the uk folkscene and sex changes

Subject: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 08:26 AM

in recent years a few professional male folk performers have had sex changes.
I am curious as to whether their sex change has prejudiced their abilty to get work,as there are a number of uk folk club organisers on this forum ,I wondered what the views of other people were.
logically there should be no reason why folk performers who have had a sex change should not be booked unless[possibly] their voices changed dramatically,but is there a prejudice against sex change folk performers?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Morris-ey
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 08:49 AM

Who are these performers?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 08:51 AM

Is   there is an emergence of 'Fanny Miles' on the cards?



(Sorry, I'll get my coat now)

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 08:55 AM

Of course there is a conspiracy against sex change male folk singers. There's one about any subject of paranoia you wish to dream up.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:01 AM

I can think of several reasons for allowing this thread to die quietly. Most involving the word privacy.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:05 AM

Ditto!!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:13 AM

I agree with Greta Stevens and Mrs Happy... ditto!   Best wishes... Elizabethansilver!!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: treewind
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:14 AM

"Is   there is an emergence of 'Fanny Miles' on the cards?"

Looks like a joke, but unless there was some serious intent of that kind (unlikely I should think), The matter is absolutely none of Dick's business, and none of the rest of us either. There are places on the internet for such public prurience, but this ain't one of them.

And what Greg said...

Anahata

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:49 AM

I asked a serious question ,is there a prejudice against performers who have had a sex change,that has nothing to do with privacy.
sex changes are part of 21st century life it is something that has happened on the uk folk scene,it is therefore worth discussing,without mentioning names,please note I have not mentioned names,neither do I think it proper that names should be mentioned.
so can we discuss this:
is there a prejudice against performers who have had a sex change ,and does it affect or will it affect their ability to get work.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:03 AM

Fanny Hill?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:07 AM

The mention of privacy is interesting.
if someone has a sex change presumably they feel happier about their new gender,if they perform in public after having a sex change they are presumably happy about letting the public know they have had a sex change,and are now happier about being a woman rather than a man,or vice versa.
So what all this crap about prurience?.
But how does the public perceive the change and does it or will it affect their abilty to draw people into a folk club or festival.
I know these are difficult questions but is there any point in not discussing it,is there any point brushing it under the carpet and pretending it is not happening,bearing in mind that if a person has done this they wish it to be publicly known they have done so.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:33 AM

Dick - IF you know any performer who your question applies to I suggest you contact them direct , THEN and only if they agree , raise the matter here if there IS any such prejudice !

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,johnp
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:37 AM

If you know of such performers why not ask them in private as to whether they feel they are discriminated against or not. It really seems an odd subject for an online public discussion.
johnp

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:03 AM

an odd subject?
sex changes are part of 21st century life,they are however relatively recent,so like anything that is different,they are going to take quite a time before they are accepted as everyday occurrences.
My original question was adressed to [amongst others] folk club organisers,I agree I was being unduly optimistic in thinking that anyone would answer my question,or that people might read my post carefully.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM

I know of one female-to-male sex change singer/songwriter, extremely low-profile both before and after and not trying to make a full-time job of it. Prejudice not very relevant there. I find him just plain boring, but the gender issues have nothing to do with it.

The case Dick may be thinking of is one of the singers in an Irish musical/comedy trio, Fascinating Aida. It was news for a short while (ten years ago?) when it came out that she'd started life as a man. I've never seen them or followed their career in any way, so I've no idea what effect the revelation had. At any rate, they were neither from the UK nor a folk act (on anybody's definition).

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM

Dick, I was told you put on a good evening last Thursday at Maidenhead Folk Club.
I did not ask the person who told me this whether you are male or female, or neither, nor did I ask them if your name really is Dick Miles, or if it's a nickname.
I did however express surprise that you had done so, as judging from some of your posts on this site, I would not personally attend a club to hear you perform.
I would respectfully suggest that I may not be the only person judging you by your on-line persona.
This thread isn't going to swell your audience either.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:14 AM

Looks like a joke,

And it was, I thought it was an odd question to ask.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:29 AM

Prejudice thrives in secrecy. If people don't talk about it, it doesn't exist in the 'normal' world and the possibility of outing a person can inspire fear. Obviously, the possibility of discussing controversial subjects can inspire fear, too.

A sex change/gender re-assignment is not something that will go unnoticed, if it does get talked about only in private.

From the number of people announcing how uncomfortable it makes them feel, I'd say the transformation AND those who've gone through it are taboo and folks would rather pretend they didn't exist.

Secrecy/taboos = power.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Continutiy Jones
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:34 AM

Is the answer 'everything'? As in,

the uk folkscene and sex changes everything

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:51 AM

"From the number of people announcing how uncomfortable it makes them feel, I'd say the transformation AND those who've gone through it are taboo and folks would rather pretend they didn't exist."

I don't think anyone has said it makes them feel uncomfortable. People have said they wish to respect others' privacy. I saw someone's gender reassignment referred to in a CD review recently, and I thought it was crass and unnecessary.

If people who have been through gender reassignment wish to talk about their experiences here, great, but there is danger of such a thread simply becoming the repository for salacious rumour and gossip.

In response to the original post, as an organiser I certainly would not be put off booking anyone because of their sexuality or transgender issues. If anything, I would be very proud to promote someone who has taken such a brave step in order to live their life openly and honestly.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:57 AM

I cannot understand the reason behind asking such a question, other than idle curiosity.

If any performers have suffered discrimination because of this, it is very likely unlawful. Even if it is not actually illegal, it is unlikely that any folk club organisers are likely to admit to it in public, and certainly not in this forum since it is probable that most Mudcatters would find such discrimination unacceptable. Anyone else's opinion, apart from the musicians themselves, is simply speculation.

If Dick has good reasons for asking this question, then he should contact those performers privately. If this uncovers evidence of discrimination then that might be a valid subject for discussion. I don't think the question Dick asked is.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Maryrrf
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:05 PM

I know someone involved in folk music who had a sex change. This person didn't make an issue of it, just quietly started back teaching and performing. As the person in question is a very good musician who puts on a great show there were no problems and as far as I can tell no predjudice. This is in the US, but I would imagine it would be the same in the UK. Sex changes have been going on for a long time now (wasn't Christine Jorgensen back in the sixties?) and I'd wager most of us know someone(even if it's a 'friend of a friend of a friend')who has had one. I'd say it would likely be a non issue nowadays after. Personally I agree with Ruth, I'd be proud to promote someone who had the courage to go through with such a drastic life change.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM

other than purient curiousity, like Howard I see no rhyme nor reason for the original question. Jonathan Ross would feel right at home here

BTNG

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Ralphie
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:34 PM

Dick. You are completeley out of order.
Who the Fuck cares.
I once thought you were an OK guy.
I've just changed my mind.
Now do us all a favour and sod off.
Ralph

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Continuity Jones
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:49 PM

Calm down Ralphie. Dick just asked a stupid question in a clumsy manner. If you've read enough of his posts you'll know written English isn't his strong point. You should try to be more forgiving of small errors like that, he clearly didn't mean any harm, was just being a bit thoughtless. If you've never done that you should be grateful and graceful with it.

Or is this brewing into a famous Mudcat witch hunt? Is it witch hunt time again?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:52 PM

The title of this thread can't but remind me of the old joke about the prize for an essay on The Elephant: to which a Frenchman contributed on the love life of the elephant, and an Englishman wrote of shooting elephants in Africa, and an American wrote of filming the elephant ~~ and an Irishman wrote an essay entitled The Elephant And Partition...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:54 PM

"I'd wager most of us know someone(even if it's a 'friend of a friend of a friend')who has had one."

Really? I must be leading a very sheltered life.

David E.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:14 PM

This thread is destined to run and run!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,The surgeon's knife
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:31 PM

Ignoring the pointlessness of this thread, I'd just like to state that it's physically and biologically impossible to change sex.

Whatever incisions or excisions are made to assist someone to change their gender identity, the chromosonal determinants that distinguish women from men remain fully in place and long may that remain the case.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:33 PM

And why should I care? It's not something I lose any sleep over.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:50 PM

I feel the need to add to the thread , but as it would involve private information I shall keep quiet ! I have already found that an anonymous posting gets me deleted INSTANTLY !!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:05 PM

cowardly guest surgeon's knife post is a load of bollox...

I doubt that performers who have had gender reassignment would publicly comment on whether or not the change has affected their hire-ability. What would be the point? If it has affected negatively they may think it just looks like they are playing a pity card which would draw unwanted attention. If it had not affected at all why tempt fate by drawing attention.

Sex change is not a problem or issue to my way of thinking. Just doesn't need to be thought about. Deal with the individual and their respective talent.

Now Species change as in Tone Deaf Leopard... that is something to talk about. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,The surgeon's knife
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:10 PM

I'm not being cowardly at all - just stumbled across this site and don't feel the need to join it, especially when its members include such ignoramuses as Good Soldier Schweik and VirginiaTam who clearly do not understand the fundamental difference between sex and gender.

What I wrote earlier is not a 'load of bollox', but an elucidation of the scientific impossibility of undergoing 'a sex change'.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:12 PM

"the chromosonal determinants that distinguish women from men remain fully in place"

And sometimes those chromosomes are *wrong* in relation to the actual gender of the person, just like other errors that can be common to biology.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Ralphie
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:16 PM

I'm quite calm Mr Jones.
I just find it appalling that such a question should even be posed nowadays.
Who cares about anybodys sexual orientation, and/or gender?
I would have thought that we would be beyond such school boy tittle tattle.
I'm astonished that Dick could even pose such a question, and I find it thoroughly distateful.
Apart from anything else, what has anybodys personal life got to do with their musical creativity?
I think Mr Miles might rue the day that he started this thread.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:19 PM

thank you Sister Crow. Xactly what I was thinking when I said "bollox" not to mention the pedantry of surgeon's assertion and implicit bigotry.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:23 PM

"just stumbled across this site"

So, presumably you must have just 'stumbled on this site' while Googling for "sex change" then. Interesting way to discover folk music anyway! Do stay and look around, there are lots of other threads not dedicated to transgender issues!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:30 PM

""I think Mr Miles might rue the day that he started this thread."


Could be Ralphie......could be.........


