Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: pdq Date: 28 Apr 10 - 04:27 PM "So I asked Brewer's office, had she busted a single one of these thousands of allegedly illegal voters? Did she turn over even one name to the feds for prosecution? No, not one." That's silly. Jan Brewer was Secretary of State. The job of law enforcement is that of state Attorney General. Besides, Palast is not a journalist, he is journalistic terrorist. As bad as Pilger. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 04:28 PM Sorry, PDQ 1) "95%". No source given except Heather McDonald 2) Heather McDonald: scholar of the Manhattan Institute--very conservative group. Possibly not immune to cherry-picking figures. We need somebody with a bit more credibility as far as objectivity, e.g. WSJ article (not column). Quoting her is just quoting a column. On this controversial topic, not good enough. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Genie Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:06 PM pdq, Brewer's office could easily have handed off to the Attorney General or other state officials to prosecute any criminals they'd found, if any had been found. And Robert Kennedy offered Pearce's office that he would see that any of these felons were arrested - publicly - if they would give him the names of any illegal aliens who had attempted to register to vote. Nada. You dismiss Palast because he is a liberal. But he does solid investigative reporting and carefully cites his sources and facts. The investigation he cites was done by Robert F Kennedy, Jr., who is also very credible (even though he is a [shudder] populist progressive). Much of Heather MacDonald's testimony was extrapolation from stated facts, mischaracterization, and unwarranted assumption. Nobody is disputing the allegations in the NY Times column just because of her politics; her allegations were followed up and found to be erroneous in many cases and merely speculative in others. --- pdq: " In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens." So, Genie, you think your posts have refuted that statement? As has been pointed out, MacDonald omitted the word "outstanding," further paraphrased, thus making it sound like 95% of "murders were committed by illegal aliens. 1) not all homicide is "murder" 2) not all suspects are actually guilty 3) outstanding warrants are for people who have not been apprehended -- e.g., if they have fled the area 4) illegals are more likely than US citizens to flee if wanted on suspicion of a crime -- EVEN IF THEY ARE INNOCENT -- because they are subject to fine, imprisonment, and/or deportation simply for BEING illegal residents. Is it really surprising that a high percentage of the homicide SUSPECTS who are avoiding arrest are those who are here illegally? |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: pdq Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:21 PM Again, the actual quote from Heather MacDonald's article is: "In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens." Read it again. It has not been properly quoted not reasonably refuted. I would hope that any figure even close to 95% would bring shock and a bit of outrage at the carnage being inflicted on innocent people, citizens and non-citizens alike, but sadly I see no such outrage, just excuses. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Donuel Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:21 PM Dear Mr. Old Dude, You said, "It is a terrible thing to think that anyone in America should have to show papers ... This is not pre WWII Germany." Police already have the authority to demand that you identify yourself, including some proof of your identity when any kind of complaint is made against you. As for Germany, papers were demanded before, during and after the war. Since 9-11 I have had to show a driver's license every time I take my wife to work, not because I am a terrorist but because some nut wit thought it was going to be a deterrent to terrorists. If the Arizona suspicion law is allowed to progress to other states, as Mr. Rigshitanslinger hopes, white nut wits will end up causing another unecessary war against America from within. Then the nit wits will cry, where is all our California produce?! Where is our lawn care guys?! Why are the normally peaceful hispanics now violent?! Hey, where's the maid? The hardship of immigrants, with or without green cards, having to leave their children behind or having their wife or husband deported is already so outlandish that new repressive laws aimed at 1/30th of our population will be the straw that broke the donkey's back. No, old dude this is not Nazi Germany, it is America with many people who do not even know when their brand of patriotism or fear is actually more fascist than freedom loving. 888888888888 Mr. Rigshitanslingit, wants MORE States to adopt the Arizona law. Perhaps he is right in that the law does not go far enough. Perhaps a suspicion of being an immigrant without papers is only a start. The law should go farther and include being stopped for suspicion of being an Ass Hole. In which case Rig would be arrested at once. If you think SUPER SIZING our suspicions by giving Police more powers of suspicion will solve anything regarding border control and immigration policy, then you are just plain superstitious and superstupid. IF ANY OF YOU REALLY WANT MORE ARIZONA LAWS...consider this: suspicion of being a non believer? been there done that. suspicion of being a Jew? been there done that. suspicion of being a socialist? been there done that. suspicion of being hispanic? Let's see how this one turns out. \DH 2010 |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Donuel Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:24 PM We are lucky to have journalists like Greg Palast. btw he is not a liberal. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:28 PM PDQ--your "source" is still Heather. Lacking credibility. Also need context. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:31 PM Also, particularly Genie's #4 is very germane--even if the 95% has any credibility, which is not yet established. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: olddude Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:41 PM all of that aside we cannot throw out the constitution period |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Sorcha Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:44 PM Does this mean I need to carry my (expired) passport and birth cert in my wallet now? If so, I need new ones.... IMO, it just SUCKS! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Greg F. Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:57 PM 40% of all workers in L. A. County (L. A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card. Hmmm.....if they're working for cash, and they're working off the record with no paper trail or record, precisely HOW did the L.A. Times arive at this figure? Pull it out of their a$$, perhaps? BOGUS! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Lox Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:00 PM Sorcha, What if you're stopped on the way to the passport office as you drive down to collect it? Looks like a life of virtual reality for you ... unless you want to be deported ... |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Bill D Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:10 PM Out of vague curiosity, did anyone actually READ why I said back there? Or were you all too caught up in double-checking each other's detailed statistics and sources and bickering over arcane points of definition, as if showing something was 93% instead of 95% proved something in particular? The law proposed in Arizona IS flawed, and will likely be wiped away before it ever goes into effect, and Ron is correct that Brewer is mostly just positioning herself politically......but the situation that allows anyone to PROPOSE such a law is gonna be with us indefinitely. Does anyone have any idea what to **DO**, even if this stupid law disappears in a few weeks? There are several questions...should ANYONE be required to be able to prove who they are whenever a law officer thinks he has cause to inquire? Should ANY profiling be done for the purpose of enforcing immigration issues? By whom and under what circumstances? How should quotas, if any, be established? What should BE the criteria we use to even answer those questions? The answers to such questions are not obvious & automatic, but almost no one is asking the questions or addressing the actual situations that deal with the basic problems. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:26 PM Bill-- It's not "93% vs 95%" but the entire credibility of anything Heather McDonald says. I suspect PDQ would not especially like figures tossed out by, say, Keith Olberman, attributed to some other group. Heather has, for instance written on the "controversy over so-called racial profiling". Though racial profiling may not occur as often as Mudcatters think, it does exist. Someone who denies it totally loses believability. She is plainly a polemicist. Like Keith Olberman in a similar situation, at this point Heather has no credibility without backup. And if the 95% proves without foundation, PDQ's argument falls. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Genie Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:33 PM pdq, you're ignoring most of the refutations and clarifications of those stats MacDonald states about homicides and illegals. By ignoring the word "outstanding" (and its implications) and by assuming too much about where "illegals" are from, you are reaching unwarranted conclusions. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:41 PM Even if the "95%" can be supported, a few other aspects: Look where the "95%" is alleged to occur. Not on the actual border with Mexico, but in LA. LA is like many other large cities, with gang warfare. A possible theory is that the homicides are predominantly the result of gang activity--primarily killing each other. Information in gang killings is not easy to come by--and we are not even sure how diligently the police would pursue it. If this is so, it is obviously not indicative of illegal immigrant activity in general--since as noted earlier, most illegal immigrants would want as little contact with the law as possible--for obvious, and already discussed, reasons. Gangs are not "typical" illegal immigrants. This is all pure speculation--but the "95%" is a totally unsupported, practically meaningless number--so at this point it deserves speculation. We can return to it if more context--and particularly source-- is provided. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Bill D Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:47 PM *sigh* I have no interest in what Heather McDonald said... *I* doubt she is to be trusted to provide unbiased information....but that has no relation to what I was asking and concerned with. It seems to be more important to pin pdq to some wall with 'error' written across his forehead ...or for him to get YOU on some point....than to address what I said... Ok...carry on. I'll leave you all to it. I guess I should have realized it's just an Israel/Palestine game of "I can Google more statistics than YOU" game transferred to another topic. Who me? Cynical... ☺...naawwww.... |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Genie Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:57 PM Bill D, you may be right that the enforcement of the law may be put on hold until all constitutional challenges have made their way through the court system. (I'm not confident that the same 5 SCOTUS justices who just overturned 100 years of precedent, plus the original intent of the Constitution, to allow unlimited campaign contributions from coporations will not somehow find a contorted argument for ruling this obscene law constitutional.) But some of this kind of harassment and persecution has already been going on, even before Brewer signed this law into effect. And it will probably get worse now that this law is on the books, even if it's challenged in court. There may be situations in which "profiling" is warranted - e.g., if a robbery suspect is described as a tall white male with a beard, you look for people who kind of fit that description, not for short black women. But even if the majority of illegal aliens in Arizona are from Mexico, that does not imply that even a large percentage of "Mexicans," much less of all "Hispanics," are illegal. Targeting most "Hispanics" because most illegals are "Hispanic" is badly designed profiling - the kind that persecutes innocent people without really helping deal with crime. Before a law like Arizona's would be fair or sensible, better, clearer criteria need to be established for what constitutes probable cause to suspect someone is illegal. Not speaking English could be a component of such a profile but neither a sufficient nor a necessary one. Being paid cash "under the table" for very sub-standard wages might be another component (in which case probably the employer needs to be investigated) too. But I can't see why anyone who is minding his or her business and not violating any other laws should be stopped and required to prove they have legal resident status, except in the case of businesses suspected of hiring illegals so they can exploit workers. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:47 PM Hey, Bill, the rest of us can "sigh" too. But even you sometimes come up with straw men. I don't know anybody who wants to have the situation "drift aimlessly" til it explodes. The general consensus, aside from PDQ and Rig, seems to be: path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. That is the foundation of our answer to the problem. Unless I've missed something, your postings have mainly tended towards "this is a tough problem"--but no proposed solution. The "solutions" proposed by other posters have been, to put it bluntly, recipes for disaster and or wildly impractical: crack down hard on employers; end birthright citizenship, etc. We at least do have a proposed solution, which is not, by the way, "amnesty"--there would be stiff requirements (learning English, no criminal record except those "crimes" associated with illegal entry itself, etc.) which we went into back in 2007). Obviously the terms of the path to citizenship still need to be ironed out. But what we need now is a true agreement among all those of good will that in fact the path to citizenship is the only long term solution for illegal immigrants now here. And we have to open the door to others from the outside a bit wider, so that the immigration which will happen anyway will be legal, not illegal. Still haven't seen anything else remotely practical. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Don Firth Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:51 PM What the hell, Rig and pdq, let's cut to the chase here! Why don't we just round up everyone who looks like they might not belong here (you know, dark skin, they talk funny) and whisk them off to concentration camps? Concentration camps will need a lot of guards, so that will help solve the unemployment problem. We could employ even more people to build gas chambers and dig mass graves. . . . If you're going to do it, quit pussyfooting around. Just DO it!! Don (A Modest Proposal) Firth |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:52 PM Also, I said this morning that court challenges would probably result in a stay of enforcement of the Arizona law. I would guess this will happen without a Supreme Court decision. Do we have any expert testimony on whether this is so--or not? |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Genie Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:09 PM Bravo, Don! You've solved the whole mess in just a couple simple steps! : ) *g* |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:15 