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BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties

The Sandman 12 Dec 17 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,Phil Edwards 11 Dec 17 - 04:54 PM
JohnH 15 May 11 - 05:44 PM
Noreen 15 May 11 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,Mike Rogers 16 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM
The Sandman 15 Apr 11 - 01:49 PM
doc.tom 15 Apr 11 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Badjelly 15 Apr 11 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,Ed 27 Aug 10 - 05:23 AM
Old Vermin 27 Aug 10 - 05:17 AM
Janet Elizabeth 26 Aug 10 - 01:57 PM
The Sandman 26 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM
stallion 26 Aug 10 - 01:10 PM
Janet Elizabeth 26 Aug 10 - 01:02 PM
mattkeen 26 Aug 10 - 04:16 AM
Continuity Jones 25 Aug 10 - 03:23 PM
Aeola 25 Aug 10 - 03:16 PM
Gavin Paterson 25 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM
G-Force 25 Aug 10 - 02:10 PM
Old Vermin 25 Aug 10 - 09:18 AM
Ed. 25 Aug 10 - 08:01 AM
Ed. 25 Aug 10 - 07:54 AM
Gavin Paterson 25 Aug 10 - 07:40 AM
GUEST 24 Aug 10 - 10:46 AM
8_Pints 28 Jun 10 - 07:04 PM
The Sandman 28 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM
The Sandman 28 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM
8_Pints 28 Jun 10 - 06:44 AM
Vin2 07 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM
Vin2 07 Jun 10 - 07:47 AM
r.padgett 07 Jun 10 - 04:34 AM
Gibb Sahib 25 May 10 - 03:43 PM
Girl Friday 18 May 10 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Dave in Sheffield 14 May 10 - 01:37 PM
Tattie Bogle 14 May 10 - 11:09 AM
Manitas_at_home 14 May 10 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,g 14 May 10 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,Irene 14 May 10 - 09:30 AM
GUEST,Ewan McVicar 14 May 10 - 04:31 AM
GUEST 14 May 10 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 10 - 04:27 AM
GUEST,flyingcat(moira) 14 May 10 - 04:00 AM
Girl Friday 13 May 10 - 04:54 PM
vectis 12 May 10 - 06:27 PM
Jim Carroll 12 May 10 - 05:51 PM
Girl Friday 12 May 10 - 04:55 PM
Dave Hanson 12 May 10 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,glueperson 12 May 10 - 02:11 PM
Herga Kitty 12 May 10 - 02:07 PM
Gibb Sahib 12 May 10 - 01:35 PM
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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:13 AM

if there was good singing and the programme promoted trad songs amongst other material that has to be good


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST,Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Dec 17 - 04:54 PM

Just caught up with this (a few years late!), and I'm afraid I was really disappointed. No distinction between traditional, Victorian, Revival-era and contemporary songs; they were all Sea Songs, they were all sung by good honest seafaring folk, probably, some of the time, and they were all lovely. I don't expect every arts documentary to be Kenneth Clark's Civilisation, but this just struck me as muddleheaded and superficial. Gareth Malone was engaging, though, and there was some great singing along the way.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: JohnH
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:44 PM

Fluffy in parts but the thin edge of the wedge? Not bad for the box!


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Noreen
Date: 15 May 11 - 05:12 PM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 03:56 AM

Having missed this programme last year I was delighted to catch up with it. I thought it was excellent and so did the the OH who is not a dyed-in-the-wool folk fan.We felt that the harmonies and diverse voices of the northern groups were superior to the more famous Fishermens Friends, but then we're both Tykes. I could certainly handle a follow-up, although a programme commissioner reading some of the comments on here might well feel inclined to just say 'folk it'.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 01:49 PM

Legally and morally if his tune was used[ even if the broadside was unaltered], he is due royalties and recognition , if he altered the broadside and added a chorus or whatever, he is entitled to recognition for his creative work.
george dunn?was he the one who made up his own tunes to traditional songs, or am i confusing him with bob belton, or someone else.
as you well know,if the song is an old broadside it is out of copy right, and as Richard put music to it he is entitled to 100percent royalties, on the music and words, plus recognition for putting it back into circulation, I reckon he may have altered words considerably, but I am as always prepared and happy to be corrected.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: doc.tom
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:09 PM

In view of earlier comments, I hope I don't seem pedantic, BUT I believe the TUNE of the version of Death of Nelson that is being referred to was written by Richard Grainger: the SONG is an old broadside and previously had it's own tune - or else the Leader Records' track of George Dunn singing it on his eponymous LP is spurious! (He was only about 60 years older than Richard).