Spaw

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:41 PM

"the uk folkscene and sex changes"

It certainly does, but many traditionalists would deny it...

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:45 PM

Well, this isn't a topic that I'd initiate, but since it is already on the table... For those of you who know someone (a singer) who has gone through this process, and assuming that he/she included the hormone therapy often involved in a reassignment, did his/her voice sound significantly different/better/worse?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:45 PM

"It certainly does, but many traditionalists would deny it..."

Lol!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:51 PM

In my opinion,the only thing that is important[99.9 percent of the time] is the quality of the music of the performer.
I agree ,if anyone does anything in their private life which is harmless to anyone else it is not of importance.
however, if I knew that someone was for example a paedophile,I would have to admit my views would change.
there seems to be some misunderstanding as usual,I asked a question,I did not state an opinion.
I asked a question,is there a prejudice against performers who have changed sex?
so far only Ruth Archer,has answered .

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:59 PM

Pedantically speaking "gender" just means "kind". For example, one gender of musicians is folk musicians.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Continuity Jones
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 03:22 PM

I asked a question,is there a prejudice against performers who have changed sex?

Don't think so dick. I've played with two transgender (pronounced /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) people that I'm aware of in my time at the crease and there was never any prejudice towards them that I noticed. For the record, one was very good and one was fairly amateur, I don't think the amount of over enthusiastically applied make-up contributed towards either rating.



""I think Mr Miles might rue the day that he started this thread."

Hmm. Isn't Eastenders on? Or Dramarama?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 04:02 PM

I'm sorry but sex was defined by the United Nations Commission On Sexual Identity (UNCOSI) in 1954. We should not be pushed aside by the redefiners who wish to impose their own definitions on those of us who cling to the traditional values.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 04:09 PM

Before 1954 there was no sex? I wonder how my mum got here then.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 05:15 PM

It has to be tough to have a sex change and live in a community of people who are not transgender. Even people who want to be accepting, are bound to say things at times that are hurtful. I slipped and said "yes, sir" to a transgender woman once, and the person got angry at me. I hadn't meant any harm, but I was tired and off my guard. Was it a freudian slip, or what? Whatever the case, I said something unintentionally, and the other person was hurt. I suppose I could be condemned for being insensitive, but I had absolutely no intention do cause the hurt. I liked the person, and tried my best to treat her with respect and in a normal manner. But somehow, I slipped.

I think that if you're a minority in any environment, you need to have a protective attitude and a sense of humor. By a protective attitude, I mean that you need to make yourself less vulnerable by thinking that most people mean you well, so you need to accept what they say as something that's favorable to you - even if it could be taken as inimical. You can't expect people to say everything according to your specifications, or you're going to go through life being disappointed.

If you enter an environment with hostility, you are going to encounter hostility.

Does that make sense?

I see this demonstrated all the time at Mudcat. There are some people who come here expecting hostility, and they invariably encounter it. Other people sail through Mudcat without ever encountering a hostile word. If a transgender person wants to live in the wider world, I think that person needs to provide self-protection, by living without expecting hostility. If you go into an environment with the expectation that most people you encounter are wonderful, you will find that most people will treat you as a wonderful person yourself.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 05:17 PM

Well mouse, I think its like this...........

See, I was born in 1949 and I suppose my parents had intercourse for that to happen. But my question to you is, can you see your parents having intercourse? It may be difficult but you might be able to do it. On the other hand, how about this?

Man, I can just see the Ol' Man layin' the log to Mom......Whadda' righteous fuckin'....I tell you he was pounding her eyeballs out and Mom was screaming for more so she flipped and took it doggie style til Dad just collapsed.........and then you should have seen her licking his balls........

Can you see that? I think not! Before 1954 there was intercourse but no sex.


Spaw

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 05:22 PM

I am curious as to whether their sex change has prejudiced their abilty to get work

Not in the two cases I know, one of whom reported the opposite, initially - morbid curiosity, perhaps.

I'm quite sure it won't affect your popularity in the least, Dick. Follow your dream.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:22 PM

But what will we call him if he loses the Dick part?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gloria
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:48 PM

I personally dont find Dick's question offensive in any way.I perform a lot in a transgender role. i dont think there are many ts musicians on the folk circuit though - I only know one other, an old friend.
i first started playing openly in this role almost ten years ago, but I had no idea if it would work and it felt like a completely new field because I'm not a drag act,or comedy, and dont offer any explanation or apologies to an audience when I get up and play.Nor do I try and sing in a "feminine" voice.So at first I played open mikes and pubs.These,of course, can be quite challenging environments at the best of times, but anyway, I found that I was well received, so I then ventured into the more regular folk clubs, and I'm starting to get folk gigs in this persona( I've done loads of gigs in my former existence).i feel I'm starting again, to some extent, but thats sort of refreshing too.
A great many people on the folk scene have been wonderfully supportive,I've actually made a lot of new friends and I've been pleasantly surprised at the folk world's general niceness and ability to incorporate the slightly unusual! I dont particularly care for it either when people refer to me as "he", but I know they dont always know the appropriate way to address me, so I'm not annoyed by it.I was at Otley folk club a few weeks ago - did a solo spot,called "she",then got up again later with a few friends to do a band item and suddenly its "he" - weird!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:49 PM

'Tina?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Soldier boy
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:00 PM

Strange thread!

Someone here said that he/she would "wager that most of us know someone who has had one" (a sex change).
Certainly not in my experience in the UK.
I've only once in 25 years of attending folk festivals in the UK come across a transexual person (a 'he' dressed up as a 'she'; dressed outrageously as a 'diva' with high heels, big wig, tight dress, false breasts, make up you could scrape off with a pallet knife, big false eyelashes and cheap perfume that stunck the pub out). And that was in what is now The Station Tavern in Whitby during The Whitby Folk Week about 5 years ago and he/she had absolutely no contribution or involvement in the 'folk scene'.
And obviously I don't know if he had had a sex change but he still had a deep voice!

I must admit I felt a bit disgusted at the time, but only mainly because of his/her ourtageous appearance/behaviour/smell.
I don't give a jot about peoples sexual orientations or if they feel that they have been born in the wrong body or whatever. Good luck to them I say, but what I don't like is when they go really over the top and rub it in your face!

Anyway, what really troubles me here is why anyone should post this posting in the first place unless they have a very personal and intimate reason for doing so.
As has already been intimated, I suspect that Good Soldier Schweik (or Dick Miles, who some folk have mentioned) might have had a sex change already or may be on the cusp of doing so and is indeed concerened about the possible 'prejudices' against folk performers who have changed sex.

Don't worry about it Dick; but you are ordered to report to barracks at 07.00 hours tomorrow for a very detailed inspection.
Rubber gloves at the ready!
Perhaps you should change your name now....after all...'dick'... may no longer apply!!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 02:56 AM

As my profile picture in the Mudcat gallery shows, it's hard for many people in the folk world to make the change convincingly - or at least it is for the average Middle Bar Singer. Though the enthusiasm with which many would approach Women's Night leads me to believe that there could be many closet transgender types waiting to come out!
Seriously, however, the original question is an impertinent irrelevance on a public forum, and probably says more about the poster than the issue itself.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:00 AM

Dick, I'm sure you already know that the decision of a well-known professional UK folk artist to change gender many years ago resulted in the loss of her career.

Kitty

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:12 AM

"I must admit I felt a bit disgusted at the time, but only mainly because of his/her ourtageous appearance/behaviour/smell.
I don't give a jot about peoples sexual orientations or if they feel that they have been born in the wrong body or whatever. Good luck to them I say, but what I don't like is when they go really over the top and rub it in your face!"


Hmmmm...given that the folk world and festival scene often includes cross-dressing ceilidhs (especially if Tickled Pink are involved), adults running around dressed as fairies, morris sides in costumes ranging from the extravagant to the absurd (and makeup to match), various hobby horse creatures, rapper Tommies and Betties, etc...one would have hoped that people who choose to self-express in ways that are OTT and extravagant, regardless of their sexuality or sexual orientation, would find tolerance and acceptance amongst folkies.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 04:26 AM

Context

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: buddhuu
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 05:31 AM

The Surgeon's Knife fella is indeed talking crap.

Gender is a wider consideration than just chromosomal sex. In the context of chromosomes, sex is probably the better term to use.

Impossible to change sex? Well, that may not be what's being discussed. If, for example, a person is of the anomalous "XX male" type, then despite being chromasomally female, overall phenotype development would often suggest maleness to an observer.

In such cases, a "sex change" may be conducted in order to mitigate a bit of a biological admin error.

There are other chromosome karyotypes that can also muddy the water. "Sex" and "gender" are more complex issues than many even try to understand. Certainly more complex than the Surgeon's Knife would want us to believe.

I'm NO expert, just a bit of a lay geek with an interest in pop science - expecially evolution, genetics and astronomy.

At the end of the day, how the hell can any of us who are fortunate enough not to experience any significant complication of sex or gender identity hope to understand or judge the situations of those who do encounter difficulties.

Live and let live, for feck's sake.

Do these people encounter prejudice? Oh, come on. In a world as full of bigots as this one, of course they'll encounter prejudice. In many (not all) cases their careers may suffer through the bigotry and *phobia of promoters, record company execs, venue owners and organisers - even of the audience.

More power to those individuals who have the strength and good fortune to wring a positive outcome from it all.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 06:04 AM

"Context"

indeed, John. Context is important. In this case, a folkie went into a Whitby pub during folk week, as a guest in the town, and made a (not particularly nice) judgement about someone who, as it happens, drinks in that pub all year round. None of the locals are bothered - this is Whitby, after all: the town that has special dispensation for goths wearing hats in pubs. It's the nature of the place.

I'm not sure how simply living one's life is "rubbing it in (someone's) face", but given that The Station is this person's local, maybe the Soldier Boy ought to find somewhere else to drink in future when visiting the town.

Anyway, when it comes to context, it's not like morris dancing and other "eccentric" folkie behaviours are restricted to the confines of festival fields. I'm sure there are plenty of non-folkie people who see morris sides dancing out when the local festival is in town, and think they look right pillocks. Or would prefer their local not to be taken over by a hoard of strumming folkies. So if we expect tolerance for our community, perhaps we ought to extend a little, too.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Noreen
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 07:38 AM

buddhuu, you said exactly what I wanted to say, and said it better than I would have.

