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BS: Petrol Prices UK

The Smiler 08 Apr 10 - 12:49 PM
gnu 08 Apr 10 - 01:35 PM
Mrs.Duck 08 Apr 10 - 02:01 PM
Herga Kitty 08 Apr 10 - 02:10 PM
John MacKenzie 08 Apr 10 - 02:44 PM
pdq 08 Apr 10 - 02:46 PM
gnu 08 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Apr 10 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 08 Apr 10 - 06:05 PM
Royston 08 Apr 10 - 06:07 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Apr 10 - 03:07 AM
The Barden of England 09 Apr 10 - 03:20 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Apr 10 - 05:15 AM
Tangledwood 09 Apr 10 - 05:59 AM
The Barden of England 09 Apr 10 - 06:55 AM
Ed T 09 Apr 10 - 08:40 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Apr 10 - 09:33 AM
Mrs.Duck 09 Apr 10 - 10:09 AM
Anne Lister 09 Apr 10 - 11:32 AM
Royston 09 Apr 10 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Bob L 09 Apr 10 - 05:51 PM
Anne Lister 09 Apr 10 - 06:13 PM
Backwoodsman 10 Apr 10 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,padgett 10 Apr 10 - 04:42 AM
Leadfingers 10 Apr 10 - 06:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Apr 10 - 09:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Apr 10 - 03:38 PM
gnu 10 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM
pdq 10 Apr 10 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 10 Apr 10 - 06:05 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Apr 10 - 07:08 PM
Royston 11 Apr 10 - 04:27 AM
banjoman 11 Apr 10 - 06:13 AM
Royston 11 Apr 10 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Apr 10 - 09:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Apr 10 - 05:49 PM
Alan Day 12 Apr 10 - 06:05 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Apr 10 - 07:40 AM
Royston 12 Apr 10 - 09:00 AM
Royston 12 Apr 10 - 09:04 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Apr 10 - 09:58 AM
John MacKenzie 12 Apr 10 - 10:54 AM
Royston 12 Apr 10 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 12 Apr 10 - 11:40 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Apr 10 - 08:13 PM
MGM·Lion 12 Apr 10 - 10:40 PM
Royston 13 Apr 10 - 03:44 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Apr 10 - 04:02 AM
Royston 13 Apr 10 - 04:17 AM
Nigel Parsons 13 Apr 10 - 04:23 AM
Royston 13 Apr 10 - 04:40 AM
banjoman 13 Apr 10 - 05:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Apr 10 - 05:42 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Apr 10 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 13 Apr 10 - 05:53 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Apr 10 - 06:40 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Apr 10 - 06:50 AM
Royston 13 Apr 10 - 08:47 AM
MBSGeorge 13 Apr 10 - 08:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Apr 10 - 09:28 AM
Royston 13 Apr 10 - 02:19 PM
Royston 13 Apr 10 - 02:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Apr 10 - 06:58 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Apr 10 - 11:55 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Apr 10 - 01:19 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Apr 10 - 02:00 AM
The Smiler 14 Apr 10 - 04:13 AM
The Smiler 14 Apr 10 - 05:38 AM
romanyman 14 Apr 10 - 01:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Apr 10 - 04:50 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Apr 10 - 04:59 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Apr 10 - 05:09 PM
The Smiler 14 Apr 10 - 05:16 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Apr 10 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Apr 10 - 06:25 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Apr 10 - 03:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Apr 10 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Apr 10 - 07:40 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Apr 10 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Apr 10 - 09:02 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Apr 10 - 09:57 AM
MBSGeorge 15 Apr 10 - 07:09 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Apr 10 - 07:14 PM
Backwoodsman 16 Apr 10 - 03:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Apr 10 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Apr 10 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 17 Apr 10 - 04:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Apr 10 - 04:57 AM
bubblyrat 17 Apr 10 - 02:23 PM
romanyman 17 Apr 10 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Apr 10 - 03:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 10 - 07:28 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Apr 10 - 09:33 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Apr 10 - 10:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 10 - 11:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Apr 10 - 12:12 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Apr 10 - 12:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 10 - 01:00 PM
bubblyrat 18 Apr 10 - 02:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 10 - 05:21 PM

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Subject: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: The Smiler
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 12:49 PM

Blimey. I went into my local Tesco Station and filled up. Around Christmas time it cost me about £50 to fill up.
What the hell are people on about. What cost of living rises. Everything is so rosy.
£62.90 it cost me. I could have fallen over.
I think that represents about 25% increase in about 4 months.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: gnu
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 01:35 PM

Well... it's comin on summer... hold onto yer hat on accounta it's gonna keep goin up. Especially with the troop and equipment increases in Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 02:01 PM

Prices round here vary between 116p and 120p a litre. My drive to work is around 50 mile round trip so getting to be an expensive business!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 02:10 PM

The UK average price for a litre of unleaded has today hit a new record of 119.9p a litre (higher than it reached in 2008).

Kitty


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 02:44 PM

Over £1.30 up here. Where of course, there is very liitle public transport, and a car is a necessity


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: pdq
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 02:46 PM

About 80% of the pump price of gasoline in the UK is taxes.

The government-media complex controls what you think and do.

You are told that you are destroying the planet by driving a car and producing CO2, and this justifies punitive tax rates.

Same for cigarettes. Bad so they must be subject to a punitive tax.

A 39¢ pack of cigarettes now cost $7.50 and a 99¢ gallon of gas is now $3.10 in the US.

Still a bargain compared to Scotland and the Netherlands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: gnu
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM

Bullets, helicopters, tanks and the like are expensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 05:34 PM

"You are told that you are destroying the planet by driving a car and producing CO2, and this justifies punitive tax rates.

Same for cigarettes. Bad so they must be subject to a punitive tax.


Makes sense to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 06:05 PM

I wonder if this will lead to less cars on the road? Probably not - silly me!

The other day I happened to be walking through a leafy, suburban area, that I hadn't visited for some years. It used to be quiet and peaceful but, on this most recent occasion (at about 2:30pm on a Wednesday afternoon), a car went past me every second or two - and at a junction with a main road there was a queue waiting to exit on to it.

Just a generation or so ago there was one car per family (or, in the case of my family, zero cars). Now even the family cat and dog have a car (and I'm sure that, just yesterday, I spotted a hamster taking its driving test!).

We've built our whole civilisation around the internal combustion engine (a very stupid and short-sighted thing to do) and now the foundations of the whole flimsy edifice are beginning to be undermined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 06:07 PM

I agree with McG and I am an ex-smoker and a current driver. We need to drive as few miles as we can in the smallest and most efficient cars we can find.

