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BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?

Genie 27 Apr 10 - 09:40 PM
pdq 27 Apr 10 - 10:18 PM
Rowan 27 Apr 10 - 10:23 PM
Genie 27 Apr 10 - 10:28 PM
pdq 27 Apr 10 - 10:37 PM
Bobert 27 Apr 10 - 10:45 PM
Genie 27 Apr 10 - 10:55 PM
Genie 27 Apr 10 - 10:57 PM
Riginslinger 27 Apr 10 - 10:58 PM
mousethief 27 Apr 10 - 11:03 PM
pdq 27 Apr 10 - 11:09 PM
mousethief 27 Apr 10 - 11:11 PM
artbrooks 28 Apr 10 - 12:05 AM
Riginslinger 28 Apr 10 - 12:18 AM
mousethief 28 Apr 10 - 12:30 AM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Apr 10 - 12:39 AM
Janie 28 Apr 10 - 12:54 AM
Joe Offer 28 Apr 10 - 12:57 AM
Genie 28 Apr 10 - 01:29 AM
Genie 28 Apr 10 - 01:32 AM
JohnInKansas 28 Apr 10 - 05:00 AM
VirginiaTam 28 Apr 10 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 28 Apr 10 - 06:03 AM
Lox 28 Apr 10 - 06:09 AM
Joe Offer 28 Apr 10 - 06:20 AM
Ron Davies 28 Apr 10 - 07:44 AM
Ron Davies 28 Apr 10 - 08:11 AM
Ron Davies 28 Apr 10 - 09:07 AM
olddude 28 Apr 10 - 09:54 AM
Donuel 28 Apr 10 - 10:11 AM
olddude 28 Apr 10 - 10:11 AM
Charmion 28 Apr 10 - 10:17 AM
Riginslinger 28 Apr 10 - 10:25 AM
pdq 28 Apr 10 - 10:30 AM
IanC 28 Apr 10 - 10:53 AM
olddude 28 Apr 10 - 11:48 AM
Ebbie 28 Apr 10 - 12:04 PM
pdq 28 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM
Ebbie 28 Apr 10 - 12:43 PM
Jack Campin 28 Apr 10 - 01:26 PM
Genie 28 Apr 10 - 02:17 PM
Bill D 28 Apr 10 - 02:25 PM
pdq 28 Apr 10 - 03:10 PM
Ron Davies 28 Apr 10 - 03:11 PM
Ron Davies 28 Apr 10 - 03:23 PM
Genie 28 Apr 10 - 03:25 PM
Genie 28 Apr 10 - 03:42 PM
Genie 28 Apr 10 - 03:49 PM
Genie 28 Apr 10 - 04:05 PM
pdq 28 Apr 10 - 04:15 PM

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Subject: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 09:40 PM

I know there's another thread about Jan Brewer, but not everyone knows who she is, and this incident happened before she signed into law Arizona's new requirement that law enforcement officials MUST ask for and obtain proof of legal residency when they have any reason to suspect that someone might be in the state illegally.

This indicent illustrates how obtrusive and potentially costly it can be, even for US citizens,
if it is against the law not to carry things like a passport or birth certificate with you at all times.

Video: AZ Truck driver forced to show birth certificate claims racial-profiling

[[The shape of things to come? Sure looks like it. And this incident happened before Gov. Jan Brewer signed the SB1070 into law on Friday. Video and story from AzFamily.com.

PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

He tells 3TV, "I don't think it's correct, if I have to take my birth certificate with me all the time."

3TV caught up with Abdon after he was released from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in central Phoenix. He and his wife, Jackie, are still upset about what happened to him.

Jackie tells 3TV, "It's still something awful to be targeted. I can't even imagine what he felt, people watching like he was some type of criminal."

Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver's license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.

An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.

Jackie explains, "I have his social security card as well and mine. He's legit. It's the first time it's ever happened."

Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option. ]]

Why should a US citizen be required to carry more than a valid driver license when at work driving a vehicle?    If the law enforcement officials have reason to suspect the driver license is fake, why should the "suspect" not be allowed a reasonable time period, e.g., 72 hours, to produce better documentation?   

Being arrested can, in and of itself, keep you from getting some jobs in the future, even if you are acquitted or the charges dropped.   And having your work day interrupted while you go to the police station to deal with the charges can lead to major inconvenience, loss of income during that time, and perhaps loss of a job.

This is the sort of harassment that will probably become standard operating procedure under Arizona's new law.

There are better and fairer ways to deal with the problems of illegal immigration.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:18 PM

"There are better and fairer ways to deal with the problems of illegal immigration."

So, why don't you explain exactly what they are?

