Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:53 AM

well i am afraid it is the other way about lord franklin is sung to the tune the croppy boy,
who or who is not a good singer is debatable.
in my opinion,one of the best revival singers who was streets ahead of most of his contemporaries as a SINGER, was Tony Rose. singing is not just about having a good voice

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 13 May 20 - 07:30 PM

I'm working (slowly) on reproducing CD-rs of the Red Duster show "North West Passage - The Fate of Franklin and His Gallant Crew" which Ron Baxter and I devised and performed for Fylde Folk Festival, 1998.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 20 - 03:05 AM

Traditional singer, Jessie McDonald (MacColl's The Vintner) once told the story of a relative who was a crewman on a later expedition to the area where Franklin's ship was stranded and how that ship also became iced in
The only reason they survived was another crewman whose grandfather had sailed with Franklin, remembered family stories of Franklin's men burying caches of food during their attempts to find a way out of their predicament
The second lot managed to find some of the food which had been preserved by the ice
This story was recorded by Scots researcher, Ruaridh Greig
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 May 20 - 03:26 AM

A medal that has been on display in Orkney's Stromness Museum for years has been identified as one awarded posthumously to Sir John Franklin.

Military historian and medal collector Hiram Dunn spotted the medal on a visit to Stromness. But when the museum told him it had been donated by Rosalind Rawnsely, he realised there could be a direct family link to Sir John Franklin. He said, "nobody ever knew where Franklin's Arctic Medal was".

Jeremy Mitchell from the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich said it was appropriate that Franklin's medal had ended up in Orkney. "People forget that Stromness was (Franklin)'s last landfall, and the expedition spent three days here before disappearing off to the Arctic."

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 14 May 20 - 05:06 AM

Given that the only sailors to survive the Franklin expedition were those sent home early from ports like Stromness because of sickness, I would suggest that stories about food caches should be taken with a large pinch of salt. If subsequent search parties did find 'caches' of tinned food -and that was what the Franklin expedition carried - then they must have been tins that had been jettisoned in an effort to lighten the loads the crew were carrying and hauling. As far as I am aware, the reports of the various search expeditions make no mention of food caches on the known route south along King William Island. What was found were traces of cooked human flesh in abandoned cooking pots along with very obviously clean scraped and cut bones.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 20 - 06:13 AM

"I would suggest that stories about food caches should be taken with a large pinch of salt."
I don't know the rights and wrongs of all this but I do know that taking the word of past generations "with a pinch of salt" has lost us a geat deal of information
Sorry, I'm not in the habit of dismissing the reminiscences of a 94 year old lady or her forbear sailor and descendant researcher out of hand
If they all believed it I felt it worthwhile to pass on - make of it as you will
Jim

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Mossback
Date: 14 May 20 - 09:13 AM

There were of course earlier Franklin expeditions in 1819-22 and 1825-27, tho I don't recall mention of food caches from either. Could also be a somewhat garbled retelling of the stores of the HMS Fury wrecked in 1825 were cached on land & came to the rescue of John Ross'
expedition in 1829.I think several later expeditions found the were Fury's stores still edible as well.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 14 May 20 - 09:27 AM

It's a bit old now but even so it's worth reading:

Owen Beattie/ John Geiger:Frozen in Time: The Fate of the Franklin Expedition. Bloomsbury, 1987.

Whilst principally concerned with the Franklin seamen buried on Beechey Island, it also gives a good overview of the expedition, the various rescue attempts and what was found.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 May 20 - 10:06 AM

Didn't the autopsy on the sailors buried on Beechey find that they died from lead poisoning which sealed the tins of food they were eating?


I thought the earlier Franklin expeditions were by land when he was a young man. I have the books somewhere.