There might be some justice and fairness when US gasoline reaches 10 bucks a gallon and people stop going to war to keep some of those stupid childish toys on the road.

It needn't be about CO2, it's about the deadly politics of oil. Or imagne a world where the Americans have burned all the oil in hummers so we've no plastics or hydrocarbon-derived pharmaceuticals or other oil products.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 03:07 AM

"a 99¢ gallon of gas is now $3.10 in the US"

Stop whining. It's £6 in the UK - that's over $9 a gallon. You lot over there don't know you're born! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: The Barden of England
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 03:20 AM

The strange thing is the following from the AA statistics at the end of March show that "The UK has the twelfth highest unleaded price in Europe and the second highest diesel price.". Why should diesel be that way??
John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:15 AM

Aye, you're all to holier than thou down in the suburbs, and the home counties, where transport is plentiful.
What about the thousands of people who have no access to public transport, and for whom the nearest supermarkt is at least 50 miles away, or more? They can't get Tesco to deliver you know!
For a site which covers the world like Mudcat does, it's contributors can be intensely parochial at times.
The highlands of Scotland, in common with many other remote regions in the UK, is not just a pretty place for tourists to visit. It is also home to thousands of people who have to make a living, and who do all the things that other people in the UK do.
They just have to travel further, and pay more, in order to do so!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Tangledwood
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:59 AM

Last time I visited UK, a couple of years ago, fuel prices were a hot topic too. Driving a hired car in an unfamiliar country I meticulously obeyed the speed limit on the motorways and got left in the wake of almost every other vehicle. Want to reduce your fuel costs? Slow down!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: The Barden of England
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 06:55 AM

I understand your plight John - not good I do agree.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 08:40 AM

I believe the price of a barrel of oil has gone up quite a bit over the past year. If the relative value of the currency of a country has fallen (this possibly happened in the UK), it could also contribute to higher gas prices (oil has been tagged to US dollars). Since Canada is a major oil exporter (it's mostly from Alberta and Newfoundland), when the price oil goes up, it frequently stimulates a rise in the value of the dollar. This cushons some of impact of a oil rise...but not a total shield from an oil price rise. There are also seasonal factors (refining and supply and demand) often cited for rises.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 09:33 AM

"Want to reduce your fuel costs? Slow down!"

Want to reduce your fuel costs (US)? Stop driving around in ridiculous, gas-guzzling, hugely-over-powered and oversized vehicles! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 10:09 AM

I don't have the option to use public transport to work as the buses and trains don't go there. To get to my workplace would entail at least two train changes and three buses and probably take around three hours allowing for connections and even then I would onl just make it before the students. So I drive the 25 miles there and back which used to cost me about £25 but now is almost £10 more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Anne Lister
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:32 AM

Where we live in South Wales we need two cars as our journeys to work would be totally impossible on the public transport currently available. There's one bus up our way, which runs between 10 am and 4 pm. I could walk the mile down a steep hill to catch a bus from the town centre but those buses take me to other town centres and my work doesn't ever tend to be in town centres. And I'd have to walk the mile up the steep hill at the end of the day which isn't easy with asthma (and, possibly, shopping). My husband did the public transport thing in the snow ... two miles to walk to the nearest station, catch a train to Cardiff, catch another train to Ystrad Mynach and then walk two miles or more to work. Not really practical on a daily basis.
So I get rather tired when politicians and other well-meaning folk who live in cities with integrated public transport tell us to use our cars less. When I lived in London, I used buses and tubes most of the time - if only I could do that now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 02:43 PM

Well I don't believe I said don't drive, I believe I said drive the least number of miles in the most efficient vehicle available. The next few years will see a growing range of very credible zero emission vehicles. Hybrids, driven as their makers intended and not abused by Jeremy Clarkson to prove a fake point are helpful and well established. Fuel taxes msut be used to improve public transport availability and utility. It's easy to keep finding ten reasons for doing nothing, something constructive is needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Bob L
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:51 PM

>>>I drive the 25 miles there and back which used to cost me about £25 but now is almost £10 more.<<<

Mrs. Duck, whatever are you driving, a Hummer? At £1.20 per litre for fuel, and allowing the same again for overheads (which I believe is the AA recommended, and therefore normal, allowance), that works out at 7.8 miles to the gallon. Or do your costs have to cover ridiculous parking fees?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Anne Lister
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 06:13 PM

Royston, it's not what's on this thread that has bugged me, it's listening to politicians and others going on about how the cost of fuel will encourage us all to think again about using our cars. As if we all had a choice about it. And I'd love to get a more fuel-efficient vehicle, if only I could afford one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:58 AM

I sympathise, Anne. You've been to our part of the Backwoods - public transport is virtually non-existent and what there is seems designed simply to take everyone to/from Lincoln. Bad news if you want to go somewhere else. So a car is essential.

We used to have a rail network till some Tory tit-head decided it was a good idea to destroy it (a bit like the way another Tory tit-head decided it was a good idea to destroy our mining industry and manufacturing base, and we're now held to ransom by Eastern Europe and the Far East).


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:42 AM

It does look as tho government has lost the plot and every year Petrol and Alcohol taxes go up

A guy once confronted Gordon Brown on this issue, he simply laughed him in his face

I was and still am incensed by this sort of behaviour

However, t'would by no different under the Conservatives

Many initiatives have been suggested including direct action by "truckers" on motorways

It is no wonder ppl wont vote, no one can make their feelings felt, and the elected continue to do exactly as they please and take action under the "Rule of Law" ~ where it seems police fearful of physical assault from unarmed protestors can be repelled by hitting unarmed females as a deterent

I am sorry but society is infor some bad times again, particularly if Union bashing Conservatives are elected!! back to Thatcher era, god help us

Ray


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 06:58 AM

But EVERYONE should vote any way - If only to stop the Extremist Parties getting a toe hold !


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 09:17 AM

""We've built our whole civilisation around the internal combustion engine (a very stupid and short-sighted thing to do) and now the foundations of the whole flimsy edifice are beginning to be undermined.""

Some of us live in rural areas because we can't afford to live in the Cities, and for us the car is not a lifestyle choice.

With lousy public transport, a car is a dire necessity.

For those of working age there is simply no choice, and for pensioners without a car getting about is virtually impossible.

On bus services in Kent, fares are as much as £3.50 for a six mile trip, and that trip, on a bus which goes all round the villages, takes 56 minutes.

The same trip by car will get up to five people to journey's end in 15 minutes, at a cost of approximately £1.00. That's 15 pence each.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:38 PM

How did people manage before we had cars?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: gnu
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM

Less well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: pdq
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 05:16 PM

Prosperity is wasteful.

