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BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens

Riginslinger 23 Apr 10 - 07:38 PM
artbrooks 23 Apr 10 - 07:44 PM
Little Hawk 23 Apr 10 - 08:09 PM
mousethief 23 Apr 10 - 08:10 PM
Little Hawk 23 Apr 10 - 08:15 PM
artbrooks 23 Apr 10 - 08:19 PM
michaelr 23 Apr 10 - 08:23 PM
Rapparee 23 Apr 10 - 08:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Apr 10 - 08:27 PM
Ebbie 23 Apr 10 - 08:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Apr 10 - 08:37 PM
Amos 23 Apr 10 - 09:03 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Apr 10 - 09:06 PM
artbrooks 23 Apr 10 - 09:08 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Apr 10 - 09:38 PM
Riginslinger 23 Apr 10 - 10:09 PM
Ebbie 23 Apr 10 - 10:48 PM
Bill D 23 Apr 10 - 11:10 PM
katlaughing 23 Apr 10 - 11:37 PM
Genie 24 Apr 10 - 12:16 AM
artbrooks 24 Apr 10 - 12:40 AM
Amergin 24 Apr 10 - 02:26 AM
Riginslinger 24 Apr 10 - 07:55 AM
GUEST,Bardan 24 Apr 10 - 09:13 AM
John MacKenzie 24 Apr 10 - 09:50 AM
Amergin 24 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM
Bill D 24 Apr 10 - 12:00 PM
Riginslinger 24 Apr 10 - 12:53 PM
Ebbie 24 Apr 10 - 01:22 PM
Riginslinger 24 Apr 10 - 02:51 PM
Bill D 24 Apr 10 - 03:52 PM
Little Hawk 24 Apr 10 - 04:00 PM
katlaughing 24 Apr 10 - 04:30 PM
Riginslinger 24 Apr 10 - 04:41 PM
pdq 24 Apr 10 - 05:10 PM
DougR 24 Apr 10 - 05:32 PM
The Barden of England 24 Apr 10 - 05:37 PM
DougR 24 Apr 10 - 05:45 PM
Ebbie 24 Apr 10 - 05:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Apr 10 - 06:36 PM
Bill D 24 Apr 10 - 06:40 PM
Bill D 24 Apr 10 - 06:46 PM
artbrooks 24 Apr 10 - 07:07 PM
artbrooks 24 Apr 10 - 07:08 PM
pdq 24 Apr 10 - 07:34 PM
Genie 24 Apr 10 - 08:09 PM
Genie 24 Apr 10 - 08:11 PM
DougR 24 Apr 10 - 08:20 PM
Genie 24 Apr 10 - 08:24 PM
pdq 24 Apr 10 - 08:30 PM

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Subject: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:38 PM

By signing the Arizona immigration bill, Governor Brewer demonstrated courage and foresight. With actions like these it may be possible to save the planet after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 07:44 PM

Sure - as long as you aren't black haired with a tan complexion. This bill allows the police to stop anyone, at any time, on "suspicion" of being an illegal immigrant, and demand their papers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:09 PM

Will they get to put an orange star on them or something along that line?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:10 PM

When do the knocks on the door in the middle of the night start?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:15 PM

Quite soon, I expect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:19 PM

I think a brown taco, LH. Mousethief, they can start as soon as 90 days after the end of the current legislative session in Arizona.

This means that my son-in-law from Panama doesn't dare enter Arizona without a copy of his naturalization papers in his pocket. Hell, half of the native-born population of New Mexico is of Hispanic descent (and 30% of Arizonans)...and I'd bet that very few have a passport or other proof of citizenship such as a birth certificate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:23 PM

With actions like these it may be possible to save the planet after all.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:24 PM

So much for conferences and conventions in Phoenix....


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:27 PM

Should get to the courts pretty quick.
Arizona for gringos only, all others keep out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:29 PM

When are you relocating, Rig?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 08:37 PM

Someone should introduce the old gal to a chollo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 09:03 PM

Which old gal is that, Q?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 09:06 PM

Ihre Papieren, bitte?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 09:08 PM

My wife, who is Jewish and dark-complected, will just love this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 09:38 PM

Brewer is 66(6).


