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the uk folkscene and sex changes
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,Gloria Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:48 PM I personally dont find Dick's question offensive in any way.I perform a lot in a transgender role. i dont think there are many ts musicians on the folk circuit though - I only know one other, an old friend. i first started playing openly in this role almost ten years ago, but I had no idea if it would work and it felt like a completely new field because I'm not a drag act,or comedy, and dont offer any explanation or apologies to an audience when I get up and play.Nor do I try and sing in a "feminine" voice.So at first I played open mikes and pubs.These,of course, can be quite challenging environments at the best of times, but anyway, I found that I was well received, so I then ventured into the more regular folk clubs, and I'm starting to get folk gigs in this persona( I've done loads of gigs in my former existence).i feel I'm starting again, to some extent, but thats sort of refreshing too. A great many people on the folk scene have been wonderfully supportive,I've actually made a lot of new friends and I've been pleasantly surprised at the folk world's general niceness and ability to incorporate the slightly unusual! I dont particularly care for it either when people refer to me as "he", but I know they dont always know the appropriate way to address me, so I'm not annoyed by it.I was at Otley folk club a few weeks ago - did a solo spot,called "she",then got up again later with a few friends to do a band item and suddenly its "he" - weird! |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Smokey. Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:49 PM 'Tina? |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Soldier boy Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:00 PM Strange thread! Someone here said that he/she would "wager that most of us know someone who has had one" (a sex change). Certainly not in my experience in the UK. I've only once in 25 years of attending folk festivals in the UK come across a transexual person (a 'he' dressed up as a 'she'; dressed outrageously as a 'diva' with high heels, big wig, tight dress, false breasts, make up you could scrape off with a pallet knife, big false eyelashes and cheap perfume that stunck the pub out). And that was in what is now The Station Tavern in Whitby during The Whitby Folk Week about 5 years ago and he/she had absolutely no contribution or involvement in the 'folk scene'. And obviously I don't know if he had had a sex change but he still had a deep voice! I must admit I felt a bit disgusted at the time, but only mainly because of his/her ourtageous appearance/behaviour/smell. I don't give a jot about peoples sexual orientations or if they feel that they have been born in the wrong body or whatever. Good luck to them I say, but what I don't like is when they go really over the top and rub it in your face! Anyway, what really troubles me here is why anyone should post this posting in the first place unless they have a very personal and intimate reason for doing so. As has already been intimated, I suspect that Good Soldier Schweik (or Dick Miles, who some folk have mentioned) might have had a sex change already or may be on the cusp of doing so and is indeed concerened about the possible 'prejudices' against folk performers who have changed sex. Don't worry about it Dick; but you are ordered to report to barracks at 07.00 hours tomorrow for a very detailed inspection. Rubber gloves at the ready! Perhaps you should change your name now....after all...'dick'... may no longer apply!! |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Gervase Date: 22 Apr 10 - 02:56 AM As my profile picture in the Mudcat gallery shows, it's hard for many people in the folk world to make the change convincingly - or at least it is for the average Middle Bar Singer. Though the enthusiasm with which many would approach Women's Night leads me to believe that there could be many closet transgender types waiting to come out! Seriously, however, the original question is an impertinent irrelevance on a public forum, and probably says more about the poster than the issue itself. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Herga Kitty Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:00 AM Dick, I'm sure you already know that the decision of a well-known professional UK folk artist to change gender many years ago resulted in the loss of her career. Kitty |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Ruth Archer Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:12 AM "I must admit I felt a bit disgusted at the time, but only mainly because of his/her ourtageous appearance/behaviour/smell. I don't give a jot about peoples sexual orientations or if they feel that they have been born in the wrong body or whatever. Good luck to them I say, but what I don't like is when they go really over the top and rub it in your face!" Hmmmm...given that the folk world and festival scene often includes cross-dressing ceilidhs (especially if Tickled Pink are involved), adults running around dressed as fairies, morris sides in costumes ranging from the extravagant to the absurd (and makeup to match), various hobby horse creatures, rapper Tommies and Betties, etc...one would have hoped that people who choose to self-express in ways that are OTT and extravagant, regardless of their sexuality or sexual orientation, would find tolerance and acceptance amongst folkies. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: John MacKenzie Date: 22 Apr 10 - 04:26 AM Context |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: buddhuu Date: 22 Apr 10 - 05:31 AM The Surgeon's Knife fella is indeed talking crap. Gender is a wider consideration than just chromosomal sex. In the context of chromosomes, sex is probably the better term to use. Impossible to change sex? Well, that may not be what's being discussed. If, for example, a person is of the anomalous "XX male" type, then despite being chromasomally female, overall phenotype development would often suggest maleness to an observer. In such cases, a "sex change" may be conducted in order to mitigate a bit of a biological admin error. There are other chromosome karyotypes that can also muddy the water. "Sex" and "gender" are more complex issues than many even try to understand. Certainly more complex than the Surgeon's Knife would want us to believe. I'm NO expert, just a bit of a lay geek with an interest in pop science - expecially evolution, genetics and astronomy. At the end of the day, how the hell can any of us who are fortunate enough not to experience any significant complication of sex or gender identity hope to understand or judge the situations of those who do encounter difficulties. Live and let live, for feck's sake. Do these people encounter prejudice? Oh, come on. In a world as full of bigots as this one, of course they'll encounter prejudice. In many (not all) cases their careers may suffer through the bigotry and *phobia of promoters, record company execs, venue owners and organisers - even of the audience. More power to those individuals who have the strength and good fortune to wring a positive outcome from it all. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Ruth Archer Date: 22 Apr 10 - 06:04 AM "Context" indeed, John. Context is important. In this case, a folkie went into a Whitby pub during folk week, as a guest in the town, and made a (not particularly nice) judgement about someone who, as it happens, drinks in that pub all year round. None of the locals are bothered - this is Whitby, after all: the town that has special dispensation for goths wearing hats in pubs. It's the nature of the place. I'm not sure how simply living one's life is "rubbing it in (someone's) face", but given that The Station is this person's local, maybe the Soldier Boy ought to find somewhere else to drink in future when visiting the town. Anyway, when it comes to context, it's not like morris dancing and other "eccentric" folkie behaviours are restricted to the confines of festival fields. I'm sure there are plenty of non-folkie people who see morris sides dancing out when the local festival is in town, and think they look right pillocks. Or would prefer their local not to be taken over by a hoard of strumming folkies. So if we expect tolerance for our community, perhaps we ought to extend a little, too. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Noreen Date: 22 Apr 10 - 07:38 AM buddhuu, you said exactly what I wanted to say, and said it better than I would have. Thank you! |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Mo the caller Date: 22 Apr 10 - 08:49 AM ""the chromosonal determinants that distinguish women from men remain fully in place" And sometimes those chromosomes are *wrong* in relation to the actual gender of the person, just like other errors that can be common to biology" Maybe it's society's definition of gender that is wrong. I wish we had some ungendered personal pronouns. Why do we need to know a baby's sex before we can say "aaah isn't he/she/it lovely". I don't wear high heels or warpaint, but that doesn't make me a male. I see myself as a person, not a woman. So I find it hard to understand how some people can be so attached to the characature of the opposite gender that they want to change - though I accept that some do. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: G-Force Date: 22 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM So, what else did they define in 1954, apart from sex and folk that is? Must have been a busy year. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: BTNG Date: 22 Apr 10 - 12:25 PM Clearly, GUEST,The surgeon's knife , was asleep during basic biology. There are species of frog and a species of fish both of which are capable of changing sex when the ratio of male to female or female to male is lesser or greater Frogs that change sex However this should not to be confused with Frog Sex BTNG |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,The Surgeon's Knife Date: 22 Apr 10 - 12:51 PM Oddly enough, buddhuu, you're wrong on both counts. I'm a woman (a strong feminist too) and a biochemist with extensive research experience in my chosen field of work and author of a Master's thesis on a Foucaultian approach to ideological interpretations of sexuality. Crow Sister, I found this site because I was looking for the lyrics to 'The Man Who Talks Trash Every Day', not some bozo with a sex-change fixation. All I was trying to do, by responding to this thread, was to point out a few commonly made