Many US citizens have been waiting 30 years or more for the federal government to do something about the millions of illegals driving on our roads, taking our jobs and lowering the academic standards of our schools. Not to mention the explosion of drugs and crime.

All we get is inaction and various forms of name-calling and finger-pointing. Many of us think that various vested interests actually want the illegals here.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:23 PM

When I saw the new of this on Oz TV my immediate thought was, "Ah, the South African apartheid passbook system rises its head. Again."

CHeers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:28 PM

Number 1 would be cracking down on employers who hire illegals -- especially the big companies that do so.   Make the fines stiff enough to be a deterrent and, in the case of flagrant or repeat violations, put some executives in jail.

Second, strengthen labor unions. Make it harder for employers to harass, intimidate or penalize employees for trying to organize workers.   "Card check" would be a good start.

Third, make it harder to get a driver license without proof of legal residency and maybe make the documents harder to fake.

As for the illegals lowering our academic standards, I'm not convinced they bear much responsibility for that.   The US schools' graduates lag far behind those of many other developed countries, even in areas where there are not a lot of immigrants.   And immigrants who want to become citizens often know far more about the US constitution and US history than a lot of native-born Americans do.

And you're right: various very powerful interests do want the illegals here.   Primarily the big corporations and anyone else who wants to drive down wages.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:37 PM

"Number 1 would be cracking down on employers who hire illegals -- "

Fine, but the employer has done nothing wrong!

In fact, it is illegal for an employer to ask citizenship status, national origin, sexual preference, medical history, and a host of other items.

To do so could result in a federal felony conviction and/or a huge fine.

No, the feds must stop illegals at the border or the states will take charge. Arizona first, Utah second, hopefully Nevada will be next.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:45 PM

Bring this one on!!!

I mean, yeah, there's alot of hatred of primarially Hispanics (evidenced by pdq's post above) but let's get real here... In the 90's when everyone was employed and all cylandars were a'workin' we didn't hear any of this anti-immigrant crap we hear now...

It's kinda similar to our own history of slavery.... Yeah, as long as black folks as slaves were building the infastructure of this country all was peachy and we didn't hear all this "Well, them people is some bad peoples"...

But let time get a little tight and we get this same blame game from the same folks... We all know who they are... Top of the list is Redneck Nation which is always ready to vamp on anyone who don't look like them and who think that watching cars drive around in a circle is, ahhhh, entertainment... Yeah, these folks top the list...

But's it's more than just Bubba... It's alot of folks out there who just plainly don't like people who are different than them... And these folks ain't the NASCARers but they are no less predudice, regardless of their stations in life...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:55 PM

pdq, you are wrong about employers not being allowed to check legal immigrant status.   (And who the heck said anything about asking about sexual preference, race, national origin, medical history, etc.?)

Arizona already has a law requiring employers to do an e-verification of employment eligibility status of prospective employees.

A lot of other states do too.   Why do you think we issue Green Cards?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:57 PM

Oh, but, pdq, I have heard that employers in AZ are using the required e-verification procedure only about 6% of the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:58 PM

In any event, it's an environmental issue, and Jan Brewer is on the side of history.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:03 PM

The federal government requires all employers to fill in an I-9 for each new employee. They MUST verify that the employee has the legal right to work in the United States.

pdq, you're full of shit.

Having to show citizenship papers when stopped by the cops, however, is a hallmark of such wonderful, freedom-loving countries as the USSR and communist China. And the Teabaggers hate the Democrats? Total nuts.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:09 PM

Just for the record, Mexico requires that all visitors carry papers and show them if asked.

Federal law in the US probably requires the same, but we do not enforce such laws.

The states are tired if waiting and one has acted, others will follow.

My family has been for this country since 1789 and fought in seven wars, died in five.

We have earned the right to say who comes here and who does not.

If there is going to be a war, the sooner the better. If we do nothing, we have already lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:11 PM

I note you ignore the fact that you were wrong about the I-9s.

You can cut and paste this:

You're right, I was wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:05 AM

Genie, I disagree about drivers licenses. Those are, or should only be, proof that a person knows how to drive. Denial of them to illegal immigrants only results in people driving who aren't licensed and don't know what they are doing. Use of them as a substitute for an identification card because the US is unwilling to issue such a thing is counterproductive. I was tailended several years ago by a woman with no license, no insurance, no registration...and no habla.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:18 AM

Actually, denying drivers licenses to illegal aliens encourages them to got back to where they belong.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:30 AM

You can't possibly believe that? It encourages them to drive without a license. If they don't care if they're here illegally, why the fuck would they care if they're driving illegally?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:39 AM

"Actually, denying drivers licenses to illegal aliens encourages them to got back to where they belong. "

What planet are you from? They will drive regardless of any licence - as do many in Australia whose licence has been cancelled for drink driving, as well as other offence which disallow them from possessing a licence, such as certain medical conditions.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Janie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:54 AM

PDQ, on the maternal side, my Caucasian ancestors arrived in this country in 1704. On the paternal side, my Cherokee and Iroquois ancestors arrived pre-history, and the Caucasians arrived in 1735. If longevity of family lines in this country is your criteria for who has the "right" to decide, then I just trumped you.

