Secrets of a good singaround?

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 05:42 AM

Just going right back to basics here - What is meant by a good singaround and who do you want it to be good for?

Is it good because a lot of people sing or good because there is a lot of diverse material or good because it is all familiar? Is it good if everyone joins in or good because there are a few really good singers or good because you sang well? Is it good if you get some instumentation of if it is completely unaccompanied or good if some new sounds come out of it?

Then, is it good for the singer? For non-participants? For the organiser? For the venue?

Too many variables, I'm afraid and I will not answer on the grounds that I may incriminate myself. Or, more likely, upset someone:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: John Routledge
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 07:20 AM

Perfect sweep up Dave. I too have no wish to incriminate myself.

Great way to finish a thread :0)

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 07:53 AM

"Someone said if you really want to put off accompanists, do a song in the key of B. Mind you some accompanists would regard this as a challenge so it could end up even worse!"
Singing in B: good key, but doesn't put the guitarists off (G capo 4)- not much of a challenge either if you know your chords and frets!

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 08:10 AM

I use F sharp a fair bit, and also Ebminor

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: GUEST,Tootler on BlackBerry
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 08:35 AM

"I use F sharp a fair bit or Ebminor"

Why not just ask others not to join in instead of singing in obscure keys? Sooner or later you will come across someone who can play in that key then you are scuppered.

At the singarounds I go to the norm is not to join in unless invited by the singer invites it.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: buddhuu
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 09:36 AM

Singing in B: good key, but doesn't put the guitarists off (G capo 4)- not much of a challenge either if you know your chords and frets!

Wipes the smile off fiddlers' and mandolin players' faces though. Mine at least.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 02:34 PM

Aw! I haven't got a harmonica in B yet. Better go and get one :-)

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 15 Apr 10 - 06:42 PM

In my experience a good traditional "singaround" (the topic of this thread)and which I am more familir with, is all about the singers and the songs they sing and has less to do about the skill of the musician who accompanied his/her song on guitar etc or if other musicians joined in to support (and sometimes ruin)a song - whatever key it is played in.

Regrettably, I have found in my experience, that some 'singarounds' planned, promoted and intended as 'singarounds', can end up as a tug-of-war/contest/competition between singers and musicians; with the musicians trying to take over.
Which can be a great shame and can ruin the session altogether.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 09:15 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 02:12 AM

Tootler, I use them because they work well for my voice on the songs in question and for my guitar parts in question.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: stallion
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:45 AM

I concur with others that tastes vary as to what makes a good singaround, I think the signaround can cater for many of these tastes, it is an opportunity for people who don't perform, with a song or two to sing, to get them out, an opportunity to get some sort of recognition when you're starting out, and also having a sing when your voice isn't particularly good or strong enough to lead a song. For me the beer hall at Mystic has it about right, performers are encouraged to turn up and join in, but the paying public, by and large, get to lead the songs and jump in when you can! Great atmosphere. The best singaround for me was at the first winter warmer at KFFC with us, Young'uns, Keepers Fold and Jez Lowe + others......quite a chorus.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 06:53 AM

My main problem with sing arounds is the theme thing. Too narrow for me. Why not have a whole evening of nothing but Latvian lullabys in Q flat demented?

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Girl Friday
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 10:39 AM

At sing arounds I've been to, themes just happen. Someone sings a song about something. Someone else is reminded that he / she knows a song about that, and sings it etc. etc. I have tried themed evenings at my club, but they don't work because not everyone knows a song about the theme.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:02 AM

Themes can always be gotten around. Shanties? Here is a song I do in 'C'... Traditional? It is traditional for me to sing this every Tuesday... Farming? Well, I think this song could sow some seeds...

Etc.

:D

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: IanC
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:13 AM

We have themes to keep us from getting bored, but mainly the exercise is fitting the theme to the song ...

:-)

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Marje
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:28 AM

I've been to the occasional themed session and quite enjoyed it. It does us no harm to be nudged out of our comfort zone a bit, if only to introduce a bit of variety.

Of course it you're really stubborn you can sing one of your usual songs and contort the theme to fit it, but I think many people enjoy the challenge of seeking out something they might not otherwise have sung. And at least if you do that, no one's going to say, "What in heaven's name did she choose that song for? It really doesn't suit her!" On the plus side, you may even find a song or type of song that you hadn't tried before and find that it suits you better than you expected.

