BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties

Subject: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 10 - 04:16 PM

Gareth Malone of choir fame is doing a prog about work songs & shanties right now on BBC4.

g

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Joe G
Date: 07 May 10 - 04:58 PM

Brilliant programe - folk music being taken seriously! - repeated later tonight

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:06 PM

So enmjoyable, and it included at least 4 people I know personally. Quite eerie in a way.
Well worth a watch though.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:14 PM

Shoals of Herring a Scottish song? Written by that wel known son of Salford James Miller (aka Ewan MacColl)

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Tradsinger
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:15 PM

Good programme, well presented. The only cringe moment was calling "Shoals of Herring" a Scottish song. However, I felt that presenter engaged well with the subject and was genuinally impressed with what he heard.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:36 PM

Funnily enough, the Scottish reference to Shoals of Herring got up my nose too. They should ask someone, shouldn't they.

g

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:43 PM

Yup, nice programme! I thought there was going to be a traditional Martin and Norma moment in Robin Hood's Bay but no such luck.

When "Shoals of Herring" surfaced I shouted WHAAAAT?? at the telly and nearly caused my daughter to knock her laptop over. Actually I'm waiting for "Poor Ditching Boy" and "Beeswing" to be written up in a thesis.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: 8_Pints
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:43 PM

What surprised me was that there was no mention of Stan Hugil!

Didn't see the Researcher's name in the credits: perhaps they dispensed with his/her services...

Bob

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:59 PM

Who is Malone? He seemed very uninformed and naive. I was surprised to hear THAT verse from "Johnny come down to Hilo" though - even in bowdlerised form.

Surely the programme also erred in treating shanty as a UK form, and it failed to note the distinction between a shanty and a forebitter, and repeatedly misused the expression "folksinger" when it should have said "folksong singer".

But glad it was done. Nice to see some of the faces with whom one has damaged ones voice late at night in various festival bars...

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 May 10 - 06:05 PM

Has anyone heard the Sheringham Shantymen? They raise a lot of money for the RLNI. I had hoped to hear a bit about them on the programme. Have spent many happy lunchtimes during the Pottie Festival in Sheringham listening to their performance down by the sea there. Most of them are lifeboatmen or fishermen, so their singing has a genuine feel.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 10 - 06:33 PM

They missed a great opportunity considering the only trad version of 'Three Score and Ten' was recorded from The Filey Fishermen's Choir.

Eliza 'Most of them are lifeboatmen or fishermen, so their singing has a genuine feel.'
Curious, Why? Do lifeboatmen and fishermen do much singing nowadays?
Obviously the choirs do. Would a lifeboatman be any more 'genuine' singing a chanty than say a bank clerk or a teacher?

I applaud the concept of the programme and hope it engenders some interest in the subject. A really historic and accurate programme on chanties and their background would make a cracking programme IMHO.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 May 10 - 06:49 PM

L rather meant that these men know the sea and its dangers so well that they feel an affinity with the subjects of the songs. They are singing about disasters and hardships which they themselves have experienced.The Norfolk coast is still very dangerous. Many of the group are elderly and have been on lifeboat crews, and seen tragedies at first hand. Their grandfathers etc. perhaps lost their lives to the sea. I have noticed tears in the eyes of the older ones when they sing, I find it very touching.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Joe G
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:01 PM

I must admit I was puzzled by the Shoals of Herring reference and thought maybe I had got it wrong!

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: JeffB
Date: 07 May 10 - 07:43 PM

Actually Richard, the distinction between shanties and forebitters was noted, though the word "forebitters" wasn't used. Jim Mageean said something to effect that shanties were used strictly for work and only other songs were sang off-duty (or maybe he said "ashore"). I think your point about treating shanties as if they are a peculiarly English song-form is good comment, and makes me wonder why the script wasn't run past someone with a bit of knowledge before going to air. Perhaps they didn't want things to get too complicated, but a sentence or two about the international influences would not have been out of place.