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 10:09 PM

Going forward, as illegals leave Arizona, other states will discover the same kinds of problems and adapt similar solutions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 10:48 PM

It worked real well in Germany too. For awhile.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:10 PM

The governor of N.Mexico, Bill Richardson, right next door, is part Hispanic, and shakes his head and says that legally, HE will have to carry papers to attend a football game in Arizona.

Jan Brewer admits she has no idea what an illegal immigrant should look like, but she is SURE the clever law enforcement folks in Arizona will figure it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 11:37 PM

I hope there are some brave people in AZ who will follow the lead from the original Not In Our Town movement in Montana and start groups there:Not In Our Town. When hate groups targeted Jews in Billings MT the community came together and everyone displayed a paper menorah in their windows so the haters didn't know who to target. That one action has grown and been repeated in many towns. What the hell are they going to do with the Native Americans? Make them stay on the reservations out of fear? It's bad enough without this kind white supremacist bullshit being the law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer brings the Gestapo to America
From: Genie
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 12:16 AM

Yet one more weapon in the arsenal of unscrupulous police (which, of course, is only a subset of the police) to harass and intimidate and persecute just about anyone they feel like doing it to.

Brewer says they'll be trained NOT to do racial and ethnic profiling. Of course, that means they'll need to harass, intimidate and prosecute a few white Anglos too, just to prove it.

If I understand this law correctly, if they stop you on "suspicion" of being illegal and it turns out you have documentation of your citizenship but just didn't happen to have it with you (say, on the beach or at the swimming pool or at a friend's house), YOU are still responsible for paying costs of your arrest, incarceration, trial, etc. -- whatever costs are incurred by the state before they finally let you go.

I'm wondering if they have to wait till someone is arrested under this law before anyone will "have standing" to challenge the law's constitutionality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 12:40 AM

Genie, do you carry documentation of your citizenship? I certainly don't...but then, neither of us is dark complected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 02:26 AM

So I guess the US is the whole planet as far as Riginfuhrer is concerned?

How is it possible not to see the racism in this piece of legislation? Only brown people are being targeted. They are the scapegoats of this generation. Once it was the Irish, the blacks, the Chinese, and now the Hispanic. This is just another plot from the wealthy to keep their jackboots on the throat of the workers. Racism has always been a tool of the master class. It divides the workers and keeps them from banding together.

For some reason laws passed to halt illegal emigration never seem to target the wealthy who hire them, only their employees. Who cares right? They can always hire another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:55 AM

It is possible not to see racism in this legislation because it does not target "brown" people. It targets people who are illegaly in the country and shouldn't be here in the first place.
       The larger issue, however, is that it takes steps to get some kind of grasp on runaway human population growth, most of which comes from immigratioin in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:13 AM

I find it bitterly ironic that this is going forward in a place called Arizona. Just think about the probable origins of that name for a moment, just like most place names in the southern end of the united states. If you go around stealing vast swathes of land from mexico, don't be surprised if there are a lot of hispanics in the area. If you found and build a whole country on immigration don't be surprised if there are a lot of immigrants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:50 AM

Sadly, I was thinking of Widdicombe Fair when I read the title of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM

Really, Rigin? I thought the worldwide "runaway human population growth" was caused by people having babies....not by emigrating from one country to another.

Another thing, Rigin, is who else is this law suppose to target if not "brown" people? Do you actually think they will ask white europeans for their documentation? Or how about those pesky Canadians who are so busy trying to infiltrate our country for the wonderful jobs we have? You do realise that Arizona borders on Mexico, right? What else is this but a racist, fascist law?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 12:00 PM

it's not necessarily racist...and 'fascist' is being over used as a label these days.

What it is, is a STUPID law. Yes...everyone knows that 99% of the targets of this action are illegal Mexicans. 'Racist' is a term that suggests that opposition to a group is simply because of DISLIKE of their ethnic background, and the 'official' purpose of the law is to discover & control people based on their citizenship status. Too many illegals?....find them and stop them.
What makes it stupid is the idea that one CAN 'have probable cause' to stop someone based on 'looks', 'dress', 'behavior'...etc. That, obviously, will cause much harassment of perfectly legal folks.....who, by default in that area are often brown-skinned Hispanics.
It's a fine point, but it is de facto a discriminatory law, not a 'racist' law. It is an UNFAIR law, a useless law, a law which is internally flawed, a law which no police officer will be able to apply sanely. The law should be, and probably will be, invalidated by the courts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 12:53 PM

"I thought the worldwide "runaway human population growth" was caused by people having babies....not by emigrating from one country to another."