Marje

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 12:22 PM

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 12:39 PM

That'l be a secret then Commander?

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 12:50 PM

One thing someone told in Seattle Song Circle years ago is don't mix instrumentals and singing...ad it pretty much worked. Someone else said don't let any instrumets in except guitars. Limiting, but it does solve problems.

Again, you have to decide if you want great music or very inclusive participation. Two different things usually. It is easier to go the default route of very inclusive participation. There will be strong forces pushing in that direction, and it is just easier to go with that from the start.

But you have to make it clear to people what the groundrules are...if it is an endless goround of solos, that is great for people who want audiences for their solos. If people want more group singing, which I do, then decide with or without books. You will attract two different kinds of groups. either is OK if you start out that way.

My objection is not that people use the blue books, if that is how their group was formed, but when they take over a group that has produced beautiful music without them for years and then all of a sudden the music takes a nosedive..a calamatous one. So if you want to do the blue book thing, or if you want to do the everyone takes endless turns thing, just do it, and say up front what the plan is so people can choose if that is what they want or not. Anything goes when you are setting it up. Set it up so that you will enjoy it. If others don't like your way, encourage them to set up their own way. Don't try to accomodate everyone, unless that is the purpose of the group. mg

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 01:30 PM

Just read the earlier bits about putting accompanists off.The beauty of unaccompanied singing is you can change key between verses. That can really p**s them off. It can be tricky explaining it was deliberate,

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:06 PM

Richard Bridge:

Tootler, I use them because they work well for my voice on the songs in question and for my guitar parts in question.

I would accept that if you had not said in a previous thread that you chose obscure keys deliberately to put would be accompanists off. I can understand the irritation of having someone try to accompany you when you have worked out an accompaniment for that particular song. I just think it is more honest to ask them to desist. I've seen it happen in a singaround and it did not spoil the evening, in fact it set a clear marker - don't accompany unless invited.

Mind you, unofficial accompanists are nowhere near as irritating as those who sing the song you are singing half under their breath. Especially if they are singing a different version.

mg

Someone else said don't let any instrumets in except guitars.

How about don't let any instruments in, especially not guitars :-)

...if it is an endless goround of solos, that is great for people who want audiences for their solos

In the UK, the norm is "round the room" in turns. The singer whose turn it is will choose a song and sing it. It is expected that the others in the room are free to join in any choruses and also you find that many clubs have conventions where every one will sing certain verses, or particular lines of some songs, but the person whose turn it is sings the song rather than leads the song. We don't really have the kind of group sings you seem to have in the US.

Our singarounds are not really about "audiences for your solos", though I am sure that is the case for some, but about swapping songs (for want of a better phrase).

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:56 PM

I'm puzzled by that Tootler - first I don't remember saying it and second it is not what I usually do, I'm quite a one for everyone joining in. Indeed I sometimes push my F# songs up to G to facilitate, and usually then bugger up my voice and/or my own guitar part. Can you direct me to where I said it?

There are SOME people I would deliberately try to sabotage and one in particular who can be relied upon to play out of time and out of key pretty much every time - and complain of cyberbullying if I give a large hint.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:47 PM

To be honest I can't remember but I think it was in one of those interminable "future of the folk clubs" threads some time ago. It is also quite possible I am mixing you up with someone else.

If I did get you mixed up with someone else, I apologise. I certainly don't want to misrepresent people.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: GUEST,Schlimmerkerl
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 06:11 PM

A pretty good overall guide from An Góilín: www.goilin.com/aboutus.php

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:02 PM

Ah - that could have been nearly but not quite what I said about melodeons (referent - a snigger snogwriter comedy song entitled "The melodeons are coming") - the endless succession of tunes that all sound vaguely like Nellie the Elephant.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:45 PM

Les

I could tell you, but then it wouldn't be a secret would it?

Twas actually a mouse key/digit interface error caused by a speed wobble.

CC

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:16 AM

I pondered promoting our Singaround - which are obviously do through here - but wondered if trying to keep it a secret would make it more interesting and would then only be discovered by the really interested and the eccentric.