Well, we are bound to all have our little quibbles. Considering that songs relating to the sea is a huge subject, the programme got round most aspects pretty well and in a sympathetic and engaging way. I thought the weakest part was at the beginning when someone (whose name I missed - would have been nice if the director had put in subtitles with people's names, which I think would have been only courteous) tried to get the crew of a brig to sing a shanty while bracing-up in the Solent. A brave attempt, but for me it showed that we sing shanties about four times faster than would have been practical.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 May 10 - 12:13 AM

Not only is Richard right about shanties not being an exclusively English song-form, but from what I know they were an excellent vehicle for cross-cultural transfer, what with many of the commercial crews being a mix of nationalities etc. Indeed, 20 years ago when we lived in the Netherlands and my son was going to primary school, I was most surprised one evening when he came out with a couple of shanties I could have sworn were English - in Dutch.

I agree that they missed a trick if they made no mention of Stan Hugill. I have seen some great videos of him both singing and explaining the background of songs & shanties.

I missed the BBC4 programme thanks to a recent addiction/affliction to Ashes to Ashes but will catch up as soon as they put it up on iPlayer.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 May 10 - 12:40 AM

I really enjoyed this programme. Lets hope that as it's been well received, the Beeb will be encouraged to explore further. Thank God for BBC 4, that's all I can say!

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 May 10 - 03:01 AM

There is a little bit of Stan singing in the background of the film, but strange not to mention the worlds last genuine shantyman when so much information about him is available.

I love the song ' Shoals of Herring ' and cringe everytime the Irish claim it, and bugger me now the Scots as well.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 May 10 - 03:48 AM

Well I for one, am amazed and pathetically grateful, that they did a whole programme about shanties at all.
So they got Shoals of Herring wrong, and we all shouted at out TV's and felt superior, but ask yourself this. When was the last time you heard/saw this [or any other]folk song, sung on TV in a serious context?
It's one small step for shanties, one giant leap for TV


Please don't bother letting me know your views on whether Shoals of Herring is a folk song or not. Life is tedious enough at the moment, with all the politics on TV.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Marje
Date: 08 May 10 - 04:07 AM

I enjoyed it immensely. Yes, Gareth came across as a bit naive, but that's how he is. He knows a lot more than he lets on about singing (mostly classical), and is curious to explore shanty singing, which to him is new and different. In this, he probably speaks for many of the viewers, who know little or nothing of shanties, so he's a good choice of presenter.

I thought some of his observations were quite sensitive and perceptive, e.g. when he commented that the singers were, in most cases, not "performing", but singing for themselves and each other, and really immersing themselves in the sense of what the songs are about. This is, of course, characteristic of much traditional singing, but it's a novel idea to a classically trained singer.

I liked the way the programme attempted to sing the songs in their original contexts, even if the efforts to do so were somewhat contrived. And it was good to see the topic extended to women's songs and sailors' hymns, rather than just lusty seafarers' work-songs. Pity we got "South Australia" twice, when there are so many songs out there, but I'll forgive them for that.

Marje

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: John J
Date: 08 May 10 - 04:39 AM

BBC iPlayer

Just started listening / watching online.

JJ

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: doc.tom
Date: 08 May 10 - 04:41 AM

One or two minor cringes, yes, but probably less cringe than any other TV programme I have seen concerning folk song and tradition in these countries of ours since 'The Future of Things Past'!

So they missed Stan - but they had him singing. They picked one group rather than another - they could hardly get them all in. They omitted the internationalism of the medium - but they only had one programme and had to communicate to a general public that is totally ignorant.

Good on BBC4 - write or ring or e-mail and tell them so.

TomB

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Dave (Bridge)
Date: 08 May 10 - 04:55 AM

Yes it was a great programme and I am proud to have been present at one of the recordings. However, climbing that b****y lighthouse staircase was a chore and a half. So there were little things not quite right, so what? It got 'folksong singing' into a wider public space. I think it was a great mix and covered a wide spectrum in such a short space of time. Well done BBC 4 and all concerned

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: buddhuu
Date: 08 May 10 - 06:07 AM

Very nice to see.

