Do folk people like the Bodhran?

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,Gary-The Hut People
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 07:01 PM

Thanks for telling me what I mean Shimrod, now where did I leave that article on arrogance

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: buddhuu
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:57 AM

@Mo the caller: Thanks, that was very interesting info.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: OlgaJ
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:04 AM

I play the bodhran for dance bands AND music sessions and adapt my style to suit the music being played, I sometimes also accompany singers on my own, after asking first if it is OK of course.

As far as dance music is concerned I was once playing with a large scratch band when the band leader got completely lost and as a result everyone stopped playing except me. The dance carried on to the drum beat until the leader was able to come back in at an appropriate point in the dance, it wasn't ideal but at least the dance could continue.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:29 AM

Their are various kinds of dancing in these islands, danced in various sorts of shoes.
At least one sort uses 'battering' as a deliberate rythmic part of the dance. I have been to workshops in Irish Set dance where I learnt that in the past (c1950s) these dances were danced in kitchens in everyday shoes. The dances are danced in a square, with each couple taking the lead in turn. In those days only the men 'battered', they didn't batter all the time. Mostly one man would do a bit, sometimes two would set up a 'question and answer'. For some dances a specific pattern of step and rythm have been collected, but it was also improvised according to the skill of the dancers.
In modern Set Dance circles there are 2 strands, those who dance with steps close to the ground and sparing use of battering, and those who dance in a more springy fashion (like other forms of Irish Step dance) and everyone batters all the time.

Please excuse the probably incomplete and erroneous Englishwoman's summary.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 07:42 AM

"people who make them can't cope with differences of opinion, unorthodox views and 'straight talking'."

Please I really cant tell on here who is straight or not.
Does it have any bearing on the subject of the argument?
errr Discussion.


Hows the repairs to the castle coming along Pete?

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 05:50 AM

"I can't believe some of the dogma, arrogance and downright rudeness of some people."

What statements like that usually mean in threads like this, GHT is that people who make them can't cope with differences of opinion, unorthodox views and 'straight talking'.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: s&r
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:48 PM

Wasn't Doolin on that occasion; we did and do visit Doolin from time to time. We have family in Ireland and visit regularly, sometimes with the band sometimes without. Always been welcome.

Stu

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:36 PM

"I can't believe some of the dogma, arrogance and downright rudeness of some people"

I couldn't agree more. Narrow minds and long faces....

"It really isn't anything to do with good and bad players - it is the limitations of the instrument itself"

I don't claim to know much about Irish music but, to keep it polite, I disagree profoundly with that statement

"Frame drums are used for dance all over the world, but nearly always played with the fingers for anything complicated"

Yes, and can be very effective with linear music too: Ahmad Al Khatib and David Kuckhermann

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 03:42 PM

What's the problem? I'm thinking of the guy in Cordelia's Dad

You took the words right out of my mouth, he was very good and so was Steve Tilston's ex.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,guest - Jim Younger
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:42 PM

Oh dear - it's really a question of musicianship ... to me anyway. If a good percussionist came with a frame drum and played along with me - even if it was on an Appalachian tune - I would be happy. What's the problem? I'm thinking of the guy in Cordelia's Dad ... can't remember his name just now, but he was very nifty. And there was a guy down in Collier's Wood once who played blindingly well on a frame drum. If you're shit, you're shit, if you're good you're good, whatever you play. There's a photo I saw of some outfit in New York from maybe the 30/40s with a drum proudly displayed.

Why can't we get together and attack the mandolin-banjo players for a change? They truly are the spawn of Satan. (Oh, that includes me, never mind.)

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:13 PM

I tend to the opposite conclusion about playing for dance - these days, in a typical ceilidh, there are very few moments when the sound of the dancers' feet contributes anything. But the dancers *do* listen to percussion, if there is any, more than they do to the melody. So drums have a useful role when playing for dancing.

Which has consequences for the *style* of percussion playing you use. Scottish ceilidh bands use a percussion style mainly derived from the military, with some jazz and rock influences. It places strong emphasis on the downbeats, and the patterns used reflect the phrasing of the tune (i.e. you'll beat out exactly the same eight-bar phrase twice if the tune repeats that way). The tune will often give precise cues for figures in the dance, and the percussionist's role is to emphasize those (no matter what the instrument - when I play percussion it's the washboard). This is equally true for English dance. For some tunes, the percussion beating alone would identify them to an average dancer ("Petronella" or "The High Road to Linton", say), if the percussionist was playing in a sensible way.

But that way of playing is NOTHING like what you get in Irish tune sessions, where the beat pattern is in the same time signature as the tune, but beyond that, does nothing at all to emphasize its structure. I don't do Irish tune sessions so I don't have an opinion about what ought to happen at them - but neither do opinions based on that setting have much to contribute to the direction the OP was going in. I have seen advice like "don't track the rhythm of the tune or you're kill it for the melody players" in Irish bodhran tutors - when trying to give the beat to a large hall full of ceilidh dancers, that advice could not be more wrong.

