BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:15 PM

Shall we call you Dean Firth?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:09 PM

Bravo, Don! You've solved the whole mess in just a couple simple steps! : ) *g*

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:52 PM

Also, I said this morning that court challenges would probably result in a stay of enforcement of the Arizona law.

I would guess this will happen without a Supreme Court decision.

Do we have any expert testimony on whether this is so--or not?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:51 PM

What the hell, Rig and pdq, let's cut to the chase here!

Why don't we just round up everyone who looks like they might not belong here (you know, dark skin, they talk funny) and whisk them off to concentration camps?

Concentration camps will need a lot of guards, so that will help solve the unemployment problem. We could employ even more people to build gas chambers and dig mass graves. . . .

If you're going to do it, quit pussyfooting around. Just DO it!!

Don (A Modest Proposal) Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:47 PM

Hey, Bill, the rest of us can "sigh" too.

But even you sometimes come up with straw men.   I don't know anybody who wants to have the situation "drift aimlessly" til it explodes.

The general consensus, aside from PDQ and Rig, seems to be:   path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. That is the foundation of our answer to the problem.

Unless I've missed something, your postings have mainly tended towards "this is a tough problem"--but no proposed solution.   The "solutions" proposed by other posters have been, to put it bluntly, recipes for disaster and or wildly impractical:   crack down hard on employers;   end birthright citizenship, etc.

We at least do have a proposed solution, which is not, by the way, "amnesty"--there would be stiff requirements (learning English, no criminal record except those "crimes" associated with illegal entry itself, etc.) which we went into back in 2007). Obviously the terms of the path to citizenship still need to be ironed out.

But what we need now is a true agreement among all those of good will that in fact the path to citizenship is the only long term solution for illegal immigrants now here. And we have to open the door to others from the outside a bit wider, so that the immigration which will happen anyway will be legal, not illegal.

Still haven't seen anything else remotely practical.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:57 PM

Bill D, you may be right that the enforcement of the law may be put on hold until all constitutional challenges have made their way through the court system. (I'm not confident that the same 5 SCOTUS justices who just overturned 100 years of precedent, plus the original intent of the Constitution, to allow unlimited campaign contributions from coporations will not somehow find a contorted argument for ruling this obscene law constitutional.)   
But some of this kind of harassment and persecution has already been going on, even before Brewer signed this law into effect. And it will probably get worse now that this law is on the books, even if it's challenged in court.

There may be situations in which "profiling" is warranted - e.g., if a robbery suspect is described as a tall white male with a beard, you look for people who kind of fit that description, not for short black women.    But even if the majority of illegal aliens in Arizona are from Mexico, that does not imply that even a large percentage of "Mexicans," much less of all "Hispanics," are illegal.    Targeting most "Hispanics" because most illegals are "Hispanic" is badly designed profiling - the kind that persecutes innocent people without really helping deal with crime.

Before a law like Arizona's would be fair or sensible, better, clearer criteria need to be established for what constitutes probable cause to suspect someone is illegal.   Not speaking English could be a component of such a profile but neither a sufficient nor a necessary one.    Being paid cash "under the table" for very sub-standard wages might be another component (in which case probably the employer needs to be investigated) too.
But I can't see why anyone who is minding his or her business and not violating any other laws should be stopped and required to prove they have legal resident status, except in the case of businesses suspected of hiring illegals so they can exploit workers.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:47 PM

*sigh* I have no interest in what Heather McDonald said... *I* doubt she is to be trusted to provide unbiased information....but that has no relation to what I was asking and concerned with.
It seems to be more important to pin pdq to some wall with 'error' written across his forehead ...or for him to get YOU on some point....than to address what I said...

Ok...carry on. I'll leave you all to it. I guess I should have realized it's just an Israel/Palestine game of "I can Google more statistics than YOU" game transferred to another topic.

Who me? Cynical... ☺...naawwww....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:41 PM

Even if the "95%" can be supported, a few other aspects:

Look where the "95%" is alleged to occur. Not on the actual border with Mexico, but in LA. LA is like many other large cities, with gang warfare. A possible theory is that the homicides are predominantly the result of gang activity--primarily killing each other. Information in gang killings is not easy to come by--and we are not even sure how diligently the police would pursue it.

