Why shout 'MacIntire'? - Old Dun Cow

Subject: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:25 AM

... or Mcintyre or however you want to spell it. I have a very vague recollection of asking this before, but nothing comes up on the mudcat search (or google), so ...
Most of us will recognise it from 'When the Old Dun Cow caught fire', and I guess it was a well-known catchphrase when the song was written. When I was a lad (50s, 60s) there was a string of adverts in the UK for Mackeson stout, where two bottles of stout (and I kid you not) would be boxing, running a race, or otherwise competing; one would drop behind/down/out until a bottle in the crowd yelled 'Mackeson!' and the loser would come back to life and win. It's tempting to think there's a connection here, that one came from the other.
Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: JHW
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:33 AM

Mackeson doesn't rhyme with fire

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:35 AM

Steve-

If you plow through all the old threads on this question, I believe you'll find the suggestion that the fire chief's name was "MacIntyre."

Works for me, and it does rhyme.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: s&r
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:38 AM

Read somewhere that shouting fire in a pub was illegal if there was no fire - hence MacIntyre from the audience

Stu

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: John J
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 08:33 AM

Or perhaps it was his round next?

JJ

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:44 AM

... or perhaps it means that it might have been MacIntyre who shouted, but the narrator isn't sure: so it would be punctuated, "Someone shouted ~~ MacIntyre?"

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Declan
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:01 AM

Because they are the words of the song. There doesn't have to be a reason for everything. Some things are just meant to be nonsensical.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:19 AM

"Why shout 'MacIntyre'?"

Why indeed?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Old Roger
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 11:20 AM

McIntire's was a brand of beer. The shout was one of excitement and exultation at the discovery of this treasure in the cellar. That's why folk shout it out now. It's in the spirit of the song.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 12:55 PM

well its better than shouting rhubarb

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:24 PM

The song was written by Harry Wincott.

You can read all about him here

I don't think there was a London Beer called McIntyre's. It was customary to put the word 'entire' after a brewer's name, however.

As in Nalder& Collyer's Entire....entire being a style of Porter or light stout (originally 6.6 abv!)

But it is doubtful whether this has anything to do with anything!

I guess Harry used the name because it fitted the song and rhymed with fire!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:31 PM

"Don't let them in till it's all mopped up, somebody." shouted McIntyre.

In other words McIntyre wanted the door barred until all the lads could finish guzzling the beer.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:39 PM

I think Seamus has nailed it. One of the other Mudcat threads about this song quotes the later verses, which show that McIntyre was one of the firemen. The "McIntyre!" call and response probably started as a deliberate misreading of an awkwardly-written line (the "somebody" comes after a definite pause, so it's easy to hear it as "somebody shouted 'McIntyre'", not "...somebody,' shouted McIntyre"). Ill-behaved audiences can be heard to interject irreverent comments to this day, as I discovered the first time I did Pleasant and Delightful.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 02:12 PM

maybe we should change the words to.
dont let em im in till its all mopped up,so..... shouted mcintyre

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 03:19 PM

Shouted TO McIntyre. McIntyre was nearest to the cellar door.
I almost wrote 'nearest the cellar door' which also lacks the TO.

I first heard the extra shout at a Liverpool Spinners concert.

Works for me.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 03:19 PM

...are you sure you are not using modern day vernacular to explain a problem that doesn't exist?

Harry was born and raised in Camberwell. One of the pubs on the Old Kent Road was the Dun Cow. I can remember it being there. It is now a doctor's surgery. He was noted as being inspired by the things around him to write his songs, so maybe the pub did actually have a fire and that gave him the idea!

Let Mcintyre be whoever you want him to be. Harry left no clue in the words he wrote. Like all songs that have become popular around the world, many extra verses, characters and tweaks have been added.

I bet Harry would chuckle at this thread!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: JeffB
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 03:37 PM

The words I've got are "somebody said to McIntyre." I got them off the Net so they must be right.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 04:53 PM

Ha Ha, Jeff.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 06:13 PM

There are at least two questions in here.

