Why shout 'MacIntire'? - Old Dun Cow

Subject: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:25 AM

... or Mcintyre or however you want to spell it. I have a very vague recollection of asking this before, but nothing comes up on the mudcat search (or google), so ...
Most of us will recognise it from 'When the Old Dun Cow caught fire', and I guess it was a well-known catchphrase when the song was written. When I was a lad (50s, 60s) there was a string of adverts in the UK for Mackeson stout, where two bottles of stout (and I kid you not) would be boxing, running a race, or otherwise competing; one would drop behind/down/out until a bottle in the crowd yelled 'Mackeson!' and the loser would come back to life and win. It's tempting to think there's a connection here, that one came from the other.
Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: JHW
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:33 AM

Mackeson doesn't rhyme with fire

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:35 AM

Steve-

If you plow through all the old threads on this question, I believe you'll find the suggestion that the fire chief's name was "MacIntyre."

Works for me, and it does rhyme.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: s&r
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:38 AM

Read somewhere that shouting fire in a pub was illegal if there was no fire - hence MacIntyre from the audience

Stu

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: John J
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 08:33 AM

Or perhaps it was his round next?

JJ

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:44 AM

... or perhaps it means that it might have been MacIntyre who shouted, but the narrator isn't sure: so it would be punctuated, "Someone shouted ~~ MacIntyre?"

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Declan
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:01 AM

Because they are the words of the song. There doesn't have to be a reason for everything. Some things are just meant to be nonsensical.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:19 AM

"Why shout 'MacIntyre'?"

Why indeed?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Old Roger
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 11:20 AM

McIntire's was a brand of beer. The shout was one of excitement and exultation at the discovery of this treasure in the cellar. That's why folk shout it out now. It's in the spirit of the song.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 12:55 PM

well its better than shouting rhubarb

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:24 PM

The song was written by Harry Wincott.

You can read all about him here

I don't think there was a London Beer called McIntyre's. It was customary to put the word 'entire' after a brewer's name, however.

As in Nalder& Collyer's Entire....entire being a style of Porter or light stout (originally 6.6 abv!)

But it is doubtful whether this has anything to do with anything!

I guess Harry used the name because it fitted the song and rhymed with fire!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:31 PM

"Don't let them in till it's all mopped up, somebody." shouted McIntyre.

In other words McIntyre wanted the door barred until all the lads could finish guzzling the beer.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:39 PM

I think Seamus has nailed it. One of the other Mudcat threads about this song quotes the later verses, which show that McIntyre was one of the firemen. The "McIntyre!" call and response probably started as a deliberate misreading of an awkwardly-written line (the "somebody" comes after a definite pause, so it's easy to hear it as "somebody shouted 'McIntyre'", not "...somebody,' shouted McIntyre"). Ill-behaved audiences can be heard to interject irreverent comments to this day, as I discovered the first time I did Pleasant and Delightful.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 02:12 PM

maybe we should change the words to.
dont let em im in till its all mopped up,so..... shouted mcintyre

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 03:19 PM

Shouted TO McIntyre. McIntyre was nearest to the cellar door.
I almost wrote 'nearest the cellar door' which also lacks the TO.

I first heard the extra shout at a Liverpool Spinners concert.

Works for me.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 03:19 PM

...are you sure you are not using modern day vernacular to explain a problem that doesn't exist?

Harry was born and raised in Camberwell. One of the pubs on the Old Kent Road was the Dun Cow. I can remember it being there. It is now a doctor's surgery. He was noted as being inspired by the things around him to write his songs, so maybe the pub did actually have a fire and that gave him the idea!

Let Mcintyre be whoever you want him to be. Harry left no clue in the words he wrote. Like all songs that have become popular around the world, many extra verses, characters and tweaks have been added.

I bet Harry would chuckle at this thread!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: JeffB
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 03:37 PM

The words I've got are "somebody said to McIntyre." I got them off the Net so they must be right.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 04:53 PM

Ha Ha, Jeff.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 06:13 PM

There are at least two questions in here.

One is over the syntax of the original song words, for which several suggestions have been made, but none is altogether convincing. Does anyone have the words as originally printed?

The other question is why, after that line in the song has been sung, someone in the room will immediately shout "McIntyre". This has become a tradition in itself, but not one with any merit that I can see.