No waste, no prosperity.

Low gas prices mean people shop more, go to restaurants more, vacation more, spend more money on entertaimnement, etc.

At $10/gal.(US) people would stay home and gripe. What fun, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 06:05 PM

"Some of us live in rural areas because we can't afford to live in the Cities, and for us the car is not a lifestyle choice."

Is it really cheaper to live in a rural area, Don? In Manchester, where I live, houses are expensive (unless you want to live in the grottier parts) - but in rural Cheshire, and some parts of rural Lancashire, house prices are astronomical! As I see it, in the last two or three decades, wealthier people have moved out of the cities to live in the countryside and, incidentally, forced up house prices there. They have only been able to do that because of the motor car. Now, with fuel prices going through the roof, they could be in serious trouble. I take no pleasure in this situation (perhaps if I'd been fortunate to be rich I might have moved to the countryside as well). But I'm sort of glad that I live in a city where shops and other services (like public transport) are readily available and close to hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 07:08 PM

Around every big town or city there are areas where the city folk live, and from which they commute to the city to work. Those ares tend to be very pricey.

There are also areas which the City folk leave alone, and which are therefore quite inexpensive to live in. In case you are wondering why the City folk ignore them, it's because they have little public transport, and what there is will not serve anyone who has to go to work early, or at a considerable distance.

Also, of course there are fewer jobs available, so it is necessary to travel, and what transport there is does not cover any cross country journey, only up to the City and back again. My last job was in Sevenoaks, just fifteen miles from my home, across country. To get to work at nine, I had to leave home at 6.40am, take three buses, or two trains, then walk a mile and a half (and Sevenoaks is mostly at a thirty degree angle from the horizontal).

Fares for this £12.50 return by train, or £16.00 bus fare in, with my pensioners pass covering the return. Non pensioners would have to pay a total of £12.00 to get home.

Before you try to tell me I know nothing about the comparative costs, let me say that I lived in London for the first thirty years of my life, and at the time I moved down to Kent my mortgage for a three bedroom house cost virtually the same amount as I was paying in rates in London. The London rent was double that amount.

So I'm in that place, and I an't do much but merely exist, unless I use a car. My car is off the road now, having been damaged by some halfwit in a carpark, and my attendance at folk clubs is reduced to daytime sessions, or evenings when I can cadge a lift.

The only holiday I can afford, since Gordon Brown mugged me for two thirds of my pension, is in a caravan, which actually suits me fine, but you try dragging one of those down to Sidmouth without a car.

When you City folk talk about using public transport it makes me laugh. You are lucky Shimrod! You have the option!

And, BTW, I live just thirty five miles from London.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 04:27 AM

So it sounds like most of would agree with the idea (that floated agains last week) of shifting the tax on fuel to a GPS-based system of road pricing.

Rural roads taxed at, I don't know, 2p a mile; while urban roads & m/ways ta quid a mile in rush hour, less at other times. Your personal, per mile tax-rate adjusted up or down depending on the CO2 output of the car you choose to use.

Fair, n'est-ce pas?

Or do we get another ten reasons for saying no and doing nothing?

How do we stop burning so much fuel in transportation? And why does everyone seem to regard themselves as deserving of a special exemption from any and all responsibility?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: banjoman
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 06:13 AM

Spare a thought for us disabled drivers who have no choice other than to use a car. Yes I get a mobility allowance but that goes to keep the car on the road. I would willingly use public transport if there was a bus available where I live and it would stop outside my door.
I feel that motorists are a soft touch so far as taxation is concerened as its unlikely that many will stop driving. If they did, then the government would simply find another soft touch to tax


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:25 AM

It is in no way insensitive to your predicament, Banjoman, to ask whether or not you have any suggestions about what might be done?

Very many, most, disabled drivers can access mobility grants that can provide a fully funded vehicle leaving the driver just to fuel it. Drivers can choose fuel efficient, hybrid or fully electric vehicles. A road pricing scheme could protect disabled drivers by limiting their tax exposure or exempting them completely.

Solutions. Not more problems and nay-saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 09:24 AM

Don, I sympathise with you, I really do!

I should tell you, though, that when I was working I lived in South Manchester and worked in Stockport. Home to work by car was a 20 minute drive. In 1998 I developed epilepsy and had to surrender my driving licence until my condition could be brought under control (I was off the road for 16 months all told - I won't bore you with the details). I then had to get to work by bus. This involved two buses and took an hour on a good day and two hours on a bad day (which were quite frequent). Getting home was even worse because sometimes buses were often very late. Greater Manchester buses were privatised under the Thatcher government so that only the most profitable routes are now reliable.

But our society's utter dependence on the car have led to both of us having to endure these frustrations and reductions in our qualities of life. There are lots of other disadvantages as well, of course, the concreting over of the countryside and the severe reductions in rural services being but two (commuters and countryside 'colonisers', of course, tend not to use rural services).


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:49 PM

The motorist has been government's favourite cash cow since as far back as I can remember, and it's past time that they found somebody else to foot the bills.

I would be broadly in favour of a graduated road pricing system, but it would have to replace the plethora of taxes already levied on car owners.

If it were not for private car owners there would be no road system for public transport to run on without a massive hike in income tax.

When you start to tot up all the individual taxes, it is quite astonishing.

1. You buy a car, and several thousand pounds of the price you pay go straight to the treasury.
2. You pay for a licence to keep the car and use it on the road, a couple of hundred extra pounds.
3. You fill the tank, and about eighty percent is tax.

A gallon of petrol is estimated to cost about 30p to produce. Add in say 15% profit for the refinery, 15% profit for the distributor, and another 15% for the retailer, gives a realistic 48p per gallon at the pump. The current UK price is approximately £5.40per gallon. The difference is made up of fuel tax, and then VAT on the total. They levy tax upon a tax, and how the hell is that right and fair, and where does that happen, other than to motorists.

Going back to the Road Fund Licence fee, which was brought in initially on the pretext of covering the cost of roads, it is true to say that the fees collected in one year cover the total capital cost of road building and maintenance for several years, and the rest disappears into the treasury black hole.

If all those taxes were discontinued, and a system of graduated road pricing adopted, it would be fairer among motorists, but the pricing would have to be set by a committee independent of government.

Experience tells us that government always overcharges (ask them where the rest of the Road Fund Licence money goes).

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Alan Day
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 06:05 AM

I wonder if long term it is going to effect events such as sport, festivals etc.
This knocks on to caterers, artists, pubs (already under threat).
Al


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 07:40 AM

The Telegraph today has David Cameron promising some action on petrol prices Telegraph

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 09:00 AM

"The Telegraph today has David Cameron promising some action on petrol prices"

What a sack of shit. Take 10p tax off a litre of petrol.

