BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters

Subject: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: olddude
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:05 AM

A Florida doctor put up a sign that if you voted for Obama, go elsewhere.

Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal, this is sure no doctor I would want treating me for any illness

florida doc

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: olddude
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:07 AM

oops try this link

oops here it is

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:19 AM

Now he has said he won't refuse to threat them, but if they decide to go elsewhere as a result of the sign, "so be it".

However, even if I agreed with him about Obama, I still wouldn't trust him as my doctor. He clearly doesn't have any respect whatever for his hippocratic oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:35 AM

Oh, I think that saying "I'm not turning anybody away — that would be unethical" takes care of the Hippocratic Oath...doesn't make him less of a jerk, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:40 AM

Wouldn't take care of it for me, artbrooks, because as a patient, I'm not thinking in legal terms, but in terms of whether or not I would trust him as a doctor. If he can play those kinds of games with his Hippocratic oath, I would have a lot of trouble trusting him. Clearly, he is only concerned with the letter of the oath but not the spirit of the oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: olddude
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:49 AM

I have doctor friends, they have views on everything, but when a patient comes in because they are sick, they focus on the illness and how to get them better, they don't discuss politics, religion or anything other than medicine in their practice. That is why they became a doctor. This guy I guess wants to use it to further a political agenda. He would never treat me, even if I agreed with him (which I don't). I think it is so wrong for a doctor to do that and like Carol said, how can he be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:05 AM

I've been to Mount Dora many times. For those of you who have read "Alas Babylon" it's thought that Mount Dora was used as a model for "Fort Repose".

Yes the doctor is an idjet. But he's within his rights to suggest - nor require - that patients seek their care somewhere else. I know that I for one would not want him to treat me. He's clueless in a lot of ways. I think he's upset because he feels he might make less money under the new plan. And that would be upsetting to many many doctors.

Hey - he's a urologist. He's pissed anyway....

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:09 AM

Mostly the only doctors who don't support the new law are highly paid specialists. Most family doctors and general practitioners support health care reform, and a lot of those support single payer not for profit, or at the very least, a public option.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:17 AM

That's wierd.

I thought the Obama administration told us that "the Doctors" were for the health care reform bill.

Doctors wouldn't support a reform agenda if they believed it would lead to government interference in the doctor-patient relationship, Obama said.

"When you cut through all the noise and all the distractions that are out there, I think what's most telling is that some of the people who are most supportive of reform are the very medical professionals who know the health care system best: the doctors and nurses of America," he said.

This guy must be a defector. He actually has the nerve to disagree. Shouldn't he be demonized because he disagrees and wants to express his disagreement? He is just a noise and distraction just like anyone that disagrees, not an American Citizen with a right to protest. Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:23 AM

Most doctors do support health care reform, Sawzaw...

Majority of Physicians Support Health Reform that Includes Both Public and Private Insurance Options


As I said in my last post, it's the highly paid specialists, like this urologist, who do not support it.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:28 AM

Guy's obviously an asshole first, and a doctor second. Maybe they can get his license pulled - see how he likes that.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: olddude
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:37 AM

Of course he is entitled to his opinion, but as a doctor if he uses his opinion in regard to his practice he should not be a doctor ... unless ya haven't figured it out, they are suppose to deal with by oath and ethics ... "matters of illness". privately do whatever you want but in the practice if you do that, you are treading the line of your oath and ethics ... so do something else ... that's the point ... his opinion is not the point here

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: olddude
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:44 AM

By the way in the state of New York, if a doctor does not want to treat a patient any longer they must send a certified letter indicating they will no longer treat the patient unless in a case of a medical emergency ... if they don't they can be in front of the medical ethics board and open to civil and legal actions ... So he should send every one of his patients a letter like that saying if you are a democrat ... yada yada ... see how long he stays in practice

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:56 AM

I would have thought that the sign itself was serious professional misconduct. I'm sure the BMA in the UK would so treat it - much as I would like to see BNP goons denied treatment (or the dole that most of them live off).

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM

This sort of knee jerk reaction is happening everywhere. I heard that there are some whorehouses in Nevada where the girls have put up signs out front saying, "Republican? Against Health Reform? Voted for McCaine? Don't come looking for your fun HERE!"

I can definitely see this sort of petty, tit-for-tat retaliation eventually leading to another American civil war. Boy, am I ever glad I live in Canada! ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 11:33 AM

Are you comparing doctors to prostitutes, LH? I guess in the case of this particular doctor, you might have a point.   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:00 PM

What's the difference between a doctor and a prostitute? The sell services for money.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: pdq
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:02 PM

What's the difference between a politician and a prostitute? They sell services for money.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: GUEST,Janet
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:09 PM

My GP in RI is very conservative. He went to GW Bush's inauguaration (first, I think--maybe the 2nd, too, for all I know) and one of the balls. He told me how beautiful the daughters were. He went on and on about how much the US would benefit from having Bush as pres. He's a good doctor, so I kept quiet, but I'll never feel the same way about him. Anyone else wonder how many trained, experienced broadcast journalists were passed over when the Today show hired one of Bush's daughters?