Richard

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 06:43 PM

yes, it has merit,it gets the audience participating,its even better,if several people shout it one after another[a sort of echo effect],even better if there is someone called mcintyre in the audience he/she can then get up and say,yes what do you want, the singer then says apint for everyone in the house,the whole song then goes off on a diversionary trail for a few minutes,and everyone has a good time,then everyones goes back to the old dun cow again.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 06:47 PM

"This has become a tradition in itself, but not one with any merit that I can see."

Well said Good Soldier Schweik :-)

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:31 PM

Pete - there isn't a problem, it's just an interesting topic for some of us. We may never work out what the lyrics mean, but I don't think we're doing any harm by discussing them. We're certainly not doing the song any harm - we're drawing attention to it.

Here's a couple of old threads which quote published lyrics, including another appearance by the elusive McIntyre.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:22 PM

I am surprised no one has mentioned the likelihood of 'MacIntire' being rhyming slang for 'fire' which to me makes the most sense. This also fits in with the music hall origins of the song as well as fitting the meter and the way the song is typically sung. I have not ever seen the original sheet music, though.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:43 PM

This rhyming slang interpretation is surely discounted by the facts that:

the potman has already given the alarm of fire;

Brown has already suggested the advantage to be taken of the situation;

and has forbidden the admittance of the firemen (whose object appears to be to share in the "Booze, booze" rather than to put out the fire) till it was "all mopped up":

and only then did somebody shout "MacIntyre" ~~ a bit late by that time to purport to raise the alarm, eh?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:22 AM

I go with rhyming slang.Why not SHOUT Mcintyre,its an interesting philosophical point,some dont like it because it means people might be attempting to be light hearted,and some people can only enjoy themselves if being serious and scholarly.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:45 AM

Becoz, Dick, there is no point shouting FIRE or its rhyming·slang equivalent when everybody knows there's a fire & the fire brigade is already there, is there? It would just conflict with the narrative momentum of the song. That's not being serious & scholarly, that's making sense of what's being sung. Take one of your songs that I often listen to: you wouldn't sing the first verse of The Month Of January in the middle of It Was On One April Morning, just for a giggle, would you?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Fran
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 02:24 AM

We always used to shout "DUNLOP" in South Tyne Folk and Blues Club - that's Geordie humour for you!

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 02:32 AM

What other songs require shouting? - Baltimore Fire is the one I think of right off the bat.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 05:02 AM

That's a very old joke, Fran!

Digression: There was a Dun Cow in Bloxwich where Arthur 'Not now, Arthur!' Tolcher came from. Remember the chap with the harmonica at the end of the Morecambe & Wise show?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 06:39 AM

good point m the g m.
however my point was not aimed at you,but more at shimrods,who i sense disapproves of the practice of singning it in clubs.
the old traditional singers at the blaxhall ship had no problem enjoying them selves,when cyril poacher sang the broomfield wager,they used to join in and sing hold the wheel [a visiting american tourist had misheard had her will for hold the wheel,and asked cyril why he sung hold the wheel in the song ,so the rest of the blaxhall singers used to think it a great joke,to join in with cyril singing the wrong words.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:34 AM

Ploughed all the way through this thread only to find that you had beaten me to it Fran :-(
I think that Pete "(C)Rapper" Brown was the instiator of that jape.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:50 AM

The rhyming slang for fire I learned was 'Jerimiah', not MacIntyre.

MacIntyre is a large firm of builders... there have been experiments in shouting 'Wimpey', 'Bovis' and other firms but they haven't caught on...

I get the feeling that the sour grapes is more at "ill-behaved audiences' who 'interject irreverent comments'during songs. We'll be into the 'Free toast' before you know it...

LTS

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:43 PM

Speaking of McIntyre, I understand that an American female country singing is quite popular in Mexico. You hear many Mexican singers, in the middle of a song, shouting out, "Ah, Reba!"

I'll go now. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 02:31 AM

Not a moment too soon, Don. ;-)

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Pictue it
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 10:53 PM

The group of "drunken clods" are sitting in the smokey burning pub when one has the idea to lock the door, but he's buzzed and quite comfy sitting with his mug. He puts the idea out there so someone will do it, as he can't make out which of his pals is closest to the door. Pal#2 thinks it might have been their buddy Mac and assigns the job to him to save himself the trouble of doing it.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 06:05 AM

"Ill-behaved audiences can be heard to interject irreverent comments to this day,"

Yea like the line in Stephen Foster's Hard Times

Tis a Whale herd upon the shore" and who canresist the rejoinder in the pause?


"Thar she blows!"

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 08:47 AM

I can, Mr Red ~~ & I can get pissed off every time it happens, coz such idiocies are only funny once; or 2ce at most.

