.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 11:07 PM

I really don't hate him. But I worry about people naive enough to defend him.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 11:36 PM

Greg F.,

You said, yesterday at 8:37 a.m., "In Jesus' time, there WERE no 'Italians'." You said, at 10:20 this morning, "the OED cites the first use of the word "Italian" in the 16th Century - just a bit later than the crucifixion".

I quoted a document that is unquestionably many centuries older than the 16th century, a document that uses the Greek equivalent of the the word "Italian" to describe a cohort in Caesarea.

Instead of saying "oops", you ask me what word is used in the Aramaic. Why? Acts was originally written in Greek, not Aramaic.

Nevertheless, if you prefer the term "Roman", you may substitute it. I only used the term in making the point that, contrary to the implication of DrugCrazed on July 2, Glenn Beck does not blame the Jews exclusively for the crucifixion of Jesus but rather believes that EVERYONE had a hand in it, Jew and Gentile, priest and soldier, street mob and aristocrat, king and even disciple.      

As the links in my previous posts show, Glenn Beck is a friend of Israel and a foe of those who deny the Holocaust and of those who deny Israel's right to exist. If you can't spare the minutes to look at the previous links, you might wish to spend a few seconds reading this http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/06/28/3088339/beck-to-address-knesset-committee

   
Kent

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 11:44 PM

I have, on occasion, watched Glenn Beck. The man is a loon. He has his own version of the truth, that has precious little in common with the original. I suspect he's a racist. (You almost never see anyone who isn't white on his show.) But he doesn't sound like an anti Semite. In fact he spent his last weeks on Faux News fearmongering to the Jewish community, and he's doing something I probably don't want to know about in Jerusalem this summer.
With luck the Israelis will be out after him with the nets, and a nice, comfy straight jacket. Because that man is crazier than a bedbug!

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 12:04 AM

LadyJean,

Here's a clip of Glenn Beck and Herman Cain http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/05/24/glenn-interviews-herman-cain/

Here's one of Alveda King at the rally Glenn Beck organized http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKoIXeBo4DY

Here's an interview with Allen West http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4if7dfE78pU

Kent

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:31 AM

Ah, Kent-
a document that uses the Greek equivalent of the the word "Italian" to describe a cohort in Caesarea.

Uh, no, it uses the word to describe an INDIVIDUAL. And you know that this individual (and the Cohort) was not from or related to the Roman city of Italika in Spain founded two centuries before Christ HOW, exactly?

And let me repeat: The New Testament is hardly a reputable source (ACTS in particular has some serious problems) and was written a century AFTER Jesus, was it not?

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:42 AM

Because [Glenn Beck] is crazier than a bedbug!

He's also more ignorant than he is crazy, Jean. The extent of his education is a High School diploma, and he was an indifferent student, at best.

Real pundit material.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:48 AM

But back to Beck...we have to remember that he was (and actually still is on radio and other places) an ENTERTAINER and not a legitimate disseminater of anything we would call "news." Unfortunately, too many people who pay attention to him do not recognize this distinction.

And from what I have seen of some of his rants, he is either approaching the bend or already well-around it. I think he needs serious pshycho-treatment. I actually find him a truly sad and pathetic figure.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:55 AM

ENTERTAINER? The man is not in the least entertaining .

Pathetic? yes. Ignorant? yes. Psychotic? yes. Mendacious? yes. Dangerous? yes.

But not by any means entertaining.

And those who actually BELIEVE his spew are even more pathetic, ignorant and dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:43 AM

I think it must have been cool being a Roman soldier....building straight roads, wearing a mini skirt, interesting sandals, a cool lookin helmet, a metal eagle with SQRS (Sample Queer roman Sex....?), bathtime with Laurence Olivier and Tony Curtis.....

So they crucified a few wrong people. No ones perfect.

what about Glen Morangie, Glen Miller, Glen Campbell and Jeff Beck. take a more balanced view.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 01:09 PM

Glen Morangie! NOW you're talkin' !

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:32 PM

Mr. F., Sir,

I just checked twenty-five different translation of Acts 10:1. Each translation disagrees with your assertion that the passage "uses the word to describe an INDIVIDUAL". All twenty-five indicate that it describes the cohort. All twenty-five translate the word as "Italian" or a variant such as "of Italy".

If indeed your translation corrects the errors of four centuries of Koine Greek scholarship, it seems surprising that you thought the passage was originally written in Aramaic.

Kent

P.S. Isn't it odd how people will state or imply that a man hates Jews, or that he is a racist, and then, when it becomes apparent that the charges are slanderous, don't even acknowledge their error?

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:03 PM

It hardly matters if he is racist. The lunacy overshadows that.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:11 PM

I just checked twenty-five different translation of Acts 10:1.

Twenty-five, huh? Good Job, Sunshine.