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST,Badjelly
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:38 AM

The "Nelson" song with "on board a man of war" in the Chorus is entitled "The Death of Nelson" by Richard Grainger which is on his first album, " Herbs on the Heart" recorded on Fellside.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 05:23 AM

programme on shanties rather than, say, dog agility trials or steam traction engine

I happen to like sheep dogs and steam engines, but there we go....


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Old Vermin
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 05:17 AM

Not too much point in venting spleen for whatever the errors might be.

I just assume that any broadcast or newspaper report is almost always put together by people who of necessity know less than the specialist and are producing something for the entertainment and information of a general audience. Just has to be selective and simplified.

Just be thankful that there was a programme on shanties rather than, say, dog agility trials or steam traction engines or wood-turning.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Janet Elizabeth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:57 PM

One thing in the programme I missed before which I could see with iPlayer - the book mentioned at the beginning (which includes Volga Boat song I noticed) is Sea Shanties collected and edited by R R Terry.
None of the singers were credited on the BBC web site.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM

re. nuttys post
Richard Grainger did write a song about Nelson, "on board a man of war"?was this the same song, I cant get BBC, If it was he should have been credited.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: stallion
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:10 PM

MMMMMMMMMMM you lot are being unusually tolerant with this prog. I fully expected everyone to be venting their spleen / showing off their knowledge. Maybe the mistakes were so obvious that it would have been crass to mention it. Anyway I think Gareths enthusiasm is genuine and at least he is trying. Oh, I enjoyed it.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Janet Elizabeth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:02 PM

You can watch this on iPlayer - have to be quick though as it will expire at 10:59pm on Tuesday 31st August 2010

http://bbc.co.uk/i/s97c0/
or
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00s97c0/Shanties_and_Sea_Songs_with_Gareth_Malone/


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: mattkeen
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 04:16 AM

Great


Not entirely accurate
Gareth is a very good presenter
He's enthusiastic about singing particualrly and had a genuine feeling for the lives of those being sung about


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:23 PM

THOROUGHLY ENJOYABLE... IT'S BETTER TO SHOW SOME BITS THAN NONE AT ALL!



---


And thus spake Aeola!


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Aeola
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:16 PM

THOROUGHLY ENJOYABLE... IT'S BETTER TO SHOW SOME BITS THAN NONE AT ALL!


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Gavin Paterson
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM

I thought it was great. Really. It was such a shame that Alan didn't use his catch phrase.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: G-Force
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 02:10 PM

Well, from two died-in-the wool folkies we enjoyed it (and no-one would describe either of us as a lover of sea shanties).   One can't expect the BBC to get a specialist subject completely right so I think we should stop being so critical and be grateful it was shown at all. Any airing of our folk traditions has to be a good thing.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Old Vermin
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:18 AM

Duly recorded. From the foregoing I think it may help to watch it from the perspective of an intelligent member the television audience rather than from the very specialised viewpoint of a knowledgeable folkie.

The audience for BBC4 is small enough to imperil its survival. There are probably more people in it, though, than there are folkies in England. You could probably take every person who attends a folk-festival proper, a sing-around or a ceilidh or dances Morris in a year and not have enough to 'justify' one TV programme being screened.

From what I've seen so far it is well and pleasantly put together, and I look forward to watching and listening to the rest of it.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 08:01 AM

critize = criticise, obviously.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 07:54 AM

I'm quite surprised that some of you liked the presenter. Alan Partridge was all that came to my mind. The bemused facial expressions especially.

What the hell is it about 'Folkies' that they need to find something to critize?


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: Gavin Paterson
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 07:40 AM

I'm quite surprised that some of you liked the presenter.

Alan Partridge was all that came to my mind. The bemused facial expressions especially.

Good programme though..


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 10:46 AM

Repeated tonight on BBC 4 @ 10pm if you haven't seen it.


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: 8_Pints
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 07:04 PM

Thanx for the correction....

Bob


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM

BLADEN


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

Blayden, not Blaydon
the Portland Quarrymen were recorded byPeter Kennedy


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Subject: RE: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: 8_Pints
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 06:44 AM

I spoke to Jim Mageean yesterday at the "Sing your Heart Out" event run by Angie & Ken Blaydon, concerning the omission of any mention of Stan Hugill.

