BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:12 AM

How much longer can the US justify supporting the Israeli terror against peaceful civilians? Story here.

---

No Guest Posts Will Be Allowed On This Thread.

If you'd like to post, be sure you are logged in as a member.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: DougR
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:38 AM

For a long, long time, Michaelr. Israel is the best friend we have in the mid-east. Probably the only one, actually.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:08 AM

Naturally, Doug. Your government's imperial policies there directly or indirectly attack, exploit, and oppress everyone in that entire region except Israel. You are partners in crime there, so why wouldn't they be your only friend in the area under such conditions? It's rather like Al Capone saying that one of his top hit men is his "good friend".   Common interests is what that is, not friendship.

Mussolini was Hitler's "good friend" too, you know...and then there was Beria and Stalin...similar arrangements.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: polaitaly
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:27 AM

On the italian press the dead reported are at least 16.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:58 AM

Israel will make peace when they have completely taken over the west bank and forced all the palestinians into Jordan or overseas, then starved out Gaza so they all flee or die as well. They have their own chapter in "Famous violations of the Geneva Conventions and other international agreements." It's a very sad and angering thing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:33 AM

The Israeli Government and Military are ruthless criminals.

Last night they murdered 20 civilians in international waters.

They did this to prevent food, medicine and building materials for schools and hospitals from gettng through to a city dying of poverty.

Let Obama, Cameron and Clegg be judged by their reactions.

And if they are not united in utterly condemning Israels actions last night then damn them to hell.

I spit in the eye of anyone who dares to defend such a horrendous crime against humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:37 AM

Mark Regev, the Israeli spokesman says:

"They initiated the violence, that's 100% clear"

Presumably this was after hundreds of armed commandos descended from helicopters and climbed on board from rubber dinghies and stormed the ships.

What a fucking liar!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:40 AM

If anyone else did this it'd be recognized for what it is - piracy on the high seas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 06:58 AM

TROLL ALERT!

The post by GUESTheric must be an imposter.

It states "he never got enough of them" referring apparently to Hitler and the Jews.

I have never read a post by Heric advocating such views.

Anti semitic bullshit is not welcome on the mudcat.

Anti semites are not welcome on my political platform.


I will be requesting that Guest posts are excluded from this thread.

---

The post does appear to be from an impostor, so I deleted it. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:39 AM

I agree with LOX and this should not be an anti Jewish thread. However this attack on the civilian aid convoy cannot, must not go without some form of very strong protest from everyone. How can one make one's voice heard effectively?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:43 AM

Be interesting to hear what the resident Canadians have to say?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:50 AM

By which I mean, how this incident is reported there and so-on - in view of Canada's public position regards Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 May 10 - 08:00 AM

What is Canada's public position regarding Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 May 10 - 08:45 AM

Well, I'm not condoning the attack - if it happened as reported by one side and not the other. On the other hand, Israel is at war and Gaza is blockaded - and I have no interest in discussing the legality of the war or Israel's existence for the umpteen zillionith time. The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port. The actions of the convoy's leaders were intended solely to provoke the response that they did, not to assist the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:27 AM

Atrocity is a bit strong isn't it? If they'd blown the ships out of the water, or bombed a mosque, that would be an atrocity. This looks like the heavy-handed sort of escalation that happens in a war, a tragedy but not an atrocity. Still, we need to hear more acounts yet.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Arnie
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:46 AM

It's significant that the Turks got involved in this convoy to help the people of Gaza. In fact the mother ship was the Mavi Marmara (Blue Marmaris) flying a Turkish flag. Turkey has always had a secular constitution but is now run by an Islamic government who sympathize with the Palestinians in Gaza. So far the Turkish army has successfully protected Turkey's secularism (using the occasional military coup) but the present Islamic government is forever pushing the boundaries. Turkey also has the largest land army in Nato and plenty of modern armaments. The Turks are today burning Israeli flags in the streets. I studied in Turkey many years ago and can attest that they are not the sort of people you want to annoy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bankley
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:03 AM

Canada has a free trade deal with Israel... the anti-defamation league(B'nai Brith) pressured the Feds. to deny entry to George Galloway last year... but another George (W. Bush) was allowed in twice. (My friend is facing a sentencing on June 07 for trying to arrest the former President in Calgary for war crimes.)

I personally boycott anything coming out of the Blue Star State, whether it's from the occupied territories or otherwise...and remain outspoken through my art... 'some are born to the music, some are born to the gun'
My sympathies are with the victims of this latest tragedy and their families... remember Rachel Corrie

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:09 AM

"Canada as Israel's strongest supporter"

As a side-matter the Israeli president is in fact over there right now having tea & biccies with the Canadian president. Then he's popping over for a natter with Obama tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:11 AM

Oops, now he's not..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:46 AM

"Atrocity is a bit strong isn't it?"

What is the cut off limit that distingishes a mass murder from an atrocity?

25 dead? 30? 100?

It was a flotilla of Aid agencies bringing humanitarian aid to people who need it.

It was in international waters.

It was no threat to Israeli National security.

There is no moral, legal or military argument to support these actions.



"if it happened as reported by one side and not the other"

The information about the numbers of dead is corroborated by Israeli news sources.

There has been no information from those in the flotilla since the Israeli Navy blacked out all communications.

Why did they do this?

We await the testimony of those on board.

I will be paying careful attention to the testimony of the Irish members of parliament who were on board.



"The actions of the convoy's leaders were intended solely to provoke the response that they did, not to assist the Palestinians."



This is your opinion. It is uncorroborated.

Regardless of which it is a poor excuse for the murder of 20 Aid agency workers.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:55 AM

"Sometimes we have to look into our own back yards before we start pointing fingers at our neighbours down the street. "


Yes I agree.

The British and American Government, our governments, are sitting in our back yard giiving tacit support to a campaign of repression and violence in Gaza, a place described by Gerald Kaufman (a friend of Golda Meyer and Tsipi Livni) as being comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto.


"The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port."


What about the medical and dental surgeries on board the ships designed to give Gazan's access to a doctor or dentist?

How exactly were they meant to deliver these things without the ships going too?

And how about the Aid workers?


The majority of Aid to Gaza has been smuggled in. The UN and all the main Aid agencies all contradict the Israeli claim that they are allowing enough aid in.

In fact they all support a view that Israel is starving Gazans of the things they need to survive.



"and I have no interest in discussing the legality of the war or Israel's existence for the umpteen zillionith time"


Well you are the only person to bring these issues into the discussion, so if you could try and stick to the point that would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:14 AM

Proclaiming that you're friends with the neighborhood bully and not working to stop the bad behavior is nothing to brag about. Frankly, this "friend" needs a good Three Stooges-style dope slap.

Israel as a nation has taken on some of the characteristics of the countries that abused Jews in WWII. That is clear. Their treatment of the Palestinians, and such prolonged time they spend in camps - generations! It is appalling. This American says Israel has none of my support as long as they continue to stir up their neighbors in the Middle East. If they settled on the land allotted and were good neighbors, I think things now would be a lot different now.

New York Times stories are a lot more durable than anything via Yahoo news (the first link).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:16 AM

"There is no moral, legal or military argument to support these actions."

I guess the Israeli president disagrees with you as he's given the attack his "full backing".

In regard how this event may play out world-wide, it's interesting to watch the various immediate responses from different nations. The US response in particular is telling (particularly in light of the scheduled meeting tomorrow I thought) as it was the most mildly worded I've read thus far, expressing "regret" for a "tragedy" rather than condemnation of an attack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:18 AM

Gerald Kaufman

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:22 AM

EDIT: "it's interesting to watch the various immediate OFFICIAL responses from different nations."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stu
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:15 PM

More dead people. Soon more . . . and more . . . and more . . . and more . . . and more. . . and more (repeat ad infinitum).

I guess humans have an unquenchable desire for blood and gore, as well as an unnerving ability to inflict upon and ignore the suffering of other living beings. Shame really, so much potential as a race too.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:27 PM

No Guest Posts Will Be Allowed On This Thread.

If you'd like to post, be sure you are logged in as a member.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:29 PM

Israel will never allow a free Palestinian state.
As long as Israel keeps their boot on the Middle East, there will never be peace in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:32 PM

"...but, Daddy...HE started it!"

There's plenty of blame, provocation and guilt to go around.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:38 PM

Actually, WHO started it isn't generally irrelevant in wars. I mean if the second world war went on long enough, detractors could have used precisely the same bland dismissive platitude regards the responsibility of the Germans for 'starting it'.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:03 PM

The lesson: end Israel now. I mean the Jewish state. There's no room in the world for single-interest states, whether Jewish, Aryan, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu or Pagan.

It was a mistake- it started as an honest mistake born of 19th century romantic nationalism, was made more dishonest by willing to be co-opted by British oil interests in the 30s (because the Mesopotamia pipeline went that way), further by using the cold war as a lever to secure US patronage, and ended up blackmailing the USA who can't even ask politely that they should obey international law.

But the result is that there will probably be another Holocaust- in 5 years, 50 years, 500 years- and next time nobody will be particularly surprised.

As you reap.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Barden of England
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:12 PM

Am I missing a point here? People keep mentioning 'war' but has there been a declaration of war? And if so on whom?
This is an illegal act in international waters and all countries should condemn it as such, otherwise the occupation of vessels off the coast of Somalia may well be seen to be legal. What the Isralei's have done is no better than what Somali pirates have done.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:16 PM

Bloody Monday

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:21 PM

Yes John, I was responding to the dismissive comment by Bill D. But my example wasn't strictly appropriate to this situation..

Otherwise, I agree with Paul Burke making the point about single-interest states.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:11 PM

A reconciliation process on the South African model- we are talking about a similar situation to the ending of the Boer state- in which both Israel and Palestine are placed under international jurisdiction, all religious privileges in both states de- recognised, illegal settlers given the choice of returning to Israel or becoming full Palestinian citizens without special privileges, a water commission appointed to correct the imbalance in those rights, an arms commission to regulate all clandestine WMDs, an open door to Europe and the USA for all those who can not live with a non- apartheid state.

Just for starters.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:11 PM

How are we going to get any solution when people think stupidly?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:18 PM

If it isn't a declared war, John, it is a defacto war. Same difference. People are dying, injustices are being heaped upon civilians and nations in the area.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:22 PM

Specifically who did what to whom and when is still uncertain as I write this.

Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions.

There is a significant pall around this whole affair to indicate that it has been stage managed precisely to lend support to such outlandish statements as the title of this thread or the message from Paul Burke, above.

There is a significant irony here. I think the tactic of casting support for the innocent Palestinian civilians against the bloodthirsty Israeli state is getting perceived as just that, and is getting a little old. Let's see how long the manufactured state of world outrage lasts.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians live miserably, Israel's marginalization continues, and a buildup to something more sinister, more outrageous, and considerably more bloodthirsty continues.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:49 PM

"Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions."

Its called civil disobedience.

It worked for Ghandi.

It worked for Martin Luther King.

It worked for them because it made very clear who had the moral high ground.


So let me get this straight ... the crack force of elite commandos, armed to the teeth, who abseiled uninvited onto a ship in international waters with the express intentiopn of Hijacking it, were only acting in self defence when they shot at least 40 people, killing 19 of them?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:50 PM

Video showing Israeli soldiers being greeted as they arrive on board the Turkish ship, Mavi Marmara. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:00 PM

Israel spokesman reaction to raid on Gaza convoy

http://vodpod.com/watch/3739834-israel-spokesman-reaction-to-raid-on-gaza-convoy

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:01 PM

Seen it bobad - I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship.

This despite a white flag being flown.

Regardless of which, this was a civilian ship in international waters being boarded by a force whose sole purpose was to hijack it.

The idea that the civilians on board the ship were the agressors only makes sense if you are high on crack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:06 PM

"I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship."

Oh yes, and that there were wounded passengers.



The Purpose, intent and cargo of the ship were transparent for all to investigate. Thet were completely open and that is why there were so many oservers from the media and from internatonal parliaments on board.

The only secrecy involved was when The Israeli Navy imposed a blackout.

The only unknowns exist After the hijacking.


The Israeli spokesman is Lying.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:25 PM

The question "who started it?" is, contrary to some views expressed here, very important indeed.

Could it perhaps have been the European Zionists that invaded Palestine (in a flotilla of boats, ironically) in the late '40s to embark on the first modern terror campaign; assassinations, bombings of the civilian population in hotels and restaurants and market-places?

Yes, it was. So now we know who started it. And we certainly know who is perpetuating it.

North Americans, jeesh. Jews invade Palestine and ghetto-ise the natives. And then in your view, it is the uppity, unreasonable natives that are the cause of all the troubles. Where do you get that idea from? The push west? Mexico? Yes, it all starts to make sense. But of course you're not colonialists at all, that accusation is still reserved for us isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:27 PM

The Military was used - thus it is a War Crime. A State of War already exists due to the blockade, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:34 PM

"Well, I'm not condoning the attack..... On the other hand, Israel is at war and Gaza is blockaded"
Israel is not at watr - it has invaded someone elses territory in order to settle on it.
Sorry - you are condoning the attack.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:51 PM

Someone has deleted a response to one of my potsts; idiotic though it was, it wasn't objectionable in any way. Moderators: this topic is important, inasfar as anything in the forum is. Please allow all reasonably expressed opinions to appear.

---

Please read the first message in this thread. No guest posts here. --Mod

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 May 10 - 06:52 PM

I saw/heard someone on BBC tonight saying that the commandos did not have machine guns but PAINT guns!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:15 PM

In any event, it looks like they sure pissed off Turkey.

   "Otherwise, I agree with Paul Burke making the point about single-interest states."

            I agree with Paul and Crow Sister as well.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:12 PM

"... the dismissive comment by Bill D."

It was not 'dismissive'. It was a short version of 15 paragraphs noting how you can blame EITHER side, depending on your subjective point of view and what your basic premises are and which 'events' you use as your starting point!

"but, Daddy, he started it!" might be true, IF my little brother ate one of MY candies from my table, and not true IF I had taken more than my share from the bag when he wasn't looking. And we could all blame Daddy for not supervising the division.

So...do we blame the UN for agreeing to give Israel that land? Or the Israelis for interpreting the gift too broadly? Or the Muslims in the Middle-East for being unwilling to share?....or the Germans for creating sympathy for the Jews? Or ...or... just the basic old human 'my tribe is more important than your tribe' attitude?