As for finding food caches, these could have been left by stranded whalers or other similar expeditions, or even by the Inuits. They would have had to have been well buried to survive polar bear scavenging or even of the Inuits themselves.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 14 May 20 - 01:43 PM

@Jim Carroll: I suspect your story mixes 3 Franklin expeditions! 1819 he was sent to Canada to go overland from Hudsons Bay to the Polar sea and map the coastline. Such an expedition requires setting out food caches. However, on the return journey they missed some of the caches with the result that 10 crew members died. 1825-1827 the admiralty sent him back to the area to carry on mapping where he'd left off in 1819. Presumably this time they found the caches they'd missed in 1819. Since, with 10 exceptions, all returned safely, it's the events of these expeditions which were remembered, mixed together and passed on.

@Steve Gardham: By all accounts now it wasn't so much the solder on the food tins as the concentrated supply of lead from the steam boilers on board that caused the poisoning. The sailors on Beechey Island had high lead levels but they also had diseases like TB. A consequence of the two mapping expeditions was that, when the ships were abandoned, Crozier and Fitzjames knew where they were heading for and, since they wouldn't be coming back, there was no sense in food caches.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 May 20 - 03:56 PM

The death of Franklin's party is generally attributed to a combination of causes including; hypothermia, exposure, starvation, scurvy, tuberculosis, zinc deficiency and lead poisoning - possibly caused either by the ships' water supplies or their tinned food in badly soldered tins.

Taichman and colleagues now believe that tuberculosis resulting in adrenal insufficiency, or Addison's disease, also contributed to the demise of the crew. Their findings were published in the journal Arctic in 2017.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 20 - 04:14 PM

i came across a singer some years ago a woman who had written a final verse about lead poisoning. was that you lynnh?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 15 May 20 - 03:13 AM

@Sandman: No.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 07:21 AM

The first two episodes of 10-part first season of The Terror are on BBC2 TV from 9pm on Wednesday March 3.

Faced with sub-zero conditions, limited resources, dwindling hope and fear of the unknown, the crews of HMS Erebus and HMS Terror are pushed to the brink – and no one is coming to save them.

The fate of the real expedition, which set sail in 1845 and led to more than 120 crew members inexplicably disappearing, has warranted a great deal of speculation. After almost 175 years of searching, coincidentally, the ships were discovered by arctic research groups in 2014 and 2016.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 06:44 PM

I watched the first episode of the BBC series and I wasn't impressed.
But I'll stick with it and see if it develops.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Joe G
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 07:23 PM

Yes it was very drawn out - I was disappointed to see it was 10 episodes (albeit only 45 mins each though the first one felt like more than an hour!)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Oriel
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 01:19 AM

'Inexplicable disappearance' - they were marooned in the middle of an Arctic winter. Surviving would have been 'inexplicable'!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 07:08 AM

"'Inexplicable disappearance' - they were marooned in the middle of an Arctic winter. Surviving would have been 'inexplicable'!"

Roald Amundsen and five others in his crew managed to survive two winters trapped in the Arctic ice Guest Oriel - The explanation for how they managed that is simple, they were far better prepared, had chosen the correct type of vessel and most important of all they were prepared to listen and learn from those who lived there.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Clive Pownceby
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 08:49 AM

Should have known when I saw Ridley Scott as Director that it would be hard-hitting, gory and erm, supernatural. These were interesting two segments that certainly drew me in but I doubt I'll be sticking it out. The filming and effects were very effective and an embroidered plotline makes for a good story but it's just too far from the reality of the expedition for me.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 09:41 AM

good point observer

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Roger.
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 03:15 PM

I suppose a lot of us 'folkie types' have been familiar with the story of Franklin due to the song, and like me have looked into the whole tale a little deeper.
I don't think there is much doubt these days about what actually happened, and from a personal point of view I think that these dramatised productions just mislead people and distort history.
I think it is good that the ships have been found, and as an ex Merchant Navy man I hope that they are left in their resting place.
God forbid that they should become a sideshow like the Titanic.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 05:11 AM

After two years and no word from the expedition, Lady Franklin urged the Admiralty to send a search party. Because the crew carried supplies for three years, the Admiralty waited another year before launching a search and offering a £20,000 reward (equivalent to almost £2 million in 2019) for finding the expedition.

