BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM

Sorry-I have to keep re-setting the cookie. That must be why my posts keep going away.

            The difference between the health care bill and the Arizona ethnic studies proposal is, after it passed, the voters polled a huge majority in favor of the Arizona bill, while voters are polling a majority against the health care bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:15 PM

You don't get what "state-wide referendum" means, do you? You might as well say "the people of the United States" wanted the health care bill we got.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 09:24 PM

And the date of the state-wide referendum was when?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM

Yes, it's easy to miss things when one is not paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:46 PM

The voters in AZ? Has anyone voted on this except the AZ legislature? Missed it, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:26 PM

I'll see what I can do, Mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:52 PM

Have them come discuss with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM

"Who says it has?"

            The voters in Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM

Who says it has? Not the only person here who has children in Arizona schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:08 PM

At least we can get on with analysing Ethnic Studies, and how it has been hijacked in Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:41 AM

Per Simple: So, adios to this thread...this is it for me on this thread.

'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wished.

( Adios until next time, that is. )

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

The paregoric obviously didn't work- a stubborn case. Perhaps loperamiode hydrochloride and some kaolin suspension?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:11 AM

Whew!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:50 PM

And the actual topic of the thread, is, if anything, even more of a senseless black hole of time--as well as bearing an amazing resemblance not just to a dead horse--but one that's been mouldering away for several weeks.

Rig likes his conspiracy theories--especially ones which have to do with the "Brown Peril". It's not likely any contrary facts will penetrate his brain--because that's the way (uh-huh, uh-huh) he likes it.

So, adios to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:45 PM

So, after all this time, Mr. FO has come up with precisely zero proof of his assertion. I can't tell you how surprised I am.


But still, this is it for me on this thread.    Despite the groundswell of popular opinion clamoring for the scintillating conversation between Mr FO and me to go on for several thousands more posts, I've found I do have something better to do with my time--like just about anything else.

It certainly has been a long strange trip--but enlightening in some ways.    Mr. FO neatly encapsulated his own problem--and the reason he's not likely to become reasonable any time soon--in his statement:   "history is pretty much how the preponderance of evidence comes down".

Hey, groovy, man.    Like, what's goin' down?

That explains his sloppy writing--and sloppy thinking.

History as "majority rules". A unique perspective--but one which fits an ideological warrior like his good self to a T.

Only problem is that it's pure drivel.

History is not "the preponderance of evidence".   That's not history--that's a theory. Once more with feeling:   there is a difference between a theory and a fact. And some questions are never answered.   Nor does a real historian, as opposed to a polemicist, try to squeeze the evidence into his straitjacket--while conveniently ignoring anything which does not fit the theory--and therefore announce his theory as a fact.

A historian will call a theory a theory, a probability by its name, and distinguish between these and a fact. And sometimes facts are hard to come by. That's just the way it is.

But I can't spend any more time on this thread. So Mr. FO wins--he gets the last word. Feel free, Mr. FO, to jump around again yelling "I won, I won".    Congratulations to you. Give yourself another big gold star.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:08 PM

Actually, regarding the number of illegals as it affects Ethnic Studies, is less important than the numbers who are, or are not fluent in English.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:15 PM

The Tucson public school system is 57% ethnic Mexican. Most of them are either here illegally from Mexico or their parents came here illegally.

1. Please provide the specific citation for this statistic. Actually, since I don't doubt the first part, please provide an official statistic showing that 29% or more of the students are "either here illegally from Mexico or (whose) parents came here illegally".
2. Please provide the percentage of illegal students vs. the percentage who are US citizens by birth and whose parents may be, or may at one time have been, illegal immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:08 PM

The Tucson public school system is 57% ethnic Mexican. Most of them are either here illegally from Mexico or their parents came here illegally.

By contrast, Maine, the whole state, has fewer than 1000 illegal Mexicans. They are not a problem.

Alaska has fewer the 5000 illegal Mexicans. Again, not a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:42 PM

I still think I would defer to Desert Dancer, who is the only one here, as far as I know, who has had a child in Tucson schools and says that isn't the way it works at all. Rig, are you still basing your condemnation of the status quo in Arizona on your experience as a substitute teacher in California many years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM

"in Alaska an incoming non-English speaking student is 'main-streamed' as quickly as possible."


                In many places in Arizona, the majority of the students are non-English speaking. Their problems are greatly amplified.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:04 AM

If I lived in Arizona, I'd sure as heck want to learn Spanish.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:02 AM

I don't know in what way other schools differ but in Alaska an incoming non-English speaking student is 'main-streamed' as quickly as possible. They are not 'segregated' for all their classes nor for the whole school year.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 AM

At issue is probably not so much a Navajo language class, which would probably be taught as an extra-curricular activity, if it was taught in the public classroom at all.

          Ethnic Studies programs that are designed to target Spanish speaking students are tailor made to the system because the students are already segregated by language. To that extent they are "by design" exclusionary.
          We all know how public schools work. If one is in a bilingual-education class for Language Arts, he/she will probably find himself in a similarly populated science class, math class, and etc., simply because that's the only way the schedule can be put together.
          Integrating classes with black students was easier because everyone pretty much spoke the same language.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:17 PM

But are they designed that way?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM

The point that someone else can enroll is relevant, because there is defacto segrigation in Hispanic ethnic studies programs now. If there were a few Anglos in the class, the instructor couldn't lead them down the primrose path.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:17 PM

I read the law. From your original post: ""The measure signed Tuesday prohibits classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race or that promote resentment toward a certain ethnic group." Would you not agree that classes in Navajo are "designed primarily" for Navajo students who wish to speak their ancestral language? The point that someone else can enroll is not relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 07:18 PM

Oh. Then it's okay to teach Spanish? On we go then. No changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

Of course you can, Art. Read the law. You can't discriminate against another ethnic group, or a person from another ethnic group. You can't advocate the overthrow of the government, and you can't preclude a person from some other ethnic group from attending the class. Otherwise, the sky's the limit.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM

Can't do it under the new Arizona law, if you have the money or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM

If there's a school district that can fit Navajo into thier budget, fine. But you wouldn't be serving the students very well if you allowed it to replace algebra.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:40 PM

Yep - so let's have no Navajo taught in the public school.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:26 PM

What an individual teaches to his/her own child is not the concern of a public school district. Arizona makes no attempt to intervene in those activities. They are only concerned about what takes place at public schools using tax-payer money. And they don't think tax revenue should be used to promote racism. That's all they're saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM

Yes because teaching Navajo to your children is racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:27 AM

Actually, there's nothing racist about it. It's an attempt by the state government to rein in racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM

Brewer's edict is blatant racism and discrimination. It's a form of totalitarianism that is very dangerous for US democracy. As with Israel, a disinvestment strategy and boycott is necessary.

The police are losing credibility when they resort to totalitarian tactics to enforce the law.
Showing papers and prohibiting photographs are part of the new dangerous pattern.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:42 AM

Just because I missed almost two weeks of this - and I'm not inclined to go back and reread 100 messages full of 5th grade level drivel - what do ethnic studies and militant Hispanic teachers have to to with one another? Under the Arizona law, off-reservation schools with large Indian student bodies (and there are some in both Arizona and New Mexico that aren't BIA-run) will not be allowed to teach, for example, Navajo. Brewer says that the law isn't directed toward one race (not that Hispanic is a race, of course), so surely Hispanic teachers can't be a target.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:54 PM

Why? Is there something that hasn't been said yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:46 PM

Can we get back to Ethnic Studies and militant Hispanic teachers?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM

At risk of repeating myself, . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:53 PM

Ah, kettle and pot! I see you've met!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:36 PM

Simple seems unable to stem the flow.

Perhaps a dose of paregoric...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:24 PM

Gee, Greg, don't you like my idea?    Nothing to get bent out of shape about--just pure speculation, like yours about my "Jesuit" background (have to say, I've never had that suggestion before).


And now it's your turn, ballerina.   Since it's obvious you have to say something--can't possibly let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:59 PM

Unbelievable.

You don't even have to push Simple's buttons to push his buttons.

Dance, ballerina, dance.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 May 10 - 12:39 PM

So--still no proof from Mr. FO on his assertion.   It begins to look like he can't come up with any--and of course, has not the foggiest notion of the difference between probability and fact.

But, not willing to admit he has made a mistake, he goes down with his unseaworthy vessel--yet again.

I wonder if the tenure theory has any validity. Seems possible. Some colleges probably don't want ideological warriors on their faculty.   They prefer thinkers.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 10:21 PM

I totally agree, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 May 10 - 09:44 PM

Most intelligent thing said in several days, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 08:20 PM

You flatter yourself.

By all means, pray elaborate.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 10 - 08:05 PM

By all means, pray elaborate.

You flatter yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 10 - 06:57 PM

I'll just step in right here: 300.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 06:25 PM

Hey, I think I'm starting to get the hang of Simple's serial posting style! Of course I can't match him in volume yet. Someting to aspire to.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 06:24 PM

Oh, and Mouse- I don't doubt that Simple is grateful for your spitited defense of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 06:22 PM

So Simple, when will we see documantation and quotations in support of your myriad theories & asssertions?

Would also be interested in your analyses and refutations of the unsubstantiated theories of gravity and evolution, for a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 06:19 PM

"Fuck off"... is always an overreaction.

We'll just have to disagree on that, Mouse.

...someone like you...

By all means, pray elaborate.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 30 May 10 - 02:59 PM

"Fuck off" (which I already knew the definition of, but thanks for the condescending and snide "help" -- not at all unexpected from someone like you) is always an overreaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 10 - 01:48 PM

Q--, as far as I know you can always choose not to read it.   But perhaps somebody is forcing you to do so.

Mr. FO--if you by some chance don't enjoy my looking down at you, you could always try hauling yourself out of the gutter.   Unless it's too much effort or goes against the essence of your being.

And if we're going to speculate, let's pursue the tenure theory a bit.    Say for instance, Mr. FO was an assistant professor at a small college, never did get tenure, and has been bitter at historians--and anybody who asks for logic and proof--ever since.

Just a theory.   To go with the "Jesuit" theory.





Not that I would argue with the idea that this thread is played out.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 May 10 - 01:11 PM

Two inconsiderate -------- using up mudcat disc space for no purpose.

"Jesuitical bullshit" Time to close this stupid thread, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 12:30 PM

You measn you developed your line of Jesuitical bullshit all by yourself without any format training, Simple? Fascinating.

Now about those proofs and documentation for your assertions?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 10 - 12:08 PM

Jesuit?    That's interesting.   And that theory is based on what, pray tell?    Jesuits are not the only ones interested in logic.

But, as a beloved sage likes to say: "Rave on."


Actually, as I noted earlier, I think we have a wonderful division of labor.   Mr FO wallows in the gutter and I look down and comment.   Works for me.

In fact, we both seem to really like our respective roles.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 11:12 AM

General Query:

Anyone know which Jesuit educational institutions Simple Seeker attenced?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 11:08 AM

As I suspected, Oh Simple Seeker! The rules are for others only, not your own exalted self.

So, Fuck off.

Oh, excuse me- your virgin ears-

Bugger off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 10 - 10:47 AM

Greg still has that problem with reading. Poor boy. The person who makes the assertion has the burden of proof--as Mouse and I have said more than once.

That would be you, Greg, dear boy.

Sure hope the world starts treating you better soon.   You really don't always sound happy.

Tenure problem, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 10:41 AM

For Mouse's Benefit:

fuck off vb: To leave, go away. A vulgarism that is used in regular verb forms and as an interjection. See also sod off, piss off, bugger off.
Thorne, Dictionary of Contemporary Slang.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 10:36 AM

Not so, Oh Omniscient Simple Seeker!

I'm simply waiting for you to produce evidence and references for your OWN points and assertions- which you have so far failed to do.

Of course, you're exempt from your own rules & strictures...

The old Seeker Bait-And-Switch, as per expectations.

Fuck Off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 10 - 10:25 AM

"...Hispanic Timothy McVeighs".   So therefore all whites are guilty of his crimes and should be punished?. Try following your own logic.

Since this is what you are advocating for all Hispanics by your support of these classically stupid laws in Arizona--which even the police who are to enforce them (at least the checking of citizenship documents--don't want.

And you still haven't told us why you like trial lawyers so much--since in the cases of both laws the courts will be tied up with pointless trials for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 10 - 10:17 AM

I note with interest that Mr. FO has addressed none of my points.   Especially the difference between probability and fact.

Situation normal.

"...classically wretched standard-bearer for the profession of history"


QED

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 09:25 AM

And its "Fuck Off", not "Fuck You".

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 10 - 09:23 AM

Hi, Mouse-

You missed a key phrase: reactions way out of proportion to the stimulus.

Considering Simple's postings, "Fuck Off" is in no way out of proportion or an over-reaction, but entirely apposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 10 - 11:37 PM

Now I think on it, aren't constantly recurring reactions way out of proportion to the stimulus involved a sign of some sort of pathology or psychosis?

You mean constantly recurring reactions like "Fuck you"? Yes I'd say that's a sign of some sort of pathology or psychosis. But hey I'm no shrink.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 10 - 05:59 PM

Hullo, Mouse:

...why do you even post here? You don't seem to want to contribute to the conversation...

Try directing that question to His Eminence the Simple Seeker.

Is it just that you enjoy having captive victims...

I hardly see Simple in the role of a victim or a captive.
Quite the contrary. Nor is he plural- thank god.

Attempts at "contributing to the conversation" bring down multiple lengthly streams of diahorrhea from He Who Must Be Obeyed.

Now I think on it, aren't constantly recurring reactions way out of proportion to the stimulus involved a sign of some sort of pathology or psychosis?

Well anyway, have a nice evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 10 - 05:58 PM

"Sure, Rig, "they're out there". Are all whites Timothy McVeigh or the Unabomber?"


                  Ron, you've made my point for me. I've said many times that most Hispanic teachers are trying to teach the course material that they were hired to teach. They're just doing their job, so to speak.

                   But there are some Hispanic Timothy McVeighs out there, and those are the ones the Arizona law is trying to contain.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 29 May 10 - 04:46 PM

Greg, why do you even post here? You don't seem to want to contribute to the conversation. Or you're incapable thereof and don't realize it. Is it just that you enjoy having captive victims to say "fuck off" to? Does this give you some kind of a sexual thrill that results in overconsumption of facial tissues? What's the deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 10 - 04:29 PM

Man, you sure do like to hear yourself talk, dontcha, Simple! You're your own biggest fan. Rave on.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 10 - 03:10 PM

"...low esteem by..."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 10 - 03:08 PM

Sure, Rig, "they're out there". Are all whites Timothy McVeigh or the Unabomber?