One is over the syntax of the original song words, for which several suggestions have been made, but none is altogether convincing. Does anyone have the words as originally printed?

The other question is why, after that line in the song has been sung, someone in the room will immediately shout "McIntyre". This has become a tradition in itself, but not one with any merit that I can see.

Richard

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 06:43 PM

yes, it has merit,it gets the audience participating,its even better,if several people shout it one after another[a sort of echo effect],even better if there is someone called mcintyre in the audience he/she can then get up and say,yes what do you want, the singer then says apint for everyone in the house,the whole song then goes off on a diversionary trail for a few minutes,and everyone has a good time,then everyones goes back to the old dun cow again.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 06:47 PM

"This has become a tradition in itself, but not one with any merit that I can see."

Well said Good Soldier Schweik :-)

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:31 PM

Pete - there isn't a problem, it's just an interesting topic for some of us. We may never work out what the lyrics mean, but I don't think we're doing any harm by discussing them. We're certainly not doing the song any harm - we're drawing attention to it.

Here's a couple of old threads which quote published lyrics, including another appearance by the elusive McIntyre.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:22 PM

I am surprised no one has mentioned the likelihood of 'MacIntire' being rhyming slang for 'fire' which to me makes the most sense. This also fits in with the music hall origins of the song as well as fitting the meter and the way the song is typically sung. I have not ever seen the original sheet music, though.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:43 PM

This rhyming slang interpretation is surely discounted by the facts that:

the potman has already given the alarm of fire;

Brown has already suggested the advantage to be taken of the situation;

and has forbidden the admittance of the firemen (whose object appears to be to share in the "Booze, booze" rather than to put out the fire) till it was "all mopped up":

and only then did somebody shout "MacIntyre" ~~ a bit late by that time to purport to raise the alarm, eh?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:22 AM

I go with rhyming slang.Why not SHOUT Mcintyre,its an interesting philosophical point,some dont like it because it means people might be attempting to be light hearted,and some people can only enjoy themselves if being serious and scholarly.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:45 AM

Becoz, Dick, there is no point shouting FIRE or its rhyming·slang equivalent when everybody knows there's a fire & the fire brigade is already there, is there? It would just conflict with the narrative momentum of the song. That's not being serious & scholarly, that's making sense of what's being sung. Take one of your songs that I often listen to: you wouldn't sing the first verse of The Month Of January in the middle of It Was On One April Morning, just for a giggle, would you?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Fran
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 02:24 AM

We always used to shout "DUNLOP" in South Tyne Folk and Blues Club - that's Geordie humour for you!

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 02:32 AM

What other songs require shouting? - Baltimore Fire is the one I think of right off the bat.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 05:02 AM

That's a very old joke, Fran!

Digression: There was a Dun Cow in Bloxwich where Arthur 'Not now, Arthur!' Tolcher came from. Remember the chap with the harmonica at the end of the Morecambe & Wise show?

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 06:39 AM

good point m the g m.
however my point was not aimed at you,but more at shimrods,who i sense disapproves of the practice of singning it in clubs.
the old traditional singers at the blaxhall ship had no problem enjoying them selves,when cyril poacher sang the broomfield wager,they used to join in and sing hold the wheel [a visiting american tourist had misheard had her will for hold the wheel,and asked cyril why he sung hold the wheel in the song ,so the rest of the blaxhall singers used to think it a great joke,to join in with cyril singing the wrong words.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:34 AM

Ploughed all the way through this thread only to find that you had beaten me to it Fran :-(
I think that Pete "(C)Rapper" Brown was the instiator of that jape.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:50 AM

The rhyming slang for fire I learned was 'Jerimiah', not MacIntyre.

MacIntyre is a large firm of builders... there have been experiments in shouting 'Wimpey', 'Bovis' and other firms but they haven't caught on...

