BS: Illegal Swiss army knife

Subject: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Kampervan
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 02:35 AM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7593039/Disabled-caravanner-given-criminal-record-for-penknife-in-car.html


Assuming that we can take the facts at face value, does anyone know why this man was found guilty of carrying an offensive weapon?

I understood that knives with blades of less than 3" and which folded away easily (e.g. your average Swiss army pocket knife) were legal. Is it all getting a bit out of hand?

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:00 AM

Good grief. In the US hunting knives are far larger, and perfectly legal. On airplanes a knife has to be below 3 inches though. Ulus, Eskimo knives, are not legal as carryons, although it boggles my mind to figure out how one could use an ulu aggressively.

When I came to Alaska I drove to Prince Rupert in British Columbia to catch the ferry. At the check station they asked me if I had any firearms and I said, No, but that I did have a knife, that my brothers insisted that I carry it in the car.

I asked if they wanted to see it and they said yes. So I opened the glove box and showed them the sheathed hunting knife. They said it was fine, and I put it back in.

Of course, this was before 9/11 so maybe things have changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Sooz
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:44 AM

If the knife has a lockable blade it is illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Kampervan
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 04:11 AM

Absolutely, Sooz; but Swiss army knives are not normally lockable

If this one was lockable then that would explain it, but there was no mention of this.
Given that so many people do carry this sort of pen knife then it would be nice to know exactly what was wrong on this occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 04:25 AM

While there still is a theoretical limit of 3" for the length of the blade, even Kansas has changed (about two weeks ago) their law to permit carrying some kinds of "flip open" knives. Previously any knife that could be opened with one hand was illegal; but the common use of "flip knives" by trades-people has finally been legalized. (And of course, if the blade opens easily, it must lock open in order to be safe to use, so maybe a law against a knife that can be closed with one hand would have made better sense.)

Fear of that most deadly of all "weapons" - the straight razor - keeps it still illegal to possess here, although I haven't heard of an arrest of a barber recently, and I'm quite sure at least a few of them still have a razor in the shop. Anyone of normal mental competence - who's ever had one in their hand - would be aware that a "straight razor" is much more dangerous to the one holding it than to anyone else in the vicinity. A broken drinking glass or beer bottle has a much better handle, and is much more useful for mayhem and acts of malicious intent.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 04:54 AM

It appears that the law has been changed, and the size of bladed instruments has been redefined. However, it used to be the case, that the police had to prove intent, on the part of the person charged.
I was charged with carrying an offensive weapon, viz 2 rings, these were fairly ordinary finger rings. I was lucky, inasmuch as I had a credible witness to the conversation in which a dimwit plod alleged that I said I was going to wear said rings to beat up coppers at an upcoming anti-war demo.
The case was thrown out, and my costs had to be met by the police, but make no mistake, this is a serious charge, and I had to employ a solicitor to defend me.
There have been cases of Doc Martin, boots, and even umbrellas, being classified as offensive weapons, and the owners of said items, successfully charged and convicted in English courts.
I sometimes carry a Leatherman multi-tool in a case, on my belt, and under the law as it stands at present, I could be charged again. Unfortunately it appears that the laws on this have so been perverted as to make one guilty until proved innocent, that it is most unlikely that many people will succeed in the defence of "reasonable excuse", which I believe is now the only valid defence now.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:12 AM

So, once again, the only people who will be affected are the innocent. Criminals, unconcerned with breaking the law, will carry knives for nefarious purposes anyway and quite likely be able to get away with it, while those carrying knives, like I do, because it is far easier than carrying screwdrivers, wirestrippers, scissors etc. will be penalised. The police statistics on knife arrests will be up while actual knife crime will increase and the losers will be, once again, Joe Public.

Ah well, good to know that it is business as usual...

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:18 AM

There is a gang of whackos here who are going to gather at the Eastern Promenade all displaying pistols! Dodge City in Portland Maine! And, it is legal. The "Gun nuts" have gone too far. It's this sort of irrational behavour that get bills passed in the legislature. Then the damn fools cry about their rights!