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:22 PM

When I went to a specialist in WY, several years ago, I had a monthly op/ed column in the statewide newspaper, so he knew my liberal politics before I even met him. He loved debating with me on whatever the latest issue was current. It was civil and interesting; we even joked about starting our own Sunday Salon for folks to come together. One time, we talked for over an hour. When it was time for me to go, he said "no charge" as he'd gotten as much out of our visit as he felt I had received in treatment. At the time, I had no health insurance, so the ninety dollar charge was steep.

The same type of specialist, here, recently agreed with me that we need, as he put it, medicare for ALL, single payer, etc. So not all specialists are against it.

The guy in FL is an idiot and I hope is investigated by the AMA or whomever.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:35 PM

What's the difference between a wage earner and a prostitute? They both sell services for money.

I think it is not only they who are getting weird. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:39 PM

CC: "the Doctors" were given three choices. They were not asked if they "support health care reform" as you characterize it.

Doctors on Coverage - Physicians' Views on a New Public Insurance Option and Medicare Expansion

Survey respondents were asked to indicate which of three options for expanding health insurance coverage they would most strongly support: public and private options, providing people younger than 65 years of age the choice of enrolling in a new public health insurance plan (like Medicare) or in private plans; private options only, providing people with tax credits or subsidies, if they have low income, to buy private insurance coverage, without creating a new public plan; or a public option only, eliminating private insurance and covering everyone through a single public plan like Medicare. We also assessed the level of physician support for a proposal that would enable adults between the ages of 55 and 64 years to buy into the current Medicare program a strategy that the Senate Finance Committee has proposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 12:54 PM

I don't think it is fair to say that specialists are generally against the Law even though among medical workers, they have the most to lose.

Note that Colburn of OK and Paul of Texas are medical specialist in Congress but it is easy to believe that their objections to the Law are not just fueled by their medical self-interests.

Likewise it is my feeling that the Doctor in Florida did what he did because he is a tea bagger first and a doctor second. That would more precisely explain his rude attitude and his lack of concern for the constitutional provision of the secret ballot.

If it were about the money, he would not be discouraging business.

By the way it is NOT about his right to express his opinion. Apparently he has been doing that all along with anti health reform pamphlets and posters in his office.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:02 PM

On March 10th, 15 state and national medical specialty organizations representing 85,000 physicians across the nation wrote a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Minority Leader John Boehner voicing their opposition to the Senate bill (H.R. 3590),

The Honorable Nancy Pelosi
Speaker
United House of Representatives

The Honorable John Boehner
Minority Leader
United House of Representatives

Dear Speaker Pelosi and Minority Leader Boehner:

The undersigned state and national specialty medical societies -- representing more than 85,000
physicians and the millions of patients they serve -- are writing to oppose passage of the
"Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act" (H.R. 3590) by the House of Representatives.

The changes that were recently proposed by President Obama do not address our many concerns with this legislation, and we therefore urge you to draft a more patient-centered bill that will
reform the country's flawed system for financing healthcare, while preserving the best healthcare in the world. While we agree that the status quo is unacceptable, shifting so much control over medical decisions to the federal government is not justified and is not in our patients' best interest. We are therefore united in our resolve to achieve health system reform that empowers patients and preserves the practice of medicine -- without creating a huge government
bureaucracy.....

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:02 PM

A prostitute sells her body for money, not her mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:15 PM

Sawzaw,

In typical Republican fashion you are reading what is not there to make a self serving position. I think that if you were to carefully read the articles linked to by both you and Carol you might find that there were many questions asked and that what you are quoting was the presentation of data from three questions.

As for me, what am I to believe; the straightforward words of The Robert Woods Johnson Foundation, the professionals who conducted the survey, and the News site that published the article or your conclusions from a cursory scan searching for flaws and gimmicks?

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:18 PM

Jack the Sailor said, in part:

he is a tea bagger first and a doctor second. That would more precisely explain his rude attitude and his lack of concern for the constitutional provision of the secret ballot.

"Rude attitude", right. But there was nothing that I read in the article or earlier in this thread that suggests he had a "lack of concern for the constitutional provision of the secret ballot."

Though I would be one who he suggests should pass him by, I would point out that he merely puts his attitude out there in public and lets the established or potential patient make the judgment. He doesn't appear to require an affidavit of non-Obama voting.

David Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:29 PM

According to those in the know, of the doctors who are opposed to health care reform, the majority tend to be specialists rather than general practitioners and family doctors, who tend to support health care reform.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:31 PM

Sawzaw,

Cut the bullshit will you?

First you argue that the Doctors do not support Reform.

>>CC: "the Doctors" were given three choices. They were not asked if they "support health care reform" as you characterize it.

Then you argue that they think it is unacceptable NOT TO HAVE REFORM that their opinion is

>>"While we agree that the status quo is unacceptable,"

Like a Republican, you are just picking every negative nit and throwing at the wall hoping that enough shit stick to paint an ugly picture.

Make one argument from one side and support it will you?