I get the feeling that the sour grapes is more at "ill-behaved audiences' who 'interject irreverent comments'during songs. We'll be into the 'Free toast' before you know it...

LTS

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:43 PM

Speaking of McIntyre, I understand that an American female country singing is quite popular in Mexico. You hear many Mexican singers, in the middle of a song, shouting out, "Ah, Reba!"

I'll go now. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 02:31 AM

Not a moment too soon, Don. ;-)

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Pictue it
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 10:53 PM

The group of "drunken clods" are sitting in the smokey burning pub when one has the idea to lock the door, but he's buzzed and quite comfy sitting with his mug. He puts the idea out there so someone will do it, as he can't make out which of his pals is closest to the door. Pal#2 thinks it might have been their buddy Mac and assigns the job to him to save himself the trouble of doing it.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 06:05 AM

"Ill-behaved audiences can be heard to interject irreverent comments to this day,"

Yea like the line in Stephen Foster's Hard Times

Tis a Whale herd upon the shore" and who canresist the rejoinder in the pause?


"Thar she blows!"

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 08:47 AM

I can, Mr Red ~~ & I can get pissed off every time it happens, coz such idiocies are only funny once; or 2ce at most.

See thread on Pleasant & Delightful, on which I denounced the silly popping noise on 'gold ring from finger' &c, expecting to get shot down in flames, but to my surprise got only supportive posts agreeing with me about how fed up people were getting with such childish, facetious shenanigans.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 09:47 AM

Yes, all such "childish, facetious shenanigans" should be banned at folk club sessions, punishment to be drawn and quartered.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:26 AM

As opposed to Child ballads, music hall songs usually have a childish or childlike humour. With this song, it is particularly adequate for the audience to behave childishly, so that children don't get the impression that excessive drinking is actually mature behaviour.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:34 AM

Yes, fair enough, Grishka, as regards the McIntyre tradition.. It was the self-satisfied description of the pertinacious insertion of "Thar She Blows" into a song that mentions whales that sounded not all that side-splittingly hilarious to me.

~M~

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 11:58 AM

I think that I first heard someone shout "McIntyre", during the singing of this song, in about 1967 (44 years ago. My, doesn't time fly?). That was also the year during which I first heard someone make a 'plopping' sound by rapidly withdrawing their finger from their mouth during the singing of 'Pleast and Delightful' ("Then a ring from off her finger she most instantly drew."). These interjections were mildly amusing then but now they've moved beyond boorish to realms undreamed of in the annals of boorishness!! And both songs are a bunch of boring shite too!! It's a good job that the law doesn't allow me to carry a pistol!!!!!

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 12:17 PM

Not to mention the dog yelps when someone sails away in their bark/barque, or toasts the crowd with a good glass of cider.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 03:25 PM

Plays with the words in songs have their moments. I think we need to both know when to go for it, and when to refrain. One of my friends sings a lovely version of The Old Dun Cow, at a pub sing, and he usually points to someone to add the requisite "MacIntire". I like it that he often chooses someone new or shy, and it makes them feel included.
Another group of people I sing with, at a different pub, are much less likely to appreciate smart ass additions to the songs. (like the popping noise that goes with drawing the ring from his finger).

One that I confess really entertains me is in one of the local variants of "Drink old England Dry" (Drink

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Barbara
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 03:40 PM

Dang, don't know what happened to the rest of the above post, but here I am trying again.


Plays with the words in songs have their moments. I think we need to both know when to go for it, and when to refrain. One of my friends sings a lovely version of The Old Dun Cow, at a pub sing, and he usually points to someone to add the requisite "MacIntire". I like it that he often chooses someone new or shy, and it makes them feel included.
Another group of people I sing with, at a different pub, are much less likely to appreciate smart ass additions to the songs. (like the popping noise that goes with drawing the ring from his finger).

