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Help: Personal Songbook question

Bert 12 Aug 99 - 03:49 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 12 Aug 99 - 04:39 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 04:46 PM
Bat Goddess 12 Aug 99 - 04:51 PM
Bert 12 Aug 99 - 05:05 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 05:07 PM
Margo 12 Aug 99 - 05:08 PM
Bob Landry 12 Aug 99 - 05:12 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 05:13 PM
Chet W. 12 Aug 99 - 05:16 PM
Jeri 12 Aug 99 - 05:18 PM
Bert 12 Aug 99 - 05:28 PM
dick greenhaus 12 Aug 99 - 05:31 PM
Tiger 12 Aug 99 - 05:43 PM
Peter T. 12 Aug 99 - 05:48 PM
Jack (who is called Jack) 12 Aug 99 - 06:04 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 06:34 PM
Bill D 12 Aug 99 - 06:36 PM
Mudjack 12 Aug 99 - 06:54 PM
Mudjack 12 Aug 99 - 06:57 PM
Chet W. 12 Aug 99 - 07:22 PM
katlaughing 12 Aug 99 - 07:23 PM
Bill D 12 Aug 99 - 07:54 PM
Susan of DT 12 Aug 99 - 08:01 PM
SeanM 12 Aug 99 - 08:14 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 08:59 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 09:03 PM
katlaughing 12 Aug 99 - 10:14 PM
Bat Goddess 13 Aug 99 - 08:00 AM
Susan of DT 13 Aug 99 - 09:43 AM
Dave Swan 13 Aug 99 - 11:34 AM
Jack (who is called Jack) 13 Aug 99 - 01:03 PM
Allan C. 13 Aug 99 - 04:23 PM
Hasek 13 Aug 99 - 04:29 PM
Dave Swan 13 Aug 99 - 05:51 PM
Dave Swan 13 Aug 99 - 06:49 PM
karen k 14 Aug 99 - 05:13 AM
mountain tyme 14 Aug 99 - 05:46 AM
Tiger 14 Aug 99 - 07:27 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 14 Aug 99 - 07:44 AM
Bill D 14 Aug 99 - 12:37 PM
Tiger 14 Aug 99 - 01:29 PM
Bill D 14 Aug 99 - 04:41 PM
Les B 14 Aug 99 - 06:04 PM
Susan A-R 14 Aug 99 - 10:15 PM
Tiger 15 Aug 99 - 07:10 AM
sail 15 Aug 99 - 08:42 PM
Allan C. 16 Aug 99 - 08:52 AM
KingBrilliant 16 Aug 99 - 09:41 AM
Bert 16 Aug 99 - 01:37 PM
JR 16 Aug 99 - 02:15 PM
Res 16 Aug 99 - 02:42 PM
Penny S. 01 Sep 99 - 06:27 PM
Bert 01 Sep 99 - 09:38 PM
folk1234 01 Sep 99 - 10:13 PM
Les B 02 Sep 99 - 12:30 AM
Penny S. 02 Sep 99 - 03:53 PM
Bert 02 Sep 99 - 04:02 PM
Penny S. 02 Sep 99 - 04:12 PM
Bill D 02 Sep 99 - 07:02 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 02 Sep 99 - 09:10 PM
Penny S. 03 Sep 99 - 03:14 PM
folk1234 03 Sep 99 - 03:24 PM
Easy Rider 03 Sep 99 - 04:20 PM
Poet 04 Sep 99 - 04:35 PM
Telle 05 Sep 99 - 04:02 PM
Peter T. 05 Sep 99 - 05:56 PM
katlaughing 06 Jun 00 - 11:59 PM
Fiddlin' Big Al 07 Jun 00 - 02:25 AM
Gervase 07 Jun 00 - 05:52 AM
Mooh 07 Jun 00 - 09:52 AM
Easy Rider 07 Jun 00 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Dai 07 Jun 00 - 12:00 PM
katlaughing 13 Apr 02 - 05:14 PM
mack/misophist 14 Apr 02 - 11:32 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 14 Apr 02 - 12:06 PM
Les B 14 Apr 02 - 03:02 PM
JohnInKansas 14 Apr 02 - 08:43 PM
jacko@nz 14 Apr 02 - 09:22 PM
GUEST,Russ 14 Apr 02 - 10:37 PM
Les B 15 Apr 02 - 12:56 AM
DMcG 15 Apr 02 - 04:57 AM
DMcG 15 Apr 02 - 04:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Apr 02 - 05:23 AM
Gervase 15 Apr 02 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Les B. 15 Apr 02 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,Russ 15 Apr 02 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Russ 15 Apr 02 - 04:01 PM
SharonA 15 Apr 02 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Russ 16 Apr 02 - 09:43 AM
JohnInKansas 05 Apr 04 - 11:16 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 05 Apr 04 - 04:35 PM
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Subject: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 03:49 PM

I carry around this three ring binder with all the songs that I've stolen. However, it is getting too fat, also the holes tear out of the pages. What I'm looking for is some very thin very strong paper (Mylar?) for the pages.

Has anyone out there solved this problem.

It doesn't matter if it's more expensive as long as it lasts longer.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 04:39 PM

What about those neat-o clear plastic pockets with the three holes along one side that are used in business presentations and by teacher's pets for their snazzy reports? We have them here at Staples and they come in bulk!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 04:46 PM

There are many brands available. Give your local print shop a call. They can probably sell you a small quantity of what you want. If you ask, they'll even 3-hole punch it for you. Be sure you tell them that you want to be able to write on it. I say that because Xerox has something they call Nevertear which is made of stuff which will not accept pencil and regular ball-point ink will smear. You can only write on it with markers. It is probably more expensive than some of the other stuff out there. I will check with a couple of my friends in the business and see if they can jog my memory about one kind of paper in particular I used to use.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 04:51 PM

While you're at your local printer, ask about three hole drilled paper with reinforced edge (along the holes). Your printer/copy shop probably sells it by the ream. Of course, this still bulks up your binder edge -- maybe you need a bigger binder, too.

Linn the Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:05 PM

Animaterra, I tried those pockets but they were too bulky.
Linn the BG, I also tried the reinforced paper, same problem.
Allan, Thanks, I'll take a look at a local print shop or two.

Thanks everyone. Anyone else??

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:07 PM

If you don't have any luck elsewhere, try here


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Margo
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:08 PM

Bert, I'm glad someone has answered your question because I really didn't know what to say.