          People having babies in third world countries, and then moving to a place where population growth is more stable create crowding in the places they go, and do nothing to lessen the problem in the places they leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 01:22 PM

But 'worldwide population growth', Rig, is not increased by where a child is born.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 02:51 PM

No, the fact that the child is born increases population. That's the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 03:52 PM

Rig...although I totally agree about excess world population, you are making trivial points about it and trying to plug the issue into a situation where it is a very minor aspect.
We are concerned here with identifying people who are breaking the law, while not bothering those who are not. Birth rate is very marginally connected in THIS concern.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 04:00 PM

I agree, Bill, that the words "racist" and "fascist" are being way overused in people's rhetoric of outrage these days. What I would call this new law is "discriminatory and authoritarian"...and, yes, stupid.

It's a law based on the fear of the "haves" that the "have-nots" are taking over.

That's also what the Tea Party appears to be primarily based on. I read an article recently in the Times, and it seems that Tea Party members are typically White, better educated than average, middle and upper middle class people with better than average incomes. They are those, in other words, who are mostly notably more secure in life than the people they most fear...the poor, Blacks, Hispanics, those who have far less than they do. It's not the redneck stereotype that liberals love to imagine ("Billy Joe" and his pal "Bubba") who make up the real core of the Tea Party. Nope. It's Mr Conventional respectable suburban and small town America who are the core of the Tea Party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 04:30 PM

Tell that to the local restaurant owner down the street from me, LH. I am not convinced. "Starvin' Arvin's" serves "good ol' American fare" and come up by their bootstraps, building a family business over many years which included 2-3 restaurants. For the past few months their marquee has said something along the lines of "Socialism thanks to Obama, Salazar (Senator) and Bennet (another Senator" Remember in November, vote them out." Now, it says something similar about voting them out AND join the Tea Party. What I have seen when I've gone to their place of business is redneck, white trash. As long as you are white and can talk the talk the service is decent and the food tolerable, if it's the kind that appeals to you.

I'd like to draw up some kind of flyer for the owner that says "This is your business on bush...this is you business on 'socialism'" or some such, something to make him think...I hate businesses and churches which use cutesy, catch-all phrases of the cause du jour to entice followers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 04:41 PM

"Birth rate is very marginally connected in THIS concern."

             Actually, it's right in the center of it. Some Central American countries have very high birth rates and very few economic advantages. One of the major reasons the economic advantages aren't available is because of the birth rate.

             Their solution is to go north, come to America, make our school rooms over croweded, drive our wages down, drain our social services. The real solution is to solve the problems in the places they are coming from. Again, their major problems is a very hight birth rate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: pdq
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 05:10 PM

The population of Mexico fell by about 2 million people between 1910 and 1920 during what is now called the Mexican Revolution.

The population stood at 14.3 million in 1921.

The population of Mexico is now between 110 and 120 million, with at least 40 million Mexican citizens living within the borders of the United States.

If you include Mexicans here legally, their children, illegal aliens and those who received amnesty in the late 1980s, there are about 68 million Mexicans in the US or 22% of the total population. This does not include families that have been here "for generations".

Ethnic Mexican children make up 1/4 of all primary school children in the United States.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: DougR
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 05:32 PM

Gee, I had no idea we had such a population of Arizonans on this forum. If the federal government would do the job it's suppose to do (make the borders secure)it wouldn't be necessary for state legislatures to take such steps as the one taken here. It's pretty easy, from a distance, to make judgements of what others should do with the kind of illegal immigration problems we have in our state.

And, oh yeah, should I run a stop sign and be stopped by the police they likely would ask to see my Arizona driver's license. I would have no problem showing it to them.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: The Barden of England
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 05:37 PM

So nice to see how the following is no longer valid in both our lands (to our shame):-

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Not in Arizona, nor Great Britain it would seem!

John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: DougR
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 05:45 PM

The Barden: I believe the writer was talking about LEGAL immigants.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 05:58 PM

As has been noted before, we are a nation of immigrants.

