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BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)

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Q (Frank Staplin) 18 May 10 - 11:44 PM
Teribus 19 May 10 - 12:18 AM
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Teribus 19 May 10 - 11:06 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 May 10 - 02:13 PM
Teribus 19 May 10 - 02:29 PM
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Ed T 19 May 10 - 06:31 PM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 27 May 10 - 02:48 PM
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Stringsinger 29 May 10 - 04:14 PM
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GUEST,Teribus 30 May 10 - 06:47 AM
Ron Davies 30 May 10 - 10:13 AM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 30 May 10 - 05:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 May 10 - 05:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 May 10 - 05:30 PM
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SINSULL 31 May 10 - 05:50 PM
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Alice 11 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM
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Greg F. 11 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM
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Ebbie 11 Jun 10 - 01:08 PM
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Howard Jones 11 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM
Arthur_itus 11 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM
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Lonesome EJ 11 Jun 10 - 01:23 PM
Greg F. 11 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM
Arthur_itus 11 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM
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Arthur_itus 11 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM
mousethief 11 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM
Howard Jones 11 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM
mousethief 11 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM
Arthur_itus 11 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM
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Ebbie 11 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Jun 10 - 09:13 PM
Greg F. 11 Jun 10 - 09:25 PM
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Ebbie 11 Jun 10 - 11:51 PM
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Joe Offer 12 Jun 10 - 04:20 AM
Howard Jones 12 Jun 10 - 05:11 AM
Ed T 12 Jun 10 - 07:59 AM
Greg F. 12 Jun 10 - 10:13 AM
Alice 12 Jun 10 - 11:32 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM
Ebbie 12 Jun 10 - 12:57 PM
mousethief 12 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM
Stringsinger 12 Jun 10 - 02:46 PM
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Joe Offer 12 Jun 10 - 06:45 PM
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Ebbie 13 Jun 10 - 03:24 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Jun 10 - 03:41 AM
Arthur_itus 13 Jun 10 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jun 10 - 05:26 AM
Howard Jones 13 Jun 10 - 07:23 AM
Arthur_itus 13 Jun 10 - 07:50 AM
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Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 10 - 10:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 10 - 10:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jun 10 - 01:01 PM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jun 10 - 02:12 PM
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Stringsinger 13 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM
Alice 13 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jun 10 - 04:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jun 10 - 05:00 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM
Alice 13 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM
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Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM
Greg F. 13 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM
Ed T 13 Jun 10 - 08:07 PM
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Richard Bridge 16 Jun 10 - 03:18 AM
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Richard Bridge 16 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM
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Don Firth 16 Jun 10 - 02:46 PM
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Alice 16 Jun 10 - 03:32 PM
Don Firth 16 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM
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mousethief 16 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM
Alice 16 Jun 10 - 05:59 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 10 - 06:06 PM
mousethief 16 Jun 10 - 07:21 PM
Tootler 16 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jun 10 - 08:41 PM
Charley Noble 16 Jun 10 - 10:32 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Jun 10 - 01:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jun 10 - 01:47 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM
Ebbie 17 Jun 10 - 02:01 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 02:10 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jun 10 - 02:11 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 02:14 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 02:15 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jun 10 - 02:28 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Jun 10 - 03:58 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 04:12 AM
Arthur_itus 17 Jun 10 - 04:26 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 04:34 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jun 10 - 07:10 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 08:20 AM
artbrooks 17 Jun 10 - 08:23 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM
Greg F. 17 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM
mousethief 17 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM
Arthur_itus 17 Jun 10 - 02:51 PM
Ebbie 17 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 03:04 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM
Arthur_itus 17 Jun 10 - 03:25 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM
Don Firth 17 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM
Arthur_itus 17 Jun 10 - 04:33 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 06:32 PM
Bobert 17 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM
Stringsinger 17 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 PM
Alice 17 Jun 10 - 08:04 PM
Bobert 17 Jun 10 - 08:20 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 08:23 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 08:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jun 10 - 08:43 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 10:10 PM
CarolC 18 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM
Don Firth 18 Jun 10 - 04:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM
mousethief 18 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM
DougR 18 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jun 10 - 06:03 PM
CarolC 18 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Jun 10 - 10:21 PM
Teribus 19 Jun 10 - 08:20 AM
Greg F. 19 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM
mousethief 19 Jun 10 - 12:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM
mousethief 19 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM
Don Firth 19 Jun 10 - 02:20 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Jun 10 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Jun 10 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Jun 10 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Jun 10 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,TIA 19 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Jun 10 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Jun 10 - 12:42 AM
Ebbie 20 Jun 10 - 03:09 AM
Greg F. 20 Jun 10 - 08:38 AM
Teribus 20 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM
Teribus 20 Jun 10 - 09:48 AM
Ed T 20 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM
Greg F. 20 Jun 10 - 11:50 AM
mousethief 20 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,Sugarfoot Jack who's cookie has gone west 20 Jun 10 - 12:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Jun 10 - 10:28 PM
Teribus 21 Jun 10 - 12:23 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 10 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM
Teribus 21 Jun 10 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 10 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Jun 10 - 04:46 AM
Ed T 21 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM
Ed T 21 Jun 10 - 09:57 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Jun 10 - 02:04 PM
Teribus 21 Jun 10 - 05:40 PM
Teribus 21 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM
Don Firth 21 Jun 10 - 07:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Jun 10 - 08:53 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Jun 10 - 04:18 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM
Don Firth 22 Jun 10 - 04:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Jun 10 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Jun 10 - 03:17 AM
Donuel 23 Jun 10 - 09:53 AM
dick greenhaus 23 Jun 10 - 11:05 AM
mousethief 23 Jun 10 - 11:17 AM
SINSULL 23 Jun 10 - 12:55 PM
Greg F. 23 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM
mousethief 23 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM
Don Firth 23 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Jun 10 - 03:39 PM
Don Firth 23 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM
Stringsinger 23 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Jun 10 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Jun 10 - 02:31 AM
Don Firth 24 Jun 10 - 03:04 PM
katlaughing 24 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM
Ed T 24 Jun 10 - 08:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Jun 10 - 10:16 PM
robomatic 24 Jun 10 - 11:03 PM
Greg F. 25 Jun 10 - 08:30 AM
Ebbie 25 Jun 10 - 12:48 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jun 10 - 01:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM
Ebbie 25 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM
Ed T 25 Jun 10 - 04:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM
Ed T 25 Jun 10 - 08:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jun 10 - 10:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Jun 10 - 11:02 PM
Ed T 26 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM
Donuel 26 Jun 10 - 09:49 AM
Ed T 26 Jun 10 - 09:56 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM
Donuel 26 Jun 10 - 06:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Jun 10 - 08:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM
Ed T 26 Jun 10 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM
Ed T 27 Jun 10 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jun 10 - 11:30 AM
Ed T 27 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM
Ed T 27 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM
Stringsinger 27 Jun 10 - 01:59 PM
Ed T 27 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jun 10 - 02:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jun 10 - 12:09 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,ibo 28 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Jun 10 - 04:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Jun 10 - 05:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jun 10 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jun 10 - 07:51 PM
Shanghaiceltic 29 Jun 10 - 09:00 PM
Don Firth 29 Jun 10 - 09:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jun 10 - 09:27 PM
Greg F. 29 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 30 Jun 10 - 04:03 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Jun 10 - 11:01 PM
mousethief 30 Jun 10 - 11:16 PM
Ebbie 01 Jul 10 - 01:19 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Jul 10 - 03:54 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jul 10 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Jul 10 - 11:11 AM
Ed T 02 Jul 10 - 11:43 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Jul 10 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jul 10 - 12:55 AM
Ed T 03 Jul 10 - 08:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 10 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jul 10 - 04:10 AM
Ed T 04 Jul 10 - 08:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jul 10 - 10:56 PM
Ed T 04 Jul 10 - 11:13 PM
dick greenhaus 06 Jul 10 - 06:38 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Jul 10 - 04:23 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Jul 10 - 01:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Jul 10 - 03:11 PM
GUEST 15 Jul 10 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 15 Jul 10 - 04:37 PM
Alice 15 Jul 10 - 09:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Jul 10 - 10:05 PM
Alice 15 Jul 10 - 11:24 PM
Don Firth 16 Jul 10 - 12:19 AM
Don Firth 16 Jul 10 - 12:24 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Jul 10 - 03:33 AM
Arthur_itus 16 Jul 10 - 05:13 AM
Teribus 16 Jul 10 - 06:48 AM
Greg F. 16 Jul 10 - 07:33 AM
Teribus 16 Jul 10 - 08:32 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Jul 10 - 10:20 AM
Don Firth 16 Jul 10 - 05:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jul 10 - 06:23 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 10 - 09:00 PM
Bill D 18 Jul 10 - 09:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 10 - 10:00 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Jul 10 - 03:37 AM
catspaw49 19 Jul 10 - 07:13 AM
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Subject: US bigots attack British Company
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:24 PM

From Reuters "On the Deepwater Horizon, three of those systems -- the blowout preventer, the metal casing within the well and the cement that held it in place -- all likely failed, according to testimony from company officials and data gathered by investigators from the House Energy and Commerce Committee."

US politicians including Obama blame BP. BP made and operated NONE of those things.

George III was right.


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Subject: RE: US bigots attack British Company
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:24 PM

OH shit, that should be BS please.


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Subject: RE: US bigots attack British Company
From: Anglo
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:40 PM

BP isn't even "British Petroleum" any more, it's just BP. Is it still British?


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Subject: RE: US bigots attack British Company
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:48 PM

While it may be true that "BP made and operated NONE of those things," BP was ultimately responsible. because they hired the various suppliers and subcontractors in question.

They also, one might reasonably presume, instructed said subs about how much they were allowed to spend on safety precaustions. BP's record of recent operations worldwide seems to indicate a notable reluctance to take safety regulations seriously, and a general habit of cutting corners (financially) whenever possible.

And, really, they're not "British Company" any more than Exxon/Mobile is "American." They're all multinational corporations, able to elude most of the controls, taxes, etc.,. that any one national government might wish to impose upon them.


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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
From: michaelr
Date: 13 May 10 - 04:57 PM

Which US bigots are you talking about, Richard?


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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:26 PM

The ones in congress. I've seen the speeches. The problems are due to US companies and their defaults. If they could not do the job for the price they should not have taken it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
From: Ed T
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:29 PM

who are the us in "us bigots"?


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Subject: RE: US bigots attack British Company
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:32 PM

Well, now we have THREE threads on this subject:
  • One is titled off shore oil rig spill and more, which is a pretty good title - that one was started 1 May 2010.
  • Another, started 27 April, was titled Spill, Baby, Spill... A moderator retitled this Spill, Baby, Spill... (Palin & oil spills), so that readers would have some chance of knowing what the thread was about.
  • So today we have a new thread on the same subject, titled with the very objective title, US bigots attack British Company. I'm going to change that to BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill), so people can choose whether they want read yet another oil spill thread.

I think there was another oil spill thread, one questioning Obama's statement that deep-water oil drilling is failsafe these days - but I couldn't find that thread because the title didn't mention oil.

Seems to me that all of these discussions could be contained in a thread titled Louisiana Oil Spill, April, 2010 - and there would be far less duplication of comments. Maybe not, maybe there IS justification for having a number of threads on this oil spill - but I would ask for a bit of Truth In Titling. If you'r starting a thread about the oil spill, say so - don't title your thread with some sort of propaganda statement.

We've had the same thing recently in threads about the Governor of Arizona, whom some Mudcatter seems to have a sexual fixation on because of her anti-Latino actions. Instead of actually stating what the thread was about, this Mudcatter titled the threads with statements about what a fine American she is, standing up for truth, justice, and the American Way.

And then there is the pair of threads on Gay/Lesbian/Transgender folkies in the UK, and I'm still left wondering why there have to be TWO threads active on such closely related subjects in the same week.


So, friends and neighbors, when you start a new thread, please try to think about two things:
  1. Is this thread really necessary, or is it a duplicate discussion that could easily be conducted as a continuation of an earlier thread?
  2. Does the title of the thread reflect what is the actual topic of discussion?


Thank you.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:39 PM

I had not read the others in that they seemed to be irrelevant to my perspective. I was an am infuriated by the clips I saw of partisan comment by US politicians.

I am content if this thread is combined with others - but my perspective at present remains the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
From: gnu
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:51 PM

Wrap em up, Joe. Good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:07 PM

I agree with Richard that this is a "separate" topic, about the national identity (or lack thereof) of the corporation, and whether or not people's reaction indicates some sort of nationalism or bigotry.

(The fact that I do NOT completely agree with his position on the question is another matter entirely.)

This oil spill is a pretty BIG topic, and (unfortunately) will probably continue to be relevant for a very long time. I don't think that it's at all inappropriate to maintain a few "subtopics," if they're well defined.

I believe that the question of whether multinationals should ever be thought of as "belonging" to one nation or another is important, and that better understanding of the answer(s) can lead to deeper insight into a whole passel of contemporary socioeconomic and global-political issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:14 PM

After the fire and loss of life at the BP refinery in Texas, many Americans question the safety record of BP. More lives unfortunately lost in this Texas blowout.

But I also think most Americans throw BP in the same pot as Exxon-Mobil, Shell, Chevron, Total, Petronas, Petrochina, what have you, rather than regarding it as particularly British. Just another big oil company.
The blame game gets us nowhere. The well, in 5000 feet of water and drilling into a seismic prospect at great sedimentary depth, was at the limit of engineering knowledge. A blowout from the high pressure encountered in the formation may not have neen controllable. BP, as operator, is 'responsible', but the regulatory body, MMS, should bear blame for not questioning the objective and requiring more stringent controls.

BP is trying to spread the blame (statements in the Senate hearing) because the cost is going to be huge; I would guess that legal proceedings will be prolonged. But the cost to individuals and wildlife damaged by the blowout will never be fully compensated.


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Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:18 PM

I really have no quarrel with this being a separate thread, but I wanted to point out that there is a question whether it should be a new thread or a continuation of an earlier one. What I DO disagree with completely, is the original thread title. I believe that a thread title should be a factual and unbiased statement of the topic of discussion, and not a political statement. AND, at the very least, the original thread title should have mentioned that the thread had to do with the old spill.

And now back to the topic of discussion. As has been said above, BP is a multinational conglomerate, not really a representative of the United Kingdom. Trying to make this into a US insult to the UK is a deception. And, as has also been stated above - the work may have been done by a BP subcontractor, but Obama and others are absolutely correct in looking through the smokescreen and pointing the finger at BP because it IS a BP project.

This whole thing illustrates twin evils that are very pervasive in today's corporate world:
  • the multinational nature of corporations that allows them to evade the legal control of any nation
  • outsourcing, which allows corporations to evade responsibility for their actions and liability for their mistakes


  • These two aspects of multinational corporate chicanery allow corporations to be completely above legal control. Corporations no longer have to honor labor laws, or pay for benefits and pensions and vacations for employees - they get their workers from "job shops" that never allow employees to work long enough to get benefits or pensions. Corporations no longer have liability for mistakes, since their risky work is performed by short-lived "limited liability corporations." If a nation enacts statutes to protect workers, multinationals just move the work to another country. And the list of evasions goes on and on and on.

    Our multinational corporations are morally and ethically bankrupt. And this oil spill is a good illustration of how they have developed tactics that allow them to screw the entire world, cheating all of humanity and doing irreparable damage to nature - totally evading all responsibility and liability.

    Governments do the same things nowadays. I worked 25 years of the 30 I needed to earn a full U.S. Government pension. But the Clinton administration privatized my job, so now I'm trying to live on half the pension I expected.

    -Joe Offer-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 13 May 10 - 07:11 PM

    Joe - you are right about multinationals evading responsibility - but wrong about the thread title. Who do you think Big Oil predominantly owns?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 13 May 10 - 07:12 PM

    Oh, and who do you think are the truly guilty companies and where are they based?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: catspaw49
    Date: 13 May 10 - 07:25 PM

    I really don't get the "bigot" part Richard.

    There is a general hatred for ALL of the oil companies no matter where they are or who owns them. What the average Joe sees here is that they rake in windfall profits and don't give a damn about the consumer.

    While there were probably hundreds of sub-contractors, the profits from that rig go to BP so we tend to believe they need to pay for the mess. Exxon didn't build the Valdez but the responsibility was theirs.

    Spaw


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Bill D
    Date: 13 May 10 - 07:35 PM

    "BP made and operated NONE of those things."

    As owner and organizer of the operation, BP is ultimately responsible for oversight of those they hire to design, build & operate the platform. (Just as NASA was responsible for being sure Morton-Thiacol provided safe O-ring seals for the space shuttle)

    The supposed 'bigots' have noted the culpability of ALL relevant parties to this disaster. It really doesn't matter whether you 'believe' US congressmen are bigots or not, for even bigots can sometimes see the areas of responsibility in such cases.

    There is plenty of blame to go around on this one.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 13 May 10 - 07:36 PM

    As I understand it, BP is now a Dutch company. Secondly, BP has a history of sloppy operations with numerous fines being laid on them.

    So, who should we blame? it is OUR coastline they are destroying and now they want us to limit their liability to a measly 27 million!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Riginslinger
    Date: 13 May 10 - 07:40 PM

    I've come to side with the folks who want to raise the price of fuel--either through taxes or some mechanism--to lower the demand. As long as there's a demand for this much petroleum, these things are going to happen more frequently, in my opinion.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 13 May 10 - 07:53 PM

    OK, Richard, so where is the truth in your (original) thread title: US bigots attack British Company?? For one thing you neglected to say this was another oil spill thread. For another, you "spun" things by calling the American accusers "bigots" and BP "British." And thirdly, you bought BP's denial of responsibility - when what they did was evade responsibility by clouding the problem in subcontracts.

    You ask:
    Who do you think Big Oil predominantly owns?
    and
    Oh, and who do you think are the truly guilty companies and where are they based?

    I gave my answer - the multinational oil companies are not located in any one nation, and consider themselves to be immune to the control of any nation. What's your answer?

    -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Tootler
    Date: 13 May 10 - 08:10 PM

    Richard, I think you are wrong. It seems that all the companies concerned are in the blame shifting business. All furiously trying to pass the buck on to someone else. Surely, BP as the ultimate contractor are ultimately responsible as they hired the others.

    If BP had been prepared to accept their share of the responsibility for the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, then I might have had some sympathy with them, but as they did not, then all power to Obama I say. Don't forget that it is the US that is suffering from the spill, so the US Senators are quite rightly concerned. If it had happened over here, I am sure our politicians would have responded in exactly the same way.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Charley Noble
    Date: 13 May 10 - 08:56 PM

    There's plenty of blame to spread around to the subcontractors, including Haliburton, but as people have pointed out BP bears the primary responsibility.

    To their credit BP executives have assured the public that they are also not going to hide behind the shield of $27 million in this instance.

    However, the detailed reports that surfaced yesterday in hearings spell out that in this instance there were warnings that were ignored in basic problems with the "blow-out preventer" system prior to well eruption and pipe rupture:

    1. pipe integrity problems indicated from pressure tests

    2. a significant hydraulic leak in the ram driver system

    3. a dead battery that was supposed to activate the so-called "deadman" trigger

    4. evidently the ram drive the operators spent a day trying to use after the blowout was the one especially re-configured to test the system and was no longer operational for any other purpose.

    I suppose that it's disturbing to some BP supporters that politicians in the US are racking them over the coals for this environmental disaster. But, gee, what the f**k should they expect? And in what way should politicians raising such questions in the House and Commerce Committee hearings be characterized as "bigots"?

    Joe, please delete this self-indulgent thread. Two threads are more than enough.

    And Mr. Bridge should apologize for initiating it.

    Charley Noble


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 13 May 10 - 09:25 PM

    First to Kendall- Royal Dutch Shell is the one you are thinking of.

    Joe, you are wrong about the hiring policies of the major oil companies. Their workers are highly paid. They get good pensions upon retirement- I am one of the pensioners. The man in charge of the BP well receives six figures, and the chief technician gets close to that or the same.
    The professionals are the best that universities can produce with at least four years engineering or earth sciences degrees.
    The procedures and exploration programs are usually led by Ph.D. level specialists.
    I was with an Exxon company, but I worked on cooperative projects with employees of other major companies; their training was equivalent.
    As a geological exploration specialist, I worked with other Ph. D graduates- in my own group one from London Univ. and one from Utrecht; my own from a Big Ten University. Our technicians were 2-4 year program graduates of approved technical schools.

    I hesitate to sort out blame- but the decision-makers, often econonics-finance-business graduates as well as the Board- sometimes take short-cuts to reduce expenses or to maximize profits (which could be for me, my next-door neighbor, employees, my daughter's teacher's pension fund, etc.- and we all want more).

    I also blame the regulatory agency of the government, MMS, which allowed short-cuts on this and several other BP wells which were breaking new ground, and hence should have been required to have the best and latest (but even that may have been not enough in this case).


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 13 May 10 - 09:59 PM

    Has anything been learned?

    "It has yet to announce plans to drill in the region but shortly before the U.S. disaster, BP and other oil companies urged Canadian regulators to drop a requirement stipulating that companies operating in the Arctic had to drill relief wells in the same season as the primary well.

    Cullen argued the companies had made this request because drilling a relief well within the required time limit would be too expensive, given the difficult Arctic conditions".

    Full story:
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1326556220100513?type=marketsNews


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 14 May 10 - 12:54 AM

    That was then, Q, but this is now. Do the oil companies still employ most of their workers, or have they followed the corporate ethics changes of the 1990s and contracted out most of the work.

    You're right that once upon a time, oil companies were very good in their treatment of employees, and reasonably good employees could count on having a lifelong career and good benefits and a good pension. But corporate ethics began to chance in the 1980s. By the mid-1990s, corporations no longer seemed to have any loyalty toward employees - and I found out the hard way that my employer, the U.S. Government, no longer had loyalty to me as an employee. Nowadays, corporations and the government have loyalty only to their management personnel.

    -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 14 May 10 - 03:37 AM

    The speeches that I heard were attacks on BP ("British Petroleum"). They were by Americans. The faults were the faults of the subcontractors. The subcontractors were American, but not attacked in the speeches.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 14 May 10 - 03:58 AM

    BP shows their ownership as 39% US, 44% UK. Since UK-US ownership is almost equal, it would seem not to be an insult to Britain for a US President to criticize the company.

    This article says
      Congress called BP and its drilling partners to account Tuesday for a "cascade of failures" behind the spreading Gulf oil spill, zeroing in on a crucial chain of events at the deep-sea wellhead just before an explosion consumed the rig and set off the catastrophic rupture.
      In back-to-back Senate inquiries, lawmakers chastised executives of the three companies at the heart of the massive spill over attempts to shift the blame to each other. And they were asked to explain why better preparations had not been made to head off the accident.

      "Let me be really clear," Lamar McKay, chairman of BP America, told the hearing. "Liability, blame, fault – put it over here." He said: "Our obligation is to deal with the spill, clean it up and make sure the impacts of that spill are compensated, and we're going to do that."

      By "over here," McKay meant the witness table at which BP, Transocean and Halliburton executives sat shoulder to shoulder. And despite his acknowledgment of responsibility, each company defended its own operations and raised questions about its partners in the project gone awry.


    Seems to me, Richard, that all three companies acknowledge their responsibility. Why can't you?

    -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Dave the Gnome
    Date: 14 May 10 - 04:20 AM

    On my various visits to rural Illinois and Urban St Louis I have been led to believe that BP was not seein a British company anyway - This was mainly from my Cousin who is an ex-pat British national since 1962. He did back up his claim by asking some friends what they believed BP stood for and 100% of the half dozen said 'Better Petrolium'. Now, I know 6 or 7 is not representative of the US. Neither is the Mudcat but I ask here whether anyone else thought it was British.

    If the general population and/or the politicians in question do not see BP as British I think it hardly fair to say that they are bigoted againts the British. Not saying thta your are wrong, Richard. Just it is possible that you may be misplacing your ire!

    Cheers

    DeG


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Stu
    Date: 14 May 10 - 04:23 AM

    I agree with Joe - I really don't see why anyone's a bigot or why BP shouldn't be blamed. Why would it be insult for Obama to criticise? As far as I'm concerned he's bang on the money.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 14 May 10 - 06:13 AM

    We have a disaster of major proportions here and we have a right to be pissed off!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 14 May 10 - 07:50 AM

    i...t is OUR coastline they are destroying...

    Actually, Kendall, its our coastline WE are destroying by permitting off-shore drilling without the technology to prevent this sort of thing.
    Never should have been allowed in the firt place.

    A classic case of "We have met the enemy, and he is us".


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 14 May 10 - 09:02 AM

    Be pissed off with the people at fault.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 14 May 10 - 11:30 AM

    We are. Big oil no matter who they are or where they are trying to hide.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 14 May 10 - 01:10 PM

    Joe, Alberta requirements-
    Alberta requirements for drilling rig technicians-
    (applies whether hired by oil company doing the drilling or registered contractor)

    Rig technician 1- must be registered apprentice,certified journeyman (journeyperson in AB Occupational profiles), or holds a recognized trades certificate. Base pay $27.50/hr. plus living allowance.
    Rig technician 3- the driller- 3 years experience minimum, trade school diploma or equivalent. Base pay $38.50/hr. plus living allowance.

    A professional engineer is in charge of the field, and makes daily visits to a drilling well- often staying on site during critical intervals.
    A geologist (analyzes samples, etc.) may be on site for critical wells, but usually receives samples sent to him daily.

    Back-up- With major companies, professionals in Exploration Division and research personnel at a central laboratory.

    Lowest rung on the well- Leasehands, floorhands, motorhands; usually highschool level. Do the 'joe-work' around the rig. Pay $27.50/hr. plus living allowance (may be bunk and mess hall food, while the driller gets a house or trailer home, a car, etc.).

    On an offshore rig, the crews are professional technicians, a professional engineer, and rig crew of the rig owner, that takes care of everything not directly related to the well itself.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Tootler
    Date: 14 May 10 - 05:29 PM

    By the mid-1990s, corporations no longer seemed to have any loyalty toward employees

    Very true. I was a lecturer in a Chemical Engineering department at that time. In the late 1980s, the big chemical companies started putting graduates on six or twelve month rolling contracts rather than employing them on a permanent basis. A local senior manager of a major company complained bitterly that recent graduates showed no loyalty to the company and was most put out when a colleague of mine said he wasn't surprised when they, as employers, were showing no loyalty to their employees. Loyalty is a two way thing and if you are not loyal to your employees, why should they be loyal to you?

    My daughter experienced the rolling contract business at first hand and eventually got fed up and left her employer, a major chemical company, and went to train as a teacher. She said that about a third of her intake were from industry and many had similar experiences to her.

    While the examples I have first hand knowledge of are from the chemical industry, I have no reason to doubt that the oil industry behaved in a similar manner.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 14 May 10 - 05:47 PM

    BP had a responsibility to make sure their subcontractors were doing the work right. If they can't do that, they have no business hiring subcontractors. Holding their feet to the fire has to do with their corporate responsibility and nothing to do with what nation they represent or used to be owned by or whatever. Are you saying that if they were a wholly-American-owned company, they would not be coming in for criticism? What is your evidence for this? We held Exxon responsible for the Valdez spill, and they were majority American. You're taking offense where none exists. Playing the pond card.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 14 May 10 - 09:43 PM

    Seems to me that the word "Bigot" is out of place here.
    No one is allowed to trash Brits in my house.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 14 May 10 - 10:18 PM

    The word was unnecessary, RB got hot under the collar about some derogatory statements about BP in Congress, but the senators did nothing more than make a lot of noise. Par for the course.
    But perhaps some legislation to strengthen the MMS and other regulators and place restrictions on drilling in sensitive areas will result, as least I hope so.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 15 May 10 - 12:40 AM

    What do senators do besides accepting bribes from big business, and making a lot of noise?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: GUEST,Goose Gander
    Date: 15 May 10 - 01:56 AM

    So now it's bigotry to get mad at an oil company for a spill? Richard Bridge, you are beyond parody. My dog has more common sense than you.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 15 May 10 - 02:50 AM

    Q, the Alberta wages sound similar to the pay for oil well workers in Bakersfield. But the work is extremely hard, and it's rare for an oil worker to work steadily. It's a tough life - and it results in lots of alcohol and spousal abuse, and lots of financial problems.
    -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Backwoodsman
    Date: 15 May 10 - 04:31 AM

    "No one is allowed to trash Brits in my house"

    LOL! I should hope not!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 15 May 10 - 05:11 AM

    The relevant point about subcontractors is that you subcontract to them. Therefore in classic tort theory a hirer is not ipso facto liable for the negligence of his subcontractor, although he is liable in negligence if the choice of subcontractor was negligent. Vicarious liability only arises if the negligent worker is an employee acting in the course of his employment.

    Example 1. You engage a chimney sweep to sweep your chimney in your semi-detached house. He ses the chimney is badly sooted and decides to do a draught test with lighted paper. The lighted paper goes up the chimney (showing good draught) but sets light to a deposit of soot which burns both your house and your neighbour's house down. Assuming that doing the draught test before sweeping was itself negligent, the sweep is liable to you and to your neighbour for his negligence, but you are not liable to your neighbour in negligence unless engaging that subcontractor was negligent.

    Example 2. You employ an employee to deliver a lorryload of stuff. It is your lorry. He takes the lorryload of stuff home with him overnight to make the delivery the next day. At 11pm he decides he wants a kebab and drives the lorry to the kebab shop but runs over a nun on a zebra crossing. You are not liable to the nun for his negligent driving for he was not acting in the course of his employment.

    Exapmple 3. You employ an employee as before. He collects your lorry and load at 11 am and while driving by the correct route tomake the delivery he runs over another nun on a zebra crossing. You are liable for his negligence in the course of his employment.

    Both Transocean and Halliburton were subcontractors. BP (widely and correctly referred to in reports as "London-based BP") is quite correct to seek to place blame for their failures on them. Barack Obama as a lawyer should appreciate that, and his criticisms of "a "ridiculous spectacle" of publicly trading blame over the accident" are out of place and must I think be an attempt to play to the gallery of prejudice against "foreign corporations".

    Try to keep up at the back (that means you Goosey - you seem pretty ignorant).

    My original thread title still seems pretty accurate to me.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 15 May 10 - 06:39 AM

    I know it doesn't happen often but Richard Bridge on this is totally correct.

    Another couple of things from the way Barack Obama has "grandstanded" this one he has been reported as saying he will keep his foot on the neck of BP; he has been extremely vocal in insisting and making sure that BP will pay.

    Now from what I have seen, heard and read:

    BP has always accepted responsibility as the Operator Company, it has never said anything else.

    Now whether through contractual means or through insurances BP can in turn recoup some of those costs from Transocean and halliburton that is a completely separate matter. But Obama does not have to keep his foot on anybodys neck, as he first must remove it from his mouth.

    BP has always stated very clearly that it will pay any legitimate claim for compensation and for the clean up, it has never said anything to the contrary

    Oh Kendall as one of the oldest international oil companies in the world and the independent that produces more oil than any of the others, BP's safety record is pretty good considering the scale of its operations. Its other claim to fame is that no other oil company is better at finding oil than BP, in its history it has found more "Elephants" than any other oil company.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 15 May 10 - 07:04 AM

    They are still motivated by profit first and safety second.
    So, in this case I am with the President.

    Was it Shakespere who said in a perfect world the first thing to do is kill the lawyers? He never mentioned oil company CEOs.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: steve in ottawa
    Date: 15 May 10 - 07:06 AM

    I think Richard Bridge has touched on a bit of truth.

    I say this because when Continental Connection Flight 3407 went down near Buffalo, NY in Feb 2009 the U.S. media quickly jumped on the bandwagon of solely blaming the sub-contractor, Colgan Air, even though all the passengers had bought their tickets through Continental and most probably would not have known, even after boarding, that they were not flying on a Continental plane, or that the air crew was not Continental trained, certified, or even monitored, and that Continental would claim not to accept any liability for the crash of the plane. I remember hearing "commuter airline" over and over. Even here in Canada. Which is disturbing.

    I think calling the disaster the BRITISH Petroleum Oil Spill rather than the Gulf of Mexico Oil Spill, or the Offshore Deep-Sea Drilling Disaster is re-assuring to most Americans. Mainstream news media seem to like to alarm and then reassure people to the point where they probably won't take any action.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: stallion
    Date: 15 May 10 - 07:15 AM

    All this piss and wind! I have read most of this thread (got tedious) but I do think the spill is an envioronmental disaster and the book is getting passed around like a red hot potato. Of course BP is a multinational tax dodging money grabbing company and, apart from who is going to pick up the tab, ultimately people will want to know how it was allowed to happen. It has happened on the US politicians patch/watch and people will want to know if they were regulating the operation. To claim it was a foriegn company and out of their regulatory authority would be a good way of externalising blame and stop the shit sticking to their coat and also keep Joe public devided vertically. A sort of fascism, blaming a group or another country for ones own ills to focus the attention away from the real problem that large multi national institutions are above natural law of any country, see money as the godhead and, apart from the chosen few, the rest of us are flotsam and jetsom with a vote that means bugger all in the real world. How else could a handful of banks bring the whole world economy to it's knees? A world problem requires a world government, in your dreams.........divide and rule is the mantra......drifting thread here, but it isn't bigotry it's self preservation! And forget about nation states and consider the state of it's peoples


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 15 May 10 - 07:43 AM

    FFS! It happened because the two subcontractors screwed up. Many in the US are trying to outsource the blame presumably to make themselves more comfortable with being the world's number 1 polluter - and of course the inventor of "big oil" - and for permitting drilling and plenty of other energy extraction exploits in sensitive places - primarily to feed the world's number 1 energy (particularly petroleum product) user.   

    US - this happened because of you. Don't even think of sending a gunboat.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 15 May 10 - 09:21 AM

    BP now means 'Beyond Petroleum', as they are no longer British, and are as much US as any global multi-company. They likely absorbed as more US firms as their original British base....a very long time ago.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 15 May 10 - 09:36 AM

    I think the word 'bigot' is thrown around way too loosely..and very ignorantly. The U.S. is not bigoted towards the British, therefore the title of this thread is too stupid to even comment on.

    Richard, wake up, and get a life!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 15 May 10 - 11:38 AM

    Both Transocean and Halliburton were subcontractors. BP (widely and correctly referred to in reports as "London-based BP") is quite correct to seek to place blame for their failures on them. Barack Obama as a lawyer should appreciate that, and his criticisms of "a "ridiculous spectacle" of publicly trading blame over the accident" are out of place and must I think be an attempt to play to the gallery of prejudice against "foreign corporations".

    I was with you right up till the point you brought in "foreign coprorations" because it's a total and complete non sequitur. It could be he's playing to the gallery of people mad about the spill, and BP being the most prominent name (and one most people know). I think that's far more likely. At any rate nothing in your explanation has anything to do with foreignness until your conclusion. Which therefore does not follow.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 15 May 10 - 01:31 PM

    Haliburton and Cameron were contracted for this well by BP (the former often used by them for over half a century.
    The subcontractors follow specifications laid down by the operating company. It seems BP did not require the most advanced methods offered by Cameron.

    I don't know about Cameron, but Haliburton has offered careful service by excellent technicians to many companies over their long history. The BP executive may live to regret his comments to the Congressional Committee; he cannot be sued, however, because comments to a legislative body by are not actionable. I am sure that he will not repeat the remark outside of a protected 'venue'.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: GUEST,Goose Gander
    Date: 15 May 10 - 02:27 PM

    My academic background is in history. When doing original research, I prefer to go to primary sources. Reading over President Obama's comments regarding the spill, I am at loss to find anything remotely close to bigotry, at least as I understand the word. Perhaps Mr. Bridge can cite an example from the speech in question.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,kendall
    Date: 15 May 10 - 03:32 PM

    I am against greed and sloppiness no matter who is to blame. There are plenty of "Brown sandwiches" to go around.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 15 May 10 - 05:01 PM

    Evidently your academia, goosey, does not include reading or understanding. The idea that British Petroleum (based in London) are to blame for their subcontractors' failures cannot (as I have demonstrated above) rationally be supported. Therefore it is irrationally derived.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: GUEST,Goose Gander
    Date: 15 May 10 - 05:12 PM

    Please, Richard, could you provide us with the remarks from Obama that constitute bigotry?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 15 May 10 - 05:29 PM

    The substratum that is bigoted. Not the substratum of the drilling area, but of the commentary. Doh!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 15 May 10 - 05:35 PM

    "not appreciate what I considered to be the ridiculous spectacle" of executives from BP, Transocean, the rig owner, and Halliburton, supplier of a cement pipeline plug, "falling over each other to point the fingers of blame at somebody else" in testimony before Congress earlier this week. "I will not tolerate more fingerpointing or irresponsibility," he said sternly. "There is enough responsibility to go around, and all parties should be willing to accept it."

    For a lawyer that is bollocks. Whose systems failed? Those of the US companies. Liability is a legal concept. The editor of the Harvard Law review cannot understand that?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: catspaw49
    Date: 15 May 10 - 05:42 PM

    Is it BP rig? Does BP own the oil coming from the well? Did BP, through whatever means, build the platform? They did not have to accept the work done if it did not meet the criteria set forth.

    While there are many involved, the ultimate responsibility is with BP......or as Greg points out, all of us for allowing this type of thing to take place.


    Spaw


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Donuel
    Date: 15 May 10 - 06:05 PM

    BP address for North America is
    28100 Torch Pkwy
    Ste 300
    Warrenville, IL 60555

    (630) 836-5000

    yep it really is Torch Parkway.

    For UK it is James St. London and there is a new THK BP headquaters in Moscow.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: GUEST,Goose Gander
    Date: 15 May 10 - 06:23 PM

    Really, Richard, is that the best you can do? The degree to which BP may or may not share responsibility with other parties is something for the courts to work out, but "the substratum that is bigoted."?! Maybe you could define what you mean when you use the term 'bigot'.

    And what does the physical location of BP's corporate offices have to do with responsibility for the spill?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 15 May 10 - 06:32 PM

    Plainly the attack by US politicians on British Petroleum (of London) is because it is not a US company. BP is for the reasons I have set out above not liable for the spill. The attempt to cause it to pay for the faults of US companies is based on nationhood. It is bigotry.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: catspaw49
    Date: 15 May 10 - 06:37 PM

    Oh horseshit.............As I recall the government went after Exxon and if this were a rig owned by Shell or someone else then they would go after them. No one here gives two runny shits where BP is based.

