BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 20 - 08:18 AM

Chinese boatmen hauling a barge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQSV3dK6oGY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjoQp-qL_i8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-kgigjgyJI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eajioOdYuY8

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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 20 - 08:10 AM

Raising the sail on a Dhow - capstan shanty & halyard shanty - Arab / Indian style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpy8McIs_nA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fulPw-CYfAU

===

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: sciencegeek
Date: 05 Oct 20 - 07:40 AM

years ago I watched a documentary that included a short piece on Chinese boatmen hauling a barge and singing a shanty... the narrator never even mentioned the singing, but it was unmistakably a hauling shanty - most likely of local origin

I've tried to find again and failed but if you go on youtube and search on Chinese boatmen you get some interest hits like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4AgMRb3rCE

do the same on similar themes and see what pops up

that's how I stumbled upon the BBC broadcast in the first place, what with never before having access to BBC broadcasts on this side of the pond

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST,CJB666
Date: 05 Oct 20 - 06:29 AM

Meanwhile has anyone researched and recorded work songs / chants from other sailing communities? On the recent re-airing of Michael Palin's "Around the World in 80 Days" he (and his film crew) catch hitch a lift on a working dhow from Dubai to Bombay

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b007894l/around-the-world-in-80-days-3-ancient-mariners

"Michael Palin and his film crew continue their journey in the footsteps of Phileas Fogg. They drive right across Arabia in only 40 hours to make up for lost time. In Dubai they hitch a lift on a very primitive sailing boat [dhow] and come close to danger in the Strait of Hormuz when the engine fails and they drift among the mines sown during the Iran-Iraq war."

The Beeb included much footage of them sailing on the dhow, including shots of the dhow's crew hauling ropes fo song / chants - for real.

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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST,Clicky ...
Date: 02 Oct 20 - 03:53 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqC2-wY_Axw

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: sciencegeek
Date: 02 Oct 20 - 05:39 AM

I Find it interesting to find a show titled Sea Songs and Shanties being raked over the coals for not being a definitive program on shantying and having too many mere sea songs... perhaps consider that they had their own goals and went about achieving them as best they could under the time constraints and the rest of the stuff that goes with any television production.

How about those dissatisfied folks do their own independent productions and post to youtube or wherever... wear their shoes for awhile and then listen to others lambast their efforts... lol

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: sciencegeek
Date: 02 Oct 20 - 05:07 AM

here is the link to this BBC show on youtube... hopefully some kind soul will turn it into a blue clicky lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqC2-wY_Axw

they didn't mention Stan Hugill, but they did use a recording of him shantying in the sound track - hard to miss those dulcet tones of his lol

I did appreciate that they mentioned Richard Runciman Terry and his first book of shanties... an early pioneer much neglected these days and who actually presented a number of radio broadcasts of shanties back in the early days of the BBC in the 1920s. Shanties were a life long passion of his and his extended Runciman family

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:13 AM

if there was good singing and the programme promoted trad songs amongst other material that has to be good

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST,Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:54 PM

Just caught up with this (a few years late!), and I'm afraid I was really disappointed. No distinction between traditional, Victorian, Revival-era and contemporary songs; they were all Sea Songs, they were all sung by good honest seafaring folk, probably, some of the time, and they were all lovely. I don't expect every arts documentary to be Kenneth Clark's Civilisation, but this just struck me as muddleheaded and superficial. Gareth Malone was engaging, though, and there was some great singing along the way.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: JohnH
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:44 PM

Fluffy in parts but the thin edge of the wedge? Not bad for the box!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Noreen
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:12 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM

Having missed this programme last year I was delighted to catch up with it. I thought it was excellent and so did the the OH who is not a dyed-in-the-wool folk fan.We felt that the harmonies and diverse voices of the northern groups were superior to the more famous Fishermens Friends, but then we're both Tykes. I could certainly handle a follow-up, although a programme commissioner reading some of the comments on here might well feel inclined to just say 'folk it'.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:49 PM

Legally and morally if his tune was used[ even if the broadside was unaltered], he is due royalties and recognition , if he altered the broadside and added a chorus or whatever, he is entitled to recognition for his creative work.
george dunn?was he the one who made up his own tunes to traditional songs, or am i confusing him with bob belton, or someone else.
as you well know,if the song is an old broadside it is out of copy right, and as Richard put music to it he is entitled to 100percent royalties, on the music and words, plus recognition for putting it back into circulation, I reckon he may have altered words considerably, but I am as always prepared and happy to be corrected.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: doc.tom
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:09 PM

In view of earlier comments, I hope I don't seem pedantic, BUT I believe the TUNE of the version of Death of Nelson that is being referred to was written by Richard Grainger: the SONG is an old broadside and previously had it's own tune - or else the Leader Records' track of George Dunn singing it on his eponymous LP is spurious! (He was only about 60 years older than Richard).

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST,Badjelly
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:38 AM

The "Nelson" song with "on board a man of war" in the Chorus is entitled "The Death of Nelson" by Richard Grainger which is on his first album, " Herbs on the Heart" recorded on Fellside.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 05:23 AM

programme on shanties rather than, say, dog agility trials or steam traction engine

I happen to like sheep dogs and steam engines, but there we go....