May I second TomB's suggestion that we all email/write to the BBC to express our enjoyment and enthusiasm? Surely a good response may encouage them to consider more of the same in future.

The 'Points of View' messageboard is one place to leave comments (registration required).

I know registerin on sites s a bit of a chore, but surely this is a good case worthy of a minute of our time! ;-)

If anyone can find other ways to feedback to the Beeb, perhaps you could share them here.

The more positive reaction they get, the more chance they'll believe that there's a worthwhile audience for this stuff.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 May 10 - 06:32 AM

Bloody good job by the sound tech to get such results whils on board various vessels....

Was amused by the into wittering on about a the 'Englishness' of shanties, only to have the first song 'In south Australia I was born'!

Gareth is obviously a child of classical training, he looked far too fey and nesh to be ripping his hands to shreds hauling ropes but fair dos to him for having a go! The look on his face at certain points when listening to various groups was worth it - the slightly stunned look that classically trained performers get when they hear an untrained and amateur group singing in perfect harmony with no direction, for the sheer pleasure of doing it. Get him to a few singarounds at certain festivals and he might just get the hang of it!

LTS

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: goatfell
Date: 08 May 10 - 06:44 AM

I watched the programme and it was good the shoals of herring was great and yes it was written by Ewan McColl, who claimed to Scottish but as you say was born in England to Scottish Parents.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 May 10 - 06:50 AM

I thought guest posts were allowed on music threads ?
Even though they were gormless!

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 08 May 10 - 07:33 AM

Despite all the minor shortcomings mentioned in th ethread thus far - it was nice to expose the average Joe & Joan to these songs , in fact one such, who has no interest in Folk Song (but he knows that I do) took the trouble to tell me he had been watching before he came into the pub last night and remarked that he'd really enjoyed it.
Little acorns perhaps !!!!!!

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: John J
Date: 08 May 10 - 08:18 AM

I agree with you whole-heartedly Betsy!

Let's hope the Beeb and others continue to cover folk stuff.

JJ

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 May 10 - 08:28 AM

Saw it last night.
Very informative and not all slick fluff.
What a documentary should be. A rare beast on even the BBC these days.
Gareth set-out his stall. He was a choral conductor with a passion to find-out more about things that intrigued him from his youth. Not a shanty singer, per se, and not a grafter. And not a mere observer neither.

I fully intended to go back and confirm suspicians that Ewen McColl was not credited, but Hey Ho! Ewen would have loved to be considered traditional.
cf
From the singing of Jimmy Miller?

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 10 - 08:41 AM

Very, very good indeed. I had also just finished Colin Irwins 'In Search of Albion' and it tied in nicely with the proposition that Folk music is the true music of these isles and as such we should be proud of it. I like to think of it as our own 'soul' music, but then again people do say I am crackers:-)

Yes, I noticed the Shoals of Herring reference but decided that as Ewan was doing hos best to be Scottish at the time it was written I could forgive them that. I was more surprised to see Joe Stead taking a background role in the Kimber's Men piece - You can't normaly shut Joe up! In the nicest possible way if you see this, Joe:-P Maybe that is why they kept him out of it!

Trouble is, although it is very good to see more about Folk on TV, I don't think we should let it get too popular. Imagine if Simon Cowell got hold of it... :-S

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 10 - 08:58 AM

"Ewen would have loved to be considered traditional."
Actually, he wouldn't - he was always specific about what was traditional and what wasn't. Neither Shoals of Herring nor The Fish Gutters' Song would have fitted.
Nor was he "doing his best to be Scottish at the time it was written" - listen to it and you'll find it was based on Sam Larner's East Anglian. The genius of all the Radio Ballad songs was that they drew directly from the vernacular of the subject matter - Travellers, road workers, teenagers, miners.....
Shoals of Herring in particular was based directly on actuality recorded from Sam and Ronnie Balls, another East Anglian fisherman.
Anyway, as far as 'trying to be Scottish', MacColl was brought up in a Scottish family surrounded by Scots, - so he didn't have to try too hard.
Why oh why....?
Enjoyed the prgramme but would have appreciated somebody leading it who knew a little more about the subject.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 08 May 10 - 09:48 AM