From within my own paradigm, I reject your assertion that longevity of lineage within the political borders of a country automatically confers special rights or privileges to me or to my descendants. But suppose I did share your view. With rights comes responsibility. I see no evidence of you assuming the intellectual responsibility to think through the implications for you or your descendants of the various potential consequences, intended and otherwise, of the different ways in which those rights might be exercised.

I don't think there is any person on Mudcat who would argue that we do not have significant issues to deal with regarding immigration.

You present as a caricature. I'm never sure if you are simply amusing yourself by trolling, or if you are an otherwise bright person who choses comfortable ignorance and complacency, or a fearful person clinging to some illusion that you think might provide safety if you can only make the illusion real.




Whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:57 AM

This New Mexico legislation makes me worried from a number of perspectives.
From my 25 years of experience as a Federal investigator, I cringe at the idea of state and local law enforcement officers usurping the enforcement of something that is clearly a federal issue. Local officers don't know the ins and outs of immigration law. Federal officers tend to target the "coyotes" who guide hundreds of illegals across the border. Interference from local authorities can destroy Federal operations that work on a larger scale. If Federal agents aren't doing their job, then fix the problem there instead of replacing them with vigilantes.

The Fourth Amendment prohibits "illegal search and seizure," and generally prohibits police from stopping people who give no indication of involvement in criminal activity. What indication does a person give that he/she is legal or illegal? Physical appearance and language are the only attributes, and many Arizona-born citizens look and speak just like Mexicans. What's going to protect them from being stopped by police, time and time again? If you're a white American, how many times have you been stopped by police? How would you feel if you were stopped several times a year, just to check your papers?

It seems to me than in service of preserving ethnic purity in the State of Arizona, this law sacrifices the freedom and privacy of all citizens. If Arizona truly intends to enforce this law equitably, I certainly hope that police officers stop and inspect a number of white Arizonans, in proportion to the percentage of Anglos in the general population. And if those Anglos don't have papers, they should be treated the same as Mexicans.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:29 AM

@ pdq - "

Just for the record, Mexico requires that all visitors carry papers and show them if asked.

Federal law in the US probably requires the same, but we do not enforce such laws."

The US may technically require that of all visitors -- I don't know, but when I lived in Canada I was not required to carry my passport or proof of landed immigrant status with me. But we do not require that citizens carry such proof when travelling within the US.

Mexico probably does not require their citizens to do so either.

It's not only damned inconvenient to carry such documents on your person at all times, but it poses great risk of loss or theft of those important proofs of identity and legal status.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:32 AM

Art (et al.), I'm undecided about the driver license for illegal immigrants thing.    I know I had to show my birth certificate to get my first driver license and I've usually had to give my Social Security number -- which I would not have had if I had not been a legal resident.    (Yes, documents can be forged, but that's a whole nuther topic.)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:00 AM

In the trucking incident reported above, as it is being reported by "trucking industry news" commentators, the driver showed his CDL (commercial driver's license) which is supposed to require a background check comparable to what is supposed to be required in most states for school bus drivers, private investigators, child care operators, etc; but additionally showed his HAZMAT certification (Hazardous Material Transport) which can only be obtained from the Fed, and which requires a background check comparable to what "used to be" sufficient for clearance to access US SECRET information and materiel.

The Gestapo detained him until his wife obtained birth certificates for them both and delivered them to where he was being held. (They had threatened to sieze and deport her if she arrived without her own birth certificate.)

Unless she has travelled outside the US and has a current Passport, it's unlikely that the governMess of Arizona has "proof of citizenship" that would be satisfactory under those terms.

While I haven't seen recent statistics, fewer than 20% or so of US citizens even have a "birth certificate" to show according to fairly recent reports, since most states send a "certificate of registration" (if anything) to parents when a child is born, which has no more legal standing than a newspaper clipping. In some places, all one gets is a "form letter" from the doctor/hospital where the birth took place - again no more "legal" than a clipping from a church newsletter.

A separate request must be made to obtain a notarized COPY of the officially registered birth certificate that would be acceptable as a "legal proof" for most purposes; and few people bother getting one until they run into some special circumstance where it's needed.