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:28 AM

Just googling so I don't know how accurate it is but the most recent I can find (January 2009) still ssys -

The special exception which exists in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (s139) for folding knives (pocket knives) is another "common sense" measure accepting that some small knives are carried for general utility however even a folding pocket knife of less than 3" (76mm) may still be considered an offensive weapon if carried or used for that purpose. It was a long held common belief that a folding knife must be non-locking for this provision to apply.
This could of course have been updated and I would be grateful for any information on that but if the above is still true I suspect that there is more to the case than meets the eye.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:32 AM

The laws in the US regarding possessing "weapons" - and "burglary tools" etc - generally vary from one state to the next, with additional municipal ordinances. I have copies of a couple of ATF reports on laws relating to "weapons" that each list something like 16,000 different "significant" laws on weapon possession across the US (but those books are 20 or 30 years old, and they don't say what they consider the "insignificant" ones).

One area where there is some consistency: the NHTSA specifies that no truck operator licensed for interstate commerce may have, anywhere on a truck, "any object that MIGHT be used as an offensive weapon." Strictly interpreted, that means no tire-thumpers (but the fine for driving on a flat tire can be $500 or more), no screwdrivers (but having a burned out tail light can cost $300 or more), etc. ... etc ...

Sanity does not exist, let alone the possibility that it might prevail.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:36 AM

Whoops - sorry. Didn't turn the italics off.

Anyway - On looking a bit deeper it looks as though the knife had quite a large blade which may have had locked (that is not clear from the reports but the police officer did say some such) and, more significantly, the officer gave the man the opportunity to hand the knife in. It was only when the man refused to give him the knife that the arrest was made. So, as per my previous post, I think there is more to this than meets they eye.

I made the error of seing no further than the headline when I made my first comment. I should have known better.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Seayaker
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:49 AM

Looking at the GoXplore website you can carry a folding non lockable pocket knife with a blade less than 3 inches as long as you don't use it or intend to use it as an offensive weapon, so I don't know why this case came to court. Perhaps the Police were piqued at not being able to prosecute for drunk driving but I think they should have had to prove malicious intent to bring a case.

I always carry a Swiss Army Knife in my pocket as it is very usefull as a multi-tool.

It looks as though this guy has been a victim of the sort of tabloid driven law interpretation which does nothing to solve the problem but penalises innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:58 AM

DeG -

No comment on the Federal law, but I would suspect it might have inspired the overdue change to Kansas law that was reported:

[quoted in part]

Monday, April 5, 2010
The Wichita Eagle

The state government has upheld Kansans' right to keep and bear pocketknives that can be opened with one hand.

Gov. Mark Parkinson last week signed Senate Bill 497, which clarifies that assisted-opening knives, with blades of less than 4 inches, are not construed as deadly weapons under state law.

…

Assisted-opening knives have a stud on the blade which the user pushes with a thumb to open the knife. Once the blade is open about a fourth of the way, a mechanism within the knife opens it the rest of the way, Rankin said.

They're useful for tasks that require holding something with one hand while opening the knife with the other, such as cutting a fishing line while holding onto a pole or net, he said.

…

In addition to switchblades, the new law keeps in place the current ban on bludgeons, sandclubs, metal knuckles, throwing stars, daggers, dirks, billy clubs, blackjacks, slungshots (a rope with a weighted end) and straight-edged razors.

[End quotes]

(Apparently the couple of sheep herders in the area who favor bolos over lariats remain at risk.?)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Seayaker
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 06:35 AM

Thanks for your back groun to that D.e.G. I echo your last comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 06:37 AM

IF you choose to drive a car and fall foul of an Over Zealous policeman who WANTS to clock an arrest , he can ALWAYS find cause .

In the case mentioned . Drink Drive was a No No , so something else was found !

And ANY kind of bladed device will NOT be permitted as carry on on ANY flight I have taken since 9/11 , including VERY small scissors !

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 06:46 AM

Believe it or not I inadvertantly carried a blade onto a flight to Mexico last year! It was in my hand luggage which also happens to be the small daysack I use for hiking. In one of the pouches was one of those combined knife, fork and spoon gizmos. I only found it when I emptied it in the hotel in Mexico!

So much for security:-(

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:44 AM

A car is probably the most dangerous weapon of all, if that's how you plan to use it. If someone can't be trusted with a pen-knife, they certainly shouldn't be trusted with a car.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:48 AM

Actually, small scissors are allowed, as long as they are blunt-ended. On the other hand, herself's 12 inch, pointed, metal knitting needles are ion the OK list (US rules).

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:01 AM

My Leatherman is the only knife I have which is not a fixed blade or a lockback. Several times in the past I've had the blade of a non-locking pocketknife close over the backs of my fingers when I was using it -- adding a touch of flavor to the food, but I really hate to see my blood leaking out.

