the uk folkscene and sex changes

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 May 10 - 06:34 AM

Murray's coments regarding parental responsibility dont take into account the Affect on Children of a parent having a complete breakdaown and possible suicide because of the mental strain of not being in the correct body !
When you see the change in someone whos has finaly reached the decision to go ahead with the change despite all the problems , it does make a difference .

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 10 May 10 - 10:40 AM

It's a hard one to deal with for sure. I am not sure how I would have been affected had it troubled me to insanity before my daughter had grown up. I do kmow that, even now, I feel terrible over the effects I have had on her and my granddaughter's life. They deserved to have better things happen to them. So did my wife.

I always tried to drive a balance between my progress and seeing they were okay. That was made easy for me in them supporting and understanding my transition and the need to be who I was. THAT is why I cannot comment on someone who has been totally rejected by their family and friends, thrown on a heap and left to rot. That was not my experience.

Suicide is often a quick solution that comes into your head. "People would be better off with me and would be able to move forward". It was not a true option for me though as I knew what my forced death would do to others. I resented having to 'stick around' at times, for them, not being able to be me and not being able to be there for them. I have searched the depths of my own despondency to try and find compromise. But I always erred on the side of my own self interests, making me more selfish than I ever wanted to be, knowing that if I could where I needed to be then I would be able to care for those others better somehow.

Strange thing really. I would lie down and die for my daughter and granddaughter. I would sawp places with my wife if she could come back healthy and be happy. Yet I could not live as a man for them. I would sooner be dead than living as a man. I cannot explain it. It is so deep within my soma I gave up years ago trying to fight it. I don't really need to understand it it either.

All I ever need do is ask me who I am. I am me. End of story. I am sorry that me was such a selfish being though. All I can do now is try and make things better for others because I now have the energy, means and need to do that. I am one of the lucky ones.

anon

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 10 - 12:53 PM

Howard,
Pats post does not answer the question,Ginas response[imo does].

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 06:01 AM

We were just on the other day how all the transexuals (all of them male to female) we've ever known have been folkies - and the folk world accounts for maybe 20% at best of our overall social network.

No point, just a basic observance. People are free to do whatever they like as long as it's not depriving others of the right to do likewise.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 06:25 AM

I agree

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Michael
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 07:57 AM

It just goes to show that we are an accepting bunch.

Mike

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 07 May 17 - 04:09 PM

Having just found this thread via the 'Sexual/gender identity thread I need to add a few comments.
   Re gender dysphoria when a family is involved. we have to bear in mind that, for the older contributors here, marriage and family was an almost inevitably unavoidable concept when we were growing up. It was more or less hammered into us on a daily basis- this was our fate and compliance was expected of us. Add to that the almost petrified concepts of 'man', 'woman' and their roles back then and it doesn't surprise me that many of us reached 'The point of no return' much later in life and with the problems of family on our plates.(Luckily (hindsight), fate has seen to it that the various chalices of relationship, family etc. have passed me by.) Interestingly, when I finally came out, various friends said that they weren't surprised(!) which puzzled me a bit. How did I blow my cover?

   Imagine you've got to hold a large beach ball or a green physiotherapy ball under water. At the start, and for a good while it's easy but...then you start to tire and the ball starts to come up. So.you redouble your efforts and push it down again....and again you begin to tire. This goes on and on with ever shorter intervals until you eventually reach a point where you have to realise and accept that things can't go on like this and the problem has to be faced. Some of us bite on the bullet and adjust our lives, others will unfortunately choose suicide.

   There are quite a few transgender musicians in jazz and rock and there musical proficiency seems to be decisive although, in contrast to the 'folk scene' as members in bands they're less noticeable and there's usually a good few metres between the band and the audience anyway. In any case, at a rock gig the punters are too busy leaping about to question the gender of, say, the bassist. In the folk scene we're predominantly soloists and almost on top of the first row of the audience.

    And the folk club/ open mike evenings? Well, I'll have to bite on that bullet despite having to use 'his' voice. It's possible to adapt the speaking voice but the singing voice is another matter, as is anything involving being loud.