NOBODY in the US has an "original" birth certificate in their possession, since the "original" is not valid until it's registered with, and held by, the state. No "original" is ever released, so the best anyone can do is a copy. Some states don't even send a copy, but at best will only provide a "certification" that an original is on file.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:32 AM

millions of illegal immigrants Really? Millions? I think that is probably a bit exaggerative.

My father (whose antecedents predate and served in the Revolutionary War) who served in US Army during WWII and South Korea twice would be terribly ashamed of this turn of events. What the hell did he fight for?

What Rowan said about apartheid - I agree.

If the greedy corporate capitalists had kept manufacturing industry going in the USA instead of moving it overseas where labour is cheaper, do you think anybody would be complaining about illegal immigrants coming in to do the dirty work no one wants to do?

Maybe you will think again when you spread that jam on your toast and pour your orange juice tomorrow morning - who picked the fruit and were they even permitted bathroom breaks while they worked.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:03 AM

I `ad that Sitting Bull in my cab the other day. I could tell `e was a bit miffed, `is `eaddress was all cockeyed and `is toma`awk was a bit blunt.
I said, "Whats up Chief?. You look like you`ve been to a pow-wow and somebody`s nicked the Pipe of Peace"
`e said, "Jim, I`ve just been looking at that Mudcat and you wouldn`t believe the claims some of `em are making. They reckon that since some of your lot came over in the 1700`s and `ad a few bundles they`ve got the right now to say comes in".
I said, "Seems reasonable to me, `fraid that`s showbizz. Might is Right and all that".
`e said, "Showbizz! My lot `ave been `ere since Adam was a boy but nobody listened to us when we kicked up a fuss!!".

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:09 AM

On the issue of driving licenses,

It makes sense that if someone doesn't have permission to live in a place that they shouldn't have permission to drive in that place.

In response to the point that illegals will drive with or without a license, I don't see how this is an argument for issuing illegals with driving licenses. Surely it questions whether there is any point?

Finally, if someone is driving without a license then they will be "checked out" whether they are legal or not.

If in the process it is discovered that they are an illegal, then that is helpful to the immigration services and cuts down on beaurocracy and money spent trying to police illegal immigration does it not?


In response to PDQ - so you think fighting wars for a place gives you a legitimate claim to it? So China's war in tibet gave it legitimacy there? japans conquest of south east asia at the start of WWII gave it legitimacy there?

What a load of old cobblers.

I suspect that your uneducated approach has less to do with mexican pupils in your class and more to do with your inability to process information and preference to cling to preconception and prejudice.

How many mexicans were there lowering the standards of your school so much that you produce so much ignorant bile now?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:20 AM

Gee, the Los Angeles Times estimates there were 10.8 million illegal aliens in the U.S. in 2009, down from 11.6 million in 2008. The total population of the U.S. is about 307 million.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:44 AM

It's fairly evident that this move is actually political positioning by Gov. Brewer.   Arizona, like some other states, is facing a deficit.    Gov. Brewer has indicated she might be open to raising some taxes.   This of course is anathema to the Right---which of course includes huge numbers of Republicans.   In order for her to win the tough Republican primary coming up soon, she had to try to win back conservatives (and reactionaries).   By signing this bill, she has in fact done this.

It's also fairly evident that this law will not stand. Court challenges will stop it. So Gov. Brewer will be able to say to the Right:   "Look, I did what I could on this issue."

It does force the President's hand to try to do something about a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, an issue he had not planned to deal with this year. Of course this is also partly due to pressure from Sen Reid, also facing a strong challenger, this time in the fall election.

More later.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:11 AM

As you probably know, there are many--legal--Hispanics in Nevada. Sen Reid realizes he desperately needs their votes. So he is pushing for a comprehensive bill dealing with illegal immigration, and most definitely including a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants.   Like Gov Brewer, he will be able to say to the group whose votes he is angling for, that he did everything in his power to get it done now.

The difference of course, is that Sen Reid's approach, besides helping him politically, is the right thing to do. Gov. Brewer's is dead wrong.

We've been over this several times before.   Without a path to citizenship, no illegals will come out of the shadows. Nor would any other rational person. Any suggestion that the 11 million illegal immigrants can--or even should--return to "country of origin" is perfectly senseless.    They do many jobs Americans do not want.   Many have been here so long that "country of origin" is a feeble joke.

It is also pointless to suggest a crackdown on employers.   Many illegal immigrants are employed in the agricultural sector. A crackdown, particularly in border states, will only encourage them to move their operations elsewhere--Mexico is an obvious choice.   Yet supposedly those who yell loudest to crack down on employers are also complaining about jobs leaving the US.

The idea of changing current birthright citizenship is, like others of the so-called "anti-amnesty" group, a recipe for disaster.    Anybody who doubts this should look at France recently, which has a large group of young people who are not citizens--and therefore feel no stake in the success of the country--in fact, since jobs for them are hard to come by, they are prone to violent protest.