The money and Franklin's fame led to many searches. At one point, ten British and two American ships, USS Advance and USS Rescue, headed for the Arctic. Eventually, more ships and men were lost looking for Franklin than in the expedition itself. Ballads such as "Lady Franklin's Lament", commemorating Lady Franklin's search for her lost husband, became popular. Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 06:34 AM

1906 Amundsen made the first Northwest Passage via the Simpson Strait in Gjoa
2007 The entire route was ice-free in the summer for the first time in recorded history
2010 Two gray whales native to the Pacific Ocean were seen in the Atlantic Ocean for the first time in more than 200 years
2012 A record number of 30 ships made the passage
2013 Nordic Orion became the first cargo ship to make the passage
2014 Nunavik became the first cargo ship to make the passage unaccompanied
2016 Crystal Serenity became the first tourist cruise ship to navigate the Northwest Passage
2019 Cruise ship MS Roald Amundsen became the first battery-hybrid powered ship to sail make the Northwest Passage

Though Franklin froze with his gallant crew
The ice has melted and his dream's come true
We see the ships sailing to and fro
Where is there for the polar bear to go?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 11:18 AM

" I hope that they are left in their resting place."

In which case they will most certainly decay and be lost forever. These ships are not graves, they were abandoned by their crews, unlike say the "Mary Rose" which sank with great loss of life. Fortunately for our understanding of the period, the "Mary Rose", once found, was subject to removal from the seabed and extensive archaeological investigation and preservation. Could there be similar advantages in raising HMS Terror? The significance of this particular ship is in her state of "completeness" and a detailed study of it would determine how she actually got to her final resting place [It is currently believed that she had to have been sailed there, she is in a sheltered position bound to the North by shallow water, islands and rocks]. The importance of that is that if she was sailed there then the Franklin Expedition, or at least one of it's ships DID actually make it through the North-West Passage.

As for the fate of Polar Bears? They do not require ice for survival, they are extremely good swimmers, there are masses of uninhabited islands and a plentiful food supply.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 01:44 PM

Polar bears spend most of their lives on the sea ice of the Arctic Ocean, which gives them access to the ringed seals that are their primary food. The loss of sea ice habitat is the biggest threat to the survival of polar bears.

Because of ongoing and potential loss of their sea habitat resulting from climate change, polar bears were listed as a threatened species in the US under the Endangered Species Act in May 2008.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 02:54 PM

Current info on ships in Wikipedia. I don't know what could be done to preserve the ships. I'd think messing with them would be destructive.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 04:32 PM

A visit to the site of Erebus;

Visit site of Erebus

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 05:06 PM

Henry, if this link is where you wanted to go, I can fix it and delete my message. Your link doesn't work.
I found a site for the HMS Terror.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 05:22 PM

Observer, the cold sea water is preserving the wrecks better than trying to raise them would. I'd guess if someone tried to move them, they'd disintegrate.

The Dokos, from 2200 - 2700 BC. Seems to have lasted.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 06:07 PM

The "Dokos" that Jeri thinks has lasted. This however from the link that Jeri provided:

"The ship itself is long gone, as everything biodegradable has been taken back by the sea. The remains at the sea floor of a cargo site of hundreds of clay vases and other ceramic items are evidence of the shipwreck.[1] The four-thousand-year-old ancient shipwreck was discovered by Peter Throckmorton on August 23, 1975."

First five words say it all.

Both the Vasa [1628] and the Mary Rose [1545] were successfully recovered from the seabed and will remain preserved for generations to view and learn from.