L in C

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:02 PM

The first rule of the Beech singaround is that you don't talk about the Beech singaround. (The second is that you come down to the Beech in unfeasibly large numbers every second and fourth Wednesday & sing songs mostly (but not exclusively) traditional.)

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Nick
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:57 PM

"Just read the earlier bits about putting accompanists off.The beauty of unaccompanied singing is you can change key between verses. That can really p**s them off. It can be tricky explaining it was deliberate,"

Between verses? Why not lines? Or even words? I know quite a lot of unaccompanied singers who change key pretty constantly... I never realised it was to piss me off (it doesn't) I always thought it was because they were incompetent. In those cases I always looked at accompaniment as akin to those extra wheels you put on the back of a kid's bicycle.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:57 PM

Me I'm saying nothin ................

L in C

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 03:19 PM

Ah - that could have been nearly but not quite what I said about melodeons (referent - a snigger snogwriter comedy song entitled "The melodeons are coming") - the endless succession of tunes that all sound vaguely like Nellie the Elephant.

I see what you mean. Been there.

The tune usually goes

diddle diddle bump bump
diddle diddle bump.
diddle diddle diddle diddle
bump bump bump.

F# and C# will thwart massed melodeons every time - even those who come along with a C/F box [g]

Shouldn't be saying this. Some of my best friends play melodeon.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 05:17 PM

Er, that would be first and third Wednesdays. If I was talking about it, which I'm not.

Changing key isn't necessarily a sign of incompetence, incidentally - most unaccompanied singers tend to drift up over the length of a song, sometimes quite noticeably. (You can hear the great Tony Rose drifting off-pitch on his version of the Golden Vanitee - although the chorus singers are having none of it and quickly drag him back down.)

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: skipy
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 05:37 PM

I tried to learn the words to "Happy birthday" when I was 7, but the name keeps changing, perhaps if someone wrote the name down next time I am at a party I will have time to learn it!
Skipy
Avoid the Fox at Uffington this friday night, as I will be out with the Icknield way morrismen (see website) & I WILL sing from a crib sheet! & WILL after the song raise my tankard & shout "Up yours Shimrod"!

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Nick
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:00 PM

Pip

I wasn't commenting on people whose pitch 'drifts' up (or usually down in my experience actually) during a song. It was the ones where the whole song is an exercise in involuntary random pitch shifting. Bit like playing Three Blind Mice with your finger on the Modulation wheel on a midi keyboard with a bad case of the DTs

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Tootler
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:50 PM

Woops.

Guest 20 Apr 10 - 03:19 PM was me. Just updated my browser and my cookie had got lost.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 03:54 AM

"Avoid the Fox at Uffington this friday night, as I will be out with the Icknield way morrismen (see website) & I WILL sing from a crib sheet! & WILL after the song raise my tankard & shout "Up yours Shimrod"!"

And your good health too, 'Skipy'! Have one on me!

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Marje
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 04:37 AM

Tootler (aka Guest), you're quite wrong about Nellie the Elephant. You really haven't been paying attention. It's:

Diddly diddly bumpy bumpy,
Bumpy diddly bump bump,
Bumpy diddly, diddly bump,
Bump, bump bump!

At least it's a bit more rhythmically varied than Irish jigs, which don't even have bumpy bits, and are generally:
Diddly diddly diddly diddly
Diddly diddly diddly diddly ....

Marje

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: GUEST,George Henderson
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 05:10 AM

30 years experience with the Góilín singers club in Dublin shows that the "jump in" method really works. It leads to informal themes, groups of songs from a particular author (eg Cyril Tawney), humorous body counting during long ballads etc. An unwritten rule which is respected by almost everybody attending is that only one song is sung per person at least until everybody who wants to has had a go. A light touch MC chooses 3 people to commence the session in each half giving them the chance to select shy individuals who may never jump in. It actually works very well. Góilín is a forum for unaccompanied Traditional singing in any language.

In our Bray session we are promoting impromptu singing with rather less success but people are slowly coming round to it. We were only 2 years old last Saturday so we have a long way to go to catch up to Góilín. It really is a good system. Once again we have a light touch MC to ensure that it does not get out of hand. We welcome people who wish to accompany themselves under the proviso that they do not accompany anyone else unless requested to do so. And our sessions are not strictly traditional. Anything goes as long as it is acoustic. The MC ensures that people are given an opportunity to sing if they want to despite their reluctance to "jump in".