Smears R Us, I see, is still in business--even though the merchandise is a bit threadbare--to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 10 - 03:05 PM

Once they have picked a certain conclusion, they consider no other hypotheses. Somebody like Mr. FO who cannot tell the difference between probability and fact is a classically wretched standard-bearer for the profession of history.

It's only too bad that pointing out his feeble grasp of the process of learning is so sinfully addictive. ( I should be not be spending time on this--but it's too much fun.)

Not that I would by any of this want to criticize him. Heaven forbid.

Since above all we want him to be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 10 - 02:57 PM

It is entirely possible that Thomas Jefferson had 4 children by Sally Hemings.   Nobody said it was not. But it is not certain-- contrary to the fondest hopes of Mr. FO, the DNA evidence is by no means conclusive in pointing to Thomas Jefferson as the father. There are counter-arguments.   It boils down, as I've said before, to a question of probability. Some historians see a high degree of probability, some a lower degree. To claim it as a proven fact shows the sloppy writing--and sloppy thinking--we've come to expect from Mr. FO--on many topics.

Particularly interesting is the fact that Mr. FO has still, despite being asked multiple times to do so, not deigned to give us any evidence beyond the singular useless bromide " DNA doesn't lie".   Nobody said it did.

As Mousethief has noted, the burden is on the person who makes the assertion--here, that Thomas Jefferson had 4 children by Sally Hemings--to give the proof.   It is not the burden of the reader to convince himself that the other person is correct.

It's true I make no claim to being a professional historian. My claim is much more modest--I'm just a better historian, by far, than Mr. FO. This is indeed no great accomplishment--even Rig, who is beset on every hand by terrible conspiracies, is willing to change his view on an issue and to consider various possible interpretations of information.

This is called learning--a process totally foreign to Mr FO.

It's also interesting that Mr. FO has not found time to tell us whether he makes his living from history or not. Heaven knows that if he does, it's a sad commentary on the profession and a good indication of why the social sciences are held in such low esteem to practitioners of the hard sciences. The social sciences are far too often represented by ideological warriors--Mr FO, to take a completely theoretical example-- who insist in squeezing history into their particular straitjacket, rather than examining all sides of an issue.


To be continued.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 May 10 - 08:43 AM

"'Rig, the "militant Hispanic" teachers are in your head.'"

            I've worked with them; they're out there. Why do you think the Arizona Legislature included language prohibiting advocating the over throw of the government. You need to visit a MEChA website, or check into the myth of Aztlan.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 May 10 - 07:35 AM

Simple: Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 10 - 09:35 PM

And to the topic--which also bears an amazing resemblance to a dead horse:    Rig, the "militant Hispanic" teachers are in your head.   And nowhere else.

But of course they will never leave--your head.   Since you want them there.

Too bad there is such a huge disconnect between your head and the real world.   Even more of a problem is that there is more than one person who shares your peculiar delusion.   And that such people vote.   That's probably the worst part.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 10 - 09:26 PM

Exactly.   Failure to even want to communicate, by Mr "Fuck Off".   At least we know what the F stands for.

Look, it's very simple.   Should even be simple enough for Mr. FO. Either you can provide proof that Jefferson had 4 childen by Sally Hemings or you cannot.

As Mousethief has noted:   "If you make a claim, it's your job to support it. It's not my job to convince myself you're right. If you can't support it I have no recourse but to think you are lying or deluded."

Gee I wonder if which one it is for Mr. FO:   lying or deluded?

Actually there's one more possibility, and it's the one I'd put my money on: he has such a fragile ego that he can't bring himself --ever--to admit he is wrong.   Again.

Which, as I've noted before, accounts for the waterlogged state of his carcass.

Once more with feeling:   the idea that Jefferson had 4 children by Sally Hemings is a matter of probability, not a fact.

And Mr FO has provided precisely zero proof that this is not so.

We're still waiting.

What's more, from the number of times he says "Fuck off" I sometimes get a inkling that he might not be happy.   Which would be a true tragedy, since as I've noted, the main purpose of Mudcat is to make him happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 May 10 - 07:29 PM

`What we have here is a failure to communicate.`

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 10 - 06:33 PM

After that idiotic statement, Rig, I think the off-topic crap, name-calling and personal attacks were preferable.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 May 10 - 05:58 PM

So, getting back to the topic: bilingual education produces the segregation that militant Hispanic teachers need in order to radicalize the students.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 May 10 - 11:33 AM

It makes it hard to contribute to the topic of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 May 10 - 11:21 AM

I find it interesting that I can be off-line for 10 days...and come back and see the same few people making the same rude comments about each other while contributing nothing additional to the topic. Have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 28 May 10 - 10:52 AM

Yesterday there were 639 posts on Mudcat.

A few years ago there were usually over 900.

Seems that the off-topic crap, name-calling and personal attacks have taken their toll.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 10 - 09:09 AM

So now the poster imagines himself to be a Roman statesman.

Simple is as simple does, I suppose. Hard to believe His Magnificence took this as a serious claim, & that engendered almost a full screen's worth of his usual spew.

But then, Simple has always been the star of a movie the script of which he wrote himself. And he apparently impresses himself mightily.

And, inter alia, he somehow sees desire for censorship....

WTF??? to paraphrase Barney Frank, what planet does Simple spend most of his time on?

Point was that he, in his Glorious Omniscience, is able to evaluate and pontificate upon the contents of books without reading them.

Enough. After careful consideration, the only appropriate response to The Simple Seeker After Truth remains:

Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 May 10 - 11:55 PM

Here's the point, Ron. If young students entering a school environment do not speak the native language, they are then herded into bilingual education classes in which they are, in effect, segregated. So people who favor bilingual education are, by definition, segregationists.

               But it doesn't stop there. Once you have these students segregated, militant teachers can then take advantage of that situation to radicalize them at a very early age. Those teachers then have, in a sense, created an army with which to overthrow the government, all of which makes the Arizona law make so much sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 10 - 10:33 PM

"...horrors of illegal immigration".   To which your solutions have been proven absurd or disastrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 10 - 10:31 PM

So now the poster imagines himself to be a Roman statesman.   Sure can't fault him on lack of imagination.

And, inter alia, he somehow sees desire for censorship. Perhaps he'd like to give some actual examples of this--as opposed to a desire for communication--which as the poster appears not to realize, can actually be done without gutter language. What a concept.

By the way, Greg, do you make your living in history, either writing it, teaching, or some other capacity?   Inquiring minds need to know. If so, I wonder why you can't tell the difference between a probability and a fact.   Perhaps you should consider another line of work---anything else.   

But it appears it would also have to be something with no interaction with humans.   Somewhat limits your choices.

I certainly pity anybody who comes into contact with you--since communication is another mystery to you, it appears.

Yes, friends and neighbors, it looks like yet another sinking ship to whose mast Greg has lashed his already water-logged carcass. He does pay a price for his fragile ego. But I'm sure he sees it all as worth it--as long as he can preserve his fantasy of being the only Mudcatter who has never made a mistake, thus has never had to admit error. Spending most of his time under water with the other wrecked vessels he has picked out, is, I'm sure, a small price to pay-- in his mind.

And of course he does manage to avoid the awful burden of having to think before hitting "send". Actually that seems to be the main problem--that demand is just too much of a burden for him.

The above is of course all meant constructively; no criticism is implied. Of course not.



Sorry (this is a recording):   the burden of proof is still on the poster in question--and no one else.

Maybe he can ask Cato about the proof on the 4 of Sally Hemings' children which he thinks were by Jefferson. The poster appears to have had no luck finding any proof anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 27 May 10 - 09:40 PM

Cato could hold his own.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 May 10 - 02:13 PM

Getting back to Ethnic Studies, it's occurred to me the if these kids go into bi-lingual education classes when they first start school, they would be egregated from the rest of the school population from that point forward. The whole thing traces itself back to the horrors of illegal immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 10 - 02:10 PM

Boy, I bet Cato never had to put up with this kind of abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 27 May 10 - 11:56 AM

Stop digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 10 - 11:43 AM

Its more an altimiter, Mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 27 May 10 - 11:29 AM

No, it's not a rant, just a barometer of your intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 10 - 11:20 AM

His course would consist entirely of "fuck off."

I shouldn't think a course would be required for most individuals, Mouse. Two words is hardly a rant - except, apparently, to The Omniscient One.

Besides, its just my homage to Cato the Elder.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 27 May 10 - 10:26 AM

Though admittedly he could give a master class in obscene ranting.


Huh? His course would consist entirely of "fuck off." It would be over after the first lecture, everybody could take a one-question final exam and go back to beer and random sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 10 - 09:16 AM

Thus Spake His Simple Omniscience:

I am not a professional historian

Rather belaboring the obvious.

Otherwise, the usual pile of steaming bull-crap from His Magnificence, not so neatly side-stepping (ignoring?)the germaine and any of the points at issue.

And talk about ex catheter statements....

Still So Simple- Fuck Off.

(Bibliography of works on historiography available upon request.)

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 10 - 08:38 AM

"...that said poster..."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 10 - 08:37 AM

I am not a professional historian. Just an avid amateur. But a bit more serious than the poster in question.

I would certainly hope that said the poster makes no claims to be a serious historian--I'm afraid that in itself would give the profession a bad name.   Much as it pains me--and you know it does-- I'd have to say that it does not take much to be more serious than the poster, who seemingly has no idea of the difference between a fact and a probability, and considers that obscene ranting substitutes for logic and facts.   

Though admittedly he could give a master class in obscene ranting.

But don't worry, we'll teach him logical thinking and careful writing--it's obvious somebody needs to. Not that we'll ever bring him out of the gutter--which is after all, his home.

And in the meantime, he does provide--at least fitfully amusing--entertainment.

But sometimes I think he's not happy. And that troubles me--since his happiness is paramount over all else on Mudcat.


But the burden of proof, as Mousethief noted, is still on the poster in question, and nobody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 10 - 08:13 AM

Looks like the The Towering Intellect and Logician, a.k.a. Simple Seeker is one of those who would censor and/or ban books without reading them. Fascinating.

Interesting also that he would undertake the hopeless task of attempting to prove a negative - and characteristically without providing any
facts of his own.

So its still Simple: Fuck Off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 10 - 07:49 AM

Gee, Greg, it looks like you still haven't learned the difference between a fact and a probability.

You might want to open a dictionary at some point.

As Mousethief points out, the burden is on you to support your theory. Thus far, no proof has been provided.

As I said, a historian will point out if an assertion he makes is a fact or a theory.   Not that I would say that you are a dilettante and no historian. I certainly wouldn't want to say that.


But we certainly have a wonderful symbiotic relationship, don't we?   You wallow in the gutter and I look down at you and admire your technique of wallowing--even though it certainly seems to indicate a rather limited vocabulary. And we're both quite happy. Please don't tell me you're not happy.   I don't know how I could live with that knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 10 - 07:34 AM

Ah, but then, oh Simplistic Simple Seeker, its not the list, its what's IN the books.

Mouse- There's no point my trying to communicate with SS the All Knowing Asshole. The info is posted for those who might actually want the facts.

Almost forgot- Seeker: Fuck Off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 May 10 - 10:31 PM

Yikes!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 26 May 10 - 09:36 PM

You would think from the frequency that Greg says "fuck off" he really doesn't want to talk with you. And then he keeps coming back. Clearly it's a meaningless ejaculation from him. I'll bet his wife is used to meaningless ejaculations from him.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 10 - 09:32 PM

Let us know when you're willing to provide proof, not theories.

Lists of books are, sorry to say, no proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 May 10 - 09:17 PM

Oh Very, Very Simple One:

1. since you are incapable of performing even the Simplest tasks for yourself,like a two-second web search for example, start here:

www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings_resource.html

2. For a detailed explanation see Gordon-Reed's Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings: an American Controversy Univ. of Va Press, 1997.

3. For an analysis of more recent information, see Gordon-Reed's The Hemingses of Monticello: An American Family W. W. Norton, 2008

5. Fuck Off

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:43 PM

Also, Rig, you may think that the French situation is vastly different from the US situation regarding birthright citizenship.

Not so.   It is exactly the point that your proposal to withdraw birthright citizenship from the children of illegal immigrants would create precisely the same disastrous situation in the US as France now has:    a young underclass with no citizenship here and no ties anywhere else.

It is a classic loser of an idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:38 PM

"...recent DNA results..."

What a wonderful little mantra.   The poster certainly has hypnotized himself with it.

A bit puzzling that there is no actual proof cited.

And by the way, history is an inexact science only to the lazy.

The rest of us don't make blunt statements without proof. A historian would couch this assertion in terms of probability.    Which "of which 4 were his children" is not.

I recognize that we really can't expect anything but sloppy writing--to go with sloppy thinking of course---from the poster in question.

But he has cited no proof that 4 of the slaves Jefferson freed were his own children--perhaps for the very good reason that there is no proof.


Mousethief has put it exquisitely well:


"If you make a claim, it's your job to support it. It's not my job to convince myself you're right. If you can't support it, I have no recourse but to think you are lying or deluded."   

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 May 10 - 08:10 PM

"'Much of what I can gather from Arizona (and elsewhere) is that those in charge deem studies that present a White perspective to be quite alright. Other stuff then becomes so-called "ethnic studies." How quaint.'"

               There are people who do not live in border states that are not familiar with the concept of Aztlan, and the organization called MEChA, and how this mythology works to undermine society in general. It might make sense to wonder why the law on Ethnic Studies goes to the trouble to forbid a teacher from advocating an overthrow to the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 May 10 - 07:54 AM

I'll take it under advisement.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 10 - 11:48 PM

Yep. It's not too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 08:00 PM

"Ascertaining white supremisism is not that difficult, really. For instance, you. If you don't want to go down in history with that label you gotta start mending your ways..."


             You think so, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:50 PM

That's a good idea, Bobert, but I'd give 'em a couple of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:44 PM

It would seem that if a number of historian from diverse ethnic backgrounds were to be put in a room with about a month to rewrite an American History book that told the entire story in a factual manner we would get something that might just make ethnic studes a thing of the past...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 10 - 05:44 PM

No wonder you keep seeing things that don't exist. You have a strange way of debating, Grasshopper.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 05:36 PM

Lie down on the couch, cover hour forehead with a warm, moist towel, close your eyes, and it will come to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 10 - 05:31 PM

I don't see that from what Greg has written, Rig. You must have access to other writings that don't appear here.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 10 - 05:12 PM

Unless you have the verse and the name of the 'greatest Aztec poet', Rig, there is no argument.