    Christ Richard, give it a break1   Your xenophobia is showing..........

    Spaw


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: GUEST,Goose Gander
    Date: 15 May 10 - 06:48 PM

    Richard, please read your own posts. Obama did not merely blame BP, he made it a point that he felt there was plenty of blame to go around, including but limited to BP. Anyway, BP is a multinational corporation. They're about as 'British' as Exxon is 'American'. You get the Humpty-Dumpty award for debasement of language with your whining about "bigotry".

    I would still like to know what the physical location of BP's offices has to do with responsibility for the spill.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 15 May 10 - 09:26 PM

    Plainly the attack by US politicians on British Petroleum (of London) is because it is not a US company.

    It's only plain to you. There's nothing in what Obama said that has anything to do with nationalism. As everybody else but you has said, if it has been Shell or Exxon or Texaco, the stink would still smell the same and Obama would have said the exact same thing. You've got a bee in your bonnet and it's making your brain misfire.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 15 May 10 - 09:33 PM

    Methinks the bigotry also roosts on the European side of the pond.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: steve in ottawa
    Date: 15 May 10 - 09:39 PM

    Richard said: Evidently your academia, goosey, does not include reading or understanding. The idea that British Petroleum (based in London) are to blame for their subcontractors' failures cannot (as I have demonstrated above) rationally be supported. Therefore it is irrationally derived.

    Wow.

    Time to shut this thread down?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 15 May 10 - 10:11 PM

    They are not to blame, maybe, but they are ultimately both responsible and accountable.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: bobad
    Date: 15 May 10 - 10:31 PM

    Words like blame and responsibility strike me as being moral terms whereas liability sounds like a legal term to me. I would think that a contractor is liable for the work of his sub-contractors but then I am not a lawyer.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 15 May 10 - 10:41 PM

    Assumption by Bobad- the work of the subcontractors was faulty.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: bobad
    Date: 15 May 10 - 11:06 PM

    Q, I made no such assumption, the only assumption I did make was that a contractor is liable for the work of his sub-contractors.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 15 May 10 - 11:23 PM

    Hey, Shit happens!.....Only idiots get their knickers in a twist with such stupid crap, like playing the 'blame game'!

    Richard. you think that Americans are bigoted?..Then hang out with your own crowd of geeks! If you're saying Obumbler is pissed at the Brits, or Bp,..so what? Most Americans think he's full of shit anyway! Just a few loudmouths, on here, lick his boots!

    Give it a rest!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 16 May 10 - 05:02 AM

    They (BP presumably) are still motivated by profit first and safety second.

    Ever worked for them Kendall?

    I did back in the 1990's. Before awarding major contracts the Bid evaluation teams were always briefed as follows:

    Technical Evaluation - Assess each bid; evaluate technical compliance with the ITT and competence to perform the work; evaluate that proposed equipment and method statements are "fir for purpose".

    Financial Evaluation - Keep it foremost in your minds when evaluating prces quoted The Contractor Must Make a Profit if he has trimmed his price too tight it may tempt him to cut corners and that acts against our best interests in significant ways:

    Safety;
    We have to increase our minitoring role;
    Mistakes may be made which will cost us time, money and resources to rectify;
    Any such delays may affect First Production.

    BP is an Operating Company and as such THEY ARE responsible for whatever happens in their Licence Areas. Having said that, they issue to the Licencing Authorities (In the UK that would be the Department of Energy and the HSE) for review, comment and approval details of exactly what they intend doing. In this case US Authorities would have known and would have looked at the designs of the Temporary Guide Base; the casing depths and cementation; the drilling programme; the BOP and the Well the Production Manifold that would eventually be installed.

    For many, many years now HAZID's; HAZOP's and Risk Assessments have been undertaken before any Operation is allowed to proceed. It will be a simple matter to establish it that was the case with this well.

    They are still motivated by profit first and safety second.

    Have you ever worked for Haliburton Kendall? I have experience of working for them directly and as a sub-contractor, I have also in turn had them working for me, and guess what Kendall as far as the driving force behind Haliburton goes you are spot on. Of the two BP were a "Flagship" Company that set standards; Haliburton (Or at least the parts of it I had to deal with) in comparison were "cowboys" who would cut every corner they could to maximise their profit.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 16 May 10 - 06:11 AM

    No. I have never worked for Halliburton or BP. So what? I didn't sail with Columbus either but I know the world is round!
    BP has a shitty record.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,woodsie
    Date: 16 May 10 - 06:23 AM

    I don't see why I should have a reduced pension to clean up fucking Amarican's problem! Incompetent big mouthed American's caused this shit the same as they are fucking up the whole planet! Let them rot in their own polution.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 16 May 10 - 06:50 AM

    Compared to many others in the oil industry world wide Kendall its damn near spotless, but then knowing nothing of how they operate you couldn't have a fuckin' clue what you are talking about. Mind you you could be one of the many gullible fools how believe everything they read so long as it matches their own prejudices.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 16 May 10 - 12:20 PM

    ...most Americans think he's full of shit ...
    The latest poll disagrees. 69% like him, 51% think he is doing a good job.

    Look, I don't give a rats ass who is to blame! What is being done about it, that's what's important to me.

    woodsie, how is an oil spill going to cause you a reduction in your pension? And how is that Our fault? Are we paying your pension?

    You are entitled to your opinion even if it makes no sense.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 16 May 10 - 12:36 PM

    The policy briefly noted by Teribus is general among established oil companies; bad practice and bad publicity hurt profits and cause stockholders to sell their stock.

    Regulatory bodies (MMS in U. S. waters, regardless of registered company offices elsewhere) set the limits.
    It seems that the requirements in this case were inadequate, but drilling to a deep target in deep water, especially a large target with high formation pressure (unpredictable, but always possible) is not a stroll through the park.

    The operating company selects subcontractors who do work not performed by the operator; those selected must have a good record but the cost also is a consideration. As noted, Haliburton is one of the two foremost for the services offered.

    I really can't comment on Haliburton's current status; when I was working with petroleum exploration, they were highly thought of. Since their link with KBR, now broken and Haliburton's return to its original role, their ability may have suffered- I don't know- but they are accepted as competent by BP and other petroleum exploration companies world-wide. They are considered one of the best for the procedures they are hired to do, especially in deep water.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 16 May 10 - 01:24 PM

    I agree with Kendall.

    It doesn't matter who's fault it is, it needs to get sorted first, then look at how the cost is disipated.

    It is a disaster and everybody that has the skill from wherever, should be employed to sort the problem out.

    If there is a disaster, like an earthquake, people from all around the globe, donate funds to get things sorted.

    Why can't that be the same with this. It might be the Americans problem, but in reality it is a world problem. We all need to pull together. Who knows where the next disaster occurs.

    IMHO we should pull together instead of taking a stance.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 16 May 10 - 02:00 PM

    To imply that because I have never worked for an oil company and don't know how they operate makes my opinion that of a gullible fool is silly.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 16 May 10 - 02:18 PM

    kendall: "The latest poll disagrees. 69% like him, 51% think he is doing a good job."

    ...according to the 'Amos and liberal left' poll! You need to check your facts better!..I mean, if facts are relevant to the ideologues, any more!

    Arthur itus: "I agree with Kendall.
    It doesn't matter who's fault it is, it needs to get sorted first, then look at how the cost is dissipated."

    ..and I agree with you and kendall, on that one!

    Personally, I think there must a way to utilize the oil coming up..but, I can't speak to that, as much, because that's up to the more knowledgeable, in that area.

    By the way, Arthur itus, great name there!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 16 May 10 - 03:38 PM

    Guest GFS said
    By the way, Arthur itus, great name there!


    Thanks but my knees don't like it :-)


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 16 May 10 - 03:47 PM

    To me, this was a responsible part of Obama's statement, and it is one that he is responsible for, as USA President:

    "For too long, for a decade or more, there has been a cozy relationship between the oil companies and the federal agency that permits them to drill. It seems as if permits were too often issued based on little more than assurances of safety from the oil companies. That cannot and will not happen anymore. To borrow an old phrase, we will trust, but we will verify. Now, from the day he took office as Interior Secretary, Ken Salazar has recognized these problems and he's worked to solve them. Oftentimes he has been slammed by the industry, suggesting that somehow these necessary reforms would impede economic growth. Well, as I just told Ken, we are going to keep on, going to do what needs to be done. And so I've asked Secretary Salazar to conduct a top-to-bottom reform of the Minerals Management Service. This week, he announced that the part of the agency which permits oil and gas drilling and collects royalties will be separated from the part of the agency in charge of inspecting the safety of oil rigs and platforms and enforcing the law. That way, there's no conflict of interest, real or perceived. We've also ordered immediate inspections of all deepwater operations in the Gulf of Mexico. And we've announced that no permits for drilling new wells will go forward until the 30-day safety and environmental review that I requested is completed. We're also closing the loophole that has allowed some oil companies to bypass some critical environmental reviews, and today we're announcing a new examination of the environmental procedures for oil and gas exploration and development.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 16 May 10 - 04:02 PM

    An update

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8685368.stm


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 16 May 10 - 04:06 PM

    I received a complaint about an oil spill thread, but the person didn't say which oil spill thread - two of the three have been quite nasty, and I see that woodsie's post here is a bit ripe.
    So, let me just say:

    If you kids don't stop it right now, I'll......



    'Nuff said. And now, back to our program.

    -Joe Offer-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 16 May 10 - 04:51 PM

    There was an interesting article in yesterday's paper saying that this spill could make its way out of the gulf and into the Gulf Stream!
    Ok, when the tar balls start washing up on the shores of "Old Blighty" we will see if you folks over the5rte sing a different song!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 16 May 10 - 04:54 PM

    Guest from Sanity, what facts are you talking about? Sarah Palin's? Rush Limbaugh's? Your own?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 16 May 10 - 05:09 PM

    An interesting pair of news stories:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/may/16/gulf-oil-spill-bp



    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/13/bp-boss-admits-mistakes-gulf-oil-spill


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 16 May 10 - 06:02 PM

    Yes, Kendall, the oil could enter the Gulf Loop Current and from there into the Gulf Stream, discussed with links in the Oil spill thread which has disappeared from the current 'below the belt' list.
    That is always a problem when someone goes off at a tangent and starts their own peeve thread. Joe has linked the other two threads at the top of this one.

    So far, winds and currents have kept the spill (really a gusher, spewing out the oil under high pressure) in an area suoth of the Louisiana Mississippi Delta.

    Some progress has been made and part of the oil is being collected and piped to a tanker, but only part- and entry into the Gulf Stream is still a possibility. The damage, if that happens, will be to East Coast U. S. and maritime Canada, but of course some 'tar balls' would continue up the Gulf Stream to Europe.

    The main hope for stopping the flow is the relief well, which will not intercept the old well for some two months- and we must hope that will work. There are no guarantees that it will.

    Interesting sidelight- US law limits the damages to $75 million, but I am sure law suits will continue for some time.
    Somewhere along the line, suit will be brought against the US for the failure of their regulator, MMS to require full compliance by the operator.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 16 May 10 - 06:44 PM

    Q

    It is very unlikely that the Gulf of Mexico oil spill would impact Maritime Canada and the north eastern USA because the Gulf Stream moves east away from the coast as it moves northward (and, eastward towards Iceland and Europe. By the time the Gulf Stream is off Canada's east coast it is abour 400 nautical miles west of the coastline. Also, the prevailing currents along the Canadian Continental Shelf, off eastern Canada, flow south (part of the Labrador current). The southward flow, I suspect, would be prevailing throughout the Gulf of Maine to Cape Cod.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 16 May 10 - 08:30 PM

    Ed T, the mention of Maritime Canada came from a news item, so often incorrect.
    It does impact the Grand Banks, but at that distance, only some tar balls would be expected.

    Map of the flows predicted off the east coast of N. Am.:
    Oil spill and gulf stream currents

    The NOAA maps seem offline at the moment; they would be more accurate.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Bobert
    Date: 16 May 10 - 08:36 PM

    Joe,

    If people want to complain about threads that deal with the largest ecological disaster in our times then tell them stay above the line... This is one heck of a messed up situation and to pull the plug on any of it because someone thinks it ain'ty worth talkin' about is irresponsible... Tell 'um from me to "Bite me"... I mean, we let the threads go during the run-up to the Iraq War and on a different level this is, fir these times, perhaps as important...

    B~


      I wasn't considering shutting anything down. I thought a little semi-comical scolding was all that was needed to settle things down...and they did.
      -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 16 May 10 - 08:51 PM

    Maybe the information in the attached report is isolated or not related to this case.
    But, could it be part of reasons for the changes that Obama indicated were needed?



    http://www.doioig.gov/upload/Smith%20REDACTED%20FINAL_080708%20Final%20with%20transmittal%209_10%20date.pdf


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 16 May 10 - 09:35 PM

    Thanks, Ed T. The gist has been reported in NY Times, etc., but it is good to see the entire document. It answers some of the questions that came to my mind when I read the news items.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 16 May 10 - 11:09 PM

    The 60 Minutes report (see Spill Baby Spill thread) seems to substantiate charges of almost criminal level against BP. The report appalled me.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,kendall
    Date: 17 May 10 - 07:49 AM

    Mike Williams, the Electronics chief had quite a story to tell. He's lucky to be alive.

    BP was also responsible for the fire at the Texas refinery a few years ago. They were fined a huge amount of money. Don't tell me they have a great safety record!

    Bobert, this thread is certainly worth having but the name calling and other insults are not.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Backwoodsman
    Date: 17 May 10 - 08:11 AM

    "Bobert, this thread is certainly worth having but the name calling and other insults are not."

    Correct.
    Bobert - we in the UK have had many tragedies of this kind. The North Sea (the stretch of water between the UK and Belgium/Holland/Denmark/Scandianavia) is one of the most dangerous seas in the world and is full of oil- and gas-rigs. A number have been lost in deadful accidents. Google 'Piper Alpha' - just one of them, where 170 or so men perished.
    We've had a number of huge spills too, from tankers wrecked on the British coastline in some of the most beautiful and wild-life-rich areas. Google 'Sea Empress' or 'The Braer Disaster'.
    We know what a 'tragedy' is.
    The US has our sympathy.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Bobert
    Date: 17 May 10 - 08:56 AM

    Well, I ain't called anyone any names... Might of fact, I was kinda late to this thread and maybe missed some of the name callin' but, hey...

    ...seein' as I've had a lot of names hurled in my direction over the years I might be so desensitized that I don't realize it when folks are doin' it??? I donno???

    What I do know is that if the "60 Minutes" report turns out to be true then BP is in some deep poo...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Songbob
    Date: 17 May 10 - 12:38 PM

    The speeches that I heard were attacks on BP ("British Petroleum"). They were by Americans. The faults were the faults of the subcontractors. The subcontractors were American, but not attacked in the speeches."


    Jesus Christ! You're basing all this too-sensitive BS on Congressional speeches? Would you react to the catcalls heard during "Question Time" the same way? As the kids say, "Get a life."

    And your examples of non-responsibility (or non-liability, whichever) were not germane. If that sweep had used the draft test because you told him to make sure the sweep was necessary, in order to save costs, then the metaphor would be closer. BP is not a disinterested, non-technical homeowner requiring work on his house, but a full-blown part of the team, and by telling the US subcontractors what to do, and largely how to do it, BP is responsible.

    And honestly, I wish they were British -- it'd be easier to extract compensation than from a multinational corporation. We could just trim the "fat" from any "aid" we send you.

    Bob


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 17 May 10 - 02:06 PM

    The U. S. would never do it to a British-registered corporation, but in another thread I suggested that BP assets in the US be frozen.
    Might help some in getting compensation.

    I was hoping CNN would pick up the Mike Williams story, but not a peep on their TV reports.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,kendall
    Date: 17 May 10 - 03:05 PM

    Remember when FDR froze Japans assets? They declared war on us.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 17 May 10 - 03:25 PM

    Gee, Kendall, would the British get to burn the White House again?
    The U. S. froze Japans assets July 25, 1941. Pearl Harbor attacked December 7.
    (Digression, but I had to refresh my memory)


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 17 May 10 - 04:12 PM

    It was pretty obvious at the time that Japan was hell-bent on conquering the world, starting with China. They were allied with Germany and Italy and were regarded as (and consider themselves to be) one of the Axis Powers.

    New York Times, July 26, 1941.
    In view of the unlimited national emergency declared by the President, he has today issued an Executive Order freezing Japanese assets in the United States in the same manner in which assets of various European countries were frozen on June 14, 1941. This measure, in effect, brings all financial and import and export trade transactions in which Japanese interests are involved under the control of the government, and imposes criminal penalties for violation of the order.

    This Executive Order, just as the order of June 14, 1941, is designed among other things to prevent the use of the financial facilities of the United States and trade between Japan and the United States in ways harmful to national defense and American interests, to prevent the liquidation in the United States of assets obtained by duress or conquest and to curb subversive activities in the United States.

    At the specific request of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, and for the purpose of helping the Chinese Government, the President has, at the same time, extended the freezing control to Chinese assets in the United States. The administration of the licensing system with respect to Chinese assets will be conducted with a view to strengthening the foreign trade and exchange position of the Chinese Government. The inclusion of China in the Executive Order, in accordance with the wishes of the Chinese Government, is a continuation of this government's policy of assisting China.
    FYI.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Kendall
    Date: 17 May 10 - 08:03 PM

    AND WHO DRAGGED THEM KICKING AND SCREAMING INTO THE 20TH CENTURY? Sorry about the caps.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Charley Noble
    Date: 17 May 10 - 09:07 PM

    Hmmmmm?

    How does one do CAPS on CAPS?

    Charley Noble


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Donuel
    Date: 17 May 10 - 09:40 PM

    BP is run by very greedy and extemely stupid short sighted men.

    This Sunday on CBS 60 minutes you will learn exactly why and how the oil diaster occured.

    BP argued to eliminate putting in the 3rd plug of drilling mud to seal the well with the weight of filling the pipe with mud.

    Halliburton argued that the well haed had broken due to an explosive gush of gas 2 months earlier so they did not know how much pressure was in the pipe since the valve had shattered and had come out the top of the pipe in pieces. With no way to know the pressure Halliburton argued that a total sealing of the pipe was necessary.

    BP said that filling the whole mile long pipe wioth mud would take too much time when they were ready to pump oil.

    BP won the arguement.

    This entire argument actually took place aboard the oil rig that blew up 3 hours later killing eleven people and set into motion a oil diaster that could spread across two oceans.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: dick greenhaus
    Date: 18 May 10 - 12:18 AM

    BP was named by Mother Jones Magazine as one of the "ten worst corporations" in both 2001 and 2005 based on its environmental and human rights records.[61][62] In 1991 BP was cited as the most polluting company in the US based on EPA toxic release data. BP has been charged with burning polluted gases at its Ohio refinery (for which it was fined $1.7 million), and in July 2000 BP paid a $10 million fine to the EPA for its management of its US refineries.[63] According to PIRG research, between January 1997 and March 1998, BP was responsible for 104 oil spills.[64] BP patented the Dracone Barge to aid in oil spill clean-ups across the world. [65]

    One of BP's largest refineries in the US exploded in March 2005 causing 15 deaths, injuring 180 people and forcing thousands of nearby residents to remain sheltered in their homes.[41] A large column filled with hydrocarbon overflowed to form a vapour cloud, which ignited. The explosion caused all the casualties and substantial damage to the rest of the plant. The incident came as the culmination of a series of less serious accidents at the refinery, and the engineering problems were not addressed by the management. Maintenance and safety at the plant had been cut as a cost-saving measure, the responsibility ultimately resting with executives in London.[42]

    The fall-out from the accident continues to cloud BP's corporate image because of the mismanagement at the plant. There have been several investigations of the disaster, the most recent being that from the U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board[43] which "offered a scathing assessment of the company." OSHA found "organizational and safety deficiencies at all levels of the BP Corporation" and said management failures could be traced from Texas to London.[41]

    The company pleaded guilty to a felony violation of the Clean Air Act, was fined $50 million, and sentenced to three years probation.

    On October 30, 2009, the US Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) fined BP an additional $87 million — the largest fine in OSHA history — for failing to correct safety hazards revealed in the 2005 explosion. Inspectors found 270 safety violations that had been previously cited but not fixed and 439 new violations. BP is appealing that fine.[41] [44]

    Seems to me that the US is being the one attacked.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 18 May 10 - 11:38 AM

    Texas City Refinery Incident:

    Some of the things that Dick did not mention. The Texas City refinery was built and operated by AMOCO, BP acquiring it as a running concern in 1998. Now the proposed modifications that could have prevented the explosion all pre-date 1998 (i.e. The modifications were turned down not by BP but by AMOCO)

    In 1998 how many AMOCO employees were changed out, or did the work-force remain in place?

    If the work-force remained in place then so would the work practices and safety culture. What did the OSHA reports on the Texas City refinery state about the place when AMOCO ran it?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: ollaimh
    Date: 18 May 10 - 12:21 PM

    i really begin to wonder if richard bridges has any education or even has read a book?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 18 May 10 - 12:36 PM

    Terribus- After 1998 BP had seven years in which to carry out upgrading on the refinery. They paid in lives and a felony fine.
    Other short-comings after 2005 were not corrected by 2009 when another fine was levied.
    Personnel hired originally by Amoco probably continued working after the BP takeover, but they were now supervised by BP and procedures were BP revised and approved.

    Although job loss would have been significant, perhaps the government regulatory body should have required closure of the plant until corrections were made.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 18 May 10 - 11:44 PM

    Operations to try to stop the flow are being directed from Houston, where engineers from BP, Halburton, Transocean and Exxon-Mobil are working together (NY Times, May 18).


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 19 May 10 - 12:18 AM

    Q I fully agree with what you say, and the points you make, none of which alters the validity of the points I made regarding AMOCO's management and maintenance regime, unless of course you are trying to say that everything was perfect with that refinery up until the second BP took it over in 1998, I hope not as, as a contention, it is ridiculous.

    AMOCO engineers have advised modifications and had specified new types of safety valves on the section of the plant that failed, when maintenace was done AMOCO fitted a direct change out of the equipment modifying and changing nothing. Now BP cannot be held responsible for that, OSHA must have been aware of and must have reviewed plant maintenance and raised no objection.

    At the time BP took over had OSHA given the plant a clean bill of health? I would rather think that it did have an operating licence. During turn-over BP would have worked closely with AMOCO but as personnel changes were few, if any, then what was done before would continue to be done, existing "company culture" would prevail irrespective. Completely different thing if everyone had been sacked and new people brought in.

    I worked for BP for four years as a contractor, I have worked for a number of other Operator Companies and can state by experience that without any shadow of a doubt that BP was best of the lot, but that was in the days BP had its own Engineering Department and shadowed absolutely everything that any supplier of services or equipment did from start to finish.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: dick greenhaus
    Date: 19 May 10 - 12:20 AM

    I hold no brief for AMOCO. I should point out, though, that the outfit (British, American, Swiss or Tonkinese)that makes the profit should be held responsible for the damage.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 19 May 10 - 11:06 AM

    Absolutely agree with you Dick and BP have never said anything else


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 May 10 - 02:13 PM

    What AMOCO did makes no never-mind. It was up to BP to bring the operation up to snuff after their purchase of the refinery back in 19 and 98.

    Some confusion about the tar balls on the Florida Keys. First announced that they came from the BP blowout but analysis showed otherwise.
    It is only a matter or time, however, until some of the oil gets into the Loop Current and into the passage between Florida and Cuba.

    Stray tar balls have been a frequent visitor to the Florida coast. I remember them from years ago (1950s). At the time they were blamed on ships releasing bilge, but I never saw this confirmed.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 19 May 10 - 02:29 PM

    So Q are you saying thet the Texas City Refinery was not up to snuff when it was sold?

    If it wasn't whose fault was that? Those selling or those buying?

    Could hardly be the latter could it?

    Now who was to tell them it wasn't up to snuff as you put it? What would tell the purchaser? Things like last OSHA audit/inspection? Review of maintenance records? Purchasers own audit/inspection? All would play a part. Now obviously the last OSHA inspection had thrown up nothing so no problem there. AMOCO's maintenance record would show that maintenance work was up to speed it would not necessarily tell BP that safety modifications suggested years before had not been implemented, the safety valve change out would detail just that it would not detail the modification or that the new type of valve recommended had not been fitted. Finally we come to BP's own inspection, now if OSHA had found nothing wrong why should BP have found something?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 May 10 - 04:59 PM

    Supposedly BP had the engineering know how to determine if they were buying a pig in a poke. Caveat emptor and all that.
    Moreover, a top to bottom inspection is supposedly ongoing in a facility of the complexity of a refinery. If BP had kept the plant in good condition, felony fines would not have been imposed on them.

    As noted by Dick Greenhouse, BP has a terrible operating record.

    And no report more damning than the one on the Gulf blowout aired on "60 Minutes" and linked in another thread:
    -
    60 Minutes


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 May 10 - 05:06 PM

    Link changed, but still found by googling 60 minutes oil spill.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 19 May 10 - 05:07 PM

    How long after a purchase can we stop blaming the previous owner and blame the new one for any problems? Two years? Five? Ten?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 19 May 10 - 06:02 PM

    Buy a used car, and on the way home get stopped and inspected. The fuel lines are corroded, the flexible brake pipe connectors at the wheels are frayed, and the car is judged dangerously unroadworthy.

    Now, you may be able to sue the seller later, but sure as hell you will pay the fines for the current condition.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 19 May 10 - 06:31 PM

    "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." —Anon


    "If you follow reason far enough it always leads to conclusions that are contrary to reason." —Samuel Butler


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 20 May 10 - 12:52 AM

    Q, sorry to drag you back to what you said and the point I picked you up on:

    What AMOCO did makes no never-mind. It was up to BP to bring the operation up to snuff after their purchase of the refinery back in 19 and 98.

    I asked if in stating that you considered that in 1998 the refinery needed bring up to snuff - you have not answered that, no matter I will do it for you. Off course it was up to snuff in 1998 at least officially, whether it was in fact is an a completely different question. The OSHA inspection and its outcome depend on many things one of them is the relationship between those doing the inspecting and those being inspected. Look at the Ohio Refinery Inspection for an example picked up on x number of points the visit to check that the work had been done BP was initially was found to be in full compliance, the inspectors turned their follow-up visit to check that work had been done into a second inspection and made other findings.

    The same people ran the Texas City refinery for BP that ran it for AMOCO therefore their management style, approach and culture remained very much in place. Points I made earlier were that the corner cutting and the ignoring of advice by engineers on site that led to accident all pre-dated BP coming on the scene by up to seven years in some cases. Now unless somebody informed BP of those things there is no way that BP could have discovered those things. The same people having had their advice and suggestions ignored and discarded to the same management are not going to offer that up again irrespective of what sign is hanging over the door.

    BP's safety record in the US where it has taken over the existing assets of US Oil companies acquired you say is bad, globally where it works in over 160 countries it is very good.

    It is quite right that they should be fined and brought to book, it is quite right that BP should pay the costs of the spill, and as I have stated before BP have never said anything else. President barack Obama is not forcing them or making them pay for anything that they have not already agreed to and stated clearly that they will pay for.

    The largest and deepest discovery of oil in the Gulf of Mexico is BP's. BP produces more oil and gas than any other Operator. Watch the price of your oil produced products go up on the cost of this spill, because BP, or any other Company in the same situation will do its best to recover what it loses.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 25 May 10 - 08:29 AM

    History repeats itself: BP had key role in Exxon Valdez disaster in Alaska

    By NOAKI SCHWARTZ, Associated Press

    Tuesday, May 25, 2010

    Since a busted oil well began spewing crude into the Gulf of Mexico a month ago, the catastrophe has constantly been measured against the 1989 Exxon Valdez disaster. The Alaska spill leaked nearly 11 million gallons of crude, killed countless wildlife and tarnished the owner of the damaged tanker, Exxon.

    Yet the leader of botched containment efforts in the critical hours after the tanker ran aground wasn't Exxon Mobil Corp. It was BP PLC, the same firm now fighting to plug the Gulf leak.

    BP owned a controlling interest in the Alaska oil industry consortium that was required to write a cleanup plan and respond to the spill two decades ago. It also supplied the top executive of the consortium, Alyeska Pipeline Service Co. Lawsuits and investigations that followed the Valdez disaster blamed both Exxon and Alyeska for a response that was bungled on many levels.

    People who had a front row seat to the Alaska spill tell The Associated Press that BP's actions in the Gulf suggest it hasn't changed much at all.

    Read more: http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=934410#ixzz0owmiTByQ


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: olddude
    Date: 25 May 10 - 08:57 AM

    it is a tactic all the big corporations try to use and I will say try for it doesn't wash for them. A few years ago the dog food companies poisoned a bunch of peoples dogs with sub standard foreign ingredients. their excuse was gee we just believed what the supplier told us .. we are not responsible, the Chinese supplier is. That didn't fly, they all got sued for millions. If you have your company name on it, if you make the profit, you are responsible. Like a Wal-mart. They don't make what they sell but they are sued if a product they sell harms someone. BP makes the money, they do the sales, It is their name on the rig. They are responsible, that is how it works. Now I believe this clean up will ultimately run into the billions , It always does, making the American taxpayer pay all but 27 million is absurd and isn't going to fly in congress or with the American people. A company any company is responsible for their product no matter who the sub contractor(s) are. Stay tuned it will get interesting. An a multi national company with assets in the US is not beyond the reach of fines or lawsuits.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 25 May 10 - 03:16 PM

    hellelo Ollimah? Can you read a name, or are you too busy resenting the English?

    Now, what was the quote in the papers just yesterday? Something like "we will push BP aside if we have to"?

    No prejudice there of course.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 25 May 10 - 04:22 PM

    Hayward, BP CEO- "We made a few little mistakes early on." "Very, very modest environmental impact". Statements quoted in the Guardian, My 13, 2010.

    Yes, we all would like to push BP aside. Anti-BP predjudice, but not anti-UK.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 25 May 10 - 06:31 PM

    Ah. Prejudice admitted. Thank you.

    I would also point out that if "60 minutes" is right, and if it was the groundbreaking disclosure that some say, then until those disclosures (if right) there was in fact no evidence against British Petroleum (as distinct from its American subcontractors) so any adverse conclusions or inferences against BP were based on prejudice.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: dick greenhaus
    Date: 25 May 10 - 08:57 PM

    Richard-
    For some years now, BP hasn't stood for British Petroleum (they prefer "beyond petroleum"). I'm not really sure that they qualify as a British Company. And it doesn't really matter.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 25 May 10 - 09:02 PM

    From Mike Williams statement-

    When first drilling down, a BP manager ordered a faster pace Due to the faster pace, the bottom of the well split open and the well had to be abandoned, costing BP millions.
    Pressure to get the job done was increased.
    A rig accident damaged the annular at the top of the blowout preventer. The crew sealed the pipe, but too much force was applied, and chunks of the rubber annular came up in the drilling fluid.
    The supervisor said it was no big deal.

    "There was apparently no way to know how much damage was done. When there was a meeting to discuss how they were going to seal the well. Williams said a manager from BP changed the process at the last minute and 'communication broke down'."

    So, in typical rash English fashion, "into the valley of death rode the 600."


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: catspaw49
    Date: 26 May 10 - 12:23 AM

    I don't give a rat's ass if BP is based on the fuckin' moon.....How can they not be at fault here and the company of primary responsibility?

    Gawdamn Mr. Bridge.......explain the bigot part. You're so stuffed shirt on this that your xenophobia is like a flare on a dark night. Come join the 21st Century.

    Spaw


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Neil D
    Date: 26 May 10 - 01:05 PM

    I don't understand how someone I've always thought was pretty liberal can be so quick to jump to the defense of the world's fourth largest corporation. A corporation that looks more and more culpable every day.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 26 May 10 - 01:21 PM

    A NY Times report today supports some of Mike Williams charges. It will be some time before the investigative committee reports, but it looks like a sloppy, careless crew were on the drill floor and mud control procedures were overridden by BP supervisor.

    Day 37 and no progress....


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: PoppaGator
    Date: 26 May 10 - 03:38 PM

    What's with Richard? He obviously harbors tremendous irrational anger, but I can't tell if it's based upon hatred of the US, blind loyalty to a multinational corporation, or extreme insecurity about being British.

    "...A corporation that looks more and more culpable every day." No foolin' ~ seems like every day's news reveals yet another coverup or outright lie.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 26 May 10 - 05:10 PM

    My anger is based on the fact that without any then evidence US pundits were queuing up to condemn the only company in the principal frame that was not wholly American - London based British Petroleum.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 26 May 10 - 05:13 PM

    What did they actually say, Richard? My guess is that if it was derogatory it had to do with BP's past record. And that, it seems to me, should be valid criticism.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 26 May 10 - 05:31 PM

    I'd say that WITH evidence they were queuing up to condemn the company that is in charge of the operation. If they were from the moon I think they'd still do so.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 26 May 10 - 05:54 PM

    Commentators on CNN and in the press are talking of a developing boycott of BP. This would hurt the little franchise owner more than BP.
    I have posted this in the other thread as well; think before you show your disapproval of BP operations in this particular way.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 26 May 10 - 07:31 PM

    Q - and everyone else - are you going to read Alice's link in the other thread where two oil men discuss what they believe is going on?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Songbob
    Date: 27 May 10 - 02:06 PM

    Richard, I will admit to being biased.

    Biased against incompetent, greedy motherfucking multi-national corporations who kill off the Goddamned Gulf of Mexico. Hell, you could say that BP is biased against Mexico, so they shat in their (Mexico's) Gulf. That statement is as factual and logical as any of the horse-shit you've been dropping here.

    Get a life! Congress blamed the guys at the top (you know, the ones making all the fucking money till their own incompetence and interference with their hired sub-contractors screwed up the well and stopped the flow of money into their pockets) and you bitched. Get over it.

    Bob


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 27 May 10 - 02:48 PM

    Ebbie, I discussed that in the other thread and added a link to John Hofmeister-Pozzi comments.

    Simmons is a banker.

    Pozzi has had engineering experience with Saudi Aramco and his company is active in service to several oil companies, hence is worth listening to. John Hofmeister is ex-president of Shell.

    Songbob, BP cut corners and expenses- it now looks like they used thinner pipe then called for. These decisions were made in the Houston office (all, or nearly all, Americans) and by the onboard supervisors (Again, salaried employees).
    Should the CEO and others in the head office have known about this? They probably did, but deferred to the managers on the spot.

    Tony Hayward, the BP CEO, is a 'boy wonder', who shot up the ladder like a rocket. His skills are in management, not in science or engineering. He is a delegator as far as local operations of BP are concerned. Perhaps he should have a better knowledge of exploration procedures, and exercise more control; I don't know. He is not coming across as a thinker in his comments on TV and to the press; he trys the minimize the effects of the disaster.

    Salary- $1 million pounds, bonus each year about $1 million pounds- I noted this in the thread with a less controversial title.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 27 May 10 - 05:12 PM

    My wife read that somebody is offering a t-shirt that says, "BP: Bringing Oil to America's Shores" (or something close to that). I think I may buy one.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 27 May 10 - 06:00 PM

    Well, I'm going to blame Transocean, Ltd.. It's the company that owned the drilling rig. It's incorporated in Switzerland and previously in the Cayman Islands.
    I never did trust a cayman. They have those big, wicked-looking teeth.
    Then again, this article puts the blame on BP-America (formerly AMOCO, formerly Standard Oil of Indiana), and for good reason.

    -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Charley Noble
    Date: 27 May 10 - 09:06 PM

    Richard-

    Here's more evidence of US bias toward BP, which I posted in a related thread:

    What I'm struck with is BP's track record for producing and refining oil (from ABC News this evening). They seem to have done quite well in terms of maximizing profit but by running risks in production, at least until the current ongoing disaster. Here's a sample of how they've operated compared with other major oil producers:

    "OSHA statistics show BP ran up 760 "egregious, willful" safety violations"

    This compares with less than 10 such incidents from any of the other major oil producers.

    This was an accident waiting to happen and unfortunately it did.

    "All the king's horses and all the king's men won't put the Gulf of Mexico together again."

    You may quote me.

    Feel free to crawl out from whatever rock you're hiding under to respond.

    Charley Noble


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Stringsinger
    Date: 27 May 10 - 09:33 PM

    MMS was controlled by the oil companies. It is a corrupt agency corrupted by those companies who wrote their regulatory rules.

    This has nothing to do with Britain. It has to do with a corrupt oil company as most of them are. Corporations own most countries, these days and control their governments.

    I don't care how much oil company technicians or executives are paid, they are still corrupt.

    The problem is that corporations have become the new fascism in most parts of the world.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 27 May 10 - 11:59 PM

    Um, Charley, if BP is egregiously out of regulation with hazardous conditions compared to other oil companies, in what way is it anti-British to point this out? Should we kid-glove the British because they're too delicate to play with the big boys? I think that's more anti-British than letting the chips fall where they may. Pull up your big-boy pants and admit with the rest of the world that BP fucked up royal.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Charley Noble
    Date: 28 May 10 - 01:15 PM

    Mousethief-

    I was being sarcastic but forgot to color the font the appropriate color.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    BP fucked up big-time. But it was no accident. It was the consequence of their on-going corporate strategy of maximizing profits at the expense of safety concerns.

    I hope that's a clearer statement.

    Charley Noble


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 28 May 10 - 01:37 PM

    The BP executives I have mentioned in this and the other thread mostly had experience in the Russian oil fields, with TNK-BP. I wonder if the Russian tendency toward corruption and shortcuts infect them?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: PoppaGator
    Date: 28 May 10 - 03:52 PM

    On the morning before the explosion, the Transamerica guys were reportedly arguing for observation of various safety measures but were overruled by their employers from BP. This report has been slow in emerging largely because the leaders among the Transamerica group didn't survive the explosion.

    So, Joe, don't be so quick to shift blame from the owner to the subcontractor.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 28 May 10 - 04:48 PM

    Transocean provides the rig and crew to operate it. They can do nothing in regard to the drilling except give advice.