Thank you!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 08:49 AM

""the chromosonal determinants that distinguish women from men remain fully in place"

And sometimes those chromosomes are *wrong* in relation to the actual gender of the person, just like other errors that can be common to biology"

Maybe it's society's definition of gender that is wrong.
I wish we had some ungendered personal pronouns. Why do we need to know a baby's sex before we can say "aaah isn't he/she/it lovely".
I don't wear high heels or warpaint, but that doesn't make me a male. I see myself as a person, not a woman. So I find it hard to understand how some people can be so attached to the characature of the opposite gender that they want to change - though I accept that some do.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: G-Force
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM

So, what else did they define in 1954, apart from sex and folk that is?

Must have been a busy year.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: BTNG
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 12:25 PM

Clearly, GUEST,The surgeon's knife , was asleep during basic biology. There are species of frog and a species of fish both of which are capable of changing sex when the ratio of male to female or female to male is lesser or greater Frogs that change sex

However this should not to be confused with
Frog Sex

BTNG

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,The Surgeon's Knife
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 12:51 PM

Oddly enough, buddhuu, you're wrong on both counts. I'm a woman (a strong feminist too) and a biochemist with extensive research experience in my chosen field of work and author of a Master's thesis on a Foucaultian approach to ideological interpretations of sexuality.

Crow Sister, I found this site because I was looking for the lyrics to 'The Man Who Talks Trash Every Day', not some bozo with a sex-change fixation.

All I was trying to do, by responding to this thread, was to point out a few commonly made misinterpretations.

I'll accept that in the very rare cases where the sexual characteristics of a neonate are atypical or ambiguous that decisions are made (usually by parents) to divert androgyny into one of the two biologically defined sexes. However, there are others, such as Organisation Intersex International, who take a laudably alternative approach.

When I wrote this - 'Whatever incisions or excisions are made to assist someone to change their gender identity, the chromosonal determinants that distinguish women from men remain fully in place and long may that remain the case.' - it was probably the last few words that provoked a knee-jerk reaction. I was making the point that I am firmly opposed to all forms of chromosomal manipulation, not attempting to sanction an eternal division of the sexes. I was also simply avowing that bodily alterations do not change a person's inherent sexual characteristics.

As far as I'm concerned gender identity is not essentially a function of karyotypes or ploidy, but largely formed by social development. In other words, I'm fully on the nurture side of the debate and see sexuality as a sliding scale from complete macho (think Bruce Willis with a hangover) to Dickens' stereotypical Dora Spenlow. I'd like to think we make our own choices within that spectrum, but too many of us, as this debate indicates, are hidebound by our social development.

So, have I seen a folk singer who has chosen a gender role different to her/his biologically defined (or confused) physical characteristics? I don't know and, fundamentally, I don't care.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 01:02 PM

Now THAT is a clarification that some who posted above need to read 3-4 times. The distinction between operative concepts of sexual re-definition and biologically precise concepts are quite important.

Some things can be changed... some cannot. If a person can be happier with certain cosmetic/surgical changes, it makes little difference to me. (I personally have known two cases.....that I am aware of)

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Tyke
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 01:16 PM

Will having a sex change help or hinder you getting gigs? You should ask someone who has already decided to change his or her gender Dick. A decision which I would think had nothing to do with getting bookings. I suggest that speaking to someone in an effort to understand his or her reasons for a change of gender might be a better way for you to find empathy and understanding.

However I can quote a comment from one person who had just started the transgender process. He at the time new that the female hormones had kicked in when his driving skills started to improved.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 01:20 PM

But he still can't put the toilet seat down.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 02:04 PM

In my opinion,the only thing that is important[99.9 percent of the time] is the quality of the music of the performer.
I agree ,if anyone does anything in their private life or public life which is harmless to anyone else it is not of importance.
That is my opinion.
It would be much more positive if people showed their support for transsexuals,instead of making jokes at my expense,or publicly insulting me and telling me to sod off,or suggesting that they would not attend my gigs,because I raised this issue.,or stating that the question is inane
I am not intending to have a sex change[as has been suggested]but if I was it should not be treated as a crass joke.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:40 PM

No. Not the anon who writes all those wonderful songs and poems we all love. The anon who has to be this way because of fear but who really wishes to make a contribution to this thread. I hope Joe can find some way to post this onto the thread and allow it to stay as I am obviously not logged in. I fear the bullying that has occurred on other sites that has lead to me leaving. It is not just me who gets bullied though. Those that are seen as my friends also get tarred. I happen to think that Catters wouold not allow it but it is best if it does not start to begin with.

Joe, and many of the others here, has shown the compassion and attitude that I have been so lucky to get from the majority of those I have encountered on the folk scene and in the clubs. Yes: I am "one of them"!

I have no wish to be in anyone's face or to be 'flying the trans flag' on the site. I am only an expert on one thing in this area. Me. Being transsexual is different for everyone, just like being who you are is different from being anyone else.

I am not that 'convincing' as a female in looks. I am not pretty. My voice is still deep too, sadly. No amount of hormones will change that for me. Whether the surgeon's knife changed my gender or not does not really affect me. It allowed me the chance to get my body some way toward being congruent to my mind. Nature or nurture? I have no idea. I am just me. Trying to integrate and have a 'normal' a life as possible. Whatever normal is supposed to be. We each have our own comfort zone for what consists being normal.

I have not come across any open discrimination against me in the clubs. I have been welcomed all over the place and felt included in all events. I have had the occasional bad comment from some drunken pratt in the bar who thought it clever to say something 'smart' (like I never heard it ever before). As far as 'folkies' go I have only ever been given affection and aencouragement to my face. I have made lots of friends and they have never been afraid to be seen with me. I am always welcomed to back to anywhere I have visited.

Many top singers have been more than kind to me, in advice and in songs, and my life is quite enhanced by people's acceptance. My obvious 'difference' seems to not matter to the mass of people. Not everyone agrees with what I have done/had done, or what they see me as, but they are in the minority.

George Papevgaris wrote a song about a transsexual's experience in the hospital. "Toni with an 'i'". I marvelled at it as he really seemed to be touching on something I have experienced in real life.

I have had to follow people onto stage that have sung one of the crossdresser/tranvestite type folk songs that cause such a giggle in many. In truth they are funny to most I know. It's hard to have to manage that aspect at times but manage I do. I usually use humour to get past the few moments that follow. Being angry at people for making genuine mistakes is not on. I get the 'he' and 'his' in people's conversations around me. I have to let it pass. Most do not do it maliciously and gender cueing can be ressponsible with no intent to hurt meant. One learns to live with it. You know when someone is being genuine or being an ass.

What my chromosomes are I have no idea. What does it feel like to be a woman? I have no idea either. I know what it feels like to be me (and that is not a man). Social construct? No idea again. All I know is what it feels like to be in my body and live this life. All I want to do is live that life and not upset anyone.

In folk music I have found a vent for all sorts of emotions. I have learned a great deal. I have made many good friends. My gender is important to me, I know, but I try not to make it affect others. I am lucky. I get to appreciate every day who and what I am. Yes, it could be easier, but it could also be a lot harder.

People should stop concerning themselves on how and why people like me live their lives. Just accept we are part of nature as anything else and get on with their own lives. Folk music has given me a great deal but, in the end analysis, it's the people in it that have made the difference.

""You're neither unnatural, nor abominable, nor mad; you're as much a part of what people call nature as anyone else; only you're unexplained as yet -- you've not got your niche in creation." Radclyffe Hall The Well of Loneliness, 1928"

Can someone try and find a way to keep this in the thread?

And to those here who have took the stand I have not the courage to make ___ Thank You

anon

---

Of course, this message can remain undeleted. We do make accommodations for anonymity when there is a compelling reason. Thank you for helping us to understand.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Continuity Jones
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:41 PM

Well said Dick. The childish snapping on this board is at best tolerable but on a serious subject like this it just paints certain members of the Mudcat community as nothing more than adolescent bullies rallying around in the school playground.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:59 PM

it was probably the last few words that provoked a knee-jerk reaction

Yes indeed it did provoke a reaction in me. Apologies for calling you cowardly and for accusing you of talking bollocks. I did infer a bigotry from the "long may it remain" statement. But I still think it was a bit pedantic to point out the obvious.

So Surgeon's knife... you were seeking song. You have educated well formed opinions. Why not join the forum properly. I promise we are not all ignoramuses all of the time. Some of us are some of the time (this is my group). A fair number of us are quite the opposite.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 05:10 PM

Just want to say thank you to guest anon. I for one hope your post is permitted to stay too.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 05:36 PM

I have known and worked with gay, lesbian and even a couple of transgender folk. I never felt it was my place to analyze someone else's private life. I didn't care one whit what they did in private. On the other hand, I just never saw the sense in making theater out of one's personal proclivities, which some are wont to do. Most were very decent people and in one specific case, very creative. If I hear someone's singing and happen to enjoy it, that's all that matters to me. If I hear you perform as Jane and I enjoy it, and later find that you were once Jerry, what does that have to do with the music?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: stallion
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 05:50 PM

I first thought I had nothing to offer this thread in that I have a very liberal outlook on life. There are some things that I am uncomfortable with but that is my problem and I deal with it, we are informed, from a very young age, of social norms and sometimes it is difficult to re educate yourself, I don't have a problem with strangers but one of my friends son had the gender re assignment op, I have known him since him he was born and try as i do to use her new identity I keep forgetting myself and using the name i had been using for twenty five years, it isn't intentional and i think he/she had a lot of courage to do it but I do get the impression that when I do slip up she thinks it's on purpose which it isn't. I think it needs a lot of re adjusting and it aint easy

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 06:02 PM

It can be harder on those around you than on you yourself. You have to cut people some slack to re-adjust. I have rights. So do they. I am the one living it every day. I do not live in a vacuum. My life has affected many people in very positive ways. But I also know some people were hurt because of some decisions I made and went through with.

My life, without thought for those around me, would be very much a sadder place. I give people time and space. For those who have only ever known me as female it is easier. For those, like my family, who knew me prior my gender realignment surgery, it has been harder for them to adapt.