Ascertaining white supremisism is not that difficult, really. For instance, you. If you don't want to go down in history with that label you gotta start mending your ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 04:52 PM

By Greg's definition if you compare the greatest Aztec poet to Shakespeare, and you determine Shakespeare if better, you are by definition a white supremeist.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 10 - 02:58 PM

What does that have to do with the price of Kahlua in Guadalupe?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 02:15 PM

Oh, I don't know. When you're comparing the greatest all time Aztec poet to Shakespeare, how do you define quality?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 10 - 01:10 PM

those in charge deem studies that present a White perspective to be quite alright. Other stuff then becomes so-called "ethnic studies."

Precisely. And its more than "quaint" - its disingenuous & hypocritical-
not to say white supremecist.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 01:08 PM

Yes, ethnic studies is probably at the root of the Balkanizing of America. It should be scrutinized carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 May 10 - 12:33 PM

I would suggest that because history tends to take the perspective of the writer, much of what is in school texts is already biased.

When Olive P Dickason wrote "Myth of the Savage" she demonstrated clearly that the Iroquois had a functioning democracy in mid-eastern Canada and north-astern US long before Europeans ever came here. That is largely ignored.

I know of fewhistory texts used below undergraduate level that fairly treat Blacks, Mexicans, Asians or Native North Americans. Much of what I can gather from Arizona (and elsewhere) is that those in charge deem studies that present a White perspective to be quite alright. Other stuff then becomes so-called "ethnic studies." How quaint.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:50 AM

"You like your society to be on fire?"

               The case in France is different. But read Sanity's post. It captures most of the essentials.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:34 AM

And it also does not prove that Jefferson had any children by Sally Hemings.

For Simple-
1. Please provide references for this assertion.

Nobody asked for pages and pages of quotations.

2. No, you asked for one-liners and sound bites that "prove" nothing whatsoever.

3. Fuck off.

To everyone else:

To anyone willing to give the matter a fair hearing, the recent DNA results combined with other accumulated evidence DOES prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Bibliography available on request.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 25 May 10 - 01:14 AM

You like your society to be on fire?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:41 PM

Oh well!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:03 PM

You don't understand, Rig.   The young underclass is people born in France (or the US, depending) who know no other life than life in France, and still are not citizens.

It is absurd to expect them to go to, say Algeria, if that is where the parents were born.   They have no connection to Algeria whatsoever.

There is no place to go "back" to.

They are rootless anywhere--and if they are poor, that is more tinder for the fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 10 - 09:28 PM

"And Rig, there just is no way to take away birthright citizenship without creating a young underclass with no stake in the success of the country."

                The point is, they can go back to the country for which they hold citizenship, and fix whatever is wrong there. We don't need them mucking things up here.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 10 - 09:08 PM

It also seems that Greg has stopped jumping up and down in ecstasy. Which is all to the good--too much of that might raise his blood pressure.

And I would like to reiterate that I think Greg has truly earned his big gold star.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 10 - 08:56 PM

And Rig, there just is no way to take away birthright citizenship without creating a young underclass with no stake in the success of the country.   That is exactly the lesson of France's recent problems. And they have not solved them--there will be more unrest.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 10 - 08:52 PM

"DNA doesn't lie."   Fine. And it also does not prove that Jefferson had any children by Sally Hemings.

Even though this may be an article of faith among those left of center, the rest of us have slightly higher standards of proof than the above bald statement.

Nobody asked for pages and pages of quotations. That's a remarkably convenient dodge. Somebody who can do research ought to be able to give a straight answer in a few sentences--with exact source and page number.

It's amazing that the poster has not found the time to do this. He must be quite busy.

But it's good to know that he's feeling more comfortable now back in his home in the gutter.

As I've said before, making him happy is of course the #1 goal for everybody on Mudcat. It certainly is for me. I can't imagine a higher calling in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 10 - 11:42 PM

Okay, thanks Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 10 - 10:28 PM

Rig, I was speaking only to His Royal Highness, and Simple Seeker would get on his pet hobby-horse Hubris if I said the world was round. He may use more and different words to say "fuck off" - but his meaning is clear.

Have a nice evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 10 - 10:24 PM

If you make a claim, it's your job to support it...

Well, Mouse, its like this. With very little trouble, anyone can find a single quotation by a single author to support any sort of lunatic idea that comes down the pike. You need only refer to the Simple Seeker's bloviation for examples.

History - not being an exact science- is pretty much about how the preponderance of evidence comes down. And a lot of this evidence is in primary sources rather than in popular works.

There isn't room this forum to post vast quantities of this information - evidence, if you like - so I've posted where this evidence can be found.

If that ain't enough, well, sorry, but I can't spoon feed everyone and wipe everyone's ass like Simple wants me to.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 10 - 09:00 PM

Greg, maybe if you didn't end your posts with the instructions to "fuck off" people wouldn't get so agitated about them. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:54 PM

WE? You mean you? Tough Shit. I don't have time to type the necessary pages on pages of extracts from several studies, and they'd exceed the posting limits here anyway. You don't want to educate yourself? Fine. But that's on you, not me.

If you make a claim, it's your job to support it. It's not my job to convince myself you're right. If you can't support it, I have no recourse but to think you are lying or deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:39 PM

Oh Simple One:

"..of which 4 were his children". Unproven.

1. DNA doesn't lie. Try reading something published in the last decade. Apparently you see no need for your exalted self to "document" this assertion, or anything else you assert below.

By the way, just a book is not sufficient. We need direct quotes.

2. WE? You mean you? Tough Shit. I don't have time to type the necessary pages on pages of extracts from several studies, and they'd exceed the posting limits here anyway. You don't want to educate yourself? Fine. But that's on you, not me.

You seem to think history can be adequately presented with by one-liners and sound bites. Not so. Sources posted, above, to Rig. Go read'em.

...he did not in fact free most of his slaves--they were sold at auction after his death. Care to dispute that point?

3. Jesus wept. Never did, asshole, and won't now. Learn to read.

...remarkable that you insist on quibbling over 5 or 10...

4. Yes oh Seeker After "Truth", I can understand why you would think correcting a factual error is "quibbling".

... which you only belabored in order to put Rig down...

5. What I did was correct a misstatement of fact. The individual who is "belaboring" this is and has been your own overly verbose self.

6. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:28 PM

"...the idea of taking away birthright citizenship is a certified crackpot notion... take a look at France recently for a likely outcome of such a move."

             Ron - I would agree that France did it the wrong way. On the other hand, they had a lot of agreements with former colonies that kind of boxed them in.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:21 PM

Our problems aren't the result of anyone (legal or not) that comprise the working class... Our problems are the result of allowing corporations to police themselves... Yeah, mouse is entirely correct... You can trace this to Reagan and deregulation...

(But, Boberdz, the government is bad, bad, bad...)

Oh??? Until ***you*** need it then it's yer best friend...

True story: I know the family of this man here in the "holler" who had a stroke 4 months ago... I know these people to be some of the most voacl people in denoucing the government... They are Rush Limbaugh listeners... So when this man's 90 days of long term care were up and the long term care facility was asking that this man use his savings to pay for his care these people were livid... Pissed off at the government yet again??? Why??? Well, that's purdy simple... These folks thought they were going to inherit this man's savings and are now very pissed off that the government isn't there to provide unlimited payment thru Medicare for his care???

This is the problem I have with ignorant people who preach all this anti-government crap... When the chips are down they can't get enough government...

Beam me up, Scotty... The dumbed down folks are wearin' me out...

b~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:13 PM

I agree, mouse, that the most immediate problem--in fact a number of problems--had to do with a ground game that was put into play while Reagan was in office.

             The problems with the 1965 immigration laws have to do with "family reunification," and what the US will accept as a definition of "refugee."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 22 May 10 - 05:04 PM

It seems to me that the 1965 immigration act is the thing that started the country down the lack-of-cooperation road that we find ourselves on now.

I don't see it. You're trying to tie it back to immigration because that's your pet issue.

The lack of cooperation we see now started with Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 10 - 03:00 PM

Certainly the idea of taking away birthright citizenship is a certified crackpot notion--as I've pointed out elsewhere, take a look at France recently for a likely outcome of such a move.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 10 - 02:58 PM

Bobert has it right on the poisoned political climate--and the result that there will be no more amendments for the foreseeable future.

Most of those proposed don't deserve to see the light of day anyway--so that would be an example of a good justification for the difficulty of the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 10 - 02:40 PM

"..of which 4 were his children".   Unproven.

Interesting that you also don't bother to provide a direct quote for your assertion about 10 slaves. It may be 5, it may be 10--certainly was not many.    If it is 10, we need a bit more than your bald statement, Professor.

By the way, just a book is not sufficient.   We need direct quotes.

Other people provide exact quotes, with source.   Somehow you can't manage this. It does tend to undercut your wonderfully valuable contributions, just a bit. But we need these so we can evaluate how reliable your sources are.   I'm sure you won't mind.

So sorry to break the news to you-- as of now your credibility is somewhat below zero---even below Wikipedia. Pobrecito.



Added to which, the main point is that he did not in fact free most of his slaves--they were sold at auction after his death.

Care to dispute that point?




And is certainly remarkable that you insist on quibbling over 5 or 10---neglecting the main point, which was that despite his fine words about equality, he could not put them into practice in his own life, since it would dramatically lessen his standard of living, and due to other financial problems.   Due to his financial straits, he could not even do what Washington did in his will.

And of course the whole topic, which you only belabored in order to put Rig down, has precious little-- to say the least--to do with the thread topic.

Not that I would want to assert that it does, on the other hand, have a huge amount to do with your fragile ego.   I can't say that.

But I do hope you didn't hurt yourself jumping around in triumph.    That would be a true shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 10 - 09:16 AM

Back to Wikipedia for this:

The Twenty-seventh Amendment (Amendment XXVII) prohibits any law that increases or decreases the salary of members of the Congress from taking effect, until the start of the next set of terms of office for Representatives. It is the most recent amendment to the United States Constitution, having been ratified in 1992, more than 202 years after its initial submission in 1789.


It seems to me that the 1965 immigration act is the thing that started the country down the lack-of-cooperation road that we find ourselves on now.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 10 - 08:45 AM

Their seems to be at least two problems here regarding the Founding Fathers and the problems of today...

1. Their mindset was much different from ours... Had they envisoned kids carryin; assault rifles into schools they certainly would have made it clearer that "gunownershipt" was realted to the right to maintain a militia... I think the languge isn't all that muddy but I'm sure that the FFs would have made it so clear that even a "caveman" would understand it... Yes, they also held slaves... That fact, in itself, suggests that they had a much different cultural mindset than most folks have today...

2. Their thinking that the Constitution would be a living document that coule easilly be ammended to fit the times was wrong... Yes, it did work for awhile but it no longer works... It is impossible to ammend the constitution anymore... There falt out will be no more ammendments... The political climate is too poisoned for that to occur and people on the right have played games with the process with flivelous pieces of crap, such as flag burning, to reduce the process to, at best, a joke...

So that is the current situation and looking to the FFs, as if they would be able to help us if they were to come back to life with their 1700's mindsets, is an exercise in futility...

Me thinks that unless the right wing loosens up a little that they willl, in theri pure interests in reagining power and $$$$, will destroy the country from their stranglehold using severaly dumbed down Epsilons as their swords and shields...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 10 - 08:37 AM

Do they do this in public schools in Arizona? I don't know; I'm just asking.

Hint: do a search for "Arizona schools" and "creationism" and/or "intelligent design".

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 May 10 - 08:18 AM

Then he revised his view, based on what he had read on Wiki--which is in fact accurate on this point...[that, per "Blog-O-Pedia: Jefferson finally emancipated his five most trusted slaves (two, his alleged mixed-race sons)]

No, Simple Seeker, it is not in fact accurate, it is bullshit.

Jefferson freed ten slaves, of which 4 were his children.

Try again; it's called learning. At some point you might want to look into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: DougR
Date: 22 May 10 - 01:50 AM

Since Greg F. is the originator of this hypothonise, I cannot comment, even though I live in Arizona.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 10 - 09:34 PM

"1. indoctrinate them with fundamentalist christian[sic]nonsense..."
"2. teach that the world is less than 6,000 years old..."

             Do they do this in public schools in Arizona? I don't know; I'm just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 May 10 - 09:27 PM

OK, Greg: Rig did say Jefferson did not free his slaves.

So you are right on that. Congratulations to you. Feel free to jump around yelling: "I'm right. Ron Davies admits it." (But please try not to fall.   We don't want you to hurt yourself.)

And you also get a big gold star.


Then he revised his view, based on what he had read on Wiki--which is in fact accurate on this point--as I have pointed out.

Adults are allowed to revise their views.   Perhaps such an idea doesn't occur to you.

However, it's called learning. At some point you might want to look into it.   After all, if Rig can do it, it sounds like it might also be possible for you. Just another helpful suggestion.

It also may stop you from getting quite so waterlogged.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 May 10 - 06:42 PM

...but I seriously doubt they had in mind modernizing [the constitution ] to fit the political philosophy ...

That's the problem wit presentism and the blinkered view it engenders.

The founding mothers and fathers seemed to have no problem "modernizing" the dominant political milieu of preceeding several milennia in order to create their document in the first place, and in so doing, shaping it to their OWN political philosophy.

Modern right-wing mewling notwithstanding...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 May 10 - 06:37 PM

Arizonians seem to have no problem allowing children take part in public-school programs that:

1. indoctrinate them with fundamentalist christian[sic]nonsense

2. teach that the world is less than 6,000 years old

3. mis-represent the actual role the U.S. has played vis a vis other countries in this hemisphere and how it has historically treated segments of its own population.

4. etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 10 - 05:50 PM

Rig: I agree.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:24 PM

No, Doug, I don't think they did either. Neither do I think they intended amendments to remain unchanged which allow for a wholesale invasion of the United States by a foreign enemy, but that's what has been happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 10 - 03:11 PM

True, Rig, they did make it possible for the Constitution to be amended, but I seriously doubt they had in mind modernizing it to fit the political philosophy of any one political party, liberal or conservative.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 10 - 03:07 PM

As to the law itself, The Arizona Republic urged the governor NOT to sign the Bill into law. That did not mean, however, that the newspaper supported the program. Yesterday the editorial in that newspaper had the following headline: "LAW IS PROBLEM BUT SO IS MESSAGE OF THESE CLASSES." In the body of the editorial the following question is posed: Would I let my child take part in a public-school program that: Is directed by someone who declares, flat out: "Our teachers are left-leaning. They are progressives. They're going to have things (in the classrooms) that conservatives are not going to like.:" - Dr. Augustine Romero, Feb. 1, 2008.

