Robin Hood in the Crusades?

Subject: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,Doug Olsen
Date: 23 May 10 - 03:48 AM

All this talk about the new Robin Hood movie makes me wonder where the notion that he went on Crusade comes from. It's not in the ballads, not in the Howard Pyle telling, not in the Errol Flynn movie. The first place I can think of it appearing is in Richard Letster's 1976 movie "Robin and Marion." But since then, it's part of almost every large-scale treatment, seems to me. Anyone know how it crept in?

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 May 10 - 04:17 AM

All the television Robin Hoods had the time period when Richard 1st (The Lionheart) was away on the Crusades, leaving King John (of the Magna Carta fame) becoming Robin Hoods arch enemy

My impression was that Robin (Richard of Loxley) had been away on the Crusades and had returned to find his lands confiscated by King John etc

All probably fictitious I suppose!

Ray

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,Janet
Date: 23 May 10 - 11:30 AM

In one novel I read years ago (probably now out of print, can't remember author, can't find it by title listings in my state's catalog of library materials), Robin was in the Crusades serving alongside with his neighbor, Lady Marian's father. When he and she caught up with each other after his return, Robin was able to tell her that her father had died in a/n heroic way. Can't recall ever reading why Robin came back instead of staying to fight, though. Also, Robin's being with Richard in the Crusades seemed to explain why Richard recognized Robin when they met again in England. Presumably Robin was fairly young (squire-age, maybe? possibly squire for Marian's father?) when they left England and Richard had seen him grow into manhood in the Holy Lands.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 May 10 - 12:45 PM

It's a film. Historical accuracy is right at the bottom of the pile, particularly when the main character is just a legend. The sequel will probably have him flying a spaceship, and why not? It's entertainment.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 May 10 - 01:33 PM

I believe that is Robert of Locksley.

(picky picky picky)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 23 May 10 - 01:56 PM

Being picky picky picky again, while "Robert" is often given as his full name (Robin being a common diminutive for Robert in medieval england), Loxley in Yorkshire has the oldest connections with the tales and ballads, so Ray's spelling was accurate there, at least.

Other common misconceptions include him being clothed in "Lincoln Green". In fact, the earliest ballads say it was "Lincolne Greyne", "greyne" or "graine" being a red dye colour!

Again, if the man was any more than a balladeer's myth, the earliest tales describe him as a "yeoman" rather than a noble, knight or squire...ie a free man, but relatively low down the social order of the time, so unlikely to have been a crusading knight.

Any history from which the subsequent myths is derived though is so vague as to make any links between the tales, from whatever age, and a historical figure, tenuous in the extreme.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 10 - 02:27 PM

Robert and Robin are the same name, like James and Jimmy.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Chris Partington
Date: 23 May 10 - 02:39 PM

Rob da Hood was played by Richard Green, riding through the glen. Twangg!
So Robin has a Richard and a green connection after all. :)

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 23 May 10 - 04:14 PM

I think I may have had the same novel as Janet as a child, I think it was one of my Dad's old childhood books. I certainly recall the character of Robert of Loxley whose lands were confiscated by Prince John way before the modern films and probably before Richard Green's Robin on TV.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,Jane Ann Liston
Date: 23 May 10 - 05:49 PM

I think I recall hearing that the earliest ballads are from well after the Crusades, 14th or 15th century.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 May 10 - 06:02 PM

I too, as a child, had what I believe was the same novel, I remember it was published by Nelsons, had a dark blue leathergrain cover. I remember the novel laid a good deal of emphasis on Robin's piety, as well as his martial prowess.

I find the idea of him wearing a red-dyed outfit somewhat bizarre. Presumably green would have been a more effective camouflage in the forest, shirley ?

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 10 - 06:53 PM

Hides the blood.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 10 - 07:47 PM

I think Don was being picky about the same thing I noticed,(my emphasis:)

My impression was that Robin (Richard of Loxley) had been away on the Crusades and had returned to find his lands confiscated by King John etc..

Looks as though Robin was identified as "Richard," no?

Regardless, this is a fun read!