    It's a pity that Louisa Jo Killen is no longer with us as, if she'd been a Mudcatter, she could have reported 'from the front line' on her experiences as TG in the UK folk scene.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 17 - 05:48 PM

I have just reread all of this thread.
I stand by everything I said, I think it is an important subject and was worth discussing.
a touching contribution from anon,
LYYNH
there were comments from performers with first hand experience... Gina and gloria.
as usual there was abuse, and attempts to bully me, that sort of behaviour only reflects poorly on the people who poured out that bile

---

Sandman, post ONLY in your own name, do not post as a guest and speak for other members in their name. Your fake guest posts have been deleted.

---

There's some confusion, possible because a member posted with his real name as a guest.
Everything should be restored now. -Jerimod

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,guest Dick Miles
Date: 08 May 17 - 01:01 AM

One thing is made clear on this thread, it is possible to discuss particular and possibly taboo subjects and have a sensible discussion, if the people that post, read the original post carefully and avoid name calling.
The comments made by Peter Laban,Ralphie,JohnMackenzie, Gervase were unfortunately not of that quality.
important posts were
1.
Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gina Le Faux
Date: 09 May 10 - 02:07 PM

In answer to Dick's original post, yes. Gina Le Faux .
2.
Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Gloria
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:48 PM

I personally dont find Dick's question offensive in any way.I perform a lot in a transgender role.
3.
Finally I have witnessed prejudice against someone who had a sex change in a folk club by an organiser, the people shall remain name less, but it happened
until we can discuss the matter sensibly in public, changes of attitude will not happen, people will still snigger
people who make pathetic comments about my name or whether I am going to have a sex change or tell me to sod off or other such abuse need to think hard.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 08 May 17 - 04:19 AM

@Dick Miles: What was your posting that Gina and Gloria commented on? The only 'Dick Miles' posting I can find here is your actual one.

A problem for TGs in the UK is the gutter/red-top press, particularly the Daily Wail, which apparently has no qualms about hounding such people, even if the result is suicide. Not surprisingly this mentality rubs off on the readership in much the same way as, in the course of the Brexit 'vote', the vitriolic polemic spat out by the Wail and other rags was apparently understood by some as a call to abuse, and even kill, immigrants and an MP.

I should perhaps make clear that I live in Germany where TGs seem to be treated with far more respect than in the UK, although having said that, I'd definitely think twice about walking through urban districts with high immigrant, speak turkish and arabic, populations. However, being outside the UK doesn't mean that I'm not unaware of what's going on 'back home'.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 17 - 05:24 AM

ought to be compulsory - everyone using a loose leaf file to sing Streets of London should get their knob chopped off.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 08 May 17 - 02:01 PM

HEY!!! Not so fast!!! I thought I posted something here this morning!!! I am not, repeat NOT, some 'Sandman' alias. I am ME - Lynn H - OK?!!

As my deleted post pointed out, the gutter/red-top press in the UK, in particular The Daily Wail, seems to have it in for TGs. People have committed suicide because of the way they've been treated by the Wail. Looked at statistically there will be Wail readers in folk-club audiences and so, given the vitriolic attitudes of that rag, they will probably feel that hurling abuse at any TG singer who dares to get up on stage and open their mouth is Daily Wail approved behaviour. It would be interesting to know how club organisers react in such circumstances.

Here in Germany, with the probable exception of far rightwing rags, the general press attitude seems to be 'TG/LGBT? So what?', probably because a couple of print media owners have had to deal with this problem in their own families.

At the moment I've no idea when I'll make it back to the UK, if only for a visit. I can only hope that the folk-clubs will be welcoming. (And that's not taking the possible brexit fate of UK citizens on the European mainland into account!)

@Big Al Whittle: Since you've obviously got nothing even remotely intelligent to contribute to this serious topic - why don't you just go away and play with yourself??

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 17 - 02:13 PM

It isn't a "music" issues. So I am really npt sure what you are on about...

