Help: Personal Songbook question

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: JR
Date: 16 Aug 99 - 02:15 PM

As long as I see The Three Tenors and the Boston Philharmonic with music stands, I'm not going to feel bad about having that "insurance" during my occasioan coffee house gig.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Res
Date: 16 Aug 99 - 02:42 PM

Guess I don't have a solution, however, I may expand on the problem. Just what you need. I have all of my songs on computer, too, alpha indexed. I print them out and slide them into a top loading non-glare page protector. I am only up to 250 songs now, have them in a 4 inch "d-ring" binder and the sucker weighs just under 9 pounds. Try lugging that one around. All in all, it does work, but I wish there were a "lighter way". The page protectors are wonderful but contribute most of the 9 lbs I think. I'm looking for some strong paper too, I guess. Res

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Sep 99 - 06:27 PM

Bert, I've only just picked up on this. There is a plastics material used for geology field notebooks which is advertised as waterproof and tearproof, upon which one writes with pencil. I'm not sure what else works, as that would defeat the other point of being re-usable. (Not good science, that.)

We used to have some planning books in school with the holes punched too close to the edge. I used sellotape, then repunched, instead of ring reinforcements.

Penny

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 01 Sep 99 - 09:38 PM

Penny, What is that material and where can I buy some?

Bert.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: folk1234
Date: 01 Sep 99 - 10:13 PM

It's such a relief to see that others have the same problem. When you have poor eyesight, bifocals, weak memory, and built-in stage fright, which exacerbates all of the aforementioned, you gotta have something for a crutch! Mine, like others, is simply several 3-ringed note books and non-glare plastic document covers. I usually enter my songs, along with chords, in 14 pitch type so I can see in poor light conditions. At the bottom of each song I have a few lines (11 pitch) of info about the song, where I learned it, and who performs it best. Bulky, yes, but the added weight helps when out of doors. My note books are entitled "Want to Learn", "Learning", "Know", and "Song Swap" (I co-lead a song swap once a month).

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Les B
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 12:30 AM

folk 1234 - I would need to add to your categorys "Knew once, but have forgotten" !!

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 03:53 PM

Bert, that is where I cease to be helpful. I have only seen it made up into little field notebooks about octavo size (Definitely not A sequence). I have bought from a firm called Geo-Supplies in Sheffield, and seen them in a different form at Camborne School of Mines. I suspect that the material is not UK produced.

Penny

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 04:02 PM

Dammit Penny, I thought you had THE answer. Sounds just the stuff. Octavo would be too small tho' I have similar problems as '1234.

If you come across any more info, post it here.

Thanks,

Bert.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 04:12 PM

Bert, I've just tried to find a supplier, via the Web, who might know where the notebook suppliers get their stuff, but no luck. I thought there would be bound to be more suppliers over there than here, too. However, I am now reminded of some stuff we have in school which might work. Our supplies orderer made a mistake and got in some opaque photocopy plastics instead of OHP transparencies. I don't think it would take handwriting, but would certainly take copies. It may be like that Xerox nevertear stuff, though. And there are some specialist ink-jet papers which might be worth looking at.

Penny

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 07:02 PM

well, folks, you could always use a traditional way..looks strong..;>)

seriously..this page has a product called Ink Jet Glossy Film that says it will print on both sides and is tear-resistant

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From:
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 09:10 PM

As I said in my previous message, e-mail me, and I will forward the information about this paper, 20# weight, which has a reinforced edge. That may be a cost-effective form of paper which would take some of the abuse we users of 3 ring binders need..

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 03:14 PM

The manufacturers of the notebook are BCB International Ltd. Cardiff, CF2 2QS. Probably no help.

Penny

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: folk1234
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 03:24 PM

Dear Les B: How true, how true!

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Easy Rider
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 04:20 PM

It seems most people have a preference for keeping their song sheets in a three ring binder of some sort. I started one of these, in 1963, when I first started learning folk music. In those days, and even now, my sources were from all sorts of places and in all sorts of forms and sizes, printed, mimeographed, lyrics, lyrics and chords, printed or hand written tablature/music, etc. Some of it was on loose leaf school paper, some on yellow note pads.

Most of it is pretty yellow around the edges now, but I'm glad I saved that book. It helped me to relearn all the songs I used to play, when I started playing guitar again last Summer.

Now I usually photocopy the sheets I am working on, so they will lay flat on my music stand. I'm thinking of getting one of those alphabetical accordion folders, at STAPLES, and just putting all my song sheets in that. That way, I can just pull out a sheet and place it on the music stand, when I want to practice it. I don't perform, and I only need my song sheets for learning and practice, at home. At a song circle, I would only play a song that I know pretty well. Often others will know the words, and there is always "Rise Up Singing". "Now let's all turn to the top of page 169. 1, 2, 3, 4..."