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Old Vermin
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 05:17 AM

Not too much point in venting spleen for whatever the errors might be.

I just assume that any broadcast or newspaper report is almost always put together by people who of necessity know less than the specialist and are producing something for the entertainment and information of a general audience. Just has to be selective and simplified.

Just be thankful that there was a programme on shanties rather than, say, dog agility trials or steam traction engines or wood-turning.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Janet Elizabeth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:57 PM

One thing in the programme I missed before which I could see with iPlayer - the book mentioned at the beginning (which includes Volga Boat song I noticed) is Sea Shanties collected and edited by R R Terry.
None of the singers were credited on the BBC web site.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM

re. nuttys post
Richard Grainger did write a song about Nelson, "on board a man of war"?was this the same song, I cant get BBC, If it was he should have been credited.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: stallion
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:10 PM

MMMMMMMMMMM you lot are being unusually tolerant with this prog. I fully expected everyone to be venting their spleen / showing off their knowledge. Maybe the mistakes were so obvious that it would have been crass to mention it. Anyway I think Gareths enthusiasm is genuine and at least he is trying. Oh, I enjoyed it.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Janet Elizabeth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:02 PM

You can watch this on iPlayer - have to be quick though as it will expire at 10:59pm on Tuesday 31st August 2010

http://bbc.co.uk/i/s97c0/
or
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00s97c0/Shanties_and_Sea_Songs_with_Gareth_Malone/

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: mattkeen
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 04:16 AM

Great


Not entirely accurate
Gareth is a very good presenter
He's enthusiastic about singing particualrly and had a genuine feeling for the lives of those being sung about

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:23 PM

THOROUGHLY ENJOYABLE... IT'S BETTER TO SHOW SOME BITS THAN NONE AT ALL!



---


And thus spake Aeola!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Aeola
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:16 PM

THOROUGHLY ENJOYABLE... IT'S BETTER TO SHOW SOME BITS THAN NONE AT ALL!

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Gavin Paterson
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM

I thought it was great. Really. It was such a shame that Alan didn't use his catch phrase.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: G-Force
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 02:10 PM

Well, from two died-in-the wool folkies we enjoyed it (and no-one would describe either of us as a lover of sea shanties).   One can't expect the BBC to get a specialist subject completely right so I think we should stop being so critical and be grateful it was shown at all. Any airing of our folk traditions has to be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Old Vermin
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:18 AM

Duly recorded. From the foregoing I think it may help to watch it from the perspective of an intelligent member the television audience rather than from the very specialised viewpoint of a knowledgeable folkie.

The audience for BBC4 is small enough to imperil its survival. There are probably more people in it, though, than there are folkies in England. You could probably take every person who attends a folk-festival proper, a sing-around or a ceilidh or dances Morris in a year and not have enough to 'justify' one TV programme being screened.

From what I've seen so far it is well and pleasantly put together, and I look forward to watching and listening to the rest of it.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 08:01 AM

critize = criticise, obviously.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 07:54 AM

I'm quite surprised that some of you liked the presenter. Alan Partridge was all that came to my mind. The bemused facial expressions especially.

What the hell is it about 'Folkies' that they need to find something to critize?

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Gavin Paterson
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 07:40 AM

I'm quite surprised that some of you liked the presenter.

Alan Partridge was all that came to my mind. The bemused facial expressions especially.

Good programme though..

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 10:46 AM

Repeated tonight on BBC 4 @ 10pm if you haven't seen it.

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: 8_Pints
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 07:04 PM

Thanx for the correction....

Bob

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM

BLADEN

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

Blayden, not Blaydon
the Portland Quarrymen were recorded byPeter Kennedy

Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: 8_Pints
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 06:44 AM

I spoke to Jim Mageean yesterday at the "Sing your Heart Out" event run by Angie & Ken Blaydon, concerning the omission of any mention of Stan Hugill.

Jim informed me that Gareth had asked him in interview of his musical influences, and Jim had described all the work and contribution Stan had made in collecting shanties, etc.

Unfortunately this ended up on the cutting room floor which explains the exclusion.....

Bob

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Vin2
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

Sorry, my previous bit was a reply to a post from Ray Padgett on a new thread.

I'm sure the programme did have a few inaccuracies and probably, in the eyes of those more learned on the subject, been done a lot better.

However, for all its minus points it was a perhaps a good introduction to a history of a once great industry on our isle since 'butchered', in my umble opinion, on the alter of economics and politics (sorry for rant). Maybe some younger viewers, especially perhaps those who witnesssed the filming, who are new to the subject might pursue it further. In that sense alone, the programme was a plus mark for tv.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Vin2
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:47 AM

Yeah only caught the last 30 mins Ray. Great to see tho. Lovely story re the rescue of the fishermen off Robin Hood's Bay, having litterally carted the lifeboat over from Whitby plus the tragedy of the whole fleet of fishermen wiped out in a single night in 16somethin-or-other leaving around a dozen widows. Great tv for a change !

Subject: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:34 AM

Anyone catch this programme?