    "The rig's regulations state that in the event of such an emergency, the two top managers- on April 20 they were BP's senior person on the rig, Donald Vidrine, and Transocean's installation manager, Mr. Harrell- were to go to the drilling floor and evaluate the situation jointly. But once the gas hit, neither was able to get to the area."

    These rigs have no fire pumps, so the fire couldn't be fought (impossible anyhow, with the rush of gas up the pipe).

    All of those killed were American, including the well-known driller, Dewey Revette.
    See other thread for more comments from the WSJ article, which includes pictures of the 11 killed.

    The BP executives on board, and senior transocean crew, escaped.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 28 May 10 - 05:13 PM

    Mike Williams, who was working on the drilling rig, was interviewed very recently on "60 Minutes" on CBS (CLICKY). He stated that an official from BP complained that the drilling procedure was taking too long and costing too much money. He ordered changes in the normal drilling practices and insisted that they "speed it up!"

    When experienced oil drillers protested, he—a paper-pushing, bean-counting desk jockey—ignored their cautionary advice and insisted that they do as he said.

    Pretty harrowing! He and a co-worker, a young woman, had their choice between staying on the drilling platform and blowing up with it, or jumping into the water some 90 feet below.

    It makes no difference whether it's BP, Exxon, Shell, or Charlie Farquarson and his backyard drilling rig, the kind of greed and carelessness that leads to disasters of this sort is to be condemned.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Ron Davies
    Date: 28 May 10 - 09:55 PM

    "US bigots".   Oh, so all the critics of BP are disciples of Pat Robertson.   That's interesting.

    WSJ:   26 May 2010:   "BP made choices over the course of the project that rendered this well more vulnerable to the blowout...."    There's a huge article on just what those choices were.

    As they say, facts are stubborn things.

    Though proud leftist lawyers cannot be expected to be interested--it might question their comfortable Manichean AKA Marxist view of the world.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Ron Davies
    Date: 28 May 10 - 10:05 PM

    Though actually why a Marxist should want to defend one of the biggest multinationals in the world is, shall we say, a puzzlement. (I'm sure this point has already been raised but the thread is a bit long to check.)

    So since his ire is directed against the US, perhaps he's a bit bitter about the outcome of the 1775-1783 unpleasantness.

    Or perhaps he just wanted to guarantee the thread would be a long one. As we know, an incendiary thread title is a crucial element for that outcome.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 28 May 10 - 10:05 PM

    See other thread for quotes from Wall Street Journal articles.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest Teribus
    Date: 29 May 10 - 01:11 AM

    1. Transocean provides the rig and crew to operate it. They (Transocean?) can do nothing in regard to the drilling except give advice.

    Absolute rubbish, BP are the Operator of the Field or concession (i.e. the licence holder), Transocean are the specialist contractor brought in to drill the well, as specialist contractor they are responsible to see that they operate safely, they are responsible for ensuring that their equipment is well maintained and "fit for purpose", they are responsible for checking and verifying that CPI (Company Provided Items) issued to them by BP are in good order and "fit for purpose" in relation to their (Transocean's) equipment, methods and operating procedures. As Operator BP is ultimately responsible irrespective, whether or not they are to blame or at fault is another matter entirely.

    2. When first drilling down, a BP manager ordered a faster pace Due to the faster pace, the bottom of the well split open and the well had to be abandoned, costing BP millions.

    I take it then that on that particular occasion Transocean could not have felt in the mood for giving advice.

    <3.>A rig accident damaged the annular at the top of the blowout preventer. The crew sealed the pipe, but too much force was applied, and chunks of the rubber annular came up in the drilling fluid.
    The supervisor said it was no big deal.

    A rig accident? Did something hit the top of the blow-out preventer as it stood on deck? If so Transocean at fault for not having protective cap in place; not employing safe crane operating procedures; poor crane operation. I say Transocean as BP would not be involved in any of the above. Was the top of the BOP struck by something under water? Again it is Transocean at fault they are physically carrying out the work, it is their hands that are on the levers, and it is their judgement that is used with regard to when those levers are pulled and things landed on.

    The crew sealed the pipe, but too much force was applied? Again the men making up that "crew" would be Transocean's responsibility, working under direct Transocean supervision in accordance with Transocean's standard operating procedures.

    <4.> It will be some time before the investigative committee reports, but it looks like a sloppy, careless crew were on the drill floor and mud control procedures were overridden by BP supervisor.

    Ah! so now the "Nurnberg Defence" holds good does it? "I was only following orders". Again complete and utter rubbish. Transocean were there as the specialists, the experts, that is why they were given the contract, if they were asked to do anything that they thought compromised the safety of the job they should have refused to do it. It is called maintaining your professional integrity.

    PS: He (Mike Williams)stated that an official from BP complained that the drilling procedure was taking too long and costing too much money. He ordered changes in the normal drilling practices and insisted that they "speed it up!"

    Normal operating condition, from personal experience Operators the world over always complain that the drilling is taking too long and costing too much. He can order all he wants, he can demand and stamp and shout, He is incapable of actually implementing his orders or demands so if it is not safe then it does not get done if the senior members of the Transocean Team are doing their jobs correctly.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Ron Davies
    Date: 29 May 10 - 02:20 PM

    "...another matter..."


    OK, Teribus, is BP blameless?   Yes or no.   No tome necessary.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 29 May 10 - 02:26 PM

    Transocean has nothing to do with the BP drilling crew, which was under the direction of BP supervisors.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 29 May 10 - 02:35 PM

    Could BP not have fired Transocean and hire someone else had they not obeyed orders? If not, why not?

    A BP official expressed surprise at what happened, saying, "I didn't think an oil well would do that!"

    He considers himself an oil man, and had never seen a gusher before!?

    . . . paper-pushing, bean-counting desk jockey. . . .

    Mike Williams said that they didn't think that the job couldn't be speeded up, but they didn't believe it would be safe and prudent to do so. The BP official was very insistent and demanding. What Williams and the others on the drilling rig were afraid might possibly happen is what did happen, but it was far worse than they anticipated.

    No, the ultimate responsibility belongs to BP, and as I say above, it does not matter if it's BP, Exxon, Shell, or anyone else, they are ultimately responsible and "bigotry" has absolutely nothing to do with it.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 29 May 10 - 03:06 PM

    Fire Transocean?
    Transocean is an owner and builder of large semisubmersible vessels which are towed to drill sites. "Rig" is hardly the word for them.

    Maersk and Keppelfels are other builders and leasors.
    These vessels cost about half a billion dollars, and are usually contracted by oil majors before they are built, and there are anxious companies waiting for one of them to become available.

    This Keppelfels description is good and gives an idea of their size.

    DSS38


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Stringsinger
    Date: 29 May 10 - 04:14 PM

    BP cut corners. That's not bigotry. That's fact.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 29 May 10 - 04:49 PM

    And had a long and verifiable history of cutting corners, two factors of 10 that than their competitors. Are all Brits this unscrupulous (or incompetent) in their business practices? Can't possibly be. This must be about BP in particular, not their nation of origin.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Teribus
    Date: 30 May 10 - 06:47 AM

    There was NO BP Drilling Crew

    Transocean own and operate the rigs they provide the crew

    Were they running casing at the time then a specialist casing sub-contractor would put a crew out to do that job, once the casing is set they then turn the drill floor back to the Transocean Crew who would then drill the well.

    Was BP to blame, I have no idea, based on what I have read so far, it would not surprise me if they are somewhat in part to blame. Are they responsible? undoubtedly. You are talking about operations right at the leading edge of the technology currently available in this depth of water and at this depth of well they are pioneering.

    Something like being a passenger in a taxi and you are in a hurry. You instruct the taxi driver to run a red light, or urge him to go faster or overtake. If there is an accident, a collision, you as the passenger would not be charged, the taxi driver would as he should have exercised better judgement as he was in charge of the car.

    Could BP fire Transocean, yes of course they could but it would be highly unlikely as it would have cost them too much in terms of time and money. As stated above there are not that many rigs that can drill in this depth of water.

    Nobody complained about BP when they discovered the latest "Elephant" in deep water in Gulf Of Mexico a few months ago, no talk of incompetence then. The discovery of that field will radically alter oil imports for the US


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Ron Davies
    Date: 30 May 10 - 10:13 AM

    "...somewhat in part to blame..."

    That's big of you.

    What about the Wall St. Journal article to which I referred?   How many details do you need before it penetrates your brain that BP by its decisions must bear the lion's share of responsibility for this disaster?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 30 May 10 - 12:56 PM

    More of trying to do it on the cheap-

    Internal memos at BP- On June 22, BP engineers expressed concern that the metal casing the company wanted to use might collapse under high pressure.
    "This would certainly be a worst-case scenario," Mark E. Hafle, a senior drilling engineer at BP, warned in an internal report. "However, I have seen it happen so know it can occur."
    BP went ahead with the casing, but only after getting special permission from BP colleagues because it violated the company's safety policies and design standards.
    BP documents released last week to The Times revealed that company officials knew the casing was the riskier of two options.

    "Documents show early worries about safety of rig," NY Times May 29, 2010. Ian Urbina, reporter.
    The use of the light weight casing was noted elsewhere, as I noted in one of these threads.

    Terribus is wrong- the drilling crew was entirely BP crew and supervised by BP employees.
    Transocean owned and cared for the rig, but the drilling program was entirely BP's.

    BP was lucky (?) that the blowout did not occur at the previous well, also risky in that wells drilled to that depth (c. 35000 feet) and in a mile of water are entering a realm at the limit of possibility, and in case of blowout there are no tested cures except drilling offset wells, which takes months.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: DougR
    Date: 30 May 10 - 04:19 PM

    Mousethief: "There is nothing in what Obama has said that has anything to do with nationalism."

    I certainly agree with you, Mousethief, were it true, it would be a first!

    Kendall: "They (BP) are still motivated by profit first and safety second."

    Of course profit is their motivation! If it weren't the shareholders would certainly be looking around for a new CEO! As to the importance of safety to the company, that's more a matter of opinion unless there are facts to support the statement. I know that the Texas City explosion was a terrible one for which BP was responsible but what is their overall record?

    DougR

    DougR


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 30 May 10 - 04:29 PM

    But profit at the expense of safety and legality?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 30 May 10 - 05:17 PM

    ABC News:
    "In two separate disasters prior to the oil rig explosion, 30 BP workers have been killed and more than 200 seriously injured.
    "In the last five years ..... BP has admitted to breaking U. S. environmental and safety laws and committing outright fraud. BP paid $373 million in fines to avoid prosecution'"
    "According to the Center for Public Integrity, in the last three years, BP refineries in Ohio and Texas have accounted for 97% of the "egregious, willful" violations handed out by OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration).
    "OSHA statistics show BP ran up 760 "egregious, willful" safety violations, while Sunoco and Conoco-Phillips each had eight, Citgo had two and Exxon had one comparable violation."

    In the Texas City disaster, BP "paid $50 million in criminal fines....and acknowledged violating the Clean Air Act."
    It also was fined $21 million by OSHA for safety violations.

    MMS fined BP for a near blowout at an offshore rig in 2002.

    The Prudhoe Bay pipeline break dumped oil into Prudhoe Bay. Caused by failure to detect corrosion in the pipeline; it had stopped sending probes to detect corrosion in the line as a cost-cutting measure. BP was fined by MMS.

    Tony Hayward, the boy wonder exec, has slashed 7500 jobs and made $4 billion in cuts to expenses.

    I can find more.....


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 30 May 10 - 05:21 PM

    The ABC report by Thomas, Jones, Cloherty and Ryan, "BP's Dismal Safety Record," May 27, 2010. ABC World News.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 30 May 10 - 05:30 PM

    Much of what ABC News reported appeared earlier in the NY Times:
    www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/business/09bp.html

    Operation of the Atlantis platform in the Gulf of Mexico currently under investigation.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Songbob
    Date: 30 May 10 - 11:58 PM

    "These vessels cost about half a billion dollars, and are usually contracted by oil majors before they are built, and there are anxious companies waiting for one of them to become available."

    I know where they can find an idle one, only slightly singed, and water-logged. It comes with its own lubrication, too.

    Bob


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 31 May 10 - 07:01 AM

    Everything they have tried has failed. This is the worst environmental disaster in our history. Blaming gets us no where. BP is responsible and they should be forced to do whatever it takes to clean up their mess.
    These people who are howling that the government should take over the operation are not being realistic. Who is there in the government that is qualified to do that? Bobby Jindal is making a lot of noise but it's mostly political; he wants Obama to fail just like that bloviating fathead, Limbaugh.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 31 May 10 - 01:35 PM

    Only another oil company with personnel experienced in deep water could take over. That might add transparency to procedures, but abilities the same.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: SINSULL
    Date: 31 May 10 - 05:50 PM

    Kendall,
    I am surprised at your question. We'll just blow it off the face of the earth and be done with it,

    Sorry, my toe hurts and I am getting as much mileage out of it as possible.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 01 Jun 10 - 12:09 AM

    What Q said. Take BP out of the picture entirely. Pick the major oil company with the best safety record over the last 10 years, give them blank check to do whatever they can to stop the leak and clean up the spill, and send BP the bill.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: VirginiaTam
    Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:15 PM

    while I agree hat any companies involved in this accident should share responsibilty for the clean up and cost of lives, I don't agree with the term bigot in the thread title. Hypocrite might be more appropriate.


    Following link does not help BP look better to the public. Are they stupid or what?

    BP buys internet search terms to divert searchers away from oil spill news


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: dick greenhaus
    Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:34 PM

    JThe Trans-Alaska Pipeline, partly owned by BP, shut down on Tuesday after spilling several thousand barrels of crude oil into backup containers, drastically cutting supply down the main artery between refineries and Alaska's oilfields.

    The accident comes at a difficult time for BP -- the largest single owner of the pipeline operator, holding 47 percent -- as it struggles to plug a gushing Gulf of Mexico oil well.

    The shutdown followed a series of mishaps that resulted from a scheduled fire-command system test at Pump Station 9, about 100 miles south of Fairbanks, said Alyeska Pipeline Service Co, the operator of the 800-mile oil line.

    The power outage triggered opening of relief valves, causing an unspecified volume of crude oil to overflow a storage tank into a secondary containment. There were no injuries, but the approximately 40 people at the work site were evacuated, Alyeska spokeswoman Michele Egan said.

    North Slope oil producers have cut their flow into the pipeline's Prudhoe Bay intake station to 16 percent of their normal rates, Egan said. There is enough storage capacity to allow the line to be shut down for 48 hours as long as producers maintain the 16 percent flow rate, she said.

    It is unclear how long the shutdown will last.

    "We're going to take as long as we need to make sure the site is safe before we start back up," Egan said. Supply problems in the pipeline potentially disrupt tanker shipments to refineries.

    The volume of spilled oil is unknown. "We've estimated the spill is several thousand barrels," she said. All has been held within the secondary containment, which has capacity to hold 104,500 barrels, she said. The amount spilled is "nowhere near" the containment area's capacity, she added.

    Alyeska is a consortium owned by five oil companies. Major owners are BP, ConocoPhillips and Exxon Mobil. Unocal and Koch hold minor shares.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM

    Virginia Tam, the site says the article is being prepared and should be ready in 5 minutes- some hours ago; the 5 minute wait is still a 5 minute wait.
    You can find the story at SFGate, the San Francisco Chronicle site.

    "If you search for news and information about the oil spill on the internet, your first result will be a link to BP's website that the tagline describes as "how BP is helping." That's because the company has purchased "oil spill" as words through Google and Yahoo. "Oil spill" has been among the top searches on Google, twitter and Yahoo for several weeks."
    "To add insult to injury, the better source of information is the website of the Unified Command, which includes BP and Transocean as well as the government agencies involved in the cleanup."
    (bold letters mine).

    Obama previously criticized BP for buying $50 million in television advertizing .............


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:26 AM

    But profit at the expense of safety and legality?

    But of COURSE ! At the expense of any and every thing. That's The BuShite/Douggite dogma.

    Its why the U.S. is headed for the crapper.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM

    Have you seen the video of the gas pump that has the sign DO NOT LEAVE PUMP UNATTENDED. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR SPILLS.
    The funny part is, in the background is a BP sign!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:31 AM

    Funny? ya gots a strange sense of humor! ;>)


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Bill D
    Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:19 AM

    Just in case someone has not read the other thread on what was involved in the leadup to the accident, I will repost this from that thread:

    "The "Deepwater Horizon" was a drilling platform... it was being prepared to move to another location so a pumping platform could come in and extract the oil.
    The explosion was a result of trying to simplify and shorten the process of attaching the pumping platform. As they were sealing the pipe in order to move, they used seawater instead of 'drilling mud' to block the pipe while final disconnections were mead. Drilling mud would have taken a couple of weeks to 'clear', and delayed the start of pumping oil. There was a flawed seal which was not tested properly which allowed pressure to 'blow out' the seal and send high-pressure water & oil up and cause the explosion & fire.
    It was partially greed & impatience and careless maintenance by BOTH BP and the operators that led to the failure, but there was a big argument in the hours before the fire as to how to do the sealing... **BP** overruled those doing the work and told them to use the shortcut....and then claimed "We aren't the operators."

    Now....the point is..no matter who was actually on the drilling crew, BP was giving the orders as to how to do the intended sealing


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Sawzaw
    Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

    Should we give London a taste of shock and awe for harboring these ecological terrorist? ;D


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM

    Where are the vigilantes of yesteryear?

    Coat Tony Hayward in tar and ride him on a rail into Gulf oil spill-

    Well, it's a thought.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Donuel
    Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:10 PM

    Lets be civil.

    Take Tony and give him a nice beach house right in the middle of the spill. Enforce his stay with house arrest. Make sure the air conditioner is defective. Give him estimates on how good the air conditioner is and how optimistic we are at how soon it will be repaired.

    Make sure all his food and water come from the Gulf area.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: kendall
    Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:21 PM

    Greg F it is not funny in the humorous sense, it is ironic.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: GUEST,Rev. Goose 'Goof' Gander (retired)
    Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:11 PM

    BP Response Plan Severely Flawed

    Surprise!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Donuel
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:10 PM

    There are voices in UK that now openly decree on BBC that the US goverment is a bigot when it comes to relations with big corporations like BP.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

    While it grieves me to agree with Boris (Bloody Stupid) Johnson, the conservative mayor of London, he is now saying that the anti British nature of US rhetoric on the spill is a matter for concern, and so are other politicians. Well, I suppose better late than never.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:32 PM

    So.... if a USA oil company drilled a well just off a sensitive wildlife and fishery habitat of Britain and they did not have a realistic disaster plan or follow safety checks, a major oil leak onto shore would result in a response from the UK of... ?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM

    Oh, Alice, that is so different.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM

    When there is human and environmental damage in other countries, how do USA companies measure up for care and compensation?

    http://thechronicleherald.ca/Editorial/1186571.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Rev. Goose 'Goof' Gander (retired)
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM

    Funny how a little oil spill can transform a modern liberal into an 18th-century Tory.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Stringsinger
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

    B.P. is a "country" unto itself. Tony Hayward belongs in jail.

    This has nothing to do with Britain.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:00 PM

    Yes, I think of Bhopal, India, and Union Carbide, too, the largest industrial disaster so far in the world.

    My point is, no matter what company owns the responsibility, a disaster is a disaster no matter where it happens in the world. Corporations are responsible for what they do and don't do when they cause a disaster.

    No matter where they are based or where it happens, corporations like Union Carbide, BP, DOW Chemical, Siemens, EXXON, BSAF, mining companies in China, the US... you get my point.


    We should all be outraged when negligence causes industrial disasters anywhere in the world.



    Alice


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

    BP had better start paying those bills for compensation that are piling up or it may face more than unkind words.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:59 PM

    When there is human and environmental damage in other countries, how do USA companies measure up for care and compensation?

    Nobody said US companies were all sweetness and light, so this is a total non sequitur. Megacorporations which flout safety regulations and act recklessly in their pursuit of the almighty dollar/yen/pound/euro are everywhere despised. Trying to get BP off the hook because it's a British company is also despicable. They fucked up, they can take their lumps, whether their headquarters is on the Thames or the Sea of Tranquility. This is so not a nationalist issue. I'm starting to think the Brits are just horribly insecure in their feelings about their own country, and any criticism -- even if it's not against Britain but against a company that used to have "British" in its name -- feeds the fires of their inferiority complex. How else to explain this thread?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM

    ""BP had better start paying those bills for compensation that are piling up or it may face more than unkind words.""

    There was an interview on BBC TV about ten days ago in which we were told that BP was already paying out on every damage claim presented, and were doing so in 48 hours, rather than the 45 days which is the norm in the USA.

    Thet had already stated several times that they had every intention of paying the whole bill for the clear-up (in fact they said so long before the US government started this high profile vote saving attack on BP).

    Now, I hold no brief for any company which puts profit ahead of safety, and notwithstanding any arguments as to degrees of responsibility, BP is, and has accepted that it is, ultimately responsible for clearing up the mess.

    I fail to see, however, the benefits (given that they are footing the total bill) of slagging them off and threatening criminal prosecutions, and seizure of assets, as a result of which 40 percent of the company's value has been wiped out.

    I know that things are done differently in the US of A, but I'd love to know how driving the company out of business will help to provide the billions needed for the job.

    Don't you think it might be smarter to keep the smart mouths shut, and let them get on with it.

    Incidentally, it has to be said that British companies were much more ethically operated up until the late 1950s when American business influences first made themselves felt over here. True indeed to say that US corporations taught people like BP all they know about modern business practices.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:02 PM

    BP has paid out only $5000 on claims processed so far- billions are necessary to clean up their mess, pay for lost business and wages of the many now unemployed as a result, and restore wetlands and the organisms that inhabit them and the Gulf waters.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:37 PM

    True indeed to say that US corporations taught people like BP all they know about modern business practices.

    And they lapped it up like milk. Corruption corrupts. News at 11.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:06 PM

    Nonsense, mousethief.
    British Industrialists began with the Industrial Revolution and as early as the British East India Company.
    A few in the 19th c. were William Forster, Robert Peel, Cecil Rhodes, Richard Awkright, William Armstrong, Richard Young, etc., etc., ......
    They taught people such as Carnegie in the States.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: ichMael
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:13 PM

    This whole event has been a scam. Goldman Sachs (huge bank) sold all their BP stock just before the "accident."

    Goldman Sachs sold $250 million of BP stock before spill

    Goldman Sachs knew what was coming, same as AB Brown (German bank) knew what was coming in the days before 9/11. Buzzy Krongard (#3 at the CIA) used to work for Brown, and Brown miraculously bought a record number of put options against United and American airlines just before the attacks. Hundreds of aviation stocks to choose from, and they bet against those two.

    Suppressed Details of Criminal Insider Trading Lead Directly into the CIA's High

    So this is another act of government-sponsored terrorism.

    But who benefits? At first glance it seems that Obama's the loser--stumbling around looking ineffective--but don't forget that he's pushing "green" technology. You know...in this age of nuclear power he wants to force America back to medieval windmill technology and such. And he just got refuted at the Copenhagen Conference, so what's a ruthless genocidalist to do? Blow a well in the Gulf of Mexico and then stumble around like it's all a big mystery to him. And meanwhile, the damage gets uglier and uglier. After this, America will be easy to sell on the notion that we need that genocidalist ethanol, and thousand-year-old windmills instead of oil.

    This whole thing is a sham. A show.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:15 AM

    I, of course, remember the Bhopal catastrophe but this sentence in that link struck me: "The court levied the maximum penalties available under Indian law on the charges before it — that of criminal negligence."

    In what way did the US dodge its obligations?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Lonesome EJ
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:45 AM

    I find it difficult to conceive of the degree of masochism required to step out in a thread like this and defend BP...and you're usually such a clear-thinking fellow, Richard.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Howard Jones
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:02 AM

    The story as it's being reported here is that Obama and other US politicians are giving out the message that the US environment and US jobs have been endangered by a foreign company, and that they're doing so for electoral reasons. Some of our own politicians have taken the hook, others are being more measured in their response. It's probably true that for many here BP still means "British Petroleum" so it's taken as an attack on a British company, even if that's no longer really the case.

    It also has to be seen in a context where the US appears to view the "special relationship" purely in terms of its own advantage. For example, Britons are being extradited to the US (sometimes for offences which are not illegal here) without the protection of our own courts under a treaty intended for terrorists which the US has refused to ratify, with the effect that US citizens can't be extradited to the UK on similar terms. At the same time the US is happy to call on our help in Iraq and Afghanistan. So we may sometimes appear a bit defensive.

    Be that as it may, the latest call to stop BP paying dividends is the worst kind of political grandstanding, for these reasons:

    Firstly, if BP has the resources to pay for the clean-up and its other liabilities (and according to the papers here that's not in question) then whether or not it pays dividends is irrelevant

    On the other hand, if BP doesn't have sufficient resources, putting further pressure on its already battered share price and devaluing the company further won't help it to raise any additional cash needed

    Thirdly, who do these politicians think is going to be affected by withholding the dividend? Apart from the effect on share price (which helps no one), it won't be the business, which will be holding on to a large sum of cash. Some of the executives may see their share price linked bonuses fall, but rest assured they won't be going short. No, the people who will be affected will be all those people in the UK and the US who have pension funds, life insurance, investment funds, etc, invested in BP - in other words, you and me.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:26 AM

    Nobody is trying to defend BP in terms of its responsibility for clearing up the mess.

    What we are saying is that BP has stated very clearly, right from the start, that its intention is to pay for the lot.

    Q says "only $5000 dollars has been paid out",while we hear that BP has been paying out all small damage claims to affected fishermen and others who have suffered losses.

    By whose reckoning has the amount paid been only $5000?

    Who has paid for the hire of containment equipment, for the capping devices, for the services of all the organisations involved, and for the chemicals used to disperse the slicks?

    I suspect that the only part paid for (pro tem) by anyone other than BP is the shoreline cleaning, and BP have already promised to cover the cost of that.

    The accident has happened, and nobody can change that fact. BP is taking responsibility for dealing with the aftermath, and doing everything it can to mitigate the disaster.

    So what is it you US citizens are after?.......REVENGE?

    How do you gain by the destruction of the very organisation you are relying on to put things right?

    One comment from the BP interview made a considerable impression on me, and it was this:-

    ""When the well is plugged and the slicks are dispersed, then we (that is BP) will be spending months, maybe years dealing with the onshore and offshore damage. By that time, all the Media will have gone home""

    I think that was fair comment. We will not see Media headlines about BPs efforts to repair the damage because the Media don't much care for good news, DO THEY?

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:51 AM

    But moreover, if (and I say "if") it is true that BP directions did cause the original problem, when the US bigmouths were first jumping on the bandwagon that fact (if it be a fact) was not known, and the assumption that it was BP at fault not either of the US corporations was based on nothing more than prejudice.

    As for BP putting its hands up - you know the standard advice given to defendants before courts with the probity of Judge Jeffries, don't you? It will go easier on you if you admit your guilt (whether you are guilty or not).


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

    This is worth a read. Hopefully it hasn't been posted already.

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/BP-CEO-John-Napier-Letter-To-President-Barack-Obama-Over-The-Oil-Spill-In-The-Gulf-O


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM

    "In what way did the US dodge its obligations?"

    From: http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/jun/11/praful-bidwai-on-the-bhopal-gas-tragedy.htm

    "In such cases, the principle of corporate liability demands that owners are made to take full responsibility for all mishaps. This principle is rightly being applied to BP for the oil spill off the Louisiana coast in the US. President Barack Obama [ Images ] says he wants to 'kick ass' and 'make sure that they (BP) pay every single dime owed to the people along the Gulf Coast'.

    The liability principle should apply with even greater force to the much greater disaster in Bhopal. Violating the principle can only encourage corporations to behave irresponsibly, cut corners on safety, cheat on regulations and expose the public to avoidable harm. No civilised society can allow that."


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Howard Jones
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:28 AM

    I don't think anyone's suggesting BP should duck its obligations. It's the way US politicians appear to trying to give the impression that it's all the fault of foreigners, and their grandstanding for electoral purposes which is objectionable.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:07 AM

    Don T, FWIW, Q is Canadian.


    "For example, Britons are being extradited to the US (sometimes for offences which are not illegal here) without the protection of our own courts under a treaty intended for terrorists which the US has refused to ratify, with the effect that US citizens can't be extradited to the UK on similar terms."

    Question for Howard Jones: What offenses would that be? I truly don't know.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

    All the fault of "foreigners"???

    I think you should know most people in the US have seen tv ads for many years that say "BP Beyond Petroleum". Most people don't even know that BP is British. They are not upset because there is another country involved.... it is typical these days with oil drilling for oil projects to be multinational. They are upset because IT HAPPENED and was PREVENTABLE and the disaster plan was INADEQUATE.

    You are over reacting to something being promoted in your news there to make you feel on the defensive as a country. It truly is not what is happening over here. There is no attack on Britain here.

    Alice


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Lonesome EJ
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:51 AM

    BP has been found guilty of numerous safety and environmental violations over the past decade, has been found guilty of criminal violations and forced to pay millions in fines, judgments, and reparations. As a company, it has shown willingness to play fast and loose with even its own safety standards in order to minimize down time and maximize profitability. The fact that this behavior was tolerated for as long as it has been is as much an impeachment of the regulating agencies in the United States as it is of BP. I frankly don't give a damn if B stands for British or Beneficial or Bastardly. As for dividends, my fear is that BP will pay its stockholders, fold its tents, and declare itself insolvent and incapable of further action on the colossal mess it has created. Has the company proven itself worthy of our trust in any other way? And if all of this ruffles some Brit feathers for some reason, maybe you'll feel differently if the sludge starts rolling up on the Isle of Wight.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM

    my fear is that BP will pay its stockholders, fold its tents, and declare itself insolvent and incapable of further action on the colossal mess it has created.

    And why not? That's laissez-faire capitalism at its best. "The Magic Of The Market" at work.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Lonesome EJ
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:30 PM

    Anyone who wants to sign up for laissez faire capitalism can get in line behind Sarah Palin, Rand Paul, and Rush Limbaugh, Greg. That concept has been shown to be the province of thieves and liars for quite some time.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM

    The oil is now heading for my beach here in North Carolina. After it leaves my beautiful state, it will be heading east, towards the UK.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:03 PM

    America should have made sure that BP complied to the very strict requirements needed to run this sort of operation. They didn't and we now have this mess.

    BP are obviously to blame but so is America.

    Stop blaming BP as if its all their fault Obama and start to accept that if your previous bumbling President's had done their job properly and made sure BP wasn't able to get into this situation in the first place, it wouldn't have happened.

    You have lost all respect from me Mr Obama. You are scoring cheap points against a foreign company who is working in your territory.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:08 PM

    I'm sure your opinion makes him sad, Artur.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

    BP are obviously to blame but so is America.

    True. The deregulation (and de-facto deregulation by way of not enforcing those regulations that still do exist) of the Reagan Era (which Obama and Co., alas, are slow to overturn) (not that the Repuglicans have ANY right to complain about that!) is coming home to roost in the last 3 years.

    And why not? That's laissez-faire capitalism at its best. "The Magic Of The Market" at work.

    "The Market" is vastly overrated. "The Market" gave us the global financial meltdown of October 2008. Regulate the shit out of it. Business should work for people. That's why the governments allow corporations to exist. Or should be.

    What we are saying is that BP has stated very clearly, right from the start, that its intention is to pay for the lot.

    Well, they agreed to pay for all legitimate claims, "legitimate" being a weasel word which one can fully expect to be used to dodge out of claims that any number of observers might think are "legitimate".


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Howard Jones
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

    Ebbie, I believe there are some some offences relating to business practices where the law differs.

    A celebrated case here involved three businessmen involved in the Enron situation. Despite the fact that their alleged offence was committed in the UK against a British company, they were successfully extradited to the US where they were convicted. I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of their conviction, but their publicity campaign highlighted the imbalance in extradition arrangements between the two countries.

    They were convicted of "wire fraud", in which the use of electronic communications adds to the severity of the sentence. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't believe a similar distinction applies in English law - it would be treated simply as fraud, with all the circumstances having a bearing on the sentence.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

    Not that bothered Ebbie. Just fed up of the yanks, ducking the flack and blaming BP 100% and not facing up to their own cock ups.

    I think it's time our Prime Minister's stopped arsole creeping your President's.

    I personally am very sorry to see such a disaster and my heartfelt thoughts are with all the good honest people who are suffering over there.

    I think it's time we pulled out of all the war conflict's that you yanks have led us into, due to our own arsole creeping PM's.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Les from Hull
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

    Actually BP is not a British Company. The B does not stand for British any more, it stands for B - the name was changed from British Petroleum a few years ago. There are probably as many American investors in the company as there are British. It is a multi-national oil company that has its origins in Britain the same way that Royal Dutch Shell originated in the Netherlands. It is considered the 5th biggest company in the World.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:23 PM

    I think it's time we pulled out of all the war conflict's that you yanks have led us into, due to our own arsole creeping PM's.

    I think it's time that we (Americans) pulled out of the war conflicts. Fucking George Bush. And spineless Obama to keep us there.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Lonesome EJ
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:23 PM

    made sure BP wasn't able to get into this situation in the first place

    the poor performance of our regulatory agencies aside, a company that continues to act in criminal negligence is like a serial killer whose defense is "it's not my fault! Why didnt you stop me?"

    The fact is, deep ocean oilwell drilling is a huge risk, and a company undertaking it should provide a series of failsafe backup procedures in the event of disaster. There should also be a contingency plan to eliminate the threat, should all of the failsafes fail. Here, BP was allowed to undertake a project for which they didn't possess the technology for a repair. And even though they don't, they unfortunately still hold the best resources with potential for a solution. To condemn Obama for not fixing the blown well, or for his criticism of BP for undertaking a disastrous gamble, is ridiculous.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM

    Anyone who wants to sign up for laissez faire capitalism can get in line behind Sarah Palin, Rand Paul, and Rush Limbaugh, Greg.

    [NB: Add Ayan Rand to your list.And most of the Republican party.]

    You Betcha! and millions have, despite conclusive evidence that ot's a crock.

    God Help America.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM

    L EJ

    I am blaming America for letting BP get itself into this situation.

    I just can't stand that spineless Obama blaming BP when he knows his own country is just as much at fault. He is very good at talking the talk.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM

    I am blaming America for letting BP get itself into this situation.

    Then you're an idiot. BP is a big boy, it should be able to police itself at least to the extent of following all the laws and industry-wide safety procedures. That they did not is not America's fault. They need to take responsibility for their own actions, not pawn it off on the regulatory agencies etc.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM

    I beg your pardon Mousethief. Do not start flaming me. I have not insulted any mudcatter posters including you, and |I do not accept that from you.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM

    Pardon. Then, what you have said is idiotic.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Howard Jones
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM

    Ordinary Americans may not identify BP as a British company. However Obama and some other politicians have been referring to it as "British Petroleum", which the company has not been known as for many years. Now this may just be a slip of the tongue, but it's being interpreted by the media here as a deliberate and orchestrated ploy to emphasise the foreignness of BP. It also appears that a lot of American politicians are adopting tough attitudes, with talk about "kicking ass", in order to get BP to do what it has already agreed it will do.

    All this posturing is being regarded as the politicians wanting to be seen to be defending American interests against nasty foreigners. Since BP is still viewed here as a leading British company, this is seen as anti-British. It's a view about American politicians, not the American people as a whole, but there's concern that it will begin to rub off on them if the politicians keep repeating it. It may not be an accurate interpretation of events, but it's how it's being reported here - the American media may have a different interpretation, I don't know.

    The reality of course is that despite its history and London base it is a multinational company and as much American as it is British. The reality also is that millions of American as well as British citizens are indirect shareholders in BP via their pension funds and other investments. That's you and me.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM

    Now this may just be a slip of the tongue, but it's being interpreted by the media here as a deliberate and orchestrated ploy to emphasise the foreignness of BP.

    I'd say that's a deliberate and orchestrated ploy by your media. People who remember when BP meant "British Petroleum", and who were unaware of the fact it had changed its name (I wasn't aware of that -- I don't follow megaconglomerates very closely), I think can be forgiven.

    It's like KFC. "Everybody knows" it stands for "Kentucky Fried Chicken" but it no longer does so. But that fact hasn't exactly been shouted from the rooftops. I found it on an obscure blog.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM

    Mousethief, that is your opinion, but please refrain from flaming people who do not agree with your viewpoint.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:51 PM

    I said Pardon. Perhaps that's not clear. "I'm sorry I called you an idiot."

    Yes it is my opinion, as is everything else I say here. Same for you, mutatis mutandis. And everybody here. Thanks for reminding us.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

    Quote from BP website-
    "With our global headquarters in London and operations across the country, the UK is the hub of the entire BP business."

    http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=24@contentId=2000737.
    -----------------------------------------------
    From links at that site:
    "The BP group operates across six continents, and our products and services are aailable in more than 100 countries."
    "London is where BP's corporate headquarters are located, and the UK is therefore a centre for trading, legal, finance and other mainstreram business functions. The UK is also home to three of BP's major global research and technology groups."
    North America
    "The BP group is the largest oil and gas producer and one of the largest gasoline retailers in the United States. We are the largest non-US company on the New York Stock Exchange. Our BP Alternative Energy business has an operations centre in Houston, and we also have solar manufacturing facilities in the USA."
    http://www.bp.com/extendedsectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=40&contentId=7061813
    --------------
    Excerpts from BP press releases are found through the same sites.
    Statements about payments to states are made there, but some press releases say no monies have actually been received.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM

    "Ordinary Americans may not identify BP as a British company."
    snippet
    "Since BP is still viewed here as a leading British company,"

    So, what is the difference between Americans viewing BP as a British company and British citizens viewing BP as a British company?

    Me thinks mumble, mumble, mumble...


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM

    To turn this into a partisan party politics, is absolute absurd nonsense!! I've just received some figures, in regards to the spill, that are staggering!!!...and WAY worse than either side(?) is letting the people know about!! Obama will exploit this, and use this to push his cap and trade. STUPID!..The oil industry and its investors, are trying to minimize how the 'reported damage' is for their financial and public image purposes.. STUPID! The media(read: infotainment), depending on whose interests are backing them, are misleading people ON BOTH SIDES on a massive scale!!

    This is potentially, is a major historic event that threatens huge portions of mankind, both health, and economic. We are facing a lot different type of problem, than we may have ever faced before!..including mass evacuations, because of other compounds, being released..besides just oil!