I have watched YEARS of copy & paste 'proof' of who was to blame for both general & specific conflicts in that area. It is as clear as who is to blame in Ireland, the Baltics, Indo-China, or street gangs in Los Angeles.

"We have met the enemy, and it is US!"
                            Pogo Possum

...oh, sorry to have interrupted those of you who know the answers...please carry on...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:16 PM

To those who wish to consider my comments as condoning an attack or defending disproportionate response to provocations...please read for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 12:07 AM

"The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port."

Is Gaza under blockade, or not? If it is, then the aid would not have been delivered and that's a lie. If it is not, there is no excuse for the raid. Choose your poison.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:38 AM

This is another sad episode in the seemingly never-ending war between Palestinians and Israelis. Both people in my opinion have legitimate grievances and aspirations. In this case the Freedom Flotilla was challenging Israel's right to blockade the coast of Gaza. As mentioned earlier above:

"Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions."

As I recall such action is exactly what the Israelis did to break the British blockade of Palestine after World War 2, as was dramatized in the novel and film EXODUS.

Looking at the Israelis video, it's certainly apparent that the rappelling Israelis commandos were indeed attacked with metal posts, chairs, and anything else that was readily available. It is not at all clear what action by the Israelis provoked the attack, given that the Israelis confiscated video by others (but some will surface soon, I imagine).

On balance I would assume that the Israelis will lose in this incident more from world public opinion that will the Palestinians and their supporters.

Such words of wisdom!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM

I am not an expert on the law of the sea, but I suspect that the international protocols that permit aggressive action in support of a blockade only apply to a lawful blockade, and I am doubtful whether this one is so.

If war had been declared then the Geneva convention would apply and many many of the Israeli actions over the years would have ben contrary to that.

I understood Menzies Campbell to say earlier today that probably the law of the vessel was Turkish, so I am unclear that the use of automatic rifles against people armed with chair legs was lawful force. I suspect it was not.

Er - no, I don't think they were painball guns. Why on earth would anyone have been carrying paintball guns, and how would they have killed so many with them?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:37 AM

Why on earth would anyone have been carrying paintball guns, and how would they have killed so many with them?

Lead poisoning?

Y'all do realize there is no forseeable end to this? Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region. And when it comes to history of the region the faults of many over all these years make it impossible to ever agree on what can, will, or should be done. Nothing will.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM

I would not hav e liked toi be the first guy down the rope being greeted by the "peace activists".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:51 AM

Piracy is the correct word for what happened.

Defending oneself against piracy in international waters is never a crime. The killing of those defenders however, is a crime, and one worthy of the severest penalty.

Israel is out of control, and unless the West stops supporting its illegal bullying of its neighbours, there will be a catastrophic meltdown in the region.

This is not a case of Jews against Muslims, and it should be made clear that this is so.

Two states are involved, Israel and Palestine, and trying to pretend that it is a religious conflict obscures the real issue.

Israel must be made to understand that it can no longer rely on the "Victims of the Holocaust" excuse for its current behaviour.

The Holocaust killed six million Jews, who were German, French, Polish, Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, Romanian, Russian, and on and on and on.

To try to pretend that they are all children of a single nation is nonsense. They share a single religion, and for that they were persecuted. That does not confer upon them the right to occupy an ever increasing portion of somebody else's country.

Israel is a State, and there is no other state which would be supported in annexing its neighbours' territory, by the Western nations.

It's time to tell them enough is enough, or we will have a war in the Middle East which will surpass, in ferocity, anything seen hitherto on this planet.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 11:02 AM

"Y'all do realize there is no forseeable end to this?'

Too true Spaw.

As a race it seems we won't be happy until we're all neck deep in the blood, piss, shit and gore of the millions of innocents who die every year as a consequence of some asinine philosophic, religious, nationalistic or economic action perpetrated by those without the wit or insight to even understand their or any else's own massive failings; who can't see beyond their own need to own, control and dominate. The sad thing is that buy and larger we let the bastards get away with it, scared of what the price we might have to pay for any real progress.

As for the UN - a talking shop for those poultroons, lickspittles and feckless tosspots who have to huddle together and reassure themselves they are 'doing the right thing' despite knowing they're not but being too afraid to let it all go for fear of what they'd lose. It's a commercial outlet these days, bereft of moral authority as those whom would say they serve/rule/occupy/oppress* us strike secret or unreported deals in back rooms in their ivory tower of glass and hipocrisy in NYC and then head downtown for a cocktail and a blowjob. They might as well, apparently they can't or won't enforce their resolutions unless it seems some sort of commercial interest is served; ask the Tibetans, an even more abandoned people than the Palestinians.

Fuck them all.

*Delete where applicable according to your countries type of government

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM

Piracy, as noted above, is the proper word. Those attacked defended themselves with whatever they had, but too bad they didn't have AK-47s.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region.

In the same way as Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville. Looking back, both those episodes significantly changed things. I suspect the same will be true of Bloody Monday.

I assume that there will be far greater support for a boycott of Israeli goods and so forth, analogous to that which contributed to the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

"Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region."

In the same way as Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville. Looking back, both those episodes significantly changed things. I suspect the same will be true of Bloody Monday.

I assume that there will be far greater support for a boycott of Israeli goods and so forth, analogous to that which contributed to the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

from this article.



"
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman discussed the incident with counterparts from various countries, among them UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs Catherine Ashton and German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle.

In his discussion with Ban on Tuesday, Lieberman stated that while 500 people were killed in violent incidents around the world in May alone, it was Israel that was being condemned - and for defensive actions.

The two spoke following Tuesday morning's Security Council resolution calling for an impartial investigation of the matter, as well as Ban's request for a "thorough investigation" of the incident.

Lieberman stated that the hypocrisy and double standards taking root in the international community regarding Israel were to be regretted, stressing that Monday's raid was a reflection of the rights of IDF soldiers to defend themselves against attack.

The activists on board the ships, he said, had prepared clubs, metal crowbars and knives in advance of the confrontation - obviously intending to take a strike at Israel's sovereignty. He added that in light of these facts, Tuesday's Security Council resolution was unacceptable.

'Distinguish between terrorists and freedom fighters'

On Monday, Lieberman told Ashton and Westerwelle to adopt an objective approach and make the distinction between "freedom fighters" and terrorist supporters like those who had been aboard the ships.

Lieberman told the two foreign ministers that though Israel had tried to conduct dialogue with the organizers of the flotilla days before the ships neared Israeli territorial waters, such overtures were rejected - as was a request by Israel that the organizers ask Hamas to allow Red Cross visitation for captured IDF soldier Gilad Schalit.

"What happened ... was pre-planned violence, and Israeli does not intend to allow any attack on its sovereignty by groups of terror-supporters and anarchists," read a Foreign Ministry press release.

Livni: It's impossible to directly compare Israel, Hamas

Kadima and opposition leader Tzipi Livni, meanwhile, expressed full confidence Tuesday in the "principles" of Israel's soldiers, which "remain unchanging even when they join the IDF ... and even when they take over a ship and are attacked and beaten almost to death on board."

Livni criticized the world's response to the incident, saying it was impossible to make a direct comparison between Israel and Hamas. "I understand the personal pain that is expressed concerning the incidents that occurred here, but there is not one democracy in the world that can generate a comparison between murderers and those who defend themselves or kill without intending to."

"Israel and Hamas are not two sides of the same equation," she stressed.

Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz said on Tuesday that in seizing the provocative flotilla heading to Gaza, the IDF acted with determination and courage. He added that Israel exercised restraint - sometimes too much restraint.

"Israel is a small country and needs to protect itself and there was no other alternative than to defend ourselves," said Steinitz at a ministry conference in Jerusalem on Tuesday. "It is clear that the real mission of the flotilla was not to transfer humanitarian aid, which could have entered through the border crossings at the Ashdod port. Instead, the real mission was to break the naval siege to Gaza. The water siege is not perfect, but [it is] essential. It is necessary to understand that a breakage of the siege would mean an increase in terrorism and rockets against Israeli citizens. We don't have a choice, if our country needs to protect lives, we must defend ourselves."

Steinitz added that the State of Israel last year transferred 1 millions tons of food and equipment to Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM

And Israel bombed out their buildings, killed many civilians and disrupted life for Gazans.
Then allows in a little food and medicine.

Gaza 'city' has over 400,000 inhabitants, the largest city in their occupied territory; the strip has 1.5 million.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM

The amount of aid that Isael permits into Gaza is I think about 20% of that recognised to be necessary even to rebuild teh buildings and infrasturucture destroyed by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

And the number of missles smuggled into Gaza, instead of food and medicine?

And the amount of aid that Egypt allows in? Please compare what THEY allow as oppoed to the Israelis- then tell me why there are NO comments about the "evil Egyptians"


Lets go back to the LAST borders that the Arabs nations agreed to- the 1923 partion ( By the UK, as part of the peace treaty ending WW I and creating Trukey, Iraq, Iran, Lebenon...) of Mandate Palestine into Arab ( Transjordan, 77% of the Mandate) and Jewish ( the remaing 23%) Homelands. Care to have everyone go back to that?????

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade

another discussion of blockade

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM

Israel made a big mistake. But the pacifists weren't pacifists, they were political activists supporting one side (Hamas Palestine and the whole world of radical islamism) that won't make any agreement with the other (Israel). Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville are not good examples, because at last they gave way to a solution good for every people. There's no solution but the destruction of Israel in the aim of Hamas and its supporters. Israel made a big mistake, but it is difficult to deal with a counterpart that denies your right to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM

It's time for the World Community to disinvest in Israel. The Netanyahu Government have become the new Nazis. How ironic.

AIPAC should hang its head in shame.

Jews don't have to be Zionists. Many Jews worldwide reject the Theocracy that has become the State of Israel.

It's a long way away from what Ben Gurion had in mind.

The new Exodus must be out of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM

For an Israeli perspective on blockade, which does not seem to conform entirely to the contents of my previous links, see

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza_flotilla_maritime_blockade_Gaza-Legal_background_31-May-2

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:06 PM

The Mandate called for for the rights of non-jews to be respected.

Ben Gurion (1937) wrote that he was in favour of partition because he didn't envision a partial Jewish state as the end of the process. "What we want is not that the country be united and whole but that it be united and the whole country be Jewish (bold face mine).
He explained that a first-class Jewish army would permit zionists to settle in the rest of the country with or without the consent of the Arabs ("Letters....", 1971, Univ. Pittsburgh Press).

(From Wikipedia and Encyc. britannica)

The policy envisioned by Ben Gurion is being pursued. Destruction of Palestinian Arab homeland and domination of the Palestinian Arabs as a slave population is still the Israeli objective.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM

Q,

"The Mandate called for for the rights of non-jews to be respected."

The mandate did NOT allow for the creation of Jordan ( Transjordan) as the ARAB Homeland, with NO Jews being allowed to settle in that 77% of the Mandate area.

The remainder of the Mandate ( 23%, the Jewish Homeland) had NO restrictions on who settled there.

I guess you mean that ONLY the rights of Non-Jews were to be respected.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM

"Destruction of Palestinian Arab homeland and domination of the Palestinian Arabs as a slave population is still the Israeli objective. "


False statement.

Israel has NEVER threatened the existance of Jordan.

Israel has never used Palestinian Arabs as slves- that has been reserved for thier Arab brothers in Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, and other Arab nations, where they could live and work but never become citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM

BTW, transjordan was given to the Arabs in 1923- a few years BEFORE 1937....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM

In the formation of Israel, 80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed from the land by Israeli zionists and not allowed to return.

The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years.

Stateless people forced to live on charity, without hope, are slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM

"""I have watched YEARS of copy & paste 'proof' of who was to blame for both general & specific conflicts in that area. It is as clear as who is to blame in Ireland, the Baltics, Indo-China, or street gangs in Los Angeles."""

...and here we go again!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM

Q,

'In the formation of Israel, 80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed from the land by Israeli zionists and not allowed to return.'

1. they were invited to stay by the Israeli governement, and choose t leave based on promises by the Arab League that they could have it all after the Jews were driven out.

2. Nearly 100% of the Jews in Arab nations were "ethnically cleansed" , and resettled ONLY by Israel. 820,000 Jews vs the 640,000 Palestinian Arabs that fled.





"The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years."

From 1948 to 1967, the entire West Bank and Jeruselam were under Arab ( Jordanian) control. Please tell me who put the Palestinians into camps instead of letting them settle?





"Stateless people forced to live on charity, without hope, are slaves. "

So why didn't the other Arab nations allow them to settle, as the Israelis allowed Jewish refugees from the world over to do? They are the ones keeping the Palestinians as slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

"80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed "

And this figure is false.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:02 PM

""The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years."

From 1948 to 1967, the entire West Bank and Jeruselam were under Arab ( Jordanian) control. Please tell me who put the Palestinians into camps instead of letting them settle?

"



BTW, where did all the Jews that were in the areas controlled by Arabs go to between 1948 and 1967???

Care to enlighten me as you claim the Israelis should lie down and let the Palestinians cut their throats?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM

On 24th May in the Humanitarian Voyage thread, which received little attention, I posted a link to a Q & A article in the Gulf News which appears to be fairly prophetic

"Will Israel allow the vessels to enter?

Israel controls Gaza's territorial waters, and has warned campaigners not to attempt to break the blockade, saying it will use "any means necessary" to stop the flotilla.

Israel has, in the past, stopped the flotilla by ramming it with gunboats, towing it to its own ports as well as taking in passengers from international waters and detaining them.

The Israeli navy has reportedly been conducting practice exercises in order to block the Freedom Flotilla.
Organisers have said they are undeterred and are determined to continue.
The presence of high profile personalities on the ships gives the campaigners leverage over Israel, but the state has not hesitated to imprison prominent people in the past, including former congresswoman and US presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney.

Some of the vessels will be flying the Turkish flag. If such a vessel is attacked in international waters, a major diplomatic incident could follow"

thread.cfm?threadid=129679#2913025

In this thread I also referred to Gisha

"an Israeli not-for-profit organization, founded in 2005, whose goal is to protect the freedom of movement of Palestinians, especially Gaza residents. Gisha promotes rights guaranteed by international and Israeli law.

Gisha is operated by a professional staff and guided by a board that includes legal academics and practitioners, women and men, Arabs and Jews, who have helped shape Israeli human rights law through their advocacy and writings.