+ Originally was exsposed for it's political activism not by Republican state schools Superintendent Tom HOrfen, but by two TUSD theachers, both Hispanic. Both of whom subsequently have been vidiously attacked by the ethnic-studies radicals as ...racists.

+Featured at its annual institute for Transformative Education summer seminar for district teachers, students and other speakers who are avowed Marxists including Dr. Peter McLaren of UCLA, who in his video taped keynote address in 2008 shared such nuggests with TUSD teachers and students as these:
"The real god of the U.S. is violence; its creed being violence saves.'"
"Revolutionary violence can be justified."
"In a capitalist societgy, your're either part of the capitalist class or part of the working class."

+ Is committed to the instructional dogma of South American Marxist education theoretician Paolo Friere, who's book "Pedagogy of the Opperessed" explicitly urges recruiting students to the communist revolution.

+ Teaches students to defy their own (remarkably timid) school officials to demonstrate against Horne; ther demonstration last week included street theater in which a student playing "Horne" was left lying "dead" on the grass. At last we see some hints of what truly goes on in TUSD's ethnic-sstudies classrooms.

"Is this what the apologists for TUSD's ethnic-studies program really wish for these Arizona students? Would they eally tolerate such activism if these were their children being manipulated? Not likely.

End of editorial.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 10 - 02:50 PM

They made provisions for the constitution to be amended, which is why the 14th amendment needs to be amended now to eliminate "birthright citizenship."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: DougR
Date: 21 May 10 - 02:46 PM

I haven't read this whole thread but I scanned it and Spaw, I found your post of May 14 at 01:06 PM interesting. You wrote, "Were I teaching I would suggest that we are possibly in need of another revolution. So would many of our "founding fathers" who never expected the Constitution to be a document for the ages and that it would maended (I think you probably meant to say "be amended") when it could be and rewritten when it should be to change with the times."

This statement calls for some "mindreading" of the founding fathers who are no longer with us. Therefore, IMO, it becomes opinion. I would argue that if the founders intended that the Constitution be updated as time goes by, they would have written that into the Constitution. I don't believe they did.

Tongue firmly planted in cheek, in the event that a Revolution were to take place, I cannot imagine for a minute that the liberal thinkers would come out on top. Winning would require that they bear arms and actually hurt and kill people. Who is opposed to bearing arms? Who consistently opposes wars? Why, liberal thinkers of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 10 - 08:43 AM

7:44 was me. I dropped my cookie.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 May 10 - 08:36 AM

Oh Simple Seeker of Truth:

MY attitude?

1.ROFLMAO

2. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 10 - 07:44 AM

"Richard D. Lamm was a Democrat who served as governor of Colorado for twelve years from 1975 to 1987."

           &nbs p;    Yes, pdq, I've often lamented over the 1996 election. If only Ross Perot could have contained his ego and had let Richard Lamm run for president as his party's candidate, the immigration disaster would have come up then.
           &nbs p;    People are just now beginning to figure out what's happened to them because the mainstream media didn't want to talk about it. Just this month there's a blurb in Harper's about how much it would cost to round up all the illegals and ship them out of the country. It's just simply childish they way they treat this problem, but I don't think they can sweep it under the rug any longer.

(Riginslinger)

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 10 - 10:04 PM

Gee, Greg, hope you feel better soon.   So sorry life is treating you so badly. I'm sure it has nothing to do with your own attitude.

You might be interested to know that people are in fact allowed to change their attitudes.   Just as they can revise what they say.

If their egos will let them.   

Just a friendly reminder.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 10 - 07:54 PM

pdq,

Very interesting manifesto... And further proof that in this world there are more horses asses than there are horses...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 May 10 - 07:44 PM

Of course, logic is always helpful too, but...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 10 - 01:45 PM

"Jefferson finally emancipated his five most trusted slaves.":   Rig, quoting the beloved Wikipedia.

1.Indeed he did, oh All-Knowing and All-Seeing One! but AFTER I called him to task.

2. Of course, chronology and facts aren't your long suit, are they?

3. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 May 10 - 10:35 AM

"Heck, Rigs... Trying to teach a mindset is almost impossible... Just give the kids the facts and let 'um figure the rest out..."


            Geat! If we'er going to teach facts we'd have to leave the myth of Aztlan out of it. Without Aztlan, the rest is history.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 10 - 09:17 AM

Teaching history will be a problem if Arizona tries to enforce this law.    I understand that about 30% of Arizona's current population is of Hispanic background.    When it comes time to talk about the Mexican War, it sounds like they'll have to say that what is now Arizona was formerly part of, say, the Chinese empire.

Otherwise they may be violating this new law by raising resentment in children of Hispanic descent.

Too bad about actual facts, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 May 10 - 09:08 AM

"Jefferson finally emancipated his five most trusted slaves.":   Rig, quoting the beloved Wikipedia.

Gee, Greg, how many barnacles are on that sunken ship of yours?   Can't possibly be as many as you yourself are festooned with. Your postings must be the all-time worst graveyard for ships.

As as I've said, all you'd have to do to avoid further embarrassment is actually to think before hitting "send". Seems a reasonable request.

As I've also noted elsewhere,, you must be the only Mudcatter who's never made a mistake.   I can't imagine any other reason why you've never admitted an error.   Couldn't possibly be a tender ego.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 20 May 10 - 08:50 AM

I HAVE A PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA

   Amherst Times ^ | 15 April 2006 | RICHARD D. LAMM

   Posted on 05/10/2006 3:50:05 PM PDT by neverdem

   Richard D. Lamm was a Democrat who served as governor of Colorado for twelve years from 1975 to 1987.

   "This is a speech I gave in Washington D.C. It was a 5 minute speech, and I am amazed and gratified it has received so much coverage."


I HAVE A SECRET PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA. IF YOU BELIEVE, AS MANY DO, THAT AMERICA IS TOO SMUG, TOO WHITE BREAD, TOO SELF-SATISFIED, TOO RICH, LETS DESTROY AMERICA. IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO DO. HISTORY SHOWS THAT NATIONS ARE MORE FRAGILE THAN THEIR CITIZENS THINK. NO NATION IN HISTORY HAS SURVIVED THE RAVAGES OF TIME. ARNOLD TOYNBEE OBSERVED THAT ALL GREAT CIVILIZATIONS RISE AND THEY ALL FALL, AND THAT "AN AUTOPSY OF HISTORY WOULD SHOW THAT ALL GREAT NATIONS COMMIT SUICIDE." HERE IS MY PLAN:

I. WE MUST FIRST MAKE AMERICA A BILINGUAL-BICULTURAL COUNTRY. HISTORY SHOWS, IN MY OPINION, THAT NO NATION CAN SURVIVE THE TENSION, CONFLICT, AND ANTAGONISM OF TWO COMPETING LANGUAGES AND CULTURES. IT IS A BLESSING FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO BE BILINGUAL; IT IS A CURSE FOR A SOCIETY TO BE BILINGUAL. ONE SCHOLAR, SEYMOUR MARTIN LIPSET, PUT IT THIS WAY:

THE HISTORIES OF BILINGUAL AND BICULTURAL SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT ASSIMILATE ARE HISTORIES OF TURMOIL, TENSION, AND TRAGEDY. CANADA, BELGIUM, MALAYSIA, LEBANON-ALL FACE CRISES OF NATIONAL EXISTENCE IN WHICH MINORITIES PRESS FOR AUTONOMY, IF NOT INDEPENDENCE. PAKISTAN AND CYPRUS HAVE DIVIDED. NIGERIA SUPPRESSED AN ETHNIC REBELLION. FRANCE FACES DIFFICULTIES WITH ITS BASQUES, BRETONS, AND CORSICANS.

II. I WOULD THEN INVENT "MULTICULTURALISM" AND ENCOURAGE IMMIGRANTS TO MAINTAIN THEIR OWN CULTURE. I WOULD MAKE IT AN ARTICLE OF BELIEF THAT ALL CULTURES ARE EQUAL: THAT THERE ARE NO CULTURAL DIFFERENCES THAT ARE IMPORTANT. I WOULD DECLARE IT AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT THE BLACK AND HISPANIC DROPOUT RATE IS ONLY DUE TO PREJUDICE AND DISCRIMINATION BY THE MAJORITY. EVERY OTHER EXPLANATION IS OUT-OF-BOUNDS.

III. WE CAN MAKE THE UNITED STATES A "HISPANIC QUEBEC" WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT. THE KEY IS TO CELEBRATE DIVERSITY RATHER THAN UNITY. AS BENJAMIN SCHWARZ SAID IN THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY RECENTLY:

...THE APPARENT SUCCESS OF OUR OWN MULTIETHNIC AND MULTICULTURAL EXPERIMENT MIGHT HAVE BEEN ACHIEVED NOT BY TOLERANCE BUT BY HEGEMONY. WITHOUT THE DOMINANCE THAT ONCE DICTATED ETHNOCENTRICALLY, AND WHAT IT MEANT TO BE AN AMERICAN, WE ARE LEFT WITH ONLY TOLERANCE AND PLURALISM TO HOLD US TOGETHER.

I WOULD ENCOURAGE ALL IMMIGRANTS TO KEEP THEIR OWN LANGUAGE AND CULTURE. I WOULD REPLACE THE MELTING POT METAPHOR WITH A SALAD BOWL METAPHOR. IT IS IMPORTANT TO INSURE THAT WE HAVE VARIOUS CULTURAL SUB-GROUPS LIVING IN AMERICA REINFORCING THEIR DIFFERENCES RATHER THAN AMERICANS, EMPHASIZING THEIR SIMILARITIES.

IV. HAVING DONE ALL THIS, I WOULD MAKE OUR FASTEST GROWING DEMOGRAPHIC GROUP THE LEAST EDUCATED - I WOULD ADD A SECOND UNDERCLASS, UNASSIMILATED, UNDEREDUCATED, AND ANTAGONISTIC TO OUR POPULATION. I WOULD HAVE THIS SECOND UNDERCLASS HAVE A 50% DROP OUT RATE FROM SCHOOL.

V. I WOULD THEN GET THE BIG FOUNDATIONS AND BIG BUSINESS TO GIVE THESE EFFORTS LOTS OF MONEY. I WOULD INVEST IN ETHNIC IDENTITY, AND I WOULD ESTABLISH THE CULT OF VICTIMOLOGY. I WOULD GET ALL MINORITIES TO THINK THEIR LACK OF SUCCESS WAS ALL THE FAULT OF THE MAJORITY - I WOULD START A GRIEVANCE INDUSTRY BLAMING ALL MINORITY FAILURE ON THE MAJORITY POPULATION.

VI. I WOULD ESTABLISH DUAL CITIZENSHIP AND PROMOTE DIVIDED LOYALTIES. I WOULD "CELEBRATE DIVERSITY." "DIVERSITY" IS A WONDERFULLY SEDUCTIVE WORD. IT STRESSES DIFFERENCES RATHER THAN COMMONALITIES. DIVERSE PEOPLE WORLDWIDE ARE MOSTLY ENGAGED IN HATING EACH OTHER-THAT IS, WHEN THEY ARE NOT KILLING EACH OTHER. A DIVERSE," PEACEFUL, OR STABLE SOCIETY IS AGAINST MOST HISTORICAL PRECEDENT. PEOPLE UNDERVALUE THE UNITY IT TAKES TO KEEP A NATION TOGETHER, AND WE CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS MYOPIA. LOOK AT THE ANCIENT GREEKS. DORF'S WORLD HISTORY TELLS US:

THE GREEKS BELIEVED THAT THEY BELONGED TO THE SAME RACE; THEY POSSESSED A COMMON LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE; AND THEY WORSHIPED THE SAME GODS. ALL GREECE TOOK PART IN THE OLYMPIC GAMES IN HONOR OF ZEUS AND ALL GREEKS VENERATED THE SHRINE OF APOLLO AT DELPHI. A COMMON ENEMY PERSIA THREATENED THEIR LIBERTY. YET, ALL OF THESE BONDS TOGETHER WERE NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO OVERCOME TWO FACTORS . . . (LOCAL PATRIOTISM AND GEOGRAPHICAL CONDITIONS THAT NURTURED POLITICAL DIVISIONS . . .) IF WE CAN PUT THE EMPHASIS ON THE "PLURIBUS," INSTEAD OF THE "UNUM," WE CAN BALKANIZE AMERICA AS SURELY AS KOSOVO.

VII. THEN I WOULD PLACE ALL THESE SUBJECTS OFF LIMITS - MAKE IT TABOO TO TALK ABOUT. I WOULD FIND A WORD SIMILAR TO "HERETIC" IN THE 16TH CENTURY - THAT STOPPED DISCUSSION AND PARALYZED THINKING. WORDS LIKE "RACIST", "XENOPHOBE" THAT HALTS ARGUMENT AND CONVERSATION.

HAVING MADE AMERICA A BILINGUAL-BICULTURAL COUNTRY, HAVING ESTABLISHED MULTICULTURALISM, HAVING THE LARGE FOUNDATIONS FUND THE DOCTRINE OF "VICTIMOLOGY", I WOULD NEXT MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO ENFORCE OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS. I WOULD DEVELOP A MANTRA - "THAT BECAUSE IMMIGRATION HAS BEEN GOOD FOR AMERICA, IT MUST ALWAYS BE GOOD." I WOULD MAKE EVERY INDIVIDUAL IMMIGRANT SYMPATRIC AND IGNORE THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT.

VIII. LASTLY, I WOULD CENSOR VICTOR DAVIS HANSON'S BOOK MEXIFORNIA — THIS BOOK IS DANGEROUS — IT EXPOSES MY PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA. SO PLEASE, PLEASE — IF YOU FEEL THAT AMERICA DESERVES TO BE DESTROYED — PLEASE, PLEASE — DON'T BUY THIS BOOK! THIS GUY IS ON TO MY PLAN.

"THE SMART WAY TO KEEP PEOPLE PASSIVE AND OBEDIENT IS TO STRICTLY LIMIT THE SPECTRUM OF ACCEPTABLE OPINION, BUT ALLOW VERY LIVELY DEBATE WITHIN THAT SPECTRUM." — NOAM CHOMSKY, AMERICAN LINGUIST AND US MEDIA AND FOREIGN POLICY CRITIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 10 - 05:07 PM

Heck, Rigs... Trying to teach a mindset is almost impossible... Just give the kids the facts and let 'um figure the rest out...

As for ethnic studies??? Until we make a concerted effort to tell the truth then think of ethnic studies as a gap filler... The more we understand the roles that folks, other than whites, have played in our history the greater perspective we have on how best to deal with the many issues that confront us...