    Furthermore, the drilling is a lot deeper, than just 5000 feet below the surface of the water. It penetrates up to 30,000 feet below the ocean floor! They believe they have penetrated the earth's mantel.

    The figures are not the mere figures that is being 'reported' on the infotainment propaganda services(so-called 'news'),..but are being estimated at 4 million barrels a day!

    As far as 'capping' the pipe: Oil drilling experts and engineers, have determined that 1500 psi is 'acceptable' levels for safe drilling pressures. What they have found here, and not being reported, is the pressures are 20,000, and up to 70,000 psi! Unfathomable by by industry standards, and by most of our minds!

    NOAA, (National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration), has found multiple plumes and fissures, with gushers within a 20 mile radius of the 'leak'.

    It is being reported by an unconfirmed source, (reportedly from leaked sources), that the material, Hydrogen sulfide, methylene chloride, benzene, and vanadium. Safe levels: Hydrogen Sulfide, 5-10 PPB (parts per billion)--detected: 1200 PPB....methylene chloride, safe: 61 PPB---detected 3400 PPB,...Benzene, Safe: 0-4 PPB---detected: 3000 PPB. Also amounts of Vanadium, a toxic metal, in undetermined large amounts.

    There is discussion of using a nuclear device to seal the leak, but to use it, they would have to take months to 'angle drill', put in place, and because of the hardness of the ocean floor and or mantel there, they can't determine(as of yet), what amount of power, or strength....in essence, they have to make an educated(?) guess!...nor have they ascertained, if it may cause more damage to the ocean floor/mantel, and actually make it WORSE!
    that the EPA has found other hazardous materials being released in staggering proportions..

    To politicize this event, is sheer foolishness!!

    Should the hurricane season, get nasty, because it is upon us(gee, is that a Democratic or Republican hurricane??), the implications on the damage and toll on human life, and after effects could be in the millions(of lives, not primarily dollars..but both), in this country alone! Should the toxic compound hit the gulf stream, the European continent as well, this is a lot more of a 'bummer(?!)' than something to merely intellectualize about.

    There's more bits of stuff, but I thought that should give you some REAL food for thought......(pretty heavy snack, eh?)

    P.S. Side note: Sea gulls and fireflies, have been spotted in the southwestern area of Colorado!???!. This is a first! Whether or not that is related, is conjecture, at this point, but rather unusual!

    Yikes!...Now I'm going to hit the 'Submit Message' button....Here goes.........!

    Have a Pleasant Day,

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM

    OK I accept your apology Mousethief. Thankyou.

    We potentially have a world disaster and we all need to pull together, not blame everybody else.

    Sometimes in life, a major disaster occurs and we sometimes have to forget our arguments and hatred's towards one another and stop passing the buck.

    I have no idea how this problem will get solved, but I do believe Obama, should be saying to BP "OK this is a big mess, but let's move forward together for the sake of humanity. If and when we solve this disaster we will see where we go from there."

    I believe the world needs to get involved in this and help in whatever we can. Whether that is technology, advice, donations of money etc etc.

    So I say to Obama, get off your arse and invite the world to help in whatever way they can, before things get any worse.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

    Maybe I'm old, but I think of BP as AMOCO, formerly Standard Oil of Indiana, formerly John D. Rockefeller. The human face I attach to BP is John D. Rockefeller. As I said above, the ownership of BP is almost equally U.S. and U.K., with a small percentage of stockholders from other countries.

    So, yeah, it takes a real idiot to think that American criticism of BP is an insult to the United Kingdom. Haven't you people over there ever heard of a "multinational corporation"? In other words, the entire premise of this thread is silly.

    -Joe Offer (supported by mutual funds, and I think some have BP shares - should I be insulted?)-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Donuel
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

    I accept your apology Arthur and in so doing you may continue to practice free speech as you like. In fact I will go as far as accepting everyone's apology without reservations.

    Afterall if you buy and use petroleum products you are part of the problem.

    ------------------------------------------------
    UK is miffed and is decrying the poor penniless pensioneers in London who depend upon their dividend to keep body and soul together. If the US tries to take their money away to throw it at some fisherman in the Gulf, there will be repurcussions!
    Harumph harumph. what what


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:10 PM

    You yanks just get on with it, but stop blaming everybody else but yourselves.

    You are great at going into other countries and killing thousands of people without remorse, but you ain't so clever when something happens on your own soil.

    No wonder you are disliked so much.

    I just hope we in Britain stop sucking up to your incessant demands to tell other countries what to do by voilence by means of military intervention.

    I will leave you to blame everybody else but yourselves.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM

    Wow. When Mousethief apologizes to Artur, all hell breaks loose. Gracious thou art not, Art.

    GfS, for a change your conclusions are coherent and focused but I would like some clarification:

    1) Where did you get the idea that we are treating this as a Democrat/Republican matter?

    2) Where did you get the idea that we take this calamity less seriously than you do?

    3) Please link us to some source(s) where we can read for ourselves what is being said out there.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Bill D
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:02 PM

    One-more-time...as Q posted a bit ago:

    "Quote from BP website-
    "With our global headquarters in London and operations across the country, the UK is the hub of the entire BP business.


    ...and I doubt I am the only one who is getting tired of the blanket condemnations of the US such as Arthur itus just dropped!
    This is just stupid: "... going into other countries and killing thousands of people without remorse, ..."
    As if we 'enjoyed' war and misery and conflict...

    Should I make a list of UK involvements in the world for a few hundred years and generalize about them? Why does emotion have to negate reason?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:28 PM

    Joe, you are close on the stockholders who hold beneficial shares.
    44% UK, 39%US, 21% rest of world; BP figures on line at bp.com.

    UK institutions hold 33% and American institutions 25%. The rest are large individual holders.

    777 shareholders have over a million shares each.

    There are some 19 million common shares; today the average price about noon was $34, about half of what it was before the gusher.

    BP's drilling carelessness is costing everybody, even if their pensions, investments and savings are with institutions which hold no BP shares.

    Guest from Sanity, the daily flow seems to be about 40-50 thousand barrels according to experts from various universities. Of course by the time relief wells are drilled, many millions will be in the Gulf- the Oil Sea.
    -------------------------

    The last compensation figure released by BP (June 6) is $84 million to some 14,000 applicants, or roughly $6000 per claim. Less than peanuts.
    www.oilvoice.com June 6, 2010.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Rapparee
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM

    In an ad in 1999, BP told the US that they were "Bringing Oil To American Shores."


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:22 PM

    Look - long before there was any information about BP misconduct, US commentators were going for BP and ignoring the US companies involved. Were they psychic, or prejudiced? It isn't hard to figure out.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:42 PM

    Q: "Guest from Sanity, the daily flow seems to be about 40-50 thousand barrels according to experts from various universities. Of course by the time relief wells are drilled, many millions will be in the Gulf- the Oil Sea."

    You mean, various universities that receive massive government funds???

    The figures and info I received was from a reliable source... not only that, no sooner than I left here, went somewhere in the car, ABC radio, just reported that the spill had gotten further into the Gulf, and was a lot larger than they originally thought....and to answer Ebbster's questions, which is related, in a way, the EPA data was leaked, you might find more about it online, however I'd rather not divulge that, at this time. HOWEVER, this thing ain't going away too soon, I'm sure more will come out, as time goes on.

    I am not, have not, nor will not, pass misinformation onto you guys, to the best of my knowledge, (though I might piss a few of you off, especially those who can't distinguish between satire and hatred)..nonetheless, musicians/poets etc. are a peculiar people, whose gift, when NOT laying dormant, wallowing in the past, are NOT people I would ever intentionally bullshit!!

    When used properly, and when 'dialed-in', you have at your disposal, the means of changing lives, policies, and hearts. Giving you bad input intentionally, will NOT happen...from me......though, once again, you may or may not agree. As an example, look at the criticism, I posted during the elections, and primaries...that stuff is being made manifest, everyday that we live! Same with the corruption..same with the phony manipulation of the economy, for the sake of control!...all coming true.

    Musicians should be ahead of the curve, not parroting behind the curve, as set forth by the propaganda and infotainment industry!

    i wasn't going to even post on this thread, but being as I got the new info, i thought I'd pass it. Do with it as you'd like, but to the best of my knowledge, it is accurate!!

    There are some things to consider about how this was(or wasn't) handled, but there have been some massive mistakes made in judgment, and now it has been turned into a 'blame game'. This is sheer lunacy!! Mama Earth is bleeding, we did it, and rather than fix it, the evil clown(s) are trying to use it for their own arrogant purposes. The arguments we hear, are the ones put forth, and repeated by whomever, has something to gain, one way or another. Please, do NOT fall into it.

    Okay, better go now, before I go into 'sermon mode'!

    Regards,
    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:58 PM

    Richard wrote "going for BP and ignoring the US companies involved"

    You are misinformed. The American news has been covering Transocean, the Minerals Management Service that was the agency that did not regulate as they should, decades of poor regulation, Dick Cheney and his closed door meetings with energy companies during the Bush years... and much more.

    You are seeing something in the British news that is distorting what is really happening here. Dare I suggest that someone has an interest in trying to stir up emotions by creating the impression in Britain of your country being attacked?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:04 PM

    Sanity, I think you are about ready for restraints.
    New info from where, reading your tarot cards?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:41 PM

    I think we should feel sorry for poor little Switzerland, home of Transocean now that it left the Caiman Islands. The big, bad Americans are bullying the poor Swiss yodelers, simply because Transocean is a Swiss corporation.

    Well, actually, no. Americans are very nervous about multinational corporations - companies so big and widespread that they don't have to bother answering to any government authority.

    Don't give me this bullshit that criticism of BP is prejudice against Britain. BP is beyond Britain - and it's as much a threat to the UK, as it is to the US. It has too much power, and too little ethics.

    Oh, and we've been picking on Exxon ever since they spilled a little oil in Alaska..... Are they British? Nope - they're another descendant of John D. Rockefeller.

    -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:05 PM

    Q: "New info from where, reading your tarot cards?"

    let's not get snotty, you can perhaps find it online, maybe not, but I'm not, at this time, going to burn my source.

    ..and Joe, is absolutely correct. Multinational Corporations are unto themselves, as little countries. They know no borders, as we relate to them...and seem to avoid regulation. More than money, power is what they're after. They have their own alliances, some within themselves. they are at odds with political systems, that they haven't been able to fully corrupt. The ones they DO corrupt legislate laws in their favor, not the people who the 'representatives' are supposed to be representing...Oh, and that includes 'The Fed'..a private corporation!

    ....and by the way, should I find, through my sources, that my info, was in error, in part, or all, I WILL amend it, or retract....but as for now, it stands!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:13 PM

    Source, or forget it.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:25 PM

    I am blaming America for letting BP get itself into this situation.

    Just for the record: Not only is this statement idiotic, its assinine.
    And no, I've no intention of apoligizing.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:16 PM

    Greg F, that was an interesting quote- makes no sense at all.

    I don't think many Americans throw all the blame on BP, although it must be made responsible for its mistakes. BP, as operator, took shortcuts that they might not have taken if the MMS had been hard-headed and insisted on certain checks and procedures, especially since BP had been so lax as to collect fine after fine.
    Congresses past are largely responsible for the MMS failures; it looks like MMS will be much different in the future (closing the barn door after... and all that).

    BP (Too little information to comment on Transocean's responsibilities) may find it is a takeover target because of its losses because resulting from the drilling shortcuts and the massive settlements sure to come.

    One NY paper suggested that the Chinese might bid for BP, but I don't think they would buy into trouble. They have bought into Canadian and other companies and Sinopec is a major petroleum corporation on the world scene.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:51 PM

    "Greg F, that was an interesting quote- makes no sense at all." Q June 11, 11:16

    "I am blaming America for letting BP get itself into this situation." Arthur_itis June 11 1:34


    Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:24 AM

    What is this article on about. Is it suggesting mis-information from the Government?
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/11/eveningnews/main6573318.shtml?tag=stack

    Also this article, seems to suggest that the rig was not inspected regularly and that the last person to do an inspection was an apprentice Quote The last government inspection of the rig was on April 1 by Eric Neal, a government inspector who had only recently started his drilling inspection training, yet he was sent to the rig by himself to do the inspection. End of quote

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20007514-10391695.html?tag=stack


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 03:23 AM

    AoL news, APril 30.

    "Yet while both BP and Transocean have issued public apologies following the explosion and subsequent leak, the company that actually manufactured the BOP in place on Deepwater Horizon has remained curiously reticent about its role.

    Cameron International, formerly known as Cooper Cameron, is the worldwide leader in providing BOPs to offshore rigs, according to industry website RigZone. The Houston oil and gas systems company has been recognized by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers for creating the first blowout preventer of its kind, all the way back in 1922"

    Alice asserts above that US voices now attack Transocean as well as London based British Petroleum.   There appears to be some argument whether Cooper Cameron or Halliburton produced the blowout preventer that BP just leased. While some US voices criticise Halliburton or Cameron Cooper, the vast preponderance (and, so far as I have heard to date, all US politicians) attack the two non-US-based corporations - and have done so from times well before any indications of maladroit operational decisions by BP. It still looks like xenophobia to me.

    By the way I am very critical of the ethos of multinational companies - but I stop short of blaming them for what they have not done.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 03:30 AM

    BP has been operating maladroitly for 10 years.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 04:20 AM

    But it's not a matter of one nation against another - it's the people against the corporations. Corporate ethics seems to be at an all-time low, and the moderate-income and poor of the world are the victims.
    Americans have known since the days of Dick Cheney that Halliburton is corrupt, and Americans assume that almost all oil companies are corrupt. We didn't know about that Swiss drilling company - but it seems that they're corrupt, too.
    But we actually like the UK, and we often wish we had a President like that Tony Blair fellow....

    I'll get me coat....

    -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Howard Jones
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:11 AM

    Joe, it shouldn't be a question of one nation against the other, but that is what the politicians and some of the media seem to trying to stoke up.

    In today's Times newspaper there's a letter from someone just returned from New York describing how one TV station there linked the spill with a visit to the White House by Paul McCartney by asking why the President was "inviting the citizen of a country which has destroyed the planet".

    US politicians want to appear to be acting tough in a situation which they don't actually have any control over. I'm not saying they shouldn't be criticising BP (although at the moment the priority should be fixing the leak and cleaning up the mess - there will be plenty of time later to argue over who is to blame), it is the way they are specifically identifying it as a British company (when it is 44% American-owned and employs twice as many Americans as Brits) which is not going down well over here. It seems from the story I quoted above that some of the US media have already fallen for this line, so it's only a matter of time before ordinary Americans start to believe it too.

    As for Tony Blair, you're welcome to him.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 07:59 AM

    "it's not a matter of one nation against another - it's the people against the corporations"
    Yes...and the power and trust that nations put in these global companies, in a misguided belief that the corporate best interests are the same as the citizens best interests.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 10:13 AM

    Corporate ethics seems to be at an all-time low, and the moderate-income and poor of the world are the victims.

    And yet the moderate-income and poor of the U.S. of A. (read Tea-Baggers, Republicans et. al.) want to throw out of office the people who are attempting to do something to help them and put back in power the same assholes that created the mess in the first place.

    and the power and trust that nations put in these global companies

    "nations" can't put trust or anything else in corporations- its people- like the idiots above- that do.

    Are Piaget's stages of development taught in schoolsany longer, I wonder??


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:32 AM

    Americans work for BP, and Americans have investment in BP for their retirement, just as millions of people around the world.
    BP is not being "attacked". BP is RESPONSIBLE for a disaster and is being held responsible for what they have done.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

    "People against corporations"- the old nonsense appears in yet another thread. Most of us depend on corporations for our employment, our savings funds, our products, our homes- in fact for our material possessions and the income to possess them.

    Whether the corporations are large, like Apple, Exxon, MacDonalds- corporate value in the billions- or small like that of the immigrant who employs 10 salesmen and a few others in the business end of his furniture shop, or the successful musician, his agent, driver, etc.or the plumber shop or whatever- corporate value a few million- is immaterial, our life is corporate life.

    And every decade through the last 150 years more and more people are able to live a comfortable life.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:57 PM

    "In today's Times newspaper there's a letter from someone just returned from New York describing how one TV station there linked the spill with a visit to the White House by Paul McCartney by asking why the President was "inviting the citizen of a country which has destroyed the planet".


    arrrrgghhhhhh! Do you actually believe that? Unless this letter writer came up with a TV station or show where this allegedly happened, I don't believe it for one gd moment. People are insane.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM

    "Our life is corporate life"

    This doesn't mean corporations are an unmitigated good, or that whatever they want to do is good for all of us. Multinationals are not the all-seeing, all-knowing benefactors of mankind you make out. They do a lot of terrible things in the name of profit, and the governments that they buy with their campaign donations sit idly by while they ruin people's lives and the environment.

    Most Americans work either for the government, or small businesses, not corporations.

    Real wages have declined quite a bit since 1980 in the United States, due in no small part to the practices of large corporations such as offshoring jobs, restructuring to get rid of well-paid employees, etc.

    Your bleary-eyed worship of corporations is ill-founded. Unless you're among the megarich.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Stringsinger
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 02:46 PM

    Of course there are bigots in the U.S. congress as there are in the House of Commons or House of Lords. They're everywhere.

    B.P. is a criminal. This implicates Tony Hayward. They've destroyed America's coastline by cutting corners and hiring incompetents. I don't think all Brits want to be associated with B.P. just as most sane American's don't.

    This thread is bogus. It assumes that because Americans are down on BP, they are down on Brits. Not true and insulting.

    Goldman Sachs or AIG are American companies and many Americans are down on them,
    and justifiably so.

    The Multinationals are the new "countries" who are calling the shots (literally and figuratively) throughout the world. They need to be "trust-busted". They have taken over both the U.S. and the U.K. and it's time for citizens to reclaim their respective countries (but please, not like Rand Paul).


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 03:35 PM

    Small businesses here are incorporated (Canada), and the same in the States.

    When I retired, I wanted to work as a consultant, and the first thing I did was incorporate my company. Legally in business I became "Joe Blow" Professional Corporation under the laws of the province.
    All professionals working independently or employing assistants or in partnership incorporate their business.

    It puts the incorporated business separate from the personal effects- home and possessions, etc.- of the individual and/or associates, and is necessary for legal and tax purposes.

    Corporations, large or small, may or may not be good corporate citizens; many of us look on BP as a bad one but that should not be a blanket condemnation of all corporations.

    To incorporate in the province of Alberta, this government website gives the essentials-
    Government Alberta Corporations


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:45 PM

    Of course, there are ethical corporations, Q. Most of us are smart enough to know that, and we shouldn't have to explain that every time we say something. There are good corporations and there are corrupt corporations, and that has always been the case.
    Still, there seems to have been a downturn in corporate ethics in the last thirty years, at the same time that politicians have tended to deify corporations.
    I think it started with the Reagan-Thatcher economics of the 1980s, when the Conventional Wisdom dictated that business could do no wrong and government could do nothing right. As a result, those nasty government controls were relaxed, and business was allowed to do what it does best - become corrupt (I suppose the same is true for government: without control, it becomes corrupt). So, we have had one huge corporate scandal after another since the 1980s.
    Barack Obama is a ray of hope for many of us, but it has yet to be seen whether he can do anything to stem the corporate corruption of the last thirty years. Then again, many of us once thought that Tony Blair was a ray of hope....

    -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:08 PM

    I hope it's not too long......

    Common delusions notwithstanding, the United States, I submit, is not a democracy – by which is meant a system in which the will of the people prevails. Rather it is a curious mechanism artfully designed to circumvent the will of the people while appearing to be democratic. Several mechanisms accomplish this.

    First, we have two identical parties which, when elected, do very much the same things. Thus the election determines not policy but only the division of spoils. Nothing really changes. The Democrats will never seriously reduce military spending, nor the Republicans, entitlements.

    Second, the two parties determine on which questions we are allowed to vote. They simply refuse to engage the questions that matter most to many people. If you are against affirmative action, for whom do you vote? If you regard the schools as abominations? If you want to end the president's hobbyist wars?

    Third, there is the effect of large jurisdictions. Suppose that you lived in a very small (and independent) school district and didn't like the curriculum. You could buttonhole the head of the school board, whom you would probably know, and say, "Look, Jack, I really think…." He would listen.

    But suppose that you live in a suburban jurisdiction of 300,000. You as an individual mean nothing. To affect policy, you would have to form an organization, canvass for votes, solicit contributions, and place ads in newspapers. This is a fulltime job, prohibitively burdensome.

    The larger the jurisdiction, the harder it is to exert influence. Much policy today is set at the state level. Now you need a statewide campaign to change the curriculum. Practically speaking, it isn't practical.

    Fourth are impenetrable bureaucracies. A lot of policy is set by making regulations at some department or other, often federal. How do you call the Department of Education to protest a rule which is in fact a policy? The Department has thousands of telephones, few of them listed, all of which will brush you off. There is nothing the public can do to influence these goiterous, armored, unaccountable centers of power.

    Yes, you can write your senator, and get a letter written by computer, "I thank you for your valuable insights, and assure you that I am doing all…."

    Fifth is the invisible bureaucracy (which is also impenetrable). A few federal departments get at least a bit of attention from the press, chiefly State and Defense (sic). Most of the government gets no attention at all – HUD, for example. Nobody knows who the Secretary of HUD is, or what the department is doing. Similarly, the textbook publishers have some committee whose name I don't remember (See? It works) that decides what words can be used in texts, how women and Indians must be portrayed, what can be said about them, and so on. Such a group amounts to an unelected ministry of propaganda and, almost certainly, you have never heard of it.

    Sixth, there is the illusion of journalism. The newspapers and networks encourage us to think of them as a vast web of hard-hitting, no-holds-barred, chips-where-they-may inquisitors of government: You can run, but you can't hide. In fact federal malefactors don't have to run or hide. The press isn't really looking.

    Most of press coverage is only apparent. Television isn't journalism, but a service that translates into video stories found in the Washington Post and New York Times (really). Few newspapers have bureaus in Washington; the rest follow the lead of a small number of major outlets. These don't really cover things either.

    When I was reporting on the military, there were (if memory serves) many hundreds of reporters accredited to the Pentagon, or at least writing about the armed services. It sounds impressive: All those gimlet eyes.

    What invariably happened though was that some story would break – a toilet seat alleged to cost too much, or the failure of this or that. All the reporters would chase the toilet seat, fearful that their competitors might get some detail they didn't. Thus you had one story covered six hundred times. In any event the stories were often dishonest and almost always ignorant because reporters, apparently bound by some natural law, are obligate technical illiterates. This includes the reporters for the Post and the Times.

    Seventh, and a bit more subtle, is the lack of centers of demographic power in competition with the official government. The Catholic Church, for example, once influentially represented a large part of the population. It has been brought to heel. We are left with government by lobby – the weapons industry, big pharma, AIPAC, the teachers unions – whose representatives pay Congress to do things against the public interest.

    Eighth, we are ruled not by a government but by a class. Here the media are crucial. Unless you spend time outside of America, you may not realize to what extent the press is controlled. The press is largely free, yes, but it is also largely owned by a small number of corporations which, in turn, are run by people from the same pool from which are drawn high-level pols and their advisers. They are rich people who know each other and have the same interests. It is very nearly correct to say that these people are the government of the United States, and that the federal apparatus merely a useful theatrical manifestation.

    Finally, though it may not be deliberate, the schools produce a pitiably ignorant population that can't vote wisely. Just as trial lawyers don't want intelligent jurors, as they are harder to manipulate, so political parties don't want educated voters. The existence of a puzzled mass gawping at Oprah reduces elections to popularity contests modulated by the state of the economy. One party may win, yes, or the other. But a TV-besotted electorate doesn't meddle in matters important to its rulers. It has never heard of them.

    To disguise all of this, elections provide the excitement and intellectual content of a football game, without the importance. They allow a sense of Participation. In bars across the land, in high-school gyms become forums, people become heated about what they imagine to be decisions of great import: This candidate or that? It keeps them from feeling left out while denying them power.

    It is fraud. In a sense, the candidates do not even exist. A presidential candidate consists of two speechwriters, a makeup man, a gestures coach, ad agency, two pollsters and an interpreter of focus groups. Depending on his numbers, the handlers may suggest a more fixed stare to crank up his decisiveness quotient for male or Republican voters, or dial in a bit of compassion for a Democratic or female audience. The newspapers will report this calculated transformation. Yet it works. You can fool enough of the people enough of the time.

    When people sense this and decline to vote, we cluck like disturbed hens and speak of apathy. Nope. Just common sense.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:30 AM

    Credit where credit is due, GfS.

    That above article Copyright © 2008 Fred Reed.

    From http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed139.html.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:32 AM

    I didn't sign it, did I??

    But it is right on!

    >>>>>GFS<<<<<<<


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:24 AM

    sheesh And here I was thinking that Sanity Guest had finally taken the time to be coherent. Thanks, Don.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:41 AM

    Thanks again Don - I was getting worried that I was going to agree with some parts of something Fugitive from Sanity said.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:58 AM

    Anybody on the in concerning Cameron Obama phone call?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:26 AM

    Coherent?..Here, let's be very plain about it. Thinking between the lines doesn't seem to be one of your leading traits!

    The two polarizations, that are oppressing this nation of people, happen to be, the product of propaganda, opposed by myself, and eloquently written by Fred Reed. He gets it, I get it...and so do you!
    At what point do you stop running into the arms of those feeding you that line of crap, that, because of some self imposed trap, you can't let go of??...and running away from the truth....WHICH YOU JUST RECOGNIZED!!!!

    You would, and have said, and done anything, to discredit either myself, or ANYONE, and diverting everyone's attention away. Away from someone who is, and has been calling you on your bullshit!
    ALL this to avoid you accepting, that the polarization, and anger in this country, on both sides, which you have chosen one, has you pitting the very VICTIMS of this fraud, against each other!

    How far does it have to get before your jaw drops open, as you gasp, "Oh, my God, their shooting at each other, in the streets?"..or, are you going to 'intellectualize' about it, even when you windows are rattling??

    Maybe that's your goal, but I, for one oppose ANYTHING of this sort, and am doing, and will do everything I can, to disarm it, and the stupidity that brings it!...on here, in music, and in my daily life's dealings! STOP FEEDING IT!!

    As I've said before, and I'm sorry..I just can't remember where I first heard it, "SNAP NOW, AND AVOID THE RUSH!!"

    Clear and coherent enough??? ....Got too much personal and bull shit clogging your filters?

    Rethink....your political mantras ..and who fed you that crap!..and why!

    Most Sincerely,
    Guest from Sanity


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Howard Jones
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 07:23 AM

    Ebbie, why shouldn't I believe it? It sounds like just the sort of dumb question a TV journalist would ask. The person who wrote the letter was on holiday with his wife - I doubt he noticed or cared what channel or what programme it was on, but he noticed the comment, and a growing anti-British sentiment in the media.

    No one is accusing the American people of being anti-British. The criticism is of a number of politicians who appear to have been deliberately and repeatedly making the point by referring to BP as "British Petroleum" that it is a British company. Although they deny being anti-British as well, the sub-text is there. If they keep repeating it, that subliminal message will start to get across to ordinary Americans.

    In fairness, some of our own politicians have been making an issue of this too, which is equally unhelpful. But the issue is causing some concern here - not because we defend BP, which has handled both the event and the aftermath badly, but because of the possible damage to US-UK relations.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 07:50 AM

    Ok here is a link to 'BP oil spill: Obama comments 'not anti-British' for what it's worth.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10303619.stm


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:00 AM

    ""Well, they agreed to pay for all legitimate claims, "legitimate" being a weasel word which one can fully expect to be used to dodge out of claims that any number of observers might think are "legitimate".""

    So what do you want them to do then Mousethief?

    Pay out for some Kansas farmer who claims the spill hs ruined his fields?

    Of course they'll only pay claims for damage that actually happened i.e. "legitimate claims"

    It's a no brainer, and it's more than US insurance companies do.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:06 AM

    ""Actually BP is not a British Company. The B does not stand for British any more, it stands for B - the name was changed from British Petroleum a few years ago. There are probably as many American investors in the company as there are British.""

    Actually it is 40 percent British, 39 percent American, and 21 percent unspecified others, according to info from the BBC yesterday.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:19 AM

    ""Furthermore, the drilling is a lot deeper, than just 5000 feet below the surface of the water. It penetrates up to 30,000 feet below the ocean floor! They believe they have penetrated the earth's mantel.""

    Wow! GfS rewrites geology.

    30,000 feet is 10 Kilometres, which could possibly penetrate the very edge of the upper mantle. However this depth would be insufficient except in a tiny percentage of the worlds surface area, and in any case would be many kilometres short of the mantle proper.

    I think GfS, that you would know if the mantle had been penetrated, as they would have been fighting a vocanic eruption, not a bloody oil spill.

    How do you propose that oil would exist in molten rock?

    Just gets dafter and dafter.
    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:27 AM

    ""and to answer Ebbster's questions, which is related, in a way, the EPA data was leaked, you might find more about it online, however I'd rather not divulge that, at this time.""

    I'll just bet you would rather not, or more accurately, rather cannot.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

    ""we often wish we had a President like that Tony Blair fellow....""

    You should have said Joe. By 2005 we would have happily given him to you, and thrown in Gordon Brown free of charge,   WITH GREEN STAMPS!

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM

    ""Americans work for BP, and Americans have investment in BP for their retirement, just as millions of people around the world.
    BP is not being "attacked". BP is RESPONSIBLE for a disaster and is being held responsible for what they have done.
    ""

    Yes Alice, BP is responsible, and accepted that responsibility long before American politicians started talking about "kicking ass".

    Can you explain what you find useful in the idea of whipping a horse that is already going in the direction you want, at the best pace of which it is capable.

    When RB started this thread I thought he was being paranoid, but there is one thing about which he is indubitably correct.

    Your politicians and your news media are accentuating the "British" Petroleum increasingly, and it simply cannot be passed off as accidental.

    Remember how the Shrub emphasised Iraq in connection with 9/11, until many Americans thought that the USA was invading Iraq because Saddam was responsible for 9/11?

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:01 PM

    Don T "30,000 feet is 10 Kilometres, which could possibly penetrate the very edge of the upper mantle. However this depth would be insufficient except in a tiny percentage of the worlds surface area, and in any case would be many kilometres short of the mantle proper."

    That's ri-i-i-ght!

    In other words, this thing is worse than being reported!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:10 PM

    BP, in their own website, states "We are the largest non-US company on the New York Stock Exchange." Their head office, and legal operations, are handled from there.
    Stock ownership does not determine the ownership of a company, unless it has control of the Board and legal operations.

    All this posted above.

    Stock Ownership 44% UK, 39% US; Institutional ownership 33% UK, 25% US, rest individuals.
    Also posted above.

    Stock ownership may be changing rapidly as many are divesting their portfolios of BP stock and reflected by the current low stock value.
    ------------------------

    The well has drilled into sediments below thick salt layers and rock which formed an effective seal, trapping the oil and gas, and leading to high gas pressure, leading to the danger of blowouts.
    The mantle is not involved; at this location it is much deeper.
    Temperatures are high, however, also leading to high gas pressures.

    Several companies have drilled test wells into these sediments below the salt layers; it is risky because if something goes wrong or there is carelessness, blowout like BP's may occur and corrective measures are experimental or poorly tested.
    --------------------------------------

    BP used to be called British Petroleum; as they increasingly operated all over the world, the Board decided the name should be simply BP. Of course many people still call the company 'British Petroleum'. So what? Not important.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:12 PM

    Handled from there should read- handled from the London headquarters.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:25 PM

    ""The mantle is not involved; at this location it is much deeper.
    Temperatures are high, however, also leading to high gas pressures.
    ""

    Did you get that GfS. Given the averages involved, it was a racing certainty that such would be the case, since the thinnest parts of the crust would be concentrated at the edges of the emerging tectonic plates, none of which are anywhere near the drilling sites, being concentrated in the Pacific "Ring of Fire", and the Atlantic "Mid Ocean Ridge". The Carribean and the Gulf of Mexico would presumably be closer to the subduction zone at the other edge of the plate, where the crust would be thicker.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Stringsinger
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM

    "Common delusions notwithstanding, the United States, I submit, is not a democracy"

    There is no pure democracy anywhere but there are tendencies that are apparent in some countries, more than others.

    "First, we have two identical parties which, when elected, do very much the same things."

    Not historically. The Party of FDR was considerably different than that of G.W. Bush.

    "But suppose that you live in a suburban jurisdiction of 300,000. You as an individual mean nothing. To affect policy, you would have to form an organization, canvass for votes, solicit contributions, and place ads in newspapers. This is a fulltime job, prohibitively burdensome."

    Burdensome, perhaps but well worth the effort. This is how grass-roots issues become national policy. This is true democracy albeit not "pure".

    "Fourth are impenetrable bureaucracies."

    Not totally. They are porous when world situations change such as the policies of the Pentagon during the Vietnam War.

    "Fifth is the invisible bureaucracy"

    Again, not totally. It is incumbent as a citizen to know who is who in these bureaucracies and to advertise their misdeeds. This has and can be done.

    "Sixth, there is the illusion of journalism."

    Most mainstream media are corporate controlled. But there are other wonderful voices to be relied upon such as Amy Goodman on Democracy, Now. There are also certain blogs and magazines that tell the truth. Again, it's up to an informed citizenry to find them.

    "Seventh, and a bit more subtle, is the lack of centers of demographic power in competition with the official government."

    This may be a good thing. Centralized power can sometimes be dictatorial whereas a displacement of various power sources can get things done particularly on a local level.
    Sometimes coalitions of power groups can be successful in instituting public policy.

    "Eighth, we are ruled not by a government but by a class."

    People are not ruled by any institution if they choose not to be. We are seeing that today in the grass-roots although some of that is misguided such as the so-called "Tea Party" which is corporate sponsored. On an individual level, a person doesn't have to buy in to the prevailing views of any administration of government. There can be still in this country countervailing group influences. We are not totally a fascist country yet.

    "Finally, though it may not be deliberate, the schools produce a pitiably ignorant population that can't vote wisely."

    This depends on the school. Education has suffered a set-back in its ability to get students to think, but young people can sometimes overcome this and can find support for their dissent in certain schools. We see this on Berkeley campuses and other institutions where the students question the prevailing authorities.

    "When people sense this and decline to vote, we cluck like disturbed hens and speak of apathy. Nope. Just common sense."

    There is nothing commonsensical about not voting. The idea of democracy is predicated on the importance of the process. Obama's election, regardless of his betrayal in his administration, represented a willingness of the electorate to want to improve the government from what it had under Bush. This can happen again.

    When the government is not working especially well, there is always a tendency to say that it will never work well. This is not historically true. Often world events will dictate that repairs must be made as in the case of say FDR during the Depression. One can criticize FDR on many levels but overall, there was an improvement in the way government worked under his administration. Even the war-mongering Johnson got us a Civil Rights Act with Thurgood Marshall.

    It's fashionable today to take a Libertarian view that government never works. There is no substantial proof of this, however, historically. The evidence points in the opposite direction. When Wall Street becomes unregulated, economic chaos ensues. That's what caused the Great Depression.

    Today's "critics" look to a under-achiever policy, if it isn't perfect than why bother?   It's easy to take that view but not responsible. As citizens we have the responsibility to know what's going on and attempt to change it if we think it's wrong. The arm-chair cop-out is to sit back and throw darts.

    I, for one, am not totally disillusioned about our government and the problems of power and policy. Sometimes it's important to read about the stuff that isn't in the accepted history books such as the role of labor. It has been counted down and out only by those
    who don't have the information or have other agendas to know what's really going on.

    In short, there are alternative methods for getting newsworthy information without succumbing to corporate mainstream media.

    Hey, Mudcat is one.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM

    I am a news "junkie". I wake up to NPR news. I listen to the non-commercial radio news on National Public Radio, which includes BBC news at night. I usually have tv news on in the background while I work, which is CNN, MSNBC, non-commercial Public Broadcasting System, which includes BBC, CSPAN, and I check numerous news web sites during the day, BBC, Pravda, and Reporters Without Borders, covering world news, at

    http://en.rsf.org/ Reporters Sans Frontieres

    Most Americans I think are just trying to get through the day. They may not be very well informed about what is going on in the world, as putting food on the table and keeping the rent or mortgage paid is their main focus. Most Americans don't vote, unfortunately. Most do not have work schedules that allow them to keep up on daily news from sources around the world.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:47 PM

    If one is uninformed, one either doesn't care, or doesn't look.

    BBC, of course, is on many cable systems, we get it 24 hours a day.
    The internet has too many news sources to list.
    A few I look at semi-regularly-

    South China Morning Post- one in today's news- "Britain is cracking down on corruption among British companies worldwide..." May have far-reaching impact on Hong Kong and mainland firms-

    Al Jazeera- A report that Pakistan's Intelligence Service (ISI) backs Taliban- analysis of a paper from London School of Economics. Causing worry to US forces.

    Arizona Republic- various articles about Bill 1070 and its effects on legal immigrants and citizens. Many are worried, some are angered about being harrassed because they are darker-skinned. The Tucson police chief is worried that Sheriff Arapaio, etc., are causing conditions that may lead to riots. Some Hispanics are considering moving to another state.

    London Times- BP is considering putting several billions into a ring-fenced cleanup fund to appease Americans

    Where is the PB chairman, Carl-Henric Svenberg? He has been silent.
    He should be active in the disaster.

    BP was worth only $73 billion on Friday. It is vulnerable to takeover by Exxon-Mobil, Chevron, etc. Unlikely until after things quiet down and the gusher controlled.

    and so on- anything and everything is available


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:00 PM

    Carl-Henric Svanberg, the new BP chairman, has been summoned to a meeting with Pres. Obama.

    He has been chief executive of Ericsson Telecommunications. He is on the board of "9 different organizations across 12 different industries" -Bloomberg Business Week.

    Annual Compensation from Ericsson was 17 million Kroner.
    Degree from Uppsala (and a couple of honorary doctorates.

    Not versed in the oil business.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM

    PB has put forth this image of Svanberg-
    Svanberg

    Those eyes-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM

    Sorry- didn't work. Probably can be found through www.bp.com

    Andy Inglis, Board member (Pembroke College, Cambridge, engineering) is Chief Executive, Exploration and Production. Earlier, had led BP's deepwater Gulf of Mexico exploration, 1997-1999, before moving to US natural gas business. Tony Heyward was his predecessor as CE, Exp.&Prod.