I would suggest that a tipper is not the easiest way to get the precise phrasing you want for dance, though. Frame drums are used for dance all over the world, but nearly always played with the fingers for anything complicated.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Zen
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 01:34 PM

I can't believe some of the dogma, arrogance and downright rudeness of some people.

An excellent summary of what this thread has become... and increasingly the state of discussion on this forum, involving the usual intolerant types.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 01:12 PM

"I've seen more good sessions ruined by insensitive arseholes who sit down and play unasked"

I've had a bout of that myself recently. I recommend a combination of Preparation H and Deflatine.

Pete.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,Penda
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 01:05 PM

The bodhran makes a great sound when played with a red hot poker. Do us all a favour, don't learn or attempt to learn it - if you've already got one don't give it away - it might spread the contagion - it is far better to burn it where it might do some good.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 12:19 PM

yes! and why shouldn't we?

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:56 AM

the real question is Do Bodhran people like folk?

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:43 AM

I always look forward to a Bodhran solo in 100 Pipers

L in C

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,Gary The Hut People
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:38 AM

I don't usually get involved in these threads but I had to come on to this one. I can't believe some of the dogma, arrogance and downright rudeness of some people. Bodhrans can be played well and sensibly with great subletly but the reverse can occur as well. So what! I don't play one I found it too difficult, technically it's not an easy instrument to play, certainly to a high standard. However, everyone is entitled to play on any tune they wish, I have played with so many artists over the years and the musicians who struggle playing with percussionists are usually those with appalling timing.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:28 AM

"I'm thinking of learning the Bodhran, but I'm wondering how it will be received.

I mainly mix in English folk circles, and don't want to be criticized every time I get an Irish instrument out.

So, my question basically is: Would it be welcomed or frowned upon?"

I don't think you will be criticized for getting it out matey.
amongst all the comments above are some that make sense even if ,as in J.Cs and S.S it takes some sorting out.
Play it gentle and low and only on appropriate tunes that you can deal with,and only after you ask if its ok.
Most of the time I just ask nicely and promise to be quiet.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:19 AM

Thats ok Jim I am sure I have said things and gotten away with it before.
LOL

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: buddhuu
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:15 AM

Yes, Steve, I do get it but, I'm embarrassed to say, I didn't cotton on until after I'd posted to say I didn't follow. *Groan*

Anyway...

Well you see, that fiddle fella was adamant that the dancer in the old days did clatter deliberately. As I said, I've no idea if that's true, or if it's a heap.

I have been to sessions where, as far as I could tell, the bodhran was clattering in a way that a) contributed to the music and b) was with the blessing of the musicians. :-P

The concept of sonic spaces in music is not new at all. It's not even my idea. Sound engineers and producers use the concept in mixing recordings.

That said, I accept that sonic space doesn't always have to be filled. I wasn't saying it did. My point way that percussion could occupy the space otherwise occupied by dancing feet. Not that it had to, or that a drum is as good as a floorful of happy dancers. It was just a thought.

Personally, I think it was a valid one, so I'll stand by it.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 10:49 AM

Yes you do get it. Please tell me that yes you do get it...

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 10:46 AM

"In the absence of dancers, I see nothing inappropriate in percussion filling the sonic space that might otherwise be occupied by feet."

Well I just might. This is an interesting new concept in music, that tunes are provided with "sonic spaces" begging to be filled. Especially by some skin-bashing dolt. However, tunes ~are~ provided, gladly, for people to dance to. If they happen to clatter their feet whilst so doing they are (a) not consciously doing it as a contribution to the music and (b) doing it with the blessing of the musicians. So comparing what dancers do with what goat-whankers do (that was on purpose) is hardly valid.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: buddhuu
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 10:31 AM

"Still, this isn't really about u is it?"

I don't follow, Steve...

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 10:26 AM

I didn't realise you were the same buddhu, buddhuu, what with that extra vowel an' all. Still, this isn't really about u is it? :-)

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 10:03 AM

In fact, I read it that he was talking specifically about "English folk circles".

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,buddhuu
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 09:55 AM

Steve S said: "It's a shame that most traditional melody players have such sweet natures. We can be our own worst enemies at times."

You have a point, Steve. For as long as I've "known" you I've always thought you should try to be more direct and assertive! ;-)


@Jim: I would never join any session (on any instrument) without asking first. Never have done. I usually go along first with no instrument and have a chat to see if any of my instruments (at my level of playing) would be welcome, rather than arriving tooled-up and putting people on the spot.

Most people I know, even bodhran batterers and banjo players, do similar.