For my daughter's teaching, we bought a laminating machine. I think we bought a $90.00 machine. The laminating sheets aren't cheap, they're something like $25.00 per hundred sheets. It's expensive up front, BUT if you are interested in something that will last virtually forever, laminating might be good. You can punch holes in the laminated sheets too.

Downside: you'd have to use wet erase markers to make notes to yourself on the music.

Anyway, you can have a sheet or two laminated at a print shop and see how you like it before making such an investment.

Margarita, always hoping to help somehow


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bob Landry
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:12 PM

My solution was to type all the lyrics from my "A" binder into a word processor. I format them in as large a print as possible so I can read them in low light situations where my bi-focals ain't worth a damn. If the paper tears, I just print a new one using standard 15-pound paper. If somebody asks for the lyrics to a song, I'll give them my copy and reprint it when I get home. If your binder is as crammed as mine, make sure you keep a list of the lyrics you give away so you don't forget to replace them.

Bob


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:13 PM

Here!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Chet W.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:16 PM

Bert, I found it impossible after awhile to keep just one songbook. I have three levels of storage (other than the computer), 1, a filing cabinet, 2, a little paperboard briefcase-looking thing divided into 26 pockets (about $9.00 at Staples) for songs that I'm thinking about working on, and 3, a binder using the 3-hole plastic pockets for songs that I am working on or that I think I need a copy of with me for performing or whatever. There's too many songs for one book!

Chet


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:18 PM

Bert, you can print double-sided if you already haven't, and use the heavier paper.
You can make the type smaller and fit more than one song on a page.
Someone already mentioned getting a bigger binder.
Split up the songs into two volumes.
You can reinforce thin paper with Scotch tape along the edges with the holes - put the tape on before you punch them. I used to do this all the time with stuff falling out of medical records.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:28 PM

Thanks Allan, I'll call them in the morning.

I have a bigger binder but prefer a smaller one. Tried reducing the type but couldn't read it, (like Rise Up Singing)

Of course I have several volumes but like to keep one of stuff I am currently singing.

I'm working on printing on both sides Got about halfway through my book at the moment.

I'm picky aren't I. Keep the suggestions coming guys.

Thanks again, Bert


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:31 PM

Well, Susan of DT has a neat little 3-1/2 pound notebook computer that holds the entire DT and is a lot lighter and easier to carry than her notebooks (which contain many, many fewer songs.)


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Tiger
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:43 PM

Bob and Chet are on the right trail. I tried the no-tear sheets, and they were great, but kind of expensive, because of of how often I make changes.

I have 4 binders with about 200 sheets each, and I'm updating them, giving them away, all the time. Them I just reprint them.

If you were doing a gig and, heaven forbid, didn't know the words, you could then remove the sheets and stick them into those vinyl sheet protectors in a small binder.

I have software that prints me a 1-column gig sheet of my selected songs, gicing a shorthand title and my chosen key.

.....Tiger


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:48 PM

Bert, India paper is the answer, but I have no idea if anyone makes it anymore.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 06:04 PM

This may be a suggestion from left field, but is sounds like the problem is that the punch holes tear out because all the force from turning the page gets applied at the ring hole which isn't that strong, even with reinforcement, especially when the book is over-filled.

Perhaps what you need to do is look into a different kind of binding technique, and drop the 3-ring approach altogther. I don't know what its called, but there's the method that has the row of rectangular holes in the page and a plastic piece with lots of rings threaded in the whole length of the back (Professors notes printed up by Kinko's often come this way). There's also spiral binding. You could even go so far as to have a book made, or a set of them. I'm sure Kinko's or someone at the local library knows who does binding work.

Of course these are more permanent and less amenable to the adding and subtracting of pages as desired.

On the other hand, you could have a more permanently bound and durable 'Core' book of songs, and then use the 3-ring for collecting new songs. After a while you could recompile an updated core book and have rebound.

Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 06:34 PM

Velobind, is the first binding, GBC (spiral) binding are real pains to deal with. Bert, if you re-e-e-aly want 'em spiral bound, ship them to me and I will do it for you. But as Jack (who is called Jack) mentions, either style is probably a lot more permanant than you would want. Velobinding is a solid bitch to deal with and won't lay flat when the book is opened. Spiral binding lays flat, but you pretty much have to have access to a binding machine to add more pages. I think you are on the right track with that specialty paper. By the way, I inserted tabs in my notebooks to help me find my way around. My tabs are currently alphabetical but I am thinking about putting the songs in categories like LULLABYS, CRIMES, PROTESTS, KID SONGS, GIG SHEETS, etc. (something Susan of DT got me to thinking about).


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 06:36 PM

well,I am not much help for Bert, because I keep a lot of my files 'loose'...(yes..it IS a big mess..*grin*) but I am working on printing and binding them...and since I love having a small, inconspicuous notebook, I am using a little freeware program called WinPrint (WINPRN.exe) it will print your file in standard format, 2 pages to a sheet, or 4 pages to a sheet, using scalable true-type fonts...the type IS small, but I can make out the half-size fine, and can use the ¼ size if I want the page REALLY tiny...(like to slip into a shirt pocket)...my book will be ½ size so it will fit into bags & such I carry around...for those who'd like to look at the program (and CAN read smaller type), it can be found at WINPRN...down at the bottom of the page It was originally published in PC Magazine...written by one of their editors..

Looks like Bert has lots of suggestions that might help HIM...


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Mudjack
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 06:54 PM

The plastic sheet protectors work best for me, especially when re-sorting or adding songs to the book. To bulky was not a problem, but a blessing in that it caused me to size down my song book(s). It also allows me to have three books, I have yet to need to take all three with me. They are catagorized by style and usually manage reguardless which I take with me.One of the books is my original hand written selections I hav'nt yet put into the PC.
For my preference, I like having three smaller books than carrying a giant. The whole of it is, I'm more organized now than ever in the past.The age of computers has been the largest contributing factor. It's nice to see how we all manage our little lives with sharing information of great importance. We all seem to agree how important our song libraries are.
Mudjack


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Mudjack
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 06:57 PM

Bert,
We don't steal songs.......We promote songs......
Mj


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Chet W.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 07:22 PM

Seriously, I'd be careful about taking such things to Kinko's for binding unless you know somebody there. Around here they seem to be the most intolerant copyright watchers of them all.

Chet


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 07:23 PM

I put my songs on the computer, in the WP program; then I choose to have 2 columns, when I go to print, I choose "landscape" which will print 11" X 8", or horizontal. That way I get two songs to a page, cut it in half with the paper cutter, and can carry them around, with holes punched, in a handy-sized 7" X 9" 3 ring binder. Also, I know they are a pain in the arse, but have you tried putting those little, gummy, hole-reinforcers on the punched holes? They really do help.