During the Great Depression my own family were immigrants, from North Dakota. My parents were industrious, law-abiding people determined to create a better, more secure world for their children and future generations. I don't see a great difference between them and what is happening today. (I wonder when Rig's family came to Oregon?)

They may have been legal immigrants but the truth is nobody asked. By accident of birth they were entitled to live where they wished.

Frankly, I think the great strength of our country, the USA, stems from, and has always been due to the great diversity and the dreams of the people who keep refreshing the tired blood of complacent people.

"...the United States has always been energized by its immigrant populations...At the 1998 commencement address at Portland State University, U.S. president Bill Clinton voiced support for immigrants, including immigrants from Asia and Latin America when he said that "America has constantly drawn strength and spirit from wave after wave of immigrants...They have proved to be the most restless, the most adventurous, the most innovative, the most industrious of people.
*************
Many cities, including Washington D.C., New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose, Salt Lake City, Phoenix, Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, Detroit, Jersey City, Minneapolis, Miami, Denver, Baltimore, Seattle, Portland, Oregon and Portland, Maine, have adopted sanctuary ordinances banning police from asking people about their immigration status.

Wikipedia

Have we changed that much? Pity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 06:36 PM

"... to save America"

It's still "America" on both sides of that border.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 06:40 PM

Rig...you're not listening to me. Solving the high birth-rate problem IS important, but THIS issue is about how to **IDENTIFY** in a fair manner those who have come here illegally, and as a side issue, how to design border security. This is the major issue because we have to deal with that until the population issue is resolved, and barring huge disasters, that will take decades even if 'those' countries cooperate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 06:46 PM

"It's still "America" on both sides of that border."

Yes...we know. We add "central" & "South" when it's appropriate.
That is another trivial point in THIS discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:07 PM

PDQ, that is an interesting set of numbers. Where did they come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:08 PM

Oh, yeah...there is no more such a thing as an "ethnic Mexican" than there is an "ethnic American".


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: pdq
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:34 PM

More "fun with facts"...

New Mexico has one of the smallest populations of foreign-born "hispanics" with 16% of "hispanics" and therefore about 7% of the state's population.

That is ranks New Mexico at 46 out of 50 in that category (by count, not %).

Maine, as would be expected, ranks 50th for foreign-born "hispanics" with less than 1% of total population.

Illinois ranks 6th with 2 million total "hispanics", perhaps 1/2 are foreign-born.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Genie
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 08:09 PM

Art B, no I don't carry around my passport, birth certificate, etc. Nor do I want to.

It's not just the hassle -- e.g., having to carry ANYTHING with me when I go for a walk or am a passenger in someone else's car if I don't want to. It's that passports (especially) and even birth certificates are much more problematic if lost or stolen than even driver licenses and credit card are. I want to be able to keep documents like that in a secure place and produce them only when really needed, e.g., international travel, applying for social security, etc.

And the alternative -- a statewide or national ID that contains all your vital statistics and which everyone has to carry at all times -- is just as bad or even worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Genie
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 08:11 PM

@Amergin [[For some reason laws passed to halt illegal emigration never seem to target the wealthy who hire them, only their employees. Who cares right? They can always hire another.]]
Bingo!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: DougR
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 08:20 PM

Question: Do those of you who are critical of Governor Brewer and the majority of the Arizona legislature live in open border states/countries?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Genie
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 08:24 PM

DougR, producing a driver license is no problem if you're driving a car.

But a driver license is not proof of citizenship.

But beyond that, why should you have to have your D L with you when you are not driving, not shopping (trying to use a credit card or check), not doing anything for which proof of identity is normally required?


Oh, and, BTW, Art, you do look sort of like you might be part Mexican. ; ) (More than Jenn does, I think.)


It would be one thing if, when the police interrupt your day and make you miss an important business meeting or your daughter's wedding and maybe even fingerprint and mugshot you, and then they find out that you are indeed a US citizen (maybe even native born 5th generation), they had to compensate you fully for all your losses, including legal expenses.   But that's apparently not the way this law is written.   You're stuck with all those costs and losses even if you've been arrested and investigated for no good reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: pdq
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 08:30 PM

"In every political community there are varying shades of political opinion. One of the shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects. Ten degrees to the left of center in good times. Ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally." ~ Phil Ochs


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