"Polar bears spend most of their lives on the sea ice of the Arctic Ocean, which gives them access to the ringed seals that are their primary food. The loss of sea ice habitat is the biggest threat to the survival of polar bears." - henryp

1. Polar Bears spend most of their lives on the sea ice of the Arctic Ocean henryp primarily because it is there.

2. If there was no sea ice the ringed seals would still be there, they would still have to come onshore.

3. The loss of sea ice habitat is the biggest threat to the survival of Polar Bears - Did a polar bear tell you that henryp? My guess henryp is that even without ice the polar bears would still hunt, catch and eat ringed seals in the Arctic wastes.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 06:12 PM

Thanks, Jeri. Visit Erebus. This is the site; https://www.adventurecanada.com/northwest-passage/a-visit-to-the-wrecks-of-the-hms-erebus-and-hms-terror-national-historic-site-of-canada

For some reason, can't get link to work.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 06:22 PM

Had a look. In the link that didn't work, "of-canada" is missing from the address. In any case, thanks for positng it again.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 01:29 AM

Polar bears rely heavily on sea ice for travelling, hunting, resting, mating and, in some areas, maternal dens. Their diet mainly consists of ringed and bearded seals; they need large amounts of fat to survive. Seals are a particularly rich food-source especially for hungry mothers and their growing cubs. The bear puts on most of its yearly fat reserves between late April and mid-July to maintain its weight in the lean seasons. Ringed seals use sea ice exclusively as their breeding, moulting and resting (haul-out) habitat, rarely if ever coming onto land. They create or maintain their holes in the ice using the well-developed claws on their fore-flippers. They survive the Arctic winter by building lairs (small caves) in the snow on top of sea ice during the winter and give birth in the early spring to their single pup inside a snow lair.

Food can be hard to come by for polar bears for much of the year. The food-free season can last 3 to 4 months - or even longer in areas like Canada's Hudson Bay. As their sea ice habitat recedes earlier in the spring and forms later in the fall, polar bears are increasingly spending longer periods on land. This has increased human-polar bear conflict when hungry polar bears go searching for food in the summer. Loss of their sea ice habitat resulting from climate change is the primary threat to polar bears Arctic-wide. The Arctic is warming about twice as fast as the global average, causing the ice that polar bears depend on to melt away. Loss of sea ice also threatens the seals which are the bear's main prey, and which need the ice to raise their young.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 04:43 AM

For what it's worth, my suspicion is that although the crews had removed most of the stores, fuel etc . from the ships, there were still working parties on board. The weather broke, stopping them getting back to the rest of the crews on land but opened the ice enough for at least one ship, Erebus, to start drifting down Victoria Strait toward her eventual last resting place in Maud Gulf. Inuit reported seeing one of the ships in Victoria Strait with smoke coming from the funnel. Also, the find of a ships boat, along with all sorts of 'junk' from the ship, on the shore of King William Island in such a position that it could be launched quite easily suggests that, before they died, a couple of sailors had been going out to the drifting Erebus on scavenging operations. The boat and a couple of bodies were discovered by one of the search operations (M'Clintock?) which also noted the orientation of the boat.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 08 Mar 21 - 02:54 AM

Quite right henryp the Polar Bears and the Ringed and Bearded Seals adapted over thousands of years [Roughly 150,000 years ago in the case of the Polar Bear] to survive in the climate they found themselves in - I dare say that they will continue to adapt to changing circumstances.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 08 Mar 21 - 04:18 AM

Precisely, Observer. They will adapt just like Franklin and his gallant crew.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 08 Mar 21 - 07:38 AM

Unfortunately for Franklin and his crew henryp there was no question of them "adapting" the approach of the entire expedition was one of ignorance and arrogance and they paid the ultimate price for their stupidity.

Amundsen's expedition on the other hand was thoroughly and meticulously planned and prepared. Much smaller in scale, better choice of strategy and choice of vessel and a willingness to learn from others. This expedition was trapped in the ice for two winter seasons but by the time the first had passed the entire expedition felt quite confident that they had the skills to survive in the Arctic for any length of time.