Let us know what you find about about papers, okay?

luvya,

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 07:54 PM

Kat...that is essentially what I am doing with the freeware thing..yours is probably more efficient, but I don't use a major WP...


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Susan of DT
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 08:01 PM

I have been thru just about all of these ways since I started compiling songs in 1967 and the Digital Tradition became the answer for the large collection. I started with small spiral bound books and filled three of them and then the covers started coming off. At the same time I was in a few groups that sent monthly songsheets in their newsletters, so I started a 3 ring binder with songsheets, photocopies, and few typed (before the days of computers). Then I tried reinforcements on the pages. Then I tried plastic sheet protectors.

And then I saw Dennis Cook's 3 ring binder that was all full of computer generated pages and immediately saw that that was the answer. Dick did some thinking and programming and the Digital Tradition was born. I still have a problem with the songs I want to carry with me to sings. At some point this was a 3 ring binder and, like Bob Landry above, would give out the copy of the song to anyone who wanted it and note to reprint the page. I am not convinced that it is acceptable to sing from a computer. My current tiny subnotebook computer has a rotten battery, so I cannot really use it unplugged. In 1993 I printed out a subset of the DT to carry around and in 1995 I printed out all of our versions of Child ballads. I put these into docubind spiral combs, but the combs disintegrate after a while and the covers fray at the combs. But now that there are almost 8000 songs to review to select a subset I want to sing, I have put off the job of selecting the songs to print for a couple of years.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 08:14 PM

If you do want to keep the original format, there used to be (and probably still are) little plastic discs that can be put on the paper as a reinforcement (they surround the hole). This will take *just* this side of forever to get done, and are a temporary fix at best...

I personally support the idea of going to multiple volumes. Another thing that I do is keep them all on my computer, with multiple back up copies on disc.

In any case, multiple volumes might be the way to go. I'm moderately anal retentive and have not only split the volume, but have it on disc alphebetized with a table of contents...

Good luck.

M


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 08:59 PM

Chet W., you'd be on your toes too if you had shucked out over two hundred thousand (not including court fees, etc.) on a lawsuit like Kinko's did in 1988. All of us in the copy and print business are pretty wary about the copyright issues.

SeanM, those little reinforcement discs (at least all I ever used) become unglued after a few months or even less if exposed to a lot of humidity. Also, they add considerable thickness to the stuff you are binding in the very place that you would want to reduce it.

As to suggestions having to do with actually using a notebook while performing - personally, I am aghast at the very notion! I would never (unless inebriated) attempt to perform a song that I didn't know SOLID. Admittedly, I use some small memory-jogging notes taped to my guitar. But, generally when I screw up a song, it is beyond redemption and I usually think of something else to do.

Besides, even having the sheet music sitting right in front of me appears to do me no good at all. I sang "Evergreen" at a wedding once and created two rather novel verses toward the end of the song. I had looked up at the bride and groom at a poignant part of the song and when I looked back at the music, I could not find my place. So what else is there to do? I faked it. Only the diehard Streisland fans noticed anything was amiss. (Unfortunately, one happened to be my wife at that time who did her best [for YEARS!] to help me to remember this incident in vivid detail.)


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 09:03 PM

Spelling correction. I meant Streisand (as in Barbara), not Streisland.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 10:14 PM

Well, as one of those who enjoys singing very much, doen't do it professionally, and hasn't a lot of time to put into memorising, I use a book to sing from and make no apologies. Some of us are come late to this genre, having learned others along the way or in foolish youth embracing such things as rock and roll!**BG**

Maybe with more practise and somewhere to actually get together with people and sing, I'd feel differently. Ah....life on the Lone Prairie.

katlaughing&piningaway


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 08:00 AM

The plastic comb binding (where pages can be replaced) is GBC.

I have all my versions/transcriptions of songs that I do, wish I did, think I might want to do, etc. in electronic version and archive these printouts in 3-ring binders. I have a separate folder for stuff I'm working on, and sometimes (often) run out songs to learn or refresh my memory of at work in between jobs. (My boss didn't hear me say that, did he? The people at work seem to cope well with my singing odd songs at strange times.)

Ah well, it's Friday and there's a session and a black and tan in my future at The Press Room.

Linn the Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Susan of DT
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 09:43 AM

All you guys with songbooks - if any of your songs are not in the DT, PLEASE send them in. You can post them or e-mail them to us (ASCII text is fine).
digitrad@world.std.com or digitrad2@sprintmail.com


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Dave Swan
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 11:34 AM

Bert, A low-tech answer is biology paper, which is easy to find and fairly inexpensive. Available in three hole punch 8 1/2 x 11, its holes last forever and the corners resist becoming dogeared. Some laser printers will accept it if fed a page at a time. I've been using it since college to mount pages of smaller format or lighter weight. To mount a double sided copy, cut a window in the biology paper the size of the copy, minus the margins. Line up copy and biology paper, affix with mending tape (the kind you can write on) taping both sides of the biology paper, have a beer, repeat as needed. I've never had this system fail. There's some small satisfaction out of mounting things this way. No batteries to fail, and a durable result. But then I still make book covers out of grocery bags. Cheers, Dave


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 01:03 PM

One word of warning about plastic page holders. Somtimes photocopy or other low quality printed materiel bleeds or rubs off onto the interior plastic. Then, unless the same page is put back in at exactly the same alignment the sheet becomes impossible to read.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 04:23 PM

I had always wondered what I could do with all my old biology papers;-)

But seriously, where do you get your supply? I work with paper in a big way every single day and have never heard mention of biology paper - but from what you describe, I would like to learn more! - especially before I re-do my notebook tabs.


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Subject: Lyr & Chrd. Req./Hillcrest Mine/J.Keelahan
From: Hasek
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 04:29 PM

Might someone have the Lyrics and Chords to : Hillcrest Mine by James Keelahan. This song is found on his Small Rebellions CD. Thank you !