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 08 May 17 - 03:20 PM

It's a prevalent attitude found also in folk clubs and, as such, is a "music" issue. Some people lose gigs, others will be so baracked and abused that they can only perform their music under extreme difficulties. Here the subject is transgender but if you want to go back a few years you'll find that Janis Ian suffered similarly for her song "Society's Child".

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 17 - 05:48 PM

sorry to cause offence - but what exactly is the point of this thread?

the only transgender person i can think of - on the folkscene is the guy that used to call himself KIng George in Brownsville Banned, and I didn't even know he was still gigging....and of course famously Louis Killen.

I can think of clubs where any kind of nonconformity is barracked. i can think of clubs where the members are enlightened and tolerant.

if you're as bloody rude Lynn to the people you meet in English folk clubs - please don't blame it on your sexual identity.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 09 May 17 - 04:06 AM

I suppose that, at the end of the day, it's all about freedom to be who we are, and to accept that people are not standardised with an ISO spec. and that it takes all sorts to make the world. Or do we want a world where blinkered bigots rule the roost, where the folkscene is basically a closed shop open only to bonafide card-carrying heteros, possibly with the correct political allegiance as an additional limitation? I regard myself as a musician, the TG aspect is merely a quirk of fate which I have to deal with.

Al: if you're not really aware of any TG folkies then that's great! That's how it should be, in an ideal world we should be remembered for our music and not because we're somewhere on some LGBT scale, look like a double for Frankenstein's monster, or whatever. Then again, I can think of musicians who've lost bookings because of their political sympathies, real or imagined.

I'm only rude to those who I feel that, in a given situation, deserve it!

So, I'm off to adapt my repertoire to my changed circumstances, after all, standing on stage wearing a mini-skirt and belting out "Little Sally Racket" might be just a little incongruous!

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 17 - 06:07 AM

by and large, i'd say folk clubs aren't great places to be rude and unpleasant - whatever you judge to be the provocation.

English folk clubs are places where you can piss people off without trying. well look at mudcat - foreigners are always leaping back in astonishment about how nasty we are with each other.

that said, i hope you find a friendly reception and have fun.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,guest sand man good soldier schweik dick mil
Date: 09 May 17 - 11:40 AM

Hopefully the above answers your question, if it does not go back and re read all the posts carefully.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 17 - 11:55 AM

"Then again, I can think of musicians who've lost bookings because of their political sympathies, real or imagined."
Myself included, for 30 years I could not get booked at a certain club because i had made a derogatory remark about mrs Thatcher,the organiser[who must have been a Thatcher supporter died] and i have played the club twice since.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 17 - 12:30 PM

This is just a rude rant, nowt to do with music.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 09 May 17 - 01:56 PM

I feel that there's rather more to music than just songs, tunes, bands, accompaniments etc. There is also 'ambience'. Do you want to sing and play your music in a club where you are accepted for what you are - a musician,- where you will perhaps be told that your rendition of Tam Lin was really great, or that the song you've just written is smashing and your guitar style is wonderful. Or would you prefer a club where loud-mouthed bigots try to dictate the music and try to shout you down because your politics are 'wrong', you're an immigrant or because their favourite 'newspaper' tells them that people of your sexuality/gender orientation are scum?

If you specifically want the music there is another thread to this topic.

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 17 - 02:17 PM

i can't imagine anyone wanting to go to the second kind. are rhere such clubs?

Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 17 - 03:49 AM

." Do you want to sing and play your music in a club where you are accepted for what you are - a musician,- where you will perhaps be told that your rendition of Tam Lin was really great, or that the song you've just written is smashing and your guitar style is wonderful. Or would you prefer a club where loud-mouthed bigots try to dictate the music and try to shout you down because your politics are 'wrong', you're an immigrant or because their favourite 'newspaper' tells them that people of your sexuality/gender orientation are scum?"
I prefer to play in places where you are judged by your music, [are you listening John Mackenzie not judge by anything else including perceived on line persona.