We were flying from Edinburgh to Dublin when the security officer found my wife's 2" bladed lockback knife (used for cutting food, string, etc.). He was in quite a dilemma: "Ach, these are illegal in the UK," he said. "But you're leaving. But they're illegal here...ach, hell, let the Irish deal with it" and we boarded without problem.

This would also ban the French pocket knife -- that one you twist a ring to lock the blade in place.

Truthfully, the word "stupid" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: open mike
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 12:05 PM

ach..those dangerous apple slicers...can't be too careful!!

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 02:34 PM

Pretty clearly incompetent magistrates must have been involved in this case, as well as stupid police.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:02 PM

Stupid police?
Never, surely not.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:18 PM

Never use a knife with a non-locking blade for anything more strenuous than cutting soft cheese. If you like the back of your fingers.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:47 PM

Amen to that, Mousethief! I'll use one only if I have no choice -- and yes, I have one of the "assisted opening" knives. Push the safety button to "open" and flick the stud on the blade with your thumb and the blade opens in a flash -- right handy when I'm trying to hold something large or have my left hand otherwise engaged (keep it clean here!) and have to use a blade. NOT a switchblade -- I know, as my little brother HAS two switchblades.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 04:05 PM

Magistrates are supposed to be instructed as to the law by the clerk of the court.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 04:46 PM

If the clerk of the court advised them that possessing a Swiss army knife is a criminal offence, there's another incompetent - and if the magistrates failed to recognise that any such guidance was unreliable, they shouldn't be magistrates.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:25 PM

Blades much smaller than 3" can be confiscated by airlines.

I lost a "baby" Swiss Army knife (pictured here) that way 2 months ago. It had a blade less than 1½ inches long.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:39 PM

Airlines, apparently, can confiscate anything that might be described as a knife or a tool. Maybe they don't have a legal right to, but they do anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Kampervan
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 05:48 PM

I think that most people know that any sort of blade is going to be confiscated if you try to take it on board an aeroplane. Those are the rules and that's that.

But my concern is that, on the face of it, this guy (see the original posting) was carrying a knife that doesn't contravene the U.K. definition of an offensive weapon. So why was he found guilty?

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 06:59 PM

Airlines, at least in the US, don't confiscate anything. That is the mission of the minions of the Transportation Security Administration. Their list of prohibited items just says "knives", with no other explanation or description - but I was surprised to see that pointy-ended scissors are now ok, if 4 inches or less long. Oh yeah...cricket bats are also banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:15 PM

I've wondered about the charges I'd get if a bloody-minded policeman wanted to 'get' me. I only have a leatherman in the car, but a jack-handle would be a nasty weapon.
In the van, I'd be gone for a burton. Knives and general woodworking tools, links of spanners/wrenches that could be used a nunchuks, chainsaw, several battery drills, bricklayers tools, I even wear steel-toecap boots.
It has never happened. But policeman (and my customer's neighbours) regularly look through the windows when I'm parked in a driveway, presumably to see if it looks like a burglars/housebreakers vehicle. It doesn't. Chock-full of tools.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: bubblyrat
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:20 PM

I carry a "Leatherman" on a daily basis,and would not want to be without it,as it is SO useful. I have yet to be stopped by the Police,if only because ,where I live,one never sees them,or not on the streets,anyway.
    I did,however,have a TINY ,Chinese -made cheap,sub-three-inch blade lock-knife confiscated by some VERY agitated Gendarmes ,after setting off the metal -detector whilst boarding a Eurostar train in Lille,France,in about 1997 : boy,were those Frogs jumpy !!
      Of course,the regulations on knives only apply to Law Abiding Citizens in the UK -----No such restrictions apply to criminals,who may carry guns,knives,whatever they want, in Great Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 09:55 PM

Once, I inadvertently carried a folding, Uncle Henry Bearpaw lockback into a courthouse in Brooklyn. As I did not wish to be harassed, I attempted to check it rather than have it id'd as a weapon. [I had modified the blade to bring it under 3", with a tanto tip.] It was confiscated anyway as I had lubed the mechanism so well that it could be opened one handed when the lock was free. They called it a gravity knife and confiscated it on those terms. I believe one of the court officers wanted it for his own.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:26 PM

"They called it a gravity knife and confiscated it on those terms. I believe one of the court officers wanted it for his own."