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Dave Swan
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 05:51 PM

Allan,

I've found biology paper sold under that name in local stationers, a large chain drug store, and at a college bookstore. I haven't looked for any recently, as I bought a ream last time I needed it. I think it's meant for mounting dried specimens or reagent paper. I'll sniff around and see if I can find any. Cheers, D.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Dave Swan
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 06:49 PM

Allan,

Ah-HAH, I had a great time tracking this down. Didn't find biology paper(of which I bought a case last time, not a ream) but, thinking of alternatives it occured to me that braille paper is even a little better. Couldn't get any of my blind relatives on the phone, but found www.sightconnection.com on the web. Heavy duty braille paper should do the job really well. Cheers, D.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: karen k
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 05:13 AM

Interesting thread. Lots of good suggestions. I have always used index cards (6"x 9" I think) and these have always worked well. I hardly ever have to replace one because the holes rip, unless the notebook gets too full. Keep the ideas coming.
karen k


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: mountain tyme
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 05:46 AM

I puter print or hand print on Hammerhill 20-50 # bond or K & E Albanene (very durable draftsmans tracing paper, comes in a pad) as large as the length of the lyric requires. I use three ring binders 8 1/2in wide but 5in short. The printed paper is 8 1/2 x 11in. This allows the paper to hang beyond the binder. Each binder holds 20 - 50 songs. Each binder contains a pre-determined set list. I have about 2K songs so I have a lot of binders to choose a set from. By keeping a minimum of sheets in each binder the hole punch tears are rare and can be repaired by using those little paper or plastic stick on A'holes. I hang the binder over the back of the music stand so that the back of the binder is "broken" backwards exposing the binder rings to the max. This makes the pages easy to turn and less prone to tear. During each set I may use several different binders. Also on the music stand is the mount for my Sure 55 gooseneck and a preamp that allows me to control power from the stand on stage. I can then adjust power whenever I reach to turn a page. Breaking the back of the 3-ring binder to expose the rings is the answer to easy no-tear page turning. If the 3-ring binder back begins to break from rebending duct tape rebuilding will reinforce it forever. With magic marker the duct tape can be labeled to identify the contents. This has worked well for me for decades and I can change my choice of set at any time depending on the mood I want to develope. Hope this solves several problems for you entertainers out there.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Tiger
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 07:27 AM

Personally, I don't like it when a performer uses a book - I think it detracts from the relationship with the audience. I want to say....... "If the song is so good, why don't you LEARN it?"

I use my songbooks for study, to collect and learn, and brush up from time to time. Of course, I let others use them to check lyrics (but not while singing), and freely copy or give them away to anyone who's interested.

But we never, EVER, sing from the book.

My $0.02 .........Tiger


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 07:44 AM

Tiger, that's nice, but not everyone has the time or the capacity to memorize all the songs they want. - My .02

Anyway, back to the topic of the question. A friend of mine who is in the business of selling paper has told me there is a kind of paper in a 20# weight which has a reinforced side edge. This paper is suitable for putting through your common inkjet and other printers.

E-mail me and I will pass on his information to those who want or need it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 12:37 PM

Tiger..ah, such a delicate point..we have in our circle those who ALMOST never use books or cheat sheets, those who can't seem to do without them, and those(like me) who sometimes keep a little copy near...just in case...the thing is, we usually have a topic for our sings, to encourage variety and the learning of new songs, but that means, when the topic is "Songs of Dismemberment", someone may discover a wonderful maiden-chopping ballad 5 days before the sing...and just CANT learn it in time..*grin*...so we are reasonably tolerant.

We have, in the past, put notices in the newsletter 'urging' folks to learn and practice their songs before coming, but there are NO 'official' prohibitions against anything. My opinion is, if someone basically knows the tune, and can manage to sing the song without pauses, backups, awkward grasping for meter, etc...then I won't grump TOO loud...but people should remember...singing in/with a group should bring pleasure, not embarassing wrestling with some song you have barely looked at before, just because you want to 'contribute'. We do have a rule, that if you know OF a song you can't really do, you may use your turn to ask for it...and there is often someone there who can sing it just fine. There will NEVER be an easy solution to this situation in a group with mixed experience and talent....and I do know several friends who simply will not attend a sing where everyone is not 'good'. *shrug*...me, I am average, so I am picky, but not adamant.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Tiger
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 01:29 PM

Bill D...

Just to clarify, I was speaking of public performers, not ad hoc leaders at a singing group. I'd certainly give ground there, especially if they were all trying to learn a new song.

But I still balk at the image of one person who 'knows' the song singing to ten others with their heads down, noses in their books.

....Tig


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 04:41 PM

ah, yes...the RUS syndrome...we have had many rounds on THAT here...*smile*...I guess some folks have spent too many years singing from hymnals to ever easily make the change to memorized stuff...it simply becomes a mind-set that the words won't come unless the book is there. *shrug*...no easy answer...


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Les B
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 06:04 PM

On singing from print I have mixed feelings. I don't do it when singing in public, and generally don't like to see it done. Recently, however, we presented Debbie Harry (vocalist of the rock group Blondie), but this time singing jazz with a group called the Jazz Passengers. Just before our concert she had been on a reunion tour with Blondie and had not rehearsed with the Jazz group for some time. When she came on stage she placed her songs on a music stand, and I thought it would be like a stiff school recital. But she put on one helluva show, only checking the printed material with brief glances ! I realized if you can "sell" a song to the audience, it's OK to have a crutch.

On the paper side of song archiving, I keep a master list in huge 3-ring binders (4 inch rings) full of all the songs I'm working on, know, or knew -- in alphabetical order. I'm trying to get them all entered into a computer data base, but the binders will be a hard-copy back up if Y2K rears its ugly head. The rings do indeed tend to "bind" and tear, but so far it's the quickest way to organize bits of 8 X 11 paper.

For set lists, I'm currently experimenting with rolodex cards which have, in large computer type, the song title, key, info about who's taking the break, and sometimes the first word of each line. At a Staples office supply I found a plastic book about 5 X 8 inches which will take rolodex cards and will open up flat with eight cards up at a time. This can be thrown down on the floor by the mics. In a 15 song set, you only have to flip the page once to see your whole set list. It's always reasuring to be able to look a few songs ahead to see when it's capo time, or even to substitute a song. When not in the set book, you can keep the rolodex cards in alphabetical order on a normal rolodex ring, ready to slide into the book in whatever order you want. But nothing beats having a good memory ! Those were the good old days!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Susan A-R
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 10:15 PM

Speaking of RUS, that's a little spiral bound book that has gotten a lot of wear and tear and is still doing ok. Any special materials? paper weights? size to page turn ratios?

My two three ring binders (a-m, n-z) are chaos. I like these suggestions.

Susan A-R


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Tiger
Date: 15 Aug 99 - 07:10 AM

Some fine points from my own songbook experience, applies to 8-1/2 x 11 sheets in 3-ring binders:

1. Don't let the binders get too big or they'll self-destruct from their own weight. The spine is strained, the rings get askew, and you need an industrial-strength coffee table. Mine are about 200 pages each, and even that is a bit heavy.