By the way, I find it very unlikely that 15 associations speaks for a majority of the doctors. Couldn't it be assumed that at least 35 state associations showed tacit approval of the Bill by NOT signing the letter? In fact I find it likely that of all the specialty associations in the country the heads of 15 could be staunch Republicans or Tea Baggers whose main interest in writing that letter was defeating Obama rather than "the best interest of patients."

While polling is a bad way to govern, caving to political stunts is worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:47 PM

DaveO

It shows a profound lack of respect for the process. Its no one's business how a person votes unless they choose to tell them. People are protected from having negative consequences from their votes by the secret ballot. That's WHY it is secret.

In this case I think that an extra burden is on the Doctor not to even HINT at an interest in how a person voted.

If a Tea Bagger asks you how you voted then, unless you want to confront him and talk politics, the proper response is, respectfully, "That is not your business, I am here so that you can stick that catheter up my pee hole."

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 02:03 PM

Sawzaw, that letter is from 10 state organizations (mostly in the South) and 5 national organizations (all surgeons). I wonder how much overlap that represents, and if all (or even a majority) of their membership signed off. There were over 570,000 physicians and surgeons in the US in 2004 (the most recent number I could find in a brief search)...that doesn't count DOs, PAs and Nurse Practitioners. 85K is a pretty small percentage.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: DougR
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 02:43 PM

Like it or not, the doctor has a right to accept or declilne a prospective patient.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 03:44 PM

I don't think that's necessarily true, Doug, or this guy wouldn't have felt a need to cover his ass, legally, by saying that he's not really turning away any patients.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 03:48 PM

This statement does not indicate that doctors do not support reform:

CC: "the Doctors" were given three choices. They were not asked if they "support health care reform" as you characterize it.

It indicates they were not asked if they "support health care reform" In the survey. That CC linked to.

The percentages quoted in the survey were based on which of the three choices they chose, not on "do you support health care reform." or "do you support the health care reform bill"

Nearly 97% of doctors support some sort of health care reform.

So do I.

You and CC jump to the conclusion that anybody that objects to the health care bill does not want health care reform.

Any body the does not like the bill is against health care bill must be demonized as an enemy of health care reform.

That is not the case. The claim that to be against the bill is the be against health care reform is a false dichotomy, a false dilemma, a logical fallacy.

Good decisions are not based on false logic. Even the 85,000 doctors behind that letter are not "against" health care reform if you bother to read it.

If you read the piece CC cited, you will see that only 27% of doctors said they would support health care reform if it did not have a public option which is a minority of doctors because the bill does not have the public option.

Even Bill O'Reilly of the hated Fox News Network is for health care reform and the public option.

    NINA OWCHARENKO: [Heritage Foundation] Well, it has massive new federal regulation. So you don't necessarily need a public option if the federal government is going to control and regulate the type of health insurance that Americans can buy.

    O'REILLY: But you know, I want that, Ms. Owcharenko. I want that. I want, not for personally for me, but for working Americans, to have a option, that if they don't like their health insurance, if it's too expensive, they can't afford it, if the government can cobble together a cheaper insurance policy that gives the same benefits, I see that as a plus for the folks.

BILL O'REILLY: I believe that we do need health care reform in this country. I believe there are a lot of people who can't afford health insurance, and that the insurance companies because I have to deal with them. I'm an employer.

ANN COULTER: Right.

O'REILLY: And I have I'm self-insured. And it's a pain in the butt to deal with them sometimes. You know, they're trying to hose you.

COULTER: Absolutely.

O'REILLY: They're sending you all of this kind of crap that they don't have to, just to give you a hard time, wear you down.

COULTER: Right.

O'REILLY: So I think most Americans want health care reform.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 04:09 PM

I'll obliterate your arguments later, Sawzaw. I don't have time right now. I've got in-laws coming tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Arkie
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 04:39 PM

If health care problems had not been addressed now, in just a very few years the country would be facing a severe health care crisis as health coverage continued to escalate and more and more people became unable to pay for care. One does not need magical powers to see that. However, the Republicans in Congress placed politics over the interest of the country's citizens and chose to try to alter public opinion with misinformation and made a determined effort to defeat the reform rather than accept open, honest appeals from the Obama administration to join in the reform effort. To make matters worse the buffoons on Fox "news" bombarded the public with outright lies and scare tactics creating a climate that made it even more difficult for sensible Republicans to join the reform effort. The one thing they could fall back on was that since the GOP did not intentionally contribute to the reform bill they could at least have some freedom to criticize the bill that was passed. The second strategy, should the bill pass, was to claim that the bill opponents were for reform. A strategy that will work to some degree since there are so many in this country that have no memory for past events are are willing to let their puppeteers tell them what they are to remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 04:55 PM

I got just one question. Does this doctor in Florida treat chimps?

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 05:21 PM

Yeah Obliterate them, stomp them into the ground, Teach me a lesson. Make me look bad,

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 05:24 PM

Ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 05:25 PM

If you REALLY want to get stomped, I could send Chongo over...