    Haven't heard anything from him, either.

    There are 13 Board members, plus the Chairman.

    Two Board Members are American, or former Americans.

    Robert Dudley, BP Managing Director, is American. Amoco beginning.

    Dr. Byron Grote, Chief Financial Officer, has a PhD in chemistry, Cornell Univ. Standard Oil of Ohio and Kennicott Mining positions in his early history, BP since 1988 (Alaskan area originally).

    Cynthia Caroll (Canadian, now British?) started with Amoco; currently a director also with DeBeers sa and Anglo Platinum Ltd; former chief executive of Anglo American plc.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM

    Svanberg photo at BP.com


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM

    Whew. Wouldn't want to get in *his* way. :)


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

    Thanks, Alice.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM

    the teachers unions – whose representatives pay Congress to do things against the public interest.

    When did teachers and other union members stop being members of the public?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:07 PM

    Oil spill casts doubts on deep water exploration

    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international-business/Oil-spill-casts-doubts-on-deep-water-exploration/articleshow/604


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Uncle Rumpo
    Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:37 PM

    blame who they like,
    claim as much $$$$$$$$$$ compensation off BP as they like,

    but some disgustingly ruthless greedy power crazed yanks
    long time ago decided
    drilling in a world valued eco environment beauty spot
    would be a splendidly profitable good idea....


    live by the oil
    die by the oil...


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 12:40 AM

    A few posts ago, I posted that the amount of oil leaking was MUCH higher than being reported. I also said, that this is not going to go away soon, and as time goes on, more of the story will come out. Since then the reports have been modified TWICE, within a couple of days, like I said. Now, they're saying it is up to 400,000 barrels a day...though the figure is still higher..much higher. Just thought I'd point that out...to all my naysayer critics!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 12:53 AM

    BP hires mercenaries to hide the evidence

    More about the coverup


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 01:13 AM

    300!
    Thank you CarolC!
    As to the toxins, I also posted that, too.
    More will come out....watch!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:36 AM

    http://www.democracynow.org./2010/6/9/years_of_internal_bp_probes_warned


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:09 AM

    I understand that members of Congress are slowly starting to question the practices of US based big oil too, and that a pattern is emerging that none are any better placed than BP to deal with a blowout like this one.

    Tiddley-pom.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:16 AM

    Once again, CarolC, thank you!! Very interesting video!....and it brought up several items I previously posted, about multinational corporations(BP), having larger budgets than most countries, and they are likened to 'countries' of their own...and how they can thumb their nose, at our government, and the EPA. Again, I posted that this is "the corporation machine versus the political machine"...and yet they have corrupted each other, and the PEOPLE are their victims..and we virtually have no say! On top of that, they both are lying through their teeth, to us!

    You go girl!!!!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:18 AM

    Incidentally, BP PLC (that stands for "Public Limited Company" is incorporated and exists under and in accordance with the laws of England and Wales. It was incorporated in 1909, and its registered number is 00102498. Its registered office is in London (it also happens to be its head office but that is not the point). It was incorporated as "the British Petroleum Company Ltd". It became a PLC when that status became available as a matter of law.   It changed its name to   BP Amoco PLC in 1998 and to BP PLC in 2001.

    It is an English company, regardless of who owns the shares or who the directors are, or who by any means controls it.

    Is that clear now?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: beardedbruce
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:36 AM

    Present reports from US government sources are 35,000 to 60,000 barrels per day.


    Previous estimate was 40,000 barrels per day.

    Before that ,it was various numbers, starting at 5,000 barrels per day, then 10,000, then 20,000.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM

    The volume of the emissions is nothing to do with who is to blame for them. All very dreadful, and a waste too, and when are Transocean, Halliburton, and Cameron-Cooper going to step up to the plate?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:18 AM

    Bruce: "Present reports from US government sources are 35,000 to 60,000 barrels per day.
    Previous estimate was 40,000 barrels per day.
    Before that ,it was various numbers, starting at 5,000 barrels per day, then 10,000, then 20,000."

    Sounds like an auction!
    When the truth, of IF the truth comes out, Bruce, the numbers will stagger your imagination!

    If it is a Government report, you can count on it being a lie!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: beardedbruce
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

    GTS,

    What, you don't think Obama is telling the truth???

    I have been informed that whatever he says is true.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

    Is that clear now?

    Clear as crystal. But what's not clear is why the fuck it matters. If a company has done wrong, it will be called on the carpet, even if it's duly registered in Antarctica.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:46 PM

    You want to make sure you have your units straight. I've heard all sorts of wildly varying reports on how much oil is pouring into the Gulf. Some reports say "barrels" and some reports say "gallons."

    So you might want to be clear on what units you're talking about.

    Some folks want to make it sound like a piddliig amount, others want to make it sound like it's a cataclysm of galactic proportions. Each for their own reasons. So. . . .

    Me? No axe to grind. I'm just waiting for something definitive.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:06 PM

    It's relevant, mousie, because too many US commentators are trying to pass the buck to BP, and in the absence of any good reason it can only be because of xenophobia.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:32 PM

    BP has stated they are responsible for damages. There is no passing the buck.

    Quote from today:
    Mr. Svanberg apologized "to the American people" for the disaster and said that BP would "look after the people affected, and we will repair the damage to this region and the economy."
    (New York Times report)


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM

    C'mon, Richard.

    No "passing the buck" and no "xenophobia" on the part of the vast majority of Americans. Many Americans would be just as angry at Exxon, Shell (Dutch owned), Standard Oil, or Uncle Charlie and his brace-and-bit if they had caused this.

    In the Exxon-Valdez oil spill in Prince William Sound, the spill was blamed on Exxon. Sure, it was a drunken captain who was the direct cause of the disaster, but it was still the responsibility of Exxon to see that their tankers had competent crews. The captain had a record of drinking and negligence, but Exxon still kept him on. He was a disaster looking for a place to happen. So Exxon was ultimately responsible.

    And it was a BP executive who ordered the drilling crew to speed up the drilling, while the crew argued that it would be unsafe to do so, anticipating what might—and did—happen. The executive was adamant and insisted. Short of mutiny, there was little the drilling crew could do.

    BP is ultimately responsible. The fact that BP stands of "British Petroleum" is beside the point. Nobody holds the British people responsible.

    The idea that there is bigotry involved is just plain silly.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM

    BP has put (?) $20 billion in a fund for relief- we don't know what kind of oversight there will be or how payments will be made.

    BP has also suspended dividends for the year.

    Don, flow estimates are 30,000 to 60,000 bbl/day, from various sources within university science and engineering departments; BP talks of soon capturing 30,000 bbl/day.
    A barrel contains 42 US gallons.
    The European standard is tonnes, but most reports use the barrel, or translate into gallons.
    (millions make my eyes glaze)

    The apologist, Richard Bridge, if he likes the company so much, may soon be able to buy it with pocket change. The suspension of dividends is lowering the share price again (at $31.50 the last time I looked today and as low as $29.58).


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

    I think it's time to buy Richard a tinfoil hat.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM

    "Nobody holds the British people responsible."

    I'm sure, and to prove it here's Some BP guy with a comedy American accent

    ;0)

    I don't really care either way. But this guys appalling accent did me in!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM

    The BBC, a couple of nights ago, showed the BP sunflower(?) shedding leaves.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:59 PM

    When BP itself has accepted responsibility for it, how can you go on ranting like that?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:06 PM

    Svanberg's obviously a bigot!!! Man The Barricades!!!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:21 PM

    Those Americans are being so mean! Doggone them! At least, the British press says so. And they should know. There's no indication of it in the American press, which you'd think would be joining in the Brit-bashing if it were an anti-Brit free-for-all. But maybe it's a cover-up conspiracy. Yeah, that's it. If any American newspaper or cable news show or anything looks like it's about to say anything that might spill the beans about our increasing hatred of the United Kingdom, they are hushed by the fellows in the black helicopters and the designer shades.

    Anybody? 50p / 25¢ will go a long way toward buying a roll of aluminum foil. (Buy a man a tinfoil hat and you keep him safe from ionizing brain rays for a day. Buy him a roll of aluminum foil and you keep him safe for weeks, easily.)


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Tootler
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM

    ...US commentators are trying to pass the buck to BP

    They are not passing the buck. BP are responsible for the current oil spill off the US coast nor are BP denying it.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:41 PM

    Svanberg probably wishes that he had stayed with Ericsson.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Charley Noble
    Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:32 PM

    Has no one suggested marching the GP executives down to the shore and tossing them in to sink or swim in their own oil spill? Why should the pelicans and other sea creatures have all the fun?

    Charley Noble


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 01:38 AM

    Don't be silly. Svanberg is saying what he has to say - the confession of a defendant in a show trial.

    Tootler, read my explanation above about liability for sub-contractors. The principal has liability for the negligent choice of subcontractor - and hence the liability of Exxonn for the Exxonn Valdez.

    BP were (IMHO) not negligent to subcontract to Transocean, Halliburton, or Cameron-Cooper. They may be liable for their own instructions, if negligent (in general there is usually no strict liability for being wrong, merely liability for being negligent) but at the time the US commentators started hounding BP (and, in the case of Obama, specifically calling it "British Petroleum") there was no knowledge of any (alleged) BP negligence. It was a hanging jury.

    Do the drilling permissions granted to BP make BP strictly liable for all spillage resulting from the permitted operation? If so BP are liable. Does some other principle of applicable law make BP strictly liable for all spillage resulting from the permitted operation? If so BP are liable.

    If not then (a) BP are only liable if THEIR fault can be shown and (b) the lawyers who drafted the drilling licences for the relevant US authority were (probably) negligent. I had a partner once who used to negotiate and draft drilling licences for some small countries not all that far from the affected area in this case.

    BP are probably capitalist sociopaths from top to bottom, but that itself does not make them liable, and baying after them because they are an English company not only does not make them liable but is wrong in principle. Their nationality is and shouldbe regarded as a matter of irrelevance. That is not what is happening.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 01:47 AM

    The spill is ultimately BP's fault, because the circumnavigated the inspections. They complied with 6 out of 21, points of safety precautions. Had they done all 21, this would not have happened.

    The administration is responsible for the foot dragging, to take care of it. The President should have called for a Federal disaster, early on. He didn't. That is ultimately his fault. Within 24 hours of the spill Norway, offered help, being as they were familiar with those problems up in the North Sea. Obama turned it down. The Netherlands offered help; he turned it down.

    Two things that caught my attention, consistent with what I've been a tellin' you. Obama turned International offers of help down, for whatever reason(we can all speculate as to why), but whatever the reason, perhaps he should 'cool it' when he goes abroad and spouts off with apologies, because 'America is arrogant'. He is pretty damn arrogant, himself!

    The other thing, that I heard on the 'news' today, and you can all hear it, is after the meeting at the White House, the BP chairman, Carl-Henric Svanberg, comes out, and addresses the people affected by the oil spill, saying he is going to pay for the damages, but uses the term, ' the little people' when referring to them!..PARDON ME???

    To me, as I've posted before, that shows a contempt, and a 'looking down your nose' attitude toward folks, who are not one of his 'elite' class....just as the political elite disregard their constituents!

    We are getting it from both sides! That being said, the Republicans are making hay of this whole sordid affair..BUT..they still have offered NOTHING for people to vote FOR, other than voting AGAINST the Democrat incumbents...which looks like a slam dunk. THIS IS STUPID!!

    It should be obvious to even the most challenged observer, that this doesn't work. We just went through that with Bush..and look what we got!

    Okay, enough for my 2 cents worth. I could go on, but some numb-nut will jump up, and frantically foaming at the mouth accuse me of being a bigot-homophobe-hater-of butterflies, and lady bugs!...and whale killer!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM

    Richard, in all of the coverage I've seen of this disaster (and I've seen a lot), I have never seen anyone focusing on the idea of BP supposedly being a British company, or being "English". All of the criticism I have seen has been direct their being a huge corporation that is guilty of serial criminal negligence. That's all. Nothing whatever about Britishness or Englishness. Nobody really gives a flying fuck where BP are from. We're too busy worrying about our fucking Gulf of Mexico, and our fucking Mississippi Delta and all of our fucking pristine wetlands that are being fucking destroyed by an evil fucking criminally negligent fucking behemoth of a corporation. You really need to get off of this "bigotry" jag that you're on, because it's making you look a total prat.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:01 AM

    "...because they are an English company not only does not make them liable but is wrong in principle. Their nationality is and should be regarded as a matter of irrelevance. That is not what is happening"

    But don't you see, Richard, that you are the one who persists in labeling them as English?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:10 AM

    And on top of all of that, Richard, on top of all of that, BP are forbidding any of the people whose livelihood they have destroyed, and who are now forced to work for BP cleaning up their mess just in order to survive, they are forbidding these people to wear protective gear or they will be fired. So people are getting sick. Thousands of people are having their health ruined because B fucking P doesn't want to look bad and they don't want anyone to think that their mess is dangerous to people. These people belong in jail. For the rest of their lives. And with you not only defending them, but attacking anyone who is pissed off about this, makes you look like you don't give a flying fuck what happens to any of the people whose lives have been destroyed and will be destroyed by their criminal negligence. You should go to work for BP. You've got what it takes to fit right into their corporate culture.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:11 AM

    Even though 'BP' stands for 'British Petroleum', it is a multi-national conglomerate. So let's not be too trigger happy with resentment toward the Brits, nor are they 'bigoted', like some of the mentally challenged on here, like to spew. Also does, Carl-Henric Svanberg, sound like a British name???

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:14 AM

    Who's showing resentment toward "the Brits", GfS?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:15 AM

    ...and who's accusing them of bigotry?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:28 AM

    Sorry CarolC!! I was going by past posts, on this thread. You've been cool!
    Also, "US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)" just shows some irrationality, on either or one side of the pond.

    Shit happens, and there is culpability on both sides!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM

    There's definitely culpability on both sides. But to try to characterize people's anger at BP as being bigotry towards the British is just cruel. We're angry at Bush, too, and I'm not particularly happy with Obama right now for letting BP continue to call all of the shots, and most people in the US are always pissed off with Haliburton (who, in this case, appear to have been actually trying to be responsible, as much as it pains me to say it). But calling us bigots because we're also pissed off with BP, and telling us we should be pissed off with everyone else except BP. That's totally out of line, and shows an incredible lack of compassion for the people whose lives are being destroyed, and lack of concern for the damage that's being done to our environment.

    And to characterize Obama, who resides in the back pocket of BP, as being too tough on them is just ludicrous.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:58 AM

    Fugitive from Sanity, I have carefully explained, above, exactly why BP is an English company.

    It takes little or no searching to find many Americans, from Obama down, referring to BP as "British Petroleum" (which is no longer their name) and emphasising BP's headquarters in St James, London (England). Since those things are irrelevant to BP's liability or responsibility (often not the same thing) why are they emphasised save as a matter of prejudice?

    The vast preponderance of utterances from the USA focus on BP - and few on Transocean, Halliburton, or Cameron-Cooper, whose products actually failed in use. Why should that be so save as a matter of prejudice.

    By all means condemn BP if and to the extent that it is guilty, but not because it is English.

    I should appreciate an authority for the allegation that BP is prohibiting cleanup workers from wearing necessary protective clothing. If they were subject to English law in respect of those acts (they are not, since the alleged acts occur outside the jurisdiction) that would itself be an offence under health and safety legislation, regardless of any injury sustained.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:12 AM

    Richard, the workers themselves are saying that. And they're out there, working without protective gear, because they are afraid they will lose their jobs if they wear it. That is, when they overcome their fear of speaking out. BP has forced them to sign papers saying they won't talk to anyone about anything, and they have private security guards prevent people from having access to them when they're out in the field (even when they are on break). BP is also preventing people in our media from having access to public areas so they can film what is going on. BP is dictating to the US government and the US government is letting them. BP is functioning as our government.

    BP has a track record of these kinds of things. They have the worst safety record by orders of magnitude of any oil company operating in the US. They have already been found guilty of one or more felonies in other cases of criminal negligence. This is their corporate culture. It's what they do. And you are defending it.

    AND ONE MORE TIME - WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK WHERE THEY COME FROM. WHAT WE CARE ABOUT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:26 AM

    A couple of comments from British newspapers this morning

    Quote
    They called it the "perp walk" - the moment BP executives marched up to the White House for what the Independent calls a "presidential spanking".

    "Perp walk", the Guardian tells us, is American slang for a police parade of suspects - short for "perpetrator".

    The paper says BP's $20bn compensation fund and suspension of dividends is President Obama's "pound of flesh".

    The Daily Mail says it was a day of BP-bashing by a president who, it claims, "bullied" the firm into capitulation.
    Unquote


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:34 AM

    That's all bullshit. He's just pretending to be tough on them to diffuse some of the anger of the people of this country. They had to pretend to be on a "perp walk" and to be humbled for the same reason. In reality, he's handling them with kid gloves, and they still call the shots.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:10 AM

    ""The idea that there is bigotry involved is just plain silly.""

    Maybe not exactly Bigotry, Don F.

    Call me an old cynic if you like, but it certainly wouldn't do the American oil companies any harm at all if BP were crippled, or better yet, removed.

    Everything that has been published since the start of the spill, both by the US Media, and the US government, has had the effect of destroying the share value of a foreign competitor.

    Of course, we are constantly being told there is no such agenda, so that must be alright then. After all, US Media and politicians don't lie, do they?

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM

    You've got to be kidding, Don. Why don't you come on over here, maybe volunteer to help clean up along the Gulf, and you can see for yourself what's going on. And don't bother to wear a respirator. You deserve to be given proof that the fumes from the oil is making people sick. Maybe getting sick yourself is the only you're going to find out.

    Every decision that BP has made (and I get most of my information from sources other than the US corporate media), has been specifically for the purpose of mitigating liability rather than mitigating harm, and they are causing far more harm in the process. And the government of this country has assisted them in doing that every step of the way. For instance, environmentalists have consistently said that using large amounts of chemical dispersants would compound the damage caused to the ecosystems in the Gulf rather than mitigating it. But BP prefers to spray the dispersants because their liability is measured by the barrel of oil spilled, and it's a lot harder to measure the amount of oil spilled if it's dispersed into underwater plumes (which BP tried to pretend weren't there until it became impossible to do) than if it's floating on the top where it can be skimmed off and measured. And our government said, fine. And when our government told them they had to switch to a less toxic brand of dispersant, they basically said too bad and kept on using the more toxic kind, which, by the way, is banned in your country. And what did the government of this country do about their refusal? Absolutely nothing. Because BP is allowed to do whatever the hell it wants.

    And they're skulking around in the nighttime collecting and disposing of dead animals because it's a felony to kill protected and endangered species. Scientists want to know how many animals are being killed and they want to study the effects of this disaster, but BP is making it very difficult for them to do that, and all because it wants to mitigate its liability.

    These are scientists and environmentalists who are saying these things.

    And Riki Ott, a marine toxicologist who has nothing whatever to do with competing oil companies, and whose entire concern is the welfare of the people of the Gulf and the environment there, since her business as a fisherman in Alaska was destroyed by the Exxon Valdes spill, is saying all of the same things I have reported here.

    You guys really are showing yourselves to be utterly lacking in compassion, and you really have no idea what you're talking about.
    Here you go, Richard. Video evidence about BP not allowing the workers to wear protective gear...

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#37744181


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:20 AM

    Here's Riki Ott talking about the Exxon Valdez...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84W5kaz4AxA


    Here's Riki Ott talking about the disaster in the Gulf...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wrQCY76fps


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: artbrooks
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:23 AM

    AP article on protective equipment


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM

    Code Pink to the rescue


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM

    Call me an old cynic if you like, but it certainly wouldn't do the American oil companies any harm at all if BP were crippled, or better yet, removed....

    Yeah, you know that Warren Report was a crock, too, & you do realize the Moon Landing was faked in a studio in Cincinnati.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

    Gee, why should people be mad at BP except that they hate the English? Hmm. Couldn't have anything to do with the 40k barrels of oil (I think that's the latest estimate--correct me if I'm wrong) pumping into the Gulf of Mexico and ultimately coming to shore on American shores? Nah, that couldn't be it. It must be national chauvinism.

    Listen to yourself!

    Why would people say "British Petroleum" if they weren't spiteful of the British? Hmm. Couldn't be because that was the name of the company for time immemorial, and they got used to saying it and weren't aware of hte name change, and have a hard time remembering the name change anyway because once you get into the habit of using a certain term it's bloody hard to get back out of it? Nah, that couldn't be it. It must be natural chauvinism.

    Holy fucking shit. Do you have two brain cells to rub together?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:51 PM

    Is that meant to be funny Carol. If so it wasn't. If it is mean't to be real, then where is the evidence from this woman to support the gas coming out of her mouth.

    You americans are just good at mouthing off when things don't go right for you and very good at blaming everybody else.

    I think it's a disaster and am really sad about it all. However all this American hatred to BP is not solving the problem.

    Your Government are full of gas and only lining their pockets for the election or whatever is coming up.

    Give you mouths a rest and let BP get on with it and support them and help them to get it sorted.

    What the hell are you going to do if BP tell you to f*** off and walk away from it. What will you do then.

    Has USA put right everything you did in Iraq. The devestation that you did based on lies was an absolute catastrophy. How you can hold your heads up, I don't know. I will never forgive America for drawing Britain into agreeing to help you. Both leaders should face war criminal charges.
    America should be paying billions to put right what they did in Iraq.
    Funny that, I bet you don't feel it's your responsibilty, do you.

    I am out of here.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM

    "I will never forgive America for drawing Britain into agreeing to help you."

    Aw, poor baby Britain.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM

    Tony Hayward used the old "I don't know" and the "investigation is incomplete" defense before the Congressional Committee today. This is 59 days after the blowout and the Board doesn't have the information? Nonsense, of course.

    The dispersant used by BP may cause as much damage as the crude oil itself.
    I cited this paper in the other thread, "Acute Aquatic Toxicity of Three Corexit Products: An Overview" by researchers with Exxon Biomedical Sciences, Inc.
    The dispersants are the most toxic tested by the researchers.

    Acute Toxicity

    Exxon set up this company at arms-length so that its research would not be hindered by main company management or company association.
    It is one of the reasons Exxon had only one culpable infraction and BP had many hundreds.

    I understand that Chevron does much the same by placing research funds into arms-length programs at various universities; their violations have been few as well.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:04 PM

    Arthritis, if we didn't laugh, we would have to cry. And spare the that "you Americans" bullshit. I'm as critical of my country and my government as anyone else, and more than most (as my previous posts demonstrate). But you are apparently unable tolerate any criticism of anything even remotely British. I think that makes you the bigot.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM

    http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/55189


    The Gulf of Mexico BP Oil Spill is the worst natural disaster in US history and the hurt is coming down on British Petroleum (BP) for their negligence and the damages they have caused… or so we thought.

    Today, the White House announced that BP has agreed to put $20 Billion in a fund to pay for damages and claims due to this disaster. This comes a day after new estimates place the amount of oil spilling into the Gulf per day at 40,000 – 60,000 barrels. Since the estimates and math for this fiasco haven't been adding up from the start, let's compare this oil spill to a previous spill, The Exxon Valdez and see how we're doing, shall we?

    Exxon Valdez Oil Spill:
    - Year: 1989
    - Barrels Spilled: 250,000
    - Cost of clean-up: $8.6 Billion ($14.69 Billion in 2010 dollars)

        * $2.5 Billion in allocated funds by Exxon for clean-up
        * $5 Billion charged in punitive damages*
        * $1.1 Billion in other settlements

    *Exxon has appealled this ruling up through 2008 and the supreme court reduced this settlement value numerous times. The initial 1994 ruling also lead to the first ever modern day credit default swap, when Exxon obtained a $4.6 Billion line of credit from J.P. Morgan & Co. Ironic that this disaster was something that helped lead to our recent financial disaster.

    BP Deepwater Horizon Oil Rig Explosion/Spill:
    - Year: 2010
    - Barrels Spilled: 2.32 Million – 3.48 Million (As of 58 days into spill)
    - Cost to pay for clean-up: $20 Billion (As of June 16th, 2010)

    As stated above, the 2010 value of Exxon's initial agreed cost to clean-up the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill would be $14.69 Billion. Let's work on some simple math here:

    In 2010 Dollars:
    - Clean-up/payment in damages for 250,000 barrels of oil = $14.69 Billion
    - As of today, as much as 3.48 million barrels of oil have spilled into the Gulf of Mexico
    - That means the BP Gulf Oil Spill is 13.92 times LARGER than the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill
    - Estimated cost to clean-up/pay for damages: 13.92 x $14.69 Billion = $204 Billion

    Hmmm, I'd say BP is getting quite a deal, wouldn't you? And one may wonder how they were able to bridge this gap between $204 Billion and $20 Billion. How about another history lesson and comparison to the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill? As stated above, Exxon appealed the ruling of their having to pay $5 Billion in punitive damages up through 2008. And the result: In 2008, the Supreme Courts ruled 5-3 that Exxon is to pay no more than $507.5 Million in punitive damages for the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill.

    The original ruling was that Exxon was to pay ~$5 Billion, they actually ended paying out closer to ~$500 Million. Roughly 10%. BP's current expected liability, if the amount going into escrow is any indicator, is evidently ~$20 Billion. Whereas (asssuming a linear projection) their actual liability should be closer to ~$200 Billion. Oh look, there's that 10% again. Thus, we bridge the gap.

    One can't help but wonder if the US Govenrment isn't just pricing a string of BP legal victories through our court system into the total going into escrow. Considering the pathetic condition of the US courts ability to hold corporate malfactors accountable, this is probably a shrewd decision. But, what if BP loses? Wait, wait… who are we kidding? I'm sure $20 Billion will be just right.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:25 PM

    Stop having a go at BP them and get with them to hopefully sort things out as quick as possible.

    You just keep posting criticism after criticism on BP. Get the thing sorted then start sorting out who is to blame. Obama does not help the situation one little bit.

    Yes BP has f***** up, but your incessant baying is not helping the situation.

    As I said you guys have a lot to answer for all the wrongs you have done around the world.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM

    ...President Barack Obama reiterated his defense of oil giant BP after a White House meeting with the company�s CEO Tony Hayward and board chairman Carl-Henric Svanberg.

    After the meeting, Obama and BP announced the establishment of an independently operated escrow account, the Independent Claims Facility, funded by up to $20 billion paid out over the next four years. BP said it would delay dividend payouts over the remainder of the year estimated at $10 billion. Other details of the escrow account remain vague.

    The US media presented the meeting and announcement as a humbling of BP. It was nothing of the sort.

    In fact, the meeting was a choreographed event with two purposes: to diffuse popular anger against both BP and the Obama administration, and to assure the financial markets that BP is in no danger of bankruptcy or criminal prosecution. There will be no serious consequences for the disaster that killed 11 workers on April 20 and has since pumped upwards of 60 million gallons of oil into the Gulf of Mexico.

    Even were it clear that the $20 billion will really be made available to the blowout�s many economic victims�and it is not�this is a preposterously small sum for a catastrophe whose real cost will run into the hundreds of billions, if not trillions. All the costs of environmental cleanup are to be paid out of this fund, according to the Financial Times. There can be no doubt that this alone will far surpass $20 billion.

    The deal ensures that the overwhelming burden of the costs of the disaster will be borne by the government, and ultimately the working class...

    ...hough the administration had done nothing to punish BP, Obama had been under pressure from financial circles to throw it a lifeline. The preceding weeks had seen BP shares tumble by half and on Tuesday Fitch downgraded the company�s credit rating by six notches.

    The escrow account is meant to shield BP from potentially hundreds of billions, or even trillions, in damages. While both Obama and BP promised that the account did not mean a $20 billion cap on liability had been put in place, the Independent Claims Facility is a preemptive blow against the tens of thousands of lawsuits BP is likely to face over the coming years.

    While it remains extremely vague, the escrow account will be BP�s first line of defense in determining what are �legitimate claims,� a phrase both Obama and company executives have repeatedly used. Those claimants deemed �illegitimate� might turn to the court system for redress, but having been ruled unfounded by a supposedly neutral observer, they will have a black mark hanging over them, and US courts are already notorious for defending corporate privilege.

    This is the fate that awaits the blowout�s financial victims. Millions of Gulf Coast residents are likely to suffer financially through layoffs which will ripple through the economy far beyond the fishing and tourism industries, through declining home values in a region already devastated by the real estate collapse, and through, in all probability, an epidemic of health problems.

    If there are 10 million such victims�less than the combined population of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, the three states hardest-hit so far�the miserly $20 billion escrow account would mean a mere $2,000 per person...

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jun2010/spil-j17.shtml


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

    Arthritis, on another thread I said several times that the United States is the biggest cause of problems in the world. And I stand by that. However, that doesn't excuse anything that BP is doing or has done. BP's history is just as full of devious and despicable things as is that of the US, starting with its theft of Iranian oil, and it's instigation of the US covert overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran. You guys really are no better than us, you're just a little bit more past your prime so you're not quite as dangerous as we are. You still have all of the same imperialistic impulses, though... just not the resources to back them up. So spare me your puffed up self-righteousness.

    We need to spend more time criticizing BP, not less. We need to get the truth out about what they are doing, which they are doing their level best to cover up. The problem doesn't get corrected by turning our gulf into a military zone and covering up the evidence. It is corrected by ensuring that the truth gets out so we can make sure something like this never happens again.

    Personally I think the world would be a far better place without corporate criminals like BP.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

    So if we're going to start accusing people of bigotry here, let's take a good look, shall we?

    "You americans—"   Now, that right there sounds like a bigot about to pop off. "— are just good at mouthing off when things don't go right for yo and very good at blaming everybody else."

    Every single American, Artie?

    And just who should be blamed, Artie? It was a BP executive, a bean-counter and desk-jockey who obviously knew diddly-squat about oil drilling, who complained that the drilling was taking too long and costing too much, and who insisted that the drilling crew speed up the process. The drilling crew warned him it would be dangerous to do so, but he insisted. What the drilling crew was afraid could happen is exactly what did happen!

    Then, the BP exec said, "I didn't know an oil well would do that!"

    Had he never seen an oil gusher before? What kind of oil man was he, anyway? As I said, a paper-pushing desk-jockey.

    Nobody is blaming the British people, Artie. So lighten up.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:33 PM

    Yep getting too involved.

    I will stop posting on this thread and apologise for flaming.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:32 PM

    http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20100617/ARTICLE/6171090/2416?tc=ar


    BP decided on Wednesday to give $25 million to Gulf Coast researchers for oil spill studies, a fraction of the $500 million promised a month ago.

    The money -- a quarter of what scientists requested in Florida alone -- falls far short of what experts say they need now to study the effects of the oil that has been blasting into the Gulf of Mexico at a rate of more than 2 million gallons a day since April 20.

    BP, the company responsible for the spill, has no plans to release more money soon.

    Instead, over the next 10 years, the remaining $475 million will be funneled through a panel of six scientists appointed by BP, none of whom reside in the Gulf Coast region.

    Universities and research institutes from Texas to Florida have deployed sensing equipment, research ships and much of their staff -- oceanographers, chemists and marine biologists -- to the oil spill.

    Of the $25 million BP decided to give Wednesday, Florida scientists will receive $10 million. That amount barely allows scientists to continue emergency research that was patched together by diverting resources from other projects.

    The Florida Institute of Oceanography, a coalition of 20 research groups, with backing from Gov. Charlie Crist and congressional leaders, asked BP two weeks ago for $100 million.

    They need the money to pay for new sensing equipment to help track the spill, more lab gear to analyze water, sediments and animal and plant tissues and to hire more staff. They also wanted to take more research trips at sea, which could employ fishermen grounded by the spill.

    The research would help improve oil forecasts in the short term. And it would lay the foundation for studying the effects of the oil and dispersants on the food chain and the health of communities over the long term..


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Bobert
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM

    I've been in a position where someone owes me a sizable piece of change and ya' kinda do have to waltz with them to a certain extent to get anything out of them... That's what Obama is doing here with BP... He's pounding them just enough so they don't quit on the deal, go banrupt and tell everyone to go screw themselves... It's a fine line... Pound too hard and get perhaps nothin'... Don't pound enough and get nothin'...

    If he get's the $20B before BP goes Chapter 11 then it will be a success...

    B~


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM

    ""Holy fucking shit. Do you have two brain cells to rub together?""

    Yes I do! And I have asked this question twice before without response.

    Since BP is working to control the spill, and to repair the damage, and since it has stated clearly (even before you and your Pres started jumping up and down) that it would take responsibility and pay for all the work needed to put things right, and since furthermore, it has set aside twenty billion dollars for the purpose, tell me what is the reason for driving its share values down, and possibly bankrupting the company, if not to eliminate competition for the benefit of the other oil companies, which just happen to be American owned?

    A second question is this. How do those of you who are gloating over BP shares tumbling to $29 think that the cost of repairing the damage will be met when BP shares are worthless, and the company goes under?

    I'm really curious about your response to the above, because it seems to me that anybody who had even one brain cell would want to ensure BP remained capable of paying, and that just doesn't sem to be the case.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Stringsinger
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM

    Tony Hayward belongs in jail for ruining America's coastline. He refuses to take responsibility for his actions. The hearings were a farce because he stonewalled all of the questions.

    We don't need big oil companies exploiting our needs and America does not need big oil addiction. We need electric cars, alternative energy if possible and a cessation of offshore deep water drilling immediately.

    BP has made a lot of money. They should pay it out to the people whose lives and livelihoods they have ruined.

    Americans should be held accountable for their gas guzzling S.U.V.s and the automobile industry is culpable here too in collusion with the gas and oil companies.

    Also, G.W. Bush is culpable for his collusion with the oil companies. He is responsible for the corruption of the MMS which didn't do its job. And this goes for all the sympathetic Libertarians who would like to dismantle the U.S. Government and limit regulation.

    Tony Hayward is Britain's shame (if Brits were really involved). BP as stated above is a trans-national company which is probably a country of its own.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 PM

    ""We need to spend more time criticizing BP, not less. We need to get the truth out about what they are doing, which they are doing their level best to cover up. The problem doesn't get corrected by turning our gulf into a military zone and covering up the evidence. It is corrected by ensuring that the truth gets out so we can make sure something like this never happens again.

    Personally I think the world would be a far better place without corporate criminals like BP.
    ""

    You may well get your wish much sooner than you think Carol. I usually find myself agreeing with you, but in this case I think you, and a lot of others, are seriously awry.

    Are you not aware that every day, the criticism and vilification of BP by the USA, is reducing the value of the company. The shareholders of any company will only hold on to the shares if they see some likelihood of a return on their investment.

    With share prices in free fall and no dividend, there is every likelihood that BP will see massive dumping of shares onto the market, which will inevitably attract the attentions of asset strippers.

    Your assessment of the costs may well be accurate, in which case I would suggest that you need to stop kicking BP and get behind their efforts. You need, like it or not, both their expertise and their money, so it would seem sensible not to kill them off too soon.

    What do you think?

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:04 PM

    BP's shares dropping is a result of the actions of BP!

    The shares didn't drop because people are upset about the disaster, they dropped because BP didn't prevent the disaster from happening!

    What do you think should have been done... the explosion kept secret? No reporting? No press coverage?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Bobert
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:20 PM

    I'm kinda with Don on this one... What has happened has happened... The blame will eventually land where it belongs... Right now???... I don't see any logic in buryin' BP and then having taxpayers pick up the tab...

    A little patience will get US alot more than pounding away...

    (But, Boberdz... Pounding away will get more votes...)

    Great... Will votes reimburse the poor shmuck who is makin' $3000 a month payments on a boat he can't take out into the Gulf to earn a living??? No, votes don't mean squat right now... What we need is BP's money and future stability so the checks come in...

    b~


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:23 PM

    Since BP is working to control the spill, and to repair the damage, and since it has stated clearly (even before you and your Pres started jumping up and down) that it would take responsibility and pay for all the work needed to put things right, and since furthermore, it has set aside twenty billion dollars for the purpose, tell me what is the reason for driving its share values down, and possibly bankrupting the company, if not to eliminate competition for the benefit of the other oil companies, which just happen to be American owned?

    Obama's little bit of theater was designed to help BP get it's share prices back up again, and it worked. So what are you complaining about?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:25 PM

    Having said that, nobody with any sense expects BP to even come close to making anything right. As I said before, all of their decisions have been for the purpose of mitigating liability, not harm, and all of them have increased the harm that has been inflicted rather than mitigating it.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM

    $20 billion in escrow is a start; the cost, of course, will be considerably more. The courts will be busy with claims for years to come.

    After hitting a high of 650 pence near the end of March, it was about 360 pence today, a little improvement over a low of 337p yesterday; funds and individuals with BP stock have taken a damaging blow. ($32 approx. NY Ex, I haven't checked today)

    MMS shares the blame by not enforcing proper procedures; it's management was badly corrupted and/or incompetent.

    I agree with Bobert; take what is possible. Of course the rest of us will lose some liquidity over the coming years as a result. Drive BP into near bankruptcy, and Chevron, Sinopec or someone else will take over the company; then they will claim the damages are "not my problem" and suits would become impossible.

    I didn't hear all of the questions (not that it mattered, Tony only came up with a stock answer that the investigation was not complete) but I didn't hear anyone question his record- in his BP bio it is stated that he saved BP some $4 billion. Some emphasis could have been put on the charge that he is responsible for the cost-cutting and hence inadequate procedures in drilling.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:43 PM

    ""Hey gnu - a few days ago, I got four stitches in my thumb. The price tag was more than $500. What do you think about that?""

    So now you are saying "let's attack them some more, and drive the price back down again".

    And how much did it rise? I'd suspect nowhere near a significant amount, though I haven't seen the latest figures.

    Sometimes you just have to say "the milk is spilt. Let's concentrate on mopping it up, and worry about blame and punishment afterwards".

    Don T


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 17 Jun 10 - 10:10 PM

    So now you are saying "let's attack them some more, and drive the price back down again".

    And how much did it rise? I'd suspect nowhere near a significant amount, though I haven't seen the latest figures.

    Sometimes you just have to say "the milk is spilt. Let's concentrate on mopping it up, and worry about blame and punishment afterwards".