misinterpretations. I'll accept that in the very rare cases where the sexual characteristics of a neonate are atypical or ambiguous that decisions are made (usually by parents) to divert androgyny into one of the two biologically defined sexes. However, there are others, such as Organisation Intersex International, who take a laudably alternative approach. When I wrote this - 'Whatever incisions or excisions are made to assist someone to change their gender identity, the chromosonal determinants that distinguish women from men remain fully in place and long may that remain the case.' - it was probably the last few words that provoked a knee-jerk reaction. I was making the point that I am firmly opposed to all forms of chromosomal manipulation, not attempting to sanction an eternal division of the sexes. I was also simply avowing that bodily alterations do not change a person's inherent sexual characteristics. As far as I'm concerned gender identity is not essentially a function of karyotypes or ploidy, but largely formed by social development. In other words, I'm fully on the nurture side of the debate and see sexuality as a sliding scale from complete macho (think Bruce Willis with a hangover) to Dickens' stereotypical Dora Spenlow. I'd like to think we make our own choices within that spectrum, but too many of us, as this debate indicates, are hidebound by our social development. So, have I seen a folk singer who has chosen a gender role different to her/his biologically defined (or confused) physical characteristics? I don't know and, fundamentally, I don't care. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Bill D Date: 22 Apr 10 - 01:02 PM Now THAT is a clarification that some who posted above need to read 3-4 times. The distinction between operative concepts of sexual re-definition and biologically precise concepts are quite important. Some things can be changed... some cannot. If a person can be happier with certain cosmetic/surgical changes, it makes little difference to me. (I personally have known two cases.....that I am aware of) |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Tyke Date: 22 Apr 10 - 01:16 PM Will having a sex change help or hinder you getting gigs? You should ask someone who has already decided to change his or her gender Dick. A decision which I would think had nothing to do with getting bookings. I suggest that speaking to someone in an effort to understand his or her reasons for a change of gender might be a better way for you to find empathy and understanding. However I can quote a comment from one person who had just started the transgender process. He at the time new that the female hormones had kicked in when his driving skills started to improved. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: mousethief Date: 22 Apr 10 - 01:20 PM But he still can't put the toilet seat down. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: The Sandman Date: 22 Apr 10 - 02:04 PM In my opinion,the only thing that is important[99.9 percent of the time] is the quality of the music of the performer. I agree ,if anyone does anything in their private life or public life which is harmless to anyone else it is not of importance. That is my opinion. It would be much more positive if people showed their support for transsexuals,instead of making jokes at my expense,or publicly insulting me and telling me to sod off,or suggesting that they would not attend my gigs,because I raised this issue.,or stating that the question is inane I am not intending to have a sex change[as has been suggested]but if I was it should not be treated as a crass joke. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,anon Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:40 PM No. Not the anon who writes all those wonderful songs and poems we all love. The anon who has to be this way because of fear but who really wishes to make a contribution to this thread. I hope Joe can find some way to post this onto the thread and allow it to stay as I am obviously not logged in. I fear the bullying that has occurred on other sites that has lead to me leaving. It is not just me who gets bullied though. Those that are seen as my friends also get tarred. I happen to think that Catters wouold not allow it but it is best if it does not start to begin with. Joe, and many of the others here, has shown the compassion and attitude that I have been so lucky to get from the majority of those I have encountered on the folk scene and in the clubs. Yes: I am "one of them"! I have no wish to be in anyone's face or to be 'flying the trans flag' on the site. I am only an expert on one thing in this area. Me. Being transsexual is different for everyone, just like being who you are is different from being anyone else. I am not that 'convincing' as a female in looks. I am not pretty. My voice is still deep too, sadly. No amount of hormones will change that for me. Whether the surgeon's knife changed my gender or not does not really affect me. It allowed me the chance to get my body some way toward being congruent to my mind. Nature or nurture? I have no idea. I am just me. Trying to integrate and have a 'normal' a life as possible. Whatever normal is supposed to be. We each have our own comfort zone for what consists being normal. I have not come across any open discrimination against me in the clubs. I have been