Gisha is registered in Israel as an independent, non-partisan, not-for-profit organization. Gisha is generously supported by donations from Israel and abroad."

Please remember that not all Jewish people support the Zionist movement or the settlements which are considered a "violation of international law" and approximately 100 of which do not even meet the legal criteria of Israeli law but represent a fundamentalist imperitive
Recognition of the second class status of the Palestinians in Isreal or the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is not anti-semitism!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM

You're right, Bill D

Simple fact is that something must be done to stop Israel from perpetuating this cycle of death. They *are* the new Nazis. They have squeezed the Palestinians into a ghetto where they suffer death by a thousand cuts - something that creates new generations of human beings who are dehumanised and have nothing to lose when they blow their own bodies up in order to hit back at their persecutors in some (futile) way.

For gawd's sake, if we (Britain) had behaved towards the USA-funded Irish terrorists as Israel deals with Hamas, where would that have go us all?

Like South African apartheid, we need boycotts and sanctions. We need to make Israel feel what most right thinking people feel - that it is a callous, bloodthirsy pariah state, evert bit as vile and bankrupt as North Korea or Iran or the Taleban. We need to take away its military - and certainly its nuclear - capabilities and send in an UN force to roll back its borders to UN-agreed positions and maintain a peace for as long as it takes for the groundswell of emotional support for Hamas to disappear.

And of course Hamas must be disarmed and policed. But that is easy. Be tough on Israeli human rights abuses is to be tough on the causes of Hamas. Enforce some basic fairness and Hamas will wither away.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:39 PM

The United States has blocked demands for an international inquiry into al Qaeda's attack on the World Trade Center that left almost three thousand people dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by al Qaeda.

Self regulation, that's the way to do it.



















Oops, I misread the report.










The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:42 PM

BTW Royston, much as I dislike Hamas and Islamic fundamentalism (and much as most Palestinians dislike fundamentalism too), don't forget that the Israeli blockade was a response to the DEMOCRATIC election of Hamas, in a process that was agreed by international observers to be free and fair.

The West can't preach democracy, but only accept the result if it's the "right" one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM

I should point out that I understand the laws of blockade require blockaded ships from non-belligerents to be escorted to a neutral port

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM

Maritime Law

Israelis opened fire before boarding the flotilla (the live feed video evidence supports this testimony)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

The statement I hear is that the Israelis spent 6 hours telling the ships to stop and be escorted into port for inspection BEFORE they put people aboard them.

"I should point out that I understand the laws of blockade require blockaded ships from non-belligerents to be escorted to a neutral port "

Had the ships left the blockaded area and returned to a neutral port, they would not have been boarded. Si Israel is in accord with the laws of blockade.


I note the UN condemned the actionsof Israel immediately ( within hours) yet is NOW calling for a complete report and investigation.

Didn't the Red Queen act that way, demanding the verdict and execution first and THEN the trial????

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM

It doesn't matter what the Israelis told people to do. Under international law, they had no right to tell anyone to do anything at all in international waters.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:43 PM

"Had the ships left the blockaded area and returned to a neutral port, they would not have been boarded. Si Israel is in accord with the laws of blockade."

Whether you believe the sea blokade of Gaza is legitimate or not, and this is very debatable, the fact remains that it applied to the waters within 20 miles of Gaza and NOT to international waters which is where the flotilla came under attack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM

It should also be understood that under international maritime law, the Turkish ship is legally considered to be Turkish territory. Turkey is a member of NATO. Israel is not. Turkey could, if it wanted to, consider the attack on its territory in international waters an act of war, subject to Article V of NATO, which obligates the other NATO members to come to its assistance when attacked by a non-NATO country.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM

Israel's Sharpville - no less.
And they crouch behind the dead of Auschwitz to excuse such actions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

Meanwhile, the Rachel Corrie is now on its way to Gaza, and a new humanitarian aid flotilla is being gotten ready to make another attempt to break the blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

"Didn't the Red Queen act that way, demanding the verdict and execution first and THEN the trial????"

Execution?

How many Israelis were executed?

None?

How many civilians were executed by the Israelis?

19?


That number is higher than the number of Israelis who died in the alleged "war" of january 2009.


Bruce, I think your choice of words and indeed analogy could have been better.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM

"Meanwhile, the Rachel Corrie is now on its way to Gaza, and a new humanitarian aid flotilla is being gotten ready to make another attempt to break the blockade."

And I pray that the Turkish Government and all other Governments, including the Israeli government, stay the hell out of it.

Israel can withstand any military assault - in fact any such offensive makes them stronger.

However they are powerless in the face of a transparent humanitarian campaign, and can have no answer to civil disobedience.

The key for Gaza is No-Violent Non-Cooperation.

Rachel Corrie may yet do some bulldozing of her own and help bring down the wall from beyond the grave.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

If a blockade were imposed on Israel that would have the same legal status as the blockade by Israel on the Gaza strip.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Lox

The number is presently reported as 10 dead.

Too many, as all agree- but the determination of who attacked who is still to be determined. There was resistance only on one ship- and the video shows the passengers attacking the commandos as they came aboard.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

The live feed shows people being attacked and it shows wounded members of the flotilla prior to any of the Israelis landing. The Israeli government video only shows what happened after they landed. The live feed shows what happened before they landed. This is indisputable proof that the Israelis opened fire before landing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM

"The number is presently reported as 10 dead."

Depends on the report.

Doctors working on the scene have suggested as many as 15 died.

Early reports from ISRAELI media sources suggested 19.


"There was resistance only on one ship- and the video shows the passengers attacking the commandos as they came aboard."


The cameras can't see the bullets.

There is testimony that there were bullets flying before the troops landed.

Bear in mind that the Israelis imposed a blackout when they attacked, up until which pointthe flotilla had been entirely transparent in every respect.

The only secrecy has been that imposed by the Israeli military.

The Israelis can't imprison everyone who was on the ship.

So far they control all the information.

This will not last.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM

Having said that, however, under international maritime law, the people on the flotilla ships had an absolute right to defend themselves against the Israeli invasion of their ships and their attempt to take them over. The act of boarding the ships without permission was in itself an act of aggression that is illegal under international maritime law.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM

When I reflect on the Turkey, (Turks, Kurds and Armenians), I cannot put events of 1915 the G-word out of my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Gee, who attacked whom? Did the blockade runners board the Israeli ships, or did the Israelis board the blockade runners' ships? There's your answer.

You're wrong, Spaw, there is a forseeable end to this, which Israel has been steadily working toward for 60 years. Chomp off larger and larger chunks of the West Bank until there's nowhere for the Palestinians to live and no way for them to make a living. They all go somewhere else. Then start doing the same for Gaza (if anybody is still alive there after the starvation blockade). Problem solved.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:50 PM

Have to agree, Ed T, the Turks should have kept the hell out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

As this certainly was not the first naval blockade of a nation, a good question is does international law permitted capturing a vessel attempting to breach a naval blockade, even in international waters? The answer may be surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:00 PM

Was/is the blockade legal?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM

I would say that nobody from the US or the UK is in any position to say that international law and international agreements like NATO shouldn't apply to countries that have genocides in their previous history, considering the histories of those two countries.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:08 PM

I'd say that's irrelevant. No nation has clean hands; that doesn't make what Israel is doing okay. The whole "you're in no position to talk" thing just gives Israel carte blanche to undertake any atrocities it cares to. But then again the support of the US does much the same thing. As witness the last 50 years.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

"nobody from the US or the UK is in any position to say that international law and international agreements like NATO shouldn't apply to countries that have genocides in their previous history, considering the histories of those two countries".

And, to the contrary, many NATO and western nations have had direct experience in invading and blockading other countries, and killing those opposing such adventures.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

The blockade is illegal under the Geneva conventions because it is a form of collective punishment.

There is also the problem of the legal status of Gaza. If it is under occupation by the government of Israel, it is an illegal occupation. If it is a part of Israel, it is illegal because it is illegal to take territory by force. If it is not under occupation, then Israel has no right to control its borders.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

So you guys are saying that maritime law only applies to those whom the people with the most guns say it does. Interesting. You may be right. Of course, that is the "might makes right" ideology, and in that respect is no different from any other regime that practices it, including the ones we don't like.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

Nobody has yet answered my question: is there a blockade, or isn't there? If there is, it's nonsense to say Israel will pass through anything anybody wishes to send into Gaza. Well, actually it's not so much nonsense as a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM

You asked if it was legal. I answered that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM

In most cases the big guns make the international rules, and bend them to suite their interests. History is full of blockades, belligerent, Pacific and otherwise. Some have caused war, some reduced the liklihood of war, and many, like this one, have been punitive actions by a larger (more powerful) nation against a smaller, less powerful one...designed to make it give in to the larger nations interests.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

I can't argue with that, Ed, in practice. But it's still might makes right, which makes those who practice it no better than Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

As to whether it is legal, I don't feel it has in fact been answered. It was clearly was a naval blockde, regardless of what you call it.   But, remember the USA called their naval blockade of Cuba a quarantine, to avoid United Nations criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM

Palestine isn't a nation. It's a territory completely subjugated by Israel. It is, in effect, a ghetto where all the Undesirables are contained as if in quarantine (great word, Ed). Israel pretends it's not part of Israel because if it were they'd have to extend the rights of citizens to its inhabitants. But it's not a state itself, and not part of any other state, and completely under the rule of Israel. What other country could it be?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM

I believe it's been answered by the United Nations, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM

The point is that no matter what status one applies to it, the blockade is illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law, as is Israel's control of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

I should rephrase that:

The point is that no matter what status one applies to Gaza, the blockade is illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law, as is Israel's control of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

Israel claims that Turkish-based IHH, responsible for the flotilla funds and finances Hamas initiatives(I believe that is listed in some countries as a terriorist group) around the world.

They cite sources, including this report:

http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

"I believe it's been answered by the United Nations, Ed."

Specifics

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

The existance of a blockade is a simple fact

however....

"Israel has never published a list of banned items, saying it approves requests on a case-by-case basis.

Items allowed have changed over time, which has left humanitarian organisations and commercial importers constantly attempting to guess what will be approved.
The court case has been brought by the Israeli human rights group, Gisha.
The group has been trying, for more than a year, using freedom of information legislation, to squeeze information from the state about what exactly is allowed for import to Gaza, and why.

In January, Gisha, took the Israeli authorities to court, to try to force them to provide the information.
Gisha's director, Sari Bashi, says she is no security expert, "but preventing children from receiving toys, preventing manufacturers from getting raw materials - I don't see how that's responsive to Israeli security needs."

And she says that some of the prohibitions appear to be absurdly arbitrary: "I certainly don't understand why cinnamon is permitted, but coriander is forbidden. Is there something more dangerous about coriander?
Is coriander more critical to Gaza's economy than cinnamon? This is a policy that appears to make no sense."
She argues that if there is a logic behind such decisions, the military should reveal what it is


GOODS ALLOWED INTO GAZA - beginning of May
Canned meat and tuna, but not canned fruit
Mineral water, but not fruit juice
Sesame paste (tahini) but not jam
Tea and coffee but not chocolate

The lack of clarity causes immense frustration not just among Gazans, but among aid groups, diplomats, and the United Nations - which has described Israel's blockade as "collective punishment"

The problem, they say, is not just the shortages themselves, but the unpredictability and changing nature of what is permitted for import.
Israeli officials have said, in the past, that they are concerned that building materials in particular could be misappropriated by Hamas for military ends.

But some Israeli commentators - even those who advocate a tough stance against Hamas - say that the strategy behind the much wider blockade is ill-defined, and harmful to Israel's international standing.

The BBC has received information from reliable sources that there are currently 81 items that are approved for import - from kidney beans to tinned meat - and as of March, shoes.

Among the large range of goods currently forbidden are jam, chocolate, wood for furniture, fruit juice, textiles, and plastic toys.

A 13-page submission by the Israeli authorities to the Tel Aviv District Court raises more question s than it answers.

It does set the context for the blockade: in what Israel considers to be its existential conflict with Hamas.
But it will not satisfy those calling for Israel to be more open about one of its most contentious policies."

From a BBC report May 3rd

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

No, that wasn't to you Carol C. I want to know if somebody who supports Israel in this, really thinks they would pass everything through they got when they're not doing so now, and they claim there's a blockade on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:48 PM

So then Israel should have no problem with the Rachel Corrie, then, since it is not IHH.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

My last was for Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM

The list may be puzzling to us....but I am also puzzled by many government lists, and especially when it comes to security and terror-fear, even when I take an airplane.

I don't see why cinnamon or coriander is on a list is a humanitarian issue? Governments like to make lists, governments are bureaucratic and often don't make sense...even ours.

If one knows that there is a blockade, and one is entering an area of conflict...it seems wise, yes, even common sense, to pay heed and not do anything that would spook those with guns.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM

Resolution 242, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM

The flotilla, not Rachel Corrie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:56 PM

The Rachel Corrie is a part of the flotilla. It is on its way to Gaza now. It is from Ireland and is not a part of IHH.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:00 PM

Resolution 242, 1967. I suspect the question related to the current situation and blockade....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:04 PM

242 never stopped applying to Gaza as well as the West Bank, Ed. It still applies today.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:05 PM

I know your post is going to be deleted, GUEST, but you should never say "the Jews" in the way you just did. There are many, many Jews who are working very hard and making enormous sacrifices to help correct this situation, and they deserve our gratitude and respect.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM

The Irish-flagged MV Rachel Corrie cargo ship was referred to in the earlier thread 'Humanitarian Voyage'); her passage to join the Freedom Flotilla was most likely delayed because of sabotage by Israelis, but she is now heading for Gaza on her own

The humanitarian aid attempt has the full support of the Irish government.

The Irish prime minister, Brian Cowen, has warned Israel that it will face "the most serious consequences" in the event that any harm comes to Irish citizens on board the humanitarian relief vessel.

Mr Cowen said Ireland's longstanding position was that the Israeli blockade of Gaza was "immoral and counterproductive" and should be ended.

