BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:22 PM

Yes Bruce, I've read it. It is designed to oppress the schools and the non-"anglo" students, with a thin veneer of respectability over the top. Read it again. My opinion of Brewer is no higher, and my opinion of the drafter of this piece of bigotry is lower.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: MMario
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:23 PM

Well - actually when I went to school there were "minority only" courses in the African-American studies. They claimed it was because the "presence of the majority ethnic group would inhibit expression" of the remainder of the students.

Filipinos, asians, hispanics and native americans were allowed to take the black study courses though....

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:25 PM

Amos, Try reading:

"A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE
10 IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE
11 FOLLOWING:
12 1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
13 2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
14 3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
15 4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
16 INDIVIDUALS."


Richard,

So you approve of having classes saying that whites are superior and own all the land?? Or "white only" classes?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:34 PM

Geeziz Bruce....Can you not see what a piece of shit law that is? Subsection A says they have the right to kick any and all ass at their whim and Subsection E gives them all the wiggle room they need to act like assholes and yet say otherwise. You can't do XXXXX but when we bust you for XXXXX it is really okay as long as we think so and here is our justification.

And just out of curiosity, can you refine the difference between radical teachers and teachers who challenge a student to think using the knowledge he's given? Or would you prefer just dull history parroted by a mediocre teacher and then parroted back by an equally uncaring student?

"Education is the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent"......John Maynard Keynes

If you can get fiery and motivated teachers, try not to label them as insurgent rabble-rousers. Its a very popular thing to do in this country and hence we have a suck-ass educational system where the problem is not bad teachers but the overwhelming preponderance on fucking MEDIOCRE teachers. The very best get completely fried with the system and dumbass laws like this POS and go find something else to do.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:34 PM

13 2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.


THis one is a loophole as long as your arm. Studying the European conquest of North America, for example, could easily "promote" resentment toward the US Cavalry, white folks, or men with beards. Ya think? I think it is dicey to presume what a certain set of facts will or will not induce in an individual mind.

Aside from that it is an interesting law.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 03:37 PM

Amos,

So you would approve aof a KKK white's only class giving their version of history?


THAT is what you imply.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:33 PM

BB, as you put it, try reading:

15-112. Prohibited courses and classes; enforcement
A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE
IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS INDIVIDUALS.

As I read that, section 15-112A3 specifically bans such programs as Black history, Hispanic studies and the like, since those programs are intended for students from those groups and, while not specifically restricted, few if any students from other groups would ever enroll in them. I do note that, further on in the law, classes on the Holocaust are allowed. Surprising, but I guess there aren't many Hispanic Jews in Arizona.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:40 PM

Art,

I disagree: "As I read that, section 15-112A3 specifically bans such programs as Black history, Hispanic studies and the like, since those programs are intended for students from those groups "


The law states in section E.
E. THIS SECTION SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED TO RESTRICT OR PROHIBIT:
....
3. COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE THE HISTORY OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP AND THAT ARE OPEN TO ALL STUDENTS, "


So, as long as they are OPEN to all students, they are allowed.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:00 PM

I think that section reads "3. COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE THE HISTORY OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP AND THAT ARE OPEN TO ALL STUDENTS, UNLESS THE COURSE OR CLASS VIOLATES SUBSECTION A." [emphasis added]

So, if a course is "designed for" African-American students, but Anglos are allowed to enroll (even if they don't), it would still be prohibited. I doubt very much that any program in any public school in Arizona specifically bans the enrollment of specific ethnic groups - they certainly didn't when I lived in Arizona - so all courses are "open" by definition and section A must govern. If section E trumps section A under all circumstances, than there is no reason for the law in the first place...other than Brewer positioning herself politically.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:13 PM

Art,

The entire first section is as I posted:

"A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE
IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
INDIVIDUALS."


I would think that these are points to support: Do you think ity a good idea to have courses that do ANY of this? ANY course should be designed for ALL the students- NOT for a small group ( except as noted in section E)

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:28 PM

Thanks, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bill D
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:28 PM

And Bruce...try reading what *I* said: (I'll forgo the caps)

"Whether or not this law is intended to prohibit all ethnic studies and limit what Latino students can participate in AS Latinos, it will certainly be perceived as such BY Latinos."

Since it is already perceived as such by many here already, do you not suspect it WILL be viewed that way by various ethnic groups as a way to further control, harass, limit and intimidate them?

It is either an attempt to do that in a sneaky way, or it is a terribly poorly written bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:31 PM

BillD,

Yet you have stated that the PERCEPTION by conservatives and libertarians is of no significance, and that the programs put forward by the Obama admministration should be in effect regardless.