If this is so, it is obviously not indicative of illegal immigrant activity in general--since as noted earlier, most illegal immigrants would want as little contact with the law as possible--for obvious, and already discussed, reasons. Gangs are not "typical" illegal immigrants.



This is all pure speculation--but the "95%" is a totally unsupported, practically meaningless number--so at this point it deserves speculation.

We can return to it if more context--and particularly source-- is provided.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:33 PM

pdq, you're ignoring most of the refutations and clarifications of those stats MacDonald states about homicides and illegals.   
By ignoring the word "outstanding" (and its implications) and by assuming too much about where "illegals" are from, you are reaching unwarranted conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:26 PM

Bill--


It's not "93% vs 95%" but the entire credibility of anything Heather McDonald says. I suspect PDQ would not especially like figures tossed out by, say, Keith Olberman, attributed to some other group.

Heather has, for instance written on the "controversy over so-called racial profiling".   Though racial profiling may not occur as often as Mudcatters think, it does exist.   Someone who denies it totally loses believability. She is plainly a polemicist.


Like Keith Olberman in a similar situation, at this point Heather has no credibility without backup. And if the 95% proves without foundation, PDQ's argument falls.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:10 PM

Out of vague curiosity, did anyone actually READ why I said back there? Or were you all too caught up in double-checking each other's detailed statistics and sources and bickering over arcane points of definition, as if showing something was 93% instead of 95% proved something in particular?

The law proposed in Arizona IS flawed, and will likely be wiped away before it ever goes into effect, and Ron is correct that Brewer is mostly just positioning herself politically......but the situation that allows anyone to PROPOSE such a law is gonna be with us indefinitely. Does anyone have any idea what to **DO**, even if this stupid law disappears in a few weeks?

There are several questions...should ANYONE be required to be able to prove who they are whenever a law officer thinks he has cause to inquire? Should ANY profiling be done for the purpose of enforcing immigration issues? By whom and under what circumstances? How should quotas, if any, be established? What should BE the criteria we use to even answer those questions?

   The answers to such questions are not obvious & automatic, but almost no one is asking the questions or addressing the actual situations that deal with the basic problems.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:00 PM

Sorcha,

What if you're stopped on the way to the passport office as you drive down to collect it?

Looks like a life of virtual reality for you ... unless you want to be deported ...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:57 PM

40% of all workers in L. A. County (L. A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.

Hmmm.....if they're working for cash, and they're working off the record with no paper trail or record, precisely HOW did the L.A. Times arive at this figure? Pull it out of their a$$, perhaps?

BOGUS!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:44 PM

Does this mean I need to carry my (expired) passport and birth cert in my wallet now? If so, I need new ones....

IMO, it just SUCKS!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:41 PM

all of that aside we cannot throw out the constitution period

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:31 PM

Also, particularly Genie's #4 is very germane--even if the 95% has any credibility, which is not yet established.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:28 PM

PDQ--your "source" is still Heather. Lacking credibility.   Also need context.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:24 PM

We are lucky to have journalists like Greg Palast.

btw he is not a liberal.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:21 PM

Dear Mr. Old Dude,
You said, "It is a terrible thing to think that anyone in America should have to show papers ... This is not pre WWII Germany."


Police already have the authority to demand that you identify yourself, including some proof of your identity when any kind of complaint is made against you. As for Germany, papers were demanded before, during and after the war. Since 9-11 I have had to show a driver's license every time I take my wife to work, not because I am a terrorist but because some nut wit thought it was going to be a deterrent to terrorists.

If the Arizona suspicion law is allowed to progress to other states, as Mr. Rigshitanslinger hopes, white nut wits will end up causing another unecessary war against America from within. Then the nit wits will cry, where is all our California produce?! Where is our lawn care guys?! Why are the normally peaceful hispanics now violent?! Hey, where's the maid?

The hardship of immigrants, with or without green cards, having to leave their children behind or having their wife or husband deported is already so outlandish that new repressive laws aimed at 1/30th of our population will be the straw that broke the donkey's back.

No, old dude this is not Nazi Germany, it is America with many people who do not even know when their brand of patriotism or fear is actually more fascist than freedom loving.