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Genie
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 05:49 PM

David O, I don't particularly care if my doctors express their political opinions (unless I'm undergoing a test or treatment that might be screwed up if I'm feeling pissed off), but this doc did more than just say he's not an Obama fan.   Whether intended in jest or not, he basically told his patients to take a hike if they didn't agree with his politics, and I'd have trouble trusting someone like that again, in anything where subjective judgment was concerned.
He now says patients won't be turned away or treated differently if they voted for Obama, but no human being can honestly be sure that they're not treating people differently based on things like prejudices and feelings. Medical errors do occur, under the best of circumstances, and I don't need my doctor disliking or disapproving of me to increase their likelihood.


Doug R, I'm not sure you're right that a doctor has a right to refuse to treat a patient without good reason (e.g., that s/he already has a full patient load).   That may vary state to state. But if that were the case, then doctors would be within their legal rights to refuse to treat people based on race, religion, age, sexual orientation, or (heaven forbid) the patient's being sick!

Little Hawk, would YOU want to be serviced by a prostitute who said she hated you and your kind? (OK, maybe if you're into S & M, but ... )
I wouldn't want to hire an electrician, auto mechanic, babysitter, or most any other kind of provider if they'd publicly stated they don't want to do business with people who disagree with their politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 06:01 PM

Actually Carol didn't say this. She quoted it.

"Majority of Physicians Support Health Reform that Includes Both Public and Private Insurance Options "

The article talks about a lot of things that COULD NOT logically be extrapolated from those three questions. The New England Journal article DOES NOT say those were the only three questions.

That is the headline from the article Sawzaw. If you think that The Robert Woods Johnson foundation and the professionals who ran that survey and the news people who reported it extrapolated that from ONLY those three questions, I have nothing more to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 06:11 PM

>>I wouldn't want to hire an electrician, auto mechanic, babysitter, or most any other kind of provider if they'd publicly stated they don't want to do business with people who disagree with their politics. <<

But it sure would help with the law suit.

Your honor, I don't know if he gave me too little demerol or too much. But when I blurted "Obama Biden 2012" He put down the catheter and picked up a large barbed fishhook. Since I was tied down, for my own protection, he said, and I could not move. The result is what you see here.
(Jury Gasps!!)
I had hoped to have children but as you now see, that is an impossibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: pdq
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 06:13 PM

Here is the actual story as linked to:

Doctor tells Obama supporters: Go elsewhere for health care

A Mount Dora doctor posted a sign telling Obama health care supporters to go elsewhere.

April 02, 2010|By Stephen Hudak, Orlando Sentinel

MOUNT DORA — A doctor who considers the national health-care overhaul to be bad medicine for the country posted a sign on his office door telling patients who voted for President Barack Obama to seek care "elsewhere."

"I'm not turning anybody away — that would be unethical," Dr. Jack Cassell, 56, a Mount Dora urologist and a registered Republican opposed to the health plan, told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday. "But if they read the sign and turn the other way, so be it."

The sign reads: "If you voted for Obama … seek urologic care elsewhere. Changes to your healthcare begin right now, not in four years."

Estella Chatman, 67, of Eustis, whose daughter snapped a photo of the typewritten sign, sent the picture to U.S. Rep. Alan Grayson, the Orlando Democrat who riled Republicans last year when he characterized the GOP's idea of health care as, "If you get sick, America … Die quickly."

Chatman said she heard about the sign from a friend referred to Cassell after his physician recently died. She said her friend did not want to speak to a reporter but was dismayed by Cassell's sign.

"He's going to find another doctor," she said.

Cassell may be walking a thin line between his right to free speech and his professional obligation, said William Allen, professor of bioethics, law and medical professionalism at the University of Florida's College of Medicine.

Allen said doctors cannot refuse patients on the basis of race, gender, religion, sexual orientation or disability, but political preference is not one of the legally protected categories specified in civil-rights law. By insisting he does not quiz his patients about their politics and has not turned away patients based on their vote, the doctor is "trying to hold onto the nub of his ethical obligation," Allen said.

"But this is pushing the limit," he said.

Cassell, who has practiced medicine in GOP-dominated Lake County since 1988, said he doesn't quiz his patients about their politics, but he also won't hide his disdain for the bill Obama signed and the lawmakers who passed it.

In his waiting room, Cassell also has provided his patients with photocopies of a health-care timeline produced by Republican leaders that outlines "major provisions" in the health-care package. The doctor put a sign above the stack of copies that reads: "This is what the morons in Washington have done to your health care. Take one, read it and vote out anyone who voted for it."

Cassell, whose lawyer wife, Leslie Campione, has declared herself a Republican candidate for Lake County commissioner, said three patients have complained, but most have been "overwhelmingly supportive" of his position.

"They know it's not good for them," he said.

Cassell, who previously served as chief of surgery at Florida Hospital Waterman in Tavares, said a patient's politics would not affect his care for them, although he said he would prefer not to treat people who support the president.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 06:56 PM

pdq I don't see how any of that affects anything that has been said on this thread except maybe someone, saying "What's to stop him from discriminating for other reasons?" But since he is claiming not to be discriminating now what is to stop him from putting, are a woman, black or homosexual where he says "voted for Obama" and saying exactly the same thing?

