BBC 4 Sea songs and Shanties

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: mattkeen
Date: 10 May 10 - 06:36 AM

Generally great

I like Gareth - and he has a genuine love of singing and put over how emotionally powerful community singing, and especially men singing together, can be.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 May 10 - 07:15 AM

........Gareth also commented that singing by ordinary people was generally regarded as 'effete & unpopular' - not in my world - what planet's he live on?

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Tootler
Date: 10 May 10 - 04:32 PM

An excellent programme. I thought Gareth was a good choice for presenter. He has credibility with the general public and he approached the programme seriously and had a positive attitude to the subject and played the "wanting to find out more" line very effectively.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 May 10 - 05:20 PM

That comment ("effete and unpopular") is very accurate.

The soundtrack of the programme credited the Nelson song to one of Kimbers' Men.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Joe G
Date: 10 May 10 - 05:27 PM

Most of my friends find it inconceivable that I join in choruses at singarounds & gigs. Somehow though Karoke is seen as more normal!

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Lighter
Date: 10 May 10 - 05:45 PM

Apparently the show is not available to us Yanks.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 May 10 - 06:41 PM

Maybe someone who has the program "fairuse4wmv" can rip the programme and youtube it.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 May 10 - 06:50 PM

Really engaging! Well done, BBC4.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 May 10 - 06:59 PM

Apparently the show is not available to us Yanks.

They are scared of the inevitable retaliation. :D

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Gweltas
Date: 10 May 10 - 11:26 PM

Someone should invite Gareth to further his education at the Falmouth Sea Shanty Festival (June 18th to 20th) According to their website there are 23 groups confirmed as singing at this year's festival, including shanty crews from Cornwall, Ireland, England, Guernsey, France, Netherlands and Germany !

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 May 10 - 03:09 AM

I would guess that contributers to the programme would have mentioned Stan Hugill. For example, Bernie Davis from Liverpool was the first stanty expert to appear on the programme and he knew Stan personally.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,glueperson
Date: 11 May 10 - 03:29 AM

"Too many times, niche subjects like this are presented by "experts", and they get very anal about their subject, talk jargon, and lose those of us who know eff all about it."

Damn right John.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: IanC
Date: 11 May 10 - 03:42 AM

I watched it last night and it was really good.

Why in hell would he want to mention people like Stan Hugill? The guy was trying to identify (and get the viewers to identify) with the communities around the coast, not get expert about who collected what and where.

I thought it was well presented and the best program showcasing folk music I've seen for a while on TV (perhaps the best ever). Particularly good that Gareth Malone let the people do the talking and listened to them singing. He even seemed embarrassed when he was asked to conduct.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 11 May 10 - 03:58 AM

"Why in hell would he want to mention people like Atan Hugill?" Because he not only collected shanyies, he WAS a shantyman, in fact he sang the last shanty on the last British flagged deep sea commercial sailing vessel.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 May 10 - 04:48 AM

Gareth did a great job. Far too often presenters have no genuine interest in the subject matter, or in actually listening to and responding to the people they interview. I liked his unusual lack of ego, and the emphasis on the subject matter. I liked the whole production, which treated the audience as neither imbeciles nor experts. Good job.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: matt milton
Date: 11 May 10 - 04:52 AM

I thought it was quite rubbish actually. Mainly because the presenter was so charisma-free and that he had nothing whatsoever to say. He was like a limp lettuce. It made an interesting contrast with the recent Mastercrafts series - in which Monty Don engaged with a bit of criticism and insight. Howard Goodall and Charles Hazlewood are quite irritating, but they at least have a bit of spark, and would've made a better hash of it.

It was nice to see this music in a TV documentary. But I just thought it was put together in a totally ad-hoc fashion. If I found it a tad boring, god knows what people who aren't actually even interested in sea shanties made of it.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: melodeonboy
Date: 11 May 10 - 05:52 AM

Charisma-free or ego-free? I'm with Crow Sister on this one; I go for the latter!