See thread on Pleasant & Delightful, on which I denounced the silly popping noise on 'gold ring from finger' &c, expecting to get shot down in flames, but to my surprise got only supportive posts agreeing with me about how fed up people were getting with such childish, facetious shenanigans.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 09:47 AM

Yes, all such "childish, facetious shenanigans" should be banned at folk club sessions, punishment to be drawn and quartered.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:26 AM

As opposed to Child ballads, music hall songs usually have a childish or childlike humour. With this song, it is particularly adequate for the audience to behave childishly, so that children don't get the impression that excessive drinking is actually mature behaviour.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:34 AM

Yes, fair enough, Grishka, as regards the McIntyre tradition.. It was the self-satisfied description of the pertinacious insertion of "Thar She Blows" into a song that mentions whales that sounded not all that side-splittingly hilarious to me.

~M~

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:58 AM

I think that I first heard someone shout "McIntyre", during the singing of this song, in about 1967 (44 years ago. My, doesn't time fly?). That was also the year during which I first heard someone make a 'plopping' sound by rapidly withdrawing their finger from their mouth during the singing of 'Pleast and Delightful' ("Then a ring from off her finger she most instantly drew."). These interjections were mildly amusing then but now they've moved beyond boorish to realms undreamed of in the annals of boorishness!! And both songs are a bunch of boring shite too!! It's a good job that the law doesn't allow me to carry a pistol!!!!!

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 12:17 PM

Not to mention the dog yelps when someone sails away in their bark/barque, or toasts the crowd with a good glass of cider.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 03:25 PM

Plays with the words in songs have their moments. I think we need to both know when to go for it, and when to refrain. One of my friends sings a lovely version of The Old Dun Cow, at a pub sing, and he usually points to someone to add the requisite "MacIntire". I like it that he often chooses someone new or shy, and it makes them feel included.
Another group of people I sing with, at a different pub, are much less likely to appreciate smart ass additions to the songs. (like the popping noise that goes with drawing the ring from his finger).

One that I confess really entertains me is in one of the local variants of "Drink old England Dry" (Drink

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 03:40 PM

Dang, don't know what happened to the rest of the above post, but here I am trying again.


Plays with the words in songs have their moments. I think we need to both know when to go for it, and when to refrain. One of my friends sings a lovely version of The Old Dun Cow, at a pub sing, and he usually points to someone to add the requisite "MacIntire". I like it that he often chooses someone new or shy, and it makes them feel included.
Another group of people I sing with, at a different pub, are much less likely to appreciate smart ass additions to the songs. (like the popping noise that goes with drawing the ring from his finger).

One that I confess really entertains me is in one of the local variants of "Drink old England Dry" (Drink Old Portland Dry) where the line about
"Canadians test their mettle" is followed by someone shouting "al-u-min-i-um".
Sometimes it's high spirits. Sometimes its high spirit consumption. Sometimes it's an sign that the song has been sung too many times recently, and needs a rest. Sometimes it depends on who does it. It certainly depends on who's singing it and where it's getting sung, whatever the song.
I once ended up with an entire room of folkies doing the Macarena to my singing of "When We Go Rolling Home" which disconcerted me for a moment (it WAS 1 a.m. on NY's)but it upset me much more when another folkie chewed them out for it as soon as we were done. I say, go with the flow. If a majority of the people want to be silly, stay and be silly or leave..
Ain't no such thing as a grown up folk musician, as far as I can tell, myself included.
Blessings,
Barbara,
*skreeeaaak* stepping down off the soapbox and kicking it aside.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 06:59 PM

There was Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
Oh how sinful,
Having a skinful,
Right in the middle of our pub.
Over there was a smelly little bear,
Somebody said "That's pooh!"
And we all got blue-blind, string-tangled drunk,
At the Toytown annual do.



"Work in progress!"

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Cameron
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 07:08 PM

I'd always assumed MacIntire was a clan rallying cry, to urge on one's men in battle. And of course this clearly was a battle; a battle to drink it all up before the firefighters got there to get in on the action.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 09:20 PM

Still working on it, and much of it will only make sense to those with a knowledge of UK children's tv 1960 to date!

Some friends & I in a public house,
Were playing dominoes the other night
When into the pub some characters came,
In monochrome (that's black & white)
"What's up" said I "who're are you?"
"Who are these folk? I had to ask it.
There was Andy, Teddy & Looby Loo
Snuggling in their basket.