888888888888

Mr. Rigshitanslingit, wants MORE States to adopt the Arizona law. Perhaps he is right in that the law does not go far enough. Perhaps a suspicion of being an immigrant without papers is only a start.
The law should go farther and include being stopped for suspicion of being an Ass Hole. In which case Rig would be arrested at once.
If you think SUPER SIZING our suspicions by giving Police more powers of suspicion will solve anything regarding border control and immigration policy, then you are just plain superstitious and superstupid.


IF ANY OF YOU REALLY WANT MORE ARIZONA LAWS...consider this:

suspicion of being a non believer? been there done that.
suspicion of being a Jew? been there done that.
suspicion of being a socialist? been there done that.

suspicion of being hispanic? Let's see how this one turns out.

\DH 2010

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:21 PM

Again, the actual quote from Heather MacDonald's article is:

"In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens."

Read it again. It has not been properly quoted not reasonably refuted.

I would hope that any figure even close to 95% would bring shock and a bit of outrage at the carnage being inflicted on innocent people, citizens and non-citizens alike, but sadly I see no such outrage, just excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:06 PM

pdq, Brewer's office could easily have handed off to the Attorney General or other state officials to prosecute any criminals they'd found, if any had been found. And Robert Kennedy offered Pearce's office that he would see that any of these felons were arrested - publicly - if they would give him the names of any illegal aliens who had attempted to register to vote.   Nada.

You dismiss Palast because he is a liberal.   But he does solid investigative reporting and carefully cites his sources and facts.   The investigation he cites was done by Robert F Kennedy, Jr., who is also very credible (even though he is a [shudder] populist progressive).

Much of Heather MacDonald's testimony was extrapolation from stated facts, mischaracterization, and unwarranted assumption.   Nobody is disputing the allegations in the NY Times column just because of her politics; her allegations were followed up and found to be erroneous in many cases and merely speculative in others.

---
pdq: " In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens."

So, Genie, you think your posts have refuted that statement?

As has been pointed out,
MacDonald omitted the word "outstanding," further paraphrased, thus making it sound like 95% of "murders were committed by illegal aliens.

1) not all homicide is "murder"
2) not all suspects are actually guilty
3) outstanding warrants are for people who have not been apprehended -- e.g., if they have fled the area
4) illegals are more likely than US citizens to flee if wanted on suspicion of a crime -- EVEN IF THEY ARE INNOCENT -- because they are subject to fine, imprisonment, and/or deportation simply for BEING illegal residents.

Is it really surprising that a high percentage of the homicide SUSPECTS who are avoiding arrest are those who are here illegally?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 04:28 PM

Sorry, PDQ

1)   "95%".   No source given except Heather McDonald

2)   Heather McDonald:   scholar of the Manhattan Institute--very conservative group.   Possibly not immune to cherry-picking figures.   We need somebody with a bit more credibility as far as objectivity, e.g. WSJ article (not column).

Quoting her is just quoting a column. On this controversial topic, not good enough.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 04:27 PM

"So I asked Brewer's office, had she busted a single one of these thousands of allegedly illegal voters? Did she turn over even one name to the feds for prosecution?

No, not one."

That's silly. Jan Brewer was Secretary of State. The job of law enforcement is that of state Attorney General.

Besides, Palast is not a journalist, he is journalistic terrorist. As bad as Pilger.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 04:15 PM

Actually, the list I posted as "having appeared (at one time or another) in the Los Angeles Time" seems to have a reasonable base of fact.

The studies published by Heather MacDonald are important. An extensive article here but well worth reading:

                                                                     illegal immigration facts

"Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil' Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.'s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

Good luck finding any reference to such facts in official crime analysis. The LAPD and the L.A. city attorney recently requested an injunction against drug trafficking in Hollywood, targeting the 18th Street Gang and the "non–gang members" who sell drugs in Hollywood for the gang. Those non–gang members are virtually all illegal Mexicans, smuggled into the country by a ring organized by 18th Street bigs. The Mexicans pay off their transportation debts to the gang by selling drugs; many soon realize how lucrative that line of work is and stay in the business."

{a small part of article found a link above}

" In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens."

