BS: Arizona law on detaining illegal aliens

Subject: New Arizona law makes everyone carry IDs
From: Genie
Date: 05 May 10 - 07:28 PM

Nugent and his ilk obviously have no respect for the US Constitution and the rights it asserts all (not just citizens or legal immigrants) have.    He disregards things like habeas corpus, the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment, the right to be secure in your person and property against unwarranted search and seizure, et.   His idea of Joe Arpaio-style "pragmatism" is all that matters to him.

As for "those people who can't produce documentation proving they are in the country legally" being "jailed up to six months and fined $2,500," that would mean that many native-born US citizens, even those whose families have been US citizens for generations, could be jailed and fined if they can't produce a birth certificate - which is the case with quite a few citizens.

Being one helluva rock guitar player obviously doesn't require you to have a conscience or use your brain.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: DougR
Date: 05 May 10 - 07:45 PM

Genie: For Christ's sake, they don't have to produce a birth certificate! Even a driver's license will suffice, or a State issued identity card.

DougR

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 May 10 - 07:55 PM

The left wing media is portraying this law to be unconstitutional, and it just reiterates the federal law, so it obviously isn't. Hopefully a case will make it to court before the elections.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Arizona's new ID law
From: Genie
Date: 05 May 10 - 08:27 PM

That didn't work for the truck driver we talked about recently.

And are you sure a driver license suffices? Pretty sure Brewer disenfranchised a lot of Hispanic Americans not long ago who probably did have driver licenses and other kinds of ID.

Besides, some people don't have driver licences either - and how much does it cost to get an official state ID?    If you're one of those people born in the US but not in a hospital, or if your birth certificate has been lost or destroyed (e.g., in a fire), and you don't drive, what do you show the state to get an official ID?

Some of these requirements may be reasonable for future residents but not for people who have been citizens since the days when most people were not required to have IDs except for driving.    Maybe people like that should be grandfathered in?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save Amer
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 05 May 10 - 09:29 PM

"pro-illegal immigration"?! Really? That sounds to me like when people call other folks "pro-abortion", as if ANYONE is pro-abortion.

Rig, you miss my point entirely. People risk everything to come here because there is WORK that pays MONEY which they may not be able to find at home. A system that we are supporting by pretending the problem doesn't exist.

When we, as Americans, start paying what products, food, and services TRULY cost, we will lessen the problems with illegal immigration, and overseas slave labor, and many other messes we have created with our unrealistic expectations.

I realize I am oversimplifying to a certain extent, but truly, the prices we pay for our food in grocery stores, our 'stuff' in walmart, our 'affordable' lawncare, housework, daycare, etc. are subsidized on the backs of poor people (some illegal immigrants) who are willing to do the shitty, dangerous, boring, nasty work that we aren't.

I don't hear much of this angle being addressed. Especially as reflected in our unemployment rate. It seems like simple math, to me.


Dani

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 May 10 - 09:45 PM

"It seems like simple math, to me."

          Actually, it isn't so simple. The illegals come and they work cheap, but when one of them gives birth on this side of the border to an "Anchor Baby," the whole family becomes a tax payer liability. So if you're spending all little bit less for tomatoes, you're paying a whole lot more for everything else.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 May 10 - 10:05 PM

Viva Los Sons
!

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save Amer
From: Genie
Date: 05 May 10 - 10:48 PM

Well said, Dani.

That point has been made in this and related threads, but it really needs to be stressed a lot more.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 May 10 - 11:12 PM

According to Arizona House Bill 2162, 4/30/2010, the following are acceptable forms of ID:

1. An Arizona driver license issued after 1996 or an Arizona nonoperating identification license.
2. A birth certificate or delayed birth certificate issued in any state, territory or possession of the United States.
3. A United States certificate of birth abroad.
4. A United States passport.
5. A foreign passport with a United States visa.
6. An I-94 form with a photograph.
7. A United States citizenship and immigration services employment authorization document or refugee travel document.
8. A United States certificate of naturalization.
9. A United States certificate of citizenship.
10. A tribal certificate of Indian blood.
11. A tribal or bureau of Indian affairs affidavit of birth.

Only Arizona drivers licenses are valid. It's been 30 years since I've seen my birth certificate - and it was a little plaqstic card. Hell, I can't even use my military ID card. I guess I'll have to take my passport the next time I go to Phoenix.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 May 10 - 11:52 PM

By the time you get to Phoenix they'll accept your military ID.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 06 May 10 - 01:15 AM

In short since few Americans have passports or any of those other documents, if you want to vacation in Arizona you have to shellac your birth certificate to your abdomen.