"Oh" said the landlord, never you mind,
I think tonight will sure suit you.
Refresh your pints, soon you will find,
It's the Toytown annual do! ...

And .. There .. was ..
Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
Oh how sinful,
Having a skinful,
Right in the middle of our pub.
Over there was a smelly little bear,
Somebody said "That's pooh!"
And we all got blue-blind, string-tangled, drunk,
At the Toytown annual do.

Then into the pub came the Tracey boys,
And Parker, with Lady P in chains.
They each bought a round of eight real ales,
But they all started drinking Brain's!
The drinking reached such a fever pitch,
That when Mr Plod came on the scene.
Barney McGrew called out for Hugh,
And painted Camberwick Green, and … there … was ...

Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
Oh how sinful,
Having a skinful,
Right in the middle of our pub.
Over there was a smelly little bear,
Somebody said "That's pooh!"
And we all got blue-blind, string-tangled, drunk,
At the Toytown annual do.

The "Riverbank" crew were sat in a corner
Quietly drinking on their own.
Ratty & Mole had a pint of "Badger's",
Badger said, "Buy your own!"
There in a smock, stood 'Windy' Miller
They say "He's a patron of the arts"
They call him "Windy" 'cos his party piece
Is setting light to his farts .. and .. there .. was ..

Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
Oh how sinful,
Having a skinful,
Right in the middle of our pub.
Over there was a smelly little bear,
Somebody said "That's pooh!"
And we all got blue-blind, string-tangled drunk,
At the Toytown annual do.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 08:28 AM

Excellent, Nigel!
Any sign of Larry the Lamb or Noddy?


Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Max Johnson
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 09:10 AM

I shouted 'MacIntyre' because everybody else was shouting it. Be an idiot not to.

Except, sometimes, we shouted 'Mackintosh!'. My word, we knew how to have fun in those days.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 10:28 AM

Excellent, Nigel!
Any sign of Larry the Lamb or Noddy?

I had to leave Noddy out, last I saw him his Bells were jingle-jangling as his head bobbed up & down.
BigEars was smiling though!

And Larry Lamb was Mr Shipman in Gaving & Stacey. He was funny enough that any parody would seem pointless

Cheers

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 12:05 PM

Into the pub to shelter from the rain
Came the soldier boys of Pippin Fort
With 15 grams of good cocaine
They call their leader Captain Snort.
Stood by the bar were Popeye & Olive
Bluto offered her a fag.
She said "No thanks, I roll my own,
It's true, I'd rather have a 'shag'!

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Charmion
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 05:52 PM

That's a very, very British little number you've got going there, Nigel. In every single stanza there's something I wouldn't know if I didn't spend so much time browsing through Wikipedia!

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Joe_F
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 06:06 PM

Nigel: Surely the apostrophe in "who're are you" is a mistake.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 07:53 PM

Joe F:
You're quite right. Ignore the "'re"
A quick check of 'Mudcat Times' will show I was typing that after 2am (It won't show I was just home from the pub!)

This version of the song, although it needs some 'bending' of the scansion of the verse, can be considered 'Public Domain' from Wednesday morning onward. (By then it will have had its first outing)

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 08:28 PM

I 'think' this may be the final version:

Some friends & I in a public house,
Were playing dominoes the other night
When into the pub some characters came,
In monochrome (that's black & white)
"What's up" said I "who are you?"
"Who are these folk? I had to ask it.
There was Andy, Teddy & Looby Loo
Snuggling in their basket.

"Oh" said the landlord, never you mind,
I think tonight will sure suit you.
Refresh your pints, soon you will find,
That it's the Toytown annual do! ...
   
       Chorus:
And .. There .. was .. Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
Oh how sinful, Having a skinful,
Right in the middle of our pub.
Over there was a smelly little bear,
Somebody said "That's pooh!"
And we all got blue-blind, string-tangled drunk,
At the Toytown annual do.

Then into the pub came the Tracey boys,
And Parker, with Lady P in chains.
They each bought a round of eight real ales,
But they all started drinking Brains'!
The drinking reached such a fever pitch,
That when Mr Plod came on the scene.
Barney McGrew called out for Hugh,
And painted Camberwick Green, and … there … was ...

      Chorus:

The "Riverbank" crew were sat in a corner
Quietly drinking on their own.
Ratty & Mole had a pint of "Badger's",
Badger said, "Buy your own!"
There in a smock, stood 'Windy' Miller
They say "He's a patron of the arts"
They call him "Windy" 'cos his party piece
Is setting light to his farts .. and .. there .. was ..