Einstien said that a problem cannot be solved with the same consciousness that created it... There's alot to that...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 May 10 - 04:02 PM

"The moral is simple: you don't cure (what I consider) the virus of a politicized classroom by politicizing it in a different direction,..."

             He's right, you don't. And that is what the Arizona law says it is trying not to do.

             The whole thing seems to suggest that trying to teach ethnic studies is polarizing in and of itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 May 10 - 02:14 PM

Back to Arizona... Stanley Fish in the NY Times has an interesting perspective... I generally have little sympathy for his views, but I'll give him "interesting", at least, on this one:

--

The loud debate over the recently passed Arizona House Bill 2281, which bans from the public schools ethnic studies courses that promote race consciousness, is a clash between two bad paradigms.

The first paradigm is embedded in and configures the bill's targeted program, the Mexican American Studies Department of the Tucson Unified School District, which, its Web site tells us, adheres to the Social Justice Education Project model. That model includes "a counter-hegemonic curriculum" and "a pedagogy based on the theories of Paulo Freire." Freire, a Brazilian educator, is the author of the widely influential book "Pedagogy of the Oppressed."
...
To say that this view of education is political is to understate the point, although that descriptive will not be heard by its adherents as a criticism. The Social Justice Education Project means what its title says: students are to be brought to see what the prevailing orthodoxy labors to occlude so that they can join the effort to topple it. To this end the Department of Mexican American Studies (I quote again from its Web site) pledges to "work toward the invoking of a critical consciousness within each and every student" and "promote and advocate for social and educational transformation."
...
This is one case, however, where the remedy is worse than the disease, or rather is a form of it. Rather than removing politics from the classroom, House Bill 2281 mandates the politics of its authors, who, in the bill's declaration of policy, set themselves up as educational philosophers and public moralists, and even, given the magisterial tone, as gods: "The Legislature finds and declares that public school pupils should be taught to treat and value each other as individuals and not be taught to resent or hate other races or other classes of people." The declaration tendentiously, and without support either of argument or evidence, affirms a relationship between critically questioning the ideology of individual rights — and make no mistake, it is an ideology — and the production of racism and hatred.
...
The moral is simple: you don't cure (what I consider) the virus of a politicized classroom by politicizing it in a different direction, even if that direction corresponds to the notions of civic virtue that animate much of our national rhetoric. The political scientist James Bernard Murphy has been arguing for years that teaching civic virtue is not an appropriate academic activity, both because schools are not equipped to do it and because the effort undermines the true function of education — "enthusiasm for the pursuit of knowledge" — and even corrupts it. Teaching students either to love or criticize their nation, Murphy wrote in The Times in 2002, "has all too often prompted textbook authors and teachers to falsify, distort and sanitize history and social studies."

---

~ Becky in Long Beach (this week)

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 May 10 - 11:48 AM

We could agree on that, but the reality that those folks faced was from a different point of view. That would be hard to explain to young children, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 10 - 07:39 AM

Well, Rigs.... Yeah, like I said, ya' gotta know history but you don't have to solve yer current problems by trying to put yerself in an 1800's mindset to do so... The 1800s mindset was purdy messed up on a lot of levels...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 10 - 07:31 AM

After listening to an NPR program on the radio yesterday, it has become obvious that the only way to get to the bottom of this ethnic studies issue is for the public schools to actively engage in the task of debunking the myth of Aztlan.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 May 10 - 10:27 AM

1. Consider, oh Simple Seeker, the statement by Rig, written in plain English:
George Washington freed his slaves, but Thomas Jefferson did not free his slaves.

[Emphasis mine, for your convenience.

2.And consider, oh Omniscient One, your statement:
...the overwhelming majority [of slaves] were sold at auction after his death--as Rig and I have said.

Which I never took issue with or contradicted.

3. Pray tell me, oh Illustrious and Indefatigable Seeker of Truth, have you read any recent Jefferson scholarship published in the 12 years since Ellis' book?

4. [ Who's embarrassed now? ]

5. And finally: Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 May 10 - 10:12 AM

That's a good point, Bobert. The reverse is true as well. It's hard to teach history without having students applying today's standards to yesterday's situations. Particularly with very young children.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 10 - 07:48 AM

Those who don't know history tend to repeat it... (Voltaire)...

It isn't about Thomas Jefferson's ownership of slaves... It's about our nation's courage to allow the evolution of mankind in a more humane and contemporay manner...

Those who wnat to define today's problems/issues by going back a couple hundred years and trying to use early 1800's realities to 2010 are missing the entire point... This isn't the early 1800's...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 May 10 - 12:55 AM

What??..Not again?? You mean they're not letting people learn about American history??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 May 10 - 09:11 PM

Gee, Greg, it seems like that ship of yours is having real problems. You might not want to tie yourself quite so tightly to the mast--and you must be a bit waterlogged by now, considering all the other ships you've gone down with.

Nobody ever said Jefferson freed no slaves.   But the overwhelming majority were sold at auction after his death--as Rig and I have said.

Joseph Ellis, American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson:

p 289:

"Although his fear of living too long proved justified, his providential death on July 4, 1826, spared him the ultimate tragedy of watching all his worldly possessions, including '130 valuable negroes' sold to the highest bidders."

As they say, facts are stubborn things.

But just imagine, all you'd have to do is think before hitting "send" and you'd avoid a lot of absurd embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 17 May 10 - 05:13 PM

Well, Texas will be one of the last states to fall into line... I mean, there was a time when even stuff like recyclin' was considered some commie plot... Now, I'd bet that they even recycle in Texas... Someone has to begin and others will follow...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 May 10 - 09:58 AM

And it won't as long as the text books have to pass muster in Texas.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 10 - 08:16 PM

Don't make no difference... Ths list of things that have occured in our American history should be taught the way they occured...

I don't mean to be jumpin' on anyone in particular here... I know how some folks try to hyjack threads and others think that they gotta defend their turf and, and...

Just tell the children the truth... There's a lot of it that ain't being told...

b~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 10 - 05:22 PM

P.S.-

Since virtually all secondary school teachers (and a goodly percentage of primary school teachers) won't accept Blog-O-Pedia as a reference for research papers and the like, I don't see why my standards should be any lower.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 10 - 04:47 PM

Ain't arguing over nothin', Bobert- I just wanted to correct the mis-statements that 1. Jefferson never freed any of his slaves and 2. that he unilaterally couldn't free any slaves because they were "were encumbered by notes and mortgages."

Then, of course, the All-Knowing Simple Seeker had to put his oar in, as usual, & it went down-hill from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 10 - 02:28 PM

That really wasn't the argument, Bobert. The discussion was hi-jacked. What we started out to determine was how would this material be presented to children in such a way as to allow them to see the entire complex narrative.

                  The way it is now, you have a black side and a white side--at least you had a black side and a white side--now, do to the realities of sucking up to big business, you have multiple sides and the situation is even more confusing.

                  What you are describing above seems to be one piece of it all. If you want to talk about Affirmative Action, for instance, it seems to me you would have to consider the people who have been damaged by Affirmative Action.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 10 - 02:09 PM

Ya' all arguing over stupid stuff... Tom Jefferson was one of thousands of slave owners... That is the story here... The entire slave trade from Africa to the docks of Charleston, S.C. or Alexandria, Va. is the story here... The fact that families were broken apart and people kidnapped and sold is the story here... The fact that the South was willing to call it quits to protect these practices in the story here... Jim Crow is the story here... The Greensboro Massacure is the story here... The Civil Rights movement is the story here... The fact that descendents of slaves are still housing in little reservations (housing projects) within oor country is the stroy here... Affirmative Action is the story here... I mean, this is waht ecuated people should know about...

Arguing over one particualr slave owner as if winning that angels-on-the-end-of-a-pin is the real story is stupid and diversionary...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 10 - 01:21 PM

You're ... not quite so good at actually providing evidence the source is worthless.

Oh Great and Omniscient Simple Seeker After Truth:

1. See sources provided to Rig, above.

2. Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 10 - 01:17 PM

The facts have been presented, Greg.

No facts, Rig- you cut and pasted some crap from a blog. No point my correcting Blog-O-Pedia, 'cause any asshole can come along after me and post any sort of outrageous shit they want- life's too short to get into a pissing contest with an anonymous skunk (Or with the the Simple Seeker After Hubris).

Tell ya what: for one example of many pick up a copy of Annette Gordon-Reed's The Hemingses of Monticello 2008 - no, no, don't read the book! - & see the Bibliography pages 737 thru 753 for some factual works. Try reading a few.

And no, I'm not going to do your homework for you- crib off someone else's paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 May 10 - 11:11 AM

Hell has frozen over.   I applaud you, Riginslinger (though admittedly only for that last post). Well put.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 May 10 - 11:09 AM

Sorry, Greg, as has happened before, you are the one who oversimplifies, with yet another ex cathedra statement.

Jefferson did in fact have huge debts at his death, and many of his slaves were sold as a result.

Would you like an exact citation--or is this yet another sinking ship to whose mast you have lashed yourself?

You're great at ridiculing sources you don't like;   not quite so good at actually providing evidence the source is worthless.   All you have to do is consider Wikipedia just one source and see if there is confirmation elsewhere.   Doesn't seem like an unreasonable request--if you are capable of doing a modicum of research.    But it seems it might be a problem for you.

The best things in life don't change, they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 May 10 - 11:05 AM

"Would you like me to post a bibliography of factual works on TJ?"


                The facts have been presented, Greg. If you disagree with them go into Wikipedia and amend them. The historians who put them there might not agree, and if not, they will change them back. The point has been sufficiently made, however, that things like that are complicated, and cannot be presented to young children with a "see Dick run," reading ablitiy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 16 May 10 - 10:13 AM

My exact sentiments, GUEST999...

Kids *can* handle the truth... Okay, they might nor internalize information emotionally until they have further developed emotionally but once that occurs it's better for them as citizens of the world to, at the very least, have a knowledge base that is grounded in factual realities rather that a bunch of mythology that has been sanitized so that the so-called "adults" can sleep better at night...

And the problem gets worse becuase these adults that have been spoonfed mythology grow up to be, ahhhhh, voters!!! And that converts to garbage in - garbage out... The US Congress is a case in point...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 May 10 - 09:56 AM

And as usual, Rig, Blog-O-Pedia is wrong - in both the material it presents and in the material it leaves out.

Would you like me to post a bibliography of factual works on TJ?

Ow do you want to persist in your fantasy?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 10 - 06:33 PM

This is part of what Wikipedia says about Thomas Jefferson and slaves:


    "Jefferson was an outspoken abolitionist, but he owned many slaves over his lifetime. Although these facts seem baffling, biographers point out that Jefferson was deeply in debt and had encumbered his slaves by notes and mortgages; he could not free them until he was free of debt, which never happened...

    "The downturn in land prices after 1819 pushed Jefferson further into debt. Jefferson finally emancipated his five most trusted slaves (two, his alleged mixed-race sons) and petitioned the legislature to allow them to stay in Virginia. After his death, his family sold the remainder of the slaves by auction on the lawn of his estate[94] to settle his high debts."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Donuel
Date: 15 May 10 - 06:08 PM

Civil War?

In NYS it was called the War between the States and in parochial schools it was called the War of Northern Aggresion.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Donuel
Date: 15 May 10 - 05:57 PM

Arizona law targeting ethnic studies?!, is simply not true.


If you are studying white people there is no ban whatsoever.
On the other hand if a public school in Arizona devotes any time to Black history month, there will be hearings, investigations, determinations and retribution.

All in all it is very white of the lawmakers of Arizona to accomodate the white power interest groups in Arizona with such gusto.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 May 10 - 05:50 PM

...but Thomas Jefferson did not free his slaves

As long as we're discussing not teaching lies, Thomas Jefferson DID free some of his many slaves during his lifetime and several more by will.

And as long as we're talking about not teaching WASP mythology and not teaching coursees favoring one group, let's drop "The Lost Cause" mythology, the "Civil War Was Fought For States' Rights" idiocy & the rest of the white supremecist lies about the Civil War still in the curriculum in many places- likely including Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 10 - 05:22 PM

Nope. Wrong guess, Rig

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 10 - 04:30 PM

"How do you spell Jerk?"


             E-M-A-N-U-E-L

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 May 10 - 11:45 AM

The reason history repeats itself is that historians repeat each other. I don`t know to whom that quote should be attributed, but he or she hit the nail squarely and fairly. I`d like to see the genocide practised on Native North Americans receive more than a footnote in high school texts. (That with reference to the Beotucks in Newfoundland, also.) Way too much history is ``White``washed`. I didn`t buy it as a student, and I didn`t buy it as a teacher. Equally, I would like to see Black history replete with instances of the genocide practised by Black tribal groups on each other. I would like to see the myth of scalping as being a European introduction when in fact Native peoples had been doing it prior to the arrival of Europeans. Basically, I`m tired of reading bullshit history. However, when I suggested that perhaps the willing help of Ukrainians and Poles to kill Jews during WW II should be noted, I was met by a solid wall of silence by teachers and government people because the province I taught in has a large Ukrainian and Polish population. Equally, when I suggested that Gaza was and is a disgrace perpetrated by Israel and that the Arabs did little to alleviate the situation I was again met again by a wall of silence.

Meanwhile, kids watch thousands of simulated killings on TV every year and the warm shit keeps piling.

I wish the students and teachers of Arizona lotsa luck. The corporate view of education is a reality. Kids in school have become about money and bottom lines.

The most (IMO) important elections that occur are those to form school boards. Guess what. In many school districts people have to be begged to run. And people have to be begged to vote.

We have met the enemy, and he is us.

Have a nice day all.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 10 - 11:34 AM

"We could teach that Justice Stevens was the last WASP on the Supreme Court," Rig

Don't raise an alarm. Justices get old and eventually die. More WASPs will be appointed in time.

How do you spell Jerk?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 May 10 - 09:01 AM

You might be right, Bobert. I wouldn't think it would be a good idea to tell lies:

                   But take this one, for instance. You could tell a class of 8 year olds that sometime after the Revolutionary War George Washington freed his slaves, but Thomas Jefferson did not free his slaves. The reality of the situation was, Jefferson's estate was in a state of receivership, and slaves were property, and they were part of the collateral of the estate, so Jefferson couldn't free them even if he wanted to.

                   There are a number of adults who think Jefferson was a bad guy for not freeing his slaves today. And that brings you into the realm of trying to explain to 8 year olds about different social values and perceptions of the 18th century.