I have seen and heard many bad bodhran players - Certainly more bad than good - but I certainly don't think that justifies condemnation of all, especially outside the dance tune session context.

Many bodhran sceptics are conveniently ignoring the fact that the OP was not talking specifically about IrTrad sessions.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 09:24 AM

No you're probably right - it's the arrogant twats who have given themselves the right to play them wherever they choose.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 08:59 AM

"I did notice that nobody ventured an answer as to why bodhrans are universally hated.."

They are not, that's why.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 08:55 AM

"Nevertheless, the gobby, Trad bully boys"
Now there's a piece of bullying for you! Works both ways folks - I've seen more good sessions ruined by insensitive arseholes who sit down and play unasked, whether they are able to or not. That is as much being a bully boy' as being asked not to play, which, in thirty-odd years I've never seen happen.
I did notice that nobody ventured an answer as to why bodhrans are universally hated - is it really just the rest of the world?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 08:38 AM

When it was danced to, more widely than it is now, it was often customary for dancers to wear footwear that would make a racket when battered against stone flags. Or to dance upon a wooden floor that would make a noise. This Kerry geezer reckoned that you'd get people trying to dance louder than each other.

Now, I don't know if that's true or not. Strikes me as plausible.

In the absence of dancers, I see nothing inappropriate in percussion filling the sonic space that might otherwise be occupied by feet.

I find nothing inappropriate in that either.

However if the hard-shoe-shod dancers get as across, and out of time with, the music as the type of bodhran-thumper we're talking about, there's a whole lot of 'sonic space' which gets filled with hopeless mush - and that is what we're talking about here. Nothing to do with banning instruments or enforcing The Pure Drop or whatever, just trying to take a stand against the tunes getting buried under a relentless tide of badly battered goatskin.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:51 AM

I like the fool because I sometimes play it.

This is getting silly...!

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:43 AM

I like the football because I sometimes play it.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:33 AM

I like the Bodhran because I sometimes play it.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:21 AM

If I'm going to listen to drums of any sort in folk music, I prefer to listen to Dave Mattacks.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:16 AM

Buddhuu: "There are people who would ban everything except pipes, fiddles, flute and harp (and maybe whistle). What is important is whether the instrument can add to the proceedings, or at least not detract or ruin."

Exactly. All the other bannable instruments you mentioned are melody instruments. In diddley music at least all the essence of the music is in the tunes, and that includes the rhythmic drive. There is nothing a bodhran can add because it is not a melody instrument. At its very best in sessions a bodhran adds nothing but noise. Unfortunately, it is seldom at its very best. This is not theoretical claptrap emanating from the mouths of theoretical purists, you know. It's the bitter fruit of many years' experience of putting up with talentless and tasteless thumpers. In decades of going to sessions they are the only kind of bodhran player a lot of us have ever encountered. It's a shame that most traditional melody players have such sweet natures. We can be our own worst enemies at times.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:02 AM

QUOTE manitas: "ask 'em to give you the names of the tunes they're playing on. "

C'mon, most melody players don't know the names of the tunes themselves. UNQUOTE

I did give you several alternative challenges to put to them!

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,Buddhuu
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 05:36 AM

The OP's question was about whether "folk people" like the bodhran, not just tune session people.

Nevertheless, the gobby, Trad bully boys as always seem unwilling even to let people at other kinds of folk get-togethers choose which instruments they want to include and welcome.

Maybe one of them claims the absolute authority to rigidly define "folk", and therefore to prescribe or proscribe the instruments we may use in ballad sessions and singarounds.

I would never play a drum in a tune session where it was unwanted, nor without asking first, as I know the hostility is widespread.

Some people will claim that guitars shouldn't be allowed in sessions, that banjos should be banned, that free reeds - especially harmonicas and piano accordians should be kept out.

The origins of the bodhran are not terribly important. Sessions are full of johnny-come-lately, "non-Trad" instruments. There are people who would ban everything except pipes, fiddles, flute and harp (and maybe whistle). What is important is whether the instrument can add to the proceedings, or at least not detract or ruin.

I endured a lecture once in a pub in Kerry from a bloke who claimed to be a fiddle player, although he didn't have a fiddle with him... I had sat in on a session with my mandolin, which was fine until he heard my English accent. Upon sussing my nationality he decided to tell me all about the music and its origins. He was a pain in the arse, but he did make a point...

Much of session music is dance music, or adapted from dance music.

That said, I pity the dancer who would try to dance along with 'Maid Behind the Bar' at the speed some session wankers play it (I know it's on many people's sneered-at, cliche tune list, but if you're that desperate to get it over with, why play it at all?).

I digress. Dance music. A lot of it is basically dance music. When it was danced to, more widely than it is now, it was often customary for dancers to wear footwear that would make a racket when battered against stone flags. Or to dance upon a wooden floor that would make a noise. This Kerry geezer reckoned that you'd get people trying to dance louder than each other.