"Israel must listen and respond to the clear concerns of the international community on this issue. To do otherwise will only serve to reinforce the position of the extremists on both sides and jeopardise the hope of achieving some urgently needed political progress in the region, which the current proximity talks represent," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM

Yeah, there's no way I'm going to allow an anonymous guest to post racist or anti-Semitic crap. And on this thread, no guest posts are allowed at all.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:13 PM

"The Gaza Strip has been under a heightened Israeli blockade since the militant group Hamas seized control in June 2007.In September 2007, the Israeli government declared the Strip a "hostile entity" in response to continued rocket attacks on southern Israel. During the six month truce between Israel and Hamas, which began in June 2008, and in early 2010, the volume and range of goods increased with trucks of shoes and clothes entering Gaza." and said it would start cutting fuel imports

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM

I'd say that GUEST Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM is pretty certainly a phony trying to bolster the lie that critics of Israel are anti-semites. And the sooner the post gets deleted the better.

Good to see that this has forced the Egyptians to stop collaborationg in the Gaza blockade, and to open the crossing into Gaza that they control.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM

Ed - please read about the recent 'imports of shoes and clothes' on the previous thread
Clothes and shoes have been on the banned list for 3 years; many of those now allowed in have been held in 'storage' by the Israelis for the whole three years and it is estimated as much as 50% has actually deteriorated beyond use.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM

Irish aid boat holds course towards Gaza despite Israel warning:

The final boat in the Gaza aid flotilla was sailing at full speed towards the territory's coast tonight despite warnings that it would be intercepted by Israeli forces.

The MV Rachel Corrie, a 40-year-old cargo ship bought by the Irish arm of the Free Gaza Movement, was delayed and avoided capture during Monday night's assault. Tonight it was still in international waters about two days from Gaza, carrying a consignment of aid and 19 activists and crew, among them five Irish nationals, the organisation said.

The Irish taoiseach, Brian Cowen, warned Israel tonight that he expected no violence against those on the Rachel Corrie.

"If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences," he said, calling on Israel to guarantee the vessel safe passage through the military blockade of Gaza.

The ship, named after the 23-year-old American killed in Gaza in 2003 while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer demolishing a Palestinian home, had halted in the Mediterranean following the assault while those on board – among them the Nobel peace laureate Máiread Maguire and Denis Halliday, a retired senior UN diplomat – discussed whether they should continue.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:25 PM

"50% has actually deteriorated beyond use."

Which implies that some of the rest may have deteriorated, but not yet beyond use.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:25 PM

242 required that Israel withdraw from any territory that it took in 1967 and to not interfere with the politics or borders of any other state. At the time, Gaza would have been included in that as a part of Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:28 PM

I don't trust the Egyptian government. I think they've only opened the crossing in order to help the Israeli government try to discredit the Rachel Corrie. I think that if Israel takes the Rachel Corrie, Egypt will close Rafah again very soon afterward.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:30 PM

"242 never stopped applying to Gaza as well as the West Bank, Ed. It still applies today"

Sorry, CarolC...that may make sense to you, but not to me. It is just much more complex than that..involves more than Israel..and, much water, from both sides, has gone under the bridge since 1967.

I certainly do not condone or praise Israel for holding back supplies that are being held back. In fact, I feel they should end the blockade. However, I recognize that this is a very complex topic (from many sides), and all involved have a legitimate reason to fear the other side and their future plight and security.

That being said, let's not fool ourselves by believing that many other nations, some stellar UN members, have not done bad things...even violated or skirted human rights and UN laws,starved and killed others, led blockades and invaded other nations.

Would I take on a nation blockading another because it feels threatened by it (right or wrong)? No. Should I be surprised if these actions (good or less so) presented threats to my safety? No
Should we condemn actions before we know the facts? A good question.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM

""The activists on board the ships, he said, had prepared clubs, metal crowbars and knives in advance of the confrontation - obviously intending to take a strike at Israel's sovereignty. He added that in light of these facts, Tuesday's Security Council resolution was unacceptable.""

So, Israel now claims sovereignty over international waters and Turkish shipping?

That dog ain't gonna hunt, no matter how they spin it, and iron bars against assault rifles and grenades isn't resistance, it's suicide.

Boarding a foreign owned ship in international waters is PIRACY, and if the crew resist, they are doing their job.

Israel should cease and desist from illegal actions, and concentrate on her own territory.

A little compromise here would be beneficial to all concerned.

You cannot win hearts and minds by slaying ten for one. Even Hitler with vastly greater resources couldn't manage that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM

According to the Palestinian Chamber of Commerce in Gaza last September, there were currently over 1,700 containers of imported goods ordered by Gaza merchants being 'stored' in Israel and the West Bank until they are allowed into Gaza.
A breakdown of the items listed by the Chamber of Commerce included clothing, shoes, electronics and toys.

Over half of the containers have been held in storage since 2007. The Chamber of Commerce reports direct losses of an estimated 10 million dollars, including storage and handling costs, and indirect losses in losing contracts and ties with outside suppliers.

On Aug 23 2009, the new school year began for nearly 450,000 school children in Gaza. but notebooks and other items needed for school have not been allowed into Gaza.
Nor has the construction material needed to repair the many schools damaged by Israeli shelling and bombing during Israel's three-week war on Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM

...a very complex topic... Yes indeed - after all, if they let tinned fruit into Gaza, people might throw them at Israeli tanks...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM

I keep reading stuff like "Hamas seized control" as if they had taken power in a miltary coup. Fact is, whatever you may think of Hamas, they were democratically elected by the people of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM

Well, Ed, while I would never try to suggest that no other countries have ever done bad things, the problem for me is that I am being made to pay for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So that makes me complicit, and gives me the responsibility to do whatever I can to try to correct the situation.

Nevertheless, Israel is in material breach of quite a few international laws, treaties, and UN resolutions, so it has no legal leg to stand on, for any reason, ever.

Now, if Israel should decide to annex Gaza and the West Bank, and extend citizenship and equal rights to all who live there, I would not see any need to keep working on behalf of Palestinian rights. Equally, if Israel would decide to withdraw to its pre-67 borders and leave Gaza and the West Bank alone, I would similarly not see any need to continue my work on behalf of Palestinian rights.

But as things are now, I have no other choice. And I really don't see it as being complicated at all. It's all quite simple, actually.

Anyway, Israel, in the form in which it now exists, will cease to exist sooner rather than later. It is committing suicide even as we speak.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:48 PM

CarolC
Nice to see that you do not see the Israel Palistian issue and history as complex. I suspect you stand with few, not with many on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:54 PM

"I keep reading stuff like "Hamas seized control" as if they had taken power in a miltary coup. Fact is, whatever you may think of Hamas, they were democratically elected by the people of Gaza".

I suspect you fail to include alot of hammas killing (including innocent children...also condemmed by the UN) in the mix of the democratically elected government...(not to mention fatah)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:56 PM

Nice to see that you do not see the Israel Palistian issue and history as comples. I suspect you stand with few, not with many on that one.

I think you're quite wrong about that, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM

It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, which has been going on for well over sixty years. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong - and both sides have committed atrocities in the name of what they see as right.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:02 PM

"I think you're quite wrong about that, Ed."
We agree to disagree on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:03 PM

Ed, It is important to be able to distinguish complexity from smokescreen.

I also have an interest in ensuring that the taxes I pay are not used by my government to fund the export of weapons that will then be used against Palestinian families.

That is very clear and simple.

There is currently no fear of my taxes being invested in weapons being used against Israelis.

On the other hand, It is also very clear to me that voluntary contributions made to help feed hungry palestinians and treat sick palestinians and build homes for homeless palestinians and schools and books for palestinian children, merit no cause for sanctions of any sort.

In fact I admire the bravery of such efforts as in this case they combine with the Israeli blockade to create a form of civil disobedience that has even greater moral standing than those practiced by Ghandi and Martin Luter King, as those examples of civil disobedience did not incorporate humanitarian aid.

This campaign is unique and its critics on a losing path.

The only thing that can damage this campaign now would be the interference of a military force such as Turkey.

Thankfully the Rachel Corrie is taking the initiative.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM

Two separate issues, Ed. The majority of Palestinians in the Gaza strip voted for Hamas because they did not feel adequately represented by Fatah.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM

The solution is not complex, Joe. We are only made to think it's complex so Israel will be able to continue its ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians until they are all gone.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

World opinion, for what it's worth, seems to be more critical of the Israelis than the Palestinians and their supporters.

The stupidity of the Israeli leadership at this point amazes me. What world do they live in?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:12 PM

Actually, the majority of Gazans didn't vote for Hamas. A plurality of them did. There were two different Fatah candidates running and the two of them together got more votes than Hamas, but Hamas won because they got the plurality. They are the democratically elected government of all of Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:14 PM

Ah, thank you Carol for putting the orthopedic shoes on me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:26 PM

"World opinion, for what it's worth, seems to be more critical of the Israelis than the Palestinians and their supporters".

I have found this to fluctuate...outside the clearly anti semetic folks (though I am certain they would be surprised that some find them so) and governments.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:29 PM

"I have found this to fluctuate..."

I have - amongst Israelis!


Not all critics of the Israeli government are gentiles and anti-semites.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:30 PM

The Canadian press has listed the names of three Canadians aboard the relief vessel. There may have been more, news of those aboard is slow in coming.
No report so far of injuries to Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM

Ed, public sentiment has been steadily shifting in favor of solidarity with the Palestinians for the last eight years or more. And it increases with every act of violence that Israel commits. This last one will prove to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM

"During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, nine international activists were killed during the Navy's takeover of the Mavi Marmara which was trying to break the Israel-imposed sea blockade on the Gaza Strip"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM

All of that stuff was planted by the Israelis, beardedbruce. The entire ship, its cargo, and all of the passengers were thoroughly inspected prior to its departure.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:38 PM

Funny how world public opinion at any point is not always much of a factor on how events evolve...or are viewed in the future.

Lets take the USA enrry into Iraq...most folks forget the world negativity at the time.

Look at the IRA killings in Ireland.

How about Russia's many historic invasions etc.

The Germans and Japanese, once dispised, are now viewed as friends around the world.

And there is China....and still there is China.

"History (and world public opinion) has shown that whoever wins the battle(s) or war(s) will be branded "truth". This is the course of human events, has and always will be this way. It doesn't matter who was right and who's cause was just; all that matters is whoever wins the battle is now "right" and the loser was a "terrorist" and enemy."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:40 PM

By the way, Israel knows it hasn't got a legal leg to stand on. It's releasing all of the people it kidnapped, including those who so bravely defended the ship from the Israeli terrorists, and whom the government of Israel said they were going to prosecute.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:46 PM

"bravely defended the ship from the Israeli terrorists"

CarolC, you seem to clearly see things from one side. I admit, there is comfort in that. I wish I could enjoy such comfort.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM

It's true, Ed. I see things entirely from the side of human rights and the rule of law. And you're right. There is great comfort in that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM

CarolC. I can say with no hesitation that I do admire your confidence that from your vantage point, that you know all the facts...and can conclude all conclusions on this and related matters.
And as someone once said:
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."


"Keep your stick on the ice"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:57 PM

"During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks."

The whole flotilla has been deliberately transparent and completely open from the start, having invited international observers from numerous international government and media organizations.

The only secrecy in the whole story began when The Israeli Military imposed an information blackout.

These facts do not run consistent with the idea that the Israeli military has somehow exposed some kind of hidden agenda, but rather suggests that they have tried to hide something.

This makes the plausibility of the above quoted claim very doubtful.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:03 PM

Ed, there really is no room for quibbling on what constitutes human rights or even the rule of law. And I don't need to know everything myself. There are international bodies that are responsible for knowing those things. All I have to do is look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:08 PM

And, then there is another perspective;
http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/Flotilla+fiasco+aboard+Mavi+Marmara/3096275/story.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:14 PM

And yet another perspective:
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/06/01/gaza-clash-turkish-charitys-terror-links/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM

The Calgary Herald is a part of Canwest Global, owned by Leonard Asper and his father Izzy; they support Jewish Zionist goals in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM

The first one ignores the fact that the Israelis opened fire before they boarded the ship, which makes the response from the people on the ship an act of self-defense. The second ignores the fact that not all of the boats were IHH, but all of them were attacked and kidnapped. People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:28 PM

The US Government used to class Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

The fact that Fox news has supported this claim to be true of the activists on board the ship should be no surprise.



The calgary herald claims to have a video of activists with a gun.

I've seen a lot of videos of the attack now and none of them included a passenger with a gun.

When I see this alleged video I will believe it.


The ones I have seen aupport eyewitness testimony claiming that live fire was used by the IDF before they landed on the ship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:32 PM

The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry.
The Herald reflects Israeli Zionist and extreme right wing views. Nothing it prints on the Middle East situation can be accepted as valid.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM

So if you separate out (and ignore) all those with pre-set (vested) opinions (such as countries, journalists, media outlets and individuals who have strong and committed views one way or the other on Israel, Palestine and palistinian political causes, and add in vested interests like arabs, Iranians, muslims, jews) who do you have left to listen to?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:10 PM

Me!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:23 PM

"It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, ..,"

They don't listen when I say similar things, Joe....why would they listen when you say it?

You now have BB and Carol C. at it again, this time with help. They will post alternate 'proof' until you close the thread.

Pogo Possum was right....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM

Nice personal attack, Bill. I bet it gave you a lot of personal satisfaction posting that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM

""It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, which has been going on for well over sixty years. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong - and both sides have committed atrocities in the name of what they see as right.""

While that is all undoubtedly correct Joe, it still leaves a nasty taste in the mouth that one side has a twenty first century technology, while the other is barely halfway through the twentieth, and Western governments allow (even encourage) the vastly stronger playground bully to get away with it.

We wouldn't stand for that behaviour from our children.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:06 AM

CarolC's contributions are concise, well made and well supported.

Always good to have debate that predictably involves such clarity.

I must confess I don't generally wade through the swathes of "cut & paste" from BB though (from Israel's 'The Jerusalem' on the first page of this thread, though the source was uncited in the body of the post), as I like to be able to trust - as far as is possible - that the reporting is objective.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:32 AM

I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship

Can you direct me to that? I could use it in an argument on another site.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=59257http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldbulletin.net%2Fnews_detail.php%3Fid%3D59257

It's the first video below all of the still shots. It was the live feed with the correspondents talking about what was going on as it was happening. On of the English speaking correspondents says there are already wounded people. At that time, there were no Israelis aboard the ship. In a couple of minutes, they report that a helicopter is trying to land, and then you see the helicopter throw out the rope or ladder and Israelis start coming down it.

I was watching all of the live feed as it was happening and I was also posting developments to my facebook page at the same time, so I have a record of the order in which things happened, and that's how I remember it. I've also read an account from someone else who reports it almost exactly as I remember it, and they also say the Israelis opened fire first. Here's some of their account and a link to the whole thing...