EZR

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Poet
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 04:35 PM

Tiger, I started out as an unnacompanied singer and frequently suffered the ignomy of the total blank spot even in songs i knew well. the frantic antics required to remember the next line would often cause me to forget the tune and so on in ever decreasing circles a crutch somewhere handy is useful at such times.

Graham (Guernsey)

Subject: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Telle
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 04:02 PM

Hey... since this is the personal song book help... I was just curious as to if anuone might know where I can find a songbook titled "The Lion and The Cobra" (to her second album I think it is...) by Sinead O'Connor? If so I would appreciate it if you could email me at [e-mail] Thanx so much.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 05:56 PM

Lion and the Cobra was her first album (not that I have the songbook).
One solution no one has mentioned yet: buying a copy of "Rise Up Singing" and pasting over the songs with your own selections. Nice sturdy book, lots of pages. If that is too drastic for you, you could just paste over the Men's chapter, and a lot of the other dreary crud, and go from there -- lots of nice pages....(RUS -- Runs under shelter)....
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:59 PM

This was one of those really good threads that I'd forgotten about. Thought I'd refresh for those who've not seen it and to refresh my memory of it, too.

kat

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Fiddlin' Big Al
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:25 AM

I happen to be a fiddler AND a bookbinder too. There is no easy answer. A cheap and sleazy method would be to use a roll of clear packing tape to reinforce the punched or soon to be punched edge of the paper. Fold the tape over so it covers both sides. (Re)punch your holes. I like the computer based concept and printing out needed replacements. I've been playing in bands so long, doing only the same 8-10 songs as my contribution to the gig that Ive forgotten about the personal fake book. I've also gotta dig it back out of my archives and relearn a ton of what I used to know. I typed in on a manual typewriter about three centuries ago. All the binding methods mentioned in the thread above share the same problem -continued stress on paper in the looseleaf format every time you flip the pages. Hardbinding would eliminate that but sacrifice content flexibility in a still growing collection, but if your book is so thick already maybe hardbinding is the solution. The trick is to copy your collection onto 11x17 paper so it can be folded into signatures, sewn on a book sewing machine, trimmed and glued into a hard cover. This would be a permanent solution. Paper folds & unfolds much more nicely than it can be forced along the rings of a looseleaf or plastic comb binding. I am able to receive a computer based personal song collection by email attachment and produce it into a hardbound volume that would open up nicely and lay flat. No wear and tear on pages at the binding edge. I'll try it on my old book and get back to you. If anyone wants to try this my email is [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:52 AM

I've used Filofax binders and papers for some years now - smaller pages with six holes rather than three, which means less stress on each leaf. You can buy clear plastic protectors for the first and last pages, and pre-punched tabbed index pages which are thicker than the normal paper, adding yet more reinforcement. Another advantage of the Filofax system is that you can ping open the rings using the thumb tag at the top or bottom of the binder, allowing you to slip out a sheet or two for cribbing purposes on the hoof. And, should you fancy it, there are binders galore, ranging from mock croc to old boot leather and brushed aluminium. And no, I haven't got shares in the company!

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Mooh
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 09:52 AM

I still prefer a simple poor man's solution of Scotch taping the holes. I wrap a two inch strip of tape around the edge of the sheet at each hole so that it covers both sides of the sheet and then I repunch the sheet. I find the plastic covers too expensive (I'm a musician after all) and reflect light or shade the print too much. Since I never know where the songs will come from and don't like reprinting everything I get, I find this works pretty good. Each hole gets reinforced from both sides and it doesn't bulk up the binder too much.

One caution: make sure you've got a backup copy (I use photocopies) of everything in case of loss.

Poor boy Mooh.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Easy Rider
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 11:03 AM

I think this thread is only talking about keeping books of lyrics to songs, but what about the TAB for all those songs? What if you forget how to play something and need to go back to it and learn it again? There is nothing wrong with performing from sheet music, if you can sight play well enough. Lots of professional musicians do it. The question is how to store all that music, so you can find it when you need it.

In 1963-1966, I kept a loose-leaf book of all the TABs, written in pencil, to the songs I was learning, with mimeo sheets stuffed into the pockets of the binder. Boy, am I lucky I kept that book all these years! When I took up the guitar again, two Summers ago, I was able to go back to those lesson sheets and learn my old songs all over again, starting with "Freight Train". My advice, to everyone, is write down the TAB/Music to every song you learn, and keep it somewhere safe. If I could only remember how to play "Bad Dream Blues", I would be a happier man today, but, alas, I didn't write it down!