You simply have to remember that not all who get it wrong mean it wrong. I know the difference between a mistake and maliciousness. Most folk do not deliberately hurt you. You have to keep that in mind too.

anon

(thanks Virginia Tam)

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 06:28 PM

I think Anon's posts are admirable. I am not favourably impressed by the visiting scalpel. It is universal to refer to a "sex-change operation" and to insist that it be given a different name is a pedantry to which even I will not rise.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 10 - 10:40 PM

I gotta hand it to you, Richard. Most of the time, you're a grumpy old battle-axe; but you have moments of charming self-deprecation.
[grin]
-Joe-

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: buddhuu
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 04:45 AM

Another thanks and respects to our anonymous Guest.

Good on ya. :-)

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:13 AM

Interestingly, Monash University appears to differ from our learned fly-by

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:10 AM

Thank you for your kind comments and respect. Thanks, Joe, for allowing the posts to stay. For some reason my first post came up with no text in it so here it is again.

If you take two axis and cross them, male/female and totally straight/totally gay, then we all sit somewhere within the confines of the areas made. Because everyone is so very different bilogically (even twins to a great degree) and have very different influences on their lives as they grow up, we are all so very finely individual. Transsexuality is formly fixed on the male/female axis, somewhere along it, though it does often get included within the sexualies of straight, gay male, gay woman. I think that is because, historically, the gay community have allowed us within it's ranks, so to speak, and because so many brave gay people took stands it all made it a little easier for people like me to survive. However. Transsexuality is most definitely about Gender and not about sexuality. All transsexuals have a sexuality like all other individuals.

I have read all the papers and books I can on the subject of transsexuality. Some I have agreed with. Some I have totally been against. Some just reflect the confused state of the research and many scientists mixed up thinking. Some are complete twaddle. The reality - of being transsexual and living as the gender you truly feel you are - can be very different from the writings of people whose only interest is from an experimental perspective. Being seens as some freak of nature is never helpful. I am just as individual as the next person and that is all that seperates us all.

I am not brave. It would have taken me bravery beyond heroism to carry on living as a man. I took my cowardly way out and chose to be the me I felt I was. It was selfish at times too. This is what I needed to do to feel whole. And now I can just get on with my life. It can be a hrash environment to live. Some people are cruel (though I reiterate that on the folk scene so far I have not been treated cruelly).

Fighting cancer is brave. Caring for someone with Altzeimers is brave and far more heroic than anything I have done. Losing a child and having to bury them is cruel. So many many things are far far worse than the life I have had and am living. It has taught me things I would have never known about nor encountered ever. I am lucky in so many ways.

I am blessed with those I have had in my life and those who are still in it. I am fortunate to have found out something about myself that had hindered me all my life, to get it corrected, and to now feel real contentment. Of course it could all be easier. But it will get there for those that follow because the more we all mix and it is talked about the more understanding there is. It is not really all that hard to understand. Just like or loathe the person for WHO they are, not WHAT they are.

If we ever meet out there just engage me as you would anyone else, or not. If my singing is cr*p, which I think it is anyway because my voice is not how I would like it to be, then tell me so. If you think I could improve by doing something with a song, tell me. Clap if you enjoy it. Just be yourselves around me and I will be myself around you.

I know what 'normal' feels like. I know what being treated 'normal' feels like. I still cannot define 'normal' but I sure know what it is. It's what all you make my life feel when you just treat me like anyone else.

I am not saying it's been easy. Nor that it is easy for others. But whose life is truly easy? I have a good life, I feel, and it is only good because of those in it. Welcome to my world... it's the same one you are in!

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gail
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:22 AM

GUEST Anon - if your singing really is c**p, maybe you could become a writer. Your posts on this thread have been a pleasure to read.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: buddhuu
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 09:22 AM

Yep, what Gail said...

Except, be a singer *and* a writer!

If Ronnie Drew, Tom Waits, Jimi Hendrix, Louis Armstrong, Bob Dylan and Neil Young can make a success of 'singing' with that array of gloriously individual voices that would scare the pants off a mainstream singing teacher, then there is hope for us all.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:16 AM

I am acquainted with one person who once male now passes as female but I don't know whether she has been surgically re-assigned. I only mention that in that surgery and large doses of hormones might I imagine change voice timbre.

She plays a lovely guitar (fitted with hipshots for speedy drops into Drop D, Double Drop D and DADGAD) quite well and has a wonderful speaking voice: so wonderful that before I knew the facts (or at least those of them that I do know) I asked her why, with such a lovely speaking voice, she did not sing. Well, I have now heard her sing, and her voice is not conventionally female, but not delivered as conventionally male either, and is very musical. Given the laws of supply and demand I don't know if she would "make it commercially" as a contemporary/traditionalstyle singer songwriter but she is plenty good enough for support slots and as likeable to listen to as many semiprofessional folkish singer/guitarists.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:34 AM

Why the hostility, irrelevance and dismissal evident in so many of the posts above? I can only conclude that the insulters and dismissers are finding it an uncomfortable topic, and so unthinkingly savaging the questioner and those who are expecting intelligent answers. Better not to post anything than force us to read their bile.

Not a very good advertisement for mudcat, which is ordinarily a more tolerant place!

The question at the top of this thread is not pointless, it's not theoretical, it's not prurient or any of the other names called above. It's a genuine topic of interest to quite a few people, even some of us who aren't considering a sex change.

Certainly any performer uncertain in her or his gender and wondering about the consequences for a performing career is entitled to a fair and thoughtful answer. Granted, that's a very small percentage of us. But not smaller than the percentage of interest in a good few other thread topics on this board.

Thanks to all who answered informatively and fairly. The others' poor excuses for posts only show up their own ignorance.

Bob

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:45 AM

Some interesting takes on this topic appear at

http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=132112#132112

where some of the posters appear to have been reading this thread and responding to it.

Bob

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:47 AM

Sadly, for male to female (M2F) hormones do very little to the voice. All the work has to be done in one's throat and head. You raise your voice into your head and take it out of the chest. For Female to Male (F2M) then the hormones do drop the voice, just as testosterone does to pubertal boys who were soprano.

All the work you can do with your voice to raise it (not falsetto as the stereotyped male to fe,ales are shown on television) takes considerable skill. In my case chronic sinuses have severely limited me, but very acceptable 'feminine voice characteristics' are achieved when medically able. Trying to sing, while sustaining that, is very hard and I suspect that is why the person you speak of Richard has a non convetional delivery. That said, many women I know have very low voices and some men quite high ones. They enter into a very androgenous area. As long as the voice is pleasing then it matters not to me. I envy those who can thus move their voices when singing too. I am never jealous though. I am pleased they are able to get where they want to be. It all adds to overall richness of sounds and some songs need very different deliveries.

Sometimes it can be really hard work being me and I am sure it is hard for others. With more acceptance and encouragement though, support and enthusiasm, it does get a lot easier. But that goes for singing generally don't you think? We all need the gentle prods and guiding. We all need the smiles and the encouragement. We need to know our songs are reaching out. One of the biggest thrills of singing publically is to be able to share. Not having an audience/like minded folk around would make it so less meaningful. It's also nice to listen too. We all have our hopes and aspirations, our dreams and ambitions. Some are lucky to get a good shot at them. Some manage to achieve them.

If my life has taught me anything it is: Never give up hope

To quote a well known song

"Fairy tales can come true, it can happen to you"

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: buddhuu
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 03:50 PM

I just realised in my clumsy (but well meant) post above all the examples of success with iffy voices are gents. Apologies. Most of the lady singers I am familiar with can actually carry a tune, unlike that list of geezers.

However, I am aware of female singers with fairly deep, even slightly masculine voices who have had great success. Not folkies particularly, but generally.

Alison Moyet comes to mind.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 04:34 PM

Worry yea not! I took the gist of what you meant and did not take it in any 'masculine type' way. I figured all you were doing was showing that some singers have made it big time even with 'flawed' voices?

Alison Moyet has a wonderful voice, of course, and I so love it. So do all the men you mention too.

I took no offence at all as none was intended

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,glueperson
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 04:40 PM

"Whether the surgeon's knife changed my gender or not does not really affect me. It allowed me the chance to get my body some way toward being congruent to my mind."

Which is all that matters.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:52 PM

Finally, a thread where I can talk about this. I was born on July 9---and when I was told I was a Cancer I hated the ominous sound of that.

So I had a sign change operation.

All is well now.

Art

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 08:07 AM

refresh.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Continuity Jones
Date: 06 May 10 - 08:22 AM

Nice one Dick, I was wondering where this had gone.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 01:18 PM

Thanks ,Bob Coltman,interesting comments at the cross dressers forum.
at this time [of a general election] in the uk,it is important to remember how relatively recent the womans right to vote is,and how much more difficult it is for women in most Muslim Countries.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Continuity Jones
Date: 06 May 10 - 02:14 PM

Yes and also to remember that although some women aren't good drivers it doesn't mean they are all bad drivers and thus should be banned outright or deported as has been suggested. I met a woman in the chip shop who drove for a living fancy that I bet she does a stirling job though and more power to her and her husband or huswomand if she's a woman's woman.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Anne Lister
Date: 06 May 10 - 03:55 PM

As long as we also remember that just because some men are bad drivers it doesn't mean that all men are bad drivers. Some can even read maps - just imagine! I met a man in Sainsbury's who drives for a living. Fancy that! I bet he does a reasonable job, even though he's not a woman.
Good grief - what a load of codswallop to be reading in the year 2010. Guest Continuity Jones, if your post was meant to be ironic it sadly missed the mark. Oh, and you also missed the possibility that the woman in the chip shop may have been happily single.
And yes, Dick, we have had the vote for less time than men, and it must be harder in some countries than others, but do we really need this kind of patronising drivel?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Continuity Jones
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:13 PM

Yes Dave I mean Dick I think you have to take that nail on the head I'm afraid I think Ms Lister is quite right and yes Ms Lister you are right once more there's the chance the woman in the chip shop may have been happily single but she was very pretty so I doubt it. Where did the Sainsbury's man drive btw (by the way) perhaps I have seen him up around these parts.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 06 May 10 - 05:57 PM

FWIW, (which isn't much) my take on the matter is that there are indeed truly gender displaced persons, and those persons will be able to live their new lives with a minimum of complications, hopefully.