2. I use a D-ring binder with the ring mechanism mounted on the back cover, not the spine. Much less strain this way. The flat (right) side of the D-ring allows all pages to rest flat and aligned properly when the book is closed.

3. I have a 3-hole punch that makes oversize holes for easier page turning. For larger batches (I do mine 4 or 5 at a time), there's a deluxe version called a paper drill, probably overkill. IMPORTANT - use a punch with FIXED, not adjustable, punch units and be sure you always align the paper the same way when punching. Otherwise, each batch winds up punched differently and you can't flip pages quickly or in a bunch.

4. ALWAYS use sheet lifters, front and back, to keep the pages away from the ring mechanism and prevent the book from being closed if the pages aren't aligned.

Man,......what a fussbudget.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: sail
Date: 15 Aug 99 - 08:42 PM

Bert and Allan, I am just starting three sets of song books, so this is all very interesting to me. I am trying to limit (at this point) myself to ten catagories of songs. I didn't think of alphabetizing-maybe that would be better! But can anyone come up with ten good catagories that would cover everything? Love, war, happy and/or novelty, Irish, popular 50s & 60s, sea, etc. Thanks, Penny.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 16 Aug 99 - 08:52 AM

Sail, the categories are purely subjective. I might have a category for BADMAN BALLADS but another for songs about MURDERS, whereas you might want to lump them all under songs about HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS. Maybe a look at some published collections such as Lomax could give you some ideas. Also, take a look at the notes at the bottom of the songs posted in the DT. Personally, I really like the idea of categories rather than alphabetical divisions. Alpha ordering becomes quite difficult when you want to keep a couple of different versions of the same song: "There Is A Ship", "The Water Is Wide", "Waly, Waly 2"; you see the problem. Besides, often I can't readily think of the name of the song I seek. Being able to look for it by browsing through LOVE SONGS AND LAMENTS could speed things up a bit.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Aug 99 - 09:41 AM

I use the plastic wallet things, and I find them really easy to re-sort every so often (quite often!). I have been through various forms of categorising but have now decided that alphabetic is going to be easiest (except for the ones I want seperate for a specific reason, eg not yet learnt, or lyrics with no tune/chords or songs with spinning/weaving connections). I don't put them in a folder, I just tie up the plastics by threading wool through the punchholes.Then I put them all into an a4 sized shoulder bag. Eventually I will cross-index them by various categories (maybe). Works so far anyway.

Kris


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 99 - 01:37 PM

Thanks for all your suggestions guys. I'm going to see if I can find some biology paper or braille paper.

I've tried those gummed reinforcements (We used to call them 'sticky holes' in school) but they come unstuck and are too bulky.

Tiger, I don't use the book when I'm on stage, but if I'm singing at a circle among friends then it helps with chords for songs I don't sing regularly. With my tin ear I can't sus out what chord I should use before I play it. I can only hear that it was the wrong one when it's too late.

Kris, I used to have a lace up binder at one time that was perfect, but I've never seen one for sale over here. I suppose I could make one.

Thanks again, I'll let you know what I come up with. - Bert.



Sail, I don't think I could categorize my songs, I'd forget which category the were in. Even alphabetized the often turn up more than once in my book.

I keep a travelling book with songs that are in my everyday repertoire and an archive at home of songs I've been meaning to learn or improve.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: JR
Date: 16 Aug 99 - 02:15 PM

As long as I see The Three Tenors and the Boston Philharmonic with music stands, I'm not going to feel bad about having that "insurance" during my occasioan coffee house gig.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Res
Date: 16 Aug 99 - 02:42 PM

Guess I don't have a solution, however, I may expand on the problem. Just what you need. I have all of my songs on computer, too, alpha indexed. I print them out and slide them into a top loading non-glare page protector. I am only up to 250 songs now, have them in a 4 inch "d-ring" binder and the sucker weighs just under 9 pounds. Try lugging that one around. All in all, it does work, but I wish there were a "lighter way". The page protectors are wonderful but contribute most of the 9 lbs I think. I'm looking for some strong paper too, I guess. Res


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Sep 99 - 06:27 PM

Bert, I've only just picked up on this. There is a plastics material used for geology field notebooks which is advertised as waterproof and tearproof, upon which one writes with pencil. I'm not sure what else works, as that would defeat the other point of being re-usable. (Not good science, that.)

We used to have some planning books in school with the holes punched too close to the edge. I used sellotape, then repunched, instead of ring reinforcements.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 01 Sep 99 - 09:38 PM

Penny, What is that material and where can I buy some?

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: folk1234
Date: 01 Sep 99 - 10:13 PM

It's such a relief to see that others have the same problem. When you have poor eyesight, bifocals, weak memory, and built-in stage fright, which exacerbates all of the aforementioned, you gotta have something for a crutch! Mine, like others, is simply several 3-ringed note books and non-glare plastic document covers. I usually enter my songs, along with chords, in 14 pitch type so I can see in poor light conditions. At the bottom of each song I have a few lines (11 pitch) of info about the song, where I learned it, and who performs it best. Bulky, yes, but the added weight helps when out of doors. My note books are entitled "Want to Learn", "Learning", "Know", and "Song Swap" (I co-lead a song swap once a month).


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Les B
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 12:30 AM

folk 1234 - I would need to add to your categorys "Knew once, but have forgotten" !!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 03:53 PM

Bert, that is where I cease to be helpful. I have only seen it made up into little field notebooks about octavo size (Definitely not A sequence). I have bought from a firm called Geo-Supplies in Sheffield, and seen them in a different form at Camborne School of Mines. I suspect that the material is not UK produced.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 04:02 PM

Dammit Penny, I thought you had THE answer. Sounds just the stuff. Octavo would be too small tho' I have similar problems as '1234.

If you come across any more info, post it here.

Thanks,

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 04:12 PM

Bert, I've just tried to find a supplier, via the Web, who might know where the notebook suppliers get their stuff, but no luck. I thought there would be bound to be more suppliers over there than here, too. However, I am now reminded of some stuff we have in school which might work. Our supplies orderer made a mistake and got in some opaque photocopy plastics instead of OHP transparencies. I don't think it would take handwriting, but would certainly take copies. It may be like that Xerox nevertear stuff, though. And there are some specialist ink-jet papers which might be worth looking at.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 07:02 PM

well, folks, you could always use a traditional way..looks strong..;>)

seriously..this page has a product called Ink Jet Glossy Film that says it will print on both sides and is tear-resistant


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 02 Sep 99 - 09:10 PM

As I said in my previous message, e-mail me, and I will forward the information about this paper, 20# weight, which has a reinforced edge. That may be a cost-effective form of paper which would take some of the abuse we users of 3 ring binders need..