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/ISeekTheTruth?v=app_2347471856

"There, the reports continued, mainly in turkish again but I heard a few in english, and they said that they were waiting around, because they were trying to avoid going into Israeli waters in the night time, since a previous aid ship was intercepted that way in 2009, at night time. They wanted to avoid any showdown at night time, so they backed away and went westward, 90-100 km from the Gaza shores (still in international waters, which protects them from Israeli attack). It was said that the israeli ships turned back. The live feed resumed and you could see people still standing and walking around all tense with their life jackets on.

Around now the live feed was being interrupted every few minutes. It would black out, sometimes the audio would cut off, and then it would return. It was reported that this was Israelis trying to block the sattelite channels from the ships, but every few minutes it would come back. Suddenly, the feed cut off for about 5-10 minutes. I was at the Gaza Tv News page and someone said that 2 people were killed and 30 injured, I didn't believe them.

Suddenly the feed came back, but this time it was from a turkish news channel. It seems as if all other feeds were cut off except for the turkish media passengers. It was some reporters talking live while images of the events in the boat were also happening live. All you could hear was a woman screaming in a different language, and then for a while she was yelling "WE NEED HELP! DON'T ATTACK US! WE ARE UNARMED CIVILIANS! WE NEED HELP! 2 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED!"

After a while of that, it stopped and you could hear Quran being played, and afterward an announcement said "Please stay calm, please take your seats, we have 2 people killed and we don't want any more hurt". You could see people walking back and forth.

Then I saw images of a helicopter flying overhead the boat, and reports said that they were trying to land on the boat.

Then the live feed switched positions and it was now on the deck, you could see ropes let go from above, and soldiers descending one by one, the camera man was reporting that the soliders were opening fire at the civilians, and I actually heard many gunshots over and over. The camera man ducked and another had a shot of a soldier in a confrontation with one passenger, and then I saw soldiers standing on the top of somewhere, no one was around them but I saw one soldier shoot randomly. Then I also saw a group of soldiers standing near the end of a ship wielding guns strutting back and forth before going out of camera view."


Here are some testimonies from flotilla people who have been released and are now talking about it...

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/2010/06/20106193546785656.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:27 AM

I just got word that the European campaign already has the funds for the next flotilla, which will have more aid in it and more people.

The flotillas are just going to keep getting bigger and more frequent until it will become too cumbersome for Israel to continue the blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:55 AM

Buy time for the IDF to succeed at what, exactly? The ethnic cleansing?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM

Ed asks....

"So if you separate out (and ignore) all those with pre-set (vested) opinions (such as countries, journalists, media outlets and individuals who have strong and committed views one way or the other on Israel, Palestine and palistinian political causes, and add in vested interests like arabs, Iranians, muslims, jews) who do you have left to listen to? "

May I suggest that you could do worse than listen to University of Sydney law professor Ben Saul – a man with a history of challenging human rights abuses – writing this week about the attack on the flotilla in International waters..................


"Israel's response to the Gaza flotilla is another unfortunate example of Israel clothing its conduct in the language of international law while flouting it in practice.

Israel claims that paragraph 67(a) of the San Remo Manual on Armed Conflicts at Sea justified the Israeli operation against the flotilla. (The San Remo Manual is an authoritative statement of international law applicable to armed conflicts at sea.)
Paragraph 67(a) only permits attacks on the merchant vessels of neutral countries where they "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture".

Israel argues that it gave due warnings, which were not heeded.

What Israel conveniently omits to mention is that the San Remo Manual also contains rules governing the lawfulness of the blockade itself, and there can be no authority under international law to enforce a blockade which is unlawful. Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if "the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade".


The background to that 'proportionality' rule is the experience of past world wars where naval blockades had devastating effects on civilian populations.

There is little question that Israel's blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms.
The proportionality rule requires an assessment of the military advantage against the harmful effects on civilians. Israel claims that the blockade is necessary to prevent Hamas from mounting indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

The proportionality principle requires, however, that Israel's security cannot come at any price. A balancing of interests is necessary to ensure that civilians should not pay too dearly for the security needs of others.

Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war.

That is why Israel reveals its contempt for international law when, for example in the past, its leaders have pledged to "destroy 100 homes for every rocket fired".

The harmful effects of the blockade on Gazan civilians have included the denial of the basics of life, such as food, fuel and medicine, as well widespread economic collapse.

The UN agency on the ground, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), has described a "severe humanitarian crisis" in Gaza in relation to human development, health, education, "the psychological stress" on the population, high unemployment (at 45 per cent) and poverty (with 300,000 people living beneath the poverty line), and the collapse of commerce, industry and agriculture.


Disrupting wildly inaccurate rockets from being fired at relatively underpopulated areas of southern Israel cannot possibly justify the acute disruption of the daily lives and livelihoods of more than one million Gazans. Nor is it lawful to seek to pressure Hamas by instrumentally impoverishing its civilian supporters.

Israel has further argued that it offered the Gaza flotilla an opportunity to deliver aid through the proper Israeli channels.

It is very difficult to regard that offer as sincere given Israel's track record. Israel's practices concerning the transit of goods through Israeli entry points has been arbitrary at best and deliberately obstructive at worst.

The UN notes that everything from crayons to soccer balls to musical instruments has been denied entry into Gaza – hardly rocket components.
Goods sit idle for months or are never delivered at all. In such circumstances, no-one could have any confidence that the goods would ever reach Gaza.

As yet, it is still unknown exactly what happened on board the flotilla vessels boarded by Israeli forces. Even at this early stage, however, some international law matters are fairly clear.

First, absent any intention by the flotilla to attack Israel, or any suspicion of piracy, it was unlawful for Israel to forcibly board foreign merchant vessels in international waters.

Secondly, such action amounted to an unlawful interference in the enforcement jurisdiction of the "flag-States" (countries of registration) of those vessels, such as Turkey.

Thirdly, it violated the fundamental principle of freedom of navigation on the high seas, codified in the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982.

Fourthly, under international human rights law, the apprehension and detention of those on board the vessels likely amounts to arbitrary, unlawful detention, contrary to article 9 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, since there is lawful basis for detention.

Fifthly, if Israeli forces killed people, they may not only have infringed the human right to life, but they may also have committed serious international crimes. Under article 3 of the Rome Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation of 1988, it is an international crime for any person to seize or exercise control over a ship by force, and also a crime to injure or kill any person in the process.

In such cases, any claim of self-defence by Israeli forces is irrelevant. The treaty necessarily adopts a strict approach.

One cannot attack a ship and then claim self-defence if the people on board resist the unlawful use of violence.
Legally speaking, government military forces rappelling onto a ship to illegally capture it are treated no differently than other criminals.
The right of self-defence in such situations rests with the passengers on board: a person is legally entitled to resist one's own unlawful capture, abduction and detention


Israel has become its own worst enemy. It prioritises its own interests with a callous lack of empathy for others. It is simply unable to imagine the suffering it inflicts upon others, and treats harm to Israelis as the only game in town.
Its absolutism of mind and politics has crushing consequences for Palestinians.


Far from ensuring its own security, Israel is unravelling it: no-one should be surprised if Israel has just succeeded in recruiting the next generation of martyrs keen to attack it.

Absolutism, violence, and the evaporation of peace in the region will continue as long as the international community continues to handle Israel with kid gloves."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:53 AM

As to UN law, read the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea (which this is), 12 June 1994

"A state, in a time of conflict, can impose an embargo, and while it cannot carry out embargo activities in the territorial waters of a third party, it can carry out embargo activities in international waters".

It seems permissible under rule 67(a) to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture."

So, it is within the international framework to detain a civilian vessel trying to break an embargo (which was the stated purpose, and it was widely reported) and if in the course of detaining the vessel, force is used against the forces carrying out the detention then that force has every right to act in self defense.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce


It is submitted that it is just as logical to believe that those on the flotilla were not on a humanaterian mission, but on a mission to break the naval blockade, as the opposite case.


1) An Al-Jazeera report from May 28,(this is available online) shows activists on board before departing for Gaza, chanting Intifada songs aimed at Jews and praising martyrdom. Chants include "Intifada, intifada, intifada! Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews! The army of Mohammed will return!" relating to a seventh century massacre of Jews in Khaybar by early Muslims.

2)Israel offered to transfer the supplies on the flotilla to Gaza from Ashdod port through official channels, an offer that was rejected in favor of confrontation on the part of the anti-Israel activists. As flotilla organizer Greta Berlin stated: "this mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it's about breaking Israel's siege."

3)The Marmara is owned and operated by IHH (which Israel and others see as being linked to terriorists, AKA freedom fighters. IHH is also listed as such by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, a supporter of radical Islamic networks, including Hamas, and at least in the past, even global jihad elements).


It is also reasonable to believe that Iarael, who has a military blockade in place, has a right to board any vessel it believes is on a belligerent mission. Despite claims that those on board were only prepared to resist peacefully, when Israeli military tried to board Marmara, they were resisted and attacked by many onboard, precipitating the resulting actions.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:55 AM

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"
Q, please provide sources for that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:56 AM

There can be no doubt now that Israel should be classed as a terrorist state, for what else was this action but an act of the most blatant terrorism? The sinking of a South Korean gunboat by North Korea has been rightly condemned, but attacking civilians bringing aid to an oppressed and beleagured people is far worse. Israel should now become an international pariah - I, for one, will impose my own personal boycott on Israeli goods.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:41 AM

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"
Q, please provide sources for that statement.

Answer

The information comes from The American Educational Trust a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, D.C., under taxation provision 501(c)4 by retired U.S. foreign service officers.

"AET's founders included Edward Firth Henderson, the AET's first chairman, and a former British Ambassador to Qatar; Andrew Killgore, AET's first president, who was U.S. Ambassador to when he retired from theUnited States Foreign Service in 1980; and Richard Curtiss, AET's first executive director, who was chief inspector of the U.S. Information Agency when he retired from the U.S. Foreign Service in 1980.

AET's Foreign Policy Committee has included former U.S. ambassadors, government officials, and members of the United States Congress, including the late Democratic Senator J. William Fulbright, and Republican Senator Charles Percy, both former chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and members of its Board of Directors and advisory committees "receive no fees for their services."

The AET runs a website, Remember These Children, which lists all Palestinian and Israeli children killed in the current intifada (since September 29, 2000).
The website follows on from two booklets ("Who Will Save the Children?" and "Remember These Children"), which were published in conjunction with Americans for Middle East Understanding, Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (now merged into Jewish Voice for Peace), and Black Voices for Peace.[
- Wiki

In general, AET supports Middle East solutions which it judges to be consistent with the charter of the United Nations, international law, the Geneva Conventions, and "traditional American support for human rights, self-determination, and fair play."

As part of its educational mission, AET publishes the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, a 76-page magazine published 9 times per year in Washington, DC, that focuses on news and analysis from and about the Middle East and U.S. policy in that region. AET also maintains the Washington Report Web site.

"Unapologetically Pro-Israel" CanWest Imposes National Editorials on Local Paper

"When Canadian newspaper columnist Doug Cuthand wrote a column that compared the plight of the Palestinians to that of North American Indians, he knew he might provoke some debate.

"I pointed out that the Palestinians had the equivalent of land claim to Israel: they had been forced off their land and placed into camps—the equivalent of reservations. The parallels are really jarring," said Cuthand, an aboriginal Indian documentary filmmaker who has written about Indian affairs for the Regina Leader Post and the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix for 10 years.

"I didn't think they'd like it but I didn't think they'd pull it," he said.....................

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:47 AM

Rent a mob???

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM

Apartheid South Africa was also in some ways a complex problem, with people from different origins trapped in a tragic situation.

But there was no question that the apartheid regime had to be opposed, and had to be swept away.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of the same old USA, pro-Israel rhetoric.

IHH - A Turkish humanitarian aid organistion that has been active in just about every warzone and natural disaster in recent years. Particularly active in Haiti, for instance. Yes, they work on Islamic principles, but then the Red Cross or CAFOD work on Christian principles. No problem, is there?

Hamas - A fully democratically elected political party. Democratically elected in elections judged by USA and EU inspectors as fully free and fair. I thought Americans understood the nature and significance of democracy?

From the Guardian website today:

"The Israeli army has all but admitted that the activists did not have guns of their own before the raid. Army spokeswoman Avital Leibovich said two pistols were seized from activists but these had been taken from the troops raiding the boat. She claimed the magazines of both weapons had been emptied before they were seized back.

Speaking to al Jazeera she insisted that the force used by the troops was proportionate. "Any metal bar pointing at someone's head can kill," she said.

Asked to list weapons on board she said there were knives, scissors, night vision binoculars, many metal bars and sharp objects. She claimed they had been prepared in advance and added that throwing soldiers off the boat was not the actions of a humanitarian organisation.

So let us all be clear about who the players are and the truth that the vessel, and its passengers, were unarmed (save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc) when they were attacked in international waters by people that opened fire on them from helicopters without provocation.

What would you Israel-apologists have done? Sat there and waited to be shot?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM

C'mon EdT, you should know by now that this has nothing to do with legality or self defense (nor with the delivery of humanitarian aid for that matter).

The pattern is pretty well established - Israel is provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation thus providing those who hate them with another opportunity to condemn them and call for an end to their state. The response is Pavlovian as evidenced by the majority of posters to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM

"save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc"

Did anyone shake their head when they saw photo's of the pitiful so-called "weapons cache". 'You're having a laugh' thinks I, six ships with seven hundred volunteers supposedly "armed" with handful of kitchen knives and some building materials, not to mention of course a jar of pebbles! Jesus, the Scouts would be more dangerously tooled up for bob a job week.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM

provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation

Like in "domestic violence" cases...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM

There is a raft of Israeli propaganda flooding the US national media. The truth remains, Israel attacked an unarmed ship accusing them of representing Al Quaeda. This is an unmitigated lie perpetrated by the Netanyahu government. We will not know the details of this provocation since the Israeli government has put a blackout on how many were killed, what really happened and incarcerated the inhabitants on the Flotilla. In the meantime, Obama has stood by and allowed this atrocity to continue. Yes, killing unarmed civilians on a boat of mercy is an atrocity. This reactive stance by the Israeli government has to be interpreted as another example of the US condoning death squads in South and Central American and now in the Middle East. The only solution to the problem at this point is a complete sanction against Israel, a disinvestment strategy as was employed in South Africa and a boycott of Israeli products.