Howsoever, even in the course of my relatively sheltered life, I cannot help having come in contact with some plug-ugly M/F "transgendered" persons, who have about the same chance of ever passing for female as I have for passing as Tommy Emmanuel.

These persons, I cannot help but feel, would benefit far more from the attentions of a kindly but firm psychiatrist rather than a ready and willing surgeon.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 06:47 PM

it is not patronising drivel,it is fact.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 May 10 - 06:51 PM

Is it true that in the UK all of the English Concertina players are transgendered or is that just a rumor?

Spaw

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 10 - 07:00 PM

rumour, is the correct spelling not rumor.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Gervase
Date: 06 May 10 - 07:06 PM

It's humor, Dick; just humor him.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 May 10 - 07:11 PM

Thanks for clearing that up. Just like a bad flavor in your mouth, that kind of thing can color your thinking and leave you in a poor humor.

Spaw

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 06 May 10 - 07:17 PM

If I may be so bold as to take some of the points that Murray makes (as I believe he is not being malicious in his writings but maybe is a little misguided about the psychiatric process). I am not singling him out in any way but he does raise issues that need addressing.

For general information therefore and certianly not in any attack on him:

I am not pretty. I consider myself ugly. But then I was not a 'hansome man' either. As a 'man' I was dysfunctional, deeply unhappy, typically gender dysphoric and often wanted to be dead. Once I started living as the female I consider I was/am, life became very difficult initially, but then I became so much more functional as a person, work and pay my taxes, engage mankind and womankind - society generally - and have a life I never knew I could manage.

The psychiatrists are there not to judge my attractiveness. Damn. If that was a criteria they would have put me down a long time ago. The two psyichiatric appraisals are to show your sanity (that there is not underlying pschotic illness that is leading you this way or that you are not a transvestite or suffering one of the paraphilias that could lead you to want to be female). Once your sanity is 'proven' only then will a surgeon even see you let alone do the surgery. Many people have plastic surgery and have no psychiatric appraisal or counselling. The psychiatric and counselling saide can be quite arbitrary and cruel. No woman or man has to go through such trials to have to prove who they are.

I'll be always be ugly. So what? Is that a crime? I still have to live and survive - the same as all other people - and at least being ugly gives me no pretentions that my life will ever be fully safe or easy. But then many women's lives are not safe and easy either. There is no easy route to being a woman. I had to 'earn' my rights. I do not think that gives me any monopoly on the genetic women who suffer in their lives. Our history (herstory) may differ, but our struggles are similar. Some men do not have it easy either, I know.

So, to try and tidy the 'ugly' argument up, it's not a criteria for being a man or a woman (thank heavens). I am happy for anyone who is better looking (about 99% of the population), can sing better, play better, and be better than I am.

I am just a woman with a slightly different past trying to make her way through a life I would have never managed as a man. I do not like being ugly but it is a fact of my life. It that offends anyone I can only apologise. You think I like seeing the lovely women around me in the world and give it no thought? I envy them as I do those with good voices. But I do noty begrudge them. It's not their fault they are pretty. It's not mine that I am ugly. I will not walk round with a brown paper bag on my head though!

Firm psychiatrists used to lock up girls who had the misfortune to get pregnant from an encounter with a man not too man years ago. Firm psychiatrists were plugging gay men into the mains less that 4 decades ago (aversion therapy) to 'cure' them. It's not a firm pschiatrist I need. I simply want to be able to live and breath in the world as you inhabit.

Once again I am NOT singling you out. You have probably just said what many may think. I hope the above addresses some of that faulty reasoning. I am keeping an eye to the thread and trying to respond to those posts that are not mocking. However, I stress, I can only speak for me and not for other women who have travelled this route.

For what it is worth I do know that most people do not deliberately say horrid or malicious things. They are simply ignorant, in the true sense of the word, and are maybe looking for explanations.

Forgive the length of this

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Emma B
Date: 06 May 10 - 07:46 PM

Thank you anon a courageous and, hopefully enlightening, post for some.

Please let this die Dick I honestly don't see who this really 'helps' apart from the prurient

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 06 May 10 - 07:58 PM

That is kind of you Emma but, in honesty, it is not really courageous.

Reading posts about people fighting cancer, losing loved ones, supporting those less fortunate, etc., I think them courageous.

Seriously I am nothing special whatsoever. The sooner that the mass of people see it as nothing special the better it would be for all sides. People have their bodies changed every day. They do it for all sorts of reasons but, mostly, just to feel better about themselves (though I am fully aware of those poor folk who have major burns and injury that need plastic/reconstructive surgery that is not elective).


The remarkable thing... isn't that they [stink bugs] put their tails up in the air - the really incredibly remarkable thing is that we find it remarkable. We have only ourselves to use as yardsticks. (John Steinbeck, Cannery Row)

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Emma B
Date: 06 May 10 - 08:02 PM

I take it back anon - courageous, modest and empathic.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 06 May 10 - 08:07 PM

Emma

I wish!

If I were nicer I could be a bitch



anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Emma B
Date: 06 May 10 - 08:09 PM

LOL - anon you are a woman after my own heart :)

add sense of humour (that's with a u folks) too :)

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 06 May 10 - 08:19 PM

I think it must be God with the sense of humour. First he created the Duck-billed Platypus and then he created me! How confusing that has been for science for so long! No wonder society has trouble with it as an issue.

In reality it's not important what, who or how I am. As I type this there are election results coming in that will change people's lives in the UK far more than anything I have done. People can ignore me. They will not be able to ignore changes that happen tonight. They really will affect us all.

[Totally said with no animosity to any religion, including atheism, or agnostics] The Platypus is far more beautiful than I lol

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Emma B
Date: 06 May 10 - 08:43 PM

a final thought

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:02 AM

I could never look that cute! No amount of money could make me pretty. As they say in the song "If": "If a face could launch a thousand ships (mine could sink a few)". lol

All I can ever do is to try and do justice to my gender. That starts with doing justice to me, which has felt quite selfish at times through decisions I have made, so that I could move forward and get on with doing what we all do. Live! I know some genetic women who are far more masculine than I am, or ever could be, but they are still women. See beyond my shell and you see the real me. I am forunate I do not have to look at me and others do. I truly wish I could just merge and not be seen when out and about. That will not happen. I spent far too long in the shadows and, whilst I have no wish to be in anyone's face, I do come out in daylight. Try not to begrudge me, and those like me, that. Just get on with your life and I'll get on with mine. Sorry about the face!

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:19 AM

anon,and gloria,
thankyou for contributing to this thread,I find changing sex a difficult concept to understand,but reading your posts is helping me.
I certainly do not begrudge you,and wish you happiness.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:45 AM

In honesty, Good Soldier Schweik, I think most people have a problem truly understanding the deeper aspects of gender dysphoria and the need to have your body changed to be congruent to how you feel you are. Obviously, for the majority of people, they are quite happy being the man or the woman they know they are. They may empathise with my situation but how could anyone not feeling the same truly know what it was like?

I have no idea what it is like to have cancer. I can empathise with those who do, but I cannot pretend to begin to understand exactly how it feels. That is why I say I can only comment on what it feels like to be me.

I have had men say to me "OMG! I would die if I had to have that done (have their willy removed)". Of course they would. They are men who need to be attached to their genitals. I could never understand why men were happy being men before all this came out in me. I always was flustered and confused by male bonding and 'boys being boys'. All that has gone for me now as I am in my right space.

Try to imagine getting up in a morning and each time you look at the mirror a stranger is staring back. Having to shave your face and hating every second of it as you get ready to spend the day living a lie and hiding the better side of you from everyone. Imagine not being able to be yourself and having to be what everyone one wanted you to be.

You are a man. Imagine having to dress every day and go out into the world and present as a woman - a woman everyone adores but whom you hate being - and still having to remain functional in your job and with your family and friends. In the end something would give.

I have so much respect for those transsexual people who do not do what I do. Those who stayed around and suffered for the sake of those around them. I was not that brave and I took a selfish route to 'become myself' so that then I could deliver what I needed to others. My love came with conditions therefore.

I am not proud of what I have done. I know I am not a bad person but I often do not feel I have been a good person either. I chose to be me over staying with the three people who loved me as I was. They loved me unconditionally.

All that aside. If you imagine the above happening to you then maybe it will give you some idea of some of the driving forces as to why I did what I have. I think most sane people would feel similar.

We all seek to escape lives that are bad for us. Some are lucky enough to be able to manage it. I do not feel cursed by what has happened to me. I actually feel blessed in many ways. My life has taught me far more about life generally than I ever would have experienced living as I was.

For what it is worth. One of those three people who stood by and supported me is now dead. She was a remarkable woman. If I manage to be 25% of the woman she was then I will be a great woman indeed. The other two are still in my life and still love me unconditionally. I can now love them so much easier than I used to. I can forget about me far more now and deal with other's issues rather than mine. I am now in my proper niche.

Regrets? I have a few. But, then again, too few to mention (lol)

I do not have a single regret I am who I am. I do regret that some got hurt in my process. I now work on trying to make that up to them. I also regret to find that I am capable of being so selfish too. It's not a trait I like. However, I have to be honest and take my life as it is, and that means accepting the 'bad' bits of me as well as the good. This is who I am.

Hope this helps a little bit more to put some perspective on it

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:49 AM

Here is a poem I wrote way back that may give some insights as to how my life was to me while transitioning and still not fully in my life:

What Cannot Be

The world around me is closing in
Because I choose to see through these eyes of mine
A world I want so much to be a part of
But probably never can be

I look out on a golden meadow
And see a world how it could be
In glorious sunshine and wonderful shades
Of life that never can be

Others think they know me well
They do not see this world as I do
If they knew all there was to tell
I doubt they would even want to know the truth

Yet I can still be the person they want to know
And I can do the things expected of me
But I have to keep myself hidden from view
They only see half and not what cannot be

Inside I am alive and well
I mould the world I need to live in
But remain, half exposed, so others never really get to know
They never get the best from what cannot be

I'm judged upon a standard set by others
They fit me into how they view the world
But just because they are the majority of people
I still remain secluded by what cannot be

Oh, I know, how difficult this double-act becomes
When I am both parts on the stage
But only one part of me gets applause
Its not the other part that cannot be

If people saw with open eyes
The real person that I am inside
Their and my world would be the richer for it
For they would meet what cannot be

**** (me)
26/3/2001

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: buddhuu
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:50 AM

Anon, cuteness of face is overrated. Any adult with more depth to them than a puddle of pee should have learned that cute doesn't come too near the top of the list of important stuff.