One that I confess really entertains me is in one of the local variants of "Drink old England Dry" (Drink Old Portland Dry) where the line about
"Canadians test their mettle" is followed by someone shouting "al-u-min-i-um".
Sometimes it's high spirits. Sometimes its high spirit consumption. Sometimes it's an sign that the song has been sung too many times recently, and needs a rest. Sometimes it depends on who does it. It certainly depends on who's singing it and where it's getting sung, whatever the song.
I once ended up with an entire room of folkies doing the Macarena to my singing of "When We Go Rolling Home" which disconcerted me for a moment (it WAS 1 a.m. on NY's)but it upset me much more when another folkie chewed them out for it as soon as we were done. I say, go with the flow. If a majority of the people want to be silly, stay and be silly or leave..
Ain't no such thing as a grown up folk musician, as far as I can tell, myself included.
Blessings,
Barbara,
*skreeeaaak* stepping down off the soapbox and kicking it aside.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 06:59 PM

There was Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
Oh how sinful,
Having a skinful,
Right in the middle of our pub.
Over there was a smelly little bear,
Somebody said "That's pooh!"
And we all got blue-blind, string-tangled drunk,
At the Toytown annual do.



"Work in progress!"

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Cameron
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 07:08 PM

I'd always assumed MacIntire was a clan rallying cry, to urge on one's men in battle. And of course this clearly was a battle; a battle to drink it all up before the firefighters got there to get in on the action.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 09:20 PM

Still working on it, and much of it will only make sense to those with a knowledge of UK children's tv 1960 to date!

Some friends & I in a public house,
Were playing dominoes the other night
When into the pub some characters came,
In monochrome (that's black & white)
"What's up" said I "who're are you?"
"Who are these folk? I had to ask it.
There was Andy, Teddy & Looby Loo
Snuggling in their basket.

"Oh" said the landlord, never you mind,
I think tonight will sure suit you.
Refresh your pints, soon you will find,
It's the Toytown annual do! ...

And .. There .. was ..
Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
Oh how sinful,
Having a skinful,
Right in the middle of our pub.
Over there was a smelly little bear,
Somebody said "That's pooh!"
And we all got blue-blind, string-tangled, drunk,
At the Toytown annual do.

Then into the pub came the Tracey boys,
And Parker, with Lady P in chains.
They each bought a round of eight real ales,
But they all started drinking Brain's!
The drinking reached such a fever pitch,
That when Mr Plod came on the scene.
Barney McGrew called out for Hugh,
And painted Camberwick Green, and … there … was ...

Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
Oh how sinful,
Having a skinful,
Right in the middle of our pub.
Over there was a smelly little bear,
Somebody said "That's pooh!"
And we all got blue-blind, string-tangled, drunk,
At the Toytown annual do.

The "Riverbank" crew were sat in a corner
Quietly drinking on their own.
Ratty & Mole had a pint of "Badger's",
Badger said, "Buy your own!"
There in a smock, stood 'Windy' Miller
They say "He's a patron of the arts"
They call him "Windy" 'cos his party piece
Is setting light to his farts .. and .. there .. was ..

Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
Oh how sinful,
Having a skinful,
Right in the middle of our pub.
Over there was a smelly little bear,
Somebody said "That's pooh!"
And we all got blue-blind, string-tangled drunk,
At the Toytown annual do.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 08:28 AM

Excellent, Nigel!
Any sign of Larry the Lamb or Noddy?


Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: GUEST,Max Johnson
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 09:10 AM

I shouted 'MacIntyre' because everybody else was shouting it. Be an idiot not to.

Except, sometimes, we shouted 'Mackintosh!'. My word, we knew how to have fun in those days.

Subject: RE: Why shout 'MacIntire'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Feb 11 - 10:28 AM

Excellent, Nigel!
Any sign of Larry the Lamb or Noddy?

I had to leave Noddy out, last I saw him his Bells were jingle-jangling as his head bobbed up & down.
BigEars was smiling though!

And Larry Lamb was Mr Shipman in Gaving & Stacey. He was funny enough that any parody would seem pointless

Cheers