I wonder if they can nab you if you're in the airport waiting for a connecting flight? Bring your birth certificate if you're even likely to connect through an Arizona airport, or be diverted to one.

Or long-distance truckers coming from California and going to points further east, for whom Arizona is a regrettable stretch of interstate. Tuck your birth certificate up behind your CB radio. You might look illegally foreign.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save Amer
From: Genie
Date: 06 May 10 - 02:17 AM

Sounds like visitors from other states could be in trouble if they don't carry their birth certificates or passports. I didn't see driver licenses from other states on that list of acceptable IDs.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 10 - 07:07 AM

You've got to wonder where that list came from, huh?

The proponents against the Arizona law are like the "birthers" insisting Obama was born in Kenya.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 May 10 - 08:17 AM

Rig, that list came from here, and it is the official test of the most recent Arizona state law. Nobody could invent such crap.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 10 - 09:10 AM

Boy, somebody needs to learn to read. Those are documents you need to produce if you're applying for public benefits. Of course the state of Arizona doesn't want to pay benefits to somebody who resides in Idaho or Maine.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:00 AM

For Christ's sake, the law is being intentionally misinterpreted by the major new sources, just as it is misinterpreted by artbrooks.

A driver who runs a stop sign in Casa Grande will be asked for a drivers license, just like they would be in any other place in the United States.

A California drivers license is OK, one from New Mexico is OK, so is one from any other state.

The law states:

    A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:
       1. A valid Arizona driver license.
       2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
       3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
       4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: frogprince
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:56 AM

I've held drivers licenses from Minnesota, Illinois, and Michigan. None of these required proof of citizenship or place of birth. So why would Arizona accept any of them as proof of legality?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:58 AM

Interesting. Since New Mexico doesn't require proof of citizenship for a driver's license (and rightly so), I wonder if mine is considered valid?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 10 - 11:04 AM

I suspect the driver's licenses you carry can be traced back to you by the Motor Vehicle's Department in the state from which it was issued. Millions of illegals are driving around with driver's licensed that were manufactured in the back of somebody's garage. If an officer calls to verify, and it turns out the license number matches somebody who died in 1972, the officer will probably become suspicious.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 06 May 10 - 11:52 AM

Nevertheless, even if it traces back completely and the Washington Department of Licensing verifies it's really my driver's license, it still says nothing whatsoever of my legal status to be in this country. If they really accept drivers licenses as proof of legality, they're stupider than a stupid thing that's really not very bright.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 10 - 12:19 PM

Surely they know that. On the other hand, it wouldn't be very bright of a police officer to make an issue out of it, would it?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 10 - 12:28 PM

Let's say a car is stopped by a cop in Tempe, AZ. The driver was going 45 in a 25 mph zone.

The cop asks for a drivers license, and the driver presents a valid one from Washintgton state.

The driver signs the ticket and the cop says "have a nice day".

Not unreasonable, eh?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: frogprince
Date: 06 May 10 - 02:28 PM

I'm sure everyone realizes that, in the majority of instances, the typical traffic stop will still be a "reasonable" routine. So long as there is no cue whatever that might raise the slightest question as to the driver's citizenship .

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Arizona's "papers, please" law
From: Genie
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:05 PM

Riginslinger, Rig, if those are the documents you have to show in AZ to apply for public benefits, what document(s) do you need to prove you're a legal US resident?

Also, someone living in Arizona could be applying for Social Security or Medicare or Veterans' benefits - federal programs - and wouldn't have to have their main residence in AZ to qualify.
Plus, most states don't require you to change your DL from your former state to the new one for 3 to 6 months after you move there. So someone who's recently moved to Arizona might well be eligible for some state benefits yet still have, say, a California DL.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: "reasonable suspicion?"
From: Genie
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:13 PM

Frogprice, there's the rub.   You're stopped for a traffic infraction. What - other than skin color and/or accent - would give the officer "reasonable suspicion" that you're not a legal US resident?

