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BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
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Subject: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 May 10 - 07:10 PM The thread title is in reference to the fact that SEIU members have been acting as a public strike force against whoever is Obama's latest target. Funny that SEIU gave over 60 million to get Obama elected, and is now in debt ( To B of A) something over 80 million. "D.C. Metro Police Escorted SEIU Protesters to Bank Of America Executive's Home Posted by Archy Cary May 21st 2010 at 11:11 am in Featured Story, Justice/Legal, Politics The family of Greg Baer, Bank of America executive, is located in a jurisdiction protected by the Montgomery County Police Department (MCPD), which responded promptly to a disturbance call from his neighborhood last weekend. According to Corporal Dan Friz, an MCPD spokesperson in Rockville, Maryland, the department received a disturbance call from one of Baer's neighbors at 4:10 pm last Sunday. Four MCPD units arrived at Baer's Greenville Rd. address at 4:15 pm. At least two Metropolitan Police Department units from the nearby District of Columbia were already at the scene when they arrived. Why? Because police cars attached to the Washington MPD's Civil Disturbance Unit had escorted the SEIU protesters' buses to Baer's home. Such cross-jurisdictional escort activity is not uncommon for both departments according to Friz and Metro Police Department spokesperson Officer Eric Frost. Still, the District police did not inform their colleagues of what was about to happen in one of their Maryland neighborhoods. The Maryland officers reported there were approximately 500 protesters on and near the front lawn of Baer's house. Montgomery County was not given a "heads-up" concerning the planned protest. Although a protest permit is technically required in Montgomery County, in practice no citation is issued if the protestors disperse when requested to do so by the owner of the private property they occupy. The primary role of the Washington cops in this event was to protect the protesters. The D.C. officers had no authority to act to disperse the protesters even had the homeowner been present and asked them to vacate the private property. The event ended as a "dash one"– no arrests, no citations – according to Friz. The Montgomery County units left the scene at 5:29 pm. According to Friz, "members of protest groups know how far to push the envelope" and wait for "the key words" – for example, the property owner's request that they leave – in order to avoid arrests or citations. For example, protesters are required to keep on the move, since a standing protest violates a Montgomery County code. And, while photographs clearly suggest that many of the SEIU protesters were stationary, the District police don't have any authority to enforce Montgomery County laws. So, let's sum this up: A caravan of SEIU buses receive a Metropolitan (D.C.) Police Department escort to a private home in Maryland where the protesters, from all appearances, violate Montgomery County law by engaging in a stationary protest. The Montgomery County police were not informed by their cross-jurisdictional colleagues of the impending, unusually large protest pending in their jurisdiction. What's up with that? Had the mob decided to torch the house, the D.C. police would not have been authorized to intervene. Not their jurisdiction. They're just escorts. Meanwhile, a teenage boy is home alone, frightened by what's happening outside his front door. There's something very wrong with this picture." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 21 May 10 - 07:13 PM Yes, how you can trade in this history is vile! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 May 10 - 07:14 PM So, I wait to hear your comments about calling conservatives such names as KKK. The silence was defining-= I fail to see that you have any real concerns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 21 May 10 - 07:32 PM Not only is the thread title a loaded, provocative, rhetorical device, but there is no clear explanation as to what 'escorted' might mean, who authorized what, and how it was all resolved. And if anyone called anyone KKK, they need to be named, not hinted at. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Rapparee Date: 21 May 10 - 07:33 PM Police should not operate outside their operational districts without notifying the proper authorities, except in such cases as hot pursuit and even then they have radios.... The DC police, without notifying Monkey County, should have left the escort business at the District line. I do not like the idea of protesters in front of private homes, even if they stay on public property (e.g., the sidewalk). The kid should have called 911. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 May 10 - 07:38 PM What is SEIU? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 21 May 10 - 07:41 PM My point is..."Obama's Brownshirts" insinuates that Obama either instigated or approved whatever it was all about. I seriously doubt he had any idea it was happening, whereas the 'original, namesake 'brownshirts' were a clearly owned & designated arm of you-know-who. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: pdq Date: 21 May 10 - 07:43 PM Service Employees International Union is a labor union with 2.2 million members. They have close ties to the Obama election machine and were part of the coalition that demanded nationalisation of health care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 21 May 10 - 07:43 PM SEIU is a labor union group... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 May 10 - 07:46 PM BillD, Your silence on the other threads ( against conservatives ) gives you little to comment on. I note the complaints here, from those silent when Tea Party members were called KKK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 21 May 10 - 07:48 PM *grin*...this article from Fox news might explain some of the 'spin' "Fortune columnist and Fox News contributor Nina Easton is calling a recent protest outside her neighbor's home a form of "personal intimidation." Easton writes, "Last Sunday... 500 screaming, placard-waving strangers [were] on a mission to intimidate my neighbor." That neighbor is Greg Baer, a deputy general counsel at Bank of America." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 21 May 10 - 07:53 PM WHO called anyone KKK? I didn't. No one I know did. If I had been asked, I would have agreed the Tea Party was NOT KKK....they were just silly and uninformed. "When I say nothing, I don't necessarily MEAN nothing." Ashleigh Brilliant |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Don Firth Date: 21 May 10 - 08:05 PM I'm a bit surprised to see that it was BB who started this thread. I thought it was going to be another one started by our resident paranoid hate-monger, ichMael! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: pdq Date: 21 May 10 - 08:05 PM The Tea Party members went to parks, barbequed chicken and hotdogs, and listened to speeches. They entertained themselves and intimidated nobody. The three or so legislators who said they were offended walked by the Tea Party rallies. They could have gone another way. These SEIU goons are targeting people's houses. 500 strong? That is terrorism. BTW, they have adopted the color purple, so bb should call the "Purple Shirts". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 May 10 - 08:11 PM Yes, but I like purple! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 May 10 - 08:13 PM Notice the left leaning here attack me, while ignoring the facts presented. Typical. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Sorcha Date: 21 May 10 - 08:14 PM All I can say is 'oh for pitys sake' I'm pretty sure Bill D can speak 'for me' here. KKK me arse. Brown shirts? Hardly. Get a life. Or read 'The Color Purple'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: katlaughing Date: 21 May 10 - 08:15 PM But, you don't know the first rule of journalism...spell out the meaning of acronyms BEFORE using them throughout the article! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Greg F. Date: 21 May 10 - 08:27 PM I thought it was going to be another one started by our resident paranoid hate-monger, ichMael!. You're half right! Its the OTHER resident paranoid hate-monger BuShite Faux News dittohead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: beardedbruce Date: 21 May 10 - 08:29 PM As I said, attacks on me rather than comments on the SEIU. Typical leftists. When you can't win, attack the other person. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 May 10 - 08:46 PM No locals in Alberta, probably why I never heard of them (although they exist in ON, PQ and Sask.). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 21 May 10 - 08:51 PM I know nothing ABOUT the SEIU, other than their name and that they are a union group. I see MY comment, that **Obama** was not likely to have been involved, was ignored in favor of just categorically castigating 'leftists' for whatever it is they did NOT do. Bruce...YOU made a semi-accusation. Defend THAT.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: ichMael Date: 21 May 10 - 08:59 PM Don't drag me into this, or I'll put together a page about things Obama's on RECORD saying about his various "Corps." His employment packages are all about getting people to depend on him personally. Remember the day when all public schools in America were supposed to gather their kids for an address by Herr Obama? http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/090309dnmetobamaschools.3ca94f4.html And some pictures, for the verbally challenged: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a47/behindliberallines/obama-youth.gif http://willyloman.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/hitler-youth.jpg http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/may2009/150509top3.jpg I feel another webpage coming on. Obama Jurgen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 21 May 10 - 09:07 PM You go far enough left and it becomes right.
Sincerely,
