Unaccompanied Trad Groups

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:03 PM

So? There are still very many solo singers, the groups simply add to the variety, nay even add extra dimensions. They in no way are trying to emulate the singers of the past, they are taking the material to a new dimension and I might add to new audiences, as are those who use instruments and modern technology. If we don't do this we are simply saying the music is nothing but a museum piece. Anyone is entitled to treat the music in this way, but tradition is about evolution, not stagnation.

Personally I'm not in favour of arranged harmonies or choirs singing folk song, but I'm prepared to accept that we wouldn't have the song 'Three Score and Ten' in the folk repertoire if Filey Fisherman's Choir hadn't taken it up. I quite like some of these large shanty groups and I do like some stuff choirs sing but I agree with you it doesn't suit folk song IMO. I personally love harmony singing and I love the unarranged natural harmonies of most of the groups mentioned. The sugar-sweet girly stuff is not my taste but that's just personal preference. I can still appreciate what they are trying to do.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 04:17 PM

It's not the Watersons themselves that I object to - as it happens I recall enjoying their early 'Frost and Fire' recording for Topic very much (not so keen, perhaps, on their later work - matter of taste again). It's the EFFECT that their stuff (and that of some of their contemporaries) seems to have had on many of those who sought to emulate them. In some circles, what is to my ear, a somewhat grotesque parody of these groups is almost de rigeur - and seems to me to have moved the Tradition rather a long way from the singing of such luminaries as Fred Jordan and Walter Pardon!

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 03:59 PM

Shimrod, I might add it was the inspiration of the Watersons' singing that caused me c1965 to record all my family's songs and go out into the East Riding with a tape recorder and record the sort of songs they were singing from the people who could still remember them. I don't ever recall Fred Jordan or Walter Pardon criticising what the Watersons were doing with the songs.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Jim Redfern
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 03:40 PM

Amen to The Claque,Valmai.They are exciting,wild and unusual with off the beaten track songs and harmonies that bend like rainbows and always gold at the end.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 03:36 PM

Ah, Shimrod, perhaps it is a bit shallow to accuse someone you don't know of having no soul on the basis of one statement. If harmony singing, the solitary example given above excepted, was not part of the older tradition there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that it should not be a new tradition brought in from other genres. Actually it was very much part of the town scene in earlier centuries. They used to call the songs they sang glees and they were often shorter (e.g., Coppers' Spring Glee). All of the harmony groups mentioned above bring a great deal of pleasure to a wide number of people, me included. Surely you can't fault, for instance, The Voice Squad?

Here's a little anecdote that might interest you. I have 2 sons in their 30s. At no point in their upbringing did we thrust folk music down their throats. They went through all the usual phases, heavy metal etc., and both have a healthy interest in a wide range of music today. High up amongst their favourite artistes are the Watersons. In fact a very favourite track is 'The Earsdon Calling-on Song', which to some might sound rather dirgy.

I too, as you must know, have steeped myself in traditional song for the last 45 years, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying and appreciating relatively new traditions, or even current music, in fact music from any genre.

You have obviously indulged in this tradition of using pseudonyms, taking a leaf out of the CBer's book no doubt! I do accept that it is an ancient tradition and I have done it myself on occasions.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 03:03 PM

Here's an interesting article in 'Musical Traditions' about the Millen familiy of Kent - scroll down to find it. Like the Coppers, they have a current family tradition of singing in harmony and the article briefly explores its origins. It mentions the Batt Brothers of Kent, too, who also sang in harmony.

I heartily endorse the recommendation of The Claque. Here they are on YouTube at Cheltenham Folk Festival 2009. The sound is not very good quality, but it gives an idea of their distinctive style.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:41 PM

I must say that I'm rather dismayed that YOU believe that I "have no soul", Mr Gardham! As an admirer of your scholarship I'm a bit nonplussed!

Bearing in mind that I've been careful not to mention any names, it's surely all a matter of taste(?) As someone who has steeped himself in English Traditional song, for at least 40 years, I happen to think that the tradition is mainly a solo one, in which words and melody are paramount. In my opinion it doesn't lend itself well to a group treatment - especially one involving harmonies - which, to my ear at least,tend to 'fill in' all the delightful twists, turns and intervals in the melodies. All my favourite performances over the years have been solo ones.

Again, in my opinion, the 'folk choirs' have introduced some supremely irritating affectations and mannerisms into the Revival - i.e. dirgey choruses, 'hearty' bellowing etc. If I have to sit through another endless, dirgey chorus with lots of pra ... sorry, people, 'harmonising', I swear I'll stand up and scream at the top of my voice - AAAAARRRGH!!!! - and, perhaps, even run amok with a machete (probably not, though, as I'm not given to impromptu acts of violence).

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Tootler
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:33 PM

Take no notice of Shimrod. He regularly complains about people harmonising in choruses and also about people joining in with the refrains in ballads. In fact I get the distinct impression he doesn't really like people joining in at all when he is singing.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:03 PM

Shimrod
You have no soul IMHO! The Watersons have been at the top of the tree for nigh on 50 years and deservedly so. Are English Tapestry's contrived harmonies more your taste?

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Surreysinger
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 01:05 PM

Guest Erich - Sadly I think the Witches disbanded some while ago. Shimrod - dirgey CBS and the Wilsons certainly ain't!

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 01:00 PM

'Guest Erich',

'No names, no pack drill' as they say.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Erich
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 10:58 AM

Another "girlie group"
The Witches of Elswick - wow.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 10:38 AM

I'd never heard of Hex but I listened to ' White Cockade ' from them, very very good.

Ah, Craig Morgan Robson, say no more, I've been in love with Carolyn Robson since I first heard her on a Kathryn Tickell CD.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Nick
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 10:37 AM

Do Hissyfit and Two Black Sheep and a Stallion count?

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Erich
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 10:12 AM

@ Shimrod:

talking about Young Tradition, Watersons, Folly Bridge, Songwainers, etc. ????

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 09:11 AM

God save me from 'Unaccompanied Trad Groups'! In my opinion a few 'Unaccompanied Trad Groups' ('folk choirs') from the 60s and 70s have a lot to answer for. Dirgey harmonising and sickeningly hearty, unmelodic bellowing spring to mind.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: tijuanatime
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 09:08 AM

Notts Alliace and Craig Morgan Robson .

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Liz
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:47 AM

I agree with Dave, the Wilsons were the best thing we saw in 2009

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Erich
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:31 AM

Yes , Hex of course, and Pennyroyl, Ninepenny Marl. Just visit UK-folkfestivals and avoid the main stages.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:10 AM

...oh, and of course our local outfit "GU4"!

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:09 AM

The "Young-uns" would seem to fit the bill aptly here.

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: tijuanatime
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 05:42 AM

Hex

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,oldnickilby
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 05:34 AM

There are lots of us singing in this manner, its just that we dont have pushy agents and most of us like singing for the sheer pleasure it gives, not the cash.
We have our own "Second Saturday"sing that regularly gets in excess of 20 singers (sorry invitation only as it is at our home)

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 05:34 AM

Ever heard of The Wilson Family and The Copper Family ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,PhilB
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 04:50 AM

The Claque

www.wildgoose.co.uk

Subject: Unaccompanied Trad Groups
From: GUEST,Pat Coburn
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 04:40 AM

What has happened to this genre?There just don't seem to be any to challenge CBS and this isn't healthy.Any recommendations?