Where/how are they going to fund that and make an impact on our deficit?

Obvious - move the tax back onto wholesale oil prices. And that would have what effect on petrochemical product prices like, errm, petrol? Or heating oil? or the diesel that delivers groceries to the supermarket shelves?

Any resident rocket scientists want to have a go at answering that.

Surely nobody would actually vote for a party so utterly stupid as to have made that "pledge", would they? Really?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 09:04 AM

Oh, the first two lines of that news non-story:

David Cameron will propose temporarily cutting fuel duty to protect motorists from the impact of rising oil prices.

The move will be funded from the increased taxes the Government raises from other levies on oil companies when wholesale prices rise.


I hadn't noticed at first that this stupid mumbling was only a "temporary" musing. Probably it will last no longer than 7 May if they get elected, which of course they won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 09:58 AM

What a sack of shit. Take 10p tax off a litre of petrol.

I love a well reasoned argument!
When the price of petrol was last rising, it was made clear that the government was gaining massive, unplanned for, income. The increase in price increases Corporation Tax & VAT take by the government. The fuel duty is the only 'fixed cost' in the price of petrol at the pumps.
If David Cameron states that this can be reduced (when the price of fuel is high) then I will accept that.

Probably it will last no longer than 7 May if they get elected, which of course they won't.
By 7th May they would not yet be in Government, so it could not be introduced in time to end then.
Do you think before posting?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:54 AM

ANY tax which its the waged and the unwaged equally, is by it's very nature unfair.
The only fair taxes sre based on income.
Raise the tax threshold, and then raise income tax.
I have no idea how many people there are in the UK work force, but at a guess, 1p in the pound increase on income tax, would raise many millions of pounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:15 AM

Yes, Nigel, I think.

I could rip into that absurd idea all day long.

How does that idea work in a time - like, errm, now! - when wholesale oil prices are falling. So the tax yield from the petrochemical sector is also falling? Hmm?

How will it work as we approach peak-oil, and the tax yield from the petrochemical sector falls as the cost of exploration and extraction hits profits and governments are forced to ration supplies and control the price of crude?

Doing anything other than learning to pay the real price of hydrocarbon energy - and finding alternatives to it - is quite stupid and dangerous. But that's the tories all over - quite stupid and dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 11:40 AM

"Probably it will last no longer than 7 May if they [the Tories] get elected, which of course they won't."

I have a horrible feeling that they [the Tories] WILL get elected - but that's the British electorate all over -"quite stupid and dangerous".


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 08:13 PM

May I suggest that, if they do get in, you suspend your hostility until they actually give you reason.

That's what I did when New Labour won in 97, and I got sweet fuck all of what they promised. They got back again at the following election. Still fuck all, except a prime minister who nobody elected.

Of course this will inevitably fall on deaf ears.

Don T. (maybe not so stupid, or dangerous)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:40 PM

Shimrod ~~ Be a bit realistic: do you really want another 5 years of the present pathetic mob? & if not, what genuine alternative can you see to letting Cameron et al have a try? It's no good being like the famous yokel asked the way somewhere who replied "You can't start from here." Here, I am afraid, is the only place you can start from.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:44 AM

I prefer the yokel, Michael, to the fool with a bladder on a stick prepared to vote for the newest, shiniest crock of shit on the basis "What's the worst that could happen: It could be a bit of a laugh"


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:02 AM


I could rip into that absurd idea all day long.

How does that idea work in a time - like, errm, now! - when wholesale oil prices are falling. So the tax yield from the petrochemical sector is also falling? Hmm?

Yes, I'm sure you could 'rip into the idea', but I suggested 'reasoned argument'.
Your comment about falling oil prices was fully covered in the write up, which you clearly responded to without reading/understanding.
David Cameron will propose temporarily cutting fuel duty to protect motorists from the impact of rising oil prices.
The move will be funded from the increased taxes the Government raises from other levies on oil companies when wholesale prices rise.

However, it is likely to prove controversial when oil prices fall as fuel duty will rise again.
The details of the scheme – including the price at which petrol will "stabilise" – will be the subject of a consultation launched soon after a Conservative election victory. It is expected to be launched within months if Mr Cameron is successful.

Last night, a senior Conservative source said: "We are very straight with people. This is not a tax giveaway – instead it is a sensible, balanced policy that protects families from big increases in the oil price.

"When the oil price rockets, the tax falls and the petrol price at the pump stays stable – and vice-versa when the oil price falls."


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:17 AM

I don't need to waste my time reading in full a proposal that is destined to be absurd from its initial premise. I am glad that the Tories acknowledge how silly their own idea is.

In the long run the proposal cannot work because the revenue taxes are paid on oil-co profits, which will diminish.

It ignores the fact that people must not be "protected" from the rising price of energy. They must be totally exposed to it. The government should not be mitigating hydrocarbon taxes, they should be raking it in and investing hugely in giving us alternatives to burning hydrocarbons in private motor vehicles.

The proposal is, on any level, dangerous and stupid. The Tories are dangerous and stupid. Labour aren't very much better. At least they pretend to understand the issues around energy supply and consumption.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:23 AM

I don't need to waste my time reading in full a proposal that is destined to be absurd from its initial premise
This takes ignorance to a new level, you are prepared to 'rip into' a proposal you admit you haven't read.
It ignores the fact that people must not be "protected" from the rising price of energy. They must be totally exposed to it
It makes it clear that the intention is not protection against rising prices, but against the rapid fluctuations seen in the fuel market.

That's it from me for now on this subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 04:40 AM

"It makes it clear that the intention is not protection against rising prices, but against the rapid fluctuations seen in the fuel market

Sorry, Nigel, if you're going to be so keen on reading then you might take up the fight for comprehension also.

The premise of the proposal IS protecting people from rising prices. It is a proposal for a fuel-price stabiliser. That is it say it is a propsosal for capping the price paid by consumers at the petrol pumps.

It cannot work. It is silly. The very premise is silly. I have given the reasons why I think it is silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: banjoman
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:09 AM

Royston - yes I do drive a car provided by Motability but that requires my full mobility allowance to fund it. The point I was making was that all motorists are a soft touch and disabled drivers are just as much taxed when it comes to fuel. The current price situation means that I can afford to get out less and less and sometimes feel almost housebound as my meagre income just about covers household costs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:42 AM

I don't have your mobility problems, Banjoman, but I do share your difficulties, in that I am becoming increasingly confined to my home as prices rise faster than pension income.