It is also a canard to suggest that illegal immigrants are responsible for much violent crime--for the obvious reason that they do not want to call attention to themselves, and therefore would tend to try to keep any interest of the law in them to a minimum. I have read, I believe (but can't locate the source right now) that for instance I believe it's El Paso, close to the Texas-Mexico border, has in fact one of the lowest rates of crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:07 AM

In fact, as has been noted before in other threads, anybody truly interested in the welfare of American workers, and not just trying to use this idea as a smokescreen for his own prejudice would, if he thought clearly about the problem, be in favor of a path to citizenship for illegal aliens.    It is obvious why:    if illegal immigrants are driving down wages for legal workers, the reason is that employers know they can pay below minimum wage, and the workers dare not complain for fear of deportation.   If all illegals were made legal, they could blow the whistle on any employer paying below minimum wage, or otherwise mistreating them.

It is also clear that the alleged concern with overpopulation, particularly as it affects the environment, is a facade for prejudice. Much current environmental degradation in the border area is caused by illegal immigration and by the current fence, planned to be extended. Both of these problems would be addressed by making illegal immigration legal immigration. Also it is a historical truism that first generation immigrants often have big families--but with education and more prosperity immigrants realize their quality of life is better with smaller families. And succeeding generations take this to heart. So extrapolation of large immigrant families into the future is not justified.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:54 AM

It is a terrible thing to think that anyone in America should have to show papers ... This is not pre WWII Germany. This is not what this country is about or was founded on ... verification while crossing international borders yes ... but stopping people at will ... Not in America.

Any country has the right to secure their borders ... so secure the borders but you do not single people out at random ... If you give up one of your rights you give up all of them.   Ben Franklin said it best that any nation that gives up its freedom for more security ... Has neither.

When laws are broken, laws should be enforced .. but do it according to the Constitution of the United States. Not by some third world policy or we will wake up to a country we no longer recognize


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:11 AM

Vacation Arizona,
but bring a birth certificate.


If arrested for not having proof of citizenship, the fine includes a $500 fine. This is equivalent to the fine for running a red light in Los Angelas.

That is alot for leaving your wallet in your other pants.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:11 AM

An interesting dynamic recently. In town a Mexican family had a child who came down with a serious illness. The whole town came out like gang busters to help. Fund raising, donations etc.   Yet if you go to a coffee shop you will hear the same people say " all the people hopping the border yada yada". What is the difference, One is looked at as our neighbour and our friends, why? because we know them. The other is some nameless face perhaps. Now any nation has the right to secure their borders, not only for safety reason but for economic reasons and provide a vehicle for lawful entry ... fair enough, enforce the laws. But dollars to donuts if you tried pulling the paper stuff on these good people that were just helped the cry of foul would echo to the highest office from this town. Yet the same people without thinking would say good idea when reading this paper work law .... I can only think that when it affects those we know, major issue with it, but if it is a nameless face ... ok fine .. well it is not fine. The folks wanting it , are not just not thinking and I do understand their frustration of lack of law enforcement ... but this is not the answer


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:17 AM

Like Canada and Britain, the United States is a "common law" country, where the state cannot, under normal circumstances, require an individual to prove his/her identity unless s/he is doing something that requires a licence from the state, such as driving a motor vehicle.

"Civil code" countries, such as France, Germany, Spain and Mexico, are different in this respect, which is why such countries issue national identification cards that their citizens and resident aliens are required to carry.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:25 AM

Now both Utah and Arkansas are talking of doing the same thing. It's about time.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:30 AM

For the who like to quote the Los Angeles Times, here you go:


                                                                   From the L. A. Times:

1.   40% of all workers in L. A. County (L. A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.

2.   95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3.   75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.   

4.   Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5.   Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6.   Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
                                       
7.   The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
                                       
8.   Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
                                       
9.   21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish-speaking.
                                       
10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish. (There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County.)

                                 (All 10 of the above facts were published in the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare. Over 70% of the United States' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida and New York) results from immigration. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens .


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:53 AM

PDQ

What's your point exactly? Theat illegal people end up outside the law?

:-(


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:48 AM

In 1941 this country rounded up Japanese Americans and put them in prison. Why, because they were Japanese and we were at war. Decades later we cannot apologize enough, we cannot believe that we could do this to our own people.   So do we not learn anything from history? ... apparently not !!