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 May 10 - 07:55 PM

Yup, Kat. It was the "Richard" / "Robert" thing I was honkin' about.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 24 May 10 - 02:52 AM

I find the idea of him being dressed in red weird, too, but the early ballads are pretty clear on it...obviously others thought the same thing and "Lincoln Graine" morphed at some point into "Lincoln Green" (leaving Will Scarlett, presumably, as the token upholder of the original tradition :-) )

Yes, the Richard/ Robert confusion was eminently honkable, but I was pointing out that Don's additional Loxley/ Locksley transformation was unnecessary since Loxley village had a good claim on Mr Hood. As far as I know, there isn't any village spelled "Locksley" within a plausible distance of either a Yorkshire or Nottinghamshire setting.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 10 - 04:35 AM

Now, here's a strange co-incidence I have never noticed before. Loxley is almost equidistant between Gisburn and Nottingham. Around 50-something miles from each as far as I can see. Must have some sort of meaning in all these legends. Maybe it was a stopping of point for the Sherrif of Nottingham on he way to see his pal, Guy? Or vice-versca. They must have seen ol' Rob's gaff and thought "'ere - I fancy that place" - and nicked it! Worth including in any retelling anyway (remember to credit me with the idea!)

On the 'green' bit - Is it not more likely that the legend of the green man is the source rather than some cloth that was momentarily fasionable in court circles?

DeG

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Darowyn
Date: 24 May 10 - 04:49 AM

Does not Robin Hood, or a similar character turn, up in Walter Scott's "Ivanhoe"?
That gives it the Crusader/ Richard I /King John connection, and also introduces a bit of Norman/Saxon ethnic strife.
That might be the origin of that extension of the myth.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 24 May 10 - 05:14 AM

This site gets Way too picky at times. Raymond was commenting about a Richard and a Robert, and clearly didn't realise he had typed the wrong "R" word before clicking the "send" button.

As for the crusades. I was not at all sure exactly how they fitted in with other events, so looked them up. It turns out that the Third Crusade lasted Three years. Richard's dad signed up for it, but then died before the armies started out, leaving Richard as a new king. Richard lived in Aquitaine at the bottom end of France, so presumable didn't have as far to travel to get to the Crusade, but it must have taken a while to march an army as far as Jerusalem.
When the crusade finished, on his way home, Richard managed to get himself imprisoned for about 15 months. In all, he was out of the frame for over four years, but less than five, but then again - he didn't actually live in England, and before the crusade started, it was his father who was king.

Given the duration of the Crusade (Is 3 years a long war or a short one?) I imagine that anyone who went to it to fight probably stayed until the finish. A foot soldier would then have had to walk or bum a lift home, unlike nobles who had horses. Even given Richard's imprisonment of over a year, it wouldn't leave a lot of time for our hoodie chap to travel home, form his band and knuckle up to a sheriff and a prince before Richard was ransomed and back in charge.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 24 May 10 - 06:50 AM

Robin and Marian is one of the best films I have ever seen.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 24 May 10 - 07:44 AM

The tradition of archers wearing green dates back to Chaucer...

"And he was clad in cote and hood of grene.
A sheef of pecok arwes, bright and kene
Under his belt he bar ful thriftily,
(Wel koude he dresse his takel yemanly:
Hise arwes drouped noght with fetheres lowe)
And in his hand he baar a myghty bowe."

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: terrier
Date: 24 May 10 - 08:45 AM

'an I thought poor spelling only came about with the introduction of home computers! 8~)

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 24 May 10 - 08:58 AM

Kendall - as for Robin and Marian I did some checking on that as well. This is a cut and paste from my posting on the thread discussing Russel Crowe's accent in the latest Hood film :-

Actually the thing that I find ridiculous in the Robin Hood films is usually the age of the actors.

Just for curiosity I checked some dates. King John - born 1157, became King 1189 (age 32) (also start of 3rd Crusade), Imprisoned Late 1192 (on way home from Crusade) until early 1194 (age about 37) Died 1199 age 42.
When he was the same age as the actor playing him in this particular film (the Russel Crowe film), he had been dead 6 years.
King John - age 22 at start of Crusade, and almost 27 when Richard released after ransom, so an actor age 30 a bit closer.

In the 1976 film Robin and Marian, Sean Connery and Audrey Hepburn play an aging Robin and Marian after the death of King Richard. (I know the plot is all hokum, but bear with me). The whole point of the film was that Robin (in terms of 12th Century lifespan) was getting old and worse for wear. How old was Connery? 46!
Back to the current new film - How old is Crowe? 46!

Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 May 10 - 09:19 AM

Who cares? It's a damned fine action packed film.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:10 AM

I'm with the first poster, Doug, on the topic of Robin in the Crusades. I much prefer the image of Robin in Sherwood Forest, irritating the sheriff and robbing the rich to help the poor.

If the moviemakers prefer violence and want to make a movie about the Crusades, let them pick a different title.

I won't be seeing the movie, so tell me the critical thing. Does it have any good early (or imitation early) music?
======

Hello, Wandering Minstel. I guess you were joking about the passage from Chaucer in Middle English.