It's about time that somebody did something to alleviate the feeling of being marginalised, and almost under house arrest.

Instead, we get idiots telling us that for the good of the world we should give up any concern for our quality of life.

Perhaps they'd prefer that we just die, so there'll be more oxygen left for them.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:49 AM

Unlike some here, I don't profess to know all the answers when it comes to deciding on our future.

But one thing I do know.

The answer won't be found by sticking with our current unelected Clown and his band of merrie failures.

They've done fuck all but bankrupt the country in thirteen years, and I say hand the reins back to those who left Blare and Bean all the money which they frittered away without thought for the future.

Fiscally Prudent?.........My Arse!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 05:53 AM

Don W and MtheGM,

I don't believe that the Tories get in, over and over again, for any particularly rational reason. They get in because many people's politics don't extend much beyond: "People of a lower social status than me are 'getting more' than I think they're entitled to and the (right wing, hence authoritarian) Tories will punish them for it". Their 'thinking' of course doesn't extend any further than that (i.e. if the Tories punish the 'unworthy', what happens then?). I heard some woman expound this 'philosophy' on the radio this morning and the Tory candidate in her area say: "I hear this over again on the dorstep" (presumably along with the equally moronic, "I don't vote").

I don't have any time for New Labour either. They have also proved to be authoritarian and controlling with a hypocritical 'caring' gloss.

I'm voting Lib Dem - mainly because they have done more for my local area and community than the other parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:40 AM

"Still fuck all, except a prime minister who nobody elected"

We-e-e-e-ll, sorry Don, he was elected. Elected as an MP by his constituency, and elected as leader of the party-in-government by their party election process. He underwent the full election process necessary to become Prime Minister, and his occupancy of that position is perfectly legitimate. Whether he's the right person for the job is open to debate, but his position as Prime Minister is unquestionably legitimate.

If we follow your logic, Tony Blair wasn't elected, Sir Winston Churchill wasn't elected, Lloyd George wasn't elected, even your heroine, The Thatcher Bitch, wasn't elected. It's not a presidential system here, the general public don't get to elect a Prime Minister - ever - just their own constituency MP. The Prime Minister is elected within his/her own party, so get over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:50 AM

Sorry Don, didn't mean that to sound like a personal attack on you - I just get pissed off with hearing a great many people, who clearly don't ubnderstand how the UK electoral system works, saying that they're voting for Brown, Cameron, Clegg, whoever, when they're doing no such thing - they can only vote for the candidates standing in their constituency.

I understand what they mean, but what they say is just plain and simple bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:47 AM

But Don, Banjoman, would you agree then that the labour idea for road pricing is an answer of sorts? It treats individuals on their individual circumstances, on where they happen to live and on where / when they drive. Take the tax off fuel and put it on those individual factors.

My frustration about any discussion an tax and persoanl responsibility is that we always seem to get stuck with ten reasons for doing nothing. What should we do? Positive suggestions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:54 AM

People in the government don't think. If you are unemployed you are expected to look for work outside the local area which generally means needing transport of some description. For those with children they have limited time frames to get from A to B and public transport is not regular enough for that so they have a car. It is now becoming a struggle to keep running a car for those who are already living on extremely limited resources.

I watched the petrol price rise from 1.04 to 1.14 in the space of 7 days, it is now 1.19.

I have just had to sell my van to buy a car that is cheaper to run and still struggle to afford the fuel to put in it!! No more visits to weekend festivals for me as I now have nowhere to sleep if I go.

Governments don't understand what it is like to live on sandwiches and beans on toast because it's all I can afford most of the time.

G


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 09:28 AM

Maybe once you get elected you can do something about it Georgina? I will not be here to see it, not being fully British, of course...


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:19 PM

"I have just had to sell my van to buy a car that is cheaper to run and still struggle to afford the fuel to put in it!! No more visits to weekend festivals for me as I now have nowhere to sleep if I go.

Governments don't understand what it is like to live on sandwiches and beans on toast because it's all I can afford most of the time."


Sorry George, we just can't read that stuff without putting it in the context of your political allegiances.

So, life hasn't thrown riches at your door.

Do you think you are alone?

Why does the state owe you a camper-van? Or weekend folk-festivals?

Why don't you sleep in a tent? Or in your new car?

Moreover, why should your asian/polish/romanian/african/gay (delete as appropriate) fellow citizens be crucified and pilloriedm driven out or even exterminated because your life wasn't straight off a biscuit tin?

Critically, when Dick Griffin and the white-african immigrant child-murderers that he thinks are a good sort of immigrant, have attacked and ruined your asian/polish/romanian/african/gay (delete as appropriate) fellow citizens, what exactly do you seriously imagine they will do - or should do - for you?

I would have every sympathy for you if you would just "get it" - that everyone is potentially deserving rather than you just being some sort of especially entitled case for support to the detriment of others that you regard as less worthy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Royston
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 02:22 PM

George, if you weren't a BNP supporter, I would give you a tent and give you a lift to/from folk festivals. I would share my beer and food with you. That's what friends do for each other. That's what society and community is all about.

You crossed the line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 06:58 PM

""If we follow your logic, Tony Blair wasn't elected, Sir Winston Churchill wasn't elected, Lloyd George wasn't elected, even your heroine, The Thatcher Bitch, wasn't elected. It's not a presidential system here, the general public don't get to elect a Prime Minister - ever - just their own constituency MP.""

Fallacious reasoning. All the others you mention were leading their parties when those parties got into government, so they were in that sense elected by popular vote, because general elections are rarely about constituency issues, they are party based, and that includes party leader support.

Brown was not, and what is more, he knew he wasn't the choice of the populace, which is why he funked the election he could have called with a reasonable chance of winning.

The people have not had the chance to vote on Brown's position, but in just over three weeks they will.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:55 PM

Oil has been staying between $80-85/bbl the past couple of weeks, a nice balance that keeps investors happy and is not too high to worry industry.
High taxes push the cost way up, as noted above.
Americans do a lot of hollerin', but their cost is about 50-60% of what most Europeans pay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:19 AM

Don, not 'fallacious reasoning' at all, but a statement of fact about the UK electoral system. See, you're doing it again - trying to draw a parallel between our electoral system and a presidential system such as they have in the USA.

Whether you, or anyone else, thinks they're electing a Prime Minister is irrelevant. Fact - nowhere on your voting slip is there a space to put a cross against the name of the person you want to be prime minister. We don't elect a Prime Minister, we elect a party to form a government, by a system of electing constituency MPs and, generally speaking, the party who capture most seats form a Government and, generally speaking their leader, elected by party-menbers only, not the general voting public, becomes Prime Minister. However, that's not a compulsory routine, and the leader can be changed, the constitution contains nothing to preclude that happening.