    Don, it sounds like you are more concerned about your portfolio than you are about the lives of millions of people. Shame on you.

    Do you think we should just bend over and take it up the ass just to protect your assets? Because that's precisely what is happening right now. Speaking out means we stand up for our rights and for the environment. Doing what you suggest may help your portfolio, but it doesn't help any of the people in this country who are being fucked over by BP, or the environment, either. And in case your attitude is, "well, hell, why should I care, that's so far away from me", my answer is, don't bet on it. The oil is going to be heading your way after it's finished with my state. Perhaps you'll be singing a different tune then, when you find out just how much help the people in your country get from BP after you are awash in oil.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

    On the subject of the cleanup


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 18 Jun 10 - 04:25 PM

    When the clock radio went off this morning with the news, there was a sound clip of someone, either an elected official or an oil company executive having a wall-eyed fit and ricocheting off the walls about Obama's declaring a six-month moratorium on off-shore drilling, at least until we get this business sorted out. The screamer was howling that the moratorium would destroy the oil industry and ruin the American economy. Some of the things he said about Obama reminded me of our paranoid-schizophrenic friend, ichMael.

    I didn't get who it was, because the newscast moved on to the next story.

    Then, in this morning's e-mail, I get this:
    When BP CEO Tony Hayward testified before Congress this morning, many expected to hear him apologize for the disaster his company has caused. Instead, GOP Congressman Joe Barton was the one saying he was sorry -- to BP.

    In his opening statement, Barton, the top Republican on the committee overseeing the oil spill and its aftermath, delivered a personal apology to the oil giant. He said the $20 billion fund that President Obama directed BP to establish to provide relief to the victims of the oil disaster was a "tragedy in the first proportion."

    Other Republicans are echoing his call. Sen. John Cornyn said he "shares" Barton's concern. Rep. Michele Bachmann said that BP shouldn't agree to be "fleeced." Rush Limbaugh called it a "bailout." The Republican Study Committee, with its 114 members in the House, called it a "shakedown."
    Excuse me!!!???   What the hell???

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM

    The Republicans are continuing their program of opposing anything Obama does.
    This tactic may backfire- the remarks by Barton et al go against majority opinion. They are definitely not the brightest fireflies in the bayou.

    In the other thread I have outlined BP's term payout of the $20 billion, the decision to sell $10 billion of non-core assets, assignment of Robert Dudley to replace Tony Hayward in oil spill operations, and speculation that their Russian assets are to be put on sale.
    -All items from BBC News.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM

    The Democrats need to scream this from the rooftops. This could save them in the mid-term elections.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: DougR
    Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM

    Both the Democrats and the Republicans made asses of themselves in that hearing. I don't know why congressional committees feel they have license to beat up on witnesses appearing before them. Well, yes, I guess I do. They want to show the folks back home how tough they are.

    None of them take into account that they work for us, not us for them!

    DougR


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 18 Jun 10 - 06:03 PM

    ""Don, it sounds like you are more concerned about your portfolio than you are about the lives of millions of people. Shame on you.""

    God Carol, when you decide to be obtuse you really make a good job of it.

    First of all I have precisely zero shares in any company. My pension won't run to it. So I'm afraid that little ad hominem was a waste of your time.

    Secondly, I have never said that BP should get away with not paying every last penny of the damage.

    I have simply questioned whether it makes sense to keep up a barrage of vituperation which may result in you, and other US taxpayers having to pick up the tab if BP goes under. It isn't smart, and it isn't practical.

    That is not support for BP (I couldn't care less if they fold tomorrow), but you should care, because if they fold, you get zilch out of them.

    Now do you finally understand what I've spent a lot of time and energy trying to get across to you?

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: CarolC
    Date: 18 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

    I would say characterizing people who are trying to get out important information about what BP is still doing wrong as engaging in a "barrage of vituperation" is the ad hominem that is in operation here, Don.

    If we don't do it, it will get swept under the rug, which is precisely what BP is trying to ensure happens. As I've said at least twice now, all of BP's decisions since the blowout have been designed specifically to mitigate liability rather than to mitigate harm, and they are causing a lot more harm in the process. What part of "they are still causing harm" are you unable to understand? Do you really not give a shit that BP are ruining people's health for no reason other than to mitigate their liability?

    Do you really not give a shit that they are right now causing immense harm to the ecology of the Gulf of Mexico for no reason other than to mitigate their liability? Do you really think that shutting up is the right thing to do while they are causing so much death and destruction for no reason other than to protect their corporate bottom line?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:21 PM

    At this point, quibbling about whose fault it was, is not very productive. However, there is fault for not cleaning the thing up, and closing it....and the figured are much higher than reported, on here. Also, the pipe is a 20" diameter pipe, two inches thick. One half of the pipe is reported to have worn away. Crude oil has particulates and aggregates in it. When the Alaskan pipeline was shut down for repairs, it was worn down, to 1/2 its thickness. It took 30 years to do that...this one took only less than two months!

    Also, 14% toxicity, in the air, with these toxins is fatal...we are at 8%, at present...which is making people sick(head aches, nausea, dizziness etc etc.

    for the benefit of my Mudcat buddies, and (name callers), if you have friends or relatives near the area, you might give them a buzz, and tell them to calmly, and thoughtfully, get the hell away from there!

    I've got more...but not for stupid arguments.
    Just for the sake of a side note, I think the President has not been very Presidential about this, and looks way worse than Bush, during Katrina!...and has foolishly politicized this, instead of doing everything he could/can to get it stopped!

    The longer he sits on his hands, and "not wasting a crisis", the wider the hole gets!

    When they drill for oil, they often pump water into the void, as not to cause a collapse, from the umbrage. This is not being done, of course, which is going to be of another concern.

    Also, the gasses, are a lot more than methane, as being reported!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:20 AM

    Teribus is wrong- the drilling crew was entirely BP crew and supervised by BP employees.

    Transocean owned and cared for the rig, but the drilling program was entirely BP's. - Q


    Now let me see Q, the Deepwater Horizon suffered a blow-out didn't it, in which case the gas under tremendous pressure would have torn up the drill string and the explosion would have been centred on the drill-floor of the rig. A question for you. How many BP personnel were killed? I would have expected most of the 11 would have been BP employees if what you said was true (which it isn't).

    Another question for you Q: If the drilling crew were entirely BP, why was it that Transocean organised a memorial service for those killed?

    The Deepwater Horizon was not drilling at the time the blow-out happened. Halliburton were cementing casing and plugging the well for temporary abandonment.

    This accident did not happen because anyone told anybody else to "drill faster".

    This accident did not happen because of any decision to use a head of seawater instead of a head of drilling mud to hold the pressure during cementation of the casing.

    The accident happened because the BOP Failed, no-one at present knows how or why it failed. It will be quite some time before we do know.

    Simple question for anyone who has watched the leak. Is the oil leaking out of the BOP, or out of the seabed around it? From what I have seen it is leaking from the BOP, which means people that the well casing and the cement job to set that was good.

    While BP may have planned the drilling programme to be followed that was complete, and had been completed without incident.

    Transocean was responsible for actually carrying out the drilling operation, it was their rig and they supplied the manpower to operate it. Anybody doubts that just look up the Transocean web-site and take a look at their job opportunities pages (To work in the US GOM you have to be American basically and it tells you that). The last Semi-Submersible Drilling Rig that BP ever operated was the Sea Gem back in the early 1970's. IF there was any dispute about drilling it is Transocean who have the final say NOT BP (As stated previously you may sit in a taxi and order the driver to speed up or run a red light, if he gets stopped and issued with a ticket, or has an accident it is the driver of the taxi who is at fault not the passenger).

    Cameron supplied the BOP, this may have been leased (probably was considering the depth) to BP but it would be down to a combination of Cameron and Transocean to maintain and operate it.

    Halliburton were cementing the casing, and as such they would have control of the drill-floor during that operation, it would Halliburton specialists who were directing what Transocean drilling crews were doing.

    I would love to see this order from BP for workers not to wear protective clothing, but I doubt if any evidence of such an instruction will ever appear.

    I take it Guest from Sanity that the 1500psi normal capping pressure you mentioned was a "down-hole" over pressure? and the others actual guage pressures?

    I am with RB, Howard, Don T and others on this, BP right from the outset stated clearly that they regarded themselves as being responsible and that they fully intended to pay for all damage, losses and clean up costs. Barack Obama then waded in and started political grandstanding. You never know, he might even be able to lay off some of the Hurricane Katrina clean up and recovery costs costs onto BP as well.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

    Both the Democrats and the Republicans made asses of themselves in that hearing...feel they have license to beat up on witnesses...

    Jesus H Christ- Douggie's really overtopped the usual degree of inanity & stupididy- hard to believe, byut true!

    Poor, poor pitiful BP - ???

    Right.

    the remarks by Barton et al go against majority opinion.

    The remarks by Barton et. al. defy reason and common sense. Only shows the degree to which the Republicans will act like complete assholes to oppose anything the Obama administration does.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 12:01 PM

    If the majority do remove him from his post as minority leader on the Energy etc. committee, then some of the wind will be taken out of the Democrats' sails. Otherwise it's a sure sign (so the advertising will say, hopefully) that the GOP in general agrees with him.

    "Don't vote the Republicans into a majority in the House, or this man will be the head of the Energy etc. committee. Can we really afford another Deepwater Horizon?"

    It won't change the votes of the party faithful, but it could move the swing voters away from the BP-ass-licking Repuglickin's.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM

    So, it's going to become a big political fight- or it is already.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 01:30 PM

    The current crop of Rethuglickin's make everything a big political fight. It's all they know.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 02:20 PM

    Teribus, the information you have posted is 180 degrees out from all the evidence and reports of those who were there at the time.

    Documentation? I can bury you in it if you wish.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM

    I wish to apologise for identifying the crew as BP employees; nine of those killed were Transocean employees including the driller and toolpush.
    Two were employees of M-I-SWACO, a company that says it manages risks of fluids-related issues and safeguards completion, among other jobs. They mention that they work at deepwarer solutions.

    Unsworn testimony to media specifically mention a number of BP faults in procedure and prior damage to the BOP, cementing procedures directed by BP and footing of the well; it will reappear as sworn testimony in government reports and various legal actions. Anadarko, a partner (25%) in the well, condemned BP on the well yesterday.

    The BP report will apologise for the incident, but will absolve them of any fault in procedures. What else would one expect them to do?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:45 PM

    Times Newsline, 19 June, 2010:

    Anadarko CEO Jim Hackett said today that BP actions probably amounted to "gross negligence or wilful misconduct."
    Anadarko, 25% partner in the deepwater gusher, is trying to keep the blame squarely on BP shoulders.
    Tony Hayward "strongly disagreed" with the allegations and said that he expected the firm's partners to "live up to their obligations."

    Meanwhile, Hayward's yacht competed in the J. P. Morgan race around the Isle of Wight, coming in 4th in its class. He had the boat built by Farr, Annapolis, Maryland.

    "Industry experts" (unnamed) "pointed out that if all attempts to contain the leak fail, oil will keep on flowing into the Gulf of Mexico for the next two years or more,...." The reservoir is estimated to contain some 50 million bbl. of oil.

    http://www.timesnewsline.com, "Gulf Oil Spill Result of Negligence & Misconduct, says Drilling Partner."


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,TIA
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:12 PM

    GfS,
    I largely avoid the threads you post to; to avoid friction in my life and yours; but you just stepped into a place where I promise you, I know plenty. Sorry to copy from another thread, but here it is (quoting TIA):

    I've heard a lot of this "Obama should have done something right away" nonsense spewing from Faux and its followers.

    As a frequent contractor to the Federal government, I have some experience on which to base a quick thought experiment.

    Here it is:
    The federal government does not actually "do" much of anything. They hire contractors, and provide oversight. When the Corps of Engineers (for instance) is fixing a dam (for instance), they hire contractors to do the drilling and grouting, or whatever. This is largely because they do not have the necessary specialized equipment.

    So,
    Obama steps in and has the Fed fix the spill. They will hire contractors. Who would be the contractors? Who has the specialized equipment? Yup, you guessed it - BP!

    So,
    What Faux is really saying is: "let's *pay* BP to stop the leak instead of pushing them to do it on their own dime."

    But,
    The Fed gets its money from whom? Yup, you got it - YOU!

    So,
    Faux is really saying: "You citizens of the USA should be paying BP to stop the leak"

    Brilliant. Doesn't sound quite like that when Hannity and Limbaugh say it, does it?

    Some people really need to learn to **think**"



    And, I just cannot let this slide:

    GfS says:
    "When they drill for oil, they often pump water into the void, as not to cause a collapse, from the umbrage. This is not being done, of course, which is going to be of another concern."

    Dude or dudette - oil is less dense than water. Pump all the water you want into any oil well as deep as you want, and it won't stop the flow of oil. But, don't believe me. Just try to stop a helium ballon from rising by putting air on it okay? And, get back to me with those results.

    This event has produced more "experts" talking out their asses than any news event I have ever seen. The Dunning-Kroger effect is in full blossom (JFGI).

    Odd parallel between BP Spill and the Birther threads. It is not really about the constitution and not really abo


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,TIA
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:21 PM

    Crap, wrong key...

    Odd parallel between BP Spill and the Birther threads. It is not really about the Constitution, and not really about stopping the environmental devastation. It is really about finding fault **any fault** with a "librul" President who is non-white.

    Wow. Now I shall duck because all the reverse racism, and "you are projecting", and "I am a counselor so I understand your true problem" arguments come flying. But; the foo shits, so wear it. Tell your problems to lansing (lots of commas and no caps please).

    And, post all the indignant replies you want. I promise you, I won't see them for a month...I am meeting the Queen this week. No shit. Believe or not at your pleasure. Buh-bye.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,TIA
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:23 PM

    And, just to feed your favorite subject...
    Perhaps I *am* the Queen!

    Mwoohahaha!!!!!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,TIA
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM

    Sorry, one more, but this dealio hits close to home for me...

    Q is **way** on top of this one:

    "Industry experts" (unnamed) "pointed out that if all attempts to contain the leak fail, oil will keep on flowing into the Gulf of Mexico for the next two years or more,...." The reservoir is estimated to contain some 50 million bbl. of oil."

    end quote, now back to TIA...

    The "Industry Expert" that I have spoken to is Matt Simmons. Never believe TIA's word. Go Google, "Matt Simmons". Read his credentials, his history of predictions related to the oil industry (as well as specific details related to this event), and weep for the Gulf of Mexico, Planet Earth, and your (and my) kids' future. If this guy's expertise holds, we are fooked.

    Got no dog in this fight. I make no money being right or wrong about this. Accuse me of whatever bias you wish, but please argue with Matt Simmons if you wish to argue.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:56 PM

    So much talk and so few facts. OK, I twist off too, but I try to correct; mostly I just post news releases, trying to put information into the thread.

    Deepwater Gulf wells suspended by Obama are 33, most belonging to Chevron, Shell, Hess, Exxon and BP. Not having a subscription to the Oil and Gas journal, I can't list them.

    Bloomberg Business Week says BHP Billiton (Australia) has $10 billion to spend, and may buy out BP share of Gulf wells that they partner. These include Atlantis, Mad Dog and Gunflint.

    TIA, valid point. And give the Queen a buss for me!

    I hold no brief for Tony Hayward- I don't like cost cutters- but his critics want to hang him before a guilty verdict can be assessed. There are worse things than being a yachtsman.
    And it is equally silly to condemn Svanberg for his failure to understand that in the US some word usage has become politically incorrect that is taught in English language courses elsewhere in the world. Remember, in Amsterdam if a Dutch friend says he is going to take a douche, he means a shower.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 20 Jun 10 - 12:42 AM

    TIA: "And, I just cannot let this slide:

    GfS says:
    "When they drill for oil, they often pump water into the void, as not to cause a collapse, from the umbrage. This is not being done, of course, which is going to be of another concern."

    I thought you said you knew something....what I posted is true. They pump water back into the void.

    You probably just had to contradict that FACT, and couldn't hold back, ..like a fat person who just ate two gallons of navy bean soup!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 20 Jun 10 - 03:09 AM

    And what will stop the oil from rising through the water, GfS?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 20 Jun 10 - 08:38 AM

    Teribus, the information you have posted is 180 degrees out from all the evidence...

    Business as usual, then.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 20 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM

    Please do Don.

    What operation was ongoing at the time of the blow-out?

    Was the well being temporarily capped to allow the Deepwater Horizon to move and allow another rig to come in and replace the drilling BOP with a Production Manifold?

    If the answer to that last question is yes, then there is no way on God's earth that the rig was still drilling. To allow the temporary capping of the well the drilling would have stopped and the bit removed and have been retrieved a long time previous (any personal experience of how long it takes to run in and out of a hole that deep? have you got any clue at all?)

    As the rig could not have been drilling then how fast a hole was drilled is highly irrelevant.

    When you first start drilling you do so via a thing called a Temporary Guide Base, through this guide base you place and set your casing depending on the design of the well it starts out a 30" then gradually reduces the spaces between casings and between the outer casing and the formation through which it passes is filled with cement. As there is no oil leaking from the seabed it is obvious that that cement job has held good.

    What caused the blow-out was the failure of the Cameron supplied BOP. At the moment Don NOBODY KNOWS why or how it failed, NOT EVEN YOU. So how much of that is 180 degrees out?

    Very pleased to hear that Q has revisited his ridiculous contention that BP supplied the drilling crew. Now go back to my 180 degrees post Don and get some factual information regarding who onboard Deepwater Horizon were responsible for what.

    When will the relief wells be completed Q? In a far faster time than for the blow-out in shallow water in the Gulf of Campeche? Who is directing the drilling those relief wells Q? BP right?

    Destroying the coastline of America - Bullshit in five years time you will not even know that this has happened.

    If however you do want to talk about lives ruined and major harm and damaged caused start looking to the collapse of the US Sub-Prime mortgage market and what the effects of that were world-wide. How and why did that come about? Because idiot US Politicians dictated to the two major mortgage brokers in the US that they must lend money to people (US citizens) who were bad risks. The incentive and inferred reassurance having been hinted at that the Fed would guarantee those loans - The Fed did not, now start unlimited compensation discussions for that fiasco caused by US politicians, want to have a stab at the size of fund that would have to be set up?

    Pleased to hear that Indian Government is going to revisit the Bhopal incident, and the amount and extent of compensation paid there. Maybe some of Barack Obama's rhetoric might be rammed down Union Carbide's throat.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 20 Jun 10 - 09:48 AM

    Not 180 degrees out when it came to identifying who was responsible for operating the drill floor though eh Greg F??

    The only business as usual going on here Greg is that I am dealing with fact most others are dealing in gossip, rumour and speculation.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 20 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM

    Some perspectives on Bhophal:

    Bhopal Gas tragedy: A chronology of events, Bhopal/New Delhi:

    http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article448771.ece


    Warren Anderson


    Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/bhopal-tragedy-who-is-warren-anderson-30302.php?cp

    http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/bhopal-tragedy-who-is-warren-anderson-30302.php

    Were future USA-India "business interests" a Major Factor in the matter of no Anderson extradition?
    http://www.thehindu.com/2010/06/12/stories/2010061265471600.htm


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 20 Jun 10 - 11:50 AM

    Bullshit in five years time you will not even know that this has happened.

    You are absolutely correct that your statement IS bullshit, Teezer.

    The shit from the Exxon Valdez(1989) is still smeared all over the coast of Alaska, and will likely be there forever.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 20 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

    Delicate ecosystems in the marshes destroyed by this aren't going to return in five years, or fifty. It's not like the critters and plants can just hold their breath and then come back out after the oil is gone (as if the oil is going to be gone in 5 years).

    And what will stop the oil from rising through the water, GfS?

    Dispersant.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Sugarfoot Jack who's cookie has gone west
    Date: 20 Jun 10 - 12:56 PM

    "Bullshit in five years time you will not even know that this has happened."

    complete and utter rubbish Tezza, which I suspect you know. This is the arrogant attitude to nature and the environment that caused this tragedy in the first place.

    This report from the Exxon Valdez Oil Spill Trustee Council (this link opens a 17mb pdf file) provides a comprehensive overview of the cleanup and the impact on the ecosystem of Prince William Sound. Twenty years on many species are not recovered to pre-spill levels, with cetaceans, other mammals and fish being particularly affected. As the trustees state: "Because complete recovery from the oil spill may not occur for decades, and because healthy habitats are essential to the permanent recovery of the spill region, the Trustee Council has taken steps to extend its efforts to protect key habitats."

    The amount of oil leaking into the Gulf, along with the use of chemical dispersants which are themselves toxic to the environment means the impact of the spill will still be with the
    Gulf for decades.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 20 Jun 10 - 10:28 PM

    Just a little review of BP-induced problems, background for the attack by their partner, Anadarko.
    New York Times, Ian Urbina, "Documents show Earlier Worries for Rig's Safety," first published on front page, April 30.
    Preliminary findings presented to Congress April 23.
    "The problems involved the well casing and the blowout preventer, which are considered key pieces in the chain of events....."
    In March, after several weeks of problems, BP was struggling with a loss of "well control."
    On June 22, 2009, e. g., "BP engineers expressed concerns that the metal well casing the company wanted to use might collapse under high pressure. "This would certainly be a worst case scenario," warned Mark E. Hafle, a senior drilling engineer at BP in an internal report. "However, I have seen it happen, so know it can occur."
    The company went ahead with the casing, but only after getting special permission from BP colleagues because the casing violated the company's wn safety policies and design standards."
    Mr. Hafle later backed off and told a MMS and Coast Guard panel that "Nobody believed there was going to be a safety issue." Later, he refused to answer questions.
    In April this year, BP engineers concluded that the casing was "unlikely to be a successful cement job," - a document referring to how the casing would be sealed to prevent gases from escaping up the well. A later document said it "is possible to fulfill MMS regulations."
    A memorandum with preliminary BP findings indicated that gas was bubbling into the well (April 20), a potential sign of impending blowout.
    A parade of witnesses at hearings told about bad decisions and cut corners in the days and hours before the explosion.

    In March, reports or problems including "gas Kicks" and a pipe falling into the well; BP officials informed federal regulators that they were struggling with a loss of "well control.
    BP reported on three occasions that the blowout preventer was leaking fluid, which the manufacturer of the device limits its ability to function properly.
    Greg McCormack, Director Petroleum Extension Service, Univ. Texas, said he was surprised regulators and company officials did not halt the drilling operation at that point.
    Permission was requested to delay the federally mandated test of the blowout preventer until problems were resolved; MMS at first declined but lated acquiesced.
    Tests on the blowout preventer were at 6000 lb/sq. in. rather that the 10,000 psi mandated and used before the delay.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 12:23 AM

    Thanks for the link to the Bhopal Gas Leak incident, it does indeed put things into perspective.

    Barack Obama in his grandstanding performances recently has compared the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico as as serious an attack on the US as 9/11, utterly ridiculous of course as the former was an accident and 9/11 was a deliberate action of intent.

    With regard to 9/11 around 3,000 people lost their lives. The culprits were known and their extradition to answer for their crimes was sought. Those sheltering Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda refused to hand him over, the US intervened in the ongoing civil war in Afghanistan and drove the Taleban from power forcing the Al-Qaeda leadership to flee Afghanistan. Since October 2001 43 countries have been engaged in the conflict in Afghanistan all because of 3000 lives lost in the 9/11 attacks.

    The Bhopal incident killed 15,000, the culprits were known and their extradition was sought. Those sheltering the culprits refused to hand them over. Anybody see any double standard in operation here?

    Q, as for this:

    On June 22, 2009, e. g., "BP engineers expressed concerns that the metal well casing the company wanted to use might collapse under high pressure. "This would certainly be a worst case scenario," warned Mark E. Hafle, a senior drilling engineer at BP in an internal report. "However, I have seen it happen, so know it can occur."

    I would like to know the full context of this cherry-picked "concern". Look at the date, June 22, 2009 one year ago. Has the "casing collapsed under pressure"? No it has not. Once installed and cemented in place the casing sections are like an extended telescope inserted into the seabed. The well casing only supports the top end of the hole that has been drilled, it does not extend the full length of the well. Knowing how casing is assembled and constructed, I find the language incongruous particularly the use of word collapse. At the time were they talking about shallow gas pockets? On what has been "presented" by Q we have no idea.


    Function and operation of the BOP would be the responsibility of Transocean subsea engineers and Cameron as equipment supplier. Again I would like to know exactly what was leaking - another piece of half information presented without context.

    It would appear that at all points MMS were kept in the loop the reduction in test pressure for the BOP could only have come about with MMS sanction and a case would have been presented to them for review, comment and verification before that decision was made.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:01 AM

    Both Ebbie, and Mouser: "And what will stop the oil from rising through the water, GfS?"

    Sorry I seemed to have taken so long to respond, but I had to go to a reliable source, for info.

    Great question! A musical, sound engineering question or psych question would be easier. Now the problem with dispersant is this; When you think of 'dispersants', you think it just breaks it apart, and sort of 'dissolves' the oil, and it merely washes away, but not in an oil form. But that is not the case. The dispersant that has been used, that is most effective, also breaks it down, but hugely into a gaseous material, which of course, goes into the atmosphere, and is HIGHLY toxic. Coupled with the other gasses coming up from the well, this is not able to be done safely. It's not just the sludge, that washes up on the beaches, with the dispersant in it that is toxic, which has been reported...though that PART, is also accurate.

    As to your question, if the pressure, was as I posted before, 1500psi, this may have already been able to have been accomplished...MAYBE. But the pressures are far, FAR greater than being reported, as to not panic people. Frankly, those in the 'know' also know they are in DEEP shit!

    As I've posted before, the nuke option, would only be a matter of guesswork, as to the size nuke, because of the reasons previously posted..PLUS..it would take weeks, if not months to slant drill, as to the placement of it...being as it would have to be placed below 'ground'.

    I thought 'Q's' post was very informative, however, only as to lay where the fault lays, and why..to a point.

    Man, if I could figure out a way, I'd do everything in my power to get it to them...but as you've seen, BP, (as reported), has done 9 attempts, with no success.(And I don't know all the methods, that they've tried).

    Perhaps a series of powerful, but non nuke, could do it..but at this point, as far as I know, (or what I don't know), I don't think they'd want to run the risk of being unsuccessful, and weakening the ocean floor there, making it bigger. Man, let's brainstorm it. I've always thought that this forum had a lot more potential, than the degree of how we can insult each other!

    Ebbie, and Mouser, Thanks for your thought provoking question! I Have thought about it, but now, because I was asked, I'm going to 'brainstorm' it!

    Regards to All,

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM

    Oh, and 400!
    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:13 AM

    BP induced problems??

    1) Your first regarding the pipe used for the casing is irrelevant, the casing still holds good to this day.

    2) The second relating to the cement job. What cement job were they talking about? the one to initially set the casing? Or the one to temporarily cap the well? The first calls for the outer casing sections to be perforated, the last does not as the cement is used to form a plug. Again the blow-out has got nothing whatsoever to do with the cement

    3) Gas "kicks" and gas build up in the reservoir are exactly what the BOP is intended to cope with. The BOP failed, the BOP is designed and fitted out with 100% redundancy as far as operating systems go. One pod was leaking and no information as yet has been given as to exactly what the source of that leak was and how that leak would affect the operating capability of that pod. The other pod was functioning normally and was not subject to any leakage. Had either Government Agency or BP personnel ordered a shut down then exactly the same operations would have been undertaken to enable recovery of the leaking pod or BOP to surface.

    4) "Pipe falling into the well" Q? All that does is that it indicates carelessness on the drill floor by Transocean personnel, nothing to do with BP at all.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:39 AM

    Seriously doubt if pipe will 'fall' against the tremendous pressure, into the well!!!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:46 AM

    GfS: "Seriously doubt if pipe will 'fall' against the tremendous pressure, into the well!!!"

    Not only is that highly unlikely, what is probable, or eventual, is the pipe eroding, and then the gusher eroding the concrete even faster than the pipe. Pipe is said to be eroded half way, already!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM

    "Now the problem with dispersant is this; When you think of 'dispersants', you think it just breaks it apart, and sort of 'dissolves' the oil, and it merely washes away, but not in an oil form. But that is not the case. The dispersant that has been used, that is most effective, also breaks it down, but hugely into a gaseous material, which of course, goes into the atmosphere, and is HIGHLY toxic. Coupled with the other gasses coming up from the well, this is not able to be done safely. It's not just the sludge, that washes up on the beaches, with the dispersant in it that is toxic, which has been reported...though that PART, is also accurate"

    My understanding is the purpose of all dispersants is to break oil down into tiny droplets....(and each one has its best conditions for use). This dillutes the oil, takes the oil from the sea surface (sinks it down), and enables bacteria to act on it better (increases the surface area that bacterial can act on).

    Most compounds are toxic to a different degree to different forms and stages of sea life at high concentrations. This is also the case for oil and all dispersants. However, my understanding is the scientific assessment (of the any scientists involved) is that the use of dispersants on this oil spill(considering the amounts and the potential impacts on surfaces sepecies and coastal areas)... is a better option than just leaving the oil reach the surface untreated, where it would stay there or move onshore in big amounts.But, didpersing oil is definately not 100 percent effective, especially in these conditions. So, some oil reaches the surface, and the shorelines...but not at the levels that would occur if not used...(and if not used at source).

    Oil at the surface gives off considerable toxic fumes....especially at these levels (and, I understand this oil is lighter, which could give off more toxic compouunds to the air) Oil that is dispersed deeper into the vast ocean, would gives off much less toxic fumes into the atmosphere...and would provide a safer working environment at the sea surface site.

    While dispersed oil (aka, a plume) can be detected by scientific instruments, I doubt that well-dispersed oil would look much different than regular seawater to the naked eye.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 09:57 AM

    Give this article a read:
    http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/88/8824cover.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 02:04 PM

    A long article in the NY Times today, "Regulators Failed to Address Risks in Oil Fail-Safe Device," details concerns about shear rams and blowout preventers.

    Rather than extracts, the article is worth reading as a whole.
    "Single-point failure," such as the leakage or failure of one of the small shuttle valves in the blowout stack, could cause failure of the blind shear rams. The device is "temperamental" according to experts.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/21/us/21blowout.html?th&emc=th


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 05:40 PM

    Were those failures "BP induced" too Q??


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM

    Pssst Don, where is all this documentation you were going to bury me in?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 07:28 PM

    Sorry, Teribus, I've been neglecting you. I do have a life away from Mudcat.

    Give this a look. Sorry about the commercials, but I can't do much about that.

    GfS, you might take a good look at this, too.

    Plenty more out there, so:

    "I'll be back!"
              —The Terminator

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 21 Jun 10 - 08:53 PM

    BP-induced? Indubitably!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:18 AM

    Thank you 'Ed' and 'Q'...I'll add it to the 'data banks' and compared notes with which I've been getting. I know, I have to consider the sources, but even if something is underplayed, or falsely represented, it comes out. Sometimes when you spot a lie, it actually points the direction, as whereto look...Then ask yourselves, "Why?". (Sorta like counseling)...it's best to start out, with NO preconceptions, political, or commercial. Let's just get everything! Also, I noted in the article, that they have notched up the amount to 800,000 Barrels a day. Well that figure is still rising toward mine, by leaps and bounds! I think I posted the 800,000 number earlier, but only as info, as to how it was going up, toward what I got earlier. My first number I got was 4 million. If that turns out to be the case, I'll post my sources, for you all to check out...ok? That way, the more scouring the data, and their sources, that might turn up something, that points the way to capping it!
    Shit,, if this turns out, we might even start a band!(wink)

    I think that for the time being, I was considering how the oil could be gathered for use! Kevin Costner, testified before a Congressional hearing, about the use of centrifuges....which I heard about, a few years back, because my son was looking into investing in one. So, I familiar with these things, and the DO work,(Separating the oil from the water). Apparently they are using them, in quite a few locations, on the globe..... So when I heard of Costner promoting them, my ears perked up.
    That doesn't help cap anything, but I thought, that if anyone wanted to check in on it, you might. I don't have tons of time(that's why I was so late in responding)

    Thanks for the links, again! I'll be doing homework...in the woodshed!

    Regards,
    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 22 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM

    The problem with centrifuges, etc., is that they have to be manufactured to fit the situation and each one can handle only a small amount. Not practicable. Lots of procedures work in the lab, with small quantities, but engineering and making the devices to fit large volume situations is time-comsuming and very expensive.

    Skimmers and burning handle larger quantities but do nothing with the underwater plumes that seem to be forming. Skimmed product can be sent to refineries to remove water and make a usable product. Burning leaves behind the heaviest crude fractions (By heavy I mean the hydrocarbon compounds with large carbon molecules).

    The main hope is that the relief wells can intersect the well.

    An Op-Ed writer with the NY Times suggested today that the Navy should take over and "demolish" the well. Earlier, it was suggested that a bomb be sent down and detonated to do the same thing- but experts have cautioned that this might just split the flow into multiple channels, making control impossible.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 22 Jun 10 - 04:31 PM

    I put a link in my post of 21 Jun 10 - 07:28 p.m. and when I checked yesterday, it was there and working. Today it seems to have disappeared. Dunno what happened!

    Anyway, here it is again:    CLICKY.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 22 Jun 10 - 06:02 PM

    That 60 Minutes report describes the early damage to the annulus of the blowout preventer, and continuing poor decisions. A good piece of reporting.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 03:17 AM

    Q and Don, In your video, they just said that Mike Williams, chief engineer(pick this up, at 1:32 minutes into the video), had just dug the deepest well, in history, at 35,000 feet!..the same number that I came up with, on my first post here!!!5,000 to the bottom, and 30,000 more. I just wanted to point that out, because as I've previously posted, and maintained, that they have been falsely reporting a lot of stuff. Thank you Don(shit, did I SAY THAT??--wink), for your link.

    As soon as they fess up to the real pressure numbers, and the amount REALLY coming up, as well, then us 'peons' will have a better grasp, on the REAL dilemma facing capping it...and how little time they have, before it wears larger!   

    Also, I posted the bit about the radius area around the 'spill', and new .....wait a minute, Here's my original post...:

    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM

    Anyway, we're getting 'warmer'!

    Also, my advice to Mudcatters that have friends and relatives in or around the area, tell them to leave calmly NOW, before it gets to be a region in chaos, sickness and death!

    Still doing homework on it!

    Thank you all for your co-operation!

    Regards!
    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Donuel
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 09:53 AM

    The destruction of generations of birds, dolphin, turtles, blue fin tuna and smaller fish due to the spill, are the LEAST of my concerns.

    My concern is the microscopic life we can not see such as phytoplancton, diatoms and tiny animals that comprise the very foundation of life in the waters and shores of the sea.

    This invisible life determines all the rest of animal and plant life.
    The big life forms we sea dying in agony is but the outer skin of onion.

    The story of the invisible foundation of life will take about a year before it is openly discussed.

    ------------------------

    As for BP we all owe an apology to all of its billionaire owners right down to the most modest workers because we all undoubtedly enjoy and consume the benefits of the energy they produce. The price of oil is artificially low just as nuclear power electricity is low since we do not include the cost of the waste, accidents and global consequences in our energy bill.

    We are all both the victims and the perpetators.
    When we are blinded by the buck it is exquisitly easy to make horrendous choices.

    When BP goes to drill in the slushy frozen methane depths in the Artic I am certain there will be more enormous spill, albeit those spills will be easier to hide disguise and lie about.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: dick greenhaus
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 11:05 AM

    Donuel-
    re "just as nuclear power electricity is low since we do not include the cost of the waste, accidents and global consequences in our energy bill'

    What waste, accidents and global consequences are you referring to?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 11:17 AM

    Three Mile Island and Chernobyl come to mind. I can't help wonder if there weren't other, lesser accidents that were covered up, if you know what I mean. Not exactly an "accident" but the ground in and around the Hanford Nuclear Reservation in eastern Washington State will be radioactive until further notice. This can't be the only place in the world where this is the case. Nuclear energy is mostly safe. It's the unsafe bits papered over by that mostly that worry me.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: SINSULL
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 12:55 PM

    OOPS!
    Adm. Thad Allen said Wednesday that an accident triggered the removal of a containment cap on the oil geyser. Officials are examining the cap to look for hydrate formation and hope to replace it on the gushing well.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM

    Three Mile Island and Chernobyl come to mind.

    & Hanford and Vermont Yankee and............


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM

    I've a mind to start a thread, "British oil company attacks US coastal waters"


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM

    No sweat, GfS. I do support what you say when you're right.

    But the big question I have is just how deep IS that well? I've heard several reports from people in authority who all agree that the sea floor at that point is a mile down. But they can't seem to agree on the depth from there. I've heard everything from "1,300 feet" to "13,000 feet" to "30,000 feet" to "a total of three miles" (from surface to bottom of drill hole) to "seven miles."

    And all of these figures come from persons who claim to be in the know.

    So—?

    Since I haven't put on my scuba gear, swum down, and measured it personally, I'm waiting to hear something definitive.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 03:39 PM

    Don, the reporters are confusing several points. I think I posted bad info on depth as a result.
    The drilling ability of the Transocean rig at Macondo is roughly 30,000 feet. Its maximum drilling capability is 8000-10,000 feet of water.

    Quoting from "Offshore Technology" - "The initial exploration for the project was submitted bu BP to MMS in march 2009. The plan included drilling and temporary abandonment of two exploration wells over the prospect. ........
    "The rig started drilling a well at water depth of 5000ft in MC Block 252 in February 2010, but exploded during drilling in April 2010.
    "The well was planned to be drilled to 18,000 feet, and was to be plugged and abandoned for later completion as a subsea producer."

    Now in more detail from "O&G" - "According to the oil drum, the drilling depth at the Macondo well had reached a total depth of 18,360 feet, with the previous casing shoe at 17,168 feet. The annulus or drill hole was eight and one-half inches in diameter, with the Rotary Kelly Bushing (RKB) to mud line 5067 feet. .........
    A casing was run the entire length of the drill pipe, at seven inches by nine 7/8 inches from the total depth up to the wellhead. The casing had beeb cemented using ca. 100 bbls slurry. There were no losses and the plug was bumped. No back flow was observed after displacement. Top of cement is est. at 16,200 feet.
    The casing was tested to 2650 psi, with the blind shear rams closed."
    The rest of the article details the sequence of events leading to the explosion, including removal of the oil-based mud.
    "Some problems with the inflow-draw down test, but it was deemed satisfactory" "As a result the annular or dril pipe, would have been opened up to seawater, which meant that the oil-based mud was transferred to a supply boat...."
    "........pressure from the annulus had dropped and increased, presumably due to escaping gas, which eventually led to the explosion.
    The rest details the pressures, the explosion, etc.
    http://www.ngoilgas.com/article/why-the-macondo-well-exploded


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM

    Thanks, Q.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Stringsinger
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM

    "Three Mile Island and Chernobyl come to mind.