I don't know if you have seen any of them, but sometimes people post here in the broads Scots dialect. I find the Middle English easier to understand than those posts. In fact, I have come to ignore them completely - they're just too much hassle.

The only word in the Chaucer that made me pause was 'arwes' = arrows.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:26 AM

The music was distinctly wrong - and Irish!!

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:52 AM

Further to the red/green issue, in the Icelandic sagas, roughly contemporary with Chaucer, young warriors returning from abroad are often described as swanning about in fancy red foreign duds.

As to the crusades issue, I for one have always known that Robin Hood was loyally defending Lionheart's realm from John's misrule while Lionheart was off on a crusade. Also, serfs were bound to the land, which was not fair. I believe I picked up these notions around the age of seven in one of those books which came with a sheet of gummed stamps bound in. After Dad had read you the day's chapter you got to tear out the associated stamp (glowering King John, gloomy peasant with gloomy ox), lick its delicious glue, and paste in in the blank space provided. Then prayers, tuck-in, and so to sleep.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 May 10 - 01:37 PM

Also, serfs were bound to the land, which was not fair.

But that's the way it was back then.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 24 May 10 - 01:56 PM

It's still just as wrong as when you first posted it, Geoff- that's Richard T. Lionheart's CV. John was still on the throne in 1215, when the Barons made him sign the Magna Carta.

And he lived in Derbyshire- we've got Robin Hood's Stride and his Picking Rods (whatever he did with them) here, which proves it.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 May 10 - 02:26 PM

On the "Locksley" / "Loxley" thing:    In various books and such, I've always seen it spelled as "Locksley," but being seperated from the area in question by the Atlantic Ocean and the North American continent (I live close to the Pacific coast), I bow to superior local knowledge.

Yes, Robin Hood (or a character much like him—Robert of Locksley, as I recall, whom his cohorts called "Robin") plus Friar Tuck and miscellaneous others do appear in Scott's Ivanhoe (a book I read positively bug-eyed when I was about thirteen). I recall a scene in which Friar Tuck and the mysterious Black Knight are sharing a meat pasty and engaging in jocular conversation. The good friar is unaware that the Black Knight is actually King Richard, ransomed and returned from his captivity on his way back from the crusades, hence their tendency to laugh uproariously and punch each other on the shoulder in a most familiar manner. The friar had no idea who this jolly, good-natured fellow really was.

A movie or two has had Ivanhoe as the Black Knight, but not according to Scott. Ivanhoe appeared in the tournament early in the book as the Disinherited Knight, his father, Cedric the Saxon having disinherited Ivanhoe when he disobeyed him and went on the crusade with Richard.

Wow! Gotta haul it out and read it again! Lots of action! Vivid writing! Exciting stuff!!

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, here's a piece of Hollywood trivia:    In the Errol Flynn movie, "The Adventures of Robin Hood," there's a scene in which Olivia de Haviland (Maid Marian) is riding a golden palomino through Sherwood Forest. A young cowboy star named Roy Rogers saw the movie and said, "I gotta have that horse!!" He contacted the movie studio, which put him in touch with the stable that owned the horse (named "Golden Cloud"), did a deal with them and thus acquired the horse, which he renamed "Trigger."    CLICKY.

Now, if you're ever on "Jeopardy" and the question comes up, you're all set to go!. No need to thank me! (But a share of your winnings would not be amiss. . . .)

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 May 10 - 06:25 PM

Picking rods, eh? I bet he got pears, quinces, and apples out of trees with them.

Too bad about the music, but I suppose few of us could relate to the kind of music (whatever that might be) that was hitting the chart's in Robin Hood's time.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 24 May 10 - 06:30 PM

Of course it's Richard's CV. John didn't fight in any crusades.
If you can't automatically correct names, what's the point in us making typographical errors?
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 24 May 10 - 06:37 PM

Sergei of Gisborne was,naturally,Russian. And,of course, Robin was a bloke,who had several bows,and he kept them nice and clean. As to looking after sailors, and their "Crews' Aids "....I dread to think.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 10 - 07:03 PM

Gisborne is in New Zealand. Gisburn is in Lancashire. Well, it may have moved since they changed the borders. And the spelling...:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 May 10 - 07:06 PM

The original question is an interesting one, and I don't really know the answer without checking my reference books, but it's much earlier than 1976. The first certain reference to Robin on crusade that I know of offhand is the novel Maid Marian, The Forest Queen, by Joachim H. Stocqueler (1849). Certainly in the second of the De Koven light operas about Robin Hood (1901), he is off on Crusade, which may be the first real pop-culture reference. And of course Robin Hood goes to the crusades in the 1922 film with Douglas Fairbanks. And R. Padgett is correct (other than the typo); in the 1950s Robin Hood TV series, Robin was a returning crusader, although not that much is made of this during the series' long run.