Now there are plenty of laws on the books for enforcing illegal immigration ... so enforce it ... but this act is nothing more than a return to a dark and sad time in our history. More and more I see the Bill of Rights going down the tubes in the name of security. Exactly what Franklin warned against ... we better start learning from mistakes but sadly it seems like we just keep making more of them


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:04 PM

pdq, you appear to be getting lazy. See this:
Some true, some not


http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM

Ebbie, read what I said, not what you want to see:

                                     (All 10 of the above facts were published in the Los Angeles Times)

Can we assume that you are not outraged at the crime and carnage in LA?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:43 PM

And may I point you to the Snopes findings? "Origin: The various figure quoted above were not taken from a 2002 Los Angeles Times article. They appear to have been gleaned from a variety of sources and vary in accuracy as noted below:"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:26 PM

It makes sense that if someone doesn't have permission to live in a place that they shouldn't have permission to drive in that place.

Bang goes the international long-haul trucking business right there. The consequences would make the Iceland volcano look like peanuts.

Surely this Arizona law is flagrantly in violation of the Fourth Amendment? How did anybody ever come to take it seriously for more than a few seconds?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 02:17 PM

Ron D, I agree that " this move is actually political positioning by Gov. Brewer," but I think the main reason is probably not just to win favor with Republicans and with anti-immigrant voters in general. This law is positioned to enable tens of thousands of Hispanic US citizens being disenfranchised this November, by being "challenged" at the polls -- or, more likely, by being intimidated into not showing up to vote at all.

Just as William Rehnquist made a name for himself within "conservative" circles back in the 1960s by "challenging" African-Americans' and Native Americans' right to vote, at the polls, many Republicans (including hired guns from out of state) will be at the polls to force anyone who "looks like they might not be legal" to show proof of citizenship (a voter registration card and driver license will not be sufficient).   Many people cannot take off time from work or child care long enough to go find the required documents, plus a notarized official copy of a birth certificate can cost over $100 (prohibitively expensive for poor people); and apparently this new law would might a would-be voter to actually be taken to the police station and booked, pending verification of their citizenship, just because they tried to vote.    Anyway, the fear of being harassed, fined, jailed, etc., just for trying to vote is likely to deter a lot of legally registered Hispanic Americans from voting.    That's the plan.

Even if the courts should rule this law unconstitutional -- and I'm really hoping the Roberts-Scalia-Alito-Thomas SCOTUS bloc doesn't get the chance to rule on that issue -- that won't happen till after the November 2010 elections.

Jan Brewer, while Secretary of State in AZ, "purged" the voter registration rolls of about 1 out of every 3 Hispanic-Americans, including many whose registrations were perfectly legal.   Just as Katherine Harris purged the Florida voter rolls of thousands of African-Americans' registrations in the fall of 2000.   

Make no mistake about it, this is a primary purpose of this new "anti-illegal-immigrant" law.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 02:25 PM

Some of the various opinions I read above seem very thoughtful and reasoned...and, except in certain cases, very moral and civil......but some of them also start from some arbitrary position with embedded premises, and do not really address or account for some practical considerations.

One example...Ron Davies, whom I know personally and usually agree with, suggests "a path to citizenship" for illegals. Now, I have not interviewed any personally, but I know that... if *I* were in another country, wishing to get into the USA, but afraid to take the chance, and I heard that 'if you just hide well and hold out until they get tired of looking for you, they will eventually give in and grant you citizenship'...well, I would take that as an incentive to try it myself.
Sure...I see the temporary advantage in an amnesty/citizenship program....but the next time? I see no way being suggested to deal with the basic problem of controlling how many immigrants of ANY type we can absorb, no matter HOW desperate & decent they MAY be...not to mention how to juggle the demographic imbalances that will result.
I read homilies about how "this country was BUILT on immigrants", but I don't read anything about 'how to tell when it's full'. The situation NOW is just not the same as it was in 1700...or 1845...or even 1912!
   I am truly sympathetic when I read about the struggles of folks in poorer, developing countries....but the ultimate solution is NOT to just pack up and create colonies in other countries where it 'looks better'. Immigration to ANY country should be on a basis designed to absorb them in a manageable way, in education, health, employment...etc.
   Simply chanting slogans about 'unfair profiling' and 'making everyone carry papers' does nothing to address the basic issues. And putting pressure on politicians to 'vote THIS way about my relatives who are here illegally or trying to just creates awkward, patchwork laws which vary from state to state.

When I look at all these issues, I try to see it as if I was not personally involved with any of the people, laws, or situations..(as hard as that is to do). I try to find KEY issues in the flood of side issues which are so easy to shout about or put on signboards.. "We are human,too!"..."Justice for all!..."Who are U without us?"

I do NOT want to uproot families or cause businesses to struggle to replace workers, or deny opportunity to honest, deserving people! But neither do I wish to see this situation drift aimlessly until it erupts in chaos.