                            It gets complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 15 May 10 - 07:58 AM

What, Rigs??? Kids not understanding the social and human aspects of human suffering as a result of slavery at 8 years old??? Okay, maybe they won't connect as much as an older kid but if we are unwilling to tell the truth to the 8 year old then what age??? And then that kid is going to ask themselves, "Why didn't they tell us that before??? Waht else that they have told us is a lie???" Education isn't supposed to be ablut implanting mythology into people heads... WQe have far too much mythology in people's heads as it is...

Tell tthe children the truth!!! Their brainwashed parents might not be able to handle it but kids can...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:37 PM

Bobert, I suspect teaching history is something you know a lot more about than I do. I'm not sure about not teaching WASP Mythology, at least to some exent, though it would depend on the age group. I would be careful about putting material into curriculum that students don't have the background to grasp--expecting 8 year olds to understand the "Dred Scott" decision, for instance, and all of the ramifications of that.

            We could teach that Justice Stevens was the last WASP on the Supreme Court, and see how children react to that.

            In the end, I think educators would be more successful if they considered context as well as content. There are probably a number of Robin Hoods throughout history in a large number of cultures, but not to teach Robin Hood because he is a WASP tradition--I know he preceded the reformation--seems like a mistake to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:05 PM

Why not teach American History rather than American WASP Mythology???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:02 PM

I was looking for the "bearded bruce" comment about teaching Black History, but I can't find it now.

          I think anyone who even casually thought about it would agree that a black teacher teaching Black History would find it more rewarding and maybe a little more challenging if he/she had students from other-than-black backgrounds it the classroom. I would think the students would find a course of this nature very rewarding, especially if they had a different background. The teacher would be producing a much larger footprint than he/she would if he/she were teaching only to students of the same ethnic background--my opinion.

          Further, I would think that this is the kind of education that school boards and superintendents would want to promote. A similar cultural enrichment could be found in the teaching of Chicano History and Native American history.

          I'm hopeful that this is the kind of program that "Ethnic Studies" could develop into.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:25 PM

She was only a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 10 - 08:09 PM

"Every eye is glued onto that car. It looks very funny with all those eyes glued on it."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 10 - 08:09 PM

Until we had a thread on it, I thought it was "feedlebomb." I guess it's actually "Beadlebaum."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bill D
Date: 14 May 10 - 07:56 PM

LOLOL.... didn't know anyone still remembered Beetlebomb...

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 10 - 07:52 PM

AND, the winner is


























Beetlebomb.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 07:46 PM

re "classes in, say, Black history are designed for a specific group,"

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 07:16 PM

Art,

So whites should not learn Black History?????

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:58 PM

The class doesn't promote those things, some instructors do, and those students who do not fit into the group know better than to venture in there.

                Again, this is a small minority of instructors. Those people can either change their agenda--or at least not advocate in a public classroom--of find something else to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:48 PM

Dave, the problem, IMHO, is that if any of those elements are present, the class is prohibited. In other words, if a class doesn't advocate overthrow of the government, doesn't promote resentment toward others, doesn't advocate racial solidarity but is designed primarily for students from a specific ethnic group, than it is verboten. I don't think anyone would deny that classes in, say, Black history are designed for a specific group, although they are not (and have not been in Arizona) officially restricted to that group.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:29 PM

A quote from the article:

The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which promote the overthrow of the United States government, promote resentment toward a race or class of people, or are tailored for pupils from a particular racial group.

Let's break that down:

The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which promote the overthrow of the United States government . . .

What's wrong with that?

The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which * * * promote resentment toward a race or class of people . . .

Where's the problem with that?

The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which * * * are tailored for pupils from a particular racial group.

If that means the classes are intended (or applied) for ONLY the particular group, as seems to be inferred, what's the trouble with prohibiting that, especially but not only if the other two clauses are present?

Seems to me that prohibiting those three things (or any of those three things separately) is salutary.

****

And someone (I forget who, and can't find it right now) said that many teachers in ethnic studies state they don't do those things. FINE! In that case the law doesn't apply to them and their classes.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:04 PM

Arizona is mostly known for its holes in the ground. Meteor Crater, Grand Canyon, Window Rock.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:00 PM

Doug's a resident of Arizona- "The Shithole State" isn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 06:00 PM

Greg F. must be Curly!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 May 10 - 05:56 PM

Hey, Spaw, we've only got two of the Three Stooges ranting on this thread- Where's Douggie?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 10 - 05:43 PM

This has turned into a reactionary love fest. It's so cute.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:33 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHnzn2KT7JE

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 10 - 04:21 PM

Well I love humanity, It's people I can't stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 May 10 - 03:31 PM

Well, I don`t like anybody very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:51 PM

"They (liberals) get notions in their heads that seemed to make sense 30 years ago, and they refuse to face the reality of today." ~ Rigs

30 years? Actually, most of the people here on Mudcat think they are still living in 1963 with Martin Luther King saying "I Have a Dream."

Fact is, if you really judge all people by the content of their character, many Blacks and Mexican also fail to "measure up", not just White people as the Liberal orthodoxy would have you believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:34 PM

sorry.

Date: 14 May 10 - 12:57 PM
should be after
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:38 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:33 PM

Art,

My post was in reply to

From: Amos - PM
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:06 PM


HIS reply to my

Date: 14 May 10 - 01:38 PM
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:38 PM

on Amos's
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:49 AM

On MY
Date: 14 May 10 - 12:57 PM
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:22 PM


so the topic of the Obama Adminisrtrations malfeasance is a side issue that we have been pushing back and forth.



"malfeasance: wrongdoing or misconduct especially by a public official"

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:21 PM

Is Obama an anagram for Brewer? Somehow I thought we were talking about a law in Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:19 PM

Amos,

"I see something meriting criticism "

And when will you bother to look?



There are none so blind as those who will not see.


You have looked towards Obama through painted-over glasses, and see only the reflection of your own eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 10 - 02:06 PM

Bruce:

You continue to obdurately ignore the differences. My words stand, and what you think I SHOULD have said has no bearing on my opinion. Furthermore, I will criticize when I see something meriting criticism and feel like providing criticism, noit because you are keeping a cross-eyed scorecard.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:54 PM

Art,

"I am liberal. I am open-handed, open-minded and tolerant of other opinions. I favor reforms that result in individual freedom. I also believe that gun ownership isn't inherently evil, that immigration should be tightly controlled and that people in this country should speak English. I believe in definitions according to Webster rather than Glen Beck."

No problem with any of that, but I might have said "I believe in definitions according to Webster rather than by the Obama administration."

Please note that I did post the entire law ( clickie, at least) to allow each of us to read it and make up our own minds. Far more here have told me what to believe than I have told to go read the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:43 PM

BB, I think you left out the part about "ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP".

I am liberal. I am open-handed, open-minded and tolerant of other opinions. I favor reforms that result in individual freedom. I also believe that gun ownership isn't inherently evil, that immigration should be tightly controlled and that people in this country should speak English. I believe in definitions according to Webster rather than Glen Beck.

I also believe in facts, but I really haven't seen many here. Since this law doesn't go into effect until July, at which time the school year will be over, perhaps we should all put this on hold until it can be seen how, or if, it is going to be enforced.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:38 PM

Amos,

"The law is badly worded, IMHO, and is not actually going to improve things."

And the Healthcare Bill???? MOST of the country thought it was badly worded and is not actually going to improve things, but I didn't see you allowing THAT as a reason to oppose it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:34 PM

Spaw,

"and rewritten when it should be to change with the times.   That's a subject for discussion "

I have no problem with any LAWFULL attempt to change the government- BY THE MEANS PROVIDED in the Constitution.

A pity more here, and in this administration, do not understand that possibility, and insist on bypassing those means. Or perhaps it is just that they know they do NOT have the required support to do it legally.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:19 PM

I think it goes beyon Liberalism, pdq. They get notions in their heads that seemed to make sense 30 years ago, and they refuse to face the reality of today.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:15 PM

They don't need facts, they have Liberalism. It's their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:12 PM

There are things that people choose to believe, and there are facts. A number of posters on this thread just don't want to muddle their heads with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:06 PM

And the POS law gives the power to decide that a teacher is talking of overthow simply because some jackass says so.

Were I teaching I would suggset that we are possibly in need of another revolution. So would many of our "founding fathers" who never expected the Constitution to be a document for the ages and that it would maended when it could be and rewritten when it should be to change with the times.   That's a subject for discussion and would help open the minds of those who see history as a bore. Is it sedition?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 12:57 PM

Amos,

"Bush's administration, compared to Obama's, is like comparing the Bloods and the Crips to UCSD.
"


I think rather that it should be:

Bush's administration, compared to Obama's, is like comparing the Bloods or the Crips to the Mafia.


Comment on the FACT that Obama has has 1/4th the press conferences that Bush did in his first year? So much for transparency.

I have yet to see you criticise Obama for those actions that you criticised Bush for, that Obama has continued or increased.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 12:50 PM

Mousethief and Bobert,

NO. THIS law is the one under discussion.

Arizona is not Texas.

IF the classes are open to ALL students, as are the ones YOU claim are inaccurate, then they are legal- REGARDLESS of the viewpoint ( unless they PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE, OR ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
INDIVIDUALS.)

NOT at all what you have stated. The "law" as YOU have stated is objectionable-BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE ARIZONA LAW STATES.

You don't get to change reality to make it what you want to object to.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 10 - 12:47 PM

Bruce:

Cool down, pal. I was addressing the great PDQ, who said "Having teachers and guest speakers advocate civil disobedience against the US government and/or hatred of another race is also wrong and will soon be illegal, at least in the state of Arizona.".

A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 10 - 12:32 PM

Amos,

"1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
INDIVIDUALS."
"

Note the law restricts based on "overthrow".

"Amos: "Furthermore, the noble tradition of CIVIL disobedience SHOULD be taught and not mashed into the same category as sedition. You trteads a very slippery slope when you try and make indpendent speech into seditious speech. Just sayin'. Civil disobedience does not advocate overthrow. Just change."

So, you have stated that YOU support the intent of the law. The law DOES NOT put civil disobedience into the same class as sedition, regardless of your claims. It SPECIFIES "OVERTHROW".

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:55 AM

Classes are often segregated by language skills, and individual who was even marginally observant could connect the dots.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:45 AM

Well, Desert Dancer has had kids in the Tucson school system, which is the one being specifically targeted in this law. I think I'd take her word on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:45 AM

I suspect they were "defacto segregated." That might still go on, but it won't go on unnoticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:40 AM

Well Rig, if there was, there are plenty of laws already to deal with the situation. Writing and enacting this new law is akin to attacking a fly with an H-Bomb.   

The new law is a POS........


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:28 AM

There was, there isn't now.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:22 AM

THERE IS NO RESTRICTED ENROLLMENT IN THE CLASSES!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:49 AM

Your overheated rhetoric actually reduces your effectiveness, BB. Bush's administration, compared to Obama's, is like comparing the Bloods and the Crips to UCSD.

The law is badly worded, IMHO, and is not actually going to improve things.

Furthermore, the noble tradition of CIVIL disobedience SHOULD be taught and not mashed into the same category as sedition. You trteads a very slippery slope when you try and make indpendent speech into seditious speech. Just sayin'. Civil disobedience does not advocate overthrow. Just change.




A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:35 AM

These are clips from Hispanic leaders, and this is the material the teachers teach (some teachers--most Hispanic teachers are more responsible--but it only takes a few).



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHnzn2KT7JE

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:22 AM

From what I can tell from various sources, the K-12 school population in Tucson is:

       57% Mexican
       29% White
         7% Black
         7% "other"

Having classes that are restricted in enrollment to one race is wrong. With this new law, as of 31 DEC 2010, it will be illegal in one state, Arizona.

Having teachers and guest speakers advocate civil disobedience against the US government and/or hatred of another race is also wrong and will soon be illegal, at least in the state of Arizona.

It seems like the Progressives should view this as a victory, but that appears not to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:46 AM

Rig, is that your own personal knowledge of the Arizina situation, information from elsewhere (please provide cite/site), or your extrapolation from your brief experience subbing in California schools lo these many years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:43 AM

And again, let me reiterate.........

While it could be true the teachers were "inciting to riot" it might also be that they were doing the job as it should be done.

"Education is the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent"......John Maynard Keynes

Education in this country has reached new nadirs of mediocrity and I sometimes wonder if a great teacher can be recognized as such and might be looked at as a radical.

Aw screw it........Why am I bothering with this thread? This one requires 3d action and on that I am doing what I can.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:31 AM

I echo Bobert: Oh? Is that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 10 - 08:22 AM

Oh??? Is that right???

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 08:12 AM

The problem they had was, there was a certain number of Hispanic teachers who thought it was their job to go to work each day and try to incite a riot.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 10 - 07:53 AM

Or the law that requires creationism to be taught in certain schools???

Face it, curriculum ain't what it used to be and when it used to be it was still mythology...

BTW, did George Washington really cut down that cherry tree???

I mean, it's bad enough to glorify Confederate generals )Monument Ave. in Richmond) but do we still have to glorify America's stupidist war... I mean, the Civil (which it wasn't) War makes Vietnam look well thought out???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:48 AM

No, Bobert. The LAW wants ALL types of history taught to ALL students

Is that the same LAW that chooses textbooks in Texas? You know, the ones that are leaving out some of the history because it doesn't support their pet theories and hatreds?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 13 May 10 - 11:40 PM

If Superintendent Tom Horne and the idiots in the big house in Phoenix want to pass meaningless laws like this, I guess it's better than passing hurtful ones. They'll have to prove that the classes are damaging. They never attended any before they wrote the law... These are classes that reduced minority dropout rates and increased the number of minority students going to college.

Wish they'd get off their asses and figure out the state's budget, instead.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 10 - 09:56 PM

Correction: 'Certified" to teach American History... Qualified??? I donno, seein' as I am a product of "the system"... That's what I am talkin' about... The sytem has come up with it's own story... Problem is that their story is just that... A story... I mean, if you studied Virginia History, the way is was and may still be be taught, you'd think that 1619 was when Aftricans came over to help the colonists??? That is not real history... That is mythology...

Why can't we just tell the truth???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 10 - 09:35 PM

Then, bb, can I assume that you are in favor of the law??? If so, when are the American History books going to be rewritten to reflect our real history??? Yeah, that's what I am talkin' about here... What is taught is not our real history... It is history/mytholgy as seen by white people... It is pure bullshit and sanitized revisionism... I know... One of the things I am qulaified to do and have done is teach Amercan History... It's bullshit... It's like fiction... When are the books to be rewritten by real historians that aren'ty out to make white people look so smart, so much the story and so guiltless??? Yeah, when that happens we have turned the corner... Right now, we are still teaching bullshit...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 May 10 - 09:05 PM

Art has it:   If Section E trumps Section A always, the law is meaningless--except for Brewer's chance to throw red meat to the Right--and thereby assure she wins her primary despite her stepping off the True Path at least once, to actually advocate raising a tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 08:42 PM

"They want mythology and they don't want no-one teaching nuthin' else???"