Jim informed me that Gareth had asked him in interview of his musical influences, and Jim had described all the work and contribution Stan had made in collecting shanties, etc.

Unfortunately this ended up on the cutting room floor which explains the exclusion.....

Bob


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Vin2
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

Sorry, my previous bit was a reply to a post from Ray Padgett on a new thread.

I'm sure the programme did have a few inaccuracies and probably, in the eyes of those more learned on the subject, been done a lot better.

However, for all its minus points it was a perhaps a good introduction to a history of a once great industry on our isle since 'butchered', in my umble opinion, on the alter of economics and politics (sorry for rant). Maybe some younger viewers, especially perhaps those who witnesssed the filming, who are new to the subject might pursue it further. In that sense alone, the programme was a plus mark for tv.


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Vin2
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:47 AM

Yeah only caught the last 30 mins Ray. Great to see tho. Lovely story re the rescue of the fishermen off Robin Hood's Bay, having litterally carted the lifeboat over from Whitby plus the tragedy of the whole fleet of fishermen wiped out in a single night in 16somethin-or-other leaving around a dozen widows. Great tv for a change !


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Subject: BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:34 AM

Anyone catch this programme?

Had Kimbers men, Keelers, Jim Mageean, Fisherman's friends etc

Ray


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 May 10 - 03:43 PM

If they'd had the self-restraint to leave "shanties" out of the discussion, it might have been good. Even though there was hardly a shanty in the program, they kept invoking this quaint idea of "shanties", as if to piggy-back on their history and the idea of these "roughie toughie" work songs. The info on shanties, however, was mostly erroneous, and the "demonstration" did not work (songs were improperly matched and the work performed clumsily -- they could at least have a demonstration by people who were experienced). And then you have the Fisherman's Friends, who can't seem to get past "Nancy Blair" before ending their 3-5 verse shanty inspired cover-songs. Hmm, that lobster pot shanty didn't look like it was coordinating anything, to me.

Basically, cut the pretense. Make the program about the GROUPS/PERFORMERS, whatever they are doing. Stop making up history and subjecting them to pretense. Focus on what they are ACTUALLY doing: their comraderie, their community, and their great singing of songs inspired by the sea and nautical life. Leave in the stories about the performers and their lives, and the communities they address. Leave out the constant, erroneous, nationally/ethnically biased fluff....seriously, there is already enough misinformation, and already enough damage done to traditional genres.


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Girl Friday
Date: 18 May 10 - 02:01 PM

Yes- the song was beautifully sung. Yes - the pun was intended.


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Dave in Sheffield
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:37 PM

Well said Irene and I have pointed out precisely what you said elsewhere.

And it was great to hear Graham singing - didn't know he was that good!!


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:09 AM

Girl Friday also said: There is so much to trawl through.

Now was that a deliberate joke? In this context, quite a good one, if so!
Tug the Cox (friend o' mine) mentioned the non-Scottishness of the song in post no 4 on this thread.

And Yarmouth, there are two, one on the Isle of Wight, but it's obviously the East Anglian Great one here. But as has been mentioned elsewhere, the Fish Gutters song is about all the young women who "traivelled all aroon" any fishing ports, including Yarmouth. The first verse mentions a whole cluster of ports in the N East of Scotland from whence they came.

Whatever you think about "Shoals" being included in the programme, it was good to see Irene and Graham ( more friends) singing it.


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:30 AM

Gareth said it was a Scottish song but he wasn't to know.


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,g
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:01 AM

Maybe they think "Yarmouth Harbour" is somewhere in Scotland.

g


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Irene
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:30 AM

I actually sang Shoals of Herring on the programme and I never said that it was Scottish - what I said was that it was my father's favourite song and he used to sing it all the time. He was a fisherman, skippered his own boat, and he knew the life and he always felt that Ewan McColl captured the life very well in his songs. It was never meant to be a traditional song either. For my part what I was doing was highlighting the fact that the fishing life was shared equally between men and women and that has also been preserved in song whether traditional or contemporary. My mother was involved in fish curing at age 14 and all my ancestors both in the female line and the male line have been connected to the fishing industry. As for Gareth not being an expert - well the whole point was that he was visiting places in the country where sea songs of any kind are important and finding out about the people who sang them.