My father used to baffle us boys when we were 8-9 with the question..."If you were carrying all the feathers you could carry, could you carry one more?"
I still don't know the answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:10 PM

Jan Brewer, while Secretary of State in AZ, "purged" the voter registration rolls of about 1 out of every 3 Hispanic-Americans, including many whose registrations were perfectly legal.

33% of "hispanics" living in Arizona are foreign-born. Brewer purged them from the voter rolls as she is required to by law. She did her job, nothing more.

As far as the "perfectly legal", you have no way to support that claim with fact.

"...Katherine Harris purged the Florida voter rolls of thousands of African-Americans' registrations in the fall of 2000.

Katherine Harris purged the voting rolls of convicted felons who had not yet restored their voting rights and people who were registered more than once. One guy was registered seven times.

She was required by law to make sure that voter rolls were not corrupted. She did her job.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:11 PM

Genie--

That's an excellent point--that it is partly to intimidate Hispanic voters. I would expect however that enforcement of the Arizona law will be halted long before the election-- by the court challenges now being readied. Of course you can never assume anything--but I would think the unconstitutionality of the law should be clear to most observers--certainly the unreasonable searches aspect of it--especially given that there is no doubt that on occasion legal citizens will be caught up in this.

Even if enforcement of the law is not halted before the fall election, I would think and hope it could be made clear to all voters exactly what proof of citizenship is required to vote.   And if good old boys-- and girls--are only required to have an ID--say driver's license--or non-driver's license, which is what non-drivers now get-- then it should be possible to make sure that no other requirement than this is asked of other citizens.   Just on the chance that the law is still in effect in the fall, groups interested in Hispanics voting should make a major campaign between now and the fall to make sure that any citizen non-drivers have a non-driver's license. Further, they should be firmly assured that this will suffice in order to vote.   This should be done now, not later.


And even perhaps escorted to the polls, to make doubly sure the possible intimidation you speak of does not happen there.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:23 PM

I expect that the Arizona law would not have to be ruled unconstitutional by the
Supreme Court to stop it;   a lower court can stay enforcement of it, pending further litigation.

Perhaps a constitutional scholar among us can address this.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:25 PM

pdq, you are wrong about the validity of the voter registration purges of people with Hispanic-sounding or African-American sounding names. Many legal, duly registered citizens of Arizona and Florida were, in fact, unfairly purged -- e.g., because they had the same name as, or a name similar to, someone else who was a convicted felon (even in another state) or a non-citizen.   Brewer and Harris put the burden of proof on the registered voter, plus the purges took place to close to the time of elections for the purged voters to be able to get the record corrected in time to vote in those elections. Some states have thus enacted laws prohibiting such voter registration list purges within several months of a major election.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:42 PM

In case the Snopes link ceases to work (as sometimes happens), here are just a few rebuttal and clarification points they made about the N Y Times list that was based mainly on Heather MacDonald's testimony before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Claims:

"1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card."

What portion of the 40% does that "predominantly" cover?   And what % of the illegals are Mexican or other Hispanics?
Many workers and small employers, including citizens, deal in cash to avoid paying various taxes.
Even then, workers do pay many taxes when they spend their $.

(Snopes) 'Studies in the early 1980s in Texas and New York concluded that the taxes paid by immigrants exceeded the cost of providing public services to them, but that the federal government got the surplus of taxes over expenditures, and local governments had deficits. Los Angeles did a study in 1992 that reinforced this conclusion.'


"2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens."

MacDonald's testimony was actually that 95% of OUTSTANDING HOMICIDE warrants (which includes involuntary manslaughter, self-defense, etc.) TARGETED illegal aliens.

(Snopes) Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) were for illegal aliens.
If these estimates are correct, it could be partly because illegals are more likely to flee the jurisdiction before their cases are adjudicated than legal residents are (not necessarily because they commit a far greater share of the homicides in Los Angeles).

It could also be, to some extent, selective prosecution. Many homicides are never solved, and being arrested for homicide does not prove guilt.


"3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens."

The Los Angeles Police Department's "Most Wanted" list generally does not immigration status or nationality, plus many entries refer to persons of unknown identity.

"4. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers."

CA Vital Records Dept. estimated that 62.7% (not "over ⅔") of births were classified as "Hispanic" in ethnicity - not "illegal" or "Mexican").
(Also, if Barack Obama is "African-American," then several of my nieces and nephews are "Hispanic" or "Asian," even though one of their parents is "white, non-Hispanic.")

"5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally."

The L.A. County Sheriff reported in 2000 that 23% of inmates in county jails were deportable aliens, not necessarily Mexican nationals.   
(Legal immigrants can be subject to deportation if convicted of a felony.
How many of them are in detention FOR the crime of being here illegally?)

"6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages."
   