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 21 May 10 - 09:20 PM Hey, ya'll... The righties can't help themselves... Seems that their hero, Glen Beck, can't utter Obama's anme without makin' some reference to either Hitler or the Nazis... His brain is completely polluted with these analogies that his listeners, followers, disciples or whatevers can't help themselves either... Garbage in, garbage out... Pure and simple... b~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Ron Davies Date: 21 May 10 - 09:33 PM Congratulations, Bruce. In a field with lots of stiff competition, you win the purple prose award of the year so far--and just for a title of a thread. A stunning accomplishment. But you'll be hard put to top it. And you know how it is: once you set a standard, everybody expects you to meet or exceed it every time. Good luck on that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 21 May 10 - 09:42 PM How about one that is alot closer to the truth, Ron??? A thread entitled "Glen Beck's Brownshirts"... I mean, the guy has Nazi Turrets Syndrome... It's all he can talk about... Nazis everywhere and under every rock... Especially if they are, ahhh, Nazi Democrats!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 21 May 10 - 09:45 PM BTW, what is the score so far on people exterminated from wars that Bush started verses the ones that scarey Nazi Obama has started??? Last I hear that Bush is winning like a million to zip... That's right... We hear all about the holocost... Bush had his own little version in Irag and Afganistan and has personally ordered up invasions that have killed upwards of a million people... Hitler would be proud of that accomplishment and prolly give Obama an F... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Don Firth Date: 21 May 10 - 10:35 PM BB and ichMael, this is must reading for you two: CLICKY Don Firth P. S. No need to thank me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 21 May 10 - 10:42 PM The problem as I see it isn't that alot of folks have their heads up their own asses as much as havin' their heads up someone elses' ass... Glen Beck has som many folks who have their head up his ass that he has to crap out the other end... And on TV, no less??? Think that explains alot here... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Janie Date: 21 May 10 - 10:53 PM Bruce, I see one post that could be considered a personal attack. Otherwise, I read legitimate and thoughtful comments that are critical of the lack of critical thinking expressed in what you have posted. Regarding the opening post. Some of it is information. Some of it is assertion or opinion. The writer apparently documented from statements made by one or both police jurisdictions that the physical crossing of jurisdictional boundaries and coordination and cooperation between jurisdictions is common, and there appears to be nothing remarkable about the fact that Washington DC police were present. There is no indication based on what the reporter reports as documented fact or information that the DC police exceeded or superceded the authority of the Montgomery Co. police. There is nothing to indicate either police department made statements that the primary role of the Washington police was to protect the protesters. That appears to be solely the assertion or opinion of the author, represented as fact. There is no indication that Obama, or the Obama administration was in any way involved in any of this. I have read nothing here or in reputable media to suggest that the police department of Washington DC is the political tool of the Obama administration. I also never read anything in reputable media to suggest they were the tool of the Bush administration. Mudcat folks are heavily weighted toward some degree left of center - no surprise for a folkie site. Not all of those left-of-center who post here win prizes for the thoughtfulness and critical thinking skills with which they express their opinions. But a few do. There are also a few libertarians among us and when they express their views their arguments are usually very cogent. I read what they have to say and seriously consider their points of view. I may not agree, but I very much respect their pov. There is a legitimate conservative point of view on most issues. Unfortunately, there is no one,( for the past few years anyway), on Mudcat, who appears able or willing to articulately and thoughtfully present a conservative perspective. IchMael's postings give the impression that he has a paranoid personality. I don't think that is true of you, or of pdq. (Mentioning you, pdq, because my impression is you are the other conservative voice most likely to chime in on political threads.) However, it seems to me that both of you are more interested in provoking reaction than in provoking thoughtful debate or discussion. Understandable, given that the conservative pov is in such a minority here. Understandable or not, you are missing an opportunity. I've taken a long time to write this. It may be there are now more postings than can rationally be construed to be personal attacks against you, Bruce. But there was only one post at the time that objectively could be viewed as a personal attack. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Amos Date: 21 May 10 - 11:48 PM Bruce: I think you should have your meds checked, man... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: ichMael Date: 21 May 10 - 11:56 PM The Increasingly Shocking Parallels Between Obama And Hitler Youth http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2218029/posts Excellent overview as of about a year ago. Mentions "brownshirts" at the end. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Joe Offer Date: 22 May 10 - 12:11 AM I suppose I really ought to crack down on thread titles like these. When you get thread titles like Obama's Brownshirts and the one about the KKK and tea parties, and the propaganda about the New Mexico governor, it gets a little thick. It all leads to muckraking and bigotry, instead of rational discussion. Chill out, folks. Remember that thread titles are supposed to inform readers of the topic of discussion. They are not expected to make a political statement. In addition, when our thread titles are "over the top," they tend to draw in unwanted wacko visitors. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: olddude Date: 22 May 10 - 12:24 AM After wading through a sea of these endless lets bash the other party threads I would like to respectfully suggest that in America if an elected official, Obama in this case is not the guy you like in power, then simply vote for someone else in the next election. You see like it or not, whoever it is, they can be voted out. And if the majority of the American people think he, she, they are doing a fine job, then they will get the majority vote and will remain in power. In the meantime, anyone in office regardless of party, that you or me or anyone else doesn't like, they are however, ones that the American people said they want in office. Me I could not stand Bush, Junior, senior or anything in between but the people elected them and I simply voted for the other guy until the other guy finally won .. That is the best approach since these threads do nothing but garner hard feelings, arguments and contempt for one another and simply are not productive to anyone or anything for that matter. Now is it wrong for a bunch of thugs regardless of party to harass anyone ... yes ... that is a matter for the police. Is Obama the blame, no ... I suspect the commander and chief has far more important things to address then to organize the harassment of some GM or whoever. So everything becomes this big political knee jerk political rambling. If harassed, Take the matter up with the cops , that is what I would do.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: LadyJean Date: 22 May 10 - 12:24 AM My parents were Republicans. Dad wouldn't allow us to call someone a facist. He'd seen the real thing. We don't have them here. This is NOT my parents' Republican party! Anybody drive on an interstate highway lately. They were built by the U.S. Government under a Republican president named Dwight Eisenhower. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Don Firth Date: 22 May 10 - 02:05 AM The Republican Party has, indeed, changed—shall I say "radically"—since the days of Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was probably the second best Republican president during the twentieth century. The best? Theodore Roosevelt (1901-1909). Nevertheless, the Interstate Highway System, which is a great convenience to automobile travelers, cannot honestly be pointed to as a project of unalloyed "socialism." From and article on the history of the freeway system: The Interstate Highway System was authorized by the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 – popularly known as the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act of 1956 – on June 29. It had been lobbied for by major U.S. automobile manufacturers and championed by President Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was influenced by his experiences as a young Army officer crossing the country in the 1919 Army Convoy on the Lincoln Highway, the first road across America. Eisenhower also had gained an appreciation of the German Autobahn network as a necessary component of a national defense system while he was serving as Supreme Commander of the Allied forces in Europe during World War II. In addition to facilitating private and commercial transportation, it would provide key ground transport routes for military supplies and troop deployments in case of an emergency or foreign invasion.Eisenhower left us with the warning to beware of the power of the military-industrial complex. Good advice! But let us be aware that the military, the automobile industry, and the oil companies pushed very hard for the building of an Interstate Highway System. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 22 May 10 - 02:59 AM You know, today I talked with a full believer in Obama..she even voted for him, we got along great!..but even she, as liberal as she could be was having new misgivings about him.