welcomed all over the place and felt included in all events. I have had the occasional bad comment from some drunken pratt in the bar who thought it clever to say something 'smart' (like I never heard it ever before). As far as 'folkies' go I have only ever been given affection and aencouragement to my face. I have made lots of friends and they have never been afraid to be seen with me. I am always welcomed to back to anywhere I have visited. Many top singers have been more than kind to me, in advice and in songs, and my life is quite enhanced by people's acceptance. My obvious 'difference' seems to not matter to the mass of people. Not everyone agrees with what I have done/had done, or what they see me as, but they are in the minority. George Papevgaris wrote a song about a transsexual's experience in the hospital. "Toni with an 'i'". I marvelled at it as he really seemed to be touching on something I have experienced in real life. I have had to follow people onto stage that have sung one of the crossdresser/tranvestite type folk songs that cause such a giggle in many. In truth they are funny to most I know. It's hard to have to manage that aspect at times but manage I do. I usually use humour to get past the few moments that follow. Being angry at people for making genuine mistakes is not on. I get the 'he' and 'his' in people's conversations around me. I have to let it pass. Most do not do it maliciously and gender cueing can be ressponsible with no intent to hurt meant. One learns to live with it. You know when someone is being genuine or being an ass. What my chromosomes are I have no idea. What does it feel like to be a woman? I have no idea either. I know what it feels like to be me (and that is not a man). Social construct? No idea again. All I know is what it feels like to be in my body and live this life. All I want to do is live that life and not upset anyone. In folk music I have found a vent for all sorts of emotions. I have learned a great deal. I have made many good friends. My gender is important to me, I know, but I try not to make it affect others. I am lucky. I get to appreciate every day who and what I am. Yes, it could be easier, but it could also be a lot harder. People should stop concerning themselves on how and why people like me live their lives. Just accept we are part of nature as anything else and get on with their own lives. Folk music has given me a great deal but, in the end analysis, it's the people in it that have made the difference. ""You're neither unnatural, nor abominable, nor mad; you're as much a part of what people call nature as anyone else; only you're unexplained as yet -- you've not got your niche in creation." Radclyffe Hall The Well of Loneliness, 1928" Can someone try and find a way to keep this in the thread? And to those here who have took the stand I have not the courage to make ___ Thank You anon
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,Continuity Jones Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:41 PM Well said Dick. The childish snapping on this board is at best tolerable but on a serious subject like this it just paints certain members of the Mudcat community as nothing more than adolescent bullies rallying around in the school playground. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: VirginiaTam Date: 22 Apr 10 - 03:59 PM it was probably the last few words that provoked a knee-jerk reaction Yes indeed it did provoke a reaction in me. Apologies for calling you cowardly and for accusing you of talking bollocks. I did infer a bigotry from the "long may it remain" statement. But I still think it was a bit pedantic to point out the obvious. So Surgeon's knife... you were seeking song. You have educated well formed opinions. Why not join the forum properly. I promise we are not all ignoramuses all of the time. Some of us are some of the time (this is my group). A fair number of us are quite the opposite. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: VirginiaTam Date: 22 Apr 10 - 05:10 PM Just want to say thank you to guest anon. I for one hope your post is permitted to stay too. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego Date: 22 Apr 10 - 05:36 PM I have known and worked with gay, lesbian and even a couple of transgender folk. I never felt it was my place to analyze someone else's private life. I didn't care one whit what they did in private. On the other hand, I just never saw the sense in making theater out of one's personal proclivities, which some are wont to do. Most were very decent people and in one specific case, very creative. If I hear someone's singing and happen to enjoy it, that's all that matters to me. If I hear you perform as Jane and I enjoy it, and later find that you were once Jerry, what does that have to do with the music? |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: stallion Date: 22 Apr 10 - 05:50 PM I first thought I had nothing to offer this thread in that I have a very liberal outlook on life. There are some things that I am uncomfortable with but that is my problem and I deal with it, we are informed, from a very young age, of social norms and sometimes it is difficult to re educate yourself, I don't have a problem with strangers but one of my friends son had the gender re assignment op, I have known him since him he was born and try as i do to use her new