No, Bobert. The LAW wants ALL types of history taught to ALL students, not a selected version hand crafted for each minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 10 - 08:39 PM

Sho nuff would be nice to get to a point where real American History is taught but that ain't never gonna happen... So until the crap that is passed off as the real story leans more toward history and less toward mythology then we owe it to ourselves to offer classes that teach the roles that non-WASPs have played in our history...

I mean, the right wants it both ways... They want mythology and they don't want no-one teaching nuthin' else???

Hmmmmmmmm???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:50 PM

Typical ad hominim attack.


Oh, I better define it for her:

[Latin, To the person.] A term used in debate to denote an argument made personally against an opponent, instead of against the opponent's argument.



Can't expect her to know anything pertaining to reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:42 PM

Bearded Bruce is once again yanking chains as hard as he can.

No surprise there. Why waste your time arguing with him? You'll never change his mind. He argues just to argue.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:27 PM

I understood Holder was thinking about bringing suit against the immigration law, is he going after this law as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:22 PM

Sorry, Amos, it is MY PERCEPTION that those here complaining about the law have not read it, nor given any thought to it's meaning. They are just repeating the Administration view, thinking that they can defione it as they wish without looking at what it says.

The AG is going to bring suit against it- and admits to a congressional committe he HAS NOT READ THE LAW. THAT is the kind of government YOU claim is better than Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:16 PM

Bruce:

Ya know, man, if you keep sticking ugly thoughts into other peoples' mouths like that, you ain't NEVER gonna have no friends. Especially since you have to twist their words to do it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:14 PM

Read my previous post....The law is crap and will never hold up. Healthcare???? wtf........

I will not debate this one any more as I have seen no argument for this law that will hold up before the courts. The film that tries to obscure the bigotry of it is microns thin. Bruce is sending up clouds of acrid claptrap meaning nothing. And for now it is as the ACLU signs say:

What starts in Arizona
Stays in Arizona

Already stopped one attempt by a racist sheriff here in Ohio.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:55 PM

Art,


Immaterial.

BillD is postulating that the PERCEPTION of those affected by this law should be the controlling factor, and take priority over the actual law, and I was pointing out that the PERCEPTIONS of those affected in a previous case were of no significance to him, and he derided those who had any concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:33 PM

Not that it is in any way relevant to this discussion, but the health care legislation recently passed by a majority of both houses of Congress is not the legislation that President Obama wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:29 PM

"Since it is already perceived as such by many here already, do you not suspect it WILL be viewed that way by various ethnic groups as a way to further control, harass, limit and intimidate them?"

Yet the same logic does NOT apply to the people opposed to the Obama Health Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:26 PM

The school district and the state are not attacking courses, they are attacking radicalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:24 PM

Attacks on native courses taught on the Indian Reserves will be next- thank the Lord that the reservations are under federal jurisdiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:12 PM

As a parenthetical aside, it`s interesting to note that when totalitarian groups get into power they inevitably kill teachers. Anyone needing proof for that statement shouldn`t be posting on political threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:08 PM

The law was constructed to prevent militant teachers from carrying out radical political agendas at the tax payers' expense. That's why it was written for the purpose of supporting ethnic studies programs which are designed to help students learn, and to discourage destructive politics from being broadcast in a public classroom by individuals on public payrolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:06 PM

Gentlemen, I ain`t as smart as either of you guys. I will however say this: If that`s the law as written, it`s a clumsy piece of English. Anyone who says he understands that law as written is, IMO, fulla shit. Maybe that`s what`s so scary about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bill D
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:51 PM

Bruce..I will no longer debate things where all you can do is claim 'double-standard'....unless that is the main point under consideration.

And I have NOT "...stated that the PERCEPTION by conservatives and libertarians is of no significance,..." NOR that Obama's programs should 'be in effect".
You are inventing a context, inventing statements I have not made, then basing an argument on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:31 PM

BillD,

Yet you have stated that the PERCEPTION by conservatives and libertarians is of no significance, and that the programs put forward by the Obama admministration should be in effect regardless.


How would one logically justify woriing only about one groups perceptione, and not another groups?

the word "bigotry" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bill D
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:28 PM

And Bruce...try reading what *I* said: (I'll forgo the caps)

"Whether or not this law is intended to prohibit all ethnic studies and limit what Latino students can participate in AS Latinos, it will certainly be perceived as such BY Latinos."

Since it is already perceived as such by many here already, do you not suspect it WILL be viewed that way by various ethnic groups as a way to further control, harass, limit and intimidate them?

It is either an attempt to do that in a sneaky way, or it is a terribly poorly written bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:28 PM

Thanks, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:13 PM

Art,

The entire first section is as I posted:

"A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE
IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
INDIVIDUALS."


I would think that these are points to support: Do you think ity a good idea to have courses that do ANY of this? ANY course should be designed for ALL the students- NOT for a small group ( except as noted in section E)

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:00 PM

I think that section reads "3. COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE THE HISTORY OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP AND THAT ARE OPEN TO ALL STUDENTS, UNLESS THE COURSE OR CLASS VIOLATES SUBSECTION A." [emphasis added]

So, if a course is "designed for" African-American students, but Anglos are allowed to enroll (even if they don't), it would still be prohibited. I doubt very much that any program in any public school in Arizona specifically bans the enrollment of specific ethnic groups - they certainly didn't when I lived in Arizona - so all courses are "open" by definition and section A must govern. If section E trumps section A under all circumstances, than there is no reason for the law in the first place...other than Brewer positioning herself politically.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:40 PM

Art,

I disagree: "As I read that, section 15-112A3 specifically bans such programs as Black history, Hispanic studies and the like, since those programs are intended for students from those groups "


The law states in section E.
E. THIS SECTION SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED TO RESTRICT OR PROHIBIT:
....
3. COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE THE HISTORY OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP AND THAT ARE OPEN TO ALL STUDENTS, "


So, as long as they are OPEN to all students, they are allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:33 PM

BB, as you put it, try reading:

15-112. Prohibited courses and classes; enforcement
A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE
IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS INDIVIDUALS.

As I read that, section 15-112A3 specifically bans such programs as Black history, Hispanic studies and the like, since those programs are intended for students from those groups and, while not specifically restricted, few if any students from other groups would ever enroll in them. I do note that, further on in the law, classes on the Holocaust are allowed. Surprising, but I guess there aren't many Hispanic Jews in Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:37 PM

Amos,

So you would approve aof a KKK white's only class giving their version of history?


THAT is what you imply.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:34 PM

13 2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.


THis one is a loophole as long as your arm. Studying the European conquest of North America, for example, could easily "promote" resentment toward the US Cavalry, white folks, or men with beards. Ya think? I think it is dicey to presume what a certain set of facts will or will not induce in an individual mind.

Aside from that it is an interesting law.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:34 PM

Geeziz Bruce....Can you not see what a piece of shit law that is? Subsection A says they have the right to kick any and all ass at their whim and Subsection E gives them all the wiggle room they need to act like assholes and yet say otherwise. You can't do XXXXX but when we bust you for XXXXX it is really okay as long as we think so and here is our justification.

And just out of curiosity, can you refine the difference between radical teachers and teachers who challenge a student to think using the knowledge he's given? Or would you prefer just dull history parroted by a mediocre teacher and then parroted back by an equally uncaring student?

"Education is the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent"......John Maynard Keynes

If you can get fiery and motivated teachers, try not to label them as insurgent rabble-rousers. Its a very popular thing to do in this country and hence we have a suck-ass educational system where the problem is not bad teachers but the overwhelming preponderance on fucking MEDIOCRE teachers. The very best get completely fried with the system and dumbass laws like this POS and go find something else to do.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:25 PM

Amos, Try reading:

"A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE
10 IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE
11 FOLLOWING:
12 1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
13 2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
14 3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
15 4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
16 INDIVIDUALS."


Richard,

So you approve of having classes saying that whites are superior and own all the land?? Or "white only" classes?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: MMario
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:23 PM

Well - actually when I went to school there were "minority only" courses in the African-American studies. They claimed it was because the "presence of the majority ethnic group would inhibit expression" of the remainder of the students.

Filipinos, asians, hispanics and native americans were allowed to take the black study courses though....

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:22 PM

Yes Bruce, I've read it. It is designed to oppress the schools and the non-"anglo" students, with a thin veneer of respectability over the top. Read it again. My opinion of Brewer is no higher, and my opinion of the drafter of this piece of bigotry is lower.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:21 PM

Well, if they are not going to constrain the studfy of ethnic groups, what the fuck are they writing a law for?

IF what they want to address is classes which teach ethnic hatred, they should just say so and be done with it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:17 PM

999

Posted at 13 May 10 - 03:08 PM


"E. THIS SECTION SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED TO RESTRICT OR PROHIBIT:
39 1. COURSES OR CLASSES FOR NATIVE AMERICAN PUPILS THAT ARE REQUIRED TO
40 COMPLY WITH FEDERAL LAW.
41 2. THE GROUPING OF PUPILS ACCORDING TO ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE, INCLUDING
42 CAPABILITY IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, THAT MAY RESULT IN A DISPARATE IMPACT BY ETHNICITY.
3. COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE THE HISTORY OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP AND
2 THAT ARE OPEN TO ALL STUDENTS, UNLESS THE COURSE OR CLASS VIOLATES
3 SUBSECTION A.
4 4. COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE THE DISCUSSION OF CONTROVERSIAL
5 ASPECTS OF HISTORY.
6 F. NOTHING IN THIS SECTION SHALL BE CONSTRUED TO RESTRICT OR PROHIBIT
7 THE INSTRUCTION OF THE HOLOCAUST, ANY OTHER INSTANCE OF GENOCIDE, OR THE
8 HISTORICAL OPPRESSION OF A PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE BASED ON ETHNICITY,
9 RACE, OR CLASS."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:15 PM

Perhaps you`d be kind enough to post a link to the LAW you`re talkin` about, BB. Not an article ABOUT the LAW, but the LAW itself. I`d love to see it but really don`t know how to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:13 PM

Spaw,

At the University of Maryland, men are prohibited from taking ( some) Women's Study courses. At least, the one male who attempted to take it was removed by the instructor.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:12 PM

Well, I figure the legislation will be overthrown when a challenge gets to the Arizona Supreme Court, and failing that, the BIG Supremes will rule against any clause that tries to ban the freedom to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:08 PM

Spaw,

READ THE LAW!

READ WHAT THE LAW SAYS!

"The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which promote the overthrow of the United States government, promote resentment toward a race or class of people, or are tailored FOR PUPILS FROM A PARTICULAR RACIAL GROUP. "


Unlike Obama's Healthcare "vote before reading", the law in question CAN be read:

actual law

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:06 PM

Not where I went to school Spaw!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:00 PM

I was just about to make that point, Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 10 - 02:55 PM

Are white students banned from African-American Studies programs? Are Latinos forced to take only Latino programs?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 02:42 PM

More amazing how those who flaunt their civil right's street creds are in suupport of segregated classes- "Lets make sure that the ****ers ( fill in your favorite minority) are given specific instruction that ALL the students don't get"

If I said we should have special classes FOR WHITE STUDENTS, there would be no end of screams here.

The LAW STATES ""or are tailored ***for pupils*** from a particular racial group"

ALL STUDENTS SHOULD GET THOSE COURSES THAT BillD and others are claiming would not be allowed- IN FACT, the would be allowed ONLY IF THEY WERE FOR ALL STUDENTS.

Only bigots would be against that.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 10 - 02:40 PM

What pdq said!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 02:40 PM

Arizona Governor Jan Brewer has courted fresh controversy by signing a bill banning an ethnic studies program, just weeks after approving the state's tough new immigration law.

Brewer approved a bill late Tuesday, promoted by the state's schools boss, Tom Horne, who has said that the program run by the Tucson school district promotes a "destructive ethnic chauvinism."

Tucson school officials have insisted the program only aims to provide students with courses about the role of minorities in historical events such as the Vietnam war or literature courses featuring Latino authors.

The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which promote the overthrow of the United States government, promote resentment toward a race or class of people, or are tailored for pupils from a particular racial group.

The law was approved by Brewer despite condemnation from a panel of United Nations human rights experts released several hours earlier.

In a lengthy statement condemning Arizona's immigration law, the experts said the education bill was at odds with "the right of everyone to have access to his or her own cultural and linguistic heritage."

"Everyone has the right to seek and develop cultural knowledge and to know and understand his or her own culture and that of others through education and information," the UN panel said.

Brewer attracted outrage after approving an immigration law last month which makes it a crime in Arizona to lack proper immigration papers and requires police to determine whether people are in the country illegally.

Civil rights activists say the law will open the door to racial profiling by law enforcement officers. Supporters of the law say the bill expressly forbids police from stopping someone on the basis of their ethnicity.




Seems pretty clear in the above article linked by BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 13 May 10 - 02:28 PM

Amazing how many people have strong opinions about a bill they have not read and do not intend to read.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 02:25 PM

The folks in Arizona need some Vaseline. It`ll make the legislation easier to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 May 10 - 02:23 PM

So, no more Black, AmerInd, etc....this is just INSANE.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bill D
Date: 13 May 10 - 02:19 PM

Whether or not this law is intended to prohibit all ethnic studies and limit what Latino students can participate in AS Latinos, it will certainly be perceived as such BY Latinos.

As much Amos said....I also don't see why they are bothering with such a law, as it most certainly will cause dissention and argument.

And when Arizona suddenly gets a Governor and legislature with Latino names, it will be very interesting to see the backlash.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 02:16 PM

Spaw,


"It surprises me that BB and Ms. Brewer would be against Latino or African American Studies when they themselves were taught Fuckwit-American Studies."

That was what YOU were teaching???

By attacking those posting what you do not like, you concede you have no valid arguement against what they say. Thank you for your affirmatiion that I am correct.





Amos,

"but that does not mean they should not study their divergent and vividly different backgrounds."

EVERYONE should be taught those backgrounds, not just the minority du jour.