How would one logically justify woriing only about one groups perceptione, and not another groups?

the word "bigotry" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bill D
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:51 PM

Bruce..I will no longer debate things where all you can do is claim 'double-standard'....unless that is the main point under consideration.

And I have NOT "...stated that the PERCEPTION by conservatives and libertarians is of no significance,..." NOR that Obama's programs should 'be in effect".
You are inventing a context, inventing statements I have not made, then basing an argument on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:06 PM

Gentlemen, I ain`t as smart as either of you guys. I will however say this: If that`s the law as written, it`s a clumsy piece of English. Anyone who says he understands that law as written is, IMO, fulla shit. Maybe that`s what`s so scary about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:08 PM

The law was constructed to prevent militant teachers from carrying out radical political agendas at the tax payers' expense. That's why it was written for the purpose of supporting ethnic studies programs which are designed to help students learn, and to discourage destructive politics from being broadcast in a public classroom by individuals on public payrolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:12 PM

As a parenthetical aside, it`s interesting to note that when totalitarian groups get into power they inevitably kill teachers. Anyone needing proof for that statement shouldn`t be posting on political threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:24 PM

Attacks on native courses taught on the Indian Reserves will be next- thank the Lord that the reservations are under federal jurisdiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:26 PM

The school district and the state are not attacking courses, they are attacking radicalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:29 PM

"Since it is already perceived as such by many here already, do you not suspect it WILL be viewed that way by various ethnic groups as a way to further control, harass, limit and intimidate them?"

Yet the same logic does NOT apply to the people opposed to the Obama Health Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:33 PM

Not that it is in any way relevant to this discussion, but the health care legislation recently passed by a majority of both houses of Congress is not the legislation that President Obama wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:55 PM

Art,


Immaterial.

BillD is postulating that the PERCEPTION of those affected by this law should be the controlling factor, and take priority over the actual law, and I was pointing out that the PERCEPTIONS of those affected in a previous case were of no significance to him, and he derided those who had any concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:14 PM

Read my previous post....The law is crap and will never hold up. Healthcare???? wtf........

I will not debate this one any more as I have seen no argument for this law that will hold up before the courts. The film that tries to obscure the bigotry of it is microns thin. Bruce is sending up clouds of acrid claptrap meaning nothing. And for now it is as the ACLU signs say:

What starts in Arizona
Stays in Arizona

Already stopped one attempt by a racist sheriff here in Ohio.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:16 PM

Bruce:

Ya know, man, if you keep sticking ugly thoughts into other peoples' mouths like that, you ain't NEVER gonna have no friends. Especially since you have to twist their words to do it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:22 PM

Sorry, Amos, it is MY PERCEPTION that those here complaining about the law have not read it, nor given any thought to it's meaning. They are just repeating the Administration view, thinking that they can defione it as they wish without looking at what it says.

The AG is going to bring suit against it- and admits to a congressional committe he HAS NOT READ THE LAW. THAT is the kind of government YOU claim is better than Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:27 PM

I understood Holder was thinking about bringing suit against the immigration law, is he going after this law as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:42 PM

Bearded Bruce is once again yanking chains as hard as he can.

No surprise there. Why waste your time arguing with him? You'll never change his mind. He argues just to argue.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 07:50 PM

Typical ad hominim attack.


Oh, I better define it for her:

[Latin, To the person.] A term used in debate to denote an argument made personally against an opponent, instead of against the opponent's argument.



Can't expect her to know anything pertaining to reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 10 - 08:39 PM

Sho nuff would be nice to get to a point where real American History is taught but that ain't never gonna happen... So until the crap that is passed off as the real story leans more toward history and less toward mythology then we owe it to ourselves to offer classes that teach the roles that non-WASPs have played in our history...

I mean, the right wants it both ways... They want mythology and they don't want no-one teaching nuthin' else???

Hmmmmmmmm???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 10 - 08:42 PM

"They want mythology and they don't want no-one teaching nuthin' else???"