On a related note, Robin Hood was first placed in the correct PERIOD to go on the third crusade in the 1521 Chronicle known as the HISTORIA MAJORIS BRITTANIAE. This is a great double-entendre title, as the author is one John Major, and the title translates from Latin both as "A History of Great Britain" and as "Major's History of Britain!" In the earlier chronicles, Robin was stated to have lived later, in the 1260s or 1280s, while the earliest ballads place him in the reign of "Edward," but don't say which one--presumably Longshanks!

As previous posters have noted, in most of the versions of Robin Hood that place him in Richard's reign, it is precisely the period during which Richard is on crusade--and Robin isn't--that most of the action takes place.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Nerd
Date: 24 May 10 - 07:48 PM

By the way, as to the music, it is indeed more Irish than English. One of the conceits of the film is to make Robin's band representative of (today's) UK, with an Englishman (Robin), an Irishman (Alan a Dale), a Scotsman (Little John), and a Welshman (Will Scarlet) hanging out together. Since the main singer/musician is supposed to be Irish (in fact he is played by the talented Newfoundlander Alan Doyle, of Great Big Sea fame), the music and song has an Irish lilt. Much of the music is anachronistic; for example, you can hear "the world's first steel-strung lute," "the world's first uilleann pipes," and indeed the world's first of many of the standard orchestral instruments, none of which existed in the 1100s.

Incidentally, although the friendliness of this multi-ethnic Celto-Saxon clique--and their ability to communicate in English--is anachronistic, their presence on the crusade is not. There were in fact people from all four countries with Richard's army. Giraldus Cambrensis's famous travel book about Wales in the twelfth century details Archbishop Baldwin's recruitment of Welsh soldiers for the Third Crusade. No less a person than the High Steward of Scotland, Alan Fitzwalter, also attended. (Although a Norman, Alan really did live in Scotland and held his lands there, so many of his attending vassals would have been Scottish. BTW, it was Alan's son, Walter, who took the name of the office for his surname and became the first Stewart.) Finally, there are ten Irish knights whose names are known who went with Richard's army, and they undoubtedly brought men with them. There are probably more nobles and knights from Ireland, whose names are not known. So, while this friendship almost certainly DIDN'T happen, it could have!

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 10 - 07:50 PM

I refer to Thomas Costain's "The Magnificent Century" in which he describes a dispossessed knight known as Williken Of The Weld harrassing the French and the traitorous English earls from the safety of the old forest between London and the sea. Costain ascribes the Robin hood myth to this origin, in which case the man, about whom little is known, could have been a crusader. Other historians describe Robin as a folk creation, much like King Arthur, a web of romance built on a frame of misty history. It's hardly worth arguing about, but you ought at least (like Kendall) bring history rather than fiction to the history discussion.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 May 10 - 02:12 AM

This isn't a history discussion, GUEST, it's a discussion about where the notion comes from that Robin Hood was a crusader. The answer to that is almost certainly found in fiction, because I'm aware of every known early historical reference to Robin Hood, from the chronicles to the marginalia of government documents, and there is no reference anywhere to his being a crusader.

As for Willikin, he is one of those figures that folks desperate to find a historical figure in the reign of John seize upon sometimes as a real-life Robin Hood. However, no scholar of Robin Hood in the last half-century (or ever, as far as I know) has seriously argued that Robin Hood is based on Willikin of the Weald. The early tales of Robin Hood are about an outlaw, who is a yeoman, located in Yorkshire or Nottinghamshire, set in the reign of "Edward our comely king," or else in an unspecified time period, who fights against a Sheriff representing the duly-crowned king. Later, when moved to the time of Richard and John, Robin still fights against royal authority, though he submits to King Richard directly. First and foremost in all these tales, he is a robber.

Willikin, about whom in fact quite a bit is known, was not an outlaw, was not a robber, was not a yeoman but a petty noble or squire, was not from Nottingham or Yorkshire but from Sussex, was not in opposition to the English crown but a loyalist, and fought primarily against French invaders. He had, in other words, almost no similarity to the legend of Robin Hood, except he commanded archers and was briefly based in a forest.