Obama is in danger of losing the next election. 1. BP   2. Drone attacks on Pakistan
3. Escalated military budget (more than Bush) for two failed aggressions against foreign countries 4. Not addressing the Israeli siege of Gaza and it's military response. 5. Siding with big business corporations on Wall Street to defeat reforms.

Rand Paul is the new dictator that may emerge just as in the thirties in Berlin.

Look for Israel to start WWIII unless the International Community is heeded.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM

"save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc"

Try attacking the local police force, the military, or a riot squad with these objects and see if they react in a loving way. In fact, police forces in most urban centers (such as NY and LA) are as fearful as a knife as a gun. I suggest doubters view the NY police training film called "sharp edged weapons". I guess these objects just happened to be lying around on deck....ya right.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:01 AM

"police forces in most urban centers"

The point is, they *weren't* police in an urban city centre. And that they didn't find any real weapons of the sort that might be used to blow up Israeli citizens, like for example rocket launchers or grenades and so-on. In other words they found none of the kinds of materials that might just possibly have leant some degree of credence to their paranoid reasoning behind the attack on the flotilla.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM

"The response is Pavlovian" - well actually no it isn't

Frankly I consider it offensive to suggest that people who are deeply concerned about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the conditions reminiscent of apartheid in South Africa are merely the products of some kind of 'conditioning' and personally insulting to my intelligence to form my own opinion about social justice.

Certainly, if one looks at any of the previous threads on this forum whether about the treatment of Isreali Palestinians as second class citizens, the physical, social and emotional effects of an 8 meter tall concrete Apartheid Wall etc it is plain to observe a typical knee jerk reaction where any critic of Zionism, the illegal settlements (many even under Israels own laws) and so on is instantly branded an anti semite.

I would like to know where the Pavlovian reaction referred to at 02 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM is supposed to have been 'learned'

Are these posters all subjected to a daily diet of Hamas newspapers or Palestian supporting news channels?

Is there an equivalent and equal attempt to orchestrate propaganda efforts like that soliciting individuals to become a pro-Israel "media volunteer" designed to flood news websites and forums with pro-Israel arguments and information?

"Dear friends,

We hold the [sic] military supremacy, yet fail the battle over the international media. We need to buy time for the IDF to succeed, and the least we can do is spare some (additional) minutes on the net. The ministry of foreign affairs is putting great efforts in balancing the media, but we all know it's a battle of numbers. The more we post, blog, talkback, vote – the more likely we gain positive sentiment.

I was asked by the ministry of foreign affairs to arrange a network of volunteers, who are willing to contribute to this effort. If you're up to it you will receive a daily messages & media package as well as targets."

from Richard Silverstein's (a contributer to the Independent Jewish Voices essay collection A Time to Speak Out) article guardian.co.uk, Friday 9 January 2009


Well I'm prepared to put MY 'vested interests' on the line here.

I have Jewish ancestry
I cherish the thought that like a daughter of Holocaust survivors I could feel that the 'ultimate Jewish values' of 'compassion tolerance and rescue' formed and guided my principles.

I supposrt the organization ... WINDOWS - CHANNELS FOR COMMUNICATION...çìåðåú

a non-profit, joint organization of Jewish and Palestinian citizens of Israel and Palestinians from the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Established in 1991, Windows promotes acquaintance, and understanding between both peoples, as well as empowerment of the youth with whom we work, through educational and cultural programs, media and art

My views are my own and I am NOT some kind of reverse hasbaranik with repetition compulsion.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:12 AM

Oh dear, EdT, you're really struggling to find some sort of justification there. I suppose you'd be happy for armed troops to burst into your house and kill your family just because you happened to have a pair of scissors lying around. Don't be such a complete plonker.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:31 AM

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"

Of course I meant where and when did these two Canadian organizations say that, not USA folks....(about an organization that owns a lot of stuff, not the newspaper itself). BTW, these two organizations represents and advocates for its journalist members. Their main issues with Canwest Global is that they concentrate ownership and lay off reporters, so they don't like them....as is happening with most world media sources....including in the USA and the UK.


By the way, Canwest has recently been restructured and it's TV and newspaper and online-publishing assets are separately up for sale, if any of you folks have an interest?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

When a ship is boarded by pirates the crew and passengers have every legal right to use whatever they have to hand to defend themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:39 AM

"Oh dear, EdT, you're really struggling to find some sort of justification there. I suppose you'd be happy for armed troops to burst into your house and kill your family just because you happened to have a pair of scissors lying around. Don't be such a complete plonker".

No plonking or struggle, to reach common sense, (I know it is a misnomer) on my part. No, I would not take up a knife or other weapon ( or what could be seen as a weapon) against police nor the military...on or off duty. Mainly because I have seen first hand what can happen and because I do not believe confronting these folks with weapons of any type is ever wise. I call it common sense and a desire for survival. You may call it something else...as I am sure you will:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM

"When a ship is boarded by pirates the crew and passengers have every legal right to use whatever they have to hand to defend themselves"

Maybe so, though it seems very stupid to me, as it can lead to your injury or death.

And, there is the disagreement about the legality of this (and other) naval blockade, that I suspect will not be sorted out on mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:59 AM

"My views are my own and I am NOT some kind of reverse hasbaranik with repetition compulsion."

I wasn't aware of the Israeli government initiative to flood the media with pro-Israeli propaganda via the mouths of volunteers. They tell these fake "bloggers" what to say, and even provide them with suitable YouTube clips and everything. It's all pretty 'Eeew'. We know we can't always trust the media for impartiality, but this state orchestrated barrage of propaganda hiding behind a front of fraudulent "bloggers" feels much more cynical and insideous.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

Activists are just troublemakers - they knew what they were going into.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:03 AM

Despite claims that those on board were only prepared to resist peacefully, when Israeli military tried to board Marmara, they were resisted and attacked by many onboard, precipitating the resulting actions.

Except that the Israelis started shooting before anyone had a chance to resist, which makes it a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:19 AM

Ed - answer mark 2
- not totally relevent to the thread but certainly indicates the bias of reporting in a section of the Canadian media and how any report of the attack upon the flotilla might just be not entirely 'objective'

A website devoted to cross-media ownership, convergence & concentration in Canada has published a 'time line' about the formation of CanWest Global and its dispute with journalists at The Montreal Gazette in 2001 onwards

Sept. 1 Montreal Gazette publisher Michael Goldbloom quits, cryptically citing differences with CanWest over the direction the chain is taking

November Peggy Curran, TV critic at The Montreal Gazette, writes a column about a CBC documentary about to be aired. The topic is the treatment of journalists in the occupied territories. Her column is first held, then a rewrite is ordered. Curran complies, the amended column runs, but she then gives up her TV-critic spot and goes on a year's leave of absence.

Dec. 5
CanWest announces national editorials to run in all major dailies except one of the two CanWest owns in Vancouver, BC. A mini-insurrection erupts, leading to newsroom turmoil at the Montreal Gazette and the quashing of a byline protest. Editorial Page editor Peter Hadekel asks to be reassigned. His request is granted.

Dec. 11
Fifty-four journalists and other staff at The Montreal Gazette publish an open letter denouncing the national editorial policy as an infringement on freedom of expression. The text runs in Toronto and French-language Montreal newspapers but is not carried, much less mentioned, in any CanWest publication. The protest is covered by Canoe, a web site owned by a rival media operation, Quebecor. Other journalists add their signatures after the fact, bringing the total to 77.

Dec. 14
An "advisory" to unionized staff from Montreal Gazette management warns employees that working there is a privilege, not a right. The gag order warns that employees risk disciplinary action, up to and including dismissal, for sharing the internal goings-on at CanWest with rival media or publicly questioning the motives of management. The Montreal Newspaper Guild (a Local of TNG Canada/CWA) files a grievance but, under pressure, a web site independently set up by Gazette employees to voice their concerns is taken off-line. The Federation of Professional Journalists of Quebec soon re-posts the material on its Web server.

June 6 2002
Full-page ads appear in the Globe and Mail, the Winnipeg Free Press and Halifax's Chronicle-Herald – three of the few major Canadian newspapers not controlled by CanWest – denouncing the company's stifling of debate and dissent. The signatories are a Who's Who of Canadian journalism, including former publishers and executives of the newspapers now owned by CanWest. The ad was refused for publication in any CanWest paper.

Sept. 17 2004
Reuters news agency says it will be having a chat with CanWest Global officials about editors at their newspapers inserting inappropriate terminology, such as "terrorists," into their coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. CBC Ottawa reports that the National Post altered Reuters copy while The Ottawa Citizen, which was caught out by an alert reader, distorted an Associated Press story for which it ran a correction.

Members of the Asper family, which owns CanWest, have never made a secret of their unqualified support for Israel and their disdain for journalists who strive to be objective in their coverage of the Middle East conflict(s). While Izzy Asper and his now-CEO son, Leonard, clearly delivered the message to CanWest Global reporters and editors that news copy as well as "national editorials" would reflect their personal views, this is the first time a news service has publicly objected to its copy being altered in such a way.

Sept 22
Globe and Mail publishes a commentary by Mazen Chouaib, executive director of the National Council on Canada-Arab Relations, in which he calls upon "Parliament to take a hard look at the impact and effect of media concentration in this country." Excerpts:

When the late Israel Asper's CanWest Global Communications acquired a significant share of the Canadian media, many of us feared the worst — particularly on the issue of Middle East coverage. In the past week, CanWest's editorial practices have shown we were right to worry.

• • •

For many Arab Canadians, this is another example of what they have long complained about: CanWest seems to make every effort to demonize them and their culture. There have been many complaints by Arab groups against CanWest, but the organization maintains an uncompromising and unapologetic position.

Nov. 17
The pro-Israel Aspers acquire a 50-per-cent interest in the Jerusalem Post, an English-language daily owned by disgraced media baron Conrad Black

link

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM

Bobad's insinuation that all of the people involved the flotilla are anti-Semites is not only an insult to our intelligence, it is also an insult to his intelligence as well. (When I say that, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.)

I wonder what pavlovian conditioning Holocaust survivor Heddie Epstein was responding to when she signed up to accompany the flotilla.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:44 AM

We know we can't always trust the media for impartiality...

Sorry but bloggers whether "real" or "fake" are hardly "the media".

Any jackass can post a blog and anyone that would believe what's written thereon without independent confirmation from a reliable source is worse than an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM

Golly I'm agreeing with GregF. Is it the apocalypse?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:59 AM

"Any jackass can post a blog"

Blogs are, or so we imagine, generally created by individual jackasses, and not generally mass-generated by jackass governments.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:16 PM

Amazing number of experts on international maritime law seem to be Mudcat regulars. Must be the shanty singing I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:25 PM

I don't know why anyone would think that the mainstream media (corporate media) whould be any more reliable than independent bloggers. Many independent bloggers are professional career journalists who no longer work for the corporate media because they refused to toe the corporate line. Just as with the corporate media, anyone reading a blog should verify whenever possible, but to make blanket statements about all bloggers makes no sense at all and shows a lot of ignorance about the nature of blogs these days.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

CarolC,

"All of that stuff was planted by the Israelis, beardedbruce"

You have some proof? I have no proof that the deaths were not caused by the pro-Palestinians themselves- since they are the ones benefiting from it, I guess that means they should be presumed to be guilty .

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM

Beardedbruce

The proof is in the press - courtesy of the Israeli military spokeswoman that was quoted in the Guardian article I produced earlier today.

The only "weapons" apart from scissors, swiss army knives and kitchen knives, were guns and night vision scopes that were taken from, or dropped by, the Israeli soldiers. And were later returned. The spokeswoman said that the clips in the guns were empty when returned - she did not, or could not, say who fired the bullets.

I don't believe that Israeli special forces are in the habit of relinquishing loaded weapons to civilians armed with screwdrivers and tools for getting stones out of horse's hoof!

Fact, the boats and their passengers were unarmed.

The Israeli military have confirmed this.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

IDF: Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by israel
By the CNN Wire Staff
June 2, 2010 12:04 p.m. EDT

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Trucks of flotilla aid halted stopped at Gaza crossing
Clothing, medical material, blankets on trucks
Israel has naval blockade of Gaza

Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources said trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid over protests that members of the flotilla were not delivering the materials.

Israel had 20 trucks of aid found on the ships, such as expired medications, clothing, blankets, some medical equipment and toys.

Nine people died on Monday when Israel intercepted an aid vessel bound for Gaza.

Under Israeli policy, humanitarian aid must come through Israel and be checked by Israeli authorities who are looking to intercept smuggled weapons bound for militants aiming to attack Israel.

As part of this policy Israel forbids ships from dropping off goods at Gaza ports and works to thwart smuggling via tunnels between Gaza and Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

David Cameron has condemned the Israeli raid on an aid convoy in Gaza as "completely unacceptable".

In his first question time as prime minister, he said he deplored the loss of life and everything should be done to prevent it happening again.

Here is the link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10218450.stm

Make of it what you will.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

source

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM

BB,

The Information blackout was imposed by the Israeli military after the attack began.

Up until that point, the flotilla had been 100% transparent, with numerous international parliamentary and media representatives on hand to ensure this transcparency.

It was the Israeli military who wanted to stop information getting out.

So who had something to hide?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

Ah, Hamas is playing politics with the aid shipments, therefore Israel was justified in attacking unarmed ships in international waters? Such logic.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

The Israelis were also carrying hit lists of people they were supposed to try to kill. I saw one of them being displayed by the correspondents periodically on the live feed. Here is a picture of the hit list I saw being displayed...

http://www.kawther.info/wpr/wp-content/uploads/1-18.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM

mousethief: Golly I'm agreeing with GregF. Is it the apocalypse?

Sorry! I'll try harder next time ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM

There were a number of Arab Palestinians on board, some from Israel itself. They are not being released with the others.
One newscast said that a number of the Turks aboard also were being held.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:15 PM

CarolC: "All that stuff was planted." I suggest you read "Looking for a Ship" by McPhee on the subject of smuggling and inspections.

"Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war." If you are engaged in a provocative act, you are a participant, not an innocent.

Of the ships in the flotilla, how many actually were fired upon? And by fired upon, I mean with more than a shot across the bowx. How many had violent incidents when boarded?