(Without me saying a word)..I was only listening...she now is beginning to swing away from him, and said, "I voted for him because I was believing in what he was saying, but all this stuff he was doing, and the way he is doing it really scares me. I felt like I was deceived" I thought I'd post that, because after reading Bruce's comment "There's something very wrong with this picture." ..then following it up with "So, I wait to hear your comments about calling conservatives such names as KKK. The silence was defining-= I fail to see that you have any real concerns."...and I wonder, Are a lot of people beginning to feel uncomfortable about him, and his administration? A lot of people out here are seeming to talk about it, and most are feeling 'uneasy' or downright angry. Has anyone out there, starting to feel that way also? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,kendall Date: 22 May 10 - 05:51 AM I have met BB, and although I disagree with almost everything he says, he still has a right to say it. I've said it before and I'll say it again,I've never learned anything from someone who agrees with me. BB if you could turn the heat down a notch you could still state your opinion, even those that are backed up by Faux Noise, and still get your point across. But, what do I know? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,TIA Date: 22 May 10 - 07:58 AM I think this was said completely without any realization of the tremendous internal irony.... "Typical leftists. When you can't win, attack the other person." Hahahahah. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 22 May 10 - 08:08 AM Hey, ya'll... Apparently ya'll ain't watchin' Glen Beck... MSNBC, granted a left leaning station, did a piece on Glen Beck's addiction to using references to Hitler and Nazis when talkin' about Obama... I mean, it was dozens of snippets of his show where he did exactly that... So is it any wonder that the righties here have polluted their own abilities to ferret out the truth??? I mean, if you have right wing propaganda in yer ear 24/7, hey, this is what you are going to get... The problem with it, as I have pointed out, is that Obama has done nuthin' to deserve these references while the right's hero, George Bush, ordered up two invasions which snuffed out upwards of a million lives!!! This is the real story here and the right knws it... They are just too guilty to confess that that ****blood**** is on their hands and the hands of ****their**** heros... That's the real story but... ...rather than admit that they are accomplices to mass murder they try to change the subject with these hysterical and bogus lies about Obama... The real brownshirts are those on the right... They are the one's with the blood o their hands... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 May 10 - 08:36 AM Typical leftists. When you can't win, attack the other person. Something that the people that bruce likes obviously never do... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: olddude Date: 22 May 10 - 09:50 AM BB like many of the others here I think is a good person. His choice of topics and his choice of words are unfortunate as they do nothing to promote reasonable discussion on the point he wishes to make ... personally I hate the political threads, I don't really know why I find myself reading them ... haven't figured out why I do that yet. I suppose it is like the dynamic that draws onlookers to an accident scene. Somehow I think music discussion on a music site is a far better topic then these endless politics and religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Amos Date: 22 May 10 - 10:09 AM While I am willing to forgive BB for getting overheated, having sinned in similar vein myself, I find the thread title to be disgusting and histrionic. It's not a communication--it's a dramatization. It should be withdrawn, as it is shameful. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Arkie Date: 22 May 10 - 10:50 AM I get emails from relatives that I know to be decent caring and even charitable people passing on outright lies and half truths that they did not create but still pass them on as the truth. I usually investigate and often send the results back to the person who forwarded to me. However, I do not understand why these truly wonderful people in so many respects buy into stuff like this brownshirt thing. I would put the scum that creates this type of lie in the same category as human and drug trafficking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: olddude Date: 22 May 10 - 11:07 AM Arkie it is a dynamic that I cannot understand myself. I get these emails from people that I truly know have wonderful hearts that are just border line or straight on hate messages about the so called "liberals" Obama etc ... I try to respond in a polite and questioning manner like where do you get this type of information and as intelligent as I know you are how could you possible buy into this hate. They then go off on me. Now I do not know how our country fell into such an abyss but I do know that when I was a kid our political leaders of different parties would address one another like "I disagree with my friend and colleague xxxx" today it is Nazi, facist, socialist and every other hate term that is frankly a disgrace. Very sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: olddude Date: 22 May 10 - 11:25 AM A coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit. Thomas Jefferson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Ebbie Date: 22 May 10 - 11:30 AM Arkie and Olddude, I have the same experience. People I love and admire and respect in most things send me some pure unadulterated crap., outright lies, easily refuted lies, lies that were first circulated years ago about some other hapless person- and they seem to think that they are sending me wake up material. As a general rule, when it's an outright lie, I say something fairly mild like "It's just not true, folks", link to some explanatory article(s) and do a REPLY ALL. The rest I just don't respond to. I have no idea of how many people click the links - I do know that I've earned the reputation of being hardheaded. lol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: MARINER Date: 22 May 10 - 11:43 AM I don't know about Brownshirts but a Faux News contributer (Don't know her name but she didn't have blonde hair, unusual on Faux.)called them Obama's Henchmen, so it must be true ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 22 May 10 - 12:48 PM I 'think' I see a very different set of issues, values and, for want of a better term, "hot buttons" driving the basic conservative movement these days......not just different opinions on how to deal with many of the concerns facing us, but very different framing OF the issues. That's a hard one to document, because when you ask people what their concerns, values and issues are, you get kinda standard slogans. (and often they will be similar from both the left and right). But when you take a number of statements, slogans, remarks, claims...etc...and analyze them and extract what they *seem* to be for, against and compare their reasons FOR their choices, there appears to be a not-so-explicitly stated, hidden agenda in many of the conservative voices I hear most often....and I mean from the top of the Republican & Libertarian parties right down through pundits on TV and would-be office seekers and all the way to Tea-party rallies and folks I talk to here on Mudcat. (hmm..? ..Huh? what's Bill babbling about now?) I said it was hard to explicate simply....it would take days to spell it out, but there are clues if you listen to some of the debates, speeches and interviews of members of Congress who supposedly represent this very frustrated and resentful conservative electorate these days. Karl Rove almost promised them he had it set up so they would essentially keep power forever....and BOOM!...it all went up in smoke as 'certain' foolish folks were just too obviously greedy and complacent, and the conservatives found themselves being guilty of some of the very sins they railed against.. (overspending, moral turpitude, etc...) Now, they have a president who is not only a Democrat, but a well-spoken LEADER-type who is actually doing things. Conservatives can't really point at basic wrongness in Obama's approach, so they are dragging their feet in frustration, and trying to derail almost every bit of significant legislation! (They sure thought THEY had the right to pass stuff when THEY had a majority!) Now we are seeing name calling, mudslinging, specious attacks and heavy-handed, frantic attempts to get someone...anyone...into office who will restore their majority...even if it includes a boat load of Rand Pauls who can't even hide their pettiness and clones of Michelle Bachmann and Jim DeMint and total idiots like James Inhofe who have NO concept of truth & accuracy, but just want to elevate extreme conservatism to power. Adding to this sad situation, we have this internet/WWW phenomenon allowing every wing-nut in captivity to throw out the most extreme views in such quantity that it is hard to FIND sane voices representing moderate conservatism. Thus, when one of our Mudcat conservatives looks at sites he trusts, he is likely to find mostly slanted, colored, poorly vetted, Gerrymandered, pre-digested propaganda to even comment on. That story about the SEIU was all of the above, but that is what was available, and if that's all one sees, it can be made to 'appear' that Obama and his crew are using police to further political gains. Could it BE that conservatives are not necessarily against the 'technique', but only against it being used by their opponents? <☺ nawwww...they're just desperate for ANY artifical wall to throw mud against..... (remember...I said it would take days to flesh out all my suppositions here....and I realize that BB and ichMael and others will, if they bother at all, just pick out irrelevant details to dispute. *shrug*... but I wanted to see my own musings in print.