As for Willikin's being a crusader, he was called a "youth" at the time of the first Barons' war (1215) by the contemporary chronicler Roger of Wendover, so he was too young to have gone on Crusade with Richard twenty years before. England didn't participate much in the fourth or fifth crusades, so his being a crusader is extremely unlikely.   

There are much more convincing "real antecedents" to the Robin Hood story, such as Fulke Fitz Waryn, Eustace the Monk, and Hereward the Wake, whom Robin Hood scholars DO see as potential sources for the tale. None of these figures went on Crusade as far as we know. Fulke, however, WAS a friend of King Richard who remained in England during the Crusade, at which time he was oppressed, dispossessed and outlawed by John, who had a grudge against him. This is most likely the source of these elements in the Robin Hood legend.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 May 10 - 02:28 AM

Rob Naylor has the color history a bit scrambled. It's not that the ballads "are pretty clear" that the color is "greyne" rather than "grene." For one thing, anyone looking for such consistency and fine distinction in Middle English spelling is sure to be disappointed! Rather, what Rob is referring to is the fact that, in the first fytte of the Geste of Robyn Hode, Little John refers to Robin having cloth of "scarlet and grene" to supply the threadbare knight with clothes. Scholars SPECULATE that this phrase might originally have been "Scarlet in Graine," a particularly rich form of scarlet. In fact, however, the text that has come down, printed about 1450-1500, SAYS "scarlet and grene," which clearly means "scarlet and green." "Grene" is the same spelling used to describe "the grene wood," and "grene levys" throughout the text, so by the time of the first written copies it was understood that Robin has bolts of scarlet cloth AND green cloth to give to the knight. (Again, this whole passage refers to cloth that Robin has on hand to give to the knight, not to the clothes that he and his men are wearing.)

At every other place in the ballad where clothes are mentioned, it states "Lincoln grene," "grene mantel," etc, with the same spelling as "grene wood" and "grene levys," so unless Robin lives in a red forest with red leaves, it is clear throughout the Geste that whoever wrote it down thought of all the clothing as green, not red.

Another early text states "Kendall grene," again a form of green, and none of the other early texts (Monk, Friar, the Potter ballad, or the Potter play) refers to the color of Robin's clothes at all. So the idea of a red-clad Robin is based on scholarly speculation about a phrase used only once in one text. Whether this should be taken as definitive evidence that the cloth was red is, I think, doubtful.

BTW, the misconception that the ballads actually say "Lincoln Graine" was popularized a few years ago on the quiz show QI, with Stephen Fry, which was constantly looking for "gotcha" questions. It suited their purpose to ask "what color were Robin Hood's tights?" and answer "red." But a quiz show is not a good source of historical scholarship. Anyway, now all the texts are online here, so anyone who cares to can see for him- (or her-) self what the texts actually say!

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 10 - 02:39 AM

Many thanks Nerd for answering the orginal question. I've not seen the Fairbanks movie (shame on me) and knew nothing about the De Koven light operas. So i'm fascinated to learn that this particular notion goes back so much further that 1976.

As for "historical accuracy" -- what's the point? In spite of much searching by a lot of people, there is absolutely no evidence for an actual outlaw called "Robert Hode" or anything similar. There were (probably) actual outlaws reknowned for archery skills, but somehow their stories accreted on to Robin Hood tales and their names got mislaid. Looking for the "real Robin Hood" is like looking for an agricultural murder victim named John Barleycorn.

Doug

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 May 10 - 03:21 AM

Doug,

You're right about "what's the point?" But the problem is the opposite. There is too much evidence for too many outlaws who were called "Robin Hood" and similar names. There's a fugitive murderer in 1213 named Robert Hood, a fugitive Robert Hod in 1225 in York, etc.   

In 1261, a man was indicted for robbery. He was first known as "William son of Robert Lefevre," but became "William Robehod" in a later court roll. This suggests that "Rob Hood" was already a common nickname for a robber, like "John Doe" today for an unknown victim, by that time. Given this, we can never be sure that any such figure called "Robin Hood" isn't just being called by a legendary name...so no such evidence can ever be very convincing. Others have argued that "William son of Robert Lefevre" was a description of him, and "William Robehod" was his actual name...i.e., his father was Robert Robehod, and was a smith, who would have been called in Anglo-Norman Robert LeFevre (Robert the smith). Nevertheless, as long as the doubt is there, no evidence of a "Robert Hood" who is an outlaw will convince most scholars that they have found the "real" or original one.

Scholars do believe that the legendary exploits of three real-life people, Fulke, Eustace, and Hereward, contributed elements to the later story of Robin Hood. But this is very different from saying that any of them WAS Robin Hood, or that there is or ever was a "real Robin Hood."