Note that his sign said this.

The sign reads: "If you voted for Obama … seek urologic care elsewhere. Changes to your healthcare begin right now, not in four years."

He is certainly turning away all honest people who voted for Obama. Staying in the office for treatment is a defacto way of telling him you DID NOT vote for Obama.

So the statement below is a lie. On the face of it.


"I'm not turning anybody away — that would be unethical," Dr. Jack Cassell,

He is turning people away. One of the people he turned away took a picture of his sign. He is unethical. His only defense is to pretend to be ignorant of the implications of his own sign. Obviously he is unethical. So obviously he is a liar.

Is this a technically a serious enough breach of ethics for him to be punished? I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:26 PM

""That is not the case. The claim that to be against the bill is the be against health care reform is a false dichotomy, a false dilemma, a logical fallacy.""

True Sawzaw, insofar as a significant proportion of opponents are against it because it doesn't deliver enough reform.

However, in the case of the Republicans, your assertion is obviously flawed.

They have had years in government to institute their own reform.

Do you see any Republican suggestion of Change?......of plans for future Change?.......of suggestions that Change might be needed?....EVER?

NO YOU DON'T!.....AND YOU WON'T!

The Republicans like it just the way it is, and they don't give a shit how many die. After all, they're not your kind of people, they're just a bunch of losers, and you don't need 'em, so why would you do "sump'n real stoopid", like caring about your fellow man, and offering a helping hand.

I get kind of sick, just reading your posts and knowing you consider yourself to be a decent human being.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:32 PM

I am not concerned about charity. I am concerned about affordability and coverage. When your job goes to China, you lose coverage. It happens to Republicans too. They, as usual, are voting against their own interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: olddude
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:12 PM

The difference Jack, is they blame Obama for it .... Most of them are the hardest hit yet it is those darn Liberals, I gave up trying to explain it a long time ago for sure

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: kendall
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:16 PM

He has a right to be an asshole. This is America.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: pdq
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:26 PM

And if all the assholes went away, there would be nobody left to drive taxi cabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 09:38 PM

"won't treat Obama voters"

Easy - Lie!

What! - but EVERYBODY does it!

:-O

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 01:58 AM

If he's in a wreck on the highway and needs emergency help himself, I wonder if he would ask his EMTs their voting preferences before allowing treatment?

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 12:31 PM

Good point EJ.

But who can blame him? He thinks that Obama voters are traitors, terrorist, and communists who plotted from the age of three to put Obama in charge so that he could destroy the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: gnu
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 04:58 PM

Supposedly well educated but still an asshole. And, he has more peeps he can treat and charge... wonder why he's against that.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: DougR
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 05:35 PM

A lot of doctors will not accept Medicare patients because the government's pay level is so low. I think we will see a lot more doctors refusing to see Medicare patients now that Obama Care has passed.

The Mayo Clinic here in Phoenix will no longer treat Medicare cancer patients.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 06:41 PM

""The Mayo Clinic here in Phoenix will no longer treat Medicare cancer patients.""

You got a reliable (i.e. not Fox News) source for that Doug, because Mayo Clinic Arizona don't mention anything of the sort on their website.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 06:44 PM

As usual, Douggie- only half true.

1. The Phoenix clinic made the decision to not take any NEW Medicare patients on a two-year trial basis

2. This decision was made long before the Health Care Reform Bill passed.

I know its tough for you, but can you at least TRY not to lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 08:27 PM

"no longer treat Medicare ... patients"

That game was played here in Australia too for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 09:08 PM

There won't be any Obama voters going to that doctor in Florida anyway. He isn't a psychiatrist.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 09:49 PM

So all I have to do is become an Obama supporter to get rid of all my physical ailments, to where all I need is my psychiatrist? Sign me up!

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 01:37 PM

CC:

"Most doctors do support health care reform, Sawzaw"

This indicates that I implied most doctors do NOT support health care reform. Where did I say that?

The problem is you interpret not supporting the health care reform bill as not supporting health care reform.

Then you cite a article that says "Survey respondents were asked to indicate which of three options for expanding health insurance coverage they would most strongly support:"

Jack states: "The article talks about a lot of things that COULD NOT logically be extrapolated from those three questions." It extrapolates and therefore illogically implies the conclusions. The conclusions are in an article about the actual study.

"The New England Journal article DOES NOT say those were the only three questions." No it does not, does that prove they did ask more? Look at the study itself and not at the article about the study.

You claim I am "reading what is not there to make a self serving position"

Jack and CC are reading what is not there to make a self serving position.

Again: "the Republicans" are not against Health care reform. They are against things that are in the health care reform bill.

Again: Most people are for health care reform. They are against things that are in the health care reform bill.

You two and Obama conflate this into meaning anyone who opposes the health care reform bill opposes health care reform.

It is a false Dichotomy to say a vote against the bill is a vote against health care reform.

GWB used the same false dichotomy to support the war in Iraq when he said "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists".