The "Noble Call" system can work depending on the understanding of people within the session. I have seen this work extremely well at the Inishowen Traditional song seminar in Ballyfiffen each March (next festival is their 22nd). Once again the groups present ensured that the noble call (where one singer nominates the next)works on the principle of one person one song until all have sung.

The jump in is my preferred method of operating but it simply will not work if there are selfish people around who simply want to hear themselves.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:12 AM

F# and C# will thwart massed melodeons every time - even those who come along with a C/F box

I have a C/C# :-) Buggered for F# though. Mind you, I'm buggered for most things as I cannot play it anyway...

DeG

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:31 AM

Music is above all else a cooperative evnt isn't it?

L in C

Not C# but I am willing to negotiate

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: G-Force
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:01 PM

I have just spotted this thread and find it interesting but controversial.

1) Don't you think it a bit narrow minded to suggest that anyone who needs a tiny prompt in case they forget the words should be banned forever more? A lot of people are getting older and find words more and more difficult (however well they know the song) but are still great singers with a lot of experience and a real pleasure to listen to.

2) There's been some talk about musicians 'interfering' in a song session (agreed, not always desirable) but what about music sessions? I've seen singers try to take over what is clearly advertised as a music session. A good session operates much like a singaround with tolerance for all levels of ability, etc. and while the musicians will listen politely to a singer it isn't quite what they've crowded into the pub for.

I think all those points about good manners apply to everyone.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:58 PM

"Don't you think it a bit narrow minded to suggest that anyone who needs a tiny prompt in case they forget the words should be banned forever more?"

No, it's not narrow minded - it's tough, but fair, and for their own good - and, more importantly, for the good of the audience.

And I have absolutely no power to ban anyone "forever more" - even if I might like to!

Oh yes! A whole flipping exercise book is not "a tiny prompt"! Especially when the b****rd neglects to find the relevant flipping page in the flipping exercise book before his/her turn comes round - and then loses that flipping place half way through the flipping song - and then f***ing well decides to start again!!!!

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: skipy
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:17 PM

Good health to you Shimrod, please have one on me & shout
"up yours Skipy"
Regards & humour Skipy

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 04:34 PM

Are you one of 'The Angry Old Gits' GUEST Shimrod?

Calm down dear boy!

P.S.... Your 'GUEST' status/welcome has expired.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:55 PM

Sorry Marje. I consider myself well and truly chastised and corrected.

I was thinking of the 1001 tunes that are variants of Davy, Davy Knick Knack.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:50 AM

I can think of few greater things to aslpire to than playing a few diddly tunes in a pub with a group of friends

L in C#

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 05:17 AM

Oi, banjo man - "secrets of a good diddly tunes session" is thataway ->!

Mind you, to judge from last night one of the s. of a g. s. might be - just possibly slightly-grudgingly miiiighht be - playing the odd tune as well. But I'd like to hear from non-players on that one.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 07:12 AM

I'm both a player and a singer, but I prefer song sessions to be just that. Somehow an instrumental item (or even a song that relies heavily on instrumental breaks) seems to break the flow and the concentration. It's different at a club where you get your five minutes to do tunes, songs or whatever, but a purely song session has a character all its own.

On the other hand, I quite like the occasional song in a music session, and there's no doubt that, if you're in a public bar, the punters enjoy a song or two rather than wall-to-wall tunes.

Marje

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 09:06 AM

Some Irish tunes go diddly diddly diddly (rpt ad lib). Those would be slipjigs I think.

Subject: RE: Secrets of a good singaround?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 09:17 AM

I think the secrets of a good sing around are just that - secret.

I've only been to a couple of sing arounds as they are not really my thing. However, I have come across singing sessions at smaller festivals. They were as some of you describe - sitting round the room with each person having a turn. Where the first singer was good - the next one was better - and so on round the room. A few people accompanied themselves but most did not need to. The quality was better than you would get in most folk clubs or local pub sessions.

Although they made strangers welcome I got the impression that many people knew each other. At the end of an evening of real quality singing I left with the impression that the good singers know which festivals these occur at and will attend several of these festivals during the year. If too many people knew where these events took place it would perhaps dilute the quality element of the occassion.

So the secret of a good sing around - keep it a secret between the really good singers.