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 25 May 10 - 04:02 AM

"By the way, as to the music, it is indeed more Irish than English."

I've not seen the film but the Scottish Gaelic singer Kathleen MacInnes seemingly also features. It is strange that they should choose singing in Scottish Gaelic for a quintissentially English film! I wonder if the Celtic connection was maybe inspired by Clannad's music in the old TV series "Robin of Sherwood" though I don't think they actually used Irish Gaelic songs in that.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x282pd_clannad-robin-hood_music

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 May 10 - 04:30 AM

"I find the idea of him wearing a red-dyed outfit somewhat bizarre. Presumably green would have been a more effective camouflage in the forest ... ?"

In medieval England a 'forest' was a hunting preserve and a place for deer - not a 'big wood'. Some forests were on open heathland or moorland and some forests were wooded - but this was just coincidental.

Nevertheless, I would have thought that red was not particularly good camouflage on a moor or a heath!

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 25 May 10 - 04:48 AM

Some interesting and informing comments based on actual recorded information, Nerd.
I am glad you have provided the answer to the red/green tights question (unless Robin was colour blind and couldn't see the difference...). I suppose the next one is "did they wear tights?", or a less frivolous question - would forest dwellers and peasants be wearing a form of trouser?
Another web site worth looking at is http://www.boldoutlaw.com/. It has a Search for A Real Robin Hood, which tries to separate fact from fiction on some of the possible candidates.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 May 10 - 05:16 AM

I think that there was a bunch of Outlaws who were Cyborgs ; whenever one was captured and interrogated,he would say "We are Robin Hood". That way,Robin could never die. And on British TV in the 1950s,he was played by Richard Greene. Or Red, if you prefer.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 25 May 10 - 08:22 AM

Leenia,

no I wasn't kidding! that was a direct quote from the prologue of "Canterbury Tales" and yes Chaucer does write it as 'pecock arwes'.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 May 10 - 10:41 AM

When i spoke of kidding, I was referring to somebody's joke about bad spelling, not to the Chaucer which preceded it.

Thanks for posting the Chaucer. I like that old stuff.
=======
It occurs to me that as an outlaw, Robin probably had two outfits --a green one for spring and summer and a reddish-brown one for fall and winter.

Duh!

In my mental images of Robin Hood, it is always summer because they made the movies and TV shows in summer. But that doesn't mean that it was always summer in Robin's time. Too bad, eh?

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 May 10 - 11:04 AM

Geoff, the ballads don't say "tights," of course, but they often refer to "hose." The closest garment we have today to early men's "hose" would be tights.

One early rhyme says he is "hooded and hatted and hosed and shod."

The other garments he often wears are a "robe" and a "mantle" of "grene."

Shimrod is correct...when we say "forest" we are using a more modern sense of the word. The ballads usually say "wood." However, in many of the ballads, they are clearly in a wood that is also a "forest," as the game is protected by forest law and the outlaws occasionally encounter foresters.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 May 10 - 11:20 AM

Leeneia, you're exactly right in at least one ballad. In "The Jolly Pinder of Wakefield," when Robin asks the pinder to join the outlaws, he sweetens the pot with the following offer: "Thou shalt have a livery twice in the year, The one green, the other brown."

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 25 May 10 - 12:04 PM

Nerd - I'm just being flippant referring to "tights", but on a more serious note, I've never been that sure who and when the different forms of nether garment belonged to. What attire was just a fashion amongst nobles as opposed to what the peasantry used, and so forth.
Also on the subject of "hose" where the distinctions lie between long socks (or stockings) worn with a tunic, long socks joined in the middle (tights) and joined in the middle but no feet (leggings). Would they all have been "hose"?
If ballads refer to Robin wearing hose, is that because peasants would also be wearing them, or is it mentioned because he was wearing the garb of the rich, bought from the spoils of robbery, or by sending some noble home with a bare bum?
Just passing thoughts...
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 25 May 10 - 12:55 PM

There is at least one tale which mentions explicitly a trip to get Lincolnshire green cloth and the misadventures which relate to that trip. This is from the Grosset and Dunlap printing of the 1950's version of Malory.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Nerd
Date: 25 May 10 - 04:04 PM

Geoff, "hose," whose plural was "hosen," varied in all those particulars. There were joined and unjoined, footed and footless, etc. Usually they did have feet, and sometimes the feet had leather soles so that shoes were unnecessary. (This makes the rhyme I quoted above charmingly symmetrical; "hooded and hatted" and "hosed and shod" both show Robin with a "belt-and-braces" approach to dressing!) Many times they were joined in the back but not in the front, which is where the codpiece came in, to cover the gap in front. It's hard to picture what Robin should look like, because we don't know what era to picture; the ballads are all late fifteenth century or later, but if there was a "real" man he was probably around two hundred years before that.