So, Genie, you think your posts have refuted that statement?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 04:05 PM

Pdq, Robert F Kennedy Jr followed up on Brewer's voter roll purge. Here's some of what he found:

Greg Palast, slate.com

[[In 2008, working for Rolling Stone with civil rights attorney Bobby Kennedy, our team flew to Arizona to investigate what smelled like an electoral pogrom against Chicano voters ... directed by one Jan Brewer.

… Beginning after the 2004 election, under Brewer's command, no less than 100,000 voters, overwhelmingly Hispanics, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, … one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected.

That statistic caught my attention. Voting or registering to vote if you're not a citizen is a felony, a big-time jail-time crime. And arresting such criminal voters is easy: after all, they give their names and addresses.

So I asked Brewer's office, had she busted a single one of these thousands of allegedly illegal voters? Did she turn over even one name to the feds for prosecution?

No, not one.

Which raises the question: were these disenfranchised voters the criminal, non-citizens Brewer tagged them, or just not-quite-white voters given the José Crow treatment, entrapped in document-chase trickery?

… [A] federal prosecutor … was sent … all over the Western mesas looking for these illegal voters. "We took over 100 complaints, we investigated for almost 2 years, I didn't find one prosecutable voter fraud case."

This prosecutor, David Iglesias, is a prosecutor no more. When he refused to fabricate charges of illegal voting among immigrants, his firing was personally ordered by the President of the United States, George W. Bush, under orders from his boss, Karl Rove.

Iglesias' jurisdiction was next door, in New Mexico, but he told me that Rove and the Republican chieftains were working nationwide to whip up anti-immigrant hysteria with public busts of illegal voters, even though there were none.

"They wanted some splashy pre-election indictments," Iglesias, [t]he former prosecutor, himself a Republican, [told me].

But Secretary of State Brewer followed the Rove plan to a T. The weapon she used to slice the Arizona voter rolls was a 2004 law, known as "Prop 200," which required proof of citizenship to register. ...

...

State Senator Russell Pearce, the Republican sponsor of the latest ID law, gave away his real intent, blocking the vote, when he said, "There is a massive effort under way to register illegal aliens in this country."

How many? Pearce's PR flak told me, five million. All Democrats, too. Again, I asked Pearce's office to give me their the names and addresses from their phony registration forms. I'd happily make a citizens arrest of each one, on camera. Pearce didn't have five million names. He didn't have five. He didn't have one. ]]

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:49 PM

Oh, and on the driver license issue, of course you can legally drive in a state or country with a valid driver license from another state or country (in most cases, anyway). How else would tourist vehicle traffic, interstate and international commerce, etc., flourish?

I'm saying you shouldn't be able to get a license to drive in Arizona if you can't demonstrate that you are legally entitled to live in that state at least on a short-term basis (such as a student Visa).   

That said, I have seldom in my life ever had to produce a copy of my birth certificate or a passport to deal with most government offices. I don't even think I've had to show one to get a voter registration card in a state where I was employed or a student.    I've had to show proof of residence and maybe age (not recently *G*) and maybe give my social security number, but that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:42 PM

In case the Snopes link ceases to work (as sometimes happens), here are just a few rebuttal and clarification points they made about the N Y Times list that was based mainly on Heather MacDonald's testimony before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Claims:

"1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card."

What portion of the 40% does that "predominantly" cover?   And what % of the illegals are Mexican or other Hispanics?
Many workers and small employers, including citizens, deal in cash to avoid paying various taxes.
Even then, workers do pay many taxes when they spend their $.

(Snopes) 'Studies in the early 1980s in Texas and New York concluded that the taxes paid by immigrants exceeded the cost of providing public services to them, but that the federal government got the surplus of taxes over expenditures, and local governments had deficits. Los Angeles did a study in 1992 that reinforced this conclusion.'


"2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens."

MacDonald's testimony was actually that 95% of OUTSTANDING HOMICIDE warrants (which includes involuntary manslaughter, self-defense, etc.) TARGETED illegal aliens.

(Snopes) Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) were for illegal aliens.
If these estimates are correct, it could be partly because illegals are more likely to flee the jurisdiction before their cases are adjudicated than legal residents are (not necessarily because they commit a far greater share of the homicides in Los Angeles).

It could also be, to some extent, selective prosecution. Many homicides are never solved, and being arrested for homicide does not prove guilt.