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:31 AM

Sorry, forgot to put my name at the top of the above tale.
Ewan


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:28 AM

I began counting what time intervals that intervened before I shouted at the TV again about some inaccuracy or misrepresentation - an average 4 minutes. But still I was delighted it was there and at much of the content though lamenting at how it could have been better. On use of worksongs at or on the water, in 1966 I was on a two car flat metal ferry crossing a river up the coast from Mombasa. There was a toll bridge that was an easier faster crossing but the ferry was the way to go. It was carrid over by chains running on either side. These were dragged by a team of convicts on either side of the boat! They worked in rhythm pulling the chain along the side, when they rerached the front of the boat they would run to the back and seize hold to drag again. WEhill pulling they sang a song, and now and then one running to the back would brerak off to do a few dance steps. When we were about three quarters across the weight of the chain behind us meant that the boat would keep running as long as the chain did not catch in its channel, so to keep it moving the pulling gang needed to jump up and down. This they did at the prow in front of me, finishing their singing with semi-choreographed dancing. This meant of course a good tip [the ferry itself was free] for them, reinforced by the Swahili words of their song which said I was a big boss on his way from Mombasa to Nairobi [I was in fact on my way to Sunday lunch in a hotel in a compass heading 75 degrees wrong for Nairobi, which they well knew but did not fit the tight five syllable line they were using.
I think I may have told this story on Mudcat before, but what the hell, tell em when you can!
Ewan


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:27 AM

Girl Friday - Sorry as well. Wasn't really having a go; have got a little over-sensitive to label-pinning of late,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,flyingcat(moira)
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:00 AM

Just thought I'd let everyone know that shanties and sea songs are still being sung in the most unlikely places. I was wallking up the hospital car park to work this morning (7.45) and 2 kiddies got out of their car with their mother singing "Hoo ray and up she rises, early in the morning!!" It was brilliant. Who says folk music's dead!! M


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Girl Friday
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:54 PM

Jim - the mudcat's full of people who spot every small thing and comment on it. I meant no offence, and if you knew me you'd know that.

SORRY!!!! Anyway, I've now seen the programme about square riggers and, what a shame that Hughie Jones got no credit.


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: vectis
Date: 12 May 10 - 06:27 PM

Kitty and Graeme are right Ken Stevens of Southampton wrote Rattle Them Winches.


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 10 - 05:51 PM

"Ok... I did read through the posts, but missed it."
Easily done - but still don't know why correcting basic misinformation makes anybody a pedant, and why your spotting it and pointing it out doesn't make you one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Girl Friday
Date: 12 May 10 - 04:55 PM

Ok... I did read through the posts, but missed it. There is so much to trawl through.


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 May 10 - 03:12 PM

Sid Kipper knew them all, famous gardening shanty ' Blood Red Roses '
sewing shanty ' General Taylor ' and a good old bread cutting shanty ' Hollow Ground '

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,glueperson
Date: 12 May 10 - 02:11 PM

In the slum clearances of the 1960s, it was not unknown for the wrecking ball operator to become so sated with the destruction of Victorian terraced houses, that he had to be lead away weeping from his crane. At such times the rest of the demolition gang would swing the ball manually with the aid of ropes.

The timing of the haul and release was crucial if the dangerous weight was not to swing out of control and a particular form of shanty was developed to aid the ropemen. The songs became popular in and around the communities whose houses were being taken down but were brought to public notice and finally banned after a recalcitrant dowager some believed to be a witch, spread Nobby's Lament to the ears of comatose navvies during a Friday lock-in. The chant's curious timing began laying low wrecking crews with various muscular ailments, mostly the result of whiplash injuries and was finally identified by Dr Wong as Refrain Snatch, though it was more commonly known by earthier titles.

The old woman was removed to the 19th floor of Wormwood Towers, a notorious high rise based on Le Corbusier's absinthe period and she died shortly afterwards of a licquorice overdose. There was a brief Snatch revival in the 80s lead by The Wreckers and Boys With Massive Balls who combined leather jerkins with surgical collars but it came to nothing and none of the original material is extant.


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 12 May 10 - 02:07 PM

I didn't recognise the winch shanty, but Graeme Knights told me at Herga on Monday evening that it was written by Ken Stephens (who also wrote the Herzogin Cecile).

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 May 10 - 01:35 PM

My dad, a botanist of some renown, had traveled to the deep Congo in 1982 looking for a rare plant that some believed could cure nose cancer. I accompanied him; he thought it would do me good to see the brutal realities of the jungle. It was then that, during a moment of privacy, I once saw a Hottentot picking his nose while humming a tune. I am quite sure that was the very last nose-picking chantey anybody anywhere has ever heard.


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