We do not have a mechanism for electing a prime minister by public vote. And anyone who believes that the General Election is only about electing a Prime Minister is deluding themselves and, even worse, ignoring a myriad other important issues. The only sensible way to vote is for the party whose policies you believe will be the right ones to bring about the best result for the UK as a whole. Simply voting on the basis of one personality is short-sighted and ridiculous, as ridiculous as voting for a party 'because I always vote for them', or 'because my parents voted for them'.

And, of course, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that a future Tory government could switch horses mid-stream in exactly the same way that New Labour have done (God knows, the Tories have had enough trouble finding a leader they can stick with over the past twenty years or so, and who's to say that The Boy Wonder won't suffer the same back-stabbing that they dealt out to their one-time darling, the scorpion Thatcher?). I trust that such a leader-swap situation, should it happen whilst the Tories were in power, would attract the same expressions of outrage from you - that the new PM is a "prime minister who nobody elected"? :-) :-)

FWIW, I agree with you that Brown's never been the man for the job, I believed right from the time he was first mooted as Bliar's replacement that he would be a disaster as PM, and I wish anyone other than him had got the job, but get it he did, legally and within our constitutional rules, so there can be no gripes on that score. But, as you rightly say, there's an election coming............


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 02:00 AM

And FWIW again, leaders of parties don't have to be deposed for there to be a change - they have been known to die whilst in post! So, every way round, voting a particular way purely because you like/dislike a specific leader strikes me as a pretty unimaginative way to use a vote.

IMHO, of course. YMM (and probably will, if I'm not mistaken!) V.    :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: The Smiler
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:13 AM

I agree with BWM

I will be voting for the party that comes up with the best manifesto, that appeals to me most. We all know that they will not keep to the original manifesto, so we can only hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: The Smiler
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:38 AM

Well I have to say that the Lib Dem manifesto is interesting and ticks a lot of my boxes.

I have always voted Labour or Conservative in the past, but I am so disalusioned with Labour and Conservative, who I don't trust anymore.

I think it's time to break the mould and begin a fresh start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: romanyman
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:13 PM

Im glad i got me horses, and yes they do work for a living and yes you can viably use them around town, well i do, had a laugh yesterday when seamus was tied to a lamp post outside the shop on double yellows, traffic warden 0 me laughing, seriously for getting shortish journeys such as going shopping (even morrisons have got used to it now) even light deliveries its great, delivered two large rolls of carpet for a local shop this morning. costs me a bout a fiver a week to run i dont mind,


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:50 PM

""But Don, Banjoman, would you agree then that the labour idea for road pricing is an answer of sorts? It treats individuals on their individual circumstances, on where they happen to live and on where / when they drive. Take the tax off fuel and put it on those individual factors.""

You must have missed, or misunderstood, what I said in my post.

I am in favour of road pricing in the circumstances which I outlined.

1. Road pricing would have to replace all fuel tax, Road Fund Licence fees, and the extra purchase tax which is levied on new cars over and above VAT.

2. The revenue raised should be used in its entirety for the proper maintenance and upkeep of the road system, with the surplus going one hundred percent to providing proper public transport in Rural and suburban areas, with special attention to cross routes.

I know commuters will never be satisfied with the service they get, but I want to see money spent on those who get no service at all.

3. The difference between the cost of City, Town, Motorway, and Rural Pricing has to be realistic. Government has a long established habit of levying much more than is required for their purpose, and the surplus always disappears without trace.

4. Some account should be taken of the position with regard to pensioners. Disabled people get a mobility allowance in order that they might get out of the house, and have a reasonable quality of life.

Pensioners too, particularly those on a very low income, can all too easily become isolated, and virtually imprisoned in their homes. This needs to be recognised, and some small adjustment made to pricing, at least in rural areas.

If road pricing follows those four principles, then I'm all for it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 04:59 PM

""Don, not 'fallacious reasoning' at all, but a statement of fact about the UK electoral system. See, you're doing it again - trying to draw a parallel between our electoral system and a presidential system such as they have in the USA.""

You are talking about the generation which thinks Big Brother, The X Factor, Changing Rooms, and Wipeout are entertainment.

Do you honestly believe that even a large minority voted for New Labour on the local issues, and the qualities of their New Labour Candidate.

Them days are gone mate.

Bottom line,.......Blair looked good on TV! Brown doesn't even have that going for him.

That's it!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:09 PM

""Well I have to say that the Lib Dem manifesto is interesting and ticks a lot of my boxes.""

Well, one certainty is that the LibDems will not win the election.

So the best you get is a hung parliament.

Experience of the three previous occasions suggests that you will have voted in a New Labour/LibDem coalition, during which Gordon Brown will break whatever promises he makes to get their support, and ride roughshod over their wishes, just as Labour did on those three occasions since WW2.

The LibDems always join Labour because they have a pathological loathing for anything which originates from the Tories, right or wrong,and they always wind up with nothing.

You would think they'd learn, but they never do.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: The Smiler
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:16 PM

Don
Both Labour and Conservative do not deserve support from anybody. They are a bunch of lying toads. The problem is, is knowing who is the worst bunch of lying toads.

I don't want to vote for L or C. They do not deserve it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 05:26 PM

""I don't want to vote for L or C. They do not deserve it.""

I sympathise Smiler, but what I said still is valid.

If we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.

That is true, both for you, and for the LibDems.

A vote for Clegg is effectively a vote for Brown, so, like it or not, you have made a choice between Labour and Tory.

Some will agree with you, some will not, that's life.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 06:25 PM

I had to smile today when I realised that many of the 'pretend working-class' (teachers, retired teachers, doctors, solicitors, university staff etc.), in the 'posher' bits of my local community, have 'Vote Labour' posters in their windows - whilst many of the 'real working-class', on the local council estates, have Lib-Dem posters in theirs. Makes y'think, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 03:14 AM

Don, you may be a sheep, I'm not. I don't delude myself that I'm voting a president in.

And I don't just wave the flag of the party 'I always vote for', or 'my parents voted for', or 'the one that makes feel clever and superior' - I think before I vote, and I make informed decisions about who to vote for. I don't care about Big Brother, or X-Factor, or Cheryl Cole, or David Beckham, or which party-leader looks best on the telly, or who I think is most likely to win - I care about which party presents me with what I feel are the best policies, and that's who I vote for. If they don't win, that's OK - it's not a wasted vote, it's a vote which tells the other parties that I, at least, use my brain at the election and that they didn't persuade me to have faith in them.