I know for a fact that part of police training amounts to the following: If the person appears to show any threat, pull out your club. If he pulls a knife, pull out your gun. If he still threatens you, shoot [now, it's Taze] him. We don't want you to be hurt or killed in the line of duty. Should soldiers respond any differently when threatened?

Hamas in Gaza is playing a wonderful game. While not officially at war with Israel, they make no effort to stop their so called militants from attacking Israel. These attacks, if addressed at all, are then disclaimed as the actions of militants.

I have spoken with members of the Palestinian Mission to the United Nations in the line of business. I find it curious that people can find money for weapons but cannot find the money for Atmospheric Water Generation equipment which would benefit the population of the Strip.

Curiouser and curiouser said Alice.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

beardedbruce, on the subject of the faked "evidence"...

http://ht.ly/1TaQb

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM

EBarnicle, shots from the helicopters wounded two people. We know this because the correspondents reported it in the live feed before the ropes had even come out of the helicopter that you can see in the live feed, and before any of the Israelis had left the helicopter.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM

I should point out, for those who don't like to open links, those "weapons" weren't even planted. The Israelis didn't even bother to do that. They just gathered up some pictures that were a few years old, put them up on Flikr, and then they just waited for all of the useful idiots to go out and do their work for them.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:32 PM

If Hamas are preventing the Aid from getting through then they are undermining the efforts and intentions of the flotilla.

For this I condemn them outright.

Just As I condemn the Israelis from hijacking the flotilla and murdering the civilians on board.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:35 PM

Maybe they are and maybe they aren't. I've also heard reports that none of the supplies ever even got to the Gaza border, and that the government of Israel has disappeared them, blaming it on Hamas (some of the reports have even suggested that the supplies have gone to Jewish settlements). I think I'll wait for more information before I believe that one, considering the Israeli government's track record of lies and what has happened to supplies from previous flotillas that were confiscated by the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM

Some time back, a friend of mine, while working on a wildlife site in a London park, was engaged with by a group of four lads spoiling for a fight. It was a very peculiar business (there was a territorial issue, over the lads continued attempts to remove fences from the site, I recall), in which the four lads, approaching six foot, but only 14 years old, claimed to be being picked on by my unarmed 5ft 8in friend. The lads had a metal tipped cricket stump. Eventually all was resolved, but one thing stuck in my mind. The claim by the leader of lads' friends that "he was only little".

Every time Israel gets into one of these situations, and tries to justify itself, I hear that lads' claim.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM

[From: CarolC - PM
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM
I should point out, for those who don't like to open links, those "weapons" weren't even planted. The Israelis didn't even bother to do that. They just gathered up some pictures that were a few years old, put them up on Flikr, and then they just waited for all of the useful idiots to go out and do their work for them.]

Link to Irael MFA's Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/

Can anyone explain to me, how so many of the posters in response to these images, are able (apparently) to ascertain that the images of the umm seized "weapons cache" are in fact way out of date, and thus not images of anything on board the flotilla.

Irrespective of whether or not the images are genuinely of what they are purported to be of, I find it a bit bizarre that the Israeli's would have even bothered falsifying 'evidence' of a "weapons cache" comprised of a kitchen knives, woodworking tools and marbles..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

Lets try that again:

[From: CarolC - PM
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM
I should point out, for those who don't like to open links, those "weapons" weren't even planted. The Israelis didn't even bother to do that. They just gathered up some pictures that were a few years old, put them up on Flikr, and then they just waited for all of the useful idiots to go out and do their work for them.]

Link to Irael MFA's Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/ (I've kept the original url in the link there, in case anyone's dubious about what they might be clicking on)

Can anyone explain to me, how so many of the posters in response to these images, are able (apparently) to ascertain that the images of the umm seized "weapons cache" are in fact way out of date, and thus not images of anything on board the flotilla.

Irrespective of whether or not the images are genuinely of what they are purported to be of, I find it a bit bizarre that the Israeli's would have even bothered falsifying 'evidence' of a "weapons cache" comprised of a kitchen knives, woodworking tools and marbles..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:10 PM

I don't know the process one would use to find this information, but this is what one of the commenters posted in the comments of the saw photograph. Maybe someone with more technical expertise can explain how one goes about getting the EXIF metadata from photographs posted in a site like flikr...


Hi. Just to confirm that the EXIF metadata points to this photo being taken in 2006:

barney@benchwood:~$ identify -verbose farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4662965686_a91f8 bab2e_o_d.jpg | grep Date
exif:DateTime: 2010:06:02 10:38:47
exif:DateTimeDigitized: 2006:02:07 05:52:19
exif:DateTimeOriginal: 2006:02:07 05:52:19


I notice a lot of bouquets of red flowers laying around in that picture. I wonder what those are doing there.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Java EXIF viewer from a dependable source, though it only gives the original date. You'll need to have the Java runime on your computer.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM

Thanks, Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:59 PM

I asked one of my Facebook friends, a young woman who lives in Gaza, if she knows anything about the reports that Hamas has refused to allow the aid to enter Gaza, and this was her response...

"that news are just stupid lies !! well i think that they are looking for a way to make it a little bit easier on Isreal !! it is not not not true !! Hamas people still PALESTINIAN .. and they can not and would not do this !! they need it more than every body !!! how they could do that !!! Crazy westren news !!"

I will keep looking around for more information, though.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:24 PM

"I notice a lot of bouquets of red flowers laying around in that picture. I wonder what those are doing there."

Yep, lots of plastic wrapped bunches of red roses or carnations laying about on board next to that umm "weapon": http://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/4662965686/

Could that site be a spoof?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM

More reported weapons on the flotilla (I've left the url in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PV4eiDi12w

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM

Could that site be a spoof?

No, the hasbara people really are that dumb.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:42 PM

Nutmeg is coming to destroy Israel

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:34 PM

Nutmeg and sunflower seeds. Those can be made into rockets. Put de lime in de coconut. That was about liquid explosives, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:34 PM

Ain't rocket surgery...

Isreal is strengthening Hamas with it's blockaid...

Folks root fir the underdog and Isreal is creating an underdog in Hmas...

Time for some serious rethinkin' in Isreal... Times have changed... Military might alone won't keep Isreal secure... This is a new deal here... People are too connected... Isreal is fightin' the "last war"...

I'd say it's time to get this thing figured out... Without the the friggin' militraists this time... They are passe'... They have nuthin' to offer...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:42 PM

I understand about the lexdexia, Bobert, but I can't let this one pass...

Isreal is strengthening Hamas with it's blockaid...


Maybe that's what they should call the next flotilla. It's perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:08 AM

Oooh! Major PR coup! I can see a concert with big-name stars, raising money for cardamon and nutmeg and sunflower seeds to smuggle into Gaza:

BLOCKAID

Please give generously.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:27 AM

By the way, one way people can help the Palestinians cope with the economic difficulties they face because of the stranglehold that the Israeli government and military have over them is to go to this site and buy some of their great products. They are made in Palestine by Palestinians (not in an apartheid settler colony). I bought a kufiyeh that was made in the last Palestinian kufiyeh factory by Mr. Herbawi and I love it.

http://www.palestineonlinestore.com/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:09 AM

I just got word from a source I trust that Israel has stolen all of the aid along with the ships, and has no intention of letting any of it go to help the people in Gaza. I'll keep an eye out for more sources of information about this for further verification.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:17 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMq19qHq7Jo&feature=player_embedded

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM

Yesterday I heard an Israeli spokesman claim that cement was a banned import into Gaza (deperately needed to re-build damage done to schools and hospitals by the last Israeli incursion) because it could be used by Hamas to build military installations!! Following this 'logic' I assume that foodstuffs could be added to the list because it could be used to feed Hamas fighters!
I don't know how far the forged Irish passports incident has hit the world press. A couple of months ago Israeli terrorists used forged Irish passports.

From The Belfast Telegraph:
"Members of a hit squad that assassinated a top Hamas military commander used Irish passports to enter and leave Dubai, it's been claimed.
The suspected Israeli hit team, including at least one woman, entered the United Arab Emirates using Irish documents, police authorities said.
Mahmoud al-Mabhouh (50), held responsible by Israel for the abduction and murder of two Israeli soldiers in 1989, died in mysterious circumstances on January 20 in a Dubai hotel room.
The Irish Department of Foreign Affairs spokesman said yesterday: "We are aware of the media reports and we are in contact with authorities locally to try and determine the truth of the reports."
Al-Mabhouh was said to have been shocked with an electric weapon held to his legs and then suffocated or poisoned.
Iran and Hamas have blamed Israel for the killing, but Israeli news media claimed al-Mabhouh had many enemies and could have been killed by other Arab factions.
Up to seven people were said to have been involved in al-Mabhouh's killing, four of whom used Irish passports to enter Dubai and who later fled to a "European country" after the killing, according to police sources in Dubai.
Declining to reveal their identities, an official said UAE security personnel were co-ordinating with Interpol to have them extradited
A few years ago the Israeli's were reported to have sent one of their murder-squads to the Irish Republic to carry out the murder of a Palestinian seeking refuge here."

Nazi extermination camps were at their most efficient during my lifetime, so I grew up surrounded by horrific images of Belsen and Auschwitz. I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it extremely distressing to witness the persecuted having become the persecuters and resorting to many of the tactics used by their former 'ethnic cleansers' in pursuit of a two thousand year old myth.
This bunch are shitting on the memory of their own predecessors.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:34 AM

""The pattern is pretty well established - Israel is provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation thus providing those who hate them with another opportunity to condemn them and call for an end to their state. The response is Pavlovian as evidenced by the majority of posters to this thread.""

That is the best example of pure horseshit I have seen for many a day.

1. PIRACY! The aid ships were in international waters. For the Israelis to claim justification, or provocation, they would have to be inside Israeli territorial limits, or what the Israelis claim as their territorial waters (not necessarily the same thing).

2. The Israeli blockade is of dubious legality to say the least, and if it cannot be justified, then neither can any action taken in its support.

3. NO CONTRABAND WAS FOUND! Experience of the efficiency of Israeli Intelligence leads one to suspect that they would have known exactly what was, or was not, aboard those ships, in which case they were intentionally targetting a humanitarian aid shipment, with the intention of harming innocent civilians in Gaza.

4. Nothing that has been advanced or proposed as justification stands analytical scrutiny. This is just another case of the Middle East's biggest bully flexing its muscles in full expectation of support from the West's biggest bully.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM

'Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages.' (from Samuel Johnson In The Idler, 1758)

So what is the reality behind the bombardment of information from the Jerusalem Post and the vociferous number of internet 'programmed posters' that Hamas has refused the delivery of the electric wheelchairs on board the Freedom Flotilla

Amongst the reports which state that a condition of negotiation about the disposal of the aid is the release of ALL the detainees from the flotilla without exception (some are still detained for 'unspecified reasons') it is sometimes possible to spot the comment by Ahmed Kurd, Minister for Social Welfare in the Hamas government
"We also insist that the equipment be delivered in its entirety."

The Jerusalem Post (part of the CanWest empire) reports that Kurd 'claims' the batteries have been removed from the wheelchairs

It is a fact that batteries are on the list of goods banned from import into Gaza - the lack of fuel for the Gaza power plant has forced hospitals to rely exclusively on back-up generators, which are not intended for prolonged use and are often damaged.
The replacement parts needed to fix them cannot be brought in so hospitals try to use Uninterruptible Power Supply devices to reduce the risk of power cuts on sensitive medical equipment; however, these rely on batteries.

So do we assume that the battery units required to power the wheelchairs have been impounded under the current ban rendering the 'delivery' of the chairs an empty gesture or that the Israeli authorities have suddenly had a total reversal change of heart under the scrutiny of the world or go along with the Jerusalem posts allegation that "This proves the whole thing was a provocation"?


Propaganda war: trusting what we see?

..."I have had several hundred e-mails about this article. They are more or less evenly balanced between those who criticise it and those who praise it. I think I have replied to all.

I would stress that I looked only at the Israeli side because of the new factor - Israel setting up a special unit to improve the projection of its arguments around the world."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM

""I find it curious that people can find money for weapons but cannot find the money for Atmospheric Water Generation equipment which would benefit the population of the Strip.""

There were NO weapons aboard that flotilla!

And if they did find the money, purchase the equipment, and have it shipped over, I suppose in your fantasy world the Israelis would simply let it through?

ROFLMAO
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM

That point about the atmospheric water generator kind of smacks of "let them eat cake" anyway. Even if they did have one, how the hell could they use it if Israel won't let them have enough electricity to run it?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:26 AM

"the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council voted to set up an independent international inquiry into the raid."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10222131.stm

I'm a bit confused about this supposed 'independent' inquiry, I thought the US BLOCKED an independent UN inquiry, and instead successfully pushed for it to be conducted by Israel itself. Or is the use of the term 'independent' a fudge?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:33 AM

Ah, my fault. I'm muddling up the UN human rights council with the UN security council.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM

It is confusing.....

"U.S. President Barack Obama stepped in to save Israel yesterday at the United Nations Security Council from an independent probe of Tuesday morning's Gaza flotilla raid that resulted in the Israeli navy killing nine civilians. Hopefully, Israel will express its gratitude to our nation by continuing its freeze on settlements in the West Bank and negotiating seriously with the Palestinians toward an end to the occupation and a solution for Gaza.

But a U.S. 'no' vote could not halt another U.N. body, the Human Rights Council – the group that commissioned the Goldstone Report – from today launching its own probe of the botched Israeli move to halt a civilian humanitarian aid operation for Gaza."

- from a report by Eileen White Read
a former Wall Street Journal defense, technology, and communications professional for international NGOs in human rights, microcredit, and advocacy. Currently working on an anti-genocide project at a Washington, DC, think tank.

Read White AND the Jerusalem Post are already referring to this as Goldstone 11

In April 2009, the United Nations Human Rights Council appointed South African jurist Richard Goldstone to lead the mission of investigating war crimes committed by Israel in the war in Gaza between December 27, 2008 and January 18, 2009.

This report concluded that both Israel and Hamas were probably guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity causing Harvard Law School's Professor Alan Dershowitz to call Goldstone "a traitor using his Jewishness to malign Israel… He is an evil man, one who allowed himself to be used against the Jewish people, an absolute traitor."

The Israeli government refused to conduct an independent investigation of the report's findings.

A senior official in prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said "Bibi is satisfied with the IDF's internal probe, the preliminary results of which were submitted to the United Nations" in early February.