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 May 10 - 03:12 PM Too many people on Mudcat who delight in throwing muck around. Most of it ends upsticking on them, but they persist. Yes, Joe, the titles (and much of the muck) should be removed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: katlaughing Date: 22 May 10 - 04:06 PM Thanks for that, BillD. I look forward to reading it more carefully later tonight. Joe, I agree with Q and others...please change the thread title and any others which border on the same edge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 22 May 10 - 04:54 PM Including the "Tea Party KKK" one. We really don't need that kind of thread title. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 May 10 - 05:45 PM The Republicans are divided, and lack a strong leader. Much of what Bill D says is true. Conservative people, I think, are mostly sitting back and wondering what to do. Palin, Paul, Beck, etc., all seem to be 'kneejerk' politicians- they please the crowd at a rally but when one considers their remarks at leisure, one tends to back away and hope for a leader who considers problems deeply and doesn't just give out one-line 'zingers'. Locally and for a time they attract followers but not true conservatives. Time will tell if conservatives can find a leader who can offer constructive criticism and advice and influence the majority party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 22 May 10 - 05:49 PM True conservatives seem to have gone into hiding since the NeoCons took over the Republican Party. With the death of Will Buckley they don't even have a voice any more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 22 May 10 - 05:57 PM Well, as long as we have Republicans who are exposing KKK seperatist values (Paul) the the KKK anolgy sticks like glue... There is a reason that the very few black folks who originally attened these Tea Party rallies ain't going to them any more... The Repubs need to clean up their act and quit catering to rednecks... When they quit that and denounce Paul's values that business owners have a right to refuse serving folks they don't like and quit wearing guns to Obama rallies then we will have something to discusss... Right now, they are acting like terrorists and should be treated as such... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Don Firth Date: 22 May 10 - 06:04 PM Bill D., your post of 22 May 10 - 12:48 p.m. is well thought out and much to the point. Thank you. I voted for Obama on the basis that, of the available candidates in the running who actually had a chance to win, his agenda was the nearest to that of Dennis Kucinich. If I have any issues with Obama, it's that I agreed with most of the agenda he expressed during the campaign and had great expectations for him and from him. I must admit to being a bit disappointed in how things are working out, but I believe the problem is two-fold: First, the Republican opposition is absolutely determined to block everything he wants to do, to the extent of working against the general good of the country rather than let Obama accomplish any of the things on his initial agenda. It's obstructionism simply for the sake of trying to win political points. And second, Obama is trying far to hard to elicit cooperation and build concensus when this is the absolutely last thing that he will ever get from the neo-"conservatives." Sometimes you just can't "make nice." You have to pull out all the stops, forget about getting cooperation from the opposition, and do whatever is necessary to get done what needs to be done. This, of course, will get one called all sorts of things: "Fascist," "dictator," "Nazi," "socialist," and on through the whole litany of what is already being said gratuitiously by the neo-"conservatives" and their blatantly biased cohorts in the so-called "news" nedia—along with, of course, the lunatic fringe, like our resident paranoid hate-monger, "ichMael" with his manic cranking out of ridiculously libelous web sites. ichMael is not alone. There is more than enough of this sort of vicious malevolence going around Web pages like ichMael's come from just about every area in the country, but there seems to be a disproportionate number of them originating in the South, which tends to make me think that one of the major reasons for the sheer brutality of their attacks on Obama is simply that, as far as they are concerned, he is the wrong color. Therefore their hate knows no bounds, and they will say anything against him, accusing him of things that would never occur to any sane person, especially to Obama himself. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 May 10 - 06:20 PM Enough of this KKK, brownshirt, fascist, etc. shit. It infers that the people whose policies you would object to would hang a ------ to a tree, or cordon Jews into their ghetto and set fire to it, or bomb Ethiopians to see their bodies scatter like a flower opening. Is that what you mean? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 22 May 10 - 06:21 PM (thanks, kat & Don F,) " the KKK anolgy sticks like glue"...no, it doesn't. Read my post on the other thread. Rand Paul is a shallow fool, but you CAN'T stretch the analogy that far. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 22 May 10 - 06:32 PM " Obama is trying far to hard to elicit cooperation and build concensus when this is the absolutely last thing that he will ever get from the neo-"conservatives." Sometimes you just can't "make nice." Don...from what I've seen lately, he is getting that point! It may be that he knew what would happen, and just wanted the record to be crystal-clear that he TRIED and made offers and listened. Whatever... his rhetoric is getting harsher and the Dems procedures reflecting the truth. It's hard to wrap one's head around the idea that the Dems really think differently than the Repubs about how to BE in power. During the Bush era, he & his minions had no trouble asserting that THEY won, and they were gonna do what they wanted! (Witness all Bush's 'signing statements' to avoid legislation that the liberal could fight.) This Wall Street reform is one example, and now he intends to try immigration... we shall see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 22 May 10 - 06:33 PM Fine, Q... Have the Republican Party denounce strongly Paul's value that what black people (and white) fought so hard for in the 50's and 60's is utter crap... Or just wrong... The Repubs are playing to their redneck base and are scared to stand up and say that black folks should be able to eat anywhere white folks can eat. or swim in any pool that white folks can swim... Or even beelected president without a bunch of morons playing games about him not being a citizen... Until there is some level of civility on the right side then we on the left will call these bastards down every time... You can take that to the bank... We have let the right get away with friggin' murder in my life time... They killed off our leaders in the 60's... They wear guns to Obama rallies... They preach seperatism... They play games with severly dumbed down people... They kill doctors... I mean, they ahve been terrorists in our country and there can bo no truce until they quit trying to terrorize and scare people to death... Or just kill people to death... No, I am not in any mood to cowtie to friggin' terrorists... maybe you are... I marched for civil rights in the 60's... My mother marched for civil rights, too... If I just say, "Let's jst get along" now without the terrorists amnong us aggreeing to quit terrorizing people then what my mom and I marched for is squat... No, there has to be some "Civility Pledge" from the right... Until then, no fucking deal!!! I mean, I don't trust them to no assiinate Obama... They need to get a grip!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 22 May 10 - 06:41 PM Yes, Bobert... those things are true...and need to be said....without the labels. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 May 10 - 08:50 PM Ah, yes, now conservatives are "the terrorists among us." What utter crap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: pdq Date: 22 May 10 - 08:55 PM ...get a grip!!! ~ B-pert Good advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 22 May 10 - 09:14 PM Ah, yes, now conservatives are "the terrorists among us." What utter crap. Was it liberals who broke up town meetings with violent shouts and threats of greater violence (e.g. unconcealed weapons and shirts about watering the tree of liberty with blood)? No, it was conservatives. Was Timmy McVeigh, by any definition a terrorist, a liberal? It may be tarring with too broad a brush. But it's far from utter crap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 22 May 10 - 09:27 PM No, liberal try to reason... The right doesn't have those abilities becasue they are basically stupidf people who have no compassion and no ability to think for themselves so they buly, bully and bully... They steal elections.... They kill people they don't like... They send in goons to disrupt town meetings... They are borish assholes who have not done their homework and are incapable of compromise and incapable of having any abilities to govern... All they want to do is shove their Talibanish bullshit down yer throut and if you don't like it they'll just kill you... That's the real deal here... I ain't callin' no one no names... I'm just callin' history as it has occured in y life time... Name one rightie who has been killed by the left... Just one!!! no one can, becaasue it hasn't happened... I'm so tired of this shit!!! The left owes no one any apologies here and buying into thei "well, ralph, both sides are guilty" bullshit is just that... It's the ***BIGASS LIE*** and we on the left need to stand up to these thugs, these goons, these liars and say we're tired of haviong our people killed by ya'll, we're tired of having elections stolen... Hey, this ain't the Third World that ya'll on the right wish it were... And, BTW, quit revising history... Tell the children the truth... This ain't friggin' german in the 30's... (Or is it???) And no more equatin' Obama to Hitler... That is very fucked up thinking!