That is indeed it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 04:24 AM

No further input from the white supremacist candidate for Chippenham?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 07:40 AM

"And I don't just wave the flag of the party 'I always vote for', or 'my parents voted for', or 'the one that makes feel clever and superior' - I think before I vote, and I make informed decisions about who to vote for."

Absolutely!! It's really about time more people in this country voted on this sort of basis. I swear that there are people around here who would still vote Labour if that party boiled their grannies down for soap and sold their children into slavery!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 08:37 AM

And some would vote Conservative if they did the same.
Short memories, some people have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 09:02 AM

I don't doubt it, 'Backwoodsman' - that's why the bastards keep getting in again!

All of my (voting) life I've been hearing stuff about "splitting the vote" if you don't vote Tory or Labour. But perhaps if a few more people were prepared to 'break the mould' perhaps we wouldn't have this monotonous swinging from left to right and a bit more choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 09:57 AM

You must have been reading my mantra!

If there's one saying that fucks me off more than "I vote ****** because I always have", or "I vote ****** because my parents did" its the one that dickheads trot out about "A vote for ****** (a party other than Labour or Conservative) is a wasted vote".

They're wrong - it's The Thinking-Man's Vote.

Some folks need to get the blinkers off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 07:09 PM

Royston this is a thread about petrol prices not a thread for you to attack me.

1 I have never owned a camper van just a small VAN that has just enough room to sleep in the back.

2 I have bought the car for the exact amount I got for the van and it is not NEW.

3 I would never accept help from you unless my son was in immediate danger and I needed help for him.

The van was diesel even more than petrol so now I can save a tiny bit on fuel as I need a vehicle to get around due to my ongoing mobilty issues or I would be virtually housebound.

Please do not respond to this post (if you 'have' to) on this thread.

G


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 07:14 PM

""And some would vote Conservative if they did the same.
Short memories, some people have.
""

As neither Labour nor Tories have ever boiled anybody's granny down for soap, or sold kids into slavery (and before some eejit says it, the ancient Tory Party of the "Whigs and Tories" era, bears no relation to the modern one so don't bother), that's rather a stupid comment, and it's exacerbated by the equally stupid ad hominem which follows.

And if you BWM can't see that your high and mighty principles gain you nothing, from a practical viewpoint, by all means waste your vote. There's a Labour, or Tory, candidate out there who will be very pleased to accept.

No sensible argument?...Attack the man. The final refuge of the genuine dickhead.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 03:37 AM

Don, I've given you sensible arguments but you can't, or won't, acknowledge them, just the same old blind stuff about 'wasted votes'. I'm just glad that my vision isn't permanently hindered by the wearing of blue or red-tinted spectacles. Over the period in which I've been eligible to vote, both Labour and Conservative governments have repeatedly raped the electorate, but I have to say that the worst and most violent rape was that carried out by the Thatcher regime, worst because she inflicted her vicious, vindictive spite on the poorest and most defenceless sections of our society, laid waste to huge areas populated by those she despised most - the poor and lowly.

But, the only wasted votes are those:-

1) Made without any real thought, made in blind and rigid adherence to one party because 'that's who I always vote for', or 'my parents voted for them so I will', or 'because voting for them makes me look like I'm one of the upper-class', or whatever other daft reason.

2) Those not made at all (perhaps the greatest, and certainly the saddest, waste)

Accept that, or don't - you may regard my sensible and unbiased principles as 'high and mighty', but guess what, I don't really care, I'm content in the knowledge that I, at least, have a working brain, an imagination, free will, and a willingness to use them all.

And wasn't it wonderful last night, to see the new-boy underdog, Clegg, run rings around the Young Toff (all soundbytes, little substance, few answers), and the Miserable Scot (no personality, no real answers to anything!). He made them both look very weak indeed.

Debate #2? Bring it on! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 04:13 AM

The van was diesel even more than petrol so now I can save a tiny bit on fuel

???

Diesel - 1.20 a litre. Petrol - 1.18 a litre.

Diesel 50+ MPG. Petrol 40MPG?

1 tank of diesel (50 litles) = £60. 1 tank of petrol = £59

Distance covered by diesel = 550 miles Distance covered by petrol = 440 miles

Cost per mile diesel = 11p Cost per mile petrol = 13p

And none of that includes cheaper road tax for efficient diesels, lower servicing costs and reduced insurance premiums.

Seems like someone got their sums wrong. As well as their politics.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Apr 10 - 04:57 AM

"As neither Labour nor Tories have ever boiled anybody's granny down for soap, or sold kids into slavery ..., that's rather a stupid comment ..."

You may characterise my comment as 'stupid', Don - that's your prerogative - although it doesn't advance the debate very far. Actually, my intention was 'dramatic exaggeration' to emphasise the real 'stupidity' of those who habitually vote the same way even if they disagree with most of 'their' party's policies. Where I live I know lots of Labour party supporters who state that they deplore the growing gap between rich and poor (even though that gap has widened under Labour), are against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, are dismayed by the recklessness of the banks (even though Labour failed to regulate them when they had the chance) and don't even have a lot of respect for the local Labour Party candidate. Yet still they go canvassing, deliver leaflets, put posters in their windows and will obediently vote Labour when the time comes. And don't tell me that they are attempting to 'change the party from within' - since Bliar the party's 'grass roots' have had less power than they've ever had.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 04:42 AM

I forgot to mention, Don, that those 'knee-jerk' Labour voters are also very uncomfortable about the MPs' expenses and lobbying scandals and ID cards - and still they vote Labour! In that light perhaps 'granny boiling' and compulsory child slavery edge just infinitessimally closer to reality ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 04:57 AM

WEhat's wrong with granny boiling and child slavery? Never did us any harm. It's about time we returned to good old fasioned values.

Disgusted of the Daily Mail


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 02:23 PM

Labour government's decision to place all their faith in the roads as their future preferred transport policy,to the detriment of the railways,canals,rivers,and the coastal shipping routes. So who are you going to blame for this present "got you by the balls" dilemma ??
    Pretty obvious, isn't it ??
             And please don't call Mrs Thatcher,despite all her faults, a "Bitch" on this forum------it is not what it's for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: romanyman
Date: 17 Apr 10 - 02:51 PM

like i said im glad i got me horse i only use the van for distance work now any local stuff goes on me cart, how green i have become


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 03:48 AM

You may recall, 'Bubblyrat', that Mrs T herself was very keen on a 'car owning democracy'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 07:28 AM

And please don't call Mrs Thatcher,despite all her faults, a "Bitch" on this forum-

How about 'cow', 'sow' or 'ewe'? Or maybe 'manipulative, war-mongering, two-faced, souless, twat'?