    & Hanford and Vermont Yankee and............"

    Savannah River Plant. Dead zones around the area.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 23 Jun 10 - 07:49 PM

    Just follow the advice of the advs. on TV, stick with clean coal.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:31 AM

    Don: "Since I haven't put on my scuba gear, swum down, and measured it personally, I'm waiting to hear something definitive.

    Don Firth"

    You can use mine!....I haven't in a few years!

    Don: "No sweat, GfS. I do support what you say when you're right."

    Well, at least THIS time..(wink).

    As to the figures that I posted, I'm still sticking with them, including the toxins in the air. Until I hear anything definitive otherwise...IF I do, I shall immediately post an amendment. So far, everything that I'm getting, since, supports my source....including some on here.
    Don's posted link, was a surprise to me, that SOMEONE, on national 'news' covered that same figure.

    Anyway, I've gotta check to see if anything newer has come in. If I get something, I'll pass it to you.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 24 Jun 10 - 03:04 PM

    Okey dokey.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: katlaughing
    Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM

    My apologies for coming in late, but I didn't want to start another thread, so thought this one might be the best suited for the following about far right candidates in Colorado and BP:

    So that's what right wing politicians are "begging the energy industry" for--campaign cash.
    First, it was the candidate for Colorado Governor who vowed he would "beg the energy industry for forgiveness" for daring to protect our state from irresponsible drilling. Then a spokesman for Jane Norton claimed the President "forced" oil giant BP into a "slush fund" to compensate people along the Gulf coast.

    Now, Rep. Cory Gardner, a Republican running for Marilyn Musgrave's former House seat, is holding a fundraiser in Washington D.C.--hosted by one of BP's chief lobbyists! (Ft. Collins Coloradoan, 6/23/2010) The kind of arrogance we're seeing today from the right wing is truly stunning to behold.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 24 Jun 10 - 08:53 PM

    From
    http://www.nalco.com/news-and-events/4348.htm


    INACCURACY: COREXIT dispersant will evaporate into clouds and come back down in the rain
    FACT: COREXIT dispersants are made to disperse oil into the water column and not to evaporate. They biodegrade into the water and are not released back into the atmosphere. In fact, Admiral Thad Allen noted at a June 11 press conference that the primary surface use of Corexit is to protect worker safety.
    http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/doctype/2931/54095/


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 24 Jun 10 - 10:16 PM

    Nalco is the manufacturer of the Corexit dispersants.
    If Corexit is so safe, why did Exxon Biomedical Services describe its "Acute Toxicity" in a peer-reviewed journal?
    See my post of 17 June, 2:59pm, for a link to the article.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: robomatic
    Date: 24 Jun 10 - 11:03 PM

    BP Is Burning Turtles Alive Gulf Captain Says


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 25 Jun 10 - 08:30 AM

    Turtles? Fuck 'em! I need to drive my HumVee and 40-foot "Recreational Vee-Hickle"


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 25 Jun 10 - 12:48 PM

    Oh, we knew we'd lose a few gulls, you know.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 25 Jun 10 - 01:18 PM

    "A lawyer's dream"
    Dan Pickering, co-president of Tudor, Pickering, Holt & Co., an energy-focused investment bank in Houston, said,
    "Everybody's going to be pointing fingers at each other," he said. Anadarko is going to be arguing with BP over the well design, BP is going to be pointing fingers at the service companies for the well drilling and evaluation process and the service companies are going to be pointing fingers back at BP, claiming it's BP's oversight and indemnification. it's a lawyer's dream."

    A Transocean spokesman (owner of the rig) noted that its contract with BP requires BP to indemnify it. Its president said BP has agreed to assume full responsibility for the costs and the liability of pollution and contamination."

    A spokeswoman for Haliburton noted that its contract "requires the well owner to defend and indemnify Haliburton for all potential liability claims and expenses arising from the blowout," aside from claims of Haliburton employees.

    An expert in tort law at Wake Forest suggested BP might try to argue in court that other companies involved in the drilling process were negligent- e. g., manufactured of the blowout preventer.

    Lloyd's of London asked a federal judge in Texas to declare that it would not have to cover BP's "excess liability" in cleanup, etc., arguing that Transocean's contract limits insurance protection to pollution "originating above the surface of the land or water."

    Anadarko (25%) has said it will fight any claims. Investors have fled, lopping off $19 billion in market value.

    Mitsui (10%) said the company had given up its interest in oil from the well, hoping relinquishing its interest will shield it from liability.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 25 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

    The above from NY Times, June 25, 2010


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 25 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM

    I know there are a great many people who tout nuclear energy and wonder why in the world the US doesn't embrace it. I think this article explains it quite well.

    Nuclear the Answer to Fossil Fuels?

    Snippet:

    "Not in decades has the nuclear option looked more attractive. Earlier this year, the government extended funding to build two new reactors at the Vogtle plant in Georgia, likely the first reactors to go online since 1996, and a lot more may be in the works. Oil and coal disasters like Massey and Deepwater Horizon may be some of the best arguments for nuclear power.

    "They may also be some of the best arguments against it. Disasters like Deepwater Horizon highlight troubling truths about natural resources. But they also point to some equally troubling truths about accidents and worst-case scenarios."

    Snippet:

    "But for all the attractions of nuclear, there remains the looming question of what happens if things go wrong. Nuclear power suffers from what you can think of as a paradox of catastrophe: The worst-case scenario is so terrible that we are actually less able to quantify it and consider its ramifications than we are with other potential disasters. We implicitly recognize this in the laws governing the nuclear industry, which cap the industry's liability for an accident at $10 billion.

    "Everybody understands that in the event of a real nuclear catastrophe, that would be a drop in the bucket. The truth is that the costs of that would be so great that we simply put it in the category of those near-inconceivables we don't want to consider. Which is all the more reason to consider it."


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 25 Jun 10 - 04:46 PM

    "If Corexit is so safe, why did Exxon Biomedical Services describe its "Acute Toxicity" in a peer-reviewed journal"?


    Considering all dispersants have toxic effects, at specific concentrations, and have a range of effectiveness in specific situations, better questions could be:

    1)What vulnerable assets is a priority for protection?

    2)Is leaving the oil undispersed less environmentally safe than using dispersants (I believe a large group of scientific experts considered and ruled that using dispersants was the best choice).

    Once a decision is made that the benefits (environmental and ecosystem, wildlife workers health, social, economic, and coastal assets and danger of it spreading farther if untreated) of using dispersants outweighs not using them: dispersants:

    3)Among all the available dispersant options, which ones are more effective, and causes fewer environmental concerns,from labratory testing and expert scientific advice,.....short and long term. (Let's not forget that few dispersants, if any, were tested under these extreme circumstances. Some, while less toxic, were developed and tested to be suitable for use in warmer, near shore,and shallow waters).


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 25 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM

    This is the first use of dispersants at depth.

    EPA- "effects of underwater dispersant use on the environment are still widely unknown, which is why we are testing to determine its effectiveness first and foremost."
    US National Wildlife Federation head, Larry Schweiger, said the method of using underwater dispersant at the source of the leak was untested and could have devastating effects.
    National Academy of Sciences, 2005- These dispersants "do not actually reduce the total amount of oil entering the environment."
    Studies of dispersant after the Exxon Valdez spill suggest that the toxicity of chemically dispersed oil is similar to that of physically dispersed oil.
    Small droplets of oil and dispersant are toxic to microorganisms as well as spawning fisheries, and could affect shrimp larvae as well.

    http://priceofoil/2010/05/07/epa-says-effect-of-dispersants-at-depth-unknown/

    The Deepwater Horizon Response Center-
    "Coast Guard and EPA approve use of dispersant subsea in further effort to prevent oil from reaching U.S. shoreline. Agencies reserve authority to stop use of the dispersant at any time."
    "The use of the dispersant at the source of the leak represents a novel approach to addressing the significant environmental threat posed by the spill. Preliminary testing results indicate that subsea use of the dispersant is effective in reducing the amount of oil from reaching the surface- and can do so with the use of less dispersant than is needed when the oil does reach the surface. This is an important step to reduce the potential for damage from oil reaching fragile wetlands and coastal areas."

    "While BP pursues the use of subsea dispersants, the federal government will require regular analysis of its effectiveness and impact on the environment, water and air quality, and human health......
    "The federal government will work with caution and strong oversight and reserves the right to discontinue the use of the dispersant method if any negative impacts on the environment outweigh the benefits."

    In other words, the dispersant use is experimental; it smacks of doing something that may be no better (or may be worse?) than doing nothing.

    http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/doc/2931/551271/


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 25 Jun 10 - 08:34 PM

    "In other words, the dispersant use is experimental; it smacks of doing something that may be no better (or may be worse?) than doing nothing".


    Maybe yes, maybe no.

    Before EPA let BP use dispersants at source (as opposed to the ineffective air spraying of weathered oil), they had to be proven it disperses the oil....as no one knew if it would be effective.   That was proven to be so....check out the science reports on the effectiveness, near and far field.

    A significant amount of the oil was kept from the surface (aka the plumes)...allowing the workers to work in a safer environment, and reducing the amount of oil reaching the surface (where it could do more immediate harm to surface species) and on the shores and sensitive wetlands. I suspect a trade off for the lesser of two bad situations.

    Q, none of those statements or links you provide show much that is new, nor unknown. The environmental impact of dispersant use (any of them) in such a large spill (like a major oil spill every day), and in such deep waters is not modeled, studied mor known.

    But, that alone does not rule out the other reasons for using them that I noted. If, at a minimum, they are no worse environmentally than the oil without dispersants....the other reasons for their use (protecting shorelands, wetlands, limiting the surface spread and specied damage....along with protecting workers safety) makes sense to me. For the vast amount of oil released, a surprisingly low amount (IMO) has reached shorelines.....and there were long periods where no dispersants were applied at source.

    During Exxon Valdez they steamed cleaned shorelines, when it was known that it did more harm than good (killed the beneficial bacteria), possibly to show the public they were doing something.

    At least, in this case, scientists were consulted and a measured decision was made based on the greatest good in a tough situation, where spill technology and science has never been before.

    Was it the right decision? Time will tell.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 25 Jun 10 - 10:09 PM

    Dispersants were also used in the Exxon Valdez spill; there was insufficient wave action to mix the dispersant with the oil and water. The Coast Guard concluded the dispersant was not working and its use was discontinued.
    www.epa.gov/oem/content/learning/exxon.htm

    Studies performed on organisms exposed to these dispersants after the cleanup found that the dispersants accumulate in living organisms at very high concentrations and harmed the developing hearts of both pacific herring and pink salmon embryos.
    The Acad Sci. 2005 report showed that toxicity increases significantly after sun exposure (most lab work done under fluorescents).
    www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/05/oil_public_health_html

    We have no way of knowing the long-term effects of this toxicity.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 25 Jun 10 - 11:02 PM

    The latest NOAA Gulf spill map shows a large oil plume is moving closer to St. Petersburg, Florida (227 miles). Depths plotted to 3000 feet.

    Multiple plumes have been spotted. University of South Florida scientists have confirmed that the oil mixed with oil spill chemical dispersants create dead zones where oxygen is depleted in the water. Marine life cannot survive under the influence of the plumes.
    "Newly released photos and videos have led the scientific community to conclude that there has been such a massive amount of oil and chemical disbursants dumped into the Gulf of Mexico there is no way to avoid catastrophic consequences....."
    Tampa Florida Examiner June 23.

    http://www.examiner.com/x-55371-Tampa-Gulf-Oil-Spill-Examiner~y2010m6d23-NOAA-Gulf-oil-spill-map-shows-deadly-oil-plume-moving-closer-to-St-Petersburg-Florida

    Statement from governor's office, Florida-
    "According to the NOAA oil plume model, the oil plume is 4 miles from Pensacola, 73 miles from Mexico Beach and 285 miles from St. Petersburg. 24 June 2010.
    www.thegovmonitor.com


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 26 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

    "We have no way of knowing the long-term effects of this toxicity"

    Is someone arguing against that? I did not see it anywhere here?

    Considering the volumes involved, I suspect the impact of boh the oil and dispersants will be seen in organisms for some time.

    The point is that the dispersants used at source in this case worked to do what was intended (outside of long term biological uncertainities). On the sea surface they did not, and it was mostly discontinured.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Donuel
    Date: 26 Jun 10 - 09:49 AM

    Ed T
    People are arguing that we do know the long term toxic oil effects at least in terms of human respiratory damage. A woman who worked to clean some of the Exxon Valdez spill has suffered the toxic effects of oil for the last 22 years. She appeared on the Rachel Maddow show friday and said that she will march the length of the spoiled Gulf shores wearing appropriate respirators and clothing which BP forbids any of its cleaning crews to wear under threat of being fired.



    ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    We had a powerful but brief downpour here on Wed. Never before had I seen all the roads build up with piles of sudswhereaver tires stirred the pooling water. Every road we took be it new roads or old raods all had the same detergent like foam.

    WHAT IS THIS CAUSED BY ?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 26 Jun 10 - 09:56 AM

    "People are arguing that we do know the long term toxic oil effects"
    I am refering to on Mudcat and on this thread. I do not see anyone arguing that, as Q seemed to indicate. I certainly am not.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 26 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

    My point is that the Corexit dispersants may cause more long term damage than not using it at all.

    Nalco's Corexit forms an oil-dispersant-water mixture, which is too heavy to float upward, and not heavy enough to sink to the bottom (EPA papers). This mixture is the oil plume, which remains in the water column and can be moved long distances by underwater currents.

    Any organisms in the water will ingest the mixture, and if they are food of other organisms, the oil-dispersant mixture will be passed up the food chain. Moreover, it has been shown that oxygen levels are reduced when the mixture is present.
    EPA data, summarized by Donald Reinhardt, medical microbiology consultant, Emeritus Prof. Georgia State Univ., writing for suite101.com.

    From Physorg.com-
    "U.S. scientists have charted vast oil plumes from the gushing BP well........, and warn that the impact of the "invisible" undersea oil may be felt for years.
    One fish scientist has warned that the dispersant-oil mix could wipe out dozens of species of fish (Chakrabarty).
    Paul Montagna, marine ecologist at Harte Research Inst. for Gulf Mexico Studies, says oil is getting dispersed through the water column. "What that means is that basically life in the entire water column is now being exposed."

    Chris D'Elia, dean of School of Coast & Environment at Louisiana State University, says that the microbes (being touted as a solution) consume oxygen. The problem is that these microbes end up consuming oxygen in the process and there is a tremendous amount of oil that needs to be consumed. "The toxicity alone or the bod (biological oxygen demand) problem alone are substantial issues."

    "When you start adding the two together, God only knows what's going on."

    http://www.physorg.com/news193379649.html

    Dr. Shirley, Texas A&M marine biologist, quoted in Nature, said the plume could cause a barrier that blocks the up-and-down daily migration of numerous organisms, and could block the flow of particles of organic debris from the surface to the deep where they are a critical food source.

    www.nature.com/news/2010/100518/full/4652741.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Donuel
    Date: 26 Jun 10 - 06:13 PM

    Does the dispersant kill the microscopic foundation of the food chain in the gulf, such as diatoms and phytoplankton?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:21 PM

    Effect on foundation of the food chain in the Gulf? The short answer is thay we don't know.

    Ed Overton, Louisiana State Univ.- "We don't know whether it's affecting wildlife or not. We're right in the middle of this. We really won't know for a while yet."

    Samantha Joye, University of Georgia, researcher and cruise leader tracking underwater oil plumes-
    "Dispersants are a complicated topic. No one that I have spoken to about this has a full understanding of what the full range of dispersant effects might be. How do dispersants influence microorganisms and microbially-mediated processes? I don't know. How do they impact fish, larvae, phytoplankton, shrimp? I don't know the answer to that either."
    She saysi dispersants break oil into smaller particles that keeps oil off the beaches but "I am not convinced this is a good thing because there are so many potential unknown effects of dispersants."
    .........by keeping the oil in the water instead of at the surface, other organisms suffer."

    Mitchelmore, Univ. Maryland- When you add dispersant, organisms are exposed to oil that wouldn't have been. Dissolved oil can go directly across organisms' membranes...... it can stick to gills."

    George Crozier, Dauphin Island Sea Lab, Alabama- "A lot of organisms that can swim are probably saying this doesn't smell good or taste good and leaving, but the plankton that forms the base of the food chain doesn't have that option."

    Andy Nyman, Louisiana State Univ.-
    "We found that working with South Louisiana crude and COREXIT 9500, the dispersed oil was more toxic than the undispersed oil initially and even six months later," he said.
    The plankton and a tiny worm- the major food source for shrimp- were the most sensitive.
    In the Gulf, Nyman said, "I would expect the dispersed oil to be more toxic and for the effects to last longer unless I saw data otherwise."
    Another concern with dispersants is that by keeping oil in the water column where microbes can degrade it, oxygen levels in the water can drop to potentially dangerous levels as the microbes feed on the oil and consume oxygen.

    In other words, scientists working on the Gulf don't know, but are worried.

    More later. Above extracted from Discovery News
    http://news.discovery.com/earth/oil-dispersants-wildlife.html


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM

    Crozier (see above) and colleague Monty Graham at the Dauphin Island Sea Lab, Alabama, have identified a zone of low oxygen emerging off the Alabama shore that is kilely due to oil. Sampling.... showed reduced numbers and types of animals in the ares, suggesting mobile animals are leaving tha area. Plankton in the low oxygen zone appeared dead, Graham said.

    This is the first time the dispersants have been used underwater in a spill response.
    "I think that was terribly ill-advised," Crozier said. "It's keeping the oil unseen and very difficult to find and impossible, ultimately, to clean up."

    Mitchelmore (see above) said, "Dispersant use has always been full of uncertainties. A lot ot these were identified in (a report) in 1989," she continued. "What is the point of doing these reports and finding these data gaps if no one ever looks at them?"
    The above is more from Discovery News.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 26 Jun 10 - 11:11 PM

    At issue is the relyance of government on the good will of industry to answer many of the questions and care for the environment...and reduce funding for government recearch.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i0-vrkse69xsLJHx1KBZUj7rDJyAD9GJ5A6O2


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 27 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM

    Hi guys!
    Ed T and Q were discussing this, so I just got this in, today.

    Ed T: "At issue is the reliance of government on the good will of industry to answer many of the questions and care for the environment...and reduce funding for government research."

    I got this E-mail, today..it addresses some stuff, that we've covered, verifies some others...and poses some questions. You may find it of interest.

    (This is a new source, and I haven't checked it all out, yet, but it sounded consistent, with other info I had received)



                   

        Vol: 105 Issue: 24 - Thursday, June 24, 2010

        Ensuring The Worst Case Scenario? One of the most enduring features
        surrounding the Gulf Oil Spill now entering its third month of belching oil
        from the seafloor is the fact that no matter how bad the most recent
        worst-case scenario speculation, the next one will be even more terrifying.

        The base-line measures of the crisis have steadily worsened. The estimated
        flow rate keeps rising. The spill is already worse than anybody could have
        anticipated and there remains no end in sight.

        According to point man Admiral Thad Allen of the US Coast Guard, the reason
        that BP stopped pumping mud into the well in last month's "top kill" effort
        was fear the effort would damage the casing and open new channels for oil to
        leak into the rock formations.
       
        "I think that one thing that nobody knows is the condition of the well
        bore from below the blowout preventer down to the actual oil field itself,"
        Allen said last week. "We don't know if the well bore has been compromised
        or not."

        Making things worse, the admiral said, was the fact that the blowout
        preventer is 'leaning'.

          "The entire arrangement has kind of listed a little bit," he said.
        Bruce Bullock, director of the Maguire Energy Institute at Southern
        Methodist University, says one of the characteristics of the Deepwater
        Horizon blowout is its unpredictability.

        He said the deep-sea 'plumes' of oil detected by research vessels are
        probably not from the blowout but possibly from additional leaks caused by
        either the drilling or the blowout.

        Nobody knows how much oil is actually seeping into the Gulf.
        "I actually have a document that shows that BP actually believes it could go
        upwards of 100,000 barrels per day," Rep Ed Markey [D-Mass] said on NBC's
        "Meet the Press."
          "So, again, right from the beginning, BP was either lying or grossly
        incompetent. First they said it was only 1,000. Then they said it was 5,000
        barrels. Now we're up to 100,000 barrels."
        Senator Charles Grassley [R-Ia) released a BP document entitled "Maximum
        Discharge Calculation." The document was published internally was based on
        theoretical calculations made before drilling began.

        That document says given the most "optimistic assumptions" about the size of
        the reservoir and the intensity of the pressure at depth and assuming a
        total loss of well control and no inhibitions on the flow, "a maximum case
        discharge of 162,000 barrels per day was estimated."

        BP recalculated after the Deepwater Horizon blew up and came up with what it
        called a "more reasonable" worst-case scenario of between 40,000 and 60,000
        barrels per day. A 'barrel' of oil is roughly 42 gallons.

        About the only thing that we ARE sure of (we being the public) is that
        everybody is lying about it. BP is looking to mitigate the damage to its
        corporate image and its bottom line.

        Members of the Congress are looking for ways to use the oil spill to
        mitigate the damage to their own re-election prospects.

        Admiral Thad Allen is looking for ways to make it appear that the government's
        intervention is helping, rather than hindering efforts at both plugging the
        hole and cleaning up the damage.

        The truth is that every one of them is lying. Nobody knows how bad the spill
        really is or how many other leaks it may have caused.   At the same time,
        nobody wants to admit that they don't know.

        Except Matt Simmons, founder of Simmons and Co. Simmons and Co. is an oil
        investment firm. He claims that he does know and that the news is much
        worse than anybody else believes.

        Simmons says the leak that BP is focusing on at the "riser" is not the
        problem. The real problem is a gaping hole at the "well head," 8 miles away.
        "The riser leak is a deception," says Simmons. "The hole is in the well
        head — it's the well bore."
       
        "When they [the research vessel Thomas Jefferson] finally got the
        permission to circle the three-mile radius," of the well, "once they got up
        wind [of the blast], within 20 minutes all the crew [of the boat] were
        nauseous, and several people are still in the hospital. There is benzene
        coming out of that stuff. If a hurricane finally blows up the Gulf, we could
        have millions of people die."
        According to Simmons, the ultimate worst-case scenario has not yet even been
        contemplated.
       
        "We're going to have to evacuate the Gulf States. Can you imagine
        evacuating 20 million people? . . . This story is 80 times worse than I
        thought."

        Only eighty times worse?

        Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal sent a letter to Secretary of Defense Robert
        Gates asking the Defense Department for six thousand active duty military
        personnel to be dispatched to the Gulf to aid the Louisiana National Guard.

        Jindal says that the reason he needs federal troops is because the National
        Guard is busy preparing for just such a possible evacuation.
       
        "Currently, our Soldiers and Airmen are staging for and are engaged in
        the planning of the effort to evacuate and provide security and clean up for
        the coastal communities expected to be impacted by the oil spill."

        If the well isn't capped soon, the toxic gases from the well, together with
        the highly toxic Corexit 9500 chemical dispersant being used will eventually
        force the evacuation of the Gulf States.

        It may already be too late.

        Assessment:

        Those living in Florida are presently at the highest risk, but the danger
        also appears likely to spread to all Gulf Coast states east of Louisiana --
        and possibly even to the entire Eastern half of the United States once
        hurricane season begins.

        The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has already declared the airspace
        over the oil spill site to be a no-fly zone until further notice. As we're
        already seen, various sources have indicated that local police, highway
        patrol, National Guard, US military and foreign troops may be involved in an
        operation to evacuate the Gulf Coast.

        Since the Deepwater Horizon first exploded, the role of the federal
        government has largely been confined to blaming BP for the spill, demanding
        reparations for the spill, but nothing to stop the spill.

        Had the White House mobilized every oil skimming rig in the country and
        accepted foreign assistance offers, much of the oil now threatening the
        American coastline could have been skimmed off.

        Seemingly inexplicably, the White House has largely taken a "hands off"
        approach -- apart from talking about it, that is. In short, it seems as if
        the White House is simply allowing the spill to proceed.

        The federal government shut down the dredging that was being done to create
        protective sand berms in the Gulf of Mexico.
        The berms are meant to protect the Louisiana coastline from oil. But the
        U.S. Fish and Wildlife Department has concerns about where the dredging is
        being done.

        The department says one area where sand is being dredged is an ecologically
        sensitive section of the Chandeleur Islands!
        So efforts to protect the entire coast from ecological destruction was
        ordered halted to protect one endangered section of beach. Plaquemines

        Parish President Billy Nungesser, who was one of the most vocal advocates of
        the dredging plan, sent a letter to President Barack Obama, pleading for the
        work to continue.

          "Once again, our government resource agencies, which are intended to
        protect us, are now leaving us vulnerable to the destruction of our
        coastline and marshes by the impending oil," he wrote. "Furthermore, with
        the threat of hurricanes or tropical storms, we are being put at an
        increased risk for devastation to our area from the intrusion of oil."

        Despite his plea, work on the sand berms halted at midnight Wednesday. Why?
        Since September 11, 2001 the United States has been in a state of national
        emergency, which means that martial law can be declared by the President at
        any time and for any reason.

        A declaration of martial law authorizes temporary rule by military
        authorities. Under martial law, civil rights are suspended and civilian
        courts are restricted or supplanted by military tribunals.

        Although a declaration of martial law is theoretically temporary, there are
        no time limits. A state of martial law, once declared, can be extended
        indefinitely.

        The forced evacuation of as many as 80 million Americans from the Gulf Coast
        region would indeed necessitate such a declaration.   In an evacuation, the
        federal government would determine when and where evacuees would be moved to
        and for how long.

        Martial law would not be confined to the Gulf States -- since the evacuees
        would have to be relocated inland across the United States, so too would
        military rule.

        Under the provisions of martial law, the president could also order the
        suspension of national elections until the national emergency is over.
        Her's the real kicker. The only one that can declare the national emergency
        "over" and rescind a declaration of martial law is President Barack Hussein
        Obama.

        And suddenly, it all starts to makes sense!!!
      If this isn't over our one-screen limit for non-music copy-pastes, it's awfully close. If it's longer than one screen, please summarize it or post and excerpt, and supply a link.
      Thanks.
      -Joe Offer-


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 27 Jun 10 - 09:03 AM

    GFS, IMO, quite an alarming and speculative article. If such a dark and broad conspiracy were to exist...there would not seem any point in trusting anyone about anything?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 27 Jun 10 - 11:30 AM

    Well, Ed....what politician do YOU trust? I find that NONE of them could have risen very far up, into the political world....BY TELLING THE TRUTH! Which ones serve the people...OVER their own interests? How many flip flop on issues, based on their re-electability? How often do their 'constituents' argue amongst themselves, to explain away elected, or aspiring to be elected politician's actions, just so they can still believe in them?...no matter how many times their hopes are dashed by them??....disappointed by them...or embarrassed by them? I think their constituents are FAR more loyal to them, than the politician to the constituents.

    Deceit, by its very nature is undetectable!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 27 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM

    "What politician do YOU trust?"

    That seems like another issue, and another discussion. For the theory in the article to have weight, many others, from many professions, would need to be involved and likely complacent. Is this the scenario you put forward and want is to have trust in?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 27 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM

    The situation is bad enough without doomsday predictions.

    Much of the reason for the confusion is that no one really knows the consequences of the oil volcano (I find the word spill inadequate) or how to fight it.
    All methods being tried are palliative and/or experimental. Intersecting the well by drilling hopefully will work, but effects still will be evident for years even if the intersect drilling is successful.

    Weak regulation by MMS,
    unnecessary fears about oil shortage (fueled by bad politics),
    drilling in advance of development of safe engineering technology,
    failure to expand substitute means of generating energy (which will take years to become important contributors),
    and a company(s) and investors (us!) with a cowboy attitude of damn the cautions, the pot of gold awaits,
    all have contributed to the catastrophe.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 27 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM

    I have to agree with you in your last post Q.

    Add to that, the lack of funding for non-industry science and technology to deal with oil spills and their environmental impacts. Far too much trust is placed in industry to find solutions to problems they could and do cause.

    IMO, we are seeing the results of a nonsense philosophy that industry is best at writing all the rules and doing all the research to protect society, and enforce them through voluntary compliance....(that did not work too well for other sectors to enforce themselves, like the food industry)

    Since goverments are mostly broke....it would seem prudent for governbments to either tax industry or the end user to fund more research and technology.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 27 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

    Not particularly. However, the amount of misinformation, coming from all sides SHOULD be of concern to ALL of us!. Remember, that it is our FREEDOM that has allowed America the ability to become as great as we are. One advantage that we've had, when it is fully operational is the information and intelligence pool, that causes us to be able to draw, and find solutions, for problems that we have overcome, in the past. FREEDOM of speech, and integrity, to meet the challenges, is an integral part of doing just that!..When information is tainted, for whatever reason, especially political aspirations, or agendas, and solutions are withheld, to accommodate those two things, we fall backwards. Inventions, innovations, new ideas generally does not come from bureaucrats, attempting to secure their employment, or 'move up the ladder' pushing pencils. It is the THINKERS, from ALL sectors of this society, that the answers come....not those who wish to manipulate the outcome, by binding the masses, with lies, corruption and general bullshit!

    Sometimes, I've disagreed with some posts on here..but in my 'thinking time', perhaps during the rest of the day, I logically consider the differences, and incorporate those into my reasoning processes, which, in turn, widens and grows. I would hope that for all of us. In my case, where I am composing large pieces of music, which incorporates a wide spectrum of emotions, and images, I find it rather helpful....as I hope mine do for you. One frustration, I've experienced, while on here, is some of the blind, non-thinking political dogmatic rhetoric, which some, willingly subscribe to, causing them to be...umm..let's say, 'less than bright'...or compassionate.

    That being said, may this be a reminder, may our thoughts go upward, and beneficial to creativity in ways to bring an uplifting understanding, to us..and to all those who hear it in our music, and lives


    Regards,
    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spil
    From: Stringsinger
    Date: 27 Jun 10 - 01:59 PM

    It's amazing to me the arrogance and ignorance that is expounded in defense of BP not to be blamed for its "hole in the earth" and the idiocy of claiming that they know what will happen as a result of this disaster by those who sound like Tony Hayward, "Trust us, we have everything under control". Rampant corporatists and technological sociopathic behavior is being trotted out by the so-called "experts" on this thread. I don't care who worked for BP or AMOCO or any other irresponsible drilling operation, it is all denial of the most insidious sort. The claim that there was any vestige of responsibility for the safety of the drilling operations is completely without merit.

    Can you imagine this arrogance and ignorance being applied to the nuclear energy companies? We'll have Three Mile Islands and Chernobyls happening more frequently now since we can defend the lack of safety concerns by energy corporations.

    BP is the tip of the iceberg.

    In a sense, the corporate world has declared war on the U.S. Maybe Britain has as well, since they house BP. It is after all British Petroleum.

    BP apologists make a mockery of the logic that undoubtably caused this disaster.
    It is unregulated capitalism, a weakening of the U.S. government through the lax regulatory agencies, a limpid defense of off-shore drilling in spite of the risks it poses,
    an economy that relies on oil for wartime purposes to run expensive weaponry and aircraft, and a series of nutty "experts" who claim to know something about the assault
    on the American Gulf region. The results speak for themselves. The American Gulf Coast has been ruined, probably irrevocably and the lives of the inhabitants damaged for a long time. This has become the American way of life where the lives of innocent people in foreign countries are taken for the benefit of corporate capitalism but also the destruction of lives in our own country.

    The politicians in our Senate and House have been bought and sold.

    Also, the corporation have been the Frankenstein Monster created by none other than Supreme Court Justice John Roberts in his ruling re: Citizens United where he has declared
    this Monster a "person" with privileges equal (or some cases more equal) to an American citizen.

    It all fits into a neat picture of corruption, dysfunction, sociopathy and a broken system of government. It's a tacit acceptance of Gordon Greco's pronouncement, "Greed is good".

    What has to be done is resistance against the corporate world, the dysfunction of equivocating politicians, the refusal to accept the rhetoric of the BP's of the world
    and organizing on the grass roots level to create an alternate universe.

    I don't trust apologists for BP or any of the rhetoric on this thread by those who claim to be "experts". They are part of the problem. Instead we must face the destructive reality that this hubris, wonkishness and so-called expertise has caused the Gulf Disaster and can lead to other tragedies and organize to resist them.

    I think that the communities in the Gulf have already realized that this is their only way out of this quagmire.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 27 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM

    I recall wise lyrics of Bob Dylan, who (IMO) got it right in his song:

    "But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
    You're gonna have to serve somebody,
    It may be the devil, or it may be the Lord
    But, you're gonna have to serve somebody"

    I kind'a know whose interests the oil industry serves, the corporate folks and its shareholders.

    But, the real question is, whose interests are governments serving at any particular time (up front, and behind the scenes), that of society, local small industry and the environment, or the folks who fund the election of their party?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 28 Jun 10 - 02:02 AM

    Ed T: "But, the real question is, whose interests are governments serving at any particular time (up front, and behind the scenes), that of society, local small industry and the environment, or the folks who fund the election of their party?"

    Perhaps, the ones who bribe them the best...regardless of what agenda is hidden, for controlling those who are duped into electing them!
    Just shut up, do your work for low wages, pay your high taxes, pay for overpriced worthless crap, and don't question where its all going, or how they're getting there, or going to do! They control..you obey!.....and do so with programmed enthusiasm!
    .....and for God's sakes, do NOT be a free individual with free thought. Those are troublemakers.....and a threat, for sure!
    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 28 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM

    ""and for God's sakes, do NOT be a free individual with free thought. Those are troublemakers.....and a threat, for sure!""

    If your concept of individuality and free thinking gives rise to the wild flights of fancy, and ridiculous conspiracy theories, which you exhibit here, then perhaps you would be better of without them.

    If genuine freedom and free thinking were as troublesome to those in power, as you suggest, then this website would have been closed down years ago, and a lot of others too.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 28 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM

    DonT: "If your concept of individuality and free thinking gives rise to the wild flights of fancy, and ridiculous conspiracy theories, which you exhibit here, then perhaps you would be better of without them."

    Once again, Don, that nasty bug up your ass, is rearing its head. So here, take it from someone else, that you might not be so prone to spout your bias at. You might recognize it......then again, maybe not.

    What they want for you!

    Got it???

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 28 Jun 10 - 12:09 PM


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 28 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM

    DonT: "If genuine freedom and free thinking were as troublesome to those in power, as you suggest, then this website would have been closed down years ago, and a lot of others too."

    Just give it time, the way things are going!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,ibo
    Date: 28 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

    we should release 30,000 seagulls to soak up the oil


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:56 PM

    Digression, but deep-water drilling off Tanzania is hitting it big.
    Anadarko (partner with BP in Macondo) has a "high quality" gas discovery.
    Dominion Petroleum's discovery has a billion barrel potential.
    Exxon-Mobil and UK-based BG have exploration blocks.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

    News, June 28.
    BP stock up a bit (0.11%) since storm fears wane. A rig to increase recovery from the leak may be delayed because of the storm Alex, however, Adm. Allen said..

    Adm. Allen says relief well will not be at its target before mid-August. The drill is within 900 feet, but the last drilling has to be done "very slowly."

    Eugene Turner, professor of Oceanography at Louisiana State univ. and NOAA scientists say the "dead zone" will be larger this year (about the size of New Jersey) but how much is the effect of the spill is unknown.
    In an understatement, Prof, Turner said the combination of the hypoxic zone and the oil spill will not be good for local fisheries.

    Costs to BP have risen to $100 million a day; currently at $2.65 billion.

    Refinery at Toledo, Ohio, back online after boiler failure June 15.

    TransCanada Pipelines, partnering with Exxon-Mobil, have proposed building a pipeline from Alaska to Canada to the lower 48 at a cost of some $30-40 billion, says it is not discussing a merger with Denali, a rival pipeline by BP and Conoco-Phillips (proposed with a cost of $35 billion). Talks on such a merger, in the multi-billions, was reported in the Houston Chronicle. Both plan to connect with lines in Alberta (Trans-Canada).
    Steve Rinehart, a BP Alaska spokesman, refused to comment.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 28 Jun 10 - 05:34 PM

    Above reports from ADVFN Canada, www.advfn.com


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:09 PM

    ""Got it???""

    YEAH! I got it. Don't bother taking on board the opinions of experts in world affairs, economics, politics, or anything of that sort. Just ask a working class Liverpool pop star, who wrote a song about it, and also professed to be more important than Jesus.

    Yeah RIGHT!

    You prove my point so much better than I could have done.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 29 Jun 10 - 07:51 PM

    Okay......

    Try this! (click)

    GfS

    OHHH, and if you can't distinguish between the Truth coming from a 'pop star', and/or common sense, the previously posted article was written by:
    Paul Krugman joined The New York Times in 1999 as a columnist on the Op-Ed Page and continues as professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University.

    Mr. Krugman received his B.A. from Yale University in 1974 and his Ph.D. from MIT in 1977. He has taught at Yale, MIT and Stanford. At MIT he became the Ford International Professor of Economics.

    Mr. Krugman is the author or editor of 20 books and more than 200 papers in professional journals and edited volumes. His professional reputation rests largely on work in international trade and finance; he is one of the founders of the "new trade theory," a major rethinking of the theory of international trade. In recognition of that work, in 1991 the American Economic Association awarded him its John Bates Clark medal, a prize given every two years to "that economist under forty who is adjudged to have made a significant contribution to economic knowledge." Mr. Krugman's current academic research is focused on economic and currency crises.

    At the same time, Mr. Krugman has written extensively for a broader public audience. Some of his recent articles on economic issues, originally published in Foreign Affairs, Harvard Business Review, Scientific American and other journals, are reprinted in Pop Internationalism and The Accidental Theorist.