Now I collect TAB/Music from all kinds of sources, online, lesson books and videos, printed books, copies from other people, and even stuff I write out myself. I am trying to write down everything that I play, so I can go back to it, if I forget how to play it. Nowadays, I use TablEdit to write down TAB/Music and store it in the computer, but I'm NOT going to type in all that other stuff I have in books and booklets and single sheets of paper! I'd rather spend the time practicing the guitar!

I keep the bound books and booklets on a shelf, and make photocopies of the songs I'm learning, to put on my music stand or carry in my guitar case, dating them to indicate when I started learning them. When I am done with the TAB, I put it in one of those accordian files, alphabetized by song title. This way I keep the songs I know in one place and the ones I don't know in another. When the accordian file starts to bulge, I may have to get a file cabinet! I will also consider myself lucky to be able to play so many songs!

Then the question arises, how to find the TAB for a song or even know if you have it or not. Did you ever buy a CD and then get home and find that you already had that one? My solution, for my record collection was to design a Microsoft Access database, with lots of relational cross references. I can easily find all the versions of a particular song or all the songs by a particular artist or author, with just a couple of keystrokes. I think I'll add a lyrics table to the database. I can type in the lyrics, as I find them, or just a reference to the book or folder they are in.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Dai
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:00 PM

Try TYVEK, available from a builder's supply. This is the material they made the sleeves for 5 1/4 disks out of - you can cut it but you CAN'T tear it. Once you have cut it to size and typed/written the notes on the page you can punch it to fit in your binder.

Dave

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:14 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 11:32 AM

This may be overkill, but have you considered a hand held or notebook computer to keep your songs in? A friend of mine with a gazillion different passwords keeps them on her Palm.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From:
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 12:06 PM

It's been mentioned. Someone mentioned laptops, but some of use the Pailm Pilot to keep them handy.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Les B
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 03:02 PM

My, how all things in time do change. Since my above posting, back in '99, I have dumped the 3-ring binders and gotten a metal file drawer. In it I have an alphabetized section for all songs A-Z, and then, when pertinent, I duplicate those songs and put them into special sections like "Cowboy," "Civil War," "Gold Rush," "Minstrel," etc.

I've given up on fancy set list organizing paraphernalia -when our group does a set list we all write down what each of us wants to do on a slip of paper, give it to that gig's designated "set list guru" (a job which rotates), and they organize them and type them up.

I still feel the same, however, about singing from paper. Don't do it unless it's a last resort.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 08:43 PM

The subject has been properly flagellated, but perhaps a few "summary" observations would not be out of order.

Always keep an archive of clean "originals" in a safe place. No matter how you carry them around, they will wear out, someone will spill beer (or worse) on them, they'll fall on the floor next to the leaky oil can in the back seat - or something. Make it easy to replace your portabe book.

The point should be emphasised, for those who use 3-rings, that "D" Ring binders are much easier on the holes than the standard round rings. They cost marginally more, and may be a little more difficult to find, but round rings are IMHO useless over 1-inch.

If you use any "Xerographic" print method, like laser or copy machine, always put a blank sheet with no printing front and back in the notebook, since the printed type otherwise will "grow itself" onto the front/back covers. Cardstock sheets used here also will help keep the adjacent sheets from hanging up in the ring mounts.

If you use plastic sleeves, consider them a "laminate" for the same reason. Anything left in a sleeve for more than a brief time will probably "self destruct" if you try to remove it.

Plastic sleeves come in two main types. The most common are a sleeve you can fit the page into, with holes on a separate "margin" strip. This has the advantage that you don't need holes in the printed sheet; but the edges are usually more flexible than the rest of the sheet, which lets the pages "sag." They also require a "wider" binder. You can also get the type that are "page size" with slots that line up with the holes punched in the paper itself. Suit yourself.

Hole reinforcements have been mentioned. The common kind are "lick-and-stick" and will fall off in fairly short order. You can also get them with "pressure sensitive adhesive" (sometimes called "self-sticking,") which will last a little longer, but will eventually fall of when the adhesive starts to shrink - or will stick to the adjacent page when they get "gummy."

Alternate bindings are something you have to plan ahead for, and you have to make decisions about what to bind, and such. If you can do that much planning, you can probably figure out a way to carry a much smaller portion of your library around. A "permanent" binding on your "archive" generally will make it much more difficult to make working copies when you need them.

Computer methods are becoming more common, but the tendency is to "take everything," just because you can. Give some thought to whether energy used making the "best possible notebook" is detracting from the energy you could use to make music.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From:
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 09:22 PM

I served my time with the standard collection of three-hole ring binders and got into the standard mess of loose (torn ring-hole) sheets.