"or are tailored ***for pupils*** from a particular racial group" means that there should not be hispanic, or black, or jewish ONLY classes.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 10 - 02:05 PM

Obviously there are many supporting this legislation who themselves were a product of such programs as are our fellow 'Catters who support them. It surprises me that BB and Ms. Brewer would be against Latino or African American Studies when they themselves were taught Fuckwit-American Studies.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 10 - 01:50 PM

I see nothing objectionable about Women's Studies, Chicano Studies, African-American studies, Irish-American studies, Polish-American studies, Russo-American studies, Sino-American studies, or any other focused collections of data around some coherent thread.

It is perfectly true that American citizens must be equal under the law, but that does not mean they should not study their divergent and vividly different backgrounds.

Understanding history does not make one racist or destructive. Those come from failing completely to understand the present.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 12:46 PM

"The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which promote the overthrow of the United States government, promote resentment toward a race or class of people, or are tailored for pupils from a particular racial group. "


So who here wants these classes?? I thought the whole idea of civil rights was to get rid of segregation and "seperate but equal"?????






source article

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 10 - 12:39 PM

"WHat exactly do they think they are fixing?"


             They have militant teachers continually trying to radicalize students--probably not many, but it doesn't take many.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 10 - 11:45 AM

Becky in Tucson, soon there will be my son Dylan in Tucson. He has a full scholarship to UA, and even if all of this had happened before he accept this scholarship (he had two full scholarships, but UA is the best school) I would have urged him to attend.

The responses to this have been across the board. I have always loved visiting and working in Arizona, and I presume that my son will love going to school there and I'll enjoy visiting. And that sooner, rather than later, the feds will reclaim their domain over immigration issues in Arizona, along with elsewhere. It is heartening to see that cities like Tucson protest this absurd legislation about immigration, and one assumes they will also work around the mess of this latest anti ethnic studies law.

We have a several friends in the state, intelligent people who are opposed to all of this nonsense, and he'll join their ranks as a voice for reason.

If Arizona is anything like Texas, the commingling of ethnic groups and race in the high schools today is unlike anything you'd have seen when I was in high school. And it is unlike, I suspect, the environment his father experience in New York City, which has always been more of a melting pot, but probably had a lot more artificial boundaries than today. I suspect the next generation will sweep away a lot of this nonsense as they come into their own, because we raised them to do just that.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 11:40 AM

`State schools chief Tom Horne, who has pushed the bill for years, said he believes the Tucson school district's Mexican-American studies program teaches Latino students that they are oppressed by white people.`

Gee, did he figure that out all by himself or did he have help. Hell, you Arizona folks gotta get them there histeria books rewritten.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 10 - 11:35 AM

Ya know what? I apologize for a push-button reaction to Riginslinger's contentious original post.

Those are important distinctions. My misreading was not wilful, but a little more reflection would have been good.

I am curious why such a rule was deemed necessary in the first place in Arizona.

"The measure signed Tuesday prohibits classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race or that promote resentment toward a certain ethnic group.

The Tucson Unified School District program offers specialized courses in African-American, Mexican-American and Native-American studies that focus on history and literature and include information about the influence of a particular ethnic group.

For example, in the Mexican-American Studies program, an American history course explores the role of Hispanics in the Vietnam War, and a literature course emphasizes Latino authors.

Horne, a Republican running for attorney general, said the program promotes "ethnic chauvinism" and racial resentment toward whites while segregating students by race. He's been trying to restrict it ever since he learned that Hispanic civil rights activist Dolores Huerta told students in 2006 that "Republicans hate Latinos."

District officials said the program doesn't promote resentment, and they believe it would comply with the new law.

The measure doesn't prohibit classes that teach about the history of a particular ethnic group, as long as the course is open to all students and doesn't promote ethnic solidarity or resentment.

About 1,500 students at six high schools are enrolled in the Tucson district's program. Elementary and middle school students also are exposed to the ethnic studies curriculum. The district is 56 percent Hispanic, with nearly 31,000 Latino students.

Sean Arce, director of the district's Mexican-American Studies program, said last month that students perform better in school if they see in the curriculum people who look like them.

"It's a highly engaging program that we have, and it's unfortunate that the state Legislature would go so far as to censor these classes," he said.

Six UN human rights experts released a statement earlier Tuesday saying all people have the right to learn about their own cultural and linguistic heritage, they said."

It sounds like a non-solution to a non-problem. WHat exactly do they think they are fixing?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 May 10 - 11:28 AM

I am flabergasted. As a former New Mexican with genes from both cultures, I deplore the action of the Arizona Republican lawmakers.
I hope this law gets to the courts quickly; I can't imagine it being upheld.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 10 - 11:12 AM

"A. It prohibits classes being restricted to one race or ethnic group."

    "B. It prohibits classes being used to promote hatred toward any particular race or ethnic group."



             Those are important distinctions, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 May 10 - 09:01 AM

And by the way, yes, I'd much rather children have contact with Catholic priests than with you, Rig.   The overwhelming majority of Catholic priests are wonderful people, no matter how you and other atheists try to smear the whole group with the actions of a very few.

Your record, on the other hand, speaks for itself.

How are sales at Smears R Us these days, by the way?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 May 10 - 08:47 AM

"children have contact with Catholic priests...?"

The poster is a wonderful spokesman for atheism. It is painfully obvious the Religious Right has, to say the least, no monopoly on bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 10 - 08:43 AM

The measure signed Tuesday prohibits classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race....

Of course, it doesn't apply to the core curriculum, which is designed primarily for stuidents of the white "race" [sic].

Or if it does, guess there won't be any classes at all in Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 May 10 - 08:42 AM

"...white supremacist of a very nasty kind".   A sterling bit of purple prose from a master of the art.


More likely it is, as I noted on the other thread, political positioning by Brewer to win the primary coming up--she's decided she'll do it from the Right.

It's very likely exploitation of ethnic resentment for political reasons--but you can bet Brewer herself will deny this resentment.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 10 - 08:28 AM

I suspect ethnic studies will continue in Arizona once things have settled down. I don't think teachers will be able to promot a political agenda and/or the overthrow of the government from the front of the classroom with the new law in place.

             Uncle DaveO is right. People are "willfully misreading the law."

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 May 10 - 08:17 AM

Depends on how words in the law are interpreted.

As I noted earlier, it's likely to be--another--gift to trial lawyers. Any time there is a controversial law, there will be trials.

This is likely to have a chilling effect on Chicano studies, which should in fact be part of the curriculum--not the whole thing but part.

Dave, as you will note, some articles dealing with the law point out that the teachers of the classes targeted deny that they teach resentment or hate of other groups.

There should be no problem with including some controversial literature in such classes--even some which does teach resentment.   The teacher can then point out how propaganda works. Does anybody think excerpts from Mein Kampf should be banned from history classes?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:55 AM

It seems to me that many posters are wilfully misreading the article which was linked to.

The article states that the new law does not prohibit classes in any particular ethnic culture or language or literature.

A. It prohibits classes being restricted to one race or ethnic group.

B. It prohibits classes being used to promote hatred toward any particular race or ethnic group.

Neither of those stipulations blocks study, say, of Hispanic literature, or Mexican history, and so forth.   

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:32 AM

It is becoming clear that Jan Brewer is a white supremacist of a very nasty kind.

Subject: RE: Immigration: Jan Brewer stands for truth & justice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:46 PM

Well, I closed the previous thread and crosslinked to this one. Riginslinger, you should know by now that you're allowed only one thread on any given subject. in fact, we generally allow only one currently active thread on any subject, no matter who starts them. For the same person to start two threads on the same subject, is a gross violation.
In addition, your thread title is sheer propaganda. I added the term "Immigration" to both threads so at least people would know what the thread is about.

Later: Riginslinger informed me that the threads were about two different subjects, so I retitled the threads and reopened the earlier thread. In the future, Riginslinger, please ensure that the thread title reflects what the thread is about - don't try to use the thread title to express your own opinion. Threads are for community discussion, not merely to express the ideas of the thread originator.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice-opinion
From: mousethief
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:42 PM

False dichotomy.

Subject: RE: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice-opinion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 May 10 - 09:46 PM

You'd rather have children have contact with Catholic Priests, maybe, huh Ron?

Subject: RE: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice-opinio
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 May 10 - 09:16 PM

"I've worked in public schools in California..."   That's too bad. I'm sorry for any kids you had contact with, Rig, unless of course you had no contact with children whatsoever.   We can hope.

Not that I would want to make a blanket statement like " Your attitudes are not what any sane person would want passed on to children."   Even though there is more than ample backing for such a statement, just on your Mudcat postings.   Unless of course the proudly ignorant, lazy, bigoted persona we see here under your moniker is just a put-on. Who knows, maybe it is. Again, we can hope.


And as Q notes, this entire thread should be combined with the other Brewer thread.   And look who started them both.   What a coincidence.

Subject: RE: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice-opinion
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 May 10 - 04:14 PM

A second thread about Brewer is unnecessary.

Subject: RE: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice-opinion
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:41 AM

Well, pdq, there are obviously a number of "bubble dwellers" out there who just don't want the truth to come out. It might conflict with some of their preconceived misconceptions.

Subject: RE: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice-opinion
From: pdq
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:12 AM

A little biography for all you folks. Mario Obledo was Jerry Brown's chief of staff:


Mario Obledo was born in Texas in 1932, the son of Mexican parents who had immigrated to the United States in 1915. From 1983 to 1985, Obledo served as President of the League of United Latin American Citizens (LULAC). He is also the co-founder of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF), which has become the most influential Hispanic advocacy group in the United States.

In May 1998 Obledo articulated his racial agenda by stating, "California is going to be a Hispanic state, and anyone who doesn't like it should leave. They should go back to Europe." "Eventually," he said the following month, "we [Hispanics] will take over all the political institutions of California."

In June 1998 Obledo was asked to comment on Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez's observation that "We have an aging white America, they are dying, I love it." Obledo responded: "He's a good friend of mine. A very smart person."

In August 1998 Obledo and the California chapter of LULAC joined forces to protest the Taco Bell restaurant chain's use of a chihuahua in its advertising. According to Obledo, the use of the dog was racist and offensive to Hispanics.

When the California Coalition for Immigration Reform (CCIR) in 1998 erected a billboard on the California/Arizona border reading, "Welcome to California, the Illegal Imigration State. Don't Let This Happen to Your State," an infuriated Obledo issued a press release threatening to blow up or burn down the billboard. Caving to this intimidation, the company that had rented the billboard space to CCIR refunded the organization's fee and removed the offending message.

In 1998 Obledo was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Bill Clinton.

Subject: RE: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice-opinion
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:07 AM

I also find it hard to see how suppressing educational information lies on the side of "truth", which usually involves more data, not less.

A

Subject: RE: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice-opinion
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:06 AM

You'd think our state legislature would have better things to do with its time.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice-opinion
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:01 AM

Boy, talk about selecting the wrong target!! A classic symptom of neurotic thinking, Rig. What is the merit in suppressing ethnic studies? Do you think the public schools should be limited to the White Man's Version of History for some altruistic reason of your own?

Jaysus.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 May 10 - 10:17 AM

Yes, pdq, I've worked in public schools in California where some (a few, not all by any means) Hispanic teachers hated white kids. They'd call them "Angols," and roll their eyes when they said it. And these kids had to take classes from these racists teachers. Not surprisingly, discipline was always a problem in their classrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice
From: pdq
Date: 12 May 10 - 09:19 AM

I went to the website Rigs posted and next to a carefully-selected picture that is intended to make Jan Brewer look as mean as possible, is this text:

By JONATHAN J. COOPER, Associated Press Writer

PHOENIX – Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer has signed a bill targeting a school district's ethnic studies program, hours after a report by United Nations human rights experts condemned the measure.
State schools chief Tom Horne, who has pushed the bill for years, said he believes the Tucson school district's Mexican-American studies program teaches Latino students that they are oppressed by white people.

Public schools should not be encouraging students to resent a particular race, he said.

"It's just like the old South, and it's long past time that we prohibited it," Horne said.

Brewer's signature on the bill Tuesday comes less than a month after she signed the nation's toughest crackdown on illegal immigration — a move that ignited international backlash amid charges the measure would encourage racial profiling of Hispanics. The governor has said profiling will not be tolerated.

The measure signed Tuesday prohibits classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race or that promote resentment toward a certain ethnic group.

The Tucson Unified School District program offers specialized courses in African-American, Mexican-American and Native-American studies that focus on history and literature and include information about the influence of a particular ethnic group.

For example, in the Mexican-American Studies program, an American history course explores the role of Hispanics in the Vietnam War, and a literature course emphasizes Latino authors.

Horne, a Republican running for attorney general, said the program promotes "ethnic chauvinism" and racial resentment toward whites while segregating students by race. He's been trying to restrict it ever since he learned that Hispanic civil rights activist Dolores Huerta told students in 2006 that "Republicans hate Latinos."

District officials said the program doesn't promote resentment, and they believe it would comply with the new law.

The measure doesn't prohibit classes that teach about the history of a particular ethnic group, as long as the course is open to all students and doesn't promote ethnic solidarity or resentment.

About 1,500 students at six high schools are enrolled in the Tucson district's program. Elementary and middle school students also are exposed to the ethnic studies curriculum. The district is 56 percent Hispanic, with nearly 31,000 Latino students.

Sean Arce, director of the district's Mexican-American Studies program, said last month that students perform better in school if they see in the curriculum people who look like them.

"It's a highly engaging program that we have, and it's unfortunate that the state Legislature would go so far as to censor these classes," he said.

Six UN human rights experts released a statement earlier Tuesday saying all people have the right to learn about their own cultural and linguistic heritage, they said.

Brewer spokesman Paul Senseman didn't directly address the UN criticism, but said Brewer supports the bill's goal.

"The governor believes ... public school students should be taught to treat and value each other as individuals and not be taught to resent or hate other races or classes of people," Senseman said.

Arce could not immediately be reached after Brewer signed the bill late Tuesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 May 10 - 08:59 AM

I don't think so, Ron, not in this case. I think they can go to court, and win or lose, the public will become aware of what goes on in these particular ethnic studies classes, and win or lose, it will be a win for the people of Arizona and the country. All it needs is exposure.

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 May 10 - 08:34 AM

Sounds like another gift to trial lawyers.   Just why do you love trial lawyers so much, Rig?

Subject: RE: BS: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 10 - 08:32 AM

Well, there go classes on Black history and Latino literature. Don't forget the part that says that teachers with accents can't teach English anymore, Rig.

Subject: BS: Jan Brewer stands for truth and justice
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 May 10 - 07:35 AM

Finally, somebody in a position of authority gets it and is willing to do something about it. It's about time these people were exposed. Jan Brewer did more in a few weeks than has been done since Eisenhower.

    "The measure signed Tuesday prohibits classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race or that promote resentment toward a certain ethnic group."

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