"3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens."

The Los Angeles Police Department's "Most Wanted" list generally does not immigration status or nationality, plus many entries refer to persons of unknown identity.

"4. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers."

CA Vital Records Dept. estimated that 62.7% (not "over ⅔") of births were classified as "Hispanic" in ethnicity - not "illegal" or "Mexican").
(Also, if Barack Obama is "African-American," then several of my nieces and nephews are "Hispanic" or "Asian," even though one of their parents is "white, non-Hispanic.")

"5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally."

The L.A. County Sheriff reported in 2000 that 23% of inmates in county jails were deportable aliens, not necessarily Mexican nationals.   
(Legal immigrants can be subject to deportation if convicted of a felony.
How many of them are in detention FOR the crime of being here illegally?)

"6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages."
   
(If it's known where they live, why is it so hard to arrest and deport them?)

"7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border."

No actual statistics are known, and the estimates we have are from the CA Dept. Of Justice, not the FBI, and mostly about one single Hispanic gang, not about street gangs in general.

"8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal."

(Again, if it's known that illegals are living in these properties, why aren't the INF folks on the case?)

"9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking."

Which says nothing about citizenship or legality of immigrant status.
Half the streets, towns, landmarks, rivers, mountains, etc. in the state of California have Spanish names. Same goes for those other Spanish-named states like Arizona and New Mexico.

"10. In L.A.County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish (10.2 million people in L.A.County)."   

How many are bilingual?

---
Most of the comments added here are excerpts or my summaries of information from the Snopes.com article. A few are my own observations.
Urban Legends Reference Pages © 1995-2010 by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:25 PM

pdq, you are wrong about the validity of the voter registration purges of people with Hispanic-sounding or African-American sounding names. Many legal, duly registered citizens of Arizona and Florida were, in fact, unfairly purged -- e.g., because they had the same name as, or a name similar to, someone else who was a convicted felon (even in another state) or a non-citizen.   Brewer and Harris put the burden of proof on the registered voter, plus the purges took place to close to the time of elections for the purged voters to be able to get the record corrected in time to vote in those elections. Some states have thus enacted laws prohibiting such voter registration list purges within several months of a major election.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:23 PM

I expect that the Arizona law would not have to be ruled unconstitutional by the
Supreme Court to stop it;   a lower court can stay enforcement of it, pending further litigation.

Perhaps a constitutional scholar among us can address this.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:11 PM

Genie--

That's an excellent point--that it is partly to intimidate Hispanic voters. I would expect however that enforcement of the Arizona law will be halted long before the election-- by the court challenges now being readied. Of course you can never assume anything--but I would think the unconstitutionality of the law should be clear to most observers--certainly the unreasonable searches aspect of it--especially given that there is no doubt that on occasion legal citizens will be caught up in this.

Even if enforcement of the law is not halted before the fall election, I would think and hope it could be made clear to all voters exactly what proof of citizenship is required to vote.   And if good old boys-- and girls--are only required to have an ID--say driver's license--or non-driver's license, which is what non-drivers now get-- then it should be possible to make sure that no other requirement than this is asked of other citizens.   Just on the chance that the law is still in effect in the fall, groups interested in Hispanics voting should make a major campaign between now and the fall to make sure that any citizen non-drivers have a non-driver's license. Further, they should be firmly assured that this will suffice in order to vote.   This should be done now, not later.


And even perhaps escorted to the polls, to make doubly sure the possible intimidation you speak of does not happen there.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:10 PM

Jan Brewer, while Secretary of State in AZ, "purged" the voter registration rolls of about 1 out of every 3 Hispanic-Americans, including many whose registrations were perfectly legal.

33% of "hispanics" living in Arizona are foreign-born. Brewer purged them from the voter rolls as she is required to by law. She did her job, nothing more.

As far as the "perfectly legal", you have no way to support that claim with fact.

"...Katherine Harris purged the Florida voter rolls of thousands of African-Americans' registrations in the fall of 2000.

Katherine Harris purged the voting rolls of convicted felons who had not yet restored their voting rights and people who were registered more than once. One guy was registered seven times.

