BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:03 AM

I `ad that Sitting Bull in my cab the other day. I could tell `e was a bit miffed, `is `eaddress was all cockeyed and `is toma`awk was a bit blunt.
I said, "Whats up Chief?. You look like you`ve been to a pow-wow and somebody`s nicked the Pipe of Peace"
`e said, "Jim, I`ve just been looking at that Mudcat and you wouldn`t believe the claims some of `em are making. They reckon that since some of your lot came over in the 1700`s and `ad a few bundles they`ve got the right now to say comes in".
I said, "Seems reasonable to me, `fraid that`s showbizz. Might is Right and all that".
`e said, "Showbizz! My lot `ave been `ere since Adam was a boy but nobody listened to us when we kicked up a fuss!!".

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:32 AM

millions of illegal immigrants Really? Millions? I think that is probably a bit exaggerative.

My father (whose antecedents predate and served in the Revolutionary War) who served in US Army during WWII and South Korea twice would be terribly ashamed of this turn of events. What the hell did he fight for?

What Rowan said about apartheid - I agree.

If the greedy corporate capitalists had kept manufacturing industry going in the USA instead of moving it overseas where labour is cheaper, do you think anybody would be complaining about illegal immigrants coming in to do the dirty work no one wants to do?

Maybe you will think again when you spread that jam on your toast and pour your orange juice tomorrow morning - who picked the fruit and were they even permitted bathroom breaks while they worked.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:00 AM

In the trucking incident reported above, as it is being reported by "trucking industry news" commentators, the driver showed his CDL (commercial driver's license) which is supposed to require a background check comparable to what is supposed to be required in most states for school bus drivers, private investigators, child care operators, etc; but additionally showed his HAZMAT certification (Hazardous Material Transport) which can only be obtained from the Fed, and which requires a background check comparable to what "used to be" sufficient for clearance to access US SECRET information and materiel.

The Gestapo detained him until his wife obtained birth certificates for them both and delivered them to where he was being held. (They had threatened to sieze and deport her if she arrived without her own birth certificate.)

Unless she has travelled outside the US and has a current Passport, it's unlikely that the governMess of Arizona has "proof of citizenship" that would be satisfactory under those terms.

While I haven't seen recent statistics, fewer than 20% or so of US citizens even have a "birth certificate" to show according to fairly recent reports, since most states send a "certificate of registration" (if anything) to parents when a child is born, which has no more legal standing than a newspaper clipping. In some places, all one gets is a "form letter" from the doctor/hospital where the birth took place - again no more "legal" than a clipping from a church newsletter.

A separate request must be made to obtain a notarized COPY of the officially registered birth certificate that would be acceptable as a "legal proof" for most purposes; and few people bother getting one until they run into some special circumstance where it's needed.

NOBODY in the US has an "original" birth certificate in their possession, since the "original" is not valid until it's registered with, and held by, the state. No "original" is ever released, so the best anyone can do is a copy. Some states don't even send a copy, but at best will only provide a "certification" that an original is on file.

John

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:32 AM

Art (et al.), I'm undecided about the driver license for illegal immigrants thing.    I know I had to show my birth certificate to get my first driver license and I've usually had to give my Social Security number -- which I would not have had if I had not been a legal resident.    (Yes, documents can be forged, but that's a whole nuther topic.)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:29 AM

@ pdq - "

Just for the record, Mexico requires that all visitors carry papers and show them if asked.

Federal law in the US probably requires the same, but we do not enforce such laws."

The US may technically require that of all visitors -- I don't know, but when I lived in Canada I was not required to carry my passport or proof of landed immigrant status with me. But we do not require that citizens carry such proof when travelling within the US.

Mexico probably does not require their citizens to do so either.

It's not only damned inconvenient to carry such documents on your person at all times, but it poses great risk of loss or theft of those important proofs of identity and legal status.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:57 AM

This New Mexico legislation makes me worried from a number of perspectives.
From my 25 years of experience as a Federal investigator, I cringe at the idea of state and local law enforcement officers usurping the enforcement of something that is clearly a federal issue. Local officers don't know the ins and outs of immigration law. Federal officers tend to target the "coyotes" who guide hundreds of illegals across the border. Interference from local authorities can destroy Federal operations that work on a larger scale. If Federal agents aren't doing their job, then fix the problem there instead of replacing them with vigilantes.