(If it's known where they live, why is it so hard to arrest and deport them?)

"7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border."

No actual statistics are known, and the estimates we have are from the CA Dept. Of Justice, not the FBI, and mostly about one single Hispanic gang, not about street gangs in general.

"8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal."

(Again, if it's known that illegals are living in these properties, why aren't the INF folks on the case?)

"9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking."

Which says nothing about citizenship or legality of immigrant status.
Half the streets, towns, landmarks, rivers, mountains, etc. in the state of California have Spanish names. Same goes for those other Spanish-named states like Arizona and New Mexico.

"10. In L.A.County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish (10.2 million people in L.A.County)."   

How many are bilingual?

---
Most of the comments added here are excerpts or my summaries of information from the Snopes.com article. A few are my own observations.
Urban Legends Reference Pages © 1995-2010 by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:49 PM

Oh, and on the driver license issue, of course you can legally drive in a state or country with a valid driver license from another state or country (in most cases, anyway). How else would tourist vehicle traffic, interstate and international commerce, etc., flourish?

I'm saying you shouldn't be able to get a license to drive in Arizona if you can't demonstrate that you are legally entitled to live in that state at least on a short-term basis (such as a student Visa).   

That said, I have seldom in my life ever had to produce a copy of my birth certificate or a passport to deal with most government offices. I don't even think I've had to show one to get a voter registration card in a state where I was employed or a student.    I've had to show proof of residence and maybe age (not recently *G*) and maybe give my social security number, but that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 04:05 PM

Pdq, Robert F Kennedy Jr followed up on Brewer's voter roll purge. Here's some of what he found:

Greg Palast, slate.com

[[In 2008, working for Rolling Stone with civil rights attorney Bobby Kennedy, our team flew to Arizona to investigate what smelled like an electoral pogrom against Chicano voters ... directed by one Jan Brewer.

… Beginning after the 2004 election, under Brewer's command, no less than 100,000 voters, overwhelmingly Hispanics, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, … one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected.

That statistic caught my attention. Voting or registering to vote if you're not a citizen is a felony, a big-time jail-time crime. And arresting such criminal voters is easy: after all, they give their names and addresses.

So I asked Brewer's office, had she busted a single one of these thousands of allegedly illegal voters? Did she turn over even one name to the feds for prosecution?

No, not one.

Which raises the question: were these disenfranchised voters the criminal, non-citizens Brewer tagged them, or just not-quite-white voters given the José Crow treatment, entrapped in document-chase trickery?

… [A] federal prosecutor … was sent … all over the Western mesas looking for these illegal voters. "We took over 100 complaints, we investigated for almost 2 years, I didn't find one prosecutable voter fraud case."

This prosecutor, David Iglesias, is a prosecutor no more. When he refused to fabricate charges of illegal voting among immigrants, his firing was personally ordered by the President of the United States, George W. Bush, under orders from his boss, Karl Rove.

Iglesias' jurisdiction was next door, in New Mexico, but he told me that Rove and the Republican chieftains were working nationwide to whip up anti-immigrant hysteria with public busts of illegal voters, even though there were none.

"They wanted some splashy pre-election indictments," Iglesias, [t]he former prosecutor, himself a Republican, [told me].

But Secretary of State Brewer followed the Rove plan to a T. The weapon she used to slice the Arizona voter rolls was a 2004 law, known as "Prop 200," which required proof of citizenship to register. ...

...

State Senator Russell Pearce, the Republican sponsor of the latest ID law, gave away his real intent, blocking the vote, when he said, "There is a massive effort under way to register illegal aliens in this country."

How many? Pearce's PR flak told me, five million. All Democrats, too. Again, I asked Pearce's office to give me their the names and addresses from their phony registration forms. I'd happily make a citizens arrest of each one, on camera. Pearce didn't have five million names. He didn't have five. He didn't have one. ]]


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 04:15 PM

Actually, the list I posted as "having appeared (at one time or another) in the Los Angeles Time" seems to have a reasonable base of fact.

The studies published by Heather MacDonald are important. An extensive article here but well worth reading:

                                                                     illegal immigration facts

"Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil' Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.'s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

Good luck finding any reference to such facts in official crime analysis. The LAPD and the L.A. city attorney recently requested an injunction against drug trafficking in Hollywood, targeting the 18th Street Gang and the "non–gang members" who sell drugs in Hollywood for the gang. Those non–gang members are virtually all illegal Mexicans, smuggled into the country by a ring organized by 18th Street bigs. The Mexicans pay off their transportation debts to the gang by selling drugs; many soon realize how lucrative that line of work is and stay in the business."

{a small part of article found a link above}

" In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens."

So, Genie, you think your posts have refuted that statement?


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