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 May 10 - 10:27 PM Thanks for calling conservatives stupid. And "borish" assholes. And "talibanish." Fuck off Bobert! No point in further discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 22 May 10 - 10:46 PM Never was... And for the record, that is what so-called conservatives (which really ain't conservatives at all but people pissed off that their fraternity ain't suckin' the front teet of corporate America) have become... They aren't eh William Buckey intellectuals... They are thugs... Any of ya'lls want to ***discuss*** policy then fine but I've had enough of ya'll preachin', cyber-stalkin and game playin'... Ya'll want to call Obama a "socialist" and someone that weren't born here then yer like the Taliban... Yeah, that's what the Taliban does in Afganistan... They sneak into villiages and scare people and tell them lies... Ya'll righties make me sick!!! Ain't no policy discussions... Just the same old, same old.... And for the record, ya'll wouldn't understand or recognize a true conservative if he or she bit you on yer partisan asses... BTW, the Taliban is lookin' for a few "good men"... E-mail yer applications to Taliban@mudcat.com... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: olddude Date: 22 May 10 - 11:29 PM I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. Thomas Jefferson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: olddude Date: 22 May 10 - 11:41 PM I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. Thomas Jefferson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 May 10 - 04:11 AM Bill D: "I said it was hard to explicate simply....it would take days to spell it out, but there are clues if you listen to some of the debates, speeches and interviews of members of Congress who supposedly represent this very frustrated and resentful conservative electorate these days. .....it all went up in smoke as 'certain' foolish folks were just too obviously greedy and complacent, and the conservatives found themselves being guilty of some of the very sins they railed against.. (overspending, moral turpitude, etc...)" GfS: I used an analogy, during the 'elections', which validation comes everyday, both in the 'news' talk shows, and in here. It boils down to the 'right' wing and the 'left' wing, are on the same bird! You get into a ring with a boxer. HE is your opponent. He comes at you with a right, a left, a left and another right....but the boxer is still your opponent. Once you're watching out for the 'right hook' he nails you with the 'left', and vice-versa...IT'S Still the same boxer....then Bill writes:... "....Now, they have a president who is not only a Democrat, but a well-spoken LEADER-type who is actually doing things. Conservatives can't really point at basic wrongness in Obama's approach, so they are dragging their feet in frustration, and trying to derail almost every bit of significant legislation! (They sure thought THEY had the right to pass stuff when THEY had a majority!)" GfS: Regardless of who was supposed to be REPRESENTING US, both sides, in government ruled against the WILL of the PEOPLE! As unpopular as Nixon was, when the support of the people turned away from being in favor of the Vietnam war, he did pull out. Clinton, seemed to, at least 'adjust' when the will of popular opinion swung. the rest he did in secret, or by shenanigans(NAFTA vote, for one, the housing-banking thing was another). Both have hurt this country. Bush's war, was one. Hillary even voted for it! So it is somewhat lopsided to say it was/is one, more than the other. Most of the time, they(both) are selling us on a 'position' that in everyday life, nobody really cares about...unless we HAVE to think about it! It is to their advantage, that the citizens are polarized about all this!!..and frankly BOTH of them SUCK! I think the best thing that we can do, is develop our families, not depend on the government, pursue the things you want to do, and develop your talents!!! Let your talents speak your heart, to let others know, that inside, we are just like each other...and not by governmental decree!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 23 May 10 - 07:37 AM Does any one know what percentage of the SEIU is composed of illegal aliens, and if it is a large number, why would they have a voice in American policy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 23 May 10 - 07:52 AM Name one rightie who has been killed by the left... Just one!!! no one can, becaasue it hasn't happened... Thin ice Bobert. Or maybe the US is too far away to remember Germany's RAF. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 23 May 10 - 09:32 AM I'm talkin' about in my life time here in the US, Peter, which spans purdy much the entire post-war (WW II) period... That's where the troubles have played out... The right wing came outta the FDR yearas with blind hatred... They hated the fact that FDR, in essence, put down some rules and tried to creat a society where people had some level of security in exchange for their labors... Horrors!!! Ever since, these bling hatred of the New Deal have been passed down thru several generations and ***BIG Prize*** has alsways been the dismantling of the New Deal... BTW, the dismantling began with Ronald Reagan and over the last 30 years Boss Hog has never had it so good... Yep, he's seen a massive redistribution of wealth to himslef and his rightie buddies at the expense of the working/middle class... The average working man has made no real progress since 1982 in terms or real wages (indexed)... Also during this post-war period we have seen the right react very badly to the Civil Rights Act which they now say shouldn't prevent a Woolworth's from allowing balck people to sit and be served at the lunch counter... We have seen the right kill off the very best and brightest of the lefts leaders... We have seen the right kill doctors... We have had to put up with their borish, bullying domestic terrorism... The planned disruption at the town meetings this past August being case in point... So, yeah... There is polorization but the behaviors between the left and right in these times is a world apart... The left has used arguments... The right has used terrorism... Now we have the right trying to paint the left/Obama as Nazis... This is what psycologists refer to as "projectionism"... The left ain't the side that is responsible for the holocost that George Bush ordered up in Iraq... The left didn't hire goons to try to harrass and terrorize poll workers in the Florida recount... The left hasn't stolen elections... No, what we have is a major case of the rigth g projecting its bad beahvior onto people who, frankly, understand what Martin Luther King was teaching... That's the way it is and the left owes no one any apologies here and shouldn't allow the ***BIGASS LIE*** about bad behavior on both side to be uttered without challenging it... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 23 May 10 - 09:44 AM I know B. And I would think along the same lines as yourself. A statement like that has the potential to come back at you and bite you though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Ebbie Date: 23 May 10 - 10:00 AM Well put, Bobert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Amos Date: 23 May 10 - 10:45 AM I think the best thing that we can do, is develop our families, not depend on the government, pursue the things you want to do, and develop your talents!!! Let your talents speak your heart, to let others know, that inside, we are just like each other...and not by governmental decree!! GfS I celebrate seeing a proposition from GfS with which I profoundly agree. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Ebbie Date: 23 May 10 - 10:58 AM 'Democrats, civil rights leaders, and a wave of commentators have gotten hoarse screaming at the tea party leaders to speak out against the party's unabashed bigots and the displays of racial hate. The pleas have fallen on deaf ears the tea party top. The simple reason is that it would cut its throat if it denounced its racists and racism, and really meant it. The shouts, taunts, spitting, catcalls, joker posters, N word slurs, Confederate and Texas Lone Star flag waving by tea party activists is and has been an indispensable political necessity for the movement. "Just as Chris Hightower about that. Paul for sure didn't." I Couldn't Believe it - but It's True |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 May 10 - 11:29 AM Why thank you Amos! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 10 - 09:09 AM The SEIU is a lot more dangerous than Rand Paul. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,kendall Date: 24 May 10 - 09:37 AM President Andrew Jackson also hated and distrusted the central bank. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 24 May 10 - 10:51 AM GfS said in part: "...both sides, in government ruled against the WILL of the PEOPLE!" 1)That would have to be documented VERY carefully instead of just rolled out as a slogan by someone who treats ANY government as a nuisance. 