The Fourth Amendment prohibits "illegal search and seizure," and generally prohibits police from stopping people who give no indication of involvement in criminal activity. What indication does a person give that he/she is legal or illegal? Physical appearance and language are the only attributes, and many Arizona-born citizens look and speak just like Mexicans. What's going to protect them from being stopped by police, time and time again? If you're a white American, how many times have you been stopped by police? How would you feel if you were stopped several times a year, just to check your papers?

It seems to me than in service of preserving ethnic purity in the State of Arizona, this law sacrifices the freedom and privacy of all citizens. If Arizona truly intends to enforce this law equitably, I certainly hope that police officers stop and inspect a number of white Arizonans, in proportion to the percentage of Anglos in the general population. And if those Anglos don't have papers, they should be treated the same as Mexicans.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Janie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:54 AM

PDQ, on the maternal side, my Caucasian ancestors arrived in this country in 1704. On the paternal side, my Cherokee and Iroquois ancestors arrived pre-history, and the Caucasians arrived in 1735. If longevity of family lines in this country is your criteria for who has the "right" to decide, then I just trumped you.

From within my own paradigm, I reject your assertion that longevity of lineage within the political borders of a country automatically confers special rights or privileges to me or to my descendants. But suppose I did share your view. With rights comes responsibility. I see no evidence of you assuming the intellectual responsibility to think through the implications for you or your descendants of the various potential consequences, intended and otherwise, of the different ways in which those rights might be exercised.

I don't think there is any person on Mudcat who would argue that we do not have significant issues to deal with regarding immigration.

You present as a caricature. I'm never sure if you are simply amusing yourself by trolling, or if you are an otherwise bright person who choses comfortable ignorance and complacency, or a fearful person clinging to some illusion that you think might provide safety if you can only make the illusion real.




Whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:39 AM

"Actually, denying drivers licenses to illegal aliens encourages them to got back to where they belong. "

What planet are you from? They will drive regardless of any licence - as do many in Australia whose licence has been cancelled for drink driving, as well as other offence which disallow them from possessing a licence, such as certain medical conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:30 AM

You can't possibly believe that? It encourages them to drive without a license. If they don't care if they're here illegally, why the fuck would they care if they're driving illegally?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:18 AM

Actually, denying drivers licenses to illegal aliens encourages them to got back to where they belong.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:05 AM

Genie, I disagree about drivers licenses. Those are, or should only be, proof that a person knows how to drive. Denial of them to illegal immigrants only results in people driving who aren't licensed and don't know what they are doing. Use of them as a substitute for an identification card because the US is unwilling to issue such a thing is counterproductive. I was tailended several years ago by a woman with no license, no insurance, no registration...and no habla.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:11 PM

I note you ignore the fact that you were wrong about the I-9s.

You can cut and paste this:

You're right, I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:09 PM

Just for the record, Mexico requires that all visitors carry papers and show them if asked.

Federal law in the US probably requires the same, but we do not enforce such laws.

The states are tired if waiting and one has acted, others will follow.

My family has been for this country since 1789 and fought in seven wars, died in five.

We have earned the right to say who comes here and who does not.

If there is going to be a war, the sooner the better. If we do nothing, we have already lost.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:03 PM

The federal government requires all employers to fill in an I-9 for each new employee. They MUST verify that the employee has the legal right to work in the United States.

pdq, you're full of shit.

Having to show citizenship papers when stopped by the cops, however, is a hallmark of such wonderful, freedom-loving countries as the USSR and communist China. And the Teabaggers hate the Democrats? Total nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:58 PM

In any event, it's an environmental issue, and Jan Brewer is on the side of history.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:57 PM

Oh, but, pdq, I have heard that employers in AZ are using the required e-verification procedure only about 6% of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:55 PM

pdq, you are wrong about employers not being allowed to check legal immigrant status.   (And who the heck said anything about asking about sexual preference, race, national origin, medical history, etc.?)

Arizona already has a law requiring employers to do an e-verification of employment eligibility status of prospective employees.

A lot of other states do too.   Why do you think we issue Green Cards?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:45 PM

Bring this one on!!!

I mean, yeah, there's alot of hatred of primarially Hispanics (evidenced by pdq's post above) but let's get real here... In the 90's when everyone was employed and all cylandars were a'workin' we didn't hear any of this anti-immigrant crap we hear now...