Maybe after 75 or so posts you will discover that I am not against health care reform but that I am opposed to parts of the health care reform bill.

Maybe you will discover that I am not claiming doctors are against health care reform. I am only claiming some doctors are against parts of the health care bill.

Maybe you will discover that anybody that opposes the health care reform bill is not against health care reform.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 08:40 PM

""Again: "the Republicans" are not against Health care reform. They are against things that are in the health care reform bill.""

Another pro Repub comment, and a pretty dumb one.

The Repubs have had ample opportunity to formulate and enact their own health care reforms, several times over.

The fact that they have not done so, knocks the legs out from under your statement. The fact that they are prepared to go to any lengths to prevent anyone else doing so is proof positive that you are completely and utterly wrong.

They are adamantly opposed to any health care reform, at least until they lose their incomes, and need treatment.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 09:07 PM

He's evdiently addled by the thin air on Mount Dora.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 09:34 PM

"It is a false Dichotomy to say a vote against the bill is a vote against health care reform."

It is perfectly true though to say that one is against THAT reform and ask where is the alternative plan that IS proposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 04:43 AM

The republicans' record on health care is no record at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 07:18 AM

Well, that's it...

I'm not going to any work for people who voted for McCain/Palin... And I got a buddy who owns a gas station and I'm goinna talk with him about putting up a sign that reads "No Gas For Repubs"...

But seriously, all this partisanship could be stopped if the Repubs would act like adults here... They have become the Crybaby Party and it's getting just a tad borish... And if they get rewarded for it in Novemeber then, yeah, there can be no doubt that the good ship USA is takin' on water...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: kendall
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 07:50 AM

Poor losers are always a pain in the ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 08:12 AM

Worse than that, Capt'n, is that these current mob of Repubs, inspite of years of pushing the Dems around with the slogan "persoanl responsibilty" now seem clueless about what "personal responsibilty" actually means??? Yeah, the Republican Party should be renamed the "Entitlment Party" because from there behavior (or lack there of) they are righteously indignant that they don't get to run the show...

(But, Boberdz... I thought you renamed them the "Crybaby Party"???)

Is "Crybaby and Entitlment Party" too long???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 11:13 AM

Senator John Kyl:

"Well, let me go back just one step first. Republicans reflected the public will with respect to health care. Every poll showed significant opposition to the health care legislation. By 2-1 the American people said stop it from passing. We tried to do that. But the Democrats were able to jam it through.

On regulatory reform, there is broad support in the public. Even though there's not a good understanding of exactly the kind of complicated regulatory reform that's necessary here, there's an understanding that there are things we need to do. And Republicans believe that just as much as Democrats."

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 11:22 AM

And -- and, Senator, may I ask one more thing? And that is, what are you hearing from Iowans about the new health care reform bill?

Chuck Grassley: Well, I think my letters are running -- and I actually get more e-mails than letters -- but running about similar to what you've seen national polls showing, about 35 percent to 38 percent opposed to it and about, you know, 55 percent to 60 percent against -- now, wait a minute. Yes, I said that right, 35 percent to -- let's say 35 percent to 40 percent opposed to this bill, not opposed to health care reform, to this bill, and then 60 percent, let's say, for -- oh, I said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 11:30 AM

Tuesday, about 20 Tea Party activists gathered near the Capitol to protest Obama's plan. William Robinson of Johnson City said he's not opposed to health care reform that will provide more coverage, but he's concerned about the cost of the plan.

"Who's going to pay for it?" the retired physician asked. "Is our country in the shape right now for more taxes, when we're hurting for jobs? This is the wrong bill ... at the wrong time."

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 02:58 AM

"Who's going to pay for it?"

is what the selfish yell when they really mean

"I'm just pretending I'm a Christian, but I really hate my fellow man and I'm refusing to pay anything to help them."

Of course, they are also too selfish and stupid to realise what happens when the poor gets sick with problems that preventative health care would have reduced the long terms costs that they ARE going to pay for...

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 10:58 PM

From a discussion:

"Statistically speaking, overall, there are more individual republicans that give more to charity year after year than democrats. However, when a Democrat is in charge, they tend to raise taxes in way that will help increase the amount of funds they can give to charity. Which way is better and why?

Although I am a Democrat, I personally believe it is better to do it the way Republicans do it. That way, a individual can research their favorite charities and foundations and give directly to them based on thier own beliefs. Democrats using the forced donation practice is very successful in actually getting more contributions even though the taxpayer might not want to donate (or can't afford to donate) to a specific cause.

It's better for individual citizens to decide if they will donate and what charity they will donate to, because it is their money and not the government's.

For example, I have decided to donate money this year to a charity. I decided this of my own free will and since I'm making the money I intend to donate, that's my right. However, just because I think the cause is worthy doesn't mean I have the right to decide that you will donate to the same cause, because I obviously have no right to dictate what you do with your own money."

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:37 PM

Which helps the most people?

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:14 AM

""Although I am a Democrat, I personally believe it is better to do it the way Republicans do it.""

Then you are not a Democrat, whatever you may call yourself.

"The way Republicans do it.""