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 10 - 07:33 AM

"....and they get very anal about their subject, talk jargon, and lose those of us who know eff all about it."
Not sure it's the presenters who get anal, or those selfish bar-stewards who insist that everything broadcast on whatever subject should be exclusively at 'their' level of understanding and appreciation. Folk song, like everything else, comes in many aspects, and, while you can't please all of the people.... it is possible to strike a balance.
I thought the programme was...... OK; not great, but not bad.
For me, it lacked the authority of somebody who knew the subject enough to tease out more information from the participants.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 11 May 10 - 08:00 AM

Only a matter of time before we get "Strictly Come Keelhauling on Ice" then :)

I found it a fascinating program as a shantyman meself. Malone was wise to stand well back and let the singing do the work., One or two accuracy hitches as mentioned above but better than, say, David Starkey doing his "Henry VIII was furious..." with cutaway of some actor gurning away.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 May 10 - 08:29 AM

He would want to mention Stan Hugill IanC, because Stan was a real life shantyman and if he was looking for authenticity he could do worse than Stan's many recordings, Stan was also responsible for his great collection of songs, Shanties From The seven Seas, many of which would have been lost if not written down by Stan, not to mention Stan being shipwrecked twice, being taken POW and keeping the spirit burning with his song and stories.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,bigJ
Date: 11 May 10 - 10:30 AM

I was surprised to learn from the programme that there was such a thing as a lobster-line mechanical-winch-hauling shanty (Fishermans Friends)!!

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,glueperson
Date: 11 May 10 - 11:33 AM

Pedantry passing itself off as historical accuracy on Mudcat! Surely not?

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Aeola
Date: 11 May 10 - 05:19 PM

Thoroughly enjoyed the prog, liked to have heard more singing but ,hey, just a taster for those less fortunate who have never never listened to shanties.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 May 10 - 08:20 AM

"Ewen would have loved to be considered traditional."
Actually, he wouldn't - he was always specific about what was traditional and what wasn't.

And that was why his published book contained the famous quote? "From the singing of Jimmy Miller". Those who know, know. If you don't - do the research.

I happened to speak to Tam Kearny (Fiddlers Green FC Toronto c 1986) he knew the man and was told the story by Ewen of McColl collecting songs from lumberjacks there. He was "amused" (I quote Tam) to collect one of his own songs. "Learned at Grandmother's knee - it was" (it may have been Shoals...). Along with "Please Release Me, Let Me Go". You have to imagine the timing. It was feasible - given the relative ages involved. We know what we know, and assume the rest!!!! see above.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 10 - 08:56 AM

Mr Red - which book would that be? There are a number of songs attributed to his father, William Miller who, according to one of his contemporaries, the historian, Eddie Frow "had a lot of queer old Scots songs". Goldstein and others released LPs which contained songs attributed to MacColl, but Ewan (correct spelling) never at any time attributed songs to himself except the ones he'd written. He didn't consider himself a traditional singer, and was quick enough to correct anybody who said he was.
He was pleased to have his songs taken up by others and claimed as traditional, but he never did so himself. We recorded Freeborn Man and Thirty Foot Trailer from Travellers who claimed the songs belonged to the Travelling community, and have collected Shoals of Herring from Irish singers who believed it to be a Traditional Irish song. Several folkie clowns have suggested that MacColl stole the songs from traditional singers ( a sort of backhanded compliment, I suppose).
I don't need to do the research, I knew MacColl for over 20 years and worked with him for a great deal of that time (even lived with them for a short period) so I don't have to rely on malicious gossip for my information.
Now what is it that you know what you know?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,keith A o Hertford
Date: 12 May 10 - 09:15 AM

Big J.,
I think that the suggestion was that the rythm of the shanty matched the work, not that it was created for that work.
I do not believe that shanties are really used as work songs by Cornish fishermen or anyone else anymore, but I would like to be proved wrong.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 May 10 - 09:35 AM

We used shanties to keep our paddles in time on the the River Irwell Raft Race. But that was 20 years ago when the only criterea we had to work to was the raft had to fit on the roofrack of a Lada estate! Oh - and not to sink...