This was pre-computer of course. Why does everyone go to such lenghths to preserve what is instantly replaceable with new at the cost of a couple of seconds printing?

I have found that there is available an assortment of plactic folders that will hold around three hundred sheets of A4.

I doctor the folders so that the sheets stand upright in them, with the top edges clear so that they can be riffled through, and as they are loose sheets they can be kept alphabetical with no trouble at all.

Enquiries after a particular song are answered with "just take this copy"

Jack

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 10:37 PM

My personal songbook has been a laptop for several years now. This approach is very slowly becoming more common amongst the people I sing with. At some sessions there might be five or six laptops. Most simply have copies of my own songbook file. A friend now has my file plus his own. One person uses a palm, but the screen is too small for these old eyes.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Les B
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 12:56 AM

Guest Russ - So what do you do if your laptop goes down? A couple of years ago, at work, I had a list of 300 distributors I needed to contact weekly on my standard office computer.

Because of some malfunction in the network, my computer was knocked for a loop and I couldn't access anything for ten days. I frantically scurried around re-assembling a new list from addresses in old industry magazines, etc. You can bet I now have a paper copy and rolladex cards to back up the electronic files !!

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 04:57 AM

That's what backups are for! Dull, important stuff like work I don't bother - I leave it to the network gurus, but the valuable stuff like music, that's another matter!

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 04:58 AM

UNimportant, I meant, UNimportant.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 05:23 AM

I like laminates. I can put my beer down on one with impunity!

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 07:51 AM

I used a Psion for a while, until the piss-taking got too much (and someone dropped it into a ot of cassoulet around a camp fire - it survived, but smelled might strange afterwards).
The problem with 'leccy things like laptops and PDAs is that they need power, and the text is usually difficult to read unless the screen is up at 45 degrees and the font is enlarged to Autocue size - and that seems pretty antisocial in a social session for my liking.
Unless they have solid-state media (like the Psion or the Palm), they're also pretty vulnerable to bangs - as I know from bitter experience when I dropped a PowerBook with the hard disk spinning and wiped out several chunks of the media as the heads ploughed into the disk. They may be tough, but not that tough!
Dick Greenhaus has a nifty little gadget, though - halfway in size between a laptop and a Psion, with a full colour screen and the whole DigiTrad on it.
I'll stick with the Filofax, though - it fits in the pocket and can be dropped, slept on, used as a doorstop, scribbled over and the leather smells better with a liberal application of decent bitter. And it costs a darned sight less than a laptop.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 03:27 PM

Now if they would just put a Casio keyboard or guitar neck on those laptops then you'd have something :~}!

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 03:47 PM

Les B,
When the laptop goes down I know enough songs from memory that I can pull my weight in a song circle. I just happen to love a lot more songs than I can remember.

Even if the hard drive dies, I've got so many backups in so many different locations that I wouldn't miss a beat.

Gervase,
You put your finger on the real problem, power. A laptop is not the best choice for a campfire setting or the Halliehurst porch at Augusta no matter what the claimed battery life is. And laptops are indeed fragile. My songbook laptop is an old cheap "junker" that I bought to use only for that one purpose. I chose it specifically with the thought that if somebody stepped on it in the dark or it got dropped in the cassoulet (you're kidding!) it would not be a significant loss. I position the laptop low so that it does not block anybody's view of me. I assume that some people wish I wish position it higher.

A friend uses a Palm Pilot to store words, but the screen is just too small to be useful for these old eyes. Another uses a Palm o store tunes.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 04:01 PM

By the way,

To state the obvious,

It would be useful to keep in mind one key fact:
whether it be a sheaf of papers or a floppy disk, a songbook fulfills a perceived need on the part of the person who uses it. You might not have that need, but that doesn't make the need any less real to that person. Yes, a songbook is a crutch, but in the real world people need crutches (and wheelchairs, and portable respirators).

My favorite response to my laptop:
I have a friend who is a great musician and knows a million songs from memory. The first time I ever took my laptop to a party at his house, he looked at me quizzically as I set it up. "What's that for?" he asked. I explained. I could see him switch to his lecturer mode. "There are," he began, "lots of things one can do to deal with such memory issues." But then he paused, looked very thoughtful, and finally said, "but that's exactly what you are doing, isn't it." And that was the end of the matter.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 04:25 PM

But how do you balance a laptop on one knee while you're playing guitar in a song circle? At least, with a notebook, you can flop it over that knee, or remove the page with the song on it and put that paper on your knee.
some (perhaps even "many") of those songs comes in handy sometimes.