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 03:14 PM

The manufacturers of the notebook are BCB International Ltd. Cardiff, CF2 2QS. Probably no help.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: folk1234
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 03:24 PM

Dear Les B: How true, how true!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Easy Rider
Date: 03 Sep 99 - 04:20 PM

It seems most people have a preference for keeping their song sheets in a three ring binder of some sort. I started one of these, in 1963, when I first started learning folk music. In those days, and even now, my sources were from all sorts of places and in all sorts of forms and sizes, printed, mimeographed, lyrics, lyrics and chords, printed or hand written tablature/music, etc. Some of it was on loose leaf school paper, some on yellow note pads.

Most of it is pretty yellow around the edges now, but I'm glad I saved that book. It helped me to relearn all the songs I used to play, when I started playing guitar again last Summer.

Now I usually photocopy the sheets I am working on, so they will lay flat on my music stand. I'm thinking of getting one of those alphabetical accordion folders, at STAPLES, and just putting all my song sheets in that. That way, I can just pull out a sheet and place it on the music stand, when I want to practice it. I don't perform, and I only need my song sheets for learning and practice, at home. At a song circle, I would only play a song that I know pretty well. Often others will know the words, and there is always "Rise Up Singing". "Now let's all turn to the top of page 169. 1, 2, 3, 4..."

EZR


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Poet
Date: 04 Sep 99 - 04:35 PM

Tiger, I started out as an unnacompanied singer and frequently suffered the ignomy of the total blank spot even in songs i knew well. the frantic antics required to remember the next line would often cause me to forget the tune and so on in ever decreasing circles a crutch somewhere handy is useful at such times.

Graham (Guernsey)


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Subject: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Telle
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 04:02 PM

Hey... since this is the personal song book help... I was just curious as to if anuone might know where I can find a songbook titled "The Lion and The Cobra" (to her second album I think it is...) by Sinead O'Connor? If so I would appreciate it if you could email me at DreamCatcher_123@yahoo.com Thanx so much.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Sep 99 - 05:56 PM

Lion and the Cobra was her first album (not that I have the songbook).
One solution no one has mentioned yet: buying a copy of "Rise Up Singing" and pasting over the songs with your own selections. Nice sturdy book, lots of pages. If that is too drastic for you, you could just paste over the Men's chapter, and a lot of the other dreary crud, and go from there -- lots of nice pages....(RUS -- Runs under shelter)....
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:59 PM

This was one of those really good threads that I'd forgotten about. Thought I'd refresh for those who've not seen it and to refresh my memory of it, too.

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Fiddlin' Big Al
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:25 AM

I happen to be a fiddler AND a bookbinder too. There is no easy answer. A cheap and sleazy method would be to use a roll of clear packing tape to reinforce the punched or soon to be punched edge of the paper. Fold the tape over so it covers both sides. (Re)punch your holes. I like the computer based concept and printing out needed replacements. I've been playing in bands so long, doing only the same 8-10 songs as my contribution to the gig that Ive forgotten about the personal fake book. I've also gotta dig it back out of my archives and relearn a ton of what I used to know. I typed in on a manual typewriter about three centuries ago. All the binding methods mentioned in the thread above share the same problem -continued stress on paper in the looseleaf format every time you flip the pages. Hardbinding would eliminate that but sacrifice content flexibility in a still growing collection, but if your book is so thick already maybe hardbinding is the solution. The trick is to copy your collection onto 11x17 paper so it can be folded into signatures, sewn on a book sewing machine, trimmed and glued into a hard cover. This would be a permanent solution. Paper folds & unfolds much more nicely than it can be forced along the rings of a looseleaf or plastic comb binding. I am able to receive a computer based personal song collection by email attachment and produce it into a hardbound volume that would open up nicely and lay flat. No wear and tear on pages at the binding edge. I'll try it on my old book and get back to you. If anyone wants to try this my email is alchidester@juno.com


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:52 AM

I've used Filofax binders and papers for some years now - smaller pages with six holes rather than three, which means less stress on each leaf. You can buy clear plastic protectors for the first and last pages, and pre-punched tabbed index pages which are thicker than the normal paper, adding yet more reinforcement. Another advantage of the Filofax system is that you can ping open the rings using the thumb tag at the top or bottom of the binder, allowing you to slip out a sheet or two for cribbing purposes on the hoof. And, should you fancy it, there are binders galore, ranging from mock croc to old boot leather and brushed aluminium. And no, I haven't got shares in the company!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Mooh
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 09:52 AM

I still prefer a simple poor man's solution of Scotch taping the holes. I wrap a two inch strip of tape around the edge of the sheet at each hole so that it covers both sides of the sheet and then I repunch the sheet. I find the plastic covers too expensive (I'm a musician after all) and reflect light or shade the print too much. Since I never know where the songs will come from and don't like reprinting everything I get, I find this works pretty good. Each hole gets reinforced from both sides and it doesn't bulk up the binder too much.

One caution: make sure you've got a backup copy (I use photocopies) of everything in case of loss.

Poor boy Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Easy Rider
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 11:03 AM

I think this thread is only talking about keeping books of lyrics to songs, but what about the TAB for all those songs? What if you forget how to play something and need to go back to it and learn it again? There is nothing wrong with performing from sheet music, if you can sight play well enough. Lots of professional musicians do it. The question is how to store all that music, so you can find it when you need it.

In 1963-1966, I kept a loose-leaf book of all the TABs, written in pencil, to the songs I was learning, with mimeo sheets stuffed into the pockets of the binder. Boy, am I lucky I kept that book all these years! When I took up the guitar again, two Summers ago, I was able to go back to those lesson sheets and learn my old songs all over again, starting with "Freight Train". My advice, to everyone, is write down the TAB/Music to every song you learn, and keep it somewhere safe. If I could only remember how to play "Bad Dream Blues", I would be a happier man today, but, alas, I didn't write it down!

Now I collect TAB/Music from all kinds of sources, online, lesson books and videos, printed books, copies from other people, and even stuff I write out myself. I am trying to write down everything that I play, so I can go back to it, if I forget how to play it. Nowadays, I use TablEdit to write down TAB/Music and store it in the computer, but I'm NOT going to type in all that other stuff I have in books and booklets and single sheets of paper! I'd rather spend the time practicing the guitar!