      Chorus:

Into the pub to shelter from the rain
Came the soldier boys of Pippin Fort
With 15 grams of good cocaine
They call their leader Captain Snort.
Stood by the bar were Popeye & Olive
Bluto offered her a fag.
Said she "No thanks, I'll roll my own,
It's true, I'd rather have a 'shag'!

      Chorus:

The animals there included Rupert The Bear,
Sean The Sheep & Lamb Chop too.
From PontyPandy, Sam Tân said;
"I think I fancy ewe!"
The 'mouse organ' played its multiple pipes
As a soggy cloth cat came in view
Professor Yaffle said "No stereotypes"
Welsh racism will not do!

      Chorus:

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Diva
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 08:26 PM

Brilliant and the tune?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Barbara
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 09:19 PM

Oh come now, Diva, why else would this be in a thread about The Old Dun Cow?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 10:53 AM

First performance BBC Folk Club Cardiff last night.
"Toytown Annual Do" may now be considered Public Domain.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,John Orford
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 02:58 AM

For the origin of the Copper's "The Old Dun Cow caught Fire", you nust go back to Harry Champion. But the words and music are attributed to Harry Wincott and there are two versions, one like the Coppers and one like 'Arry.

Oh, there was Brown, upside down
Mopping up the whisky on the floor
"Booze, booze, booze" the firemen cried
As they come a knockin' at the door
"Don't let em in till it's all mopped up"
Someone said to MacIntyre.
And we all got blue blind paralytic drunk
When the Old Dun Cow caught fire

MacIntyre was presumably nearest the door. This is roughly the same as Harry Champion.

And there was Brown upside down
Lappin'' up the whiskey on the floor.
"Booze, booze!" The firemen cried
As they came knockin' on the door (clap clap)
Oh don't let 'em in till it's all drunk up
And somebody shouted MacIntyre! MACINTYRE!
And we all got blue-blind paralytic drunk
When the Old Dun Cow caught fire.

The Coppers, more or less'

Harry Champion's tune is rather different to the Coppers and, of course, is sung faster.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 05:32 AM

In the original version the line, which makes perfect sense, is 'Somebody said to mcIntyre. He was one of the drinkers, and appears in a later verse, rarely sung today

We got so drunk that we did not know the blooming cellar had caught fire.
Poor old Jones had the D.T.'s bad and wanted to retire.
"There's Old Nick," said another poor chap, "and he's poking the blooming fire.
"That's no bogy. It's a fireman, Tom, at least," said Macintyre.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 05:41 PM

nigel parsons , brillint

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 12:10 PM

rhyming slang innit?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 12:46 PM

It is brilliant, Nigel! I'd definitely like to perform it.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 28 Jul 12 - 07:58 AM

Guest....the part of any Rhymimg slang never rhymed with anything, that was the point, a secret code, so...me old china, never china plate....lets have a butchers   never butchers hook...I'm borassic...never borasic lint...there's a modern mockney which mises thr point with inventions such as ruby murray and brown bread.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jul 12 - 12:28 PM

Yorkshire Yankee:
It is brilliant, Nigel! I'd definitely like to perform it.

As I said above, I've done the first performance (last year). Feel free!

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 12 - 01:14 PM

Nice one, Nigel. Especially the chorus.

If I sang it I might be inclined to sing
"In colourful black and white"

instead of

"In monochrome (that's black & white)"

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 12:24 PM

MGoH:
Alternatives are acceptable. I take it you'd put two notes on '-ful'?

As I said, I consider it Public Domain, so the 'folk process' can come into play.

But ...
Anyone adding verses, please post them here!

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 29 Jul 12 - 11:19 PM

Thanks, Nigel. Will report back when I do... (won't be right away, though; all the folk clubs 'round here don't meet in August).

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 06:45 AM

Re 'Public Domain' ~~ Of course 'Trumpton', from which BBC Children's programme come the men whose names are used by Nigel, isn't in the public domain. But I don't imagine anyone is going to sue him over his adoption of 'Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble, Grubb'. Trumpton was, after all, a fire station, and these were firemen...

The Trumpton Fire Chief, IIRC, isn't given a name. perhaps he was McIntyre?

Oh, no ~~ checking back, he was called Captain Flack. Oh well -- it was just an idea.

~M~

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 12:01 PM

The Trumpton Fire Chief, IIRC, isn't given a name. perhaps he was McIntyre?

Oh, no ~~ checking back, he was called Captain Flack. Oh well -- it was just an idea.