The ballad writers were presumably thiking of their own era's fashions when they wrote. This would likely be a pair of hose, either separate or joined in the back, worn over braies or linen drawers on the bottom, and tunic or a "gown" over a "shirt" (i.e. an undershirt) on top. Even if the hose were not joined in front, the middle-class tunic or gown would be long enough to cover the naughty bits, and there was an undergarment there as well!

To answer your other question, all ranks wore hose, but the cut and quality varied greatly, more or less like "trousers" in our day. Think of Brueghel the elder's paintings, for example, which show sixteenth-century peasants in hose (which look essentially like tights). Brueghel's upper garments are often long enough to "cover," and sometimes short enough to require a codpiece, but he was a hundred years later than the early ballads and hemlines went up in that time! So the fact that Robin is wearing hose says nothing about his social state, it's the quality of the hose that would be telling!

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 25 May 10 - 04:41 PM

I don't expect you folks on the other side of the puddle to be as impressed as I was when I stood on the very ground where King John was forced to sign the Magna Carta, or Glastonbury, or Stonehenge, but being a history nut it was very special to me. I love the British Isles for your history; there is so much of it!

Then, of course, there was Linlithgow palace, John 'O Groats , Scapa Flow and the Eagles Nest where I held a 5000 year old human skull, and Skara brae.

Tintagel, Lands End,and Hampton Court where my dear friend, Morticia took me. AROUND that is.

I wouldn't swap those memories for a farm Downeast with a hog on it.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Bert
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:33 PM

Look, if it's not in the Errol Flynn movie then it ain't true.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 25 May 10 - 07:48 PM

He was Tasmanian was he not?

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,Janet
Date: 25 May 10 - 11:33 PM

Yes, Kendall, Flynn was Tasmanian, and a quite a devil, too! As a US resident all my life, I like you, was thrilled to visit Runnymede and see where the Magna Carta was written and to see the JFK memorial there, too. However, I learned on my second visit to the UK that King John did not "sign" the Magna Carta. Instead, his seal was applied to it. I learned this at Lincolnshire Castle which has one of the original documents. As I recall, at least 4 of the original documents were made (by hand, of course) and John's seal applied to each. I think the reason it was sealed instead of signed was that everyone could recognize the seal but not everyone could read a signature, or the document itself for that matter. Also during this trip I went to Nottingham and walked in Sherwood Forest. I bought a golf shirt that says Robin Hood, Nottinghamshire, and has an embroidered silhouette of the archer drawing his bow. Because the weather here has just turned warm, I took it out. Now people are asking me where I got it because they think it is promoting Crowe's movie! I haven't seen that and probably won't until it's available for borrowing through my library. I think that I will prefer the Flynn and Greene portrayals of Robin.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 26 May 10 - 03:43 AM

Nerd - thanks for the details on hosen.
It is good to see that there are still some Mudcatters who can be polite, good humoured and intelligent.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 May 10 - 02:46 AM

Well some body has to b***r it up to start with to get a decent argument going!

I agree with Geoff the Duck, grey cells on the blink for Richard read Robert (aka Robin!)

Ta

Ray

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 May 10 - 05:10 AM

Nerd: Rob Naylor has the color history a bit scrambled. It's not that the ballads "are pretty clear" that the color is "greyne" rather than "grene." For one thing, anyone looking for such consistency and fine distinction in Middle English spelling is sure to be disappointed! Rather, what Rob is referring to is the fact that, in the first fytte of the Geste of Robyn Hode, Little John refers to Robin having cloth of "scarlet and grene" to supply the threadbare knight with clothes. Scholars SPECULATE that this phrase might originally have been "Scarlet in Graine," a particularly rich form of scarlet.

Fair enough! Serves me right for reading "scholarly" works on the subject :-(

Nerd again: Geoff, "hose," whose plural was "hosen," varied in all those particulars.

My maternal grandma always called shoes "shooen" and eyes "ee-en"...and she was born as late as 1885!

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: IanC
Date: 27 May 10 - 05:23 AM

The Anglo-Saxon -n plural (apparently originally a weak feminine ending) is still common in parts of East Anglia. Shoon is particularly common. I've used it myself in the right company (i.e. very local people).