I keep the bound books and booklets on a shelf, and make photocopies of the songs I'm learning, to put on my music stand or carry in my guitar case, dating them to indicate when I started learning them. When I am done with the TAB, I put it in one of those accordian files, alphabetized by song title. This way I keep the songs I know in one place and the ones I don't know in another. When the accordian file starts to bulge, I may have to get a file cabinet! I will also consider myself lucky to be able to play so many songs!

Then the question arises, how to find the TAB for a song or even know if you have it or not. Did you ever buy a CD and then get home and find that you already had that one? My solution, for my record collection was to design a Microsoft Access database, with lots of relational cross references. I can easily find all the versions of a particular song or all the songs by a particular artist or author, with just a couple of keystrokes. I think I'll add a lyrics table to the database. I can type in the lyrics, as I find them, or just a reference to the book or folder they are in.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Dai
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:00 PM

Try TYVEK, available from a builder's supply. This is the material they made the sleeves for 5 1/4 disks out of - you can cut it but you CAN'T tear it. Once you have cut it to size and typed/written the notes on the page you can punch it to fit in your binder.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Apr 02 - 05:14 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 11:32 AM

This may be overkill, but have you considered a hand held or notebook computer to keep your songs in? A friend of mine with a gazillion different passwords keeps them on her Palm.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 12:06 PM

It's been mentioned. Someone mentioned laptops, but some of use the Pailm Pilot to keep them handy.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Les B
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 03:02 PM

My, how all things in time do change. Since my above posting, back in '99, I have dumped the 3-ring binders and gotten a metal file drawer. In it I have an alphabetized section for all songs A-Z, and then, when pertinent, I duplicate those songs and put them into special sections like "Cowboy," "Civil War," "Gold Rush," "Minstrel," etc.

I've given up on fancy set list organizing paraphernalia -when our group does a set list we all write down what each of us wants to do on a slip of paper, give it to that gig's designated "set list guru" (a job which rotates), and they organize them and type them up.

I still feel the same, however, about singing from paper. Don't do it unless it's a last resort.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 08:43 PM

The subject has been properly flagellated, but perhaps a few "summary" observations would not be out of order.

Always keep an archive of clean "originals" in a safe place. No matter how you carry them around, they will wear out, someone will spill beer (or worse) on them, they'll fall on the floor next to the leaky oil can in the back seat - or something. Make it easy to replace your portabe book.

The point should be emphasised, for those who use 3-rings, that "D" Ring binders are much easier on the holes than the standard round rings. They cost marginally more, and may be a little more difficult to find, but round rings are IMHO useless over 1-inch.

If you use any "Xerographic" print method, like laser or copy machine, always put a blank sheet with no printing front and back in the notebook, since the printed type otherwise will "grow itself" onto the front/back covers. Cardstock sheets used here also will help keep the adjacent sheets from hanging up in the ring mounts.

If you use plastic sleeves, consider them a "laminate" for the same reason. Anything left in a sleeve for more than a brief time will probably "self destruct" if you try to remove it.

Plastic sleeves come in two main types. The most common are a sleeve you can fit the page into, with holes on a separate "margin" strip. This has the advantage that you don't need holes in the printed sheet; but the edges are usually more flexible than the rest of the sheet, which lets the pages "sag." They also require a "wider" binder. You can also get the type that are "page size" with slots that line up with the holes punched in the paper itself. Suit yourself.

Hole reinforcements have been mentioned. The common kind are "lick-and-stick" and will fall off in fairly short order. You can also get them with "pressure sensitive adhesive" (sometimes called "self-sticking,") which will last a little longer, but will eventually fall of when the adhesive starts to shrink - or will stick to the adjacent page when they get "gummy."

Alternate bindings are something you have to plan ahead for, and you have to make decisions about what to bind, and such. If you can do that much planning, you can probably figure out a way to carry a much smaller portion of your library around. A "permanent" binding on your "archive" generally will make it much more difficult to make working copies when you need them.

Computer methods are becoming more common, but the tendency is to "take everything," just because you can. Give some thought to whether energy used making the "best possible notebook" is detracting from the energy you could use to make music.

John


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: jacko@nz
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 09:22 PM

I served my time with the standard collection of three-hole ring binders and got into the standard mess of loose (torn ring-hole) sheets.

This was pre-computer of course. Why does everyone go to such lenghths to preserve what is instantly replaceable with new at the cost of a couple of seconds printing?

I have found that there is available an assortment of plactic folders that will hold around three hundred sheets of A4.

I doctor the folders so that the sheets stand upright in them, with the top edges clear so that they can be riffled through, and as they are loose sheets they can be kept alphabetical with no trouble at all.

Enquiries after a particular song are answered with "just take this copy"

Jack


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 10:37 PM

My personal songbook has been a laptop for several years now. This approach is very slowly becoming more common amongst the people I sing with. At some sessions there might be five or six laptops. Most simply have copies of my own songbook file. A friend now has my file plus his own. One person uses a palm, but the screen is too small for these old eyes.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Les B
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 12:56 AM

Guest Russ - So what do you do if your laptop goes down? A couple of years ago, at work, I had a list of 300 distributors I needed to contact weekly on my standard office computer.

Because of some malfunction in the network, my computer was knocked for a loop and I couldn't access anything for ten days. I frantically scurried around re-assembling a new list from addresses in old industry magazines, etc. You can bet I now have a paper copy and rolladex cards to back up the electronic files !!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 04:57 AM

That's what backups are for! Dull, important stuff like work I don't bother - I leave it to the network gurus, but the valuable stuff like music, that's another matter!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 04:58 AM

UNimportant, I meant, UNimportant.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 05:23 AM

I like laminates. I can put my beer down on one with impunity!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 07:51 AM

I used a Psion for a while, until the piss-taking got too much (and someone dropped it into a ot of cassoulet around a camp fire - it survived, but smelled might strange afterwards).
The problem with 'leccy things like laptops and PDAs is that they need power, and the text is usually difficult to read unless the screen is up at 45 degrees and the font is enlarged to Autocue size - and that seems pretty antisocial in a social session for my liking.
Unless they have solid-state media (like the Psion or the Palm), they're also pretty vulnerable to bangs - as I know from bitter experience when I dropped a PowerBook with the hard disk spinning and wiped out several chunks of the media as the heads ploughed into the disk. They may be tough, but not that tough!
Dick Greenhaus has a nifty little gadget, though - halfway in size between a laptop and a Psion, with a full colour screen and the whole DigiTrad on it.
I'll stick with the Filofax, though - it fits in the pocket and can be dropped, slept on, used as a doorstop, scribbled over and the leather smells better with a liberal application of decent bitter. And it costs a darned sight less than a laptop.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 03:27 PM

Now if they would just put a Casio keyboard or guitar neck on those laptops then you'd have something :~}!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 03:47 PM

Les B,
When the laptop goes down I know enough songs from memory that I can pull my weight in a song circle. I just happen to love a lot more songs than I can remember.