Now, please tell me the date of the oldest extant manuscript in Greek of Acts:10 that exists, so we can see at what date errors of translation may have originated & simply been perpetuated.


people will state or imply that a man hates Jews, or that he is a racist, and then, when it becomes apparent that the charges are slanderous, don't even acknowledge their error?

If you are asserting that I said either of those things your either an idiot or a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 11:12 PM

Greg, you just don't get it. "Now, please tell me the date of the oldest extant manuscript in Greek of Acts:10 that exists, so we can see at what date errors of translation may have originated & simply been perpetuated."

That's your job if you want to refute Kent. He has provided current instances of generally accepted wording. Altho' he did not name any specifically, I found the term in the KJV, Douay (Catholic), NIV, and NAB, so I know you can do even better. If you want epigraphic, or historical research, that's on you.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 03:43 AM

"Obama, has a deep seated hatred of white people"

Kent, John, is that racist or not?

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:56 AM

Is Kent the one who used to advertise Kent cigarettes in Readers Digest? The style is similar.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 09:26 AM

He has provided current instances of generally accepted wording.

No, John.

In the first place we're not talking about "current instances" but evidences of the use of the word "Italians" - as a descriptor for the inhabitants of the country of Italy- in use 2000 years ago.

He claims that there are such. He has provided no actual evidence, other than a book of the the New Testament, written a century after Jesus' time, and copied/translates/edited/revised & etc some hundreds-if not thousands- of times since. I'm simply requesting the closest thing available to primary source material.

Its HIS claim that the term "Italian" is contemporary with the life of Jesus and so far he has provided nothing credible to substantiate the claim.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 09:44 AM

Keep dancing Gregg, you're doing fine.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 10:49 AM

That's one penultimate "G", John. Please pay attention.

But thanks for the compliment & your support of my efforts. Appreciated!

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:33 AM

You're right Greg, I misspelled your name, for which now everything I've written is invalidated. However, in both Greg and Gregg, there is one--and only one--penultimate G. Only the position is changed. G(penultimate)reG(ultimate)/G(antepenultimate)G(penultimate)reG(ultimate). Enough jocularity.

As I recall (without scrolling through all his or your posts), Kent offered Greek and English versions the word Italia/Italian in a context. The Greek may be correct...it may not be, but it seems to be the accepted word today. Was it written long after Christ...yes. Are there earlier versions? Perhaps. Are those versions which would prove that Italian is an incorrect usage/translation for that period extant? I don't know, but I'm guessing not. So if you deny the validity of the accepted sources, translations and usage, it is YOU who have to produce credible alternatives to refute Kent. That endeavor might merit a PhD. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:55 AM

without scrolling through all his or your posts

Perhaps you should, to refresh your memory.

but it seems to be the accepted word today

Yes, John, but we're not talking about today. We're talking about the word' existence, or non-existance AT THE TIME OF THE CRUCUFIXION. Kent has still not provided any credible evidence.

And thanks for the pedantry. I stand corrected in my mis-use of "penultimate", typed in haste. But you DID figure out what I meant, despite all that.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:57 AM

"Obama, has a deep seated hatred of white people"

Whom are you quoting, Jack? The guy who periodically passes out anti-Obama literature in front of my post office? Your next door neighbor? Did whomever say this alleged quote provide instances that would support that assertion? Did you just make it up?

Jack, you've already be caught quoting out of context at this thread. You've posted nothing (a@3:43A) that deserves an answer or rehabilitates your credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 12:00 PM

One good pedant deserves another Greg.

"AT THE TIME OF THE CRUCUFIXION" Your job. Earn your degree.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 12:14 PM

Can't have it both ways, John.

It was Kent who made the claim of use at the time of the Crucifixion in an attempt to refute a posting of mine.

According to your own "rules" (the same rules you keep beating me over the head with) its HIS job to substantiate his claim.

Which he, as yet, has not done.

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 01:27 PM

"Whom are you quoting, Jack?"

snip----

On Fox & Friends today (July 28, 2009), Glenn Beck called Obama "a racist" during a discussion of how the president handled the arrest of Henry Louis Gates.

"This president, I think, has exposed himself as a guy, over and over and over again, who has a deep-seated hatred for white people or the white culture," Beck said. "I don't know what it is."

Following up on Beck's ridiculous claim, Fox's Brian Kilmeade pointed out that Obama is surrounded by white advisers like David Axelrod, Robert Gibbs and Rahm Emanuel.

"I'm not saying he doesn't like white people," Beck said. "I'm saying he has a problem. He has a -- this guy is, I believe, a racist."

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 02:05 PM

"what about Glen Beck"

personally I don't give a rat's about him.

On saying that I wouldn't get my drawers in a knot about him or what his says .... anyway, his ratings are falling.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: what about Glen Beck?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 02:06 PM

correction ... a rat's ass about him

100 !

biLL