Ugly is as ugly does. Meanness of spirit is ugly, bigotry is ugly.

You may be no oil painting (me neither!) but, going by the calm, good-humoured and tolerant tone of what you've shared here, you certainly ain't ugly.

All the best to you.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gloria
Date: 07 May 10 - 09:55 AM

thanks Dick - i was beginning to think that I had achieved the status of complete invisibility there - like that sketch they had in the Fast Show where the woman is regarded,literally, as a nonentity by the lads.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Smedley
Date: 07 May 10 - 10:12 AM

Anon, thanks for taking the time, care and trouble to post here. I have no doubts that anyone who'd never really understood the complex and difficult issues you're talking about will learn much from what you've contributed.

One question I'd like to ask, however. Why is the issue of attractiveness so important to you now you've transitioned ? and did you care so much about your looks when you were still inhabiting your previous identity ? (that's two questions!)

The reason I ask is because some of what you've said could (no doubt unfairly) be interpreted as suggesting that it is somehow a woman's role and/or responsibilty to be 'pretty', much more than the issue of looks is ever seen as important for men. That, to my mind, is a rather conservative view of sexual politics.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 May 10 - 04:58 PM

Anon, you do indeed talk a lot of sense, and I wish you all the best.

The point which I was trying to make earlier is that it is easier for a nontransgendered male (such as I) to understand the transformation process when it involves a "male" who has quite obviously from birth been cast in the wrong body. I would cite April Ashley as a case in point. She was quite obviously destined to be a woman, and there is another famous transsexual (whose name escapes me) who was, obviously, a similar case. Stephanie something ?

What I do find difficult to understand is when a hitherto normal male, apparently happily married with two children, with broad shoulders, an Adams apple you could ski-jump off, and hands like shovels, suddenly announces to the world at large that from now on he doesn't wish to be called "Andrew" he is going to wear a dress and be known as "Andrea".

This isn't a figment of my imagination btw. This is a description of what has happened in a small Highland village recently, involving a public official, and it has caused no end of undercurrents in the local populace.

I just have difficulty understanding it, that's all. It's got nothing to do with cuteness, or attractiveness, it's just that I can understand that when nature goes wrong and sticks a pair of balls onto an otherwise female body, then the mistake has to be corrected. It's when there are no other signs of blurred gender that it becomes problematic for me, but as I said in my earlier post, what I think doesn't matter.

Anyway, I wish you every happiness in your new life.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,cg
Date: 07 May 10 - 06:19 PM

Murray, I think you are confusing gender dysphoria and intersex. Perhaps you could get a little more information before issuing instructions on how to live their lives to people you don't know with a condition you don't understand

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 07 May 10 - 06:49 PM

Smedley writes "One question I'd like to ask, however. Why is the issue of attractiveness so important to you now you've transitioned ? and did you care so much about your looks when you were still inhabiting your previous identity ? (that's two questions!)"

I brought attractiveness up because it was raised in the thread. The comment about being ugly and being better guided by a hard psychiatrist rather than a skilled surgeon. The point I was trying to address was that I was not good looking as a male either. Would that have meant I had no rights to be treated as a male? Thus. I am an ugly female. That's just tough really but I still need to be able to live.

For many 'transfolk' it is imperative they 'pass' in their acquired gender. I stopped worrying about it a long time. My physicality would give me away all the time that I had a different history than how I present myself now. So I just binned it and got on with having an 'ugly' life. Not being physically more femanine is certainly a drawback as it opens me to the ridicule of fools far more than if I looked more female. But we all have to suffer fools often, male and female, so why should I expect to be treated different? I would like to be prettier though, there is no doubt, but I have to work with what I have.

Murray again raises interesting points and issues. I cannot answer for the person he makes mention of. I can only answer for me. He could do worse than ask them how it happened if they are approachable.

As for me. Yes, I transitioned quite late. Many do as they try to adhere to societal 'norms' and stereotypes. Try to fit into what is expected of them as a man. In my case I knew something was very wrong but had no idea just what. I thought I was a freak and a pervert of some kind (many still do! lol). I really did try to be a good man. Beauty aside I am a lot better woman. Finally there comes a day when a threshold is reached and passed. The genie pops out of the bottle and, in my case, there was no putting her back. Here I am. Those that knew me beforehand and have stayed with me all say that this is me. They prefer me this way and can see how much happier I am and relaxed. My daughter prefers me this way too. I am, as I have said, blessed by those in my life.

My contributions to this thread are not in any way designed to get a sympathy vote. I merely want to try and explain some of the things that I know people may struggle with. It's not sympathy I need. Just be yourselves (though I appreciate the kind comments I admit).

*waves to gloria* Sorry. Way back I had missed you out somehow. Good luck to you too.

Anyone have any more glaring and honest questions then ask openly and I will try and answer openly.

Thanks again

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:02 PM

andddddddddd, I missed a bit.

No I did not care about how good I looked as a male. I never have been in the good looks brigade. Though, I confess, as a woman I wish I looked better in honesty. Anyway, I don't. It mattered not then but it does now. Makes no difference anyhow. I'm stuck with what I have.

If this helps at all. I would sooner be an ugly woman living the life I do than a handsome man who is rich with all the trappings of success. If I were a rich handsome man I would use the money to have the same surgery I have had plus have my face done too! I doubt I would stay in a male role for long.

This is who I am. This is me.

another poem

Crazy

Thoughts of turmoil sounding loud inside of my head
Wrestling upsets and confusions as I lie in bed
Inside out and outside in, thoughts rising up and down
Heart a pounding, racing ever more, but no-one hears a sound

My private world of chaos turning, turning every way
East and West, South and North, spinning every day
Try to grasp a single strand, one thing at a time
Deciphering all that's going on, within this world of mine

A messy whirlwind of increasing tides
Overhead and over sides
Where does it end? Where does it start?
Inside my head? Inside my heart?

Sounds of fear and of alarm
Will there be storms or there be calm?
Every day and every night
Have I got the strength to fight?

Sometimes it's all too much to take
But carry on I must, to make
A life where fears are overcome
To find a place I feel at home

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Smedley
Date: 08 May 10 - 02:53 AM

Thanks for responding anon - your honesty does you credit. As for the bigots, both in Mudcatworld & more widely, fuck 'em!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 08 May 10 - 05:59 AM

Am not sure the naming of anyone serves any purpose whatsoever other than to maybe make their lives that little bit more awkward with the idiots and fools out there that have their own issues.

If they choose to name themselves then that is different but no-one has the right to do it for them. Perhaps a certain post could 'go missing'?

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 02:07 PM

In answer to Dick's original post, yes. Gina Le Faux

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 May 10 - 02:47 PM

All the best of everything to you. That is my hope--and I am sure it is your own.

If my previous post was offensive to you, and I am certain it may have been, I am truly sorry for that. In the past, I've been known to think humor excuses all. To all of you here at Mudcat, I will strive to improve at this late date.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 09 May 10 - 04:13 PM

In my experience when folk come across something, new, novel, different or something they do not understand, they tend to do one of the following:

a) try to get to understand it better or find an explanation (the typical questioning mind who yearns for more knowledge)

or

b) make fun at it
c) denigrate or disparage it
d) hate it or try and harm it.

There are no names I can be called that I have not called myself at some point during my transition. Indeed I still do at times when I am less than pleased with how I look no matter how hard I have tried to just fit in.

Name calling from others often brings with it an amusement over their implied lack of intelligence. They will call you things and say things like they are being so original: like you have never had it said to you at least 100 times before. They will even pat themselves on the back for their ingenuity in being the first one ever to have insulted you that way. They are usually quite smug and, if the insult stops there and does not progress to worse abuse or even threat, one counts oneself lucky to be able to get away from such potential harm.

Coming across someone who has used humour in the arena, who has then gone on to think about it and update their ideas, and then apologise, is quite rare. It is also most welcome and refreshing. If only others could not be the same.

Self depracation is a way of life to me because it often breaks down attacks before they can begin. Truth is I believe half of what is said to me in insults as I often feel that way about myself in any case. That is why I need to merge and fade into the background and, yet, up I will get in a room full of people and sing a song I think they may enjoy. Hiding is quite contrary to engaging the world.

Do you think I may not be built quite right? lol

If that apology was in any way sent toward me it is completely accepted and appreciated. believe me, what you said was nothing close to what is often thrown out and intimiated.

Thank you

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 May 10 - 04:45 PM

Your posts do you credit, anon, who could help but be moved by your calm and dispassionate reasoning.

As I said before, I don't understand gender euphoria (or is it dysphoria, I forget ...) but I do fully grasp that there are female psyches trapped in male bodies and vice-versa. I also realise that in an ideal world, this would be corrected by elective surgery , hormone treatment, etc etc.

Howsoever, there is another side to the coin imo (in some cases, maybe not in yours ), but certainly in the case to which I alluded in my earlier post, which resulted in my being labelled a bigot, ( which I certainly am not).

The other factor is the effect which the transformation is likely (or certain) to have on other family members, and the degree of responsibility which one should assume, or disregard.

The public official to whom I alluded above has a young son who is still at school, plus two daughters who have left school and are at college. I cannot imagine the hell which the boy is going through at the moment at the hands of his school mates, and I can quite easily envisage a teenage suicide in the near future.

Can we say "selfish"?? Or can we not ?? You tell me.

It's kind of analogous imo to women who decide at the age of 65 that they want to have a baby and spend a fortune on IVF to satisfy their needs, with no thought for the fate of the poor mite who will have to endure a lifetime of ridicule.

It may well be that there are no similar circumstances in your case (I certainly hope not) but, in the same way that I can see where you are coming from, I hope that you can see where I am coming from.

As before, I wish you every happiness.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 10 - 04:45 PM

the uk folkscene and sex changes:

Change is a constant. I understand the folkscene changing, but sex--well, this world never ceases to amaze me.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:03 PM

When I was much younger, I knew a young man who committed suicide: he was a sensitive, artistic character, and from a stable family. He had girlfriends when at school, but increasing personal difficulties led him to take his own life in his early twenties.