:-)

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 27 May 10 - 03:11 PM

Rob Naylor - shoe'en and ee'en (not sure how many eeeees are acceptable before you add the apostrophe) are forms I would not question if heard spoken in dialect. I am sure there are some others I have actually heard, but can't bring to mind at present.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 27 May 10 - 05:37 PM

"My maternal grandma always called shoes "shooen" and eyes "ee-en"...and she was born as late as 1885! "

Shune for shoes and een for eyes are very common in Scots dialects to this day.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 10 - 09:08 PM

Nerd:

Good stuff! I will henceforth defer to you on historical questions.

Kendall:

I share your feelings about "standing on the spot." I had some similar experiences out West in Gloucestershire a few years ago. My facebook photo is a pic of me standing in front of a pub that's been open continuously since 946. I can testify to the saying that Americans think two hundred years is a long time and Brits think two hundred miles is a long way.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: LadyJean
Date: 27 May 10 - 11:06 PM

More than twenty years ago now, I directed three period plays about Robin Hood with the Society for Creative Anachronism, a sort of medieval reenactment group.

These plays were perhaps fifteenth or sixteenth century. In them, Robin Hood is a guy who hangs out in the woods with his men. He doesn't rob anybody. He just gets into fights. In "Robin Hood and the Knight" he fights a knight who tries to capture him for a reward, then the Sherriff of Nottingham. In "Robin Hood and the Monk" he fights Friar Tuck. In "Robin Hood and the Potter" he fights a potter.

Maid Marion appears at the end of "Robin Hood and the Monk", though no name is given. She is simply introduced as "A lady free, and I her chaplain do thee make, to serve me for my lady's sake." Friar Tuck responds with a ribald little rhyme about the lady's moral character, which we, happily didn't find until the last rehearsal. Because the play was being performed for Boy Scouts.

I encountered Robin first in Howard Pyle's "The Merrie Adventures of Robin Hood", written, I think sometime around the turn of the last century. Then there was the old Richard Greene series, which I still have a nostalgic fondness for, since it was on about the time school started, so if I was watching Robin Hood I wasn't going to school.

Rosemary Sutcliffe's book "Heroes and History" includes a chapter on Robin Hood. She seems to think he was a contemporary of Edward II. Though she suggests that the name might have been used by a succession of outlaws.

Which would explain why Bullfinch's Mythology has him as a champion of Katherine of Aragon.

Incidentally, speaking of the S.C.A., on the runestone field at Cooper's Lake, where the annual Pensic War is celebrated, there grows an oak tree that began as a seedling at Runnymede.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 May 10 - 06:23 AM

My maternal grandmother born 1886 would always say yourn, ourn and my-yern (mine) - came from Kilburn in north London, very strange!

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,Janet
Date: 28 May 10 - 09:06 AM

A TV station called Retro TV, which I've only been able to access since "TV's digital revolution" since I don't have cable or satellite, has been airing the old Richard Greene series. Last night they showed the first episode with Robin returning from the Crusades. I know another contributor to this thread wrote about that. Robin explained that he'd been wounded in the Crusades. As I've followed this thread, I've been interested in references to earlier literary works that say he was a Crusader and others that don't.

I think the whole Richard Greene series is available in a boxed set of DVDs. According to one source, it lasted only four years.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 May 10 - 09:30 AM

Hi, Lady Jean. Thanks for sharing your memories about the Robin Hood play. I enjoyed reading them.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 28 May 10 - 10:57 AM

And I had always heard that to be "hosed" was to suffer some outrageous indignity or irretrievable loss. Did anyone mention Mel Brooks' film, "Robin Hood - Men in Tights?" Truly outrageous.

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 28 May 10 - 08:09 PM

No one seems to have mentioned the recent BBC1 Saturday Tea time Robin Hood
[ran for 3 series]
Much better production values than any previous TV version;
and probably the last attempt to translate and update the Robin Hood myth
for a young audience for many years to come ?

..astonishingly ludicrous in parts, satisfyingly dark and more adult as the series progressed..

Notable for the villains being hugely entertaining
and far more interesting than the spoilt sulky Robin and his band
of shambolic bickering diversely multi ethnic/gendered 'merry men'.

and yes, loads of scenes set in the crusades !!!

..in fact, once or twice during the duration of the series,
characters would hop on a boat, nip off to the Holy land for a quick bit of intrigue
and a dust up with the enemy.
Then catch a fast boat home in time for the next weekends episode !!!???

Subject: RE: Robin Hood in the Crusades?
From: LadyJean
Date: 29 May 10 - 12:10 AM

Incidentally, Friar Tuck in the plays describes Robin Hood's men as clothed all in Lincoln Green.