Even if the hard drive dies, I've got so many backups in so many different locations that I wouldn't miss a beat.

Gervase,
You put your finger on the real problem, power. A laptop is not the best choice for a campfire setting or the Halliehurst porch at Augusta no matter what the claimed battery life is. And laptops are indeed fragile. My songbook laptop is an old cheap "junker" that I bought to use only for that one purpose. I chose it specifically with the thought that if somebody stepped on it in the dark or it got dropped in the cassoulet (you're kidding!) it would not be a significant loss. I position the laptop low so that it does not block anybody's view of me. I assume that some people wish I wish position it higher.

A friend uses a Palm Pilot to store words, but the screen is just too small to be useful for these old eyes. Another uses a Palm o store tunes.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 04:01 PM

By the way,

To state the obvious,

It would be useful to keep in mind one key fact:
whether it be a sheaf of papers or a floppy disk, a songbook fulfills a perceived need on the part of the person who uses it. You might not have that need, but that doesn't make the need any less real to that person. Yes, a songbook is a crutch, but in the real world people need crutches (and wheelchairs, and portable respirators).

My favorite response to my laptop:
I have a friend who is a great musician and knows a million songs from memory. The first time I ever took my laptop to a party at his house, he looked at me quizzically as I set it up. "What's that for?" he asked. I explained. I could see him switch to his lecturer mode. "There are," he began, "lots of things one can do to deal with such memory issues." But then he paused, looked very thoughtful, and finally said, "but that's exactly what you are doing, isn't it." And that was the end of the matter.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 04:25 PM

But how do you balance a laptop on one knee while you're playing guitar in a song circle? At least, with a notebook, you can flop it over that knee, or remove the page with the song on it and put that paper on your knee.
some (perhaps even "many") of those songs comes in handy sometimes.

For instance, I often put a flexible plastic 3-ring binder (with some songs inside) into the neck section of the soft case (gig bag) for my guitar, behind the guitar's neck. That way, I have enough music on hand for some pre-planned activities without lugging around a laptop. Mind you, if I'm attending a jamming party, I will lug along a tote bag with several notebooks and songbooks, just in case!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 09:43 AM

SharonA,

Whenever I take the laptop someplace I also take a small Lafuma camp chair. If I don't raise the chairback it makes a perfect, highly portable, tiny computer stand. I can see the screen because I normally sit while I am playing.

Also, the laptop doesn't go everywhere. It does not work well in the great outdoors. In daylight the display on the screen is essentially invisible. After dark battery life becomes an issue since very few campsites at old time music festivals in the US have electrical outlets. Since the laptop is far from being current state of the art, I cannot rely on batteries for any length of time. Also there is more chance of accidents outside.

Power is not an issue if you are playing indoors. There's usually a conveniently located outlet.

Basically, a laptop is great in certain situations but because of current technological limitations it doesn't work everywhere. I am not so completely dependent upon it that I cannot function without it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 11:16 AM

It seems it's still necessary for us to find our own "best practices" for preserving (and making portable) our music and notes. Quite a few good suggestions above for different things one can do.

The original question was a request for a more durable paper - and after 5 years (this thread started in 1999) I may have found something that will be helpful for some.

I have looked for/at most of the suggested "papers," and found none that were available and/or were really "good" answers, but a fairly new product has appeared that may work for some.

PPG came up with a new "paper" called TESLIN®, apparently about a year ago. So far, the only commercial source I've found is National Geographic. They sell it as "Adventure Paper," and it is available from Amazon and possibly a few other retail sources. You can also get it through/from a number of "outing/mountaineering" clubs, or from a number of printing supply places. The definitive application for this media is for printing maps, and once the ink is dry it is claimed to be waterproof and rugged enough to wad up in a hip pocket in the field.

The Adventure Paper is an "all plastic" but with a very "paper" feel. It is bright white and can be printed in ink jet printers, and marked with pencil or ballpoint etc. About the only limitation is that it is NOT recommended for use in Laser printers. It appears to be quite "tear resistant," and can be easily punched, folded/creased or wadded up without coming apart.

A couple of test inkjet prints I've made on my small sample show better image quality than on standard paper, approaching very closely what you get with inkjet on semigloss photo paper. With artworks printed on both sides of a page, there is no visible "show through," indicating opacity much higher than on typical printer paper (and even better than some "2-sided" photo paper). Sheet thickness is comparable to normal (US) 20# printer paper, and it feeds nicely through the printer.

I haven't tried the "spilled beer" test yet, but do intend to put a couple of samples outside for our coming spring rainy season to see if the stuff is really waterproof. More on that later, perhaps.

With a list price of $19.95 (US) for 25 sheets 8.5x11 inch, or the same price for 10 sheets 11x17 inch, the price is about the same as what I usually pay for inkjet photo papers - not cheap by any means, but "tolerable" if reserved for situations that need it. Amazon currently knocks a couple of dollars off on the 8.5x11 A size, but no discount on the B size. (I haven't seen a source offering metric sheet sizes.)

I did identify an apparently similar "map paper" available in the UK, but have been unable to find any US source. Specifications I've found for this UK product are pretty limited, so I don't really know how similar it is. Most other durable and printable media are either twice the price, or more (and often with $200 minimum order), are coated products printable only on one side, or require extra (and expensive) finishing processes such as lamination or lacquering.

One source that gives a "typical" pitch on what's available in "durable" media is at waterproof-paper. There are several other places with somewhat similar specialty media, but this one gives a good summary for the kinds that are available and that might be useful to 'catters. At least one of the "papers" shown here is laser printable, if that's your need. They describe the Adventure Paper, which is inkjet only, one that is laser only, and one that can be used in both.

Several people have suggested Tyvex® from the lumber yard. The materials I've been able to find in my local market are not something I'd try to run through my printer even if I could get "page size" sheets cut uniformly enough to go through. Most of the "construction grade" sheet I've found would be very difficult to write on, even with a "Chinese brush." I infer from comments here that different materials are more commonly available elsewhere. For comparison, one source lists printable Tyvex® at 8.5 x 11, 50 sheets, $103.50. Other sources I've found quote around $3.67 per sheet.

My "product experience" with this stuff is pretty limited, but it appears to be something that may be of interest for some peoples' "special needs."

John


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:35 PM

Awesome! Thanks John for some great ideas. Will check them out.


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