You mean look the other way, keep your hand tight on your wallet, and wait for 47 mllion of your countrymen to either die or get better, and not care which?

Then go and donate ten dollars to a local group who'll give shelter to a few bums, and keep them from making your town streets untidy?

Then go home and pat yourself on the back for being a generous feller?

"Yeah! I'm a good, kind, Republican gentleman", you say to yourself, with pride, as you tuck your $2000 company funded dental work into a sixteen ounce steak with all the trimmin's and a bottle of bud, before settling down to watch Nascar on your 50 inch Plasma Sreen.

Yeah! The Republican way is better,...................for the Republicans!....STATUS QUO MAN!, and I don't mean the band.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 10:40 AM

""Republicans reflected the public will with respect to health care. Every poll showed significant opposition to the health care legislation. By 2-1 the American people said stop it from passing. We tried to do that. But the Democrats were able to jam it through.""
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""Although I am a Democrat, I personally believe it is better to do it the way Republicans do it. That way, a individual can research their favorite charities and foundations and give directly to them based on thier own beliefs.""
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Well folks, now we know how much credence to give to posts from Sawzaw, who is obviously a fully paid up member of the well known "Church of the Wholly Undecided".

The only thing he is absolutely sure of is that he is either a Republican or a Democrat, depending on his mood, and the current state of his short term memory.

I hope this will help him to come to terms with his political identity, should he ever find out what it is.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 11:03 AM

Bill Gates' charitable foundation has given away billions of dollars.

(CBS) Imagine if you had more than $21 billion to give away. Who would you give it to? It's not such an easy question. But $21.3 billion is now the value of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. That is more than Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller and Henry Ford ever gave, combined, even when converted into today's dollars.

Most of the biggest American philanthropists are dead and gone without knowing whether their choices were the right ones. Not Bill Gates. As Correspondent Vicki Mabrey reports, he wants to play a big part in deciding where his money will go.In one particular hour, around a conference table at the Gates Foundation's Seattle offices, $330 million dollars worth of grant money was up for grabs.

Bill Gates and his wife Melinda are doing the giving. And when you ask Gates why he's giving away his wealth, he tells you that he's come to understand just how much good his money can do. "The programs we have in place today will save over a million children's lives per year," Gates says. "And it's a number that's almost so large it's hard to relate to, you know. I could say to you, 'We saved a child's life.' And you could say, 'Wow, that's great. You saved that child. Let's go look at that child.'"

To Gates, that justifies giving away millions, even billions of dollars, sometimes in a single grant. "We have an opportunity to change the world, and if we ever forget it, Bill reminds us," says Patty Stonesifer, co-chair of the foundation.

Stonesifer used to make money for Bill Gates as a Microsoft executive. Now she helps him give it away, with the same motivation, she says, that she had in her old job: "We feel like there's that same sense of urgency, that same sense of, 'This is the time for improvement in health around the world.' The science is accelerating at an incredible rate," she says. "And the time is now, when we have an unprecedented level of prosperity to act."

Gates' father, Bill Sr., and Stonesifer run the foundation together, with the help of science experts Dr. Gordon Perkin, a world health expert, and Dr. Bill Foege, a former head of the CDC. Requests for funding from all over the world arrive at the foundation on an average of 300 a month. But only one in 100 will get a "yes."

Says Stonesifer, "We concentrate on global health and on libraries and education here in the U.S. and Canada. That means that many good projects, for building new hospitals, for opening senior centers,...are programs that given our strategic areas, we can't fund right now." It's a tough lesson she's had to learn on the job. When Stonesifer retired from Microsoft - a multimillionaire at age 40 - she planned to spend more time with her teen-age children and sit on some corporate boards, including that of CBS. But at her retirement party, her boss lured her back to a job for which she takes no salary, and for which she had absoluely no experience.

Stonesifer remembers the foundation's somewhat humble beginnings: "We were above a pizza restaurant, and it was myself and an assistant. So it was entry level, except for that we had the opportunity to have a bigger checkbook than most people above the pizza restaurants have." Up above that pizza parlor, the new philanthropists early on focused on an area they were very familiar with: computing. They decided to spend $200 million putting computers into every library in the country. "We've been in libraries that have been located in people's homes, in gas stations, in converted jail cells," says Stonesifer.

Almost every day, new computers arrive in towns like Grand Falls, Texas, population 583, and other places where the "digital divide" is as wide as the Rio Grande. "What we're doing...insures that the child in southern Texas has access to the same encyclopedia (as) the child (who) can reach the main library in New York City," says Stonesifer. It's not just hardware and software. The Gates Foundation provides the training to go with it. Stonesifer calls the staff of more than 100 cyber-savvy road warriors the "Internet Peace Corps." They're halfway to plugging every library into the Internet. Each step of the way they've learned something new. Three years after the library program began, Gates said he was naīve to think computers could solve all the problems; they don't do much for poor people with dying children. So he's tackling global health.