I think having someone who confessed relative ignorance as presenter worked well, as it allowed the singers to don the mantle of expert. The researchers should have known a bit more, for all the reasons mentioned. Surely they could have got someone from the folk world on board.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 08 May 10 - 10:29 AM

fell asleep and missed it...
then was too sleepy to remember to set the recorder for the later repeat.

When's it on the telly again ?

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 May 10 - 10:49 AM

After that debacle at Christmas, it was great to see BBC4 get something right. Ok, there were a few inaccuracies, but name me a program that doesn't have its share, but it took a novice and produced a very creditable introduction to "Shanties and Sea Songs" as sung in Great Britain.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: buddhuu
Date: 08 May 10 - 11:20 AM

Just reposting the link that JohnJ posted earlier in the thread in case anyone missed it.

Shanties on BBC iPlayer - Watch online.

iPlayer shows are usually available for about a month after broadcast (IIRC), so the link will expire eventually.

For those unfamiliar with iPlayer, if you have a broadband connection you can watch shows online. Most broadcasters have an equivalent - ITV, Channel 4 etc etc...

I posted some praise on the PoV message board earlier, but as I'm only an occasional participant in BBC discussions, I have to wait for my comments to be checked by a mod before they appear.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 08 May 10 - 11:43 AM

thanks, but a problem with iPlayer is its a rubbish way of watching good quality programmes
if broadband connection is unreliable,
and the last time I installed BBC software so I could
download the programmes as files to watch offline
it badly buggered my XP set up.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: buddhuu
Date: 08 May 10 - 12:06 PM

Well, for those who want it, there it is. For those who don't... well, don't worry, no one's going to make you use it.

XP? I think you'll find that comes badly buggered up as standard. It's a traditional Microsoft Windows feature.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Tootler
Date: 08 May 10 - 07:59 PM

I think you'll find things have changed now. I had software for downloading on my PC for a while and though it worked OK, it slowed WinXP down so I removed it eventually. If you wanted to stream through Firefox, you had to install the IE tab so you could fool them you were using Internet Explorer.

I watched the program this morning on Firefox running in Ubuntu Linux no problems. Obviously if you have a slow connection you will need to install the software for downloading and it is now available for Windows, Mac and some versions of Linux.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 May 10 - 03:22 AM

It's on again on Monday on BBC4 at 10.50pm

Dave H

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 May 10 - 04:12 AM

Great programme, I take back my earlier comment about missing a reference to Stan H, I think in context it doesn't matter. Jim, you say that you'd have enjoyed it more if it were led by someone who knew more about the subject - I would have agreed with you if this had been an "educational" or historical kind of documentary, but this was more about the discoveries made by an innocent of the genre. In this context I found Gareth's enthusiasm more important that his lack of background knowledge.

There's only so much one can do in 1 hour. I'd have loved to have seen Stan and Johnny Collins, or to have had the links to the Amrican, Jamaican etc shanties shown, ot to have finished with the Farewell Shanty etc etc. But see how much they did pack in 1 hour, the personal accounts of so many proponents, the Filey and Whitby stories, the story of the herring lasses and so on!

On the subject of the "Shoals of herring" - I think people can be forgiven for thinking of it as a Scottish song (trad or not not an issue), given that the vast majority of the herring girls WERE Scots. So it was written by a non-Scot, but it is about their lives, so they are right to appropriate it. I think sometimes we nitpick too much of factual provenance compared to the provenance of the story told.