PM Shall we call you Dean Firth? |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Genie Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:16 PM Ron, am I the only person concerned that the Roberts SCOTUS just might finagle some way to rule this IS constitutional? And that the only way to avoid the charge of "racial profiling" would be to start randomly checking ALL people in the US - even when they're not at work or driving or voting or anything like that? (You're in your Speedo at the beach and you get arrested and hauled off to the police station because you chose not to take your wallet with you?) And that, since carrying around valuable, sensitive identification documents isn't safe, the solution is to implant a microchip into every person, from birth or whenever the law takes effect, whichever comes later? The illegal-immigrant problem notwithstanding, my concern in this thread is about the possibility that we are moving toward Nazi Germany, etc., where all of us have to be able to prove, at any moment, that we are not breaking the law by actually living and breathing here. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:37 PM "We could employ even more people to build gas chambers and dig mass graves" You're a bit late Don - if you had been keeping up with the net conspiracies - think they even been here on Mudcat - there ARE already such large constructions all around the US, ready for just such a contingency.... |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Bill D Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:44 PM What makes it "a tough problem" Ron, is what I posted at 2:25PM...check it out... short version: 'a path to citizenship' solves nothing for the long run, and the approaches by politicians are temporary and self-serving. When all suggested solutions are only band-aids, the wound will never really heal. " I don't know anybody who wants to have the situation "drift aimlessly" til it explodes."...right...they just want to delay the explosion till THEY are gone. You want my solution? It is similar to Will Rogers when he suggested "boil the ocean" as a solution the German submarines. When told that was silly, he replied. "I'm just the idea man, we have experts to figure out how." I suggest that we must 1)Begin to control population...worldwide. 2)Work with Mexico (the biggest immediate concern) to **control** borders, and also to stop the drug cartels IN Mexico, much as we approached it in Colombia, as this is causing a lot of the fear in Mexico and adding to the desire to leave. 3) Devise a GOOD way to allow temporary worker to come here....and to be sure they ARE temporary. 4) and...NO amnesty ..any 'path to citizenship will require that everyone identified MUST go home and get in line and file proper applications. 5)a total end to the idea that 'a child born here gets automatic citizenship, and thus special treatment for his family.....and.... 6)NO drivers licenses for illegals. If someone is already breaking the law, certifying that they know how to drive is irrelevant. and maybe 7,8 & 9 ....but those may be harder than boiling the ocean. Yes... I see all the objections to my suggestion, but *I* see the problems with all *I* have heard so far. I don't expect a BIG explosion, but rather, an increasing number of small ones as hot-headed bigots begin to react in classic hot-headed bigot ways until this situation begins to resemble the border wars in the Middle East. ...and OH, would I love to be proven wrong and see quiet diplomacy and international cooperation deal with the basic problems, instead of the 'band-aids until someone else has to cope with it' approach. Now, I guess I'd better go brace myself for the sputtering and metaphorical bricks |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Sorcha Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:47 PM Deport me to WHERE? Are they going to cut me up in little peices? That could be next. Bill, I have a ton of respect for you, but this law just SUCKS. Let us HOPE that it is NOT upheld when it finally reaches SCOTUS. That could take years. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: beardedbruce Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:02 PM BillD, "3) Devise a GOOD way to allow temporary worker to come here....and to be sure they ARE temporary. 4) and...NO amnesty ..any 'path to citizenship will require that everyone identified MUST go home and get in line and file proper applications. " These are OBVIOUSLY bad ideas- since I agree 100% with them. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Bill D Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:38 PM "... but this law just SUCKS. Let us HOPE that it is NOT upheld" Yes indeed... THIS law,as written is stupid & unfair. Bruce.. " since I agree 100% with them."...uh-oh, what did I miss? ☺ I wonder if our motivations are similar? Let me be clear... I do not LIKE most of the approaches I recommend. Even the most 'fair' ideas are sad and frustrating, as they mean delays and harassment for those involved. There weren't enough lifeboats on the Titantic either, and not everyone in the Oklahoma land rush had a good horse. One verse in the Bible admonishes humans to "be fruitful & multiply".... I would think that if an omniscient god meant that, he'd have assumed they understood that it didn't mean infinitely. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:39 PM Jan here! I was on parole in this country for the first five years that I lived here, according to the INS . "On parole" was stamped into my passport, and that was done every time I came into this country. And supposedly the UK was the #1 US ally! It took them four years and a lot of money from us for them to finally give me my green card. I could have been chucked out of the US for any little thing in that time, and I wasn't allowed to leave the country for the first eighteen months. So because of that I didn't see our first grandchild until she was nearly two years old. Now I will have to go through lots more INS nasties to gain citizenship here. This country takes my fingerprints at every opportunity, and every time I come back into the country from visiting my family in the UK. (It also has my sons and their families' fingerprints. It has all my fingerprints and whole hand-prints several times over. My own country doesn't have my fingerprints at all because I have never done anything wrong. Every person who wasn't born here is treated like a criminal, so why would I ever want to become a citizen of such a paranoid unwelcoming country? The reason for me is I want this nonsense to end, and as I pay taxes and work twelve hours a day I want to have the right to vote so that I can change things here! Added to this, every thinking person should realize that our families were all immigrants at one point. It's a shame the 1492 Homeland Security didn't take our fingerprints and turn us away. There but for fortune go I, and we should all recognize this. Only the Native Americans have a right to complain. They were here before any Europeans. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:41 PM "One verse in the Bible admonishes humans to "be fruitful & multiply"" No, the scribe misheard him and misremembered it later while sober - He really said - "Have some fruit, it's good for the eyes"! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Janie Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:46 PM Bill and Joe, Well said, both of you. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:53 PM Bill-- I'm sorry: "go home" and get in line is just wildly off-base. 1) As I indicated earlier, many have been here so long that "go home" to "country of origin" is a feeble joke. 2) If you ever make "go home" and get in line a condition for path to citizenship, no illegal immigrant will ever come out of the shadows voluntarily. Would you, in their place? I would not. 3) Since they will not voluntarily come forward and "go home" how will you enforce this? Informants? You know what direction this is leading. 4) If they did all magically get whisked "home", you'd see what a huge hit to the US economy that would cause. Not anything that should be wished by a thinking person. It's clear that the proposals put forward by Genie, Art, and I, among others, are the only sensible ones. Among other things, again, as Genie and I have already pointed out once today, any person truly concerned about illegal immigrants forcing down wages of US workers should be in favor of a path to citizenship for illegals. If they were legal they would not be vulnerable to unscrupulous employers paying less than minimum wage, or otherwise mistreating them, then holding the deportation threat over their heads if they complained. All workers would benefit. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Donuel Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:09 PM It is sad to hear people like Bill essentially say that immigrants are wounding our country and that the wound won't heal if all we do is use band aid fixes... what? he didn't say exactly that? Well that doesn't matter since he still sounds suspicious. This is a subject that Christians (like Foolstroupe) should be quoting Jesus and not racist degenerates like Palin and Hunter. (present company excluded - for now). and yes I meant Jesus and not Haysoose. I would wager that Latino Immigrants are not a net loss for our country. Even illegals average 1,600 dollars in taxes per year. Hospitals get federal and state subsidies. Schools are desperate everywhere since Wall St. sacrificed 11 million US jobs for a handful of millions of dollars in temporary profits. I learned today that part of the new AZ law says that any citizen may sue any law enforcment officer who does not do his duty to satisfy the reasonable suspicion law. Now that is another damned if you do - damned if you don't 14 million ton can of worms. As for the lengthy debate over the validity of a quote regarding 95% percent; 95% is in fact an actual valid statistic, in search of a scenario to fit. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:10 PM "country takes my fingerprints at every opportunity" One of the things about the US that horrifies Australians! And this is the important continent where critical parts of US Military spy stuff is hidden - even from Aussie citizens - the Aussie Govt has 'no right to even inspect the facilities'! The US No 1 pacific Ally! Other horrors include frenetic 'hog tie' handcuffing by the Police at any excuse! What about that poor truck driver too? A while ago footage from a US program show a guy whose wife had thrown a hot frypan - probably fat, but could have just been hot water in his face. He was screaming in pain, but was hog tied. At least the cop was human enough to turn the hose on his face AFTER the mandatory hogtieing... what next, the execution after the fair trial? |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:14 PM "This is a subject that Christians (like Foolstroupe)" How dare you insult me sir! Watching the behaviour of many of those who publicly and obnoxiously loudly PROFESS such beliefs and demand that others should also convert to THEIR narrow minded hysteria sickens me to the extent of almost regretting my Lutheran upbringing! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:16 PM I've also pointed out--more than once--that though first generation families are often large (and this has been historically true for many groups), often they realize with education and more prosperity that quality of life is higher with smaller families--and they act on that in succeeding generations. So extrapolation of large Hispanic families into the future indefinitely is not justified. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Donuel Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:26 PM So what do we do about ALL this? Don: I KNOW, lets put on a play about the AZ law and hire immigrant actors and stage hands! Bruce: Well you better make sure they're legal first. Rapaire: I'll check the girls! Ebbie: I'll do the boys! Ron: I'll handle the statistics! Genie: I think you're missing the point. Group in unison: hmm maybe you're right. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: ichMael Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:33 PM I'd have to look, but I believe it's Article IV of the constitution that says the feds will ensure each state a republic form or government and protect each state from invasion. What Arizona has on its hands is an invasion. Illegals pour across the border. They come to the US for the government programs. Can't blame them, but it's hard on the economy. But if the feds would hold up their part of the statehood contract, the border wouldn't be porous. Aren't we "at war with terrorism?" The first thing you do in a war is shut the borders to protect attack. So why is the Mexican border so open? Arizona had to do something to protect itself. It'll be interesting to see what the courts say. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Ebbie Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:04 AM Good gracious! How do I "do" the boys? |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:10 AM Are we not all of The Family Of Man? (Woman as well) Borders are nothing but artificial lines drawn upon this beautiful Earth that we all share! Let us all sing in unison Woody's Refugees! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: mousethief Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:24 AM "Invasion"? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. You can't be at war with an abstract noun. It's a bit of political wank which somehow the public fell for. Then again given some of the "public" that have posted on this thread, it's not so amazing after all. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: artbrooks Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:46 AM You ever been down along that border? Most of it is scrub oak and sagebrush with no water anywhere. Where there are cattle grazing, they speak in terms of 2 or 3 cattle per square mile! "Defend" the border? "Close" the border? There aren't enough soldiers, Guardsmen, Border Patrol officer and FBI agents in existence to do it. Sure, put up a 2 thousand-mile-long, 12-foot-high wall...and anybody who wants to cross it will get a 14-foot ladder and wait for a dark night - or tunnel under. 400-500 people per year are known to die trying to cross that desert - and that is almost certainly a low figure. Some of you just don't get it. For some of these people, living 15 in a room, getting paid less than half of minimum wage and being under constant threat of being summarily arrested and sent back is worth it...simply because this is better than the lives they lead wherever they come from and because this the only way they can send money home to support their families. They will only go home and stay home if something happens to break that link. At least one estimate I've seen recently said that the number of illegal Mexican nationals in the US decreased from 11 million to 10 million last year simply because the economic bust dried up jobs. Laws like Arizona's will only drive them further underground. A solution? Damned if I know, but repression and mass deportation ain't it. They'll be right back next month - hiding better, paid less and treated worse. If I were charged with putting some kind of a program together, I think it would include a modern version of the old bracero program, with necessary protections for employees and some assurance that they would go home when their time was up. Most of them would, believe it or not, rather be in Sonora than Alabama or El Salvador than Arizona! Much as I hate to exacerbate anyone's coronary problems, I also think it has to include some type of (oh, that dirty word!) amnesty program. There has to be special consideration for those who came to the US as young children and who have no ties to their "native lands" and to those who were born here of illegal migrant parents (and let's leave "birthright" for another day). I know some of these kids - and they think of themselves as Americans and they are Americans...except for a piece of paper. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Fossil Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:23 AM pdq = troll. Rest of you, wasting your time. I spent a long time living in Belgium where the citizen's ID card is the most useful bit of paper anyone can have. Banks, police, pubs, whatever. Flash the bit 'o paper, bearing your photo, which fits neatly into your wallet and which everyone carries everywhere, and you're home free. When you *have* an ID card the words "Your papers please" hold no terrors at all. If you don't, you'll have a lot of explaining to do. Which is the way it should be. All that trucker's problems could've been solved if his state had had a proper ID card system, instead of leaving it to low-level functionaries to decide what's a proof of his legitimate existence. Given the ass-covering culture that exists in modern bureaucracies, something like this was inevitable. And it will happen again, and again. Mark my words! |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:36 AM Don't you think that if the political parties would uphold the Constitution, of which they swore to uphold, instead of pandering to the interests, which pay them off, that we would be having this problem?? The very fact that they don't should be anyone's clue, that serving this nation IS NOT what they are about!! There is NO REASON that the illegals cannot come across legally, pay taxes, like the rest of us, and freely go home when they want to their families, and come back again. We citizens can barely build a shed, without filing an environmental report, as to the impact of the environment, but the same hypocrites who pushed for that, somehow think that 15 to 20 million, people flooding our system should be free to do that unaccounted for. Now does that make sense to you? I think we can all remember where the police could pull you over, and fill out an FI card. I thought that was a pain in the ass, and did not see the need to be rousted, for nothing! Guess what??...They still can and DO! Now for some ridiculous reason, they can't for checking for citizenship??...and I am not for that, either..but the hypocritical, non law abiding political hacks, in Washington, have made that a 'necessity'..by not doing their job, and ignoring the law of the land! Then what? I'm supposed to be all excited about 'electing' one of these lying jerks??? 'Fraid not!!! And that goes for most all of them! GfS |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: olddude Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:52 AM Donuel, my point about the papers is with probable cause. You are correct we all have to identify ourselves in many cases. But what concerns me is pulling over ethnic people and ask for papers because of their looks. Even if a police officer thinks you are DUI but are driving down a road and violating no law they still need probable cause to pull you over. The only way around that is a road check where they check all vehicles. My fear with this is singling out one group of people. That to me is wrong ... my opinion with respect. I don't think this law makes sense, they can check alright, hence by setting up a road block and ask for ID . They do that here, for seat belts for safety inspections, for DUI. Stopping all cars is legal since no one group is singled out. This law targets a single group and is dangerous I think to walk that road. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: artbrooks Date: 29 Apr 10 - 10:43 AM This wasn't in the original post: "A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV's calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure. The agents needed to verify Abdon was in the country legally and it is not uncommon to ask for someone's birth certificate. She also said this has nothing to do with the proposed bill or racial profiling." It is worthwhile to note that it was the Feds who pulled this guy over, not the Arizona state or local authorities. That doesn't make it any better, of course. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: Bill D Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:40 PM "It is sad to hear people like Bill essentially say that immigrants are wounding our country and that the wound won't heal if all we do is use band aid fixes... what? he didn't say exactly that? Well that doesn't matter since he still sounds suspicious." No, I DIDN'T say exactly that. What I DO say is that we have laws that are 'supposed' to regulate immigration. Someone needs to answer the question "Should those laws BE enforced?" If the answer is 'yes', the next question is either "How?" or if the answer in 'no', the next question is "What now?" Those of you who advocate leniency and 'paths to citizenship' and 'amnesty' need to reflect on 'exactly' what what is implied in such policies. Ron Davies, at 10:53PM last night said "If you ever make "go home" and get in line a condition for path to citizenship, no illegal immigrant will ever come out of the shadows voluntarily". Yes, that's