She was required by law to make sure that voter rolls were not corrupted. She did her job.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 02:25 PM

Some of the various opinions I read above seem very thoughtful and reasoned...and, except in certain cases, very moral and civil......but some of them also start from some arbitrary position with embedded premises, and do not really address or account for some practical considerations.

One example...Ron Davies, whom I know personally and usually agree with, suggests "a path to citizenship" for illegals. Now, I have not interviewed any personally, but I know that... if *I* were in another country, wishing to get into the USA, but afraid to take the chance, and I heard that 'if you just hide well and hold out until they get tired of looking for you, they will eventually give in and grant you citizenship'...well, I would take that as an incentive to try it myself.
Sure...I see the temporary advantage in an amnesty/citizenship program....but the next time? I see no way being suggested to deal with the basic problem of controlling how many immigrants of ANY type we can absorb, no matter HOW desperate & decent they MAY be...not to mention how to juggle the demographic imbalances that will result.
I read homilies about how "this country was BUILT on immigrants", but I don't read anything about 'how to tell when it's full'. The situation NOW is just not the same as it was in 1700...or 1845...or even 1912!
   I am truly sympathetic when I read about the struggles of folks in poorer, developing countries....but the ultimate solution is NOT to just pack up and create colonies in other countries where it 'looks better'. Immigration to ANY country should be on a basis designed to absorb them in a manageable way, in education, health, employment...etc.
   Simply chanting slogans about 'unfair profiling' and 'making everyone carry papers' does nothing to address the basic issues. And putting pressure on politicians to 'vote THIS way about my relatives who are here illegally or trying to just creates awkward, patchwork laws which vary from state to state.

When I look at all these issues, I try to see it as if I was not personally involved with any of the people, laws, or situations..(as hard as that is to do). I try to find KEY issues in the flood of side issues which are so easy to shout about or put on signboards.. "We are human,too!"..."Justice for all!..."Who are U without us?"

I do NOT want to uproot families or cause businesses to struggle to replace workers, or deny opportunity to honest, deserving people! But neither do I wish to see this situation drift aimlessly until it erupts in chaos.

My father used to baffle us boys when we were 8-9 with the question..."If you were carrying all the feathers you could carry, could you carry one more?"
I still don't know the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 02:17 PM

Ron D, I agree that " this move is actually political positioning by Gov. Brewer," but I think the main reason is probably not just to win favor with Republicans and with anti-immigrant voters in general. This law is positioned to enable tens of thousands of Hispanic US citizens being disenfranchised this November, by being "challenged" at the polls -- or, more likely, by being intimidated into not showing up to vote at all.

Just as William Rehnquist made a name for himself within "conservative" circles back in the 1960s by "challenging" African-Americans' and Native Americans' right to vote, at the polls, many Republicans (including hired guns from out of state) will be at the polls to force anyone who "looks like they might not be legal" to show proof of citizenship (a voter registration card and driver license will not be sufficient).   Many people cannot take off time from work or child care long enough to go find the required documents, plus a notarized official copy of a birth certificate can cost over $100 (prohibitively expensive for poor people); and apparently this new law would might a would-be voter to actually be taken to the police station and booked, pending verification of their citizenship, just because they tried to vote.    Anyway, the fear of being harassed, fined, jailed, etc., just for trying to vote is likely to deter a lot of legally registered Hispanic Americans from voting.    That's the plan.

Even if the courts should rule this law unconstitutional -- and I'm really hoping the Roberts-Scalia-Alito-Thomas SCOTUS bloc doesn't get the chance to rule on that issue -- that won't happen till after the November 2010 elections.

Jan Brewer, while Secretary of State in AZ, "purged" the voter registration rolls of about 1 out of every 3 Hispanic-Americans, including many whose registrations were perfectly legal.   Just as Katherine Harris purged the Florida voter rolls of thousands of African-Americans' registrations in the fall of 2000.   

Make no mistake about it, this is a primary purpose of this new "anti-illegal-immigrant" law.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:26 PM

It makes sense that if someone doesn't have permission to live in a place that they shouldn't have permission to drive in that place.

Bang goes the international long-haul trucking business right there. The consequences would make the Iceland volcano look like peanuts.