Finally, I was reminded once more how much Jim Mageean knows about the subject. Those of us who enjoy his delivery and festival appearances often forget that he's also quite a historian on the subject of sea songs & shanties.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 May 10 - 04:27 AM

If the aim is to interest those not already converted, to an interest in the music, then I think a presenter as ignorant of the subject as the majority of the viewers, was a good move.
Too many times, niche subjects like this are presented by "experts", and they get very anal about their subject, talk jargon, and lose those of us who know eff all about it.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Worcesterman
Date: 09 May 10 - 04:32 AM

Really good to watch a prog that dealt very well with sea-songs and their traditions. The 'Shoals of Herring' cringe moment has been spotted by loads of contributors, but Stan Hugill was there in the background as a few have commented. The lighthouse footage with Jim Mageean was brilliant.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 09 May 10 - 11:42 AM

George, MacColl WAS scottish. Born in salford to scottish parents and brought up in a tight knit scottish emigre society. The song, however, was written about East of England fisherMEN, deliberately using east english vernacular.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 May 10 - 12:25 PM

Thanks for continuing this from the previous thread and providing the link!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 May 10 - 01:05 PM

I think it would be great to get Gareth to a festival too... his previous choir series have been about encouraging people to sing, and I wonder how much exposure he's had to people who sing for their own enjoyment?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 10 - 02:55 PM

George,
Shoals of Herring follows the life of a fisherman from cabin-boy to retirement; it is based roughly on Sam Larner's autobiographical narrative, with a little of Ronnie Balls' phrasing thrown in. Listen to how it is used on the Radio Ballad, nothing much Scots about it. Also listen to the magnificent 'Now Is The Time For Fishing' album of Sam; arguably the best presentation of a traditional singer ever issued IMO.
On the other hand, 'The Fish Gutters' Song' was based on Scots women talking about the gutting and sung in the Radio Ballad by two Scots Traveller women, Margaret and Elizabeth Stewart.
I wouldn't have wanted the programme to be a historical documentary; it worked well enough for me as it was. What did worry me was some of the misinformation, particularly about the songs. I think it is worth remembering that not everybody is as familiar with the subject as some of the people on this forum; particularly when the programme was sandwiched into a series which would have drawn a much wider audience than us folkies.
I have to say that I quite often duck and cringe when I hear folk music is to be used in programmes, usually drafted in by people who are unfamiliar with the genre and sung with about the same lack of understanding (I wonder if anybody remembers the lovely old shantyman Stanley Slade, complete with BBC choir for a chorus - oh dear!). On this occasion I was pleasantly surprised.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Mr Fox
Date: 09 May 10 - 08:39 PM

Funnily enough, the Scottish reference to Shoals of Herring got up my nose too. They should ask someone, shouldn't they.

There were three McColl songs passed off as 'traditional Scottish'. I noticed The Fisherman's Wife in there as well - and and there were great chunks (i.e. most of the song) of Come All Ye Fisher Lassies in the song that was sung in the museum.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: scowie
Date: 10 May 10 - 03:55 AM

Yes, there were bits you could point at, but how refreshing to see the folksong world displayed on the beeb without that all too often sneering.
Along with poor old morris dancing we are(or were!)the butt of the jokes of every second rate commedian that turns up pinching our licence fee, and insulting us while they do it.
This was O.K. I felt it was a real representation of our world, and I was happy with it.
The beeb should now send young Gareth to the Song and Ale, or Saddleworth f/fest, his eyes would open even wider! and I might possibly be persuaded buy the young pup a pint!
Cheers, Scowie.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 May 10 - 04:09 AM

And just to make it plain - Irene Watt would know perfectly well the history of "Shoals of Herring". It was the scriptwriter (Gareth?) that said it was "Scottish". I didn't hear anyone claim anything for the "Fish Gutter's Song - though the context made it seem as if it were traditional - a compliment to the writer I would have thought.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: nutty
Date: 10 May 10 - 06:18 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong - but I believe that the Nelson song (sung by Kimber's Men ?) was written by Richard Grainger.

I checked the credits and no acknowledgements were made. SHAME