Had Kimbers men, Keelers, Jim Mageean, Fisherman's friends etc

Ray

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 May 10 - 03:43 PM

If they'd had the self-restraint to leave "shanties" out of the discussion, it might have been good. Even though there was hardly a shanty in the program, they kept invoking this quaint idea of "shanties", as if to piggy-back on their history and the idea of these "roughie toughie" work songs. The info on shanties, however, was mostly erroneous, and the "demonstration" did not work (songs were improperly matched and the work performed clumsily -- they could at least have a demonstration by people who were experienced). And then you have the Fisherman's Friends, who can't seem to get past "Nancy Blair" before ending their 3-5 verse shanty inspired cover-songs. Hmm, that lobster pot shanty didn't look like it was coordinating anything, to me.

Basically, cut the pretense. Make the program about the GROUPS/PERFORMERS, whatever they are doing. Stop making up history and subjecting them to pretense. Focus on what they are ACTUALLY doing: their comraderie, their community, and their great singing of songs inspired by the sea and nautical life. Leave in the stories about the performers and their lives, and the communities they address. Leave out the constant, erroneous, nationally/ethnically biased fluff....seriously, there is already enough misinformation, and already enough damage done to traditional genres.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Girl Friday
Date: 18 May 10 - 02:01 PM

Yes- the song was beautifully sung. Yes - the pun was intended.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Dave in Sheffield
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:37 PM

Well said Irene and I have pointed out precisely what you said elsewhere.

And it was great to hear Graham singing - didn't know he was that good!!

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:09 AM

Girl Friday also said: There is so much to trawl through.

Now was that a deliberate joke? In this context, quite a good one, if so!
Tug the Cox (friend o' mine) mentioned the non-Scottishness of the song in post no 4 on this thread.

And Yarmouth, there are two, one on the Isle of Wight, but it's obviously the East Anglian Great one here. But as has been mentioned elsewhere, the Fish Gutters song is about all the young women who "traivelled all aroon" any fishing ports, including Yarmouth. The first verse mentions a whole cluster of ports in the N East of Scotland from whence they came.

Whatever you think about "Shoals" being included in the programme, it was good to see Irene and Graham ( more friends) singing it.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:30 AM

Gareth said it was a Scottish song but he wasn't to know.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,g
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:01 AM

Maybe they think "Yarmouth Harbour" is somewhere in Scotland.

g

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Irene
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:30 AM

I actually sang Shoals of Herring on the programme and I never said that it was Scottish - what I said was that it was my father's favourite song and he used to sing it all the time. He was a fisherman, skippered his own boat, and he knew the life and he always felt that Ewan McColl captured the life very well in his songs. It was never meant to be a traditional song either. For my part what I was doing was highlighting the fact that the fishing life was shared equally between men and women and that has also been preserved in song whether traditional or contemporary. My mother was involved in fish curing at age 14 and all my ancestors both in the female line and the male line have been connected to the fishing industry. As for Gareth not being an expert - well the whole point was that he was visiting places in the country where sea songs of any kind are important and finding out about the people who sang them.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:31 AM

Sorry, forgot to put my name at the top of the above tale.
Ewan

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:28 AM

I began counting what time intervals that intervened before I shouted at the TV again about some inaccuracy or misrepresentation - an average 4 minutes. But still I was delighted it was there and at much of the content though lamenting at how it could have been better. On use of worksongs at or on the water, in 1966 I was on a two car flat metal ferry crossing a river up the coast from Mombasa. There was a toll bridge that was an easier faster crossing but the ferry was the way to go. It was carrid over by chains running on either side. These were dragged by a team of convicts on either side of the boat! They worked in rhythm pulling the chain along the side, when they rerached the front of the boat they would run to the back and seize hold to drag again. WEhill pulling they sang a song, and now and then one running to the back would brerak off to do a few dance steps. When we were about three quarters across the weight of the chain behind us meant that the boat would keep running as long as the chain did not catch in its channel, so to keep it moving the pulling gang needed to jump up and down. This they did at the prow in front of me, finishing their singing with semi-choreographed dancing. This meant of course a good tip [the ferry itself was free] for them, reinforced by the Swahili words of their song which said I was a big boss on his way from Mombasa to Nairobi [I was in fact on my way to Sunday lunch in a hotel in a compass heading 75 degrees wrong for Nairobi, which they well knew but did not fit the tight five syllable line they were using.
I think I may have told this story on Mudcat before, but what the hell, tell em when you can!
Ewan

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:27 AM

Girl Friday - Sorry as well. Wasn't really having a go; have got a little over-sensitive to label-pinning of late,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,flyingcat(moira)
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:00 AM

Just thought I'd let everyone know that shanties and sea songs are still being sung in the most unlikely places. I was wallking up the hospital car park to work this morning (7.45) and 2 kiddies got out of their car with their mother singing "Hoo ray and up she rises, early in the morning!!" It was brilliant. Who says folk music's dead!! M

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Girl Friday
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:54 PM

Jim - the mudcat's full of people who spot every small thing and comment on it. I meant no offence, and if you knew me you'd know that.

SORRY!!!! Anyway, I've now seen the programme about square riggers and, what a shame that Hughie Jones got no credit.