Later, when I learned from a reliable source that he "felt like a woman in a man's body", it made a great deal of sense - as he always seemed exceedingly 'feminine' - but never camp or effeminate.

I still wish that I could have known him/her? better, and could have been a friend at a time of need.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:30 PM

Dick asked a question to start this thread and I answered him in one word, 'Yes' I am baffled as to why my post has been deleted.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Emma B
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:34 PM

I think maybe Gina there may be a suspicion that someone else is posting in your name
Thank you for clarifying for me earlier that the post did, in fact, come from you.

'Em'

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:48 PM

I tried to join Mudcat but I couldn't get the registration to work.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:49 PM

I was thinking of Gina when I posted on 22 April, but didn't want to say so in case she was unaware of this thread.

Kitty

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:59 PM

Thank you Kitty.
Gina

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:00 PM

Hi, Gina-
There's something wrong with our regular membership registration page. It IS working at our development Website, however - click the following link:
http://dev.mudcat.org/member/EntryForm.cfm

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:09 PM

Murray mentions "The other factor is the effect which the transformation is likely (or certain) to have on other family members, and the degree of responsibility which one should assume, or disregard."

I have already made mention that there were people in my life that were affected by decisions I made. I will never be free of guilt for having made those decisions and yet do I regreat who I am? No.

In my case I tried desperately hard to go through each step and not take the next without consulting those close to me that truly mattered. I was still selfish however. I do not live in a vacuum - none of us do - and our actions often have immedaite effects on others near by who have no choice in the matter. This is why when people say how proud I should be of what I have acheived I am always at pains to point out that pride is not the thing I feel the most of. I feel guilt and pain for those who got hurt by the flack I caused. I am fortuante. Those close to me stood by me and took what came but there are still 'protection' issues to many around me and I will defend their place asx best I can with safety in mind for them. Many of those no longer accept me for fear of what may happen in the future because of me. I accept the charge but also do more to save their position than I do my own. I am no 'nice person'. It is simply what they deserve for having once been attached to me through fault of birth.

I do not see you as a bigot. I think you have a genuine struggle to understand what it is makes some people go the 'whole hog', seemingly with no thought for those around them, and you search for answers. It is only what I did when I was going through the whole process. Gender counselling is quite bad. I wasa told many years ago to 'forget my family and move on' by the very team supposed to be helping me. I ignored their advice (demands) almsot to my peril. It took me 8 years to get through a system it takes 2 normally. It had to be done my way. Not theirs. It was/is my life. Not theirs. Some of the advice and demands they make are cruel and totally unreasonable. I fear some do it because they have to survive the system. I can only comment about me.

This has been easier for me than those around me. I have worked on keeping relationships alive that were being killed by my need to be able to live as who I am. I cut a balance. Many cannot manage it and some have the backs of loved ones turned against them too. But then people do that all the time to each other and their children. Broken homes, affairs, divorce and such all take their toll on children. It is them who need looking out for and often that means making a complete break for many.

I am not making any excuses for my selfishness nor the decisions I made. I take the whole responsibility for them and try even now to put things right I made wrong. Guilt is an every day thing of my life. So it should be. I deserve that and see it as my wages often.

I am sorry I happened to many of the people in my life. I am not sorry they happened to me. All I can do is try and limit the damage.

For many they would have been better off attending my funeral than having to know I was doing what I was doing and am what I am. But I also know well what suicide does to those left behind so that was not an option I could take even when I thought about it.

I have not been out all weekend. Between this thread and other things that have been said to me this weekend by various people I have felt quite overwhelmed by it all. The fact is that it all falls to the gender dysphoric person to sort it and deal with it all. It all falls on their shoulders when the real culprits for the damage, the fear and the hate are the bigots and the bullies. I do not have to be safe and careful for those I love because I am a woman. I have to do that because there are people out there who like judging, hurting and messing in others lives. They are the ones who caise the damage. But for now, until society changes fully, I will carry my share of the blame and guilt. After all. It is my decisions that have caused it to happen. QED It has to be my fault.

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:13 PM

And Gina's 02.07 post has been reinstated.

Kitty

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:15 PM

Dear Guest, anon:

Other people`s prejudices or `pet peeves` are NOT your fault. Don`t let that stuff get to your head. Even people who have lighter issues to deal with often feel as you do at times. Find it in your own heart to forgive yourself as you seem to forgive others. My best wishes to you.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:21 PM

Oh I'm okay. But thanks for your kind words.

It is hard to tell it as it is from my point without sounding like some badly done to victim. I don't mean to. I am not a victim. I am lucky. We all have our crosses to bear.

All I am saying is that sometimes it becomes a ginormous load to hold on your shoulders. I wish it had been easier for all - WAS easier for all involved - and, in time, thanks to frank and open discussions like this, it will get easier.

I am lucky I have such a good life. I constantly remind myself that too. I get to live as who I am, and apprecaite it, each day I breathe. Just sometimes it weighs heavy. I hold no monopoly on guilt or pain, I know it. It could be far worse.

anon

aka morose-bitch-at-times-but-often-quite-nice-to-know

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:44 PM

Guest anon, what's done is done and cannot be undone.

I do not know , and do not have the right to know, the exact details of your circumstances.

You are obviously under obligation to reveal such details, but what I will say is that if you were a parent while you underwent the change, and if your children were under school -leaving age, then I am sorry, I for one would say that there is no justification on earth for deciding to go through with the change, no matter what internal trauma you were experiencing.

If on the other hand you were not a parent, or if you waited until your children had left school, then good on you, I wish you all the best.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:46 PM

oh dear, that should read :

..."You are obviously under no obligation to reveal such details" ...

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:52 PM

To Murray MacLeod
Unless you know the full circumstances and the people concerned you cannot make fair judgements.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Noreen
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:54 PM

Dear anon,
We all have to make the best of what we are given in this life.

You have been given a far tougher hand to deal with than the vast majority of people.

You are dealing with it in the best way you can, taking into account the feelings of as many other people concerned as you can.

There is a limit to what any one person can do to make things right, however wonderful that person is.

It seems to me that you are doing a pretty good job in the circumstances, so go easy on yourself. :)

Love,
Noreen

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:56 PM

Gina:

no dependent children : thumbs up
dependent children : thumbs down

simples.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Noreen
Date: 09 May 10 - 06:57 PM

Would that the world were so simple, Murray!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 May 10 - 07:10 PM

the world is that simple , Noreen.

all I am saying is that if the overwhelming compulsion has been kept in abeyance for so long, then it can wait a couple more years before realisation, until the kids are out of the way.

they will still have to deal with it, of course, but at least outwith the unavoidable peer pressure of their schoolmates.

all of which may be (and I sincerely hope is) totally irrelevant to the case of Guest anon, of course.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 09 May 10 - 07:31 PM

No-one can ever say when this will overwhelm them and how long they can 'keep a lid on it' before it spills open. I was lucky. It came totally out after my daughter had finished school but there is a little granddaughter who has not had the life she would have had with her granddad because I took the path I did.

I see her. I 'male drag' to see her. But I do not see her as much as I would like nor spend the time with them I would wish to because of having to be as others need me to be for them whilst there.

I make no judgements at all for those who could not wait. I am not in their shoes and am grateful I am not. You would not sih it on anyone. But you should also not judge what they have had to do unless you have been there yourself. Even thn you can only judge yourself. It's really not so simple.

Die or live is all that is left for some.

I respects totally what you are saying about the ridicule for the children. Try not to blame the transperson for that though. It's the ones doing the bullying who are in the wrong. Sensure them. Please try not to judge that which you cannot have a clue about.

It's not simples at all sadly

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Dame Pattie Smith EPNS
Date: 09 May 10 - 08:15 PM

Hiya Gina, How you doing? I haven't seen you for quite a few years. Would you like to do a gig at Llantrisant Folk Club next year? Just email me at the address you know, it would be great to have you again, we can work something out. XX Pat

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 May 10 - 03:49 AM

I guess Pat's post answers Dick's original question, which has rather been forgotten in the way this thread has (rather interestingly) developed (which was not how I feared it might at first).

To Anon - don't be too hard on yourself. We all have to make choices in life, and sometimes these can hurt people close to us. Your choice was more difficult than most. Only you and the people close to you can judge.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: selby
Date: 10 May 10 - 05:31 AM

Does the question matter surely the person inside is a happier person
and the person you see is the person you always saw only in different plumage, if you where their friend then you will be their friend now if you admifed their skill then you will now etc.
At the end of the day booking for folk clubs is a lottery you can book acts that are deemed to be brilliant and nobody turns up or vica versa so to sum up enjoy life it is not a dress rehersal

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 May 10 - 06:34 AM

Murray's coments regarding parental responsibility dont take into account the Affect on Children of a parent having a complete breakdaown and possible suicide because of the mental strain of not being in the correct body !
When you see the change in someone whos has finaly reached the decision to go ahead with the change despite all the problems , it does make a difference .

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 10 May 10 - 10:40 AM

It's a hard one to deal with for sure. I am not sure how I would have been affected had it troubled me to insanity before my daughter had grown up. I do kmow that, even now, I feel terrible over the effects I have had on her and my granddaughter's life. They deserved to have better things happen to them. So did my wife.

I always tried to drive a balance between my progress and seeing they were okay. That was made easy for me in them supporting and understanding my transition and the need to be who I was. THAT is why I cannot comment on someone who has been totally rejected by their family and friends, thrown on a heap and left to rot. That was not my experience.

Suicide is often a quick solution that comes into your head. "People would be better off with me and would be able to move forward". It was not a true option for me though as I knew what my forced death would do to others. I resented having to 'stick around' at times, for them, not being able to be me and not being able to be there for them. I have searched the depths of my own despondency to try and find compromise. But I always erred on the side of my own self interests, making me more selfish than I ever wanted to be, knowing that if I could where I needed to be then I would be able to care for those others better somehow.

Strange thing really. I would lie down and die for my daughter and granddaughter. I would sawp places with my wife if she could come back healthy and be happy. Yet I could not live as a man for them. I would sooner be dead than living as a man. I cannot explain it. It is so deep within my soma I gave up years ago trying to fight it. I don't really need to understand it it either.