What Amundsen learned in the Arctic those two winters meant that in 1912 there was no doubt that Amundsen would be the first to the South Pole and that his team would have far fewer problems in the Antarctic.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Mar 21 - 08:55 AM

With slowly changing climate and habitat over say 10,000 years, I'm sure Polar bears would be able to adapt, but unfortunately their habitat is changing at an alarming rate. As a species they might just survive but we are putting enormous pressure on them by drastically reducing their preferred habitat.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 07:02 AM

The Terror

From The Observer today; Divers plan return to Franklin wrecks

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: rich-joy
Date: 25 Mar 21 - 10:02 PM

A 1970 recording by deceased English-born singer Colin Dryden (renowned in Australia) of "Lord Franklin", has just been posted to YouTube by his niece, with notes by English folk performer, Gerry Hallom :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVuO2DAV8oE


Cheers, R-J

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Apr 21 - 09:44 AM

Hurtigruten are offering "the ultimate 2023 full transit of the North West Passage". It's a 24 night voyage on the MS Roald Amundsen sailing from Nome, Alaska through the North West Passage and Davis Strait to Greenland, and ending at Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Prices start from £16,000 pounds for a Polar Outside cabin rising to £33,000 for an Expedition XL Suite with Balcony. And to think that the British government offered a £20,000 reward in 1850 "to any party or parties, of any country, who shall render efficient assistance to the crews of the discovery ships under the command of Sir John Franklin."

I shall have to start saving today!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,ottery
Date: 14 Apr 21 - 12:29 PM

If you turn up some more bones on King William Island, they may give you a discount??

I hope no one ever gives me £16 000. I know what I'd do with it now!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 14 Apr 21 - 01:01 PM

Re henryp's list of sucessful transits - there is one more. I remember an article and pictures from the time in National Geographic magazine.

"SS Manhattan was an oil tanker constructed at the Fore River Shipyard in Quincy, Massachusetts, that became the first commercial ship to cross the Northwest Passage in 1969." (Wiki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Manhattan_(1962)

My friend Ron Baxter (Sailor Ron on Mudcat, not net-connected these days) saw the Manhattan on one of his trips to the USA. He reckons the state of the ship's plates was the reason that ideas of a second transit were abandoned, along with plans for commercial exploitation (for the time being) of the North West Passage.

I just finished binge-watching "Terror" on BBC iPlayer. Interesting novelisation of how things might have been.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0954ks6/the-terror?seriesId=p0954l6v

Ross

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Reinhard
Date: 14 Apr 21 - 02:40 PM

Henryp, according to some online calculator, 1850's £20,000 are worth £2,710,103 now.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Apr 21 - 02:58 PM

Monday 26 April 2021 10.00pm More4 UK
Hunt for the Arctic Ghost Ship
The expedition that discovered the Victorian ship HMS Erebus.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Apr 21 - 03:03 PM

that'll teach him to tie keys to kites!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 09:15 AM

"Henryp, according to some online calculator, 1850's £20,000 are worth £2,710,103 now."

Chicken feed! David Cameron was in line to make £200 million from the Greensill flotation. But his hopes melted away like summer ice in the North West passage.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,MichaelKM
Date: 30 Jan 22 - 07:35 AM

Earlier in this thread, Richard Mellish quoted the second verse of Cyril Tawney's rendition of 'Lady Franklin's Lament', presumably taken from his cassette album 'Sailor's Delight'. This is identical to the second verse of 'Franklin's Crew' in Joanna C. Colcord's 'Songs of American Sailormen' (1938). I would would like to establish whether Tawney sang that variant or simply added the verse to the ubiquitous 'Lord Franklin' to make it more intelligible. Would anyone having this cassette be prepared to discuss this issue with me here?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 09:02 AM

Hurtigruten are offering a full transit of the North West Passage in 2024 from Reykjavik to Vancouver. That's something that Cook and Franklin were unable to achieve.

It's in comfort that they could only dream of, and at a cost that would take their breath away.

First class cabins £43,000 per person; Steerage cabins £13,500 per person.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:55 AM

Yeah, but there's been inflation....