2) This "will of the people" phrase is a bit overused and misunderstood as a guide to how elected officials should make decisions. Of course our elected representatives should take into account, as best they can, the opinions of those who elected them, but not just blindly. They were also elected because they were trusted to study situations, in this full-time job, and understand better than the average voter what is needed and what is best for not only THEIR constituents, but for the country as a whole. There are areas in which they SHOULD vote mostly as the "will of the people" dictates, but there are also areas where "the people" have little idea what the situation is and what consequences might be. It is possible for the hoi polloi to have a collective opinion that is uninformed, prejudiced or just plain dangerous & wrong. Should a member of Congress vote to bomb Iran, just because he get a lot of letters asking him to? If the elected official(s) turn out to be dumb, unresponsive...and in the pay of some lobby, we have recourse at the next election. Sadly, too many government officials, both elected and appointed, forget...or ignore... a sane balance between paying attention to the populace and using their own best judgment.....but I'll tell you, *I* would rather struggle to keep THIS system patched and operating than to adopt some Libertarian or anarchist system that operates on some idea of 'controlled mob rule'. I do not want this country to even come close to having hot-headed "militias" controlling things. We DO have rules, procedures and institutions set up to deal with abuses...even abuses BY such things like the SEIU, **if** that is shown to be an abuse. Government will ALWAYS be frustrating and need tweaking & improvement, but 'society' in this era would fall apart without it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Amos Date: 24 May 10 - 10:57 AM Obstructionism is ugly stuff; hateful rhetorical noise is ugly stuff. Boorish assholery is a quite succinct summation of the worst the right wiong has to offer. But Q, this is not a label being applied to "conservatives" in the generic sense--those who believe in fiscal prudence, gradual improvement, an emphasis on individual and state rights. This is unfortunately being applied to the vandals and boors that the conservatives (under the neoconservative rubric) have activated and made their own. This shift in the meaning of the word conservative is the direct result of the Reagan legacy, the rise of mindlessness, the power-mongering of Bush, Rove, and their clan, and the arrogant petty demagoguery of Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Coulter and their ilk. While you may not be comfortable with this odor that has been unleashed among the conservative ranks, surely you can take a share of responsibility for the tactics that brought it about. And if you don't like the redefinition of the once-honorable word "conservative". consider what the jackals of Coulter's camp have done to the once proud label of "liberal", which she has redefined into something close to poltical leprosy. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Ebbie Date: 24 May 10 - 11:01 AM Tell me, Rig, do you object to unions? I agree that there was a time when unions abused the trust - and monies - held in them but if business had done its part, unions would not have been necessary in the first place. Today, this new union is securing better wages and working conditions for health care workers, janitors and other occupations that have traditionally lived with low pay, and therefore low respect. So, again, do you object to unions? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 24 May 10 - 11:02 AM Bill D: "Of course our elected representatives should take into account, as best they can, the opinions of those who elected them, but not just blindly. They were also elected because they were trusted to study situations, in this full-time job, and understand better than the average voter what is needed and what is best for not only THEIR constituents, but for the country as a whole." GfS:..and all of them swore an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution...yet, when they don't THEY are breaking the law of the land....wouldn't you agree? Both sides do it, and they only thing that differentiates the two major political parties, is which different parts of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they like to ignore, bend, or do away with. Other than that, they are just about the same! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: pdq Date: 24 May 10 - 11:07 AM Since Obama was elected, the United States federal government has spent $1.40 for every $1.00 it has taken in, and that includes money that is supposed to be reserved for Social Security. If this crap doesn't stop the United States will cease to be a prosperous country and join Greece (and others) whose economies have failed. The polls show 70% of the US public supports the Arizona law that attempts to reverse the illegal immigration eplosion. Obama says he will have Eric Holder file an injunction to stop the Arizona law, even though he has yet to read it! There we have two examples where the current administration is doing "their thing" while flipping off the vast majority of the citizens. That ain't demorcacy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Greg F. Date: 24 May 10 - 11:17 AM Since Obama was elected, the United States federal government has spent $1.40 for every $1.00 it has taken in..... And the expenditures of the BuShite administration were what? several times more than that for every dollar taken in. (Same with Saint Reagan) Some people's memories are conveniently selective. The polls show 70% of the US public supports the Arizona law... According to Glenn beck & PeeDee, that is........... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: beardedbruce Date: 24 May 10 - 11:21 AM But, PDQ, they know so much better than we do what we need and what is good for us. At least that is always true for the "Party in Power"- so the next Bush can now do what Obama is doing without fear of being brought to task. As Obama knows, precedent is everything in the law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Amos Date: 24 May 10 - 11:35 AM That's pretty rotten rhetoric, PDQ. Just as a hasty example: Of this overspending how much went to support Bush's two wars? How much toimplement the TARP program started under the Bush regime to cure the insane financial destruction wrought by Bush and Reagan fiscal policies? Your puerile black and white cartoons of reality do not balance and do not show the picture as she is. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Ebbie Date: 24 May 10 - 11:42 AM To hark back to early questions and prognostications, what would it, in your opinion, have taken to clean up the mess Bush left behind- if a Republican had taken office? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 10 - 12:11 PM "So, again, do you object to unions?" The unions to which I've belonged did very little for the rank and file members, but made sure the union management was very well taken care of. Now that I'm in management--business not union--I see the rank and file members always have to take a smaller parte of the pie, while the people who are supposed to be looking out for them still get their cut. But no, I do not object to unions. I think what we are seeing here is a result of what Reagan did to unions in the 1980's. The problem was, he couldn't do anything about public unions, so now public jobs pay more and provide better benefits than private ones, unless you're Lloyd Blankfein. I've been given to understand, however, that SEIU has a number of members who are lot legally in the country. That should not be allowed, and that's what makes them dangerous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 24 May 10 - 12:15 PM "...when they don't THEY are breaking the law of the land....wouldn't you agree? Both sides do it, " Agree to what? That they are, or that they shouldn't? You ask this abstract, generalized question as if there was a simple answer. You also phrase your critique as if YOU were the judge about how to interpret the Constitution. "Both sides" don't do 'it', whatever 'it' may be at the time, in the same way. My position, as if it wasn't already obvious, is that "strict constructionist" views in places like the 2nd amendment don't take into account 250 years of change in society. The Constitution is an amazing, well-designed document which has generally served us well, but conservatives are using its vaguer parts to obstruct and cling to 'rights' that the Founders never dreamed of. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but when THIS batch of conservatives...both in congress and on the court, creates and defends rules to favor business at the expense of the public interest, I see "breaking the law of the land" more as 'finding loopholes in the law of the land'....THAT'S what I mean by "both sides don't do it in the same way". I simply see no value in just ranting on with slogans like "both sides do it" and "less government is better government"....we NEED government, and blanket condemnations do little to get into the roots of the problem(s). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: pdq Date: 24 May 10 - 12:21 PM Although the SEIU has a large part of their membership in the relatively high-paying health care field, they also have a growing contingent drawn from janitors, dishwashers, and other service groups. The SEIU seems to be organizing the Mexican illegals in Las Vegas into a major part of their power base. Note: "International" in their name seems to mean that they are happy to break U.S. laws. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: katlaughing Date: 24 May 10 - 12:21 PM As usual, pdq, does not cite sources for the outrageous claims made. If you want to take the time to actually verify, or not, those claims, a good place to start might be HERE. And, if you want to study several polls, from different sources, one may Click Here. The first one is Fox, but there are several others over a month or so. Some very interesting numbers, esp. the number of folks who just didn't know enough about the AZ law to have an opinion. Joe, are you going to change the thread titles? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: pdq Date: 24 May 10 - 12:36 PM From the assistant-to-the-moderator-ette's own chosen poll: "Do you favor or oppose requiring people to show documents proving their immigration status if government officials have reasonable cause to ask for them?" 5/18-19/10 Favor Oppose Unsure 84 % 13 % 2 % "Do you favor or oppose allowing local and state police to detain anyone who cannot prove their immigration status?" 5/18-19/10 Favor Oppose Unsure 76% 19% 5% |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Greg F. Date: 24 May 10 - 12:49 PM ...so now public jobs pay more and provide better benefits than private ones... On what planet? The unions to which I've belonged did very little for the rank and file members My experience - and that of most of my acquaintances- has been quite the opposite, & were it not for the union folks would have been seriously screwed over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: katlaughing Date: 24 May 10 - 01:09 PM Cherry-picking is your usual style, pdq; that, and letting others do your research for you. Why don't you start posting your own cites? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 10 - 01:48 PM "...so now public jobs pay more and provide better benefits than private ones... 