Surely this Arizona law is flagrantly in violation of the Fourth Amendment? How did anybody ever come to take it seriously for more than a few seconds?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:43 PM

And may I point you to the Snopes findings? "Origin: The various figure quoted above were not taken from a 2002 Los Angeles Times article. They appear to have been gleaned from a variety of sources and vary in accuracy as noted below:"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM

Ebbie, read what I said, not what you want to see:

                                     (All 10 of the above facts were published in the Los Angeles Times)

Can we assume that you are not outraged at the crime and carnage in LA?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:04 PM

pdq, you appear to be getting lazy. See this:
Some true, some not


http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:48 AM

In 1941 this country rounded up Japanese Americans and put them in prison. Why, because they were Japanese and we were at war. Decades later we cannot apologize enough, we cannot believe that we could do this to our own people.   So do we not learn anything from history? ... apparently not !!

Now there are plenty of laws on the books for enforcing illegal immigration ... so enforce it ... but this act is nothing more than a return to a dark and sad time in our history. More and more I see the Bill of Rights going down the tubes in the name of security. Exactly what Franklin warned against ... we better start learning from mistakes but sadly it seems like we just keep making more of them

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:53 AM

PDQ

What's your point exactly? Theat illegal people end up outside the law?

:-(

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:30 AM

For the who like to quote the Los Angeles Times, here you go:


                                                                   From the L. A. Times:

1.   40% of all workers in L. A. County (L. A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.

2.   95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3.   75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.   

4.   Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5.   Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6.   Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
                                       
7.   The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
                                       
8.   Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
                                       
9.   21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish-speaking.
                                       
10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish. (There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County.)

                                 (All 10 of the above facts were published in the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare. Over 70% of the United States' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida and New York) results from immigration. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens .

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:25 AM

Now both Utah and Arkansas are talking of doing the same thing. It's about time.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:17 AM

Like Canada and Britain, the United States is a "common law" country, where the state cannot, under normal circumstances, require an individual to prove his/her identity unless s/he is doing something that requires a licence from the state, such as driving a motor vehicle.

"Civil code" countries, such as France, Germany, Spain and Mexico, are different in this respect, which is why such countries issue national identification cards that their citizens and resident aliens are required to carry.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:11 AM

An interesting dynamic recently. In town a Mexican family had a child who came down with a serious illness. The whole town came out like gang busters to help. Fund raising, donations etc.   Yet if you go to a coffee shop you will hear the same people say " all the people hopping the border yada yada". What is the difference, One is looked at as our neighbour and our friends, why? because we know them. The other is some nameless face perhaps. Now any nation has the right to secure their borders, not only for safety reason but for economic reasons and provide a vehicle for lawful entry ... fair enough, enforce the laws. But dollars to donuts if you tried pulling the paper stuff on these good people that were just helped the cry of foul would echo to the highest office from this town. Yet the same people without thinking would say good idea when reading this paper work law .... I can only think that when it affects those we know, major issue with it, but if it is a nameless face ... ok fine .. well it is not fine. The folks wanting it , are not just not thinking and I do understand their frustration of lack of law enforcement ... but this is not the answer

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:11 AM

Vacation Arizona,
but bring a birth certificate.


If arrested for not having proof of citizenship, the fine includes a $500 fine. This is equivalent to the fine for running a red light in Los Angelas.

That is alot for leaving your wallet in your other pants.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:54 AM

It is a terrible thing to think that anyone in America should have to show papers ... This is not pre WWII Germany. This is not what this country is about or was founded on ... verification while crossing international borders yes ... but stopping people at will ... Not in America.

Any country has the right to secure their borders ... so secure the borders but you do not single people out at random ... If you give up one of your rights you give up all of them.   Ben Franklin said it best that any nation that gives up its freedom for more security ... Has neither.

When laws are broken, laws should be enforced .. but do it according to the Constitution of the United States. Not by some third world policy or we will wake up to a country we no longer recognize

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:07 AM

In fact, as has been noted before in other threads, anybody truly interested in the welfare of American workers, and not just trying to use this idea as a smokescreen for his own prejudice would, if he thought clearly about the problem, be in favor of a path to citizenship for illegal aliens.    It is obvious why:    if illegal immigrants are driving down wages for legal workers, the reason is that employers know they can pay below minimum wage, and the workers dare not complain for fear of deportation.   If all illegals were made legal, they could blow the whistle on any employer paying below minimum wage, or otherwise mistreating them.