Now, I don't know if that's true or not. Strikes me as plausible.

In the absence of dancers, I see nothing inappropriate in percussion filling the sonic space that might otherwise be occupied by feet.

I am happy to have the courtesy not to play my bodhran in your session. Fair's fair, and I'd hope that even a pure-drop big mouth would find the same manners and not slag off my drum in my local pub where all are welcome.

If they did, they would be inviting a lesson in a different kind of percussion.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 05:11 AM

"I don't think that was mine.."
Sorry Tim - didn't think it sounded like you; all these trips round the minds of bodhran players have brought on the agorophobia again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 05:07 AM

C'mon, most melody players don't know the names of the tunes themselves.

Heard a nice jokey claim recently that there are really only four tunes in the whole of the Irish music world - and the true function of festivals, fleadhs, summer schools etc. is to keep thinking up new names for them!

Regards

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 05:01 AM

"ask 'em to give you the names of the tunes they're playing on. "

C'mon, most melody players don't know the names of the tunes themselves.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:19 AM

"....stepping outside your area of expertise."

What ho James!
I don't think that was mine,;-]

Thanks for the seat though.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:15 AM

"OK Tim, next time you have a bodhran player round your way ask 'em to give you the names of the tunes they're playing on. Ask 'em if they know whether a given tune they're thumping away on is a jig, reel, hornpipe or polka. Ask 'em to play the tune they're "accompanying" on a melody instrument, or even if they can just whistle it. I think you'll end up a disappointed man."

Maybe so Steve, maybe so. I think its just as likely with any one new to the music or the particular session what ever instrument they are playing.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:10 AM

Howard

That's as elegant and succinct an analysis of the contribution of percussion to Irish music as I've ever read. Well put, sir!

Regards

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 03:45 AM

The role of percussion for folk music is quite different from its role in rock. In rock music, the drums lay down a base for the other musicians. In folk music, the rhythm is inherent in the melody and percussion is not necessary, but if it is there its role is to accompany and support the melody. A skilful bodhran player will play quietly, to underpin the melody rather than try to lead it. They will also know when not to play.

A good percussionist needs to know the tune, the key (drums, even bodhrans, can be tuned) and the ability to listen to and respond to the rhythmic nuances introduced by the melody musicians. In short, they need the same qualities of musicianship as the melody players. Some percussionists have this, most don't - worse, most don't even realise they need it.

I have no problem at all with percussion played well and appropriately. However it's not the easy option which so many people (including, unfortunately, so many percussionists) think it is.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:22 AM

"....stepping outside your area of expertise."
Thanks for the reminder Tim, and for a peep into the head of a bodhran player. Will remember to give up my seat next time a bodhran player graces our presence at one of the half dozen weekly sessions over here.
Jim

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 09:41 PM

At our chantey session last Sat nite, I led Ted Egan's "Taking you back to Broome." As the rhythm of the song was somewhat similar to that of the song which preceded mine, I found myself wishing I had Bloodwood's Bodhran player to help me keep the rhythm straight. Regrettably, there were no bodhran players present.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:39 PM

OK Tim, next time you have a bodhran player round your way ask 'em to give you the names of the tunes they're playing on. Ask 'em if they know whether a given tune they're thumping away on is a jig, reel, hornpipe or polka. Ask 'em to play the tune they're "accompanying" on a melody instrument, or even if they can just whistle it. I think you'll end up a disappointed man.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:04 PM

I love them. Maybe I should get one. mg

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:55 PM

"Tootler, the bodhran can't add anything at all to a session because everything that a bodhran can do is already there in the tunes. The rhythmic and percussive drive is intrinsic in dance tunes, and every bodhran player I've ever heard, even those with at least a semblance of rhythmic sense, has done no more than add a repressive and dulling layer of noise. They all overpower the little nuances of articulation that decent melody players can bring. One of the biggest problems is that even those few bodhran players who rise slightly above the execrable still think that all they need to know is what kind of tune is and then they're away. I contend that you should know the tune pretty well before you even ~think~ about joining in. Well enough to play it on a melody instrument. That stricture applies to melody players, so why should aspiring bodhranistas be exempt?"

Not noticed anyone saying here that they should.
I have found that the melody players are often as good as the Bodrhan players,unless of course they are regulars to the session who have spent the last few years playing exactly the same set of tunes,they are then often at least predictable.
Jim, a diva?
Moi?
You can be surrounded by the best musicians in the world mate it doesnt make you one. However is you played something and were surrounded by the best musicians in the world or any I suppose it does give you a chnace to improve by association.
Maybe a slightly less judgmental attitude and a little encouragement would work wonders even for a bodrhan basher?

Now who didn't read my rider properly why are there no blue smarties in my post bash bath?