DeG

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 10 - 09:37 AM

I think the winch shanty should have been taken with a pinch of salt, along with most tales of the sea rold to landsman.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Girl Friday
Date: 12 May 10 - 10:54 AM

I heard about the programme in an email from Joe Stead.Set up my box to record the whole series. Watched the first one this morning, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I enjoyed Gareth's presentation. He seemed truly interested in the subject. I am surprised that none of the pedants picked up on the citing of McColl's Shoals of Herring as a Scottish song.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 May 10 - 10:56 AM

Girl Friday: you're a master of irony. Or possibly a litle challenged in the reading department. Either way, endearing.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:00 AM

Girl Friday, if take the trouble to read the whole thread you will find it was picked up many times.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:12 AM

"I am surprised that none of the pedants picked up on the citing of McColl's Shoals of Herring as a Scottish song."
We did - read the thread.
Why should it be pedantic to correct the misidentification of a song I wonder - you spotted it and mentioned it, so I assume that makes you a pedant.
Incidentally, as far as I am aware, the last reported hearing of anything resembling a shanty being sung to accompany work (not by folkies, that is) was in Dublin, some time in the sixties. Collector Tom Munnelly watched a gang of navvies pulling a cable through a pipe laid under the pavement and singing/chanting to mark time as they worked. He said the words were indistinguishable, but he got the impression they were just improvised nonsense.
Previous to that, The Portland (The Isle of Slingers, to Hardy fans) Quarrymen were recorded by the BBC using hymns to time their work some time in the early fifties.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,LDT
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:12 AM

I watched it coz I think Gareth Malone is a bit...cute. *bush*
Anyway...as someone not really familiar with shanty's but who loves historical adventures involving tall ships etc. I found it interesting and engaging.
No cringeworthy whaling....I mean wailing. ;)
I felt like it needed to be two programs long and kinda expanded on a bit more....coz it felt a bit rushed.
But on the whole loved it.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:16 AM

A long way from Dublin, I know, but just last year, on the coast of Kenya, I heard fishermen hauling long nets ashore using a shanty style call-and-response to coordinate their work.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 12 May 10 - 12:09 PM

Incidentally, as far as I am aware, the last reported hearing of anything resembling a shanty being sung to accompany work (not by folkies, that is) was in Dublin, some time in the sixties. Collector Tom Munnelly watched a gang of navvies pulling a cable through a pipe laid under the pavement and singing/chanting to mark time as they worked.

In 1978/79 when we were installing Pulse-8 radio-navigation stations on the west coast of Ireland, to cover the Porcupine Bank oil exploration, we sang to coordinate hauling up the antenna sections. The riggers (either Joe Breen or Vince Gallager) would stand at the top of the sections (triangular cross-sections of about 15 inches a side) already guyed off vertical, and coordinate us pulling the next 40 foot section up to them with a gin pole by singing a refrain where we'd pull on the chorus. It was usually something like "Haul Away Joe"...especially when Joe Breen was on the mast! They'd then bolt that 40 foot in place and climb it (unguyed) before bringing up the guy wires and guying off, repeating until we had the full 300 feet up.

We installed 300 foot masts at Mizzen Head, Erris Head and Hags Head in that way, singing to coordinate hauling throughout.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 May 10 - 01:35 PM

My dad, a botanist of some renown, had traveled to the deep Congo in 1982 looking for a rare plant that some believed could cure nose cancer. I accompanied him; he thought it would do me good to see the brutal realities of the jungle. It was then that, during a moment of privacy, I once saw a Hottentot picking his nose while humming a tune. I am quite sure that was the very last nose-picking chantey anybody anywhere has ever heard.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 12 May 10 - 02:07 PM

I didn't recognise the winch shanty, but Graeme Knights told me at Herga on Monday evening that it was written by Ken Stephens (who also wrote the Herzogin Cecile).

Kitty

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,glueperson
Date: 12 May 10 - 02:11 PM

In the slum clearances of the 1960s, it was not unknown for the wrecking ball operator to become so sated with the destruction of Victorian terraced houses, that he had to be lead away weeping from his crane. At such times the rest of the demolition gang would swing the ball manually with the aid of ropes.

The timing of the haul and release was crucial if the dangerous weight was not to swing out of control and a particular form of shanty was developed to aid the ropemen. The songs became popular in and around the communities whose houses were being taken down but were brought to public notice and finally banned after a recalcitrant dowager some believed to be a witch, spread Nobby's Lament to the ears of comatose navvies during a Friday lock-in. The chant's curious timing began laying low wrecking crews with various muscular ailments, mostly the result of whiplash injuries and was finally identified by Dr Wong as Refrain Snatch, though it was more commonly known by earthier titles.