All I ever need do is ask me who I am. I am me. End of story. I am sorry that me was such a selfish being though. All I can do now is try and make things better for others because I now have the energy, means and need to do that. I am one of the lucky ones.

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 10 - 12:53 PM

Howard,
Pats post does not answer the question,Ginas response[imo does].

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 06:01 AM

We were just on the other day how all the transexuals (all of them male to female) we've ever known have been folkies - and the folk world accounts for maybe 20% at best of our overall social network.

No point, just a basic observance. People are free to do whatever they like as long as it's not depriving others of the right to do likewise.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 06:25 AM

I agree

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Michael
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 07:57 AM

It just goes to show that we are an accepting bunch.

Mike

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 07 May 17 - 04:09 PM

Having just found this thread via the 'Sexual/gender identity thread I need to add a few comments.
   Re gender dysphoria when a family is involved. we have to bear in mind that, for the older contributors here, marriage and family was an almost inevitably unavoidable concept when we were growing up. It was more or less hammered into us on a daily basis- this was our fate and compliance was expected of us. Add to that the almost petrified concepts of 'man', 'woman' and their roles back then and it doesn't surprise me that many of us reached 'The point of no return' much later in life and with the problems of family on our plates.(Luckily (hindsight), fate has seen to it that the various chalices of relationship, family etc. have passed me by.) Interestingly, when I finally came out, various friends said that they weren't surprised(!) which puzzled me a bit. How did I blow my cover?

   Imagine you've got to hold a large beach ball or a green physiotherapy ball under water. At the start, and for a good while it's easy but...then you start to tire and the ball starts to come up. So.you redouble your efforts and push it down again....and again you begin to tire. This goes on and on with ever shorter intervals until you eventually reach a point where you have to realise and accept that things can't go on like this and the problem has to be faced. Some of us bite on the bullet and adjust our lives, others will unfortunately choose suicide.

   There are quite a few transgender musicians in jazz and rock and there musical proficiency seems to be decisive although, in contrast to the 'folk scene' as members in bands they're less noticeable and there's usually a good few metres between the band and the audience anyway. In any case, at a rock gig the punters are too busy leaping about to question the gender of, say, the bassist. In the folk scene we're predominantly soloists and almost on top of the first row of the audience.

    And the folk club/ open mike evenings? Well, I'll have to bite on that bullet despite having to use 'his' voice. It's possible to adapt the speaking voice but the singing voice is another matter, as is anything involving being loud.

    It's a pity that Louisa Jo Killen is no longer with us as, if she'd been a Mudcatter, she could have reported 'from the front line' on her experiences as TG in the UK folk scene.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 17 - 05:48 PM

I have just reread all of this thread.
I stand by everything I said, I think it is an important subject and was worth discussing.
a touching contribution from anon,
LYYNH
there were comments from performers with first hand experience... Gina and gloria.
as usual there was abuse, and attempts to bully me, that sort of behaviour only reflects poorly on the people who poured out that bile

---

Sandman, post ONLY in your own name, do not post as a guest and speak for other members in their name. Your fake guest posts have been deleted.

---

There's some confusion, possible because a member posted with his real name as a guest.
Everything should be restored now. -Jerimod

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,guest Dick Miles
Date: 08 May 17 - 01:01 AM

One thing is made clear on this thread, it is possible to discuss particular and possibly taboo subjects and have a sensible discussion, if the people that post, read the original post carefully and avoid name calling.
The comments made by Peter Laban,Ralphie,JohnMackenzie, Gervase were unfortunately not of that quality.
important posts were
1.
Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 02:07 PM

In answer to Dick's original post, yes. Gina Le Faux .
2.
Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gloria
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:48 PM

I personally dont find Dick's question offensive in any way.I perform a lot in a transgender role.
3.
Finally I have witnessed prejudice against someone who had a sex change in a folk club by an organiser, the people shall remain name less, but it happened
until we can discuss the matter sensibly in public, changes of attitude will not happen, people will still snigger
people who make pathetic comments about my name or whether I am going to have a sex change or tell me to sod off or other such abuse need to think hard.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 08 May 17 - 04:19 AM

@Dick Miles: What was your posting that Gina and Gloria commented on? The only 'Dick Miles' posting I can find here is your actual one.

A problem for TGs in the UK is the gutter/red-top press, particularly the Daily Wail, which apparently has no qualms about hounding such people, even if the result is suicide. Not surprisingly this mentality rubs off on the readership in much the same way as, in the course of the Brexit 'vote', the vitriolic polemic spat out by the Wail and other rags was apparently understood by some as a call to abuse, and even kill, immigrants and an MP.

I should perhaps make clear that I live in Germany where TGs seem to be treated with far more respect than in the UK, although having said that, I'd definitely think twice about walking through urban districts with high immigrant, speak turkish and arabic, populations. However, being outside the UK doesn't mean that I'm not unaware of what's going on 'back home'.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 17 - 05:24 AM

ought to be compulsory - everyone using a loose leaf file to sing Streets of London should get their knob chopped off.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 08 May 17 - 02:01 PM

HEY!!! Not so fast!!! I thought I posted something here this morning!!! I am not, repeat NOT, some 'Sandman' alias. I am ME - Lynn H - OK?!!

As my deleted post pointed out, the gutter/red-top press in the UK, in particular The Daily Wail, seems to have it in for TGs. People have committed suicide because of the way they've been treated by the Wail. Looked at statistically there will be Wail readers in folk-club audiences and so, given the vitriolic attitudes of that rag, they will probably feel that hurling abuse at any TG singer who dares to get up on stage and open their mouth is Daily Wail approved behaviour. It would be interesting to know how club organisers react in such circumstances.

Here in Germany, with the probable exception of far rightwing rags, the general press attitude seems to be 'TG/LGBT? So what?', probably because a couple of print media owners have had to deal with this problem in their own families.

At the moment I've no idea when I'll make it back to the UK, if only for a visit. I can only hope that the folk-clubs will be welcoming. (And that's not taking the possible brexit fate of UK citizens on the European mainland into account!)

@Big Al Whittle: Since you've obviously got nothing even remotely intelligent to contribute to this serious topic - why don't you just go away and play with yourself??

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 17 - 02:13 PM

It isn't a "music" issues. So I am really npt sure what you are on about...

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 08 May 17 - 03:20 PM

It's a prevalent attitude found also in folk clubs and, as such, is a "music" issue. Some people lose gigs, others will be so baracked and abused that they can only perform their music under extreme difficulties. Here the subject is transgender but if you want to go back a few years you'll find that Janis Ian suffered similarly for her song "Society's Child".

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 17 - 05:48 PM

sorry to cause offence - but what exactly is the point of this thread?

the only transgender person i can think of - on the folkscene is the guy that used to call himself KIng George in Brownsville Banned, and I didn't even know he was still gigging....and of course famously Louis Killen.

I can think of clubs where any kind of nonconformity is barracked. i can think of clubs where the members are enlightened and tolerant.

if you're as bloody rude Lynn to the people you meet in English folk clubs - please don't blame it on your sexual identity.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 09 May 17 - 04:06 AM

I suppose that, at the end of the day, it's all about freedom to be who we are, and to accept that people are not standardised with an ISO spec. and that it takes all sorts to make the world. Or do we want a world where blinkered bigots rule the roost, where the folkscene is basically a closed shop open only to bonafide card-carrying heteros, possibly with the correct political allegiance as an additional limitation? I regard myself as a musician, the TG aspect is merely a quirk of fate which I have to deal with.

Al: if you're not really aware of any TG folkies then that's great! That's how it should be, in an ideal world we should be remembered for our music and not because we're somewhere on some LGBT scale, look like a double for Frankenstein's monster, or whatever. Then again, I can think of musicians who've lost bookings because of their political sympathies, real or imagined.

I'm only rude to those who I feel that, in a given situation, deserve it!

So, I'm off to adapt my repertoire to my changed circumstances, after all, standing on stage wearing a mini-skirt and belting out "Little Sally Racket" might be just a little incongruous!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 17 - 06:07 AM

by and large, i'd say folk clubs aren't great places to be rude and unpleasant - whatever you judge to be the provocation.

English folk clubs are places where you can piss people off without trying. well look at mudcat - foreigners are always leaping back in astonishment about how nasty we are with each other.

that said, i hope you find a friendly reception and have fun.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,guest sand man good soldier schweik dick mil
Date: 09 May 17 - 11:40 AM

Hopefully the above answers your question, if it does not go back and re read all the posts carefully.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 17 - 11:55 AM

"Then again, I can think of musicians who've lost bookings because of their political sympathies, real or imagined."
Myself included, for 30 years I could not get booked at a certain club because i had made a derogatory remark about mrs Thatcher,the organiser[who must have been a Thatcher supporter died] and i have played the club twice since.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 17 - 12:30 PM

This is just a rude rant, nowt to do with music.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 09 May 17 - 01:56 PM

I feel that there's rather more to music than just songs, tunes, bands, accompaniments etc. There is also 'ambience'. Do you want to sing and play your music in a club where you are accepted for what you are - a musician,- where you will perhaps be told that your rendition of Tam Lin was really great, or that the song you've just written is smashing and your guitar style is wonderful. Or would you prefer a club where loud-mouthed bigots try to dictate the music and try to shout you down because your politics are 'wrong', you're an immigrant or because their favourite 'newspaper' tells them that people of your sexuality/gender orientation are scum?

If you specifically want the music there is another thread to this topic.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 17 - 02:17 PM

i can't imagine anyone wanting to go to the second kind. are rhere such clubs?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 17 - 03:49 AM

." Do you want to sing and play your music in a club where you are accepted for what you are - a musician,- where you will perhaps be told that your rendition of Tam Lin was really great, or that the song you've just written is smashing and your guitar style is wonderful. Or would you prefer a club where loud-mouthed bigots try to dictate the music and try to shout you down because your politics are 'wrong', you're an immigrant or because their favourite 'newspaper' tells them that people of your sexuality/gender orientation are scum?"
I prefer to play in places where you are judged by your music, [are you listening John Mackenzie not judge by anything else including perceived on line persona.