And if anyone argues that since most illegals in AZ are Hispanics, that does not logically a basis for "reasonable suspicion."   The question is, "What proportion of those who "look" or sound "Hispanic" are illegal?"   If it could be shown that a high percentage of people with brown skin or a Spanish accent were undocumented immigrants, that might be cause for questioning most people like that, but I doubt that that is the case.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save Amer
From: Genie
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:20 PM

If a valid Arizona driver license is acceptable as proof of legal status, why was this truck driver hauled off by AZ law enforcement and detained until his wife left work and went home so she could bring BOTH their birth certificates to ICE?

http://belowthebeltway.com/2010/04/25/arizona-truck-driver-forced-to-show-birth-certificate-to-prove-hes-a-citizen/

[[PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.
Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.
...

Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver's license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.
An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.
...
Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option."]]

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: John P
Date: 06 May 10 - 05:01 PM

Rig, Doug, neither of you have addressed the fate of crime victims. If you were an illegal alien and got raped or robbed, would you report the crime?

If you were a US citizen and were jailed without probable cause would your constitutional rights have been violated?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 10 - 06:16 PM

"If you were an illegal alien and got raped or robbed, would you report the crime?"


             Probably not. I'd go back where I belonged.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 10 - 09:58 PM

"Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver's license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed."


          Maybe he didn't have his log book, proving that he hadn't been driving too long. Commercial truck drivers have to have a number of documents the rest of us don't have to have. It looks good in the papers, though, for folks who don't know all of that.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Smedley
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:06 PM

Probably not. I'd go back where I belonged.


------------------------------------------------------------

So everybody ''''''belongs'''''' in their country of birth?? What a limited, limiting version of human history that would be.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:34 PM

Such compassion. Are you a Christian by any chance?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 10 - 11:40 PM

"Such compassion. Are you a Christian by any chance?"

          Are you asking me? If so, I think those ancient superstitions is what's causing all of these problems, so NO, aboslutely not.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 07 May 10 - 12:01 AM

Ah, just a run-of-the-mill lacker of compassion.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save Amer
From: Genie
Date: 07 May 10 - 03:10 AM

Rig, you're grasping at straws, I think, to try to explain away Abdon's uncalled-for detainment.   He was told his commercial truck driver's license was not sufficient proof of legal residency and made to produce his and his wife's birth certificates.   Since when are truck drivers and/or their wives required to carry passports or birth certificates with them, when they are not being investigated on probable cause for a crime?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:30 AM

They aren't. I suspect there's more to the story. The Arizona law hasn't even taken effect yet, so who was asking?

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: John P
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:52 AM

Rig, you seem to be saying that rapists in Arizona should get a free ride. Are you really so stupid that you can't understand why so many police departments hate this law? Earlier you said they were mis-informed or something. Could it be that they'd rather CATCH the rapists???

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 May 10 - 10:14 AM

I guess I'm missing the connection between long haul truck drivers and rapists, John P.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 07 May 10 - 11:59 AM

It's the racism, Rig. That ties them together.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 May 10 - 02:29 PM

Well, there isn't any racism in the bill that Governor Brewer signed, so it must be somewere else.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 07 May 10 - 03:03 PM

Your naïveté is so touching.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 10 - 03:13 PM

Well, to carry that "logic" to a bit of an extreme, one could say that there was nothing racist about Hitler's policies toward non-Aryans. He just didn't want have them around.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 10 - 03:42 PM

Rig is right, Don. Read the Bill.

DougR

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 May 10 - 04:24 PM

The racism is really coming from the other side, like that vice-principal in California the other day who sent those students home for wearing the American flag T-shirts.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:02 PM

The vote on the AZ bill was party line minus one (one Republican voted with the Democrats).
Tucson and Flagstaff are bringing suit. Won't be long before this short-sighted bigoted bumff is deepsixed by the courts.

In the meantime, if you have to visit the state, spend only on the Navajo and other reservations.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:16 PM

Not everything stupid is racist. And the pot calling the kettle black thing is really poor form, old chap.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:27 PM

Not everything that's stupid is racists, you'er right, mouse, but that vice-principal is racist, and so will Al Sharpton be if he goes down to parade around in the streets of Phoenix.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:37 PM

And a tip of the hat to Rick Sanchez (CNN) for his Fotos del Dia.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: mousethief
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:59 PM

Al Sharpton is an meddling idiot who should have been retired on a Greek Island years ago.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 May 10 - 06:12 PM

Well, we can agree on that.

Subject: RE: Immigrants: Jan Brewer takes step to save Amer
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:41 PM

Thank God there's something......