It was on a quiz show recently (probably 'Pointless') to name the fire crew. Captain Flack was the lowest score. But one team got it wrong by naming 'Hugh'

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 09:17 PM

why not shout macentire,
perhaps it was a code to the others that there was a naked man presumably scottish who needed to be covered with a blanket because he was on fire and naked.
im sure its mac entire rather than macintyre , because it makes more sense.
so a naked scotsman who had caught fire, needed to be covered with a blanket.
true or false

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 09:19 PM

obviously this naked scotsman who was on fire had not been gelded or circumsised, thus the reference to entire, or in full possesion of all his equipment

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Sep 12 - 10:30 AM

You're definitely onto something, Schweik, but Mac was probably a dog, not a Scotsman. Don't they use the word 'entire' that way at dog shows?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Bugsy
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 04:34 AM

I've always sung it using the words a la Harry Champion listed below

Someone 'said' to MacIntyre.

Seems to make more sense

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 07:31 PM

did anyone just think to ask Barry ?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 08:47 PM

barry..who..do u mean bary mc entire

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Add to confusion
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 11:28 AM

Just stumbled across this old thread looking for something entirely different (thanks Google).
Though I originally heard this as McIntyre, I have also heard it sung as "somebody shouted back inside, so we all got..." Possibly got corrupted to McIntyre???

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:10 PM

Check out the original recording, where he clearly sings,

"Don't let 'em in 'till its all mopped up,
Somebody said to McIntyre..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPxW62EkPvk
Song starts at 2:57

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:34 PM

For the record ---

"When the Old Dun Cow Caught Fire is a music hall song written by Harry Wincott in 1893"

'Mainly Norfolk' website

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 05:44 PM

an example of a popsong being folk processed and possibly becoming traditional, people seem to enjoy shouting macintyre.
somebody said mcintyre is not going to stop people shouting out mcintyre or mac entire, thay have been shouting it out since at least 1965.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Thorne
Date: 14 Dec 15 - 06:24 PM

It was written by Harry Wincott, but I'm not sure if any of his lyrics survive -- love to see 'em if the have!

From a quick search it looks like Champion's lyrics and song recordings are the earliest, hard to say.
http://monologues.co.uk/musichall/Songs-W/When-Dun-Cow-Caught-Fire.htm

Wincott may have written the song for Champion to perform - http://www.harrywincott.co.uk/songs.htm

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: JHW
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 05:03 AM

'somebody said mcintyre is not going to stop people shouting out mcintyre...they have been shouting it out since at least 1965'
cf the shouting out of 'fine girl you are' or 'our souls' in the relevant songs.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 05:22 AM

Not so well known in some quarters. I've mainly heard it dahn sahf where everyone knows it and everyone shouts Macintyre. So when someone did sing it up here, I was the only eejit who shouted Macintyre....but the rest soon caught on, and by the end of the song, everyone was doing it! You can't stop the force of nature among folkies!

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Jim Ward
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 06:47 AM

The original lyrics as recorded by Harry Champion for the Columbia Graphophone Company in December 1911 clearly state "somebody said to MacIntyre" so MacIntyre was told by somebody not to "let 'em in".
Back in the early days of folk clubs, around 1960, HMV issued a compilation LP called "A Jug of Punch". One of the tracks on this LP was "When the Old Dun Cow Caught Fire" sung by Bob and Ron Copper (with banjo accompaniment!!). They had learned the song from Bob's father Jim Copper and somewhere along the line their chorus had become "somebody SHOUTED MacIntyre" As recordings of folk songs were pretty rare at this time every song on this LP was soon done to death in the folk clubs and the tradition of the audience shouting out MacIntire soon established.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 01:09 PM

How disgraceful, people enjoying themselves shouting out, and its all the fault. of the Coppers, the people processing Folk Music and they never asked permission, perhaps we should have a seance and contact Wincott and see what he thinks.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:15 PM

At least The Old Dun Cow is a comic song, so doesn't come to too much harm with a bit of (although imo insufferably irritating) flippancy, which might just perhaps have been a tiny bit amusing the first 900 times, but stretched as it has been to ∞...