It's kinda similar to our own history of slavery.... Yeah, as long as black folks as slaves were building the infastructure of this country all was peachy and we didn't hear all this "Well, them people is some bad peoples"...

But let time get a little tight and we get this same blame game from the same folks... We all know who they are... Top of the list is Redneck Nation which is always ready to vamp on anyone who don't look like them and who think that watching cars drive around in a circle is, ahhhh, entertainment... Yeah, these folks top the list...

But's it's more than just Bubba... It's alot of folks out there who just plainly don't like people who are different than them... And these folks ain't the NASCARers but they are no less predudice, regardless of their stations in life...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:37 PM

"Number 1 would be cracking down on employers who hire illegals -- "

Fine, but the employer has done nothing wrong!

In fact, it is illegal for an employer to ask citizenship status, national origin, sexual preference, medical history, and a host of other items.

To do so could result in a federal felony conviction and/or a huge fine.

No, the feds must stop illegals at the border or the states will take charge. Arizona first, Utah second, hopefully Nevada will be next.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:28 PM

Number 1 would be cracking down on employers who hire illegals -- especially the big companies that do so.   Make the fines stiff enough to be a deterrent and, in the case of flagrant or repeat violations, put some executives in jail.

Second, strengthen labor unions. Make it harder for employers to harass, intimidate or penalize employees for trying to organize workers.   "Card check" would be a good start.

Third, make it harder to get a driver license without proof of legal residency and maybe make the documents harder to fake.

As for the illegals lowering our academic standards, I'm not convinced they bear much responsibility for that.   The US schools' graduates lag far behind those of many other developed countries, even in areas where there are not a lot of immigrants.   And immigrants who want to become citizens often know far more about the US constitution and US history than a lot of native-born Americans do.

And you're right: various very powerful interests do want the illegals here.   Primarily the big corporations and anyone else who wants to drive down wages.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:23 PM

When I saw the new of this on Oz TV my immediate thought was, "Ah, the South African apartheid passbook system rises its head. Again."

CHeers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: pdq
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:18 PM

"There are better and fairer ways to deal with the problems of illegal immigration."

So, why don't you explain exactly what they are?

Many US citizens have been waiting 30 years or more for the federal government to do something about the millions of illegals driving on our roads, taking our jobs and lowering the academic standards of our schools. Not to mention the explosion of drugs and crime.

All we get is inaction and various forms of name-calling and finger-pointing. Many of us think that various vested interests actually want the illegals here.

Subject: BS: 'Your papers, please' - for US citizens?
From: Genie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 09:40 PM

I know there's another thread about Jan Brewer, but not everyone knows who she is, and this incident happened before she signed into law Arizona's new requirement that law enforcement officials MUST ask for and obtain proof of legal residency when they have any reason to suspect that someone might be in the state illegally.

This indicent illustrates how obtrusive and potentially costly it can be, even for US citizens,
if it is against the law not to carry things like a passport or birth certificate with you at all times.

Video: AZ Truck driver forced to show birth certificate claims racial-profiling

[[The shape of things to come? Sure looks like it. And this incident happened before Gov. Jan Brewer signed the SB1070 into law on Friday. Video and story from AzFamily.com.

PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

He tells 3TV, "I don't think it's correct, if I have to take my birth certificate with me all the time."

3TV caught up with Abdon after he was released from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in central Phoenix. He and his wife, Jackie, are still upset about what happened to him.

Jackie tells 3TV, "It's still something awful to be targeted. I can't even imagine what he felt, people watching like he was some type of criminal."

Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver's license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.

An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.

Jackie explains, "I have his social security card as well and mine. He's legit. It's the first time it's ever happened."

Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option. ]]

Why should a US citizen be required to carry more than a valid driver license when at work driving a vehicle?    If the law enforcement officials have reason to suspect the driver license is fake, why should the "suspect" not be allowed a reasonable time period, e.g., 72 hours, to produce better documentation?   

Being arrested can, in and of itself, keep you from getting some jobs in the future, even if you are acquitted or the charges dropped.   And having your work day interrupted while you go to the police station to deal with the charges can lead to major inconvenience, loss of income during that time, and perhaps loss of a job.

This is the sort of harassment that will probably become standard operating procedure under Arizona's new law.

There are better and fairer ways to deal with the problems of illegal immigration.