    On October 13, 2008, it was announced that Mr. Krugman would receive the Nobel Prize in Economics.

    OKAY???????


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Shanghaiceltic
    Date: 29 Jun 10 - 09:00 PM

    From the latest Private Eye issue.

    From Private Eye latest issue...

    11 People killed in accident on oil rig leased by British company BP, resulting in four presidential visits, a $1.6bn clean-up and the establishment of $20bn compensation fund in two months.

    15,000 People killed in accident at Bhopal plant owned by American company Union Carbide, resulting in 0 presidential visits, no clean-up and $470m compensation in 25 years


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 29 Jun 10 - 09:24 PM

    The Bhopal disaster occurred during the Reagan (Republican) administration.

    Make of that what you will.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 29 Jun 10 - 09:27 PM

    Members of BP's employee savings plan are bringing a class action suit against the company.
    Employees say the "Defendants knew or should have known that investment in PB Plc was- and continues to be- an imprudent investment of the ESP's (Employees Savings Plan) assets due to serious mismanagement and improper business practices that resulted in catastrophic incidents of international significance, including, among others, the BP spill in the Gulf of Mexico."
    The lawsuit, filed in federal court in Chicago, seeks class-action status; the complaint states that regulatory filings show the plan held $2.45 billion worth of London-based BP's American depository shares, or 29% of its $8.27 billion of assets, at the end of 2009.
    Bloomberg Reports.

    New York State Common Retirement Fund, at $132.6 billion assets the nation's third-largest public pension fund, is seeking "lead plaintiff" status in a class action suit brought June 22. The fund's loss is some $575 million. A Fund spokesman said "BP mislead investors about its safety procedures and its ability to respond to events like the ongoing oil spill, and we're going to hold it accountable."
    CNNMoney.com


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 29 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM

    Also the Reagan (Senile) Administration.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 29 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM

    The California Public Employees Retirement System, valued at $205.2 billion, owned and 60.1 million BP shares as of June 9.
    Clark McKinley, fund spokesman, would not say whether the Fund intended to file suit.
    money.cnn.com

    No comment has been made by the California State Teachers Retirement System, the second largest public pension fund after the California Public Employees Retirement System.

    Neither fund will be severely affected because they are so large.

    The Ontario Teachers Pension Fund ($96.4 billion in assets). Approximately 33% of assets are non-Canadian, but no BP stock as of Dec. 2009.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 30 Jun 10 - 04:03 AM

    Shanghaiceltic,   Wow! great post. Thank you!..and everyone else who added to it!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 30 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM

    BP has just been fined $5.2 million for submitting "false, inaccurate and misleading reports on energy production on Southern Ute Tribal Lands in SW Colorado, the Department of Interior said.
    Tribal auditors and the Management Bureau found that BP reported "incorrect royalty rates and prices for royalty putposes" and incorrectly reported well production on leases, the Interior Department said, leading Ocean Energy Management bureau's director, Michael Bromwich, to conclude that "BP's continued submission of erroneous reports was knowing or willful."
    The errors were reported to BP, but they were not corrected.
    CNN News, June 30, 2010.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/30/us.bp.fined/index.html?iref=allsearch


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 30 Jun 10 - 11:01 PM

    BP is trying to shut down an internal safety watchdog agency it set up under congressional pressure four years ago following the Texas refinery explosion and the Alaska spill.
    BP's program of secret dealings won't stand the light of day.
    CNN News, June 30, 2010.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 30 Jun 10 - 11:16 PM

    Is it because they're British, do you think, that they're such scofflaws?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 01 Jul 10 - 01:19 AM

    guffaw


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 01 Jul 10 - 03:54 AM

    Cool info, Q. You just keep coming up with little gems. Instead of focusing in on one or the other, the hot ticket would be to find the 'point of corruption', of the two, by the two, and 'for' the two..which may, of course, never come out...readily...but THAT is where the 'reform regulations' need to come.....along with criminal indictments!~ Actually, we already have laws in place, that somehow, either got ignored, broken, or 'legislated out a loophole', for somebody....under the guise of 'a better idea', complete with host of 'regulatory fees, and fines'.

    Once again, as more truth comes out, you will see what I've been an ogre, for so long about...corruption, both sides, so much, that they're the same!....and not representing the well being, or will of WE...the nation!

    They've just about drained us dry!
    Don't give up your spirit...it's not theirs!

    Regards,
    GfS


    Hell, there's a song in there somewhere!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 01 Jul 10 - 01:25 PM

    Punitive Damages are tax-deductable.

    A bill is up in Congress to change this.
    See New York Times today online, July 1, 2010. "Damages Control, *Polsky and Markel.
    "When corporations like Exxon, State Farm and Phillip Morris lose tort cases, juries occasionally award, in addition to compensation for the plaintiff's injuries, extensive punitive damages.
    "But jurors are often unaware that companies are able to deduct those punitive damages in calculating their federal income taxes, saving them millions of dollars and undermining the original goal of the damages: to punish reprehensible corporate behavior."
    Bp stands to take advantage if such damages are awarded.
    "When a settlement is reached....... before a trial.....they aren't required to specify which parts of the settlement are punitive and which are compensatory;....... allows defendants to disguise the amounts that they would have paid as punitive damages as additional compensatory damages."
    "And because the measure maintains the deductable status of compensatory damages, nearly all punitive damages will remain, as a practical, matter, deductible."
    * Law professors at North Carolina and Florida State, resp.


    Welcome to the land of OZ!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 02 Jul 10 - 11:11 AM

    Latest that I've gotten: They are boring, not just into the 'pocket' but into the actual shaft to relieve pressure, by diverting the main flow, to other new shafts. To me, all I can say is, all the more power to them! Hope it is successful!
       Next, they have noted that the ocean floor has risen a bit there, and I don't have the measurements, of how much. With that is the concerns about the pocket this will leave,(as posted before), and/or concern if a collapse, when it is over, would cause a tsunami. Don't laugh, they were discussing it on the radio....so try...try real hard, to just grit your teeth, and not shoot the messenger!
       
       Next, they have hit MASSIVE pockets of methane, where the crew on the rigs, all had to stop drilling, and put on protective gear. They are having to be extra pre-cautious, because methane is HIGHLY flammable, and they're saying it was the cause, of the first drilling rig's blast,..(at least, that's what their saying).
       Also, the report, on the radio, confirms another earlier report, which I posted, (and was poo-pooed about), that the pressures were 'upwards of 100,000 psi'(exact quote). My earlier posted report was 20 to 70 thousand, if you recall.

        Finally, the reports of widespread ill effects of the toxic gasses are coming in, nausea, headaches, dizziness, etc, etc.

    So, there you have it. The latest reports coming in. As per aforementioned,as time went on, and 'new revised numbers' would be coming in, that they would confirm what I posted originally. My apprehension is, I wonder if my original numbers have gotten worse....as time has gone by!

    Peace and Best Wishes,
    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 02 Jul 10 - 11:43 AM

    "The latest reports coming in":

    IMO, There's lots of those reports, indeed. The challenge is to separate the logical stuff from the less logical and the nonsense. It is difficult because some parts are unknown, the knowledgeable folks are limited in their comments, controlled by the operation, or drowned out by the massive number of "so called, experts who often tend to sensationalize (no need for that, considering the real stuff).


    There are no shortage of reports, opinions, PR speculation, blogs, folks wanting to be seen as right (or, seeking public attention) or just plain nonsense on this issue. This is likely because it is a major, high profile issue (especially in the USA, a media center), there is plenty of public and media interest and concern, and there has been attempts to control information out and to skew public attitudes. This recipe makes it ripe for conspiracy theories and gives credibility those with information or opinions who to profess to be experts.

    Just my opinion, of course.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 02 Jul 10 - 03:09 PM

    A lot of exaggerated nonsense in blogs on the raddio.
    Seismicity is used to find likely oil and gas traps in the subsurface. "Highs" or blockages to trap hydrocarbons in porous sediments are two anomalies sought by petroleum explorationists, and become prospects.
    The hydrocarbons encountered vary, depending on the thermal history.
    The hyrdocarbons in sediments undergo a natural 'cracking' depending on the heat and pressure on the formation. Very heavy hydrocarbon molecules are separated, lighter fluids and gases are generated that can be extracted through the well bore. If thermal effects are very strong, the result is more gas and less or no liquid hydrocarbons.
    The formation being explored at the Macondo well has a strong gas element, but liquid hydrocarbons are also present; contributing to a desirable crude. Gases have become an important contributor to our energy needs.
    Of course if the formation is breached, the gas pressure will force both liquid and gaseous materials to the surface, usually confined and prepared for production.
    Unfortunately, mistakes and unpreparedness led to the gusher at Macondo being uncontrolable.

    Nonsense about eventual collapse and tsunami belongs in children's science fiction comics. Of course the disaster is catastrophic enough without such laughable speculation.

    Hydrocarbon gases normally are a mixture of the lightest hydrocarbons, methane to ethane and etc.; there is nothing unusual about that. In some regions subjected to stronger thermal effects, the gases approach the very light end, methane.
    Along with the hydrocarbon gases, many crudes contain sulfurous gases and compounds. There is a good market for sulfur at present, but I remember seeing large piles of extracted sulfur near some refineries.
    All of these gases are toxic, the degree depending on the type and concentration. Care must be taken in handling them. Crude oil itself is not the friendliest of substances.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 03 Jul 10 - 12:55 AM

    I guess I could say, "I know all that"...but I also said I'd post anything I heard, that was related. The Tsunami thing was a new one on me, however, they were talking about IF there was a collapse. So far, when I've posted stuff about that, someone posts the usual reply, of calling it nonsense......but then, on this matter, the stuff I've posted HAS been accurate...just ahead of what was reported on the regular 'news'(?)

    I did, on the original post(or was it the second one, mention how they normally pump water or mud back into where they pump offshore, so when they mentioned the other part, I thought it may be of interest...and I'm only posting what I've heard, as aforementioned.

    Hey, everyone have a good one!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:41 PM

    GFS,

    Here are some links to keep your inquiring mind busy...at the end ot the post.

    They are theories of offbeat scientist Thomas "Tommy" Gold, who died in 2004? He was proven right on a lot of his theories that scientists (of the time) did not accept. He suggested that the moon's surface was covered with a fine rock powder...proven to be true. He stated that the ear (not the brain) was capable of resonating and discriminating between different musical notes, again proven years later. Another was that pulsars are neutron stars emitting radio waves as they spin....again proven years later.

    One unconventional theory, never to catch on, was that oil and natural gas are formed not from decaying organic matter, as most scientists believe, but from geologic processes and continually well up to the surface from deep underground.

    "The presence of organic molecules in all petroleum deposits has long been taken as evidence for the biological origin of petroleum. Gold argued instead in his 1999 book "The Deep Hot Biosphere" that the organic molecules come from subterranean microbes that feed on petroleum deep in the Earth's crust. Gold's vision of a supply of oil and gas that is essentially inexhaustible drew intense criticism from petroleum geologists".

    http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/99/1.28.99/Gold-book.html

    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread38279/pg1


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 03 Jul 10 - 09:15 PM

    Remains of microorganisms (mostly; some other plant materials) and geochemical study of the range of organic compounds preserved in association with petroleum deposits have proven that the source is preserved organic materials transformed by heat and pressure of burial under the weight of sediments.

    Geochemistry has proven to be of great value in determining the relationship of hydrocarbon deposits to source beds, due to the pioneering work of W. G. Meinschein, Huang, Staplin and others and, of practical value to petroleum explorationists, the identification and mapping of source-reservoir relationships which has contributed to important discoveries of reserves.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 04 Jul 10 - 04:10 AM

    I know TH-A-A-A-T!!! (wink)

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 04 Jul 10 - 08:52 PM

    "Scientists have found that ethane and heavier hydrocarbons can be synthesized under the pressure-temperature conditions of the upper mantle —the layer of Earth under the crust and on top of the core".


    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090726150843.htm


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 04 Jul 10 - 10:56 PM

    Hydrocarbons can be formed in other ways- some noted in meteorites (I published long ago on one chondrite that may have organic remains and which contains organic compounds, but there is much better, more recent analysis by geochemists), and inferred from scans of planets- but the abundant hydrocarbons we find in buried sediments are derived from organic precursors, remains of which are common in oils that have not undergone much thermal heat and/or pressure, and which have the same geochemical fingerprints.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ed T
    Date: 04 Jul 10 - 11:13 PM

    An interesting, (though long) blog/perspective on oil from 2005 (old, but still interesting):
    http://mises.org/daily/1717


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: dick greenhaus
    Date: 06 Jul 10 - 06:38 PM

    Isn't it comforting to realize that BP (through its affiliates AMOCO and ARCO) can now legally spend as much money as they wish in getting freindly US politicians elected? Ahh....free speech.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 15 Jul 10 - 04:23 AM

    "14 Jul 2010: President of the Organisation for International Investment tells UK firms to beware anti-British rhetoric in forthcoming US mid-term elections in the wake of the BP oil spill"


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jul/14/british-companies-reputation-threat-us


    I told you so.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:41 PM

    Many of us hope that BP will be bought out by companies that pay more attention to government regulations and to honest business practices.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 15 Jul 10 - 03:11 PM

    ""Many of us hope that BP will be bought out by companies that pay more attention to government regulations and to honest business practices.""

    American companies of course!

    And what you'll get is companies who are better at hiding their disregard for regulations which interfere with making profit. Only next time, those companies (Transocean, Halliburton, etc.) won't be able to hide behind a foreign competitor, and avoid taking any responsibility for their own actions.

    I hold no brief for BP in all this, but they weren't alone, and only they are taking the flak for what happened. And you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe that US companies are any more likely to be trustworthy. Next time, and there will be a next time, you'll have nobody to blame but your own guys.

    Still, as I said earlier, it looks as though you all are going to be rid of the biggest competitor of US big oil.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST
    Date: 15 Jul 10 - 04:23 PM

    Post verified as being from GfS - but GfS, you should put your name in the "from" box. -Joe Offer-
    Don: "Still, as I said earlier, it looks as though you all are going to be rid of the biggest competitor of US big oil."

    What does being a 'U.S.' company have to do with it???? The multinational conglomerates don't give a damn about the U.S., unless it wants to rent their military. Neither do the 'globalists', nor the socialists....its all one big happy family!

    Sooner or later a light will go on...........

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Wesley S
    Date: 15 Jul 10 - 04:37 PM

    By the way. CNN is reporting that the leak in the Gulf has finally been capped. Let's hope it holds this time.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 15 Jul 10 - 09:30 PM

    Most Americans don't even think about British companies or would recognize them if asked. Most would respond "Simon Cowell" if asked about the British or maybe the GEICO gecko. Strange as it may seem to you, most Americans don't think about Britain at all.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 15 Jul 10 - 10:05 PM

    Had to go to Wiki to find out who Simon Cowell was (He is a Britisher, it seems). I have heard of Idol but never watched it.

    Geico is owned by Berkshire Hathaway, Warren Buffett's company, about as American as one can get. I thought the accent was pure gecko.

    True, never thought about British companies before BP's catastrophe, but now I do. BP's atrocious example has hurt UK business reputations (Now I won't buy that Lotus!).


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Alice
    Date: 15 Jul 10 - 11:24 PM

    The gecko accent is a joke used in their recent ad:
    "British... I thought you were Australian!"


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 16 Jul 10 - 12:19 AM

    I'm sorry, Richard, but it was a BP executive who told the drilling crew that the drilling was taking too long and costing too much, and ordered them to speed up the drilling. When the crew objected, saying that it would not be safe to do so, he insisted, and threatened to fire them and bring in another crew unless they followed his orders. So they obeyed his orders and what they feared might happen did!

    Reported by a man who was there, and damn near died when the rig blew up.

    That's what happened.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 16 Jul 10 - 12:24 AM

    Get off your high horse, Richard. Bigotry has nothing to do with it.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 16 Jul 10 - 03:33 AM

    Well, it looks as if BP have capped it

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10657088

    And in comparison with all the attacks on BRITISH Petroleum for screwing it up do I hear anyone praising BRITISH expertise in getting the cap working?

    All President Obama says is that it is "a positive sign".


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Arthur_itus
    Date: 16 Jul 10 - 05:13 AM

    Agreed Richard

    Obama is an A******e
    He hasn't got the grace to show any encouragement to BP. That is IMHO, not the way most Americans behave. They are normally very helpful and encouraging (even if it is a disaster).


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 16 Jul 10 - 06:48 AM

    I'm sorry, Richard, but it was a BP executive who told the drilling crew that the drilling was taking too long and costing too much, and ordered them to speed up the drilling.

    What relevance this has to what happened escapes me. IIRC the well was being temporarliy capped to let the drilling rig move off so that a production manifold could be put in place. If that was the case then the drilling would have been completed days before, therefore how fast the hole was drilled doesn't enter into it.

    What failed was the cement job to cap the well (Halliburton) and the BOP (Cameron/Transocean)


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 16 Jul 10 - 07:33 AM

    ...BRITISH expertise in getting the cap working?

    Ya mean the one that should have worked months ago? Or the one that they don't know is going to continue to work as yet?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 16 Jul 10 - 08:32 AM

    When the crew objected, saying that it would not be safe to do so, he insisted, and threatened to fire them and bring in another crew unless they followed his orders. So they obeyed his orders and what they feared might happen did!

    So a BP executive (whatever is supposed to be meant by that - I have worked offshore on many rigs and never seen any Oil Company Executives onboard them) threatenned to fire Transocean employees? How was he going to do that? Not really a logical step even if the executive could fire the employees of another company, I mean lets face it if his complaint was the time they were taking, his threat to fire them would mean halting operations, casting round to find another crew, get them out there and up to speed in operating an unfamiliar rig, that is an enormous amount of time simply wasted, sorry not a very credible threat.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 16 Jul 10 - 10:20 AM

    I'm reminded of the late unlamented Robert Maxwell who paid off a person he found smoking on company premises - only to have the person reveal that he worked for someone else, pocket the money, and walk!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 16 Jul 10 - 05:42 PM

    Sorry, guys, but for some years now, BP has had a considerably less than admirable safety record.

    CLICKY #1.

    And Teribus, just because you haven't had the experience doesn't mean that it didn't happen on the Deepwater Horizon rig.

    So both of you—Teribus and Richard—read the story and watch these two videos and inform yourselves. Sorry about the commercials, but the interviews with Mike Williams and the others are very informative and quite revealing.

    CLICKY #2.

    (Williams didn't say "BP executive." He said, "BP manager" and "BP company man.").

    It occurs to me that, considering a couple of mishaps that had taken place earlier with the drilling, there is a certain touch of the song "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy" about this oil blowout.

    The question, "Who was ultimately in charge?" BP.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 16 Jul 10 - 06:23 PM

    Who fabricated the containment caps? Who designed them? Just temporary measures, but this hasn't been mentioned in the press or at least I haven't found it.


    Going to be years before the people who depend on the Gulf for their livlihood get back to normal. Similarly much wildlife.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 18 Jul 10 - 09:00 PM

    Associated Press- A federal official said Sunday that scientists are concerned about a seep and possible methane seen near BP's busted well.
    The official said BP is not complying with the government's demand for more monitoring.
    An announcement is expected tomorrow.

    The Huffington Post reports that if Adm. Allen "doesn't get the response he wants, the testing could stop."
    "Gulf Oil Seep: Methane, Leak Suspected near BP's Blown Out Oil Well."
    www.huffingtonpost.com


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Bill D
    Date: 18 Jul 10 - 09:28 PM

    "...anyone praising BRITISH expertise in getting the cap working?"

    Several reports say they used off-the-shelf technology and equipment that could have been used weeks ago.

    Got an hour, Richard Bridge? Or even 30-40 minutes? (that will get you thru all but the Q&A part.)

    Watch this video on how deep water wells are done- and differences between how Shell & BP do it...then tell me about 'expertise'.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 18 Jul 10 - 10:00 PM

    Thanks for linking the Shell-BP comparison video- It is well-presented. As I remarked in this or the other thread, it is unusual for engineers of a major to denigrate the work of another major and sometime partner.

    There is now worry that the oil is not contained, that there is gas coming up from below. An announcement expected Monday.

    Somehow BP reminds me of the drunken guest who barffed on the carpet and said, "Oh, well, it isn't my carpet." The BP errors will take years to correct.

    Shore rock around Prince William Sound still hides leaked oil, and organisms important for the basal food chain are scarce. Small seabirds are still uncommon, and the herring harvest has been lost.
    Millions of people are affected by the situation in the Gulf.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Richard Bridge
    Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:37 AM

    The point is this.

    Something goes wrong - and the USAians say "BRITISH Petroleum".

    Something goes right, and they say "Oh, someone else did that".

    I suspect that what Shell are doing is trying to drive BP's share price down to try to get a cheap takeover possibility.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: catspaw49
    Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:13 AM

    Your shirt stuffing is soggy and drooping Richard. Why do I suspect that if the name was French Petroleum you'd be all over them like white on rice?


    Spaw


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:33 PM

    Yes, Richard, most Americans would like to see BP sliced and diced; taken over by one or several companies.

    Apache has backed away from bidding for the Alaskan segment. A difficulty is that under American law, they would also become for some of BP's liabilities, which may reach $100 billion.

    Unfortunately only a fraction of this amount will ever be paid.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 Jul 10 - 02:06 PM

    become liable....


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Donuel
    Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:52 PM

    I was asked not to divulge any of these rumored facts last month so not to jeopardize the source or agency involved:


    The area of the deep horizon site has a fifteen mile radius of armed security which is ordered to repel any unauthorized water or air craft from any investigation by BP orders enforcable by the US Coast Guard. The rumor was that six miles from the broken riser is a large ocean floor rift which is pouring out oil and methane gas at pressures up to 4,000 psi.

    Today there are reports tht a "seep of oil from the ocean floor" exists a couple miles from the drilling site.

    The drilling pipes that may have burst are only 7 inches diameter at the bottom end and are gradually expanded to pipes well over a foot wide that surround the drilling pipe. When the numerous methane kicks (explosions) burst the blow out preventers prior to the rig exploding and sinking, it is easy to assume that the methane bursts had also burst the pipes beneath the sea.

    The relief drilling will be of no use unless it contacts pipe with no breaks beneath the intersection.

    This means that the success of the relief wells that are now in progress is very unlikely.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 19 Jul 10 - 04:31 PM

    Richard, as an American, I can say that, for quite some time, BP had a pretty good reputation in this country. The general attitude was, if anything, a sort of reverse bigotry. "They must be pretty good. It's a British company." This, as contrasted with companies such as Exxon, with the Prince William Sound spill, and a number of other oil companies who had pretty well established that they were not very well "house trained."

    But within recent years, BP's shoddy safety record, due mainly to their cost-cutting and safety short-cuts, has—quite understandably and quite rightly—undercut their previously good reputation.

    To try to claim that Americans are bigoted against BP simply because it is a British oil company is disingenuous. Consistent with their recent abysmal safety record and an almost predictable result of their recent company policies, BP fouled up.

    To claim that, merely because it is a British-based company, holding BP responsible for their foul-up is "bigotry" is sheer nonsense. Among other things, no one is holding the British people responsible for this.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Bill D
    Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:03 PM

    "I suspect that what Shell are doing..."

    What Shell IS doing.... a company is an entity over here, just as a sports team is....and takes the singular.

    But that aside, Richard....did you bother to watch the video? It is as fair and neutral as possible. Shell is just pointing out that there ARE serious differences between good and bad techniques of well safety.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:42 PM

    Digression-
    That plural bothers some Brits as well, although it is required in BBC broadcasts, etc. And not just hupper class usage.

    The Army are, Manchester are, BP are, etc.
    Not heard in Canada. Used in Australia?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 19 Jul 10 - 11:58 PM

    To claim that, merely because it is a British-based company, holding BP responsible for their foul-up is "bigotry" is sheer nonsense. Among other things, no one is holding the British people responsible for this.

    Stop being reasonable. That's clearly not wanted here.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mandotim
    Date: 20 Jul 10 - 04:45 AM

    The BP disaster is just revenge for the dietary pollution caused by MacDonalds. Probably similar amounts of oils involved too.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 20 Jul 10 - 09:33 PM

    ""To try to claim that Americans are bigoted against BP simply because it is a British oil company is disingenuous. Consistent with their recent abysmal safety record and an almost predictable result of their recent company policies, BP fouled up.

    To claim that, merely because it is a British-based company, holding BP responsible for their foul-up is "bigotry" is sheer nonsense. Among other things, no one is holding the British people responsible for this.
    ""

    I'll swallow that on the day that some American authority says that Transocean, and Halliburton, and others responsible for associated hardware, bear some responsibility.

    From all that I'm hearing they have been allowed to head for the hills unopposed, while the whole blame is loaded on the British Company.

    I am well aware just where the buck stops, but there should, nonetheless, be action taken against those lower down the chain of command, particularly those who were operating the rig when the fire occurred. Such action is conspicuously absent.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 20 Jul 10 - 09:46 PM

    Robert Kaluza, apparently the head BP man on the rig, refuses to testify, invoking the Fifth Amendment.
    Further actions may be and should be taken against him and others if they refuse to testify for Congressional Committees.
    Rumors are he was the one who made the decision on the mud.

    An article in the Los Angeles Times July 19, but Kaluza had already announced his stand in April.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Teribus
    Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:30 AM

    Your oil seepage apparently has got bugger all to do with the well now they say. Why do Americans (Media and Senate) run around like headless chickens when faced with any crisis? Why is the default position always the blame game instead of dealing with the matter in hand? (9/11 & Katrina being two previous prime examples). Moratorium on deep sea drilling? fair enough if you lot used less and paid more for it. It happens to be a different way of stating to the world - We'll use up your oil first

    While BP is responsible the blame attaches to Haliburton; Transocean; Cameron and the US Regulators from what I can see.

    None of it will ever be paid Q? Don't you believe it, that stated on another British trait - We pay our bills.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:48 AM

    As you can see, and as Donuel, and Don Firth has posted, more and more is coming out, about pressures, methane, and more seepage, as I've posted originally. I haven't been on here much, since, because I figured (and correctly so) that time would prove my earlier reports to be accurate.

    What I've heard now, as of recent, is there is a sick game being played out, between the administration, and BP in regards to the cap. The cap was hurriedly put in place, because after it was 'put on', and poorly so, the responsibility now shifts over to the government, as to the responsibility and liability..even if it fails, and away from BP...so any further damages will be at our cost..not BP'S. The government is trying to allow it on,long enough to appear as if there is some success(somewhere), but is making noises about wanting it removed, for some work on it...which might not have a good outcome...and for that call, they don't want to appear responsible.

    Yes folks, you heard it here!..oh, and by the way.....its accurate.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 21 Jul 10 - 04:04 PM

    They dumped Tony Hayward- he will be gone in a few weeks.

    It will be impossible for BP to ever pay all the claims, which will total more that the company is worth.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Greg F.
    Date: 21 Jul 10 - 05:01 PM

    What's Tony's severance package, on top of his last years' 45 Million annual salary?

    My heart goes out to him.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Bill D
    Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:47 PM

    "What's Tony's severance package..."

    He...um... "gets his life back"


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:32 PM

    Tony Boy's pay last year was roughly $1 million, plus c. $1 million bonus.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 22 Jul 10 - 12:33 AM

    Just for you!!!

    Black Water


    Enjoy!

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 22 Jul 10 - 01:06 PM

    I don't find anything remotely humorous about the Gulf catastrophe.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:00 PM

    A bit of historical perspective:

    On 18 March, 1967 the "Torrey Canyon" struck Pollard's Rock in the Seven Stones reef between the Scilly Isles and Land's End, England. She was the first of the big supertankers, carrying a cargo of 120,000 tons of oil.

    31,000,000 gallons of oil leaked from the ship and spread over the sea and up the English Channel, killing most of the marine life it touched along the whole of the south coast of Britain and the Normandy shores of France, blighting the region for many years thereafter.

    Because nobody had planned for this, all sorts of emergency measures were attempted, many of which made matters worse; lots of chemical dispersants were eventually sprayed onto the oil slicks, but these were more lethal for life than the original oil.

    About the ship:
    1.   The ship was built in the United States in 1959 and was owned by Union Oil, an American company.
    2.   It was registered in Liberia
    3.   It was manned by an Italian crew
    4.   It had been chartered from the American oil company by—    BP.
    The governments of both England and France brought suit against Union Oil, the American company, because they were the owners of the Torrey Canyon—despite the fact that the ship had been chartered to BP and was manned by an Italian crew, and at the time of the disaster, Union Oil had no control over the running of the ship!!

    In the meantime, because the ship was registered in Liberia, a Liberian Board of Inquiry investigated the incident and found the captain of the Torrey Canyon, Capt. Pastrengo Rugiati of Genoa, Italy, guilty of "a high degree of negligence."

    This determination of responsibility was ignored. And Union Oil was blamed for the disaster.

    So—

    In the Gulf oil disaster, there were indeed subcontractors working for BP, but it was a BP manager who issued the order to speed up the drilling. The crew of the Deepwater Horizon objected, saying that it would be dangerous to do so. The BP manager insisted, implying that if they didn't follow instructions, they would be fired and another drilling crew hired. In fact, BP managers interfered with safe and established drilling procedures on several occasions, on the basis that it was going too slow and costing too much.

    People ought to learn the facts before they start popping off about who's responsible for what, and accusing others of bigotry when they expect compensation from the ones who really are responsible, instead of trying to shift blame to those who had no control over what was going on at the time of the disaster.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Rev. Goose 'Goof' Gander (ret.)
    Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:26 PM

    Oh, Don, you're such a bigot!


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 22 Jul 10 - 06:42 PM

    Oh, yeah. Have the poor taste to point out whose face the egg is really on and you're a bigot for sure. . . .

    (I don't recognize your name, but your voice sounds kinda familiar.)

    Don Firth)


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 22 Jul 10 - 08:26 PM

    Storm Bonnie on the way- hope it changes direction. The well will be capped and closed, but drilling of relief wells will cease, and ships come to shore for 10-14 days.
    Oil in the Gulf could be blown onshore.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 02:48 AM

    Q; "I don't find anything remotely humorous about the Gulf catastrophe."

    Neither do I. Ridicule dishonors, more than dishonor itself!

    The satire is toward both BP and the corruption in our government.

    GfS


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 07:41 AM

    ""People ought to learn the facts before they start popping off about who's responsible for what, and accusing others of bigotry when they expect compensation from the ones who really are responsible, instead of trying to shift blame to those who had no control over what was going on at the time of the disaster.""

    So what you want then, is revenge for the time when the boot was on the other foot?

    Union oil was wrongly blamed for one disaster, so BP must be blamed for this one?

    The contractors got away with it before, so the same must happen now?

    Ninety percent of the time I agree with your perspectives, which is why I am so disappointed to find that you believe two wrongs DO make a right.

    BP must of course shoulder the responsibility for poor safety policy, but, as has been pointed out, the drilling was over, and Transocean were operating the rig during the changeover to a pumping rig.

    Transocean are being shielded from the proper consequences, as are the makers and installers of the BOP.

    This is wrong!...Just as wrong as the Torrey Canyon decision.

    But hey, if payback is all that's important, go for it!

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Vic
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 08:39 AM

    It's simply a waste of time talking to Keith A. He defends the murderous British army and their football thugs in uniform who walked the streets of the North of Ireland shooting children with plastic bullets and murdering people in Derry attending a Civil Rights march.

    Keith has the bit between his teeth against the Irish due to an incident in Manchester city centre in the early 90's. A young tart who was living with him went into the city that day shopping. She wasn't anywhere near the two operational sites, but came back to T.A. Keith crying. So this is all down to the fact he was slipping this girl a length on the quiet and she was upset.

    He is a very sad example of an older man chasing young skirt.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST,Rev. Goose 'Goof' Gander (ret.)
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 12:32 PM

    Don Firth, I'm afraid you are suffering from irony deficiency today.

    Let me speak as clearly and simply as I possibly can: I agree with your post.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 02:51 PM

    Don T., most of the time I agree with the viewpoints you express. But in this case, you are misinterpreting—distorting—what I said. I am not advocating anything like revenge for the Torrey Canyon incident. To claim that this is what I am saying is disingenuous, and it's unworthy of you.

    I am pointing up the predilection many people, particularly companies, have to blame someone else so they can disavow their obvious responsibility when it is they who have screwed up.

    The cause of the Torrey Canyon oil spill was an incompetent captain. Yet both the British and the French governments, sued Union Oil, which had no control over, hence no responsibility for, the shipwreck. Why? Because that's where the money was!!!

    The Gulf oil spill is an entirely different situation. You, Richard Bridge, and a few others seem to want to blame anybody but BP for causing the disaster. True, there were subcontractors, whom you want to blame, when it was BP management who were complaining that the drilling was taking too long and costing too much money, so they order the drilling crew to speed things up. When the drilling crew objected, saying it was not safe to do so, the BP paper-pushing desk jockeys threatened to replace them.

    In the light of this, I would say that if the subcontractor bears any responsibility, it is in that they should have refused and threatened to quit.

    No revenge, Don T. Put the responsibility where it really belongs.

    I resent your attempt to warp what I have said.

    Don Firth

    P. S. And thank you, Rev. Goose.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 06:43 PM

    ""True, there were subcontractors, whom you want to blame, when it was BP management who were complaining that the drilling was taking too long and costing too much money, so they order the drilling crew to speed things up. When the drilling crew objected, saying it was not safe to do so, the BP paper-pushing desk jockeys threatened to replace them.""

    Like most of the others on this thread, you are ignoring the fact that drilling was over!

    Please explain the relevance of BP's insistence on faster drilling, when, after drilling had finished and the drill been removed, the blowout preventer (Not made or installed by BP) failed, and the rig which was under the control of Transocean at that point, blew up.

    I have repeatedly said that BP bear ultimate responsibility, but, Transocean and Halliburton should not be allowed to walk away Scot free.

    The situation is analogous with the Torrey Canyon affair, in that in both cases, those dirctly involved walked away untouched, while the buck stops with the major contractor who made the mistake of employing them.

    BP immediately announced that they would foot the total bill, but your Media had to put the boot in out of their usual motive. "Screw the truth, sell copy"

    Those same vultures will be nowhere in sight when the leak is stopped, and BP is spending the next ten years working to repair the harm.

    After all, GOOD news sells no papers.

    Don T.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 07:01 PM

    After all, GOOD news sells no papers.

    What kind of good news is in this? Especially in the early days when all the things you mention happened?


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 09:05 PM

    If what is being testified now is true, there is plenty of blame to go around.

    "The rig's history of mechanical errors was documented in a confidential audit conducted by BP seven months before the explosion and reviewed by The New York Times. According to the September 2009 document, four BP officials discovered that Transocean, the rig's owner, had left 390 repairs undone, including many that were "high priority," and would require a total of more than 3,500 hours of labor. It is unclear how many of the problems remained by the day of the catastrophe.

    "The 60-page audit found that previously reported errors had been ignored by Transocean. "Consequently, a number of the recommendations that Transocean had indicated as closed out had either deteriorated again or not been suitably addressed in the first place," investigators wrote.

    "In a statement, BP said it had expected Transocean to take the audit seriously. "The goal is to have the contractor address all safety critical items in a prompt manner," the statement said. "As we have previously said, the Deepwater Horizon tragedy had multiple potential causes, including equipment failure."


    Lots More


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don Firth
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 09:12 PM

    Don T., I think you have the sequence of events mixed up.

    I have an acquaintance who has worked on such oil rigs and is following this with both great interest and much expertise. I'll check with him and be back in a day or two.

    In the meantime, Attorney General Eric Holder is naming ,all three, BP, Transocean (owner of the Deepwater Horizon), and Haliburton, as liable in the Gulf oil spill.

    That works for me.

    Don Firth


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Q (Frank Staplin)
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 09:44 PM

    Previous reports in the NY Times detailed BP's mistakes. And as noted before, Robert Kaluza, BP's top man on the rig, has invoked the Fifth Amendment and so far refused to testify.

    The forthcoming Criminal investigation by Congress will show, as Ebbie notes, that there will be blame to go around. Certainly Transoceans own reports are very damaging to their image.

    Don T., it would help if you got the timeline straight. From the selection of light-weight drill pipe to the handling of the drilling mud to the failure to properly test the BOP on the rig (not done fully since 2000), etc. this well, as one Transocean employee had told his wife, was the well from Hell. He was killed in the explosion.

    And yes, the regulatory agency was derelict in its duty and the head was fired. We can hope that the reorganized agency will work.

    I expect the accumulation of reports and subsequent hearings to go on for a long time.

    Loss of tourist dollars over the next three years is now estimated at $23 billion alone, more than BP is trying to raise to pay damages.
    According to a new study launched by the U. S. Travel Assn. and facilitated by Oxford Economics "the region is on the precipice of unimaginable tourism losses and financial ruin.
    July 23, 2010, "Gulf Girds for $22.7 Billion Tourism loss..." Glenn Haussman.
    http://www.hotelinteractive.com/article.aspx?articleid=17659


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: GUEST, heric
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 10:34 PM

    Dang, George W should have gone in and finished the job.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: mousethief
    Date: 23 Jul 10 - 10:43 PM

    Q: And yes, the regulatory agency was derelict in its duty and the head was fired. We can hope that the reorganized agency will work.

    Not if the Republicans get back in office and quietly return to "business as normal" à la 2007.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: dick greenhaus
    Date: 24 Jul 10 - 11:46 AM

    Well, BP should be attacked for hiring Halliburton, if nothing else.


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    Subject: RE: BS: US bigots attack British Company (oil spill)
    From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
    Date: 24 Jul 10 - 03:57 PM

    ""What kind of good news is in this? Especially in the early days when all the things you mention happened?""

    If I have to explain my posts sentence by bloody sentence it ain't worth the effort, but just for you,.....

    The good news of BP remaining involved in repairing the damage, as they intend, will somehow escape the attention of your wonderfully unbiased Media, because there is no monetary gain from reporting anything positive.

    So, from the moment the well is finally killed, and there is no more mileage in further denigration of BP, and absolution of Transocean and Halliburton, said Media will cease to show the slightest interest in BP's efforts to ensure the damage is mitigated.

    I make this prediction with absolute confidence. If you want to know what BP does to that end, you will certainly have to look at the British Media for the information.

    Don T.


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    Subjec