And since when did anyone tell us what words we can and can't use on this forum? If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen or stay above the line.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 09:33 AM

"Labour government's decision to place all their faith in the roads as their future preferred transport policy"

Ummmmmm, which party was in power when the ludicrously short-sighted decision was made to rip up 85% of our rail network back in the 60's, Bubbly? You know, the rail network that served every town and the vast majority of villages with passenger transport, and carried huge volumes of freight to all corners of the UK. You know which party it was, Bubbly - the same 'Robin Hood In Reverse Party' that takes from the poor to give huge tax cuts to the rich, that later gleefully destroyed our mining and manufacturing industries, leaving us at the mercy of Easter European countries for our energy, and Far Eastern countries for manufactured goods.

I remember, Bubbly, I was there. And it wasn't the Labour Party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 10:06 AM

""You know which party it was, Bubbly - the same 'Robin Hood In Reverse Party' that takes from the poor to give huge tax cuts to the rich, that later gleefully destroyed our mining and manufacturing industries, leaving us at the mercy of Easter European countries for our energy, and Far Eastern countries for manufactured goods.""

I do get a real laugh sometimes, when I read these half propaganda/ half urban myth comments.

Let's all ignore some uncomfortable facts, so that we can convince ourselves that it wasn't our side at fault. It was all done by the Tories.

The fact that millions of man hours were lost in wildcat strikes, and stoppages over impossibly inflated wage claims and disputes about whether a bolt fitter could screw the nut home, or should the spanner man fit the bolt?

The fact that the British manufacturing industry had made little forward progress since WW2.

The fact that the British worker was more interested in the clock than the machinery, and wanted fewer and fewer hours, for more and more wages.

The fact that all the above were true before the Heath government was elected, never mind Thatcher.

All this happened under the aegis of Britain's most crooked politician of all time, one Harold Wilson.

THAT is the truth of the situation.

While British car dealers were asking do you want any extas, and when told "No!", responding with "You want wheels and doors, don'tcha"?, the wily Japanese were offering cars with everything included.

The British Motorcycle industry were still producing WW2 technology bikes, while the Japs were knocking 'em out more luxurious than the average Brit car, and more sturdy, faster, safer.......

Japanese white goods, Japanese cameras, Japanese radios (that worked).

Still no Tory government since 1964, so how were they responsible?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 11:14 AM

I thing it was pretty equal as to whether the unions or the sucessive governments wrecked British industry, Don, but please don't go on about propaganda and half truths and then go on to perpetuate them yourself.

The point was being made about the railway closures. Nothing to do with any government but the Tories. Well before union influence could do anything.

The British worker being more interested in the clock is another half truth. While the workers in Europe had steadily done less hours since WW2 it was true that our did more and wanted parity with, in particular, German workers, who were still viewed as loosing the war but winning economicaly.

It amazes me how polarised opions can be when economocaly there is only one truth - No industry, no government and no organisation can function without the three necessities - Capital, Labour and Resources. While there are occasions when one should be bolstered it should never be said that one is more important than the other. None should be viewed as having more power than the other when it cannot work without it. The polarisation occurs when someone - both sides are equaly at fault here - decides that Capitalism should be master or Labour should rule. They are both vital and must co-exist to be sucessful.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 12:12 PM

DeG, I thank you.

You have just repeated something for which I argued on this forum five years ago, or more, and the verbal beating I got you wouldn't believe.

I have exactly the same attitude as yourself about capital and labour, but that dichotomy was not what we were talking about here.

I don't have any problems about agreeing with you about transport either. Beeching was a Tory appointee, and the worst mistake they ever made. He was a Cossack and a Vandal with no redeeming features, and I said so at the time.

However that doesn't in the slightest invalidate my comments re British industry. The unions destroyed it long before there was a Tory government to blame.

The mines were also mentioned, and here I have a slightly different view.

Miners were not getting a fair wage, and they deserved a better deal, but Arthur was holding out for much more than was reasonable in one lump.

You have to look at the character of the man who led them.

Arthur Scargill was a hothead, and an inveterate liar. He didn't negotiate, ever!    He demanded ever greater concessions, and when, early in the dispute he was offered a deal, he immediately increased his demands.

He not only insisted on impossible pay increases, but in addition refused to accept closure of uneconomical pits.

No company is going to pay men top wages to lose it money, and of course, the rest is history.

One year of misery, people died, and in the end the men went back to work with the deal he had turned down a year before. Families are still split to this day, and the numbers are, and were, pretty even.

Arguably, Scargill is as much to blame as Thatcher, for the suppression of the unions.

Like Wat Tyler, he got what he asked for, then decided to up the ante. Unlike Wat Tyler, it didn't cost his life. It was a poor taxi driver that paid the price when Arthur's militants dropped a concrete block through his windscreen. They didn't care that he was, just like them, simply trying to make a living.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 12:55 PM

And please don't call thatcher ,despite all her faults, a "Bitch" on this forum------it is not what it's for.

Why ever not? She was one and worse - a murdering sodding bitch - 659 Argentines and 255 British soldiers, sailors and airmen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 01:00 PM

He was a Cossack and a Vandal with no redeeming features,

Hey - Less of the personal abuse Mr T - I'll have you know I'm a Cossack!

(joking about the abuse - but genuine about being a Cossack. Kuban if you must know:-) )


Negaotiation is the key, Don and thanks for pointing it out. Even if we hold opposing views we can agree on things by fair compromise. You are quite right about Scargill. Thatcher was the same, but while he may have had the union she had the might of the government. Bad move on his part.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 02:59 PM

I always thought that,under English law,one could be taken to Court and sued for slander,libel,defamation of character etc, for promulgating & disseminating such remarks as yours, Bonzo ?? So,let's have your personal details, and I will be more than happy to set the wheels in motion,so to speak------it will be a pleasure,I assure you !!! ( I wonder what happened to the last person who PUBLICLY,as you have done, called Mrs Thatcher a "murdering ,sodding bitch" ??).Perhaps they were sent to clear illegally-laid anti-personnel mines in the Falklands ? One lives in hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petrol Prices UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 05:21 PM

I always thought that,under English law,one could be taken to Court and sued for slander,libel,defamation of character etc

Doesn't seem to worry your anti-imigration allies who take on the identities of many people here to libel and defame them via various right-wing web sites, Bubbly. I suggest that if you feel so strongly about it maybe you should shout about these abuses more evenly. Or maybe even do something about it?

DeG


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