Whereas I think that what has been done to Pleasant & Delightful, with all the finger-popping, looking in opposite directions, & other such fatuous histrionics to ruin a beautiful song ···

Yuk! The very thought of it makes me want to throw up -- & fantasise about finding out the original perpetrator and kicking him severely in the testicles. Did somebody say it was The Spinners? Even if they didn't originate it, they proliferated it; and should be bloody-well ashamed: a real blot on an otherwise deservedly admired and respected group.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:55 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWLMRiHhyQk The Spinners, they get blamed for everything, not guilty.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:09 PM

'Recorded off air from an edition of "My Kind of Folk", broadcast in 1968'

it sez below that video, Dick -- very early in Spinners' career. The finger-popping, eye-shading &c silliness, which I have myself seen them perpetrate, obviously came later. I fear your Not Guilty verdict somewhat premature.

Regards
≈M≈

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:11 PM

... and anyhow that was a radio broadcast. They wouldn't have done visual gags on the radio, would they?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:37 PM

why not,after all wot abaht the wireless ventriloquist
Peter Brough (26 February 1916 – 3 June 1999)[1] was an English radio ventriloquist who became a well-known name to audiences in the 1950s. He is associated with the puppet Archie Andrews.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 04:43 PM

I thought at the time Peter Brough & Archie Andrews -- based on US Charlie McCarthy Show I think -- a very odd thing to do on radio.    But at least there were two voices, even tho one knew it was just one man putting on two voices; and even if one couldn't see the puppet one could appreciate the humour of the dialogue. Not really quite the same thing as doing funny actions -- visual gags -- for laughs on the wireless, eh Dick?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 06:59 PM

funny actions?I plead not guilty.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 06:07 AM

To what? We're talking about The Spinners -- not you just for once, Dick. Not like you to be so anally egocentric!

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 06:56 AM

Nurse, Nurse, he needs the medication, quick.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 08:32 AM

Back to your [appropriately named?] Black Cuntry with you, Mr Sanguinary-tinted!

〠

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 09:15 AM

Let's not lose sight of the fact that - pending sheet music from the 1890s, which may not be discoverable - the original question has been reasonably answered.

They presumably shout "MacIntire" because of the folk process (in this case, mishearing).

It has the advantage of making sense, which no other explanation seems to.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 09:15 AM

Let's not lose sight of the fact that - pending sheet music from the 1890s, which may not be discoverable - the original question has been reasonably answered.

They presumably shout "MacIntire" because of the folk process (in this case, mishearing).

It has the advantage of making sense, which no other explanation seems to.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 09:15 AM

Bring on "the sharks they played melodeons".
Not the only part of that song that gets messed about!

As for certain actions done during "Wild Mountain Thyme" in some quarters......a panting sheepdog, Lassie, And so on......

And the more recent song to have odd interjections introduced into it is Keith Marsden's "Funeral Song" - when it gets to the line about "they had to send for extra chairs", people start piling up all the chairs in the room, more each time the chorus comes around, until there is a very unsteady monument of them! How disrespectful! ;-)

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 12:09 PM

well it could be interpreted as rhyming slang mcintyre equals fire.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 04:16 PM

Nobody has shown that "MacIntire" meant "fire" to anybody until after the song was repopularized by the Coppers.

To say that "MacIntire" means "fire" seems to be rationalizing after the fact. Particularly since Wincott himself clearly needed another name or word to rhyme with "fire."

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Hollowfox at work
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 04:26 PM

Some years ago I heard (was it Tony Barrand and John Roberts?) sing "somebody shouted back inside..." This made excellent sense to me.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 04:54 PM

"somebody shouted back inside..." was it the actress and the bishop

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 05:04 PM

"somebody shouted back inside..." was it the actress TO the bishop

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 05:29 PM

On the Harry Champion recording could the "when I was just like this" be a polite replacement for something else that rhymes with "miss" ?

Is the tune used now like that, or more like the Coppers' version?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 06:00 PM

See John Orford & Jim Ward above. Both correct.

Wincott was a very popular music hall song writer and wrote many for the hugely popular singer, Harry Champion. Since it was recorded by Harry in 1911 we can presume Harry wrote it specifically for Harry and likely Harry'd been performing it for years.

I have the recording on a Champion CD. It it sung very much faster than we ever hear it today and is somewhat longer. It isn't hard to believe that some ancestor Copper (Bob's father?) actually heard Champion sing it and came away with what he remembered. Or else some other singer in the area did and so taught it to Copper, Folk Processing.

As above, it's originally "somebody said to M." in the words on Harry Champion; Cockney Bill of London Town; WindyRidge CD; 1911 & 2001. I like it.

AIR, it's "old stale beer" but changing it to the beer of the day or some brand the singer doesn't like seems reasonable.

I can't help but imagine that Wincott based it (loosely) on some local newspaper article of a pub fire (a tragedy anywhere, nearly as sad as Deportee).