The old woman was removed to the 19th floor of Wormwood Towers, a notorious high rise based on Le Corbusier's absinthe period and she died shortly afterwards of a licquorice overdose. There was a brief Snatch revival in the 80s lead by The Wreckers and Boys With Massive Balls who combined leather jerkins with surgical collars but it came to nothing and none of the original material is extant.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 May 10 - 03:12 PM

Sid Kipper knew them all, famous gardening shanty ' Blood Red Roses '
sewing shanty ' General Taylor ' and a good old bread cutting shanty ' Hollow Ground '

Dave H

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Girl Friday
Date: 12 May 10 - 04:55 PM

Ok... I did read through the posts, but missed it. There is so much to trawl through.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 10 - 05:51 PM

"Ok... I did read through the posts, but missed it."
Easily done - but still don't know why correcting basic misinformation makes anybody a pedant, and why your spotting it and pointing it out doesn't make you one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: vectis
Date: 12 May 10 - 06:27 PM

Kitty and Graeme are right Ken Stevens of Southampton wrote Rattle Them Winches.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Girl Friday
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:54 PM

Jim - the mudcat's full of people who spot every small thing and comment on it. I meant no offence, and if you knew me you'd know that.

SORRY!!!! Anyway, I've now seen the programme about square riggers and, what a shame that Hughie Jones got no credit.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,flyingcat(moira)
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:00 AM

Just thought I'd let everyone know that shanties and sea songs are still being sung in the most unlikely places. I was wallking up the hospital car park to work this morning (7.45) and 2 kiddies got out of their car with their mother singing "Hoo ray and up she rises, early in the morning!!" It was brilliant. Who says folk music's dead!! M

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:27 AM

Girl Friday - Sorry as well. Wasn't really having a go; have got a little over-sensitive to label-pinning of late,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:28 AM

I began counting what time intervals that intervened before I shouted at the TV again about some inaccuracy or misrepresentation - an average 4 minutes. But still I was delighted it was there and at much of the content though lamenting at how it could have been better. On use of worksongs at or on the water, in 1966 I was on a two car flat metal ferry crossing a river up the coast from Mombasa. There was a toll bridge that was an easier faster crossing but the ferry was the way to go. It was carrid over by chains running on either side. These were dragged by a team of convicts on either side of the boat! They worked in rhythm pulling the chain along the side, when they rerached the front of the boat they would run to the back and seize hold to drag again. WEhill pulling they sang a song, and now and then one running to the back would brerak off to do a few dance steps. When we were about three quarters across the weight of the chain behind us meant that the boat would keep running as long as the chain did not catch in its channel, so to keep it moving the pulling gang needed to jump up and down. This they did at the prow in front of me, finishing their singing with semi-choreographed dancing. This meant of course a good tip [the ferry itself was free] for them, reinforced by the Swahili words of their song which said I was a big boss on his way from Mombasa to Nairobi [I was in fact on my way to Sunday lunch in a hotel in a compass heading 75 degrees wrong for Nairobi, which they well knew but did not fit the tight five syllable line they were using.
I think I may have told this story on Mudcat before, but what the hell, tell em when you can!
Ewan

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:31 AM

Sorry, forgot to put my name at the top of the above tale.
Ewan

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,Irene
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:30 AM

I actually sang Shoals of Herring on the programme and I never said that it was Scottish - what I said was that it was my father's favourite song and he used to sing it all the time. He was a fisherman, skippered his own boat, and he knew the life and he always felt that Ewan McColl captured the life very well in his songs. It was never meant to be a traditional song either. For my part what I was doing was highlighting the fact that the fishing life was shared equally between men and women and that has also been preserved in song whether traditional or contemporary. My mother was involved in fish curing at age 14 and all my ancestors both in the female line and the male line have been connected to the fishing industry. As for Gareth not being an expert - well the whole point was that he was visiting places in the country where sea songs of any kind are important and finding out about the people who sang them.

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: GUEST,g
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:01 AM

Maybe they think "Yarmouth Harbour" is somewhere in Scotland.

g

Subject: RE: Shanties BBC4 right now
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:30 AM

Gareth said it was a Scottish song but he wasn't to know.