probably true....and if you do NOT make it a condition, those who ARE waiting in the legal line in Mexico, who may be suffering, would have a pretty good reason to cry "foul!" I have seen no answer to this dilemma....do we just shrug and say, "Hey...we give up. No more rules, lines or waiting, since everyone agrees that strict enforcement is too hard and we can't design a fair solution. Everyone just come on over and take your chances about finding homes and jobs...but don't complain when the job market won't support you HERE any better than it did THERE." This is not about mean ol' Bill wanting to be hard-nosed and demanding nice folks be rounded up like cattle and deported...it's about SEEING the long-term consequences of ANY policy! (drilling for oil in the Gulf leads to spills...nuclear power can bring on Three-Mile Islands... allowing people to build in 10 years flood plains means regular rescue and billions in damages)...and the list is long. What I did was try to construct a list of consistent policies....I was not suggesting they were 'happy' policies or 'easy' policies. Perhaps MY list can be disputed...but it needs to be disputed by providing BETTER alternatives that ARE more than just a band-aid. I can imagine the debates among the Native Americans in the 1600s to the late 1800s..."Should we try to keep these intruders out? Or make friends and accommodate them?" Could it be that no matter WHAT the decision, the result was inevitable? Is it now the case that this country has no choice? If so, the laws need to reflect that, and we need to quit spending money on enforcement and making people take chances walking across those deserts artbrooks describes. If we do that, we need to realistically confront the logistics implied by such a decision....like... how does fairly unlimited immigration affect this new health-care legislation? You can supply many other problems in education, housing, broadcasting... If we do NOT wish to accept the idea of free-for-all immigration, then someone needs to find GOOD answers to my list. If there are to be any limits, there must be some way to enforce those limits fairly...which means considering those waiting on LEGAL lines, as well as those who snuck in awhile back and were just lucky or good at hiding. Much of my life has been spent with civil-rights as a background theme. I WANT everyone to be happy, free, respected and comfortable...and I spent time in Mississippi in 1964 advocating for those whose ancestors were forcibly dragged FROM their native lands. I also have spoken out for those whose ancestral lands were invaded by....US... Now I have to decide how to think about 10s of millions who want to come here from Mexico and Central America. I am trained in philosophy, and I SEE the inconsistencies in applying both pragmatism and compassion in this situation....and it hurts! All that is why I said WAY back up there ^ that: "From: Bill D - Posts - PM Date: 28 Apr 10 - 02:25 PM Some of the various opinions I read above seem very thoughtful and reasoned...and, except in certain cases, very moral and civil......but some of them also start from some arbitrary position with embedded premises, and do not really address or account for some practical considerations." There is a concept in environmental policy called "carrying capacity"....it is just what is sounds like, the theoretical limits of what any system, large or small, can sustain on an ongoing basis. It can be applied to rats in a cage or to entire continents.....or to the entire planet. When my father teased my brother & I by asking ."If you were carrying all the feathers you could carry, could you carry one more?", he didn't begin to see all the implications. The problem is, we don't KNOW how many we can carry....and we don't know what may trigger major problems before the theoretical limit is reached. I don't drive way over the speed limit because the danger, from the law and my own reflexes, increases with speed. Some DO. Ask them how they decide. Ok....most of you quit reading this a long ways back...for those who are still here, or who have skipped to the end, just be aware that I try to insert all the disclaimers and qualifications and explanations I can reasonably (see?) manage in my opinions....and I am STILL not able to divert out-of-context objections. So be it. The population of Earth is now about 3 times what it was when I was born, and many of those people are not doing well and are unhappy where they are. There are no easy solutions to this. What this thread is about is only a subset of the overall situation. Think about it. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: John P Date: 29 Apr 10 - 01:38 PM I don't have a solution for the problem of illegal immigration, other than possibly bring home all the jobs our large corporations have been allowed to send overseas. If there were plenty of jobs for US citizens, maybe immigration wouldn't be such a problem. I do have a solution for the state of Arizona directing all police officers to stop anyone they think might be an illegal. All we need to do is, every time they stop a citizen without probable cause, sue the officer, the law enforcement agency, and the state of Arizona. |
Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens? From: artbrooks Date: 29 Apr 10 - 01:46 PM 100 |