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 17 Dec 15 - 07:03 PM

Here is a couple of snippets from "The Era", London, dating the song precisely, and also allowing a glimpse on the show business of that time, not any less tough than today:

Saturday, 30 September 1893
Advertisements & Notices
When the Old Dun Cow Caught Fire, Chorus by C. B. and H. Villiers, Verses by A. E. Ellis, Music by Geo. Le Brun, should be a good Song, shouldn't it? MR CHARLES BIGNELL is Singing the above Song Nightie at THE LONDON PAVILION and ROYAL, HOLBORN. Lawyers' Letters invited. Agents, Didcott and Co.

Saturday, 07 October 1893
WHEN THE OLD DUN COW CAUGHIT FIRE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE ERA. Sir,-Will you kindly allow me space respecting the above song? Mr Charles Bignell, in your last issue, extensively advertised same as being his property, which somewhat amuses me, considering I am the author and composer of same. I thought of the idea of The Pub on Fire on Aug. 29th, then I wrote the chorus, and took it up to Mr Bignell; but not feeling disposed (in a monetary view) to await his time bv taking two or three days to write the verses up, I went and sold the song to Mr Harry Champion the same night, and this gentleman sang the song at Greenwich on Sept. 7th. Trusting you will insert this in justice to Mr Champion, who holds my assignment, I am, faithfully yours,
HARRY WINCOTT. 19, Longville-road, Newington

Saturday, 21 October 1893
WHEN THE OLD DUN COW CAUGHT FIRE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE ERA. Sir,-I regret having to trouble you again, but Mr Ellis, by his letter in your last issue, seems to imagine that I was alluding to his integrity when giving my explanation of the above. This is not so, as I am perfectly aware that when Mr Bignell commissioned him to write the song up he was ignorant of the fact that he would be writing up verses to my idea and chorus; and, as far as going to say he can prove that Mr George Le Brunn composed the music to their work, this I don't dispute, because I know that Mr Le Brunn did do so. Mr Fred. Eplett has since written another melody, which makes No. 5 who have had a finger in the pie, but I don't wish to insinuate that either Messrs Le Brunn, Eplett, or Ellis would intentionally wrong me. As Mr Ellis knows, music hall song writers are not paid exorbitant prices for their wares, and when an author strikes upon something original, it is not pleasant to lose the advantages from it. I have witnesses both in and out of the profession to prove that I wrote this chorus, and submitted it to Mr Bignell, who took a great fancy to it. I didn't care to take two or three days to write the verses up, hence my selling same to Mr Champion. In conclusion I might add that I was told the idea of this song would be written up, but I did not think the words of my chorus would be included. Trusting I have now fully explained miself to all concerned, I am, Sir, yours faithfully
HARRY WINCOTT. 19, Longville-road, Newington

(Not a full explanation to my taste. Who exactly wrote the verses sung by Champion?)

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 03:54 AM

(:-)

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 11:35 AM

Mudcatter Gayle sang this at the singaround, and it occurred to me later that MacIntire is (or is purported to be) cockney rhyming slang for 'fire.'

I thought MacIntire was spelled with a capital E.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 12:20 PM

Macintyre?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 02:43 PM

> it occurred to me later that MacIntire is (or is purported to be) cockney rhyming slang for 'fire.'

Suggested and disproved earlier in this thread.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 06:08 PM

That's funny. When I brought this thread up, it had only two posts on it. Now it's longer.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Johnny J
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 06:32 PM

Ach, an old pal "Ben" used to sing this all the time at Edinburgh Folk Club in the eighties.
I never realised the McIntyre meaning until now.
;-)

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Aug 21 - 06:31 PM

Gosh, I'm surprised that this has generated quite so many posts, some of a learned, even academic nature, others purely facetious. Me, a simple soul, I have never questioned it, just bellowed "MacIntyre" at the right moment, along with anyone else in the room who has heard the song before!
A bit like shouting "free toast" in Rolling Home, after that line about "let the toasts go free".

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Aug 21 - 02:14 PM

As well as the more famous shout of MacIntyre, it some places it was obligatory to make another interjection - so that after the line: -

...Mopping up the whisky on the floor.

You would hear the words Slip, slop, slip.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 21 - 06:22 AM

Free Toast sure and Our Souls in another song...

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Bugsy
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 10:27 PM

In Harry Champions 1911 rendition,
"Don't let 'em in 'til it's all mopped up
someone said to MacIntire"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPxW62EkPvk

Cheers

Bugsy