No, Bobert. The LAW wants ALL types of history taught to ALL students, not a selected version hand crafted for each minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 May 10 - 09:05 PM

Art has it:   If Section E trumps Section A always, the law is meaningless--except for Brewer's chance to throw red meat to the Right--and thereby assure she wins her primary despite her stepping off the True Path at least once, to actually advocate raising a tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 10 - 09:35 PM

Then, bb, can I assume that you are in favor of the law??? If so, when are the American History books going to be rewritten to reflect our real history??? Yeah, that's what I am talkin' about here... What is taught is not our real history... It is history/mytholgy as seen by white people... It is pure bullshit and sanitized revisionism... I know... One of the things I am qulaified to do and have done is teach Amercan History... It's bullshit... It's like fiction... When are the books to be rewritten by real historians that aren'ty out to make white people look so smart, so much the story and so guiltless??? Yeah, when that happens we have turned the corner... Right now, we are still teaching bullshit...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 13 May 10 - 09:56 PM

Correction: 'Certified" to teach American History... Qualified??? I donno, seein' as I am a product of "the system"... That's what I am talkin' about... The sytem has come up with it's own story... Problem is that their story is just that... A story... I mean, if you studied Virginia History, the way is was and may still be be taught, you'd think that 1619 was when Aftricans came over to help the colonists??? That is not real history... That is mythology...

Why can't we just tell the truth???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 13 May 10 - 11:40 PM

If Superintendent Tom Horne and the idiots in the big house in Phoenix want to pass meaningless laws like this, I guess it's better than passing hurtful ones. They'll have to prove that the classes are damaging. They never attended any before they wrote the law... These are classes that reduced minority dropout rates and increased the number of minority students going to college.

Wish they'd get off their asses and figure out the state's budget, instead.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 10 - 01:48 AM

No, Bobert. The LAW wants ALL types of history taught to ALL students

Is that the same LAW that chooses textbooks in Texas? You know, the ones that are leaving out some of the history because it doesn't support their pet theories and hatreds?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 10 - 07:53 AM

Or the law that requires creationism to be taught in certain schools???

Face it, curriculum ain't what it used to be and when it used to be it was still mythology...

BTW, did George Washington really cut down that cherry tree???

I mean, it's bad enough to glorify Confederate generals )Monument Ave. in Richmond) but do we still have to glorify America's stupidist war... I mean, the Civil (which it wasn't) War makes Vietnam look well thought out???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 08:12 AM

The problem they had was, there was a certain number of Hispanic teachers who thought it was their job to go to work each day and try to incite a riot.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 10 - 08:22 AM

Oh??? Is that right???

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:31 AM

I echo Bobert: Oh? Is that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:43 AM

And again, let me reiterate.........

While it could be true the teachers were "inciting to riot" it might also be that they were doing the job as it should be done.

"Education is the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent"......John Maynard Keynes

Education in this country has reached new nadirs of mediocrity and I sometimes wonder if a great teacher can be recognized as such and might be looked at as a radical.

Aw screw it........Why am I bothering with this thread? This one requires 3d action and on that I am doing what I can.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 10 - 09:46 AM

Rig, is that your own personal knowledge of the Arizina situation, information from elsewhere (please provide cite/site), or your extrapolation from your brief experience subbing in California schools lo these many years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:22 AM

From what I can tell from various sources, the K-12 school population in Tucson is:

       57% Mexican
       29% White
         7% Black
         7% "other"

Having classes that are restricted in enrollment to one race is wrong. With this new law, as of 31 DEC 2010, it will be illegal in one state, Arizona.

Having teachers and guest speakers advocate civil disobedience against the US government and/or hatred of another race is also wrong and will soon be illegal, at least in the state of Arizona.

It seems like the Progressives should view this as a victory, but that appears not to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:35 AM

These are clips from Hispanic leaders, and this is the material the teachers teach (some teachers--most Hispanic teachers are more responsible--but it only takes a few).



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHnzn2KT7JE

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 10 - 10:49 AM

Your overheated rhetoric actually reduces your effectiveness, BB. Bush's administration, compared to Obama's, is like comparing the Bloods and the Crips to UCSD.

The law is badly worded, IMHO, and is not actually going to improve things.

Furthermore, the noble tradition of CIVIL disobedience SHOULD be taught and not mashed into the same category as sedition. You trteads a very slippery slope when you try and make indpendent speech into seditious speech. Just sayin'. Civil disobedience does not advocate overthrow. Just change.




A

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:22 AM

THERE IS NO RESTRICTED ENROLLMENT IN THE CLASSES!

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:28 AM

There was, there isn't now.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:40 AM

Well Rig, if there was, there are plenty of laws already to deal with the situation. Writing and enacting this new law is akin to attacking a fly with an H-Bomb.   

The new law is a POS........


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:45 AM

I suspect they were "defacto segregated." That might still go on, but it won't go on unnoticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:45 AM

Well, Desert Dancer has had kids in the Tucson school system, which is the one being specifically targeted in this law. I think I'd take her word on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arizona law targeting ethnic studies
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 10 - 11:55 AM

Classes are often segregated by language skills, and individual who was even marginally observant could connect the dots.