I've always said that if a Govt Official confiscates something, then you get a receipt, and later you get paid for a replacement, or the original back. Seem to remember Magna Carta had thoughts on those lines...

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 12:38 AM

I was told that the only receipt I could get was a summons for carrying an illegal weapon. As I was having other legal problems at the time, it seemed better to let it go. As much as I liked my knife, it was only a thing and replaceable.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Ralphie
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 06:41 AM

I loved the quote above stating it was legal to carry a particular knife unless the intention was to use it nefarious!
Reminds me of the US Visa question.
Q. On your trip to the USA, do you intend to overthrow the American Government?
A. Sole purpose of visit....
I've often wondered if anybody answered in such a fashion!

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:00 AM

I recall awhile back, the FBI issued a warning about a butane lighter being sold, with an extending knife inside.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:15 PM

Never use a knife with a non-locking blade for anything more strenuous than cutting soft cheese. If you like the back of your fingers.

I don't understand that argument at all. I'd use my Swiss Army knifes to cut anything even as hard as wood. The blades open only up to 180 degrees of angle. There is no way the blade could ever come on the back of my fingers when I cut. All blades in that knife only have one sharp side. However, if someone tried to cut with the back of the blade which isn't a good idea for another reason too, she possibly could cut the back of her fingers.

The locking function would only be needed if a knife is used for stabbing. In that case the Swiss Army Knife is a bad choice which could hurt the stabber and not only the person on the receiving end. Stabbee?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:19 PM

Knives can turn.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 03:02 PM

so... I can't take a kitchen knife on a picnic in the cool box? Or can I? What if I keep it in the boot?

Did you know that if you break a CD in half you can use the sharp edge to slit someone's throat? But you are still permitted to take CDs on planes.

I do bead craft and I have taken a tiny pair of scissors (blades about 1 inch long and uselessly blunt) on flights. I am sure if they had bothered to notice the coiled up wire should have raised some eyebrows. In xray should have looked like bomb or paraphernalia for making one.    I had more trouble getting Marks & Spencer's Belgian chocolate coated peanuts through US customs than I had with my little craft kit going either direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 08:38 PM

Reminds me of the US Visa question.
Q. On your trip to the USA, do you intend to overthrow the American Government?
A. Sole purpose of visit....

Which reminds me of the time I accompanied my (then) spouse on her Study Leave to the US. We landed at Honolulu (to present papers at the AIBS Conference) and the rather officious Immigration Officer lady asked "Do you intend to migrate to the US?"

She was rather taken aback by my reply "Not bloody likely!"

But, on the matter of blades, I've routinely carried a #22 scalpel blade (in its sterile sealed pack) in a notebook that I keep on my person (it's a long story why) but I forget how many Xrayed security checks I'd been through before I remembered it was there and that I was technically in breach. Perhaps they were distracted by the Xrayed innards of a concertina that usually came through on the same tray.

The little lockable pocket knife (7cm - 2 3/4" blade) I routinely have on the belt is one of my "tools of trade" so I have no concerns about it. Even so, I'd remove it if I were to walk down George St (in Sydney) of an evening, just in case.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: IanC
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:45 AM

As far as I'm aware, the current UK law on the subject is as follows.

Source: Criminal Justice Act, 1988. Section 139(1).

Offence: It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:08 PM

Sharply pointed? So, if you buy a butcher's joint with some skewers in it and carry it home with your shopping, are you a criminal? And what is the butcher's legal position? And is his shop a 'public place'?

Aaaaa-rrrr-ggghhhh!!!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:42 PM

I guess that herself had better not plan on knitting if we ever get to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: GUEST,rerbert
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:19 PM

"Did you know that if you break a CD in half you can use the sharp edge to slit someone's throat? But you are still permitted to take CDs on planes."

.. its even possible to swiftly kill a person outright with a rolled up magazine..

let alone the serious injuries you could cause with a mic stand or guitar neck..

I've always carried a mini swiss army knife in my pocket or rucksack for over 30 years..

Ludicrous inflexible over-application of otherwise well intended laws..

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:14 PM

The law is an ass.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: Big Phil
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:19 PM

The law is an ass.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:27 PM

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 'rerbert' is me !!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:52 PM

I believe the correct quote is: The law is a ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Swiss army knife
From: GUEST,Bert Van Dyke
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 08:53 PM

Nah mate me old sparra cor blimey luv a duck apples n pears, its 'Arse'