'On what planet?'" Greg - If public employees aren't doing better than most of the private employees you know, you live in a very different environment than I do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 10 - 01:49 PM In addition, union management who let illegals join a union ought to be treated the same way that employers are treated when they get caught hiring them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 24 May 10 - 05:33 PM Rigs, Visit a few "Right-to-Work" states (14b- Taft-Hartley Act) and see just how little has changed in the last 60 to 70 years for blue collar workers... I know... I live in one of those states and there are plenty of people working for federal minimum wages doing the exact same work that folks in union states are paid 2 to 3 times as much to do and, at the very least, aren't living in poverty... That's why if you check out the poverty levels in the various states you'll see a direct correlation between 14b states and poverty... Now if you think poverty is okay then maybe we can have that discussion... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bill D Date: 24 May 10 - 05:35 PM There is a wider gulf in the scope of 'private' employees these days.....too many better jobs shipped overseas have skewed the figures. (and 100...someone hasn't his send in the last minute) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 10 - 05:51 PM That's a good point, Bill. Oregon is a right-to-work state, Bobert, but the police Davis-Bacon and Prevailing Wage jobs pretty closely, so some industries pay a lot better than others for similar work. I bid on a job last week where part of the contract called for harvesting dead timber--killed by bark beattles--and part of it was road construction. It had two different wage structures. The road builders made almost twice as much as the loggers. The loggers' accident (read that death) rate is probably three or four times higher than the road builders. It ain't fair a'tall. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: DougR Date: 24 May 10 - 05:53 PM Joe Offer: You obviously were disturbed to read Bruce's title for this thread. I can't help but wonder, though, would you have been as disturbed had the thread title have been, "Bush's Brownshirts" while he was president? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 24 May 10 - 06:09 PM Tell me where the better jobs are in Oregon, Rigs... My son (aged 25) and daughter-in-law are both making minimum wage and happy to even have jobs... The problem, Dougie, about the term "brownshirts" is the genocide asscoaited with it... Bush??? Upwards of a million dead form his wars of choice... Obama??? Zero... Yeap, that's right... 1,000,000 to zero... Bush has earned his brownshirt... Obama??? Doesn't seem to have to entertain Redneck Nation with Shock 'n Awe... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 10 - 06:47 PM "Tell me where the better jobs are in Oregon, Rigs..." In the public sector! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 24 May 10 - 08:42 PM There are jobs in the public sector? With state, county and municipal governments slashing budgets and revenues falling everywhere? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 24 May 10 - 09:09 PM My son has been applying for the last three years... Nuthin' there... No jobs... No nuthin'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 10 - 09:25 PM I didn't say there were jobs, Bobert. I said those were the only jobs that paid. If you want jobs, you'd have to get the illegal immigrants out of the country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: ichMael Date: 24 May 10 - 09:39 PM Wikipedia, about the Nazi brownshirts. Interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung The brownshirts were killed off after they helped get Hitler into power. The closest parallel going on right now is the way Obama's killing off the Congressional Black Caucus: Rahm Emanuel's Secret War Against the Congressional Black Caucus Obama's Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel hates blacks. He's stripping the tenured black congressmen of their committee powers. These are the folks who helped Obama get elected. This is perhaps the closest analogy I've seen recently to the brownshirt scenario in Nazi Germany. And not a peep out of the media, the Democrats. Do you folks even KNOW this stuff is going on? And why are you so fixated on Repubs and Palin and Limbaugh as "racists" when you have Emanuel doing this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 24 May 10 - 09:44 PM Man, geeze oh pete, Rigs... You have really turned te corner here and crossed over to the dark side... This ain't about illegal immagrants, mah man... It's about the filthy rich not investing all that dough we gave them under Bush's tax cuts in jobs... Don't blame immigrant for the laziness we have seen from the monied class over the last 30 years... They are the problem... Not immigrants... You want jobs??? Take the tax cuts away from those lazy butt rich folks and just start you up a WPA or CCC... Take unemployment down to zipola... No, Rigs, you have missed a few days in school over the last 30 years... You have it all wrong... b~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Janie Date: 24 May 10 - 09:45 PM Jaysus, folks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 24 May 10 - 10:04 PM Ignore, itch, Janie... He's from the John KKK Birch Society... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 10 - 10:04 PM Okay, Bobert, without going any further into it, there are no jobs for young people. All I'm saying is, with the exception of a few lottery winners, the only jobs that pay here are public jobs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Janie Date: 24 May 10 - 10:27 PM Actually Bobert, I was expressing my reaction to the whole damned thread. Seems like most are interested in one or both of two goals: 1. Baiting 2. Being right or "scoring points." Typical of these threads, and a wonderful microcosm of what is paralyzing our political system. Hope everyone feels powerful and vindicated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 25 May 10 - 01:18 AM Rigs, you twist and turn even your own words. Bobert wanted to know where better jobs were to be had. There are no jobs to be had in the public sector. Therefore you were wrong. No, he didn't use the phrase "to be had" did he? Anybody with half a brain realized that is what he was on about, however. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 May 10 - 03:35 AM Guest from Sanity: "GfS:..and all of them swore an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution...yet, when they don't THEY are breaking the law of the land....wouldn't you agree? Both sides do it, and they only thing that differentiates the two major political parties, is which different parts of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they like to ignore, bend, or do away with. Other than that, they are just about the same!" Too hot of a potato to deal with??? Let's cut the bullshit: "Why would it seem so incorrect, to think that a government should regulate the amount of immigrants, coming in, when it might impact the country, as to jobs, crime and well-being of its OWN citizens?? Don't you think that a government owes its allegiance, to the citizens of their own country first?...especially when the government is suppose to be "We the People"?.....What gives a government power or right to rule AGAINST the will of "We the People?" Something must correct itself, wouldn't you say?? How far are these two entities going to oppose each other, without something 'popping'? Methinks it does not bode well." The truth is, the so-called libs CAN'T answer that question, without undermining there own position!!!!! ...Maybe instead of parroting the bogus premise, why not look at it REALISTICALLY for a change???...Remember when Bush was in office, how it was the Dems who were whining about 'W's' policy on the border. Now that we have a Dem president, they changed their tune!..Shit, you wouldn't do that while in the middle of a set would you??....in the middle of the tune??..without the other band members knowing it, would you??...Shit, maybe you would! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 May 10 - 07:35 AM "Rigs, you twist and turn even your own words. Bobert wanted to know where better jobs were to be had." I guess I misunderstood. There aren't any jobs to be had in the private sector either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 25 May 10 - 08:02 AM Well, no wonder my son can't find work... No jobs... Duhhhh???... lol... Not really... Ahhhhh, GfS... Libs don't much like either Bush's or Obama's policies in regards to immigration... However, it was Bush's idea that illegals should be able to have a "path to citizenship", a key component of what Bush was talking about... I don't think you'd find anywhere here or elsewhere where "libs" (whatever they are) were in disagreement... Actually, most of the folks I know on the left would loved to have seen Congress take up Bush's push fir immigration reform... It wasn't all that bad... Probably one of the more decent things that Bush ever tried to get done... The problem isn't Bush or Obama... It's the SCREAMERs, you know the vein poppin' Limbaughs and Becks who just won't allow Congress to take up the issue... That's reality... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,redhorse at work Date: 25 May 10 - 08:04 AM It's usually safe to assume that a thread has jumped the shark when when someone invokes Hitler or the Nazis. To achieve this in the title, let alone the first post shows an interesting talent nick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,kendall Date: 25 May 10 - 09:01 AM The democrats are claiming that the Obama administration has created more jobs in one year than Bush did in 8 years. They also claim that we have "Taken out" more terrorists in one year than Bush did in 8 years. Rhetoric? As a wise man once said, "Let's take a look at the record. Ronald, "The actor" left us with a 200 billion dollar deficit, after promising to balance the budget which he never did. Bush one left a 300 billion dollar deficit, was forced to rise taxes. Clinton left a projected surplus of over 200 billion. Bush two a 482 billion dollar deficit. There was no outcry from the right in any of these cases. Why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Greg F. Date: 25 May 10 - 10:18 AM 1. Idiocy? 