During his most recent vacation, Gates took a crash course on the subject. His beach reading included The Evolution of Infectious Diseases and The Coming Plague. He's translated that research into an enormous investment in world health, spending $50 million toward the effort to wipe polio from the face of the earth. Vaccines are the main focus, but Gates has given billions to programs covering issues from maternal health to AIDS research.

Gates often sends out Stonesifer to investigate firsthand how these programs work. Last March she went to India for a national immunization day as more than 100 million children were vaccinated against polio in makeshift clinics all over the country. The polio vaccine has been available to American children for more than 40 years, but it's only now reaching children in remote places around the world. And this program is a model for distribution of many other vaccines.

"Vaccines are almost magic. They're very inexpensive. They're very effective," says Stonesifer. "(A) sick child can't get an education no matter how good the school is. A sick adult can't hold down a job no matter how good the economy is." A philosophy has emerged over time that guides their choices. They look to attack root causes, not just symptoms. Stonesifer recounts the fable of four women who come upon a river full of drowning babies:

"And the first oman says, 'Oh, my God. We have to save these children.' And she jumps in...and is able to bring one child to shore. And the second woman...sounds the alarm. More people jump in; some more babies are saved." "The third woman stands on the shore and actually starts teaching the children to swim."

"The fourth woman turns and marches upstream...and she says, 'I'm going to go up and find out who's throwing these babies in the river.' And so that's what we go back to in the foundation all the time - that we have the opportunity through our resources to kind of go back upstream and try to see what is it that is causing these babies to be in this river."

It's also important that the grants have a ripple effect. The Gates Millennium Scholars Program, launched last year, made available $1 billion to help minority students pay for college. "These are the kids (who) are going to set the example, and other kids are going to aspire to do what they do," says Gates. "We did that program on a large scale so that we really could effect some change, and get, you know, a lot of kids thinking, 'I can be a role model.'"

The $21 billion endowment earns interest annually, which funds all the grants large and small. The smaller grants go for mostly local causes, like the $50,000 targeted for Seattle's Chicken Soup Brigade, which delivers meals to HIV shut-ins. Stonesifer and Bill Gates Sr. can sign off on these small grants - spending up to a million dollars. Bill Gates and his wife, Melinda, weigh in on the big-ticket items.

Nothing gets by Bill Gates without intense scrutiny, like when there was a decision to be made on a $25 million AIDS grant that seemed to be more about studying the problem than actually intervening to do something about it. "You look through how the dollars are spent,...and they say they're going to measure a lot of stuff," says Bill Gates. "I guess it's not cheap to do that, but it didn't read like an intervention."

In the end, the $25 million grant was approved, just a fraction of the billion dollars Stonesifer says the foundation gives away each year. The richest man in the world plans to give away almost his entire fortune in his lifetime and says that his being in the right place at the right time shouldn't benefit him alone.

He says, "I certainly don't think it's good for a society when you have somebody whose skills just matched what the era required and who built something that got to be super popular, had this big - big positive impact. Those resources should go back to the people in society who haven't been as lucky."

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 11:19 AM

Buffett to Give Bulk of His Fortune to Gates Charity

Bloomberg: Warren E. Buffett, the chairman of Berkshire Hathaway Inc. and one of the world's wealthiest men, plans to donate the bulk of his $44 billion fortune to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and four other philanthropies starting in July.

The donations, outlined in a series of letters that Mr. Buffett released yesterday and will execute today, represent a singular and historic act of charitable giving that vaults him into the top tier of industrialists and entrepreneurs like Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller Sr., Henry Ford, J. Paul Getty, W. K. Kellogg and Mr. Gates himself, all men whose fortunes have endowed some of the world's richest private foundations.

Mr. Buffett plans to give away 85 percent of his fortune, or about $37.4 billion, all in Berkshire stock. Of that amount, he will channel the greatest share, about $31 billion, into the Gates Foundation. The Gates Foundation, dedicated to improving health and education, especially in poor nations, is already the United States' largest grant-making foundation, with current assets of almost $30 billion. Mr. Buffett's huge contribution may permanently solidify that philanthropy's standing as the biggest and most influential organization of its kind. Mr. Buffett will join Mr. and Mrs. Gates as a trustee of their foundation.....

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 07:28 PM

"""We feel like there's that same sense of urgency, that same sense of, 'This is the time for improvement in health around the world.' The science is accelerating at an incredible rate," she says. "And the time is now, when we have an unprecedented level of prosperity to act."""

Everywhere around the world except the USA, where millions of their own people have no proper healthcare at all.

Sounds about on a par with everything else you've put up as an argument for your Republican friends, you silly little Democrat, you.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 07:31 PM

Come to think of it, I might be somewhat (probably not much though) impressed if Billy Boy used a bit of his dosh to make Microsoft products affordable for the less well off.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 11:05 AM

He gives it to people that don't have a computer at all and to people that have no health care at all, proper or improper.

Is that wrong? Is it selfish?

Subject: RE: BS: Florida Doc won't treat Obama voters
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 11:27 AM

Now, if Gates could only make his software WORK, and make it backward-compatible so folks didn't have to invest in all new peripherals every time he releases a new OS.

Also be nice if he cut out beta-testing on his customers.