It is also clear that the alleged concern with overpopulation, particularly as it affects the environment, is a facade for prejudice. Much current environmental degradation in the border area is caused by illegal immigration and by the current fence, planned to be extended. Both of these problems would be addressed by making illegal immigration legal immigration. Also it is a historical truism that first generation immigrants often have big families--but with education and more prosperity immigrants realize their quality of life is better with smaller families. And succeeding generations take this to heart. So extrapolation of large immigrant families into the future is not justified.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:11 AM

As you probably know, there are many--legal--Hispanics in Nevada. Sen Reid realizes he desperately needs their votes. So he is pushing for a comprehensive bill dealing with illegal immigration, and most definitely including a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants.   Like Gov Brewer, he will be able to say to the group whose votes he is angling for, that he did everything in his power to get it done now.

The difference of course, is that Sen Reid's approach, besides helping him politically, is the right thing to do. Gov. Brewer's is dead wrong.

We've been over this several times before.   Without a path to citizenship, no illegals will come out of the shadows. Nor would any other rational person. Any suggestion that the 11 million illegal immigrants can--or even should--return to "country of origin" is perfectly senseless.    They do many jobs Americans do not want.   Many have been here so long that "country of origin" is a feeble joke.

It is also pointless to suggest a crackdown on employers.   Many illegal immigrants are employed in the agricultural sector. A crackdown, particularly in border states, will only encourage them to move their operations elsewhere--Mexico is an obvious choice.   Yet supposedly those who yell loudest to crack down on employers are also complaining about jobs leaving the US.

The idea of changing current birthright citizenship is, like others of the so-called "anti-amnesty" group, a recipe for disaster.    Anybody who doubts this should look at France recently, which has a large group of young people who are not citizens--and therefore feel no stake in the success of the country--in fact, since jobs for them are hard to come by, they are prone to violent protest.

It is also a canard to suggest that illegal immigrants are responsible for much violent crime--for the obvious reason that they do not want to call attention to themselves, and therefore would tend to try to keep any interest of the law in them to a minimum. I have read, I believe (but can't locate the source right now) that for instance I believe it's El Paso, close to the Texas-Mexico border, has in fact one of the lowest rates of crime.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:44 AM

It's fairly evident that this move is actually political positioning by Gov. Brewer.   Arizona, like some other states, is facing a deficit.    Gov. Brewer has indicated she might be open to raising some taxes.   This of course is anathema to the Right---which of course includes huge numbers of Republicans.   In order for her to win the tough Republican primary coming up soon, she had to try to win back conservatives (and reactionaries).   By signing this bill, she has in fact done this.

It's also fairly evident that this law will not stand. Court challenges will stop it. So Gov. Brewer will be able to say to the Right:   "Look, I did what I could on this issue."

It does force the President's hand to try to do something about a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants, an issue he had not planned to deal with this year. Of course this is also partly due to pressure from Sen Reid, also facing a strong challenger, this time in the fall election.

More later.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:20 AM

Gee, the Los Angeles Times estimates there were 10.8 million illegal aliens in the U.S. in 2009, down from 11.6 million in 2008. The total population of the U.S. is about 307 million.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Lox
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:09 AM

On the issue of driving licenses,

It makes sense that if someone doesn't have permission to live in a place that they shouldn't have permission to drive in that place.

In response to the point that illegals will drive with or without a license, I don't see how this is an argument for issuing illegals with driving licenses. Surely it questions whether there is any point?

Finally, if someone is driving without a license then they will be "checked out" whether they are legal or not.

If in the process it is discovered that they are an illegal, then that is helpful to the immigration services and cuts down on beaurocracy and money spent trying to police illegal immigration does it not?


In response to PDQ - so you think fighting wars for a place gives you a legitimate claim to it? So China's war in tibet gave it legitimacy there? japans conquest of south east asia at the start of WWII gave it legitimacy there?

What a load of old cobblers.

I suspect that your uneducated approach has less to do with mexican pupils in your class and more to do with your inability to process information and preference to cling to preconception and prejudice.

How many mexicans were there lowering the standards of your school so much that you produce so much ignorant bile now?