2. Cupidity? 3. Mendacity? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 May 10 - 01:10 PM Whoever got the money probably doesn't want to squawk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: olddude Date: 25 May 10 - 01:29 PM well how about a happy song instead of fightin ? one of my favorites |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 May 10 - 01:47 PM olddude, Great idea! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 25 May 10 - 07:48 PM Well, Kendall, I say a graph chart recently and if showed the deficits over the last 40 years and it's amazing... When the Repubs are in the deficits go up and when the Dems are in they go down... Hmmmmmm???? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 May 10 - 09:35 PM Good piece, olddude. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 26 May 10 - 10:37 PM "It's usually safe to assume that a thread has jumped the shark when when someone invokes Hitler or the Nazis." And both sides do it, while Abe Foxman complains. Funny, ain't it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Janie Date: 26 May 10 - 11:24 PM Good on ya', Dan, and much more positive than my own grumpy comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Stringsinger Date: 27 May 10 - 09:40 PM The real "brownshirts" are found in the Pee Party. Their reactionary voices are close to the takeover of Germany. Remember that Hitler started out with just 2% of the people. They laughed at him and called him "shickelgruber" and the "wall hanger". He was considered a clown but then he got enough people to follow him. Are you listening Rand Paul? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 27 May 10 - 10:29 PM Good point, Strings... Who knows??? Fact is stranger than fiction and it is possible that the looney right could take over the country... That would be fun!!! 24/7 Nascar... 24/7 Country Music Awards... Lots of Bud... Harley's for everyone... Oh, of course death penality for any doctor performin' what used to be a legal procedure but, hey, nuthin' is perfect, is it??? Oh yeah, death penality for any man caught drenkin' Miller... That's womenz beer... And death penalty for gays, too... Ahhhh, Green Party folks, too... They gotta go... Etc... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Amos Date: 27 May 10 - 10:39 PM Frank: They called him Schicklegruber, I believe, because it was his original name, no? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 27 May 10 - 11:47 PM Hitler's father, Alois Schiklgruber was born out of wedlock to Marie Anna Schicklgruber who later married Johann Georg Heidler. Heidler was also variously spelled Hitler. I don't recall if Johann Georg was Alois' father, but he gave him his family name, thus he (Hitler's father) became Alois Heidler or Hitler. Alois' second marriage, to Klara Poelzl, resulted in six children, of which Adolf was the fourth. The British especially, ever so eager to make Der Führer appear ridiculous, traced his lineage and popularized the idea that his name should be Shicklgruber, a somewhat laughable name, even to the Germans. Source(s): Wm. Schirer, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 27 May 10 - 11:48 PM Gawd, no wonder he changed it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 28 May 10 - 12:03 AM I wouldn't want him grubing my schickl. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: LadyJean Date: 28 May 10 - 12:20 AM I made the mistake of watching Glenn Beck today. There he is, standing at his blackboard, playing college professor, cherry picking his facts. He speaks about the persecution of Germans in this country during WWI, which certainly happens, without mentioning the British propaganda about German atrocities in Belgium and France that fueled that persecution. Nor does he mention the Red Scare that followed, when the rights of citizens suspected of being Communists were cheerfully ignored. Then he points to the Obama blackboard, and something they have done and explains why it's like when the government interned Japanese during WWII, or when the Red Cross (Which is not a government agency.) banned German Americans from going to the front in W.W.I, when there is NOTHING like that going on in the Obama administration. Even worse, Mike Huckabee went to Las Vegas, to tell everyone how terrible it was that President Obama said bankers and brokers wouldn't be allowed to go to Vegas at the public expense. If I ever meet Governor Huckabee, I swear I'll kick him right in the pants! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 28 May 10 - 12:27 AM Why should anybody go to Vegas at the public expense? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Ebbie Date: 28 May 10 - 12:58 AM Just for the record, Mousethief, I think that should be 'Hiedler', not 'ei'. The pronunciation of Hiedler comes out as Hitler. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 28 May 10 - 03:04 AM I just cut and pasted that so I make no warranty as to spelling. Google Hitler Heidler and then Hitler Hiedler and decide for yourself. I'm not sure the pronunciation has anything to do with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 28 May 10 - 08:23 AM At least Glenn Beck is there to get the story out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 28 May 10 - 08:26 AM Exactly, Rigs... The "story"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: olddude Date: 28 May 10 - 08:26 AM Rand now I remember isn't he the guy that invented the "road map" with Mcnally or something like that :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 28 May 10 - 01:46 PM Actually, I think he was the guy who invented the air compressor with a guy named Ingersoll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 28 May 10 - 05:20 PM It's the guy who invented South African currency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 28 May 10 - 07:37 PM ""without mentioning the British propaganda about German atrocities in Belgium and France that fueled that persecution."" Presumably, by "British Propaganda", you mean the fact that nearly one hundred men of French resistance and the BEF, who had held up the leading SS division on its approach to Dunkirk, were packed into a local barn, and grenades thrown in among them. Few survived! Or maybe you are referring to the well documented actions of the Waffen SS, who tied unarmed POWs' hands behind them with baling wire, then shot them in the back of the head. Two survived! Or possibly the 50+ victims of the gestapo, following the "Great Escape", who were "shot trying to escape" (actually driven out into the countryside, let out of the trucks for a piss, and machine gunned to death. Try telling their wives and children about that "British Propaganda". The survivors provided the evidence of these actions which you dismiss as "Propaganda", and they can hardly bring themselves to talk about it seventy years on. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 28 May 10 - 07:58 PM Yeah, Don, and thank you for bringing the the discussion back into focus... When folks throw out the term "brownshirt" they are referring to folks who got the general population lathered up to commit acts that are inhumane... Somehow, regardless of the case that mentally ill Glen Beck tries to paint, Obma isn't bringing about the deaths in various populations... So "brownshirt really" isn't at all an appropriate analogy... However, in the mad dash to Iraq, I recall being harrassed by a number of Bushites in an aiti-war march in Washington, D.C... Iraq is the closesst thing to the genocide that Hitler and his folks committed and if we are looking at this from purely a historical perspective, it was those creeps who best fit the term "brownshirt"... And, of course, anyone who used up bandwidth, including some here in Mudville, who did purdy much the same... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: mousethief Date: 28 May 10 - 08:03 PM On the other hand, Browncoats are the coolest people in the 'verse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Greg F. Date: 28 May 10 - 08:42 PM Easy, Don, easy, boy - ya gots the wrong World War - LadyJean is talking about the First one (as she clearly indicates). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Bobert Date: 28 May 10 - 11:17 PM No matter... This thread is about Obama as having this blood-thirsty band of zombies who are ready and willin' to kill off whoever ***Obama*** says to kill off... Hey, ain't what the brownshirts did??? I mean, they were the "True Believers"... Seems ya' gotta have a guy like Hitler (or Bush) to elicit these kinds of feelings... I mean, we had one Bush draped in the flag after 9/11 after another and gotta a lot of Redneck Nation with lumps in their throats and reasdy to kill anything that moved in the name of ***AMERICA****!!! Especially if all they had to do is sit on their fuckin' sofas and guzzle Budweiser while switchin' between 24/7 Shock 'n Awe and 24/7 NASCAR racin'... Sheet fire, don't get no better than that... No, the real blood-thirsty folks were the Bush folks... Don't much matter if they were passed out in the double wide in front of the TV with a half finished Bud in front of 'um 'er the Lim/Beckers... Same difference... Upwards of a million people died in Iraq as a result of Bush and his supporters... That is what we used to call genocide... But it goes beyond Bush... It goes to his shills and his supporters... That genocide is also on yer hands... Not mine, that is fir sure... b~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Riginslinger Date: 29 May 10 - 08:51 AM The SEIU is a dangerous organization for a number of reasons, but the threat is more economic than physical. The leadership should be prosecuted for signing up illegal aliens. Why is organizing them any different than hiring them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts? From: Stringsinger Date: 29 May 10 - 04:11 PM Obama's Brownshirts? Labor unions are Brownshirts? What about the gun-toting yahoos at the Pee Party Rallies? You want fascism? Wait 'til these groups start their mayhem. You want danger? Whatever the SEIU does is tame compared to that. |