identity I keep forgetting myself and using the name i had been using for twenty five years, it isn't intentional and i think he/she had a lot of courage to do it but I do get the impression that when I do slip up she thinks it's on purpose which it isn't. I think it needs a lot of re adjusting and it aint easy |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,anon Date: 22 Apr 10 - 06:02 PM It can be harder on those around you than on you yourself. You have to cut people some slack to re-adjust. I have rights. So do they. I am the one living it every day. I do not live in a vacuum. My life has affected many people in very positive ways. But I also know some people were hurt because of some decisions I made and went through with. My life, without thought for those around me, would be very much a sadder place. I give people time and space. For those who have only ever known me as female it is easier. For those, like my family, who knew me prior my gender realignment surgery, it has been harder for them to adapt. You simply have to remember that not all who get it wrong mean it wrong. I know the difference between a mistake and maliciousness. Most folk do not deliberately hurt you. You have to keep that in mind too. anon (thanks Virginia Tam) |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Richard Bridge Date: 22 Apr 10 - 06:28 PM I think Anon's posts are admirable. I am not favourably impressed by the visiting scalpel. It is universal to refer to a "sex-change operation" and to insist that it be given a different name is a pedantry to which even I will not rise. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Apr 10 - 10:40 PM I gotta hand it to you, Richard. Most of the time, you're a grumpy old battle-axe; but you have moments of charming self-deprecation. [grin] -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: buddhuu Date: 23 Apr 10 - 04:45 AM Another thanks and respects to our anonymous Guest. Good on ya. :-) |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:13 AM Interestingly, Monash University appears to differ from our learned fly-by http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,anon Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:10 AM Thank you for your kind comments and respect. Thanks, Joe, for allowing the posts to stay. For some reason my first post came up with no text in it so here it is again. If you take two axis and cross them, male/female and totally straight/totally gay, then we all sit somewhere within the confines of the areas made. Because everyone is so very different bilogically (even twins to a great degree) and have very different influences on their lives as they grow up, we are all so very finely individual. Transsexuality is formly fixed on the male/female axis, somewhere along it, though it does often get included within the sexualies of straight, gay male, gay woman. I think that is because, historically, the gay community have allowed us within it's ranks, so to speak, and because so many brave gay people took stands it all made it a little easier for people like me to survive. However. Transsexuality is most definitely about Gender and not about sexuality. All transsexuals have a sexuality like all other individuals. I have read all the papers and books I can on the subject of transsexuality. Some I have agreed with. Some I have totally been against. Some just reflect the confused state of the research and many scientists mixed up thinking. Some are complete twaddle. The reality - of being transsexual and living as the gender you truly feel you are - can be very different from the writings of people whose only interest is from an experimental perspective. Being seens as some freak of nature is never helpful. I am just as individual as the next person and that is all that seperates us all. I am not brave. It would have taken me bravery beyond heroism to carry on living as a man. I took my cowardly way out and chose to be the me I felt I was. It was selfish at times too. This is what I needed to do to feel whole. And now I can just get on with my life. It can be a hrash environment to live. Some people are cruel (though I reiterate that on the folk scene so far I have not been treated cruelly). Fighting cancer is brave. Caring for someone with Altzeimers is brave and far more heroic than anything I have done. Losing a child and having to bury them is cruel. So many many things are far far worse than the life I have had and am living. It has taught me things I would have never known about nor encountered ever. I am lucky in so many ways. I am blessed with those I have had in my life and those who are still in it. I am fortunate to have found out something about myself that had hindered me all my life, to get it corrected, and to now feel real contentment. Of course it could all be easier. But it will get there for those that follow because the more we all mix and it is talked about the more understanding there is. It is not really all that hard to understand. Just like or loathe the person for WHO they are, not WHAT they are. If we ever meet out there just engage me as you would anyone else, or not. If my singing is cr*p, which I think it is anyway because my voice is not how I would like it to be, then tell me so. If you think I could improve by doing something with a song, tell me. Clap if you enjoy it. Just be yourselves around me and I will be myself around you. I know what 'normal' feels like. I know what being treated 'normal' feels like. I still cannot define 'normal' but I sure know what it is. It's what all you make my life feel when you just treat me like anyone else. I am not saying it's been easy. Nor that it is easy for others. But whose life is truly easy? I have a good life, I feel, and it is only good because of those in it. Welcome to my world... it's the same one you are in! anon |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,Gail Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:22 AM GUEST Anon - if your singing really is c**p, maybe you could become a writer. Your posts on this thread have been a pleasure to read. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: buddhuu Date: 23 Apr 10 - 09:22 AM Yep, what Gail said... Except, be a singer *and* a writer! If Ronnie Drew, Tom Waits, Jimi Hendrix, Louis Armstrong, Bob Dylan and Neil Young can make a success of 'singing' with that array of gloriously individual voices that would scare the pants off a mainstream singing teacher, then there is hope for us all. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:16 AM I am acquainted with one person who once male now passes as female but I don't know whether she has been surgically re-assigned. I only mention that in that surgery and large doses of hormones might I imagine change voice timbre. She plays a lovely guitar (fitted with hipshots for speedy drops into Drop D, Double Drop D and DADGAD) quite well and has a wonderful speaking voice: so wonderful that before I knew the facts (or at least those of them that I do know) I asked her why, with such a lovely speaking voice, she did not sing. Well, I have now heard her sing, and her voice is not conventionally female, but not delivered as conventionally male either, and is very musical. Given the laws of supply and demand I don't know if she would "make it commercially" as a contemporary/traditionalstyle singer songwriter but she is plenty good enough for support slots and as likeable to listen to as many semiprofessional folkish singer/guitarists. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:34 AM Why the hostility, irrelevance and dismissal evident in so many of the posts above? I can only conclude that the insulters and dismissers are finding it an uncomfortable topic, and so unthinkingly savaging the questioner and those who are expecting intelligent answers. Better not to post anything than force us to read their bile. Not a very good advertisement for mudcat, which is ordinarily a more tolerant place! The question at the top of this thread is not pointless, it's not theoretical, it's not prurient or any of the other names called above. It's a genuine topic of interest to quite a few people, even some of us who aren't considering a sex change. Certainly any performer uncertain in her or his gender and wondering about the consequences for a performing career is entitled to a fair and thoughtful answer. Granted, that's a very small percentage of us. But not smaller than the percentage of interest in a good few other thread topics on this board. Thanks to all who answered informatively and fairly. The others' poor excuses for posts only show up their own ignorance. Bob |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:45 AM Some interesting takes on this topic appear at http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=132112#132112 where some of the posters appear to have been reading this thread and responding to it. Bob |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,anon Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:47 AM Sadly, for male to female (M2F) hormones do very little to the voice. All the work has to be done in one's throat and head. You raise your voice into your head and take it out of the chest. For Female to Male (F2M) then the hormones do drop the voice, just as testosterone does to pubertal boys who were soprano. All the work you can do with your voice to raise it (not falsetto as the stereotyped male to fe,ales are shown on television) takes considerable skill. In my case chronic sinuses have severely limited me, but very acceptable 'feminine voice characteristics' are achieved when medically able. Trying to sing, while sustaining that, is very hard and I suspect that is why the person you speak of Richard has a non convetional delivery. That said, many women I know have very low voices and some men quite high ones. They enter into a very androgenous area. As long as the voice is pleasing then it matters not to me. I envy those who can thus move their voices when singing too. I am never jealous though. I am pleased they are able to get where they want to be. It all adds to overall richness of sounds and some songs need very different deliveries. Sometimes it can be really hard work being me and I am sure it is hard for others. With more acceptance and encouragement though, support and enthusiasm, it does get a lot easier. But that goes for singing generally don't you think? We all need the gentle prods and guiding. We all need the smiles and the encouragement. We need to know our songs are reaching out. One of the biggest thrills of singing publically is to be able to share. Not having an audience/like minded folk around would make it so less meaningful. It's also nice to listen too. We all have our hopes and aspirations, our dreams and ambitions. Some are lucky to get a good shot at them. Some manage to achieve them. If my life has taught me anything it is: Never give up hope To quote a well known song "Fairy tales can come true, it can happen to you" anon |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: buddhuu Date: 23 Apr 10 - 03:50 PM I just realised in my clumsy (but well meant) post above all the examples of success with iffy voices are gents. Apologies. Most of the lady singers I am familiar with can actually carry a tune, unlike that list of geezers. However, I am aware of female singers with fairly deep, even slightly masculine voices who have had great success. Not folkies particularly, but generally. Alison Moyet comes to mind. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,anon Date: 23 Apr 10 - 04:34 PM Worry yea not! I took the gist of what you meant and did not take it in any 'masculine type' way. I figured all you were doing was showing that some singers have made it big time even with 'flawed' voices? Alison Moyet has a wonderful voice, of course, and I so love it. So do all the men you mention too. I took no offence at all as none was intended anon |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,glueperson Date: 23 Apr 10 - 04:40 PM "Whether the surgeon's knife changed my gender or not does not really affect me. It allowed me the chance to get my body some way toward being congruent to my mind." Which is all that matters. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Art Thieme Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:52 PM Finally, a thread where I can talk about this. I was born on July 9---and when I was told I was a Cancer I hated the ominous sound of that. So I had a sign change operation. All is well now. Art |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: The Sandman Date: 06 May 10 - 08:07 AM refresh. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,Continuity Jones Date: 06 May 10 - 08:22 AM Nice one Dick, I was wondering where this had gone. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: The Sandman Date: 06 May 10 - 01:18 PM Thanks ,Bob Coltman,interesting comments at the cross dressers forum. at this time [of a general election] in the uk,it is important to remember how relatively recent the womans right to vote is,and how much more difficult it is for women in most Muslim Countries. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,Continuity Jones Date: 06 May 10 - 02:14 PM Yes and also to remember that although some women aren't good drivers it doesn't mean they are all bad drivers and thus should be banned outright or deported as has been suggested. I met a woman in the chip shop who drove for a living fancy that I bet she does a stirling job though and more power to her and her husband or huswomand if she's a woman's woman. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Anne Lister Date: 06 May 10 - 03:55 PM As long as we also remember that just because some men are bad drivers it doesn't mean that all men are bad drivers. Some can even read maps - just imagine! I met a man in Sainsbury's who drives for a living. Fancy that! I bet he does a reasonable job, even though he's not a woman. Good grief - what a load of codswallop to be reading in the year 2010. Guest Continuity Jones, if your post was meant to be ironic it sadly missed the mark. Oh, and you also missed the possibility that the woman in the chip shop may have been happily single. And yes, Dick, we have had the vote for less time than men, and it must be harder in some countries than others, but do we really need this kind of patronising drivel? |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: GUEST,Continuity Jones Date: 06 May 10 - 04:13 PM Yes Dave I mean Dick I think you have to take that nail on the head I'm afraid I think Ms Lister is quite right and yes Ms Lister you are right once more there's the chance the woman in the chip shop may have been happily single but she was very pretty so I doubt it. Where did the Sainsbury's man drive btw (by the way) perhaps I have seen him up around these parts. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 May 10 - 05:57 PM FWIW, (which isn't much) my take on the matter is that there are indeed truly gender displaced persons, and those persons will be able to live their new lives with a minimum of complications, hopefully. Howsoever, even in the course of my relatively sheltered life, I cannot help having come in contact with some plug-ugly M/F "transgendered" persons, who have about the same chance of ever passing for female as I have for passing as Tommy Emmanuel. These persons, I cannot help but feel, would benefit far more from the attentions of a kindly but firm psychiatrist rather than a ready and willing surgeon. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: The Sandman Date: 06 May 10 - 06:47 PM it is not patronising drivel,it is fact. |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: catspaw49 Date: 06 May 10 - 06:51 PM Is it true that in the UK all of the English Concertina players are transgendered or is that just a rumor? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes From: The Sandman Date: 06 May 10 - 07:00 PM rumour, is the correct spelling not rumor. |
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