For instance, I often put a flexible plastic 3-ring binder (with some songs inside) into the neck section of the soft case (gig bag) for my guitar, behind the guitar's neck. That way, I have enough music on hand for some pre-planned activities without lugging around a laptop. Mind you, if I'm attending a jamming party, I will lug along a tote bag with several notebooks and songbooks, just in case!

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 09:43 AM

SharonA,

Whenever I take the laptop someplace I also take a small Lafuma camp chair. If I don't raise the chairback it makes a perfect, highly portable, tiny computer stand. I can see the screen because I normally sit while I am playing.

Also, the laptop doesn't go everywhere. It does not work well in the great outdoors. In daylight the display on the screen is essentially invisible. After dark battery life becomes an issue since very few campsites at old time music festivals in the US have electrical outlets. Since the laptop is far from being current state of the art, I cannot rely on batteries for any length of time. Also there is more chance of accidents outside.

Power is not an issue if you are playing indoors. There's usually a conveniently located outlet.

Basically, a laptop is great in certain situations but because of current technological limitations it doesn't work everywhere. I am not so completely dependent upon it that I cannot function without it.

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 11:16 AM

It seems it's still necessary for us to find our own "best practices" for preserving (and making portable) our music and notes. Quite a few good suggestions above for different things one can do.

The original question was a request for a more durable paper - and after 5 years (this thread started in 1999) I may have found something that will be helpful for some.

I have looked for/at most of the suggested "papers," and found none that were available and/or were really "good" answers, but a fairly new product has appeared that may work for some.

PPG came up with a new "paper" called TESLIN®, apparently about a year ago. So far, the only commercial source I've found is National Geographic. They sell it as "Adventure Paper," and it is available from Amazon and possibly a few other retail sources. You can also get it through/from a number of "outing/mountaineering" clubs, or from a number of printing supply places. The definitive application for this media is for printing maps, and once the ink is dry it is claimed to be waterproof and rugged enough to wad up in a hip pocket in the field.

The Adventure Paper is an "all plastic" but with a very "paper" feel. It is bright white and can be printed in ink jet printers, and marked with pencil or ballpoint etc. About the only limitation is that it is NOT recommended for use in Laser printers. It appears to be quite "tear resistant," and can be easily punched, folded/creased or wadded up without coming apart.

A couple of test inkjet prints I've made on my small sample show better image quality than on standard paper, approaching very closely what you get with inkjet on semigloss photo paper. With artworks printed on both sides of a page, there is no visible "show through," indicating opacity much higher than on typical printer paper (and even better than some "2-sided" photo paper). Sheet thickness is comparable to normal (US) 20# printer paper, and it feeds nicely through the printer.

I haven't tried the "spilled beer" test yet, but do intend to put a couple of samples outside for our coming spring rainy season to see if the stuff is really waterproof. More on that later, perhaps.

With a list price of $19.95 (US) for 25 sheets 8.5x11 inch, or the same price for 10 sheets 11x17 inch, the price is about the same as what I usually pay for inkjet photo papers - not cheap by any means, but "tolerable" if reserved for situations that need it. Amazon currently knocks a couple of dollars off on the 8.5x11 A size, but no discount on the B size. (I haven't seen a source offering metric sheet sizes.)

I did identify an apparently similar "map paper" available in the UK, but have been unable to find any US source. Specifications I've found for this UK product are pretty limited, so I don't really know how similar it is. Most other durable and printable media are either twice the price, or more (and often with $200 minimum order), are coated products printable only on one side, or require extra (and expensive) finishing processes such as lamination or lacquering.

One source that gives a "typical" pitch on what's available in "durable" media is at waterproof-paper. There are several other places with somewhat similar specialty media, but this one gives a good summary for the kinds that are available and that might be useful to 'catters. At least one of the "papers" shown here is laser printable, if that's your need. They describe the Adventure Paper, which is inkjet only, one that is laser only, and one that can be used in both.

Several people have suggested Tyvex® from the lumber yard. The materials I've been able to find in my local market are not something I'd try to run through my printer even if I could get "page size" sheets cut uniformly enough to go through. Most of the "construction grade" sheet I've found would be very difficult to write on, even with a "Chinese brush." I infer from comments here that different materials are more commonly available elsewhere. For comparison, one source lists printable Tyvex® at 8.5 x 11, 50 sheets, $103.50. Other sources I've found quote around $3.67 per sheet.

My "product experience" with this stuff is pretty limited, but it appears to be something that may be of interest for some peoples' "special needs."

John

Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From:
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:35 PM

Awesome! Thanks John for some great ideas. Will check them out.