The US representative at the security council discussions, Alejandro Wolff, has indicated that Washington would be satisfied with Israel investigating itself when he called for it to undertake a credible investigation into the murders on board the Freedom Flotilla

Ynet the Tel Aviv based newspaper reported -

' "Israel regrets the UN Human Rights Council's decision to launch an independent investigation into the raid before the incident ended.
Such a decision indicates politicization, not genuine concern for human rights," Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said Thursday.
Members of the so-called forum of seven ministers, including Eli Yishai and Benny Begin, are opposed to the establishment of an international commission of inquiry and have called to wait for the IDF to publish its own findings.'

"We'll know how to investigate the raid from every angle and draw the necessary conclusions" said Vice Prime Minister Moshe Ya'alon

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM

Well, one thing is fir sure... Isreal is at yet another crossroads and bickering amoung themselves... That sometimes is a good thing... Hope the reasobale people don't get shouted down by their Military/Industrialists...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

B. B. Wolfe said, after the raid on the chicken coop by a band of roving wolves under his oversight, "I know how to investigate this raid from every angle and draw the necessary conclusions."

Good grief. They don't even try to make their lies probable anymore. Who was it that said if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it? The Israeli government has clearly learned the lesson well.

Also accusing the UNHRC of not caring about human rights is ROFLMAO.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM

As always happens in events of this nature, observers such as ourselves never are able to access the full facts & issues surrounding the incident.

However, what I've gleaned from overall info leads me to a conclusion thus:

The Israeli forces [I stress not necessarily representing all Israeli people as a homogeneous mass] violently attacked unarmed civilian vessels & their crews with military weapons.

The Iraeli PM & govt spokespeople in official statements justify these crimes as 'self protection' of their forces.

Pondering why it was necessary to kill people wielding sticks, knives whatever clearly protecting themselves, when there's other non lethal technologies available such as tear gas, tazers etc.

Consequently, its not a suprise I'm feeling [as most on here, & along with the rest of world opposition] that what's happened is murder.

I heard Bang Ki Moon of UN speaking on it, but sadly feel that group are paper tigers against the US/Israeli pact.

I could go on.............weep,,,,,,,,,join Amnesty International or similar..........

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_clash

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM

There is no confusion here. Mark Regev and the Israel and AIPAC propaganda forces are saturating the main stream news media with their distorted and lying stories about the naked aggression against peaceful demonstrators. Disinvestment against Israel is one of the courses that must be taken. The IDF is the new KGB or SS.

We'll see what happens with the "Rachel Corrie" when it tries to get through.

It's the same as what happened in South Africa. The people of Gaza are in a canton.
They need their civil rights restored.

Shame on Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:15 AM

'Next time we'll use more force'

'Navy prepares for expected arrival of 2 more activist ships.

Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war." '

From the article by Eileen Read White quoted earlier -

"Hasbara, or Israeli political spin, is actually already underway – a multi-million-dollar PR machine, involving government employees, academics, friendly journalists, consultants, and activists around the world. CNN reports that, after displaying "a willful indifference to public opinion for years," the Israel Defense Force is trying hasbara on the convoy killings story, posting a series of heavily-edited short videos of the situation aboard ship on YouTube, showing only soldiers being hit as they arrived on board – no footage of the soldiers killing nine civilians.

Israel-related media around the world are running stories about the commandos landing and shooting their paintball guns – with zero reference to the fact that their real guns killed nine people."

A brutal ambush at sea

"Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.

However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons."

However the next paragraph ststes clearly.....

"One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations."

The 'rioters' or passengers, as perhaps they should be more correctly termed, presumably were not expected to use self defence in 'life threatening situations'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 AM

I've gone through a long process of figuring out where I stand on the subject of whether or not Israel should continue as a Jewish state. At first, I felt that a two state solution was the best one because the events of the Holocaust necessitated a place where Jews could be in the majority.

But there are many Jews who have persuaded me with their arguments, that a state with a permanent Jewish majority can never work. They say that Israel will have to implement a permanent state of ethnic cleansing and discrimination against non-Jews in order to maintain a permanent Jewish majority. I think they are right about that, but I still was having a problem trying to figure out how to address the needs of Jews that arose in light of past persecutions.

A few months ago, I finally figured out where I stand on this with no ambiguity in my mind. The Gypsies have suffered all of the same persecutions as Jews have, including their genocide and attempted extermination in the holocaust. And they have not experienced any of the gains that Jews have in the last century. Jews are one of the most protected, if not the most protected minority group in the world today. Gypsies do not have the kind of protection that Jews have today, so their place in the world is much more insecure.

So I ask myself - if it were proposed that some indigenous population somewhere should be permanently displaced and dispossessed in order to create an exclusive state for the Gypsies, would I support that? And I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I would not. In light of this, I now know that I cannot support the permanent displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians in order to provide Jews with an exclusive state of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:47 AM

I just got word back from my friend in Gaza. She went to a Hamas office and asked about what the Hamas position was in regard to receiving the aid. She said they told her that they wanted the aid to come to Gaza with the flotilla. She said they are sensitive to the reality that if they accepted the aid from Israel themselves, instead of letting the people on the flotilla bring it to Gaza, people would say that Hamas was keeping the aid for themselves (and we know that the hasbara machine would do exactly that, because they have done it before). And she said that the aid has the blood of innocent people on it.

Another facebook friend who was heavily involved with the flotilla has said that if the government of Israel really wanted to hand over the aid, they could do it without giving it to Hamas. He said that they could easily give it to NGOs to bring to Gaza and distribute. He believes that Israel will not ever hand that aid to any NGOs. He was involved in raising a lot of money to supply the Rachel Corrie, and he says he doesn't think the people of Gaza will ever see the aid from that ship either, or from any future flotillas. But the flotillas will continue nevertheless.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

If Israel really wanted Gaza to get aid, it would let the aid that is currently being offered (before the flotilla) get through. Making bogus rules about nutmeg shows what they really want is to subjugate. Gaza is a ghetto.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM

`So I ask myself - if it were proposed that some indigenous population somewhere should be permanently displaced and dispossessed in order to create an exclusive state for the Gypsies, would I support that? And I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I would not. In light of this, I now know that I cannot support the permanent displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians in order to provide Jews with an exclusive state of their own.`

North American native peoples would be very pleased to read that. In fact, your continued existence in North America speaks to the fact that you DO support the permanent displacement of previously existing peoples. As to who displaced who in the mid-East, check the history books.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM

There weren't a whole hell of a lot of European Jews in Palestine before the late 19th century. I checked the history books.

If Israel treated Palestine the way the US treats its indigenous peoples (which isn't great, I will admit) then the world would have a lot less opprobrium for Israel. If all the Indians in America were put in two reservations, one of which the whites kept shrinking and the other of which they kept in a perpetual state of poverty and disrepair by deliberately blocking aid (and nutmeg) from getting in from outside, then maybe your analogy would be interesting. As it is, it's facile.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:30 AM

"If Israel treated Palestine the way the US treats its indigenous peoples"

Well, it's arguably better now than it was during the period where the indigenous peoples were virtually exterminated by white settlers.

I'm sure no-body blames people innocently born on land violently seized and occupied by their forebears - no-body can bare responsibility for evils of the past - but I'd suggest we *are* all collectively responsible for the actions which our people/government/nation undertake on our behalf in the *present*.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:03 PM

My English Jewish friends (all descendants of Holocaust refugees) are ashamed of Israel. In fact they are the most angry "anti-Semitic" sounding voices I hear.

In the media, I've heard Jewish critics of Israel's behaviour "self-hating". It must be very troubling for people like my friends - those who see it as such - to witness echoes of the very same atrocities which their own grandparents escaped to England from, and then to be damned by their own people as a consequence of feeling that way.

I don't know, exactly what is it that makes the abuser, abuse? But it's even more perplexing on a collective scale.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM

EDIT: 'I've heard Jewish critics of Israel's behaviour LABELLED "self-hating".'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:11 PM

Sorry, that was something of a thread drift prompted by a conversation I had with a friend of mine yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:18 PM

Who should I displace so that I might leave the US, PEACE? No matter where I go, I will be occupying someone else's land. I could just lay down and die, but I if I do that, I will be of no help to anyone. If I remain where I am and work to try to correct iniquities (even those being carried out against the native peoples of this country), I can make a difference.

I actually support the Native American movement to take back sovereignty of this country.

So spare my your hypocrisy, PEACE.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

And by the way, most Israeli archaeologists and historians accept as fact that the European Jews have no historical or ancestral ties to the Middle East, whatever. None. Zip. Nada. I do not dispute the legitimacy of the presence of the Mizrahim. But the European Jews have no legitimate claim to that land whatever.

Having said that, I have not suggested forcing the European Jews to leave Israel. I am saying that all of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to their homes or as close as they can get to what was their homes before they were driven out, and the government should not have a specifically Jewish character. It's character should be neutral with regard to any particular ethnic group.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05bo1xh1JDo

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM

CarolC writes: "all of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to their homes".

It seems so reasonable. Many of my friends say the same thing. BUT. If we would adopt this idea for the many peoples in the World and in Europe that had to move away from their land and support projects of return, we would set much of the world ablaze. Much of Europe, at least.

We can't support Jews projects of return to what no doubt was their homeland before the Romans drove them away. We can't support the Palestinian in a similar idea. We must support the idea of giving both people, two peoples they are, their land and state. Dear CarolC, I don't like no religion, but today I must face the fact that at least for a long long time, not necessarely for ever and ever, one will be a state with a strong Jewish character, and the other a state with a strong Muslim character. In the first case, I must say that Israel has been able for a period to manage being the Jewish state and a laical state as well and the only democracy in the area. I hope the other state will emancipate from being a theocracy. But they can't be a single state, not now, in this very period of history, if we want to consider real situation and not only our ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

That is a thoughtful post, Roberto. But if you support a permanent Jewish majority in Israel, then you also support discrimination and ethnic cleansing of those in Israel who are not Jewish.

The Palestinians have a right to return to their areas of origin under international law and United Nations resolutions. Preventing them from doing so it a crime.

If the Palestinians in occupied Palestine decide that they would prefer a state of their own, I don't think it is my place to argue with them about that. But the Palestinian Israelis will still be facing discrimination and ethnic cleansing in Israel, and I can't support that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

"We can't support Jews projects of return to what no doubt was their homeland before the Romans drove them away. We can't support the Palestinian in a similar idea."

Surely no group can sensibly refer to supposed land rights from a Millenium or two ago?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

1923- The treaty ending WW I created the states in the area- INCLUDING a Jewish Homeland.

Since some here think this does not matter , why don't we invalidate the other nations created at that time, by that treaty?

No more Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, Jordan, etc.

Or is it just Jews that get the shaft?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

If the Israelis planted anything on that ship, seems to me it would be weapons, not gas masks and body armor.

Were any weapons found?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

Jews can have a homeland without having an exclusive state, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

So you agree that the ARAB Palestinian Homeland formed from that same Mandate should be disolved, and Jews allowed to settle there?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

By the way, the Romans didn't drive away the European Jews, because the European Jews' ancestors never lived in the Middle East.

Kendall, no weapons were found.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

Sure, beardedbruce. I think Jews should be able to live wherever they want. As long as they live there as equal citizens and not as occupiers or colonialists.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

Than you disagree with all the Moslim countries, whio have laws against that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:26 PM

Show me the laws, beardedbruce. And not from a Zionist source. Show me the laws from sources that represent the governments in question.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

1923- The treaty ending WW I created the states in the area- INCLUDING a Jewish Homeland.

The Palestinians (some at least of whom had fought on the Allied side in WWI) were not consulted on this, since they were merely darkish people who happened to be in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM

"why don't we invalidate the other nations created at that time, by that treaty?

No more Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, Jordan, etc."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:31 PM

We should let the indigenous peoples of the Middle East decide how their region should be configured in terms of nations and boundaries. It's none of our f*cking business how they configure their region.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

But the trouble is they don't seem to be agreeing how precisely they should configure it. As I think we have all noticed for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM

That's not any of our business, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM

"Jews can have a homeland without having an exclusive state..." ~ CarolC

Muslims are about 40% of the population of Israel. Claiming that the Jewish state excludes them is wrong.

"...the Romans didn't drive away the European Jews, because the European Jews' ancestors never lived in the Middle East." ~ CarolC

Jews lived in Russia and Europe for centuries but they still have ancestry that goes back to the Holy Land.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM

pdq, do you consider Israel to be "the Jewish State"?

And if it's not, why aren't the Palestinians who were driven from their homes allowed to return?

The majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians agree and accept as fact that the European Jews originated from a Turkic people who had an empire in central Europe during the Middle Ages, and that they all converted to Judaism en mass, when their emperor did. They never lived in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM

"but they still have ancestry that goes back to the Holy Land."

Mmm, many Americans claim ancestry that goes back to the UK, maybe English people aught to be barricaded into Cornwall, so you'ze all can 'come home'?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMGq11wQFI&feature=player_embedded

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM

The majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians agree and accept as fact that the European Jews originated from a Turkic people who had an empire in central Europe during the Middle Ages

Probably only partly true at most. There was such a tribe (the Khazars); it's doubtful if they contributed much to the Jewish gene pool in the long term though.

On the other hand, it's pretty certain that many Palestinians are descended from Jews of Holy Land times. It's also true, but conveniently forgotten by Zionist enthusiasts, that it was the Islamic Ottoman Empire that gave refuge to Sephardic Jews from Spain after Ferdibella and the Inquisition expelled them, and to Jewish refugees from Bavaria a little before that. Jews had considerable freedom, and self- governing status, until the decline of that empire brought Western- style racial nationalism to Turkey.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM

Paul, I've already provided more than ample documentation from Israeli sources for this assertion right here in the Mudcat. It happens to be true. There is little to no dispute among Israeli archaeologists and historians that the European Jews are descended from the Khazars. This is accepted as fact by the majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians.

This is simply not in dispute to any significant degree.

On another note...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65222L20100603

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRZi2jOqRho

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:17 PM

"The history of Khazaria presents us with a fascinating example of how Jewish life flourished in the Middle Ages. In a time when Jews were persecuted thruout Christian Europe, the kingdom of Khazaria was a beacon of hope. Jews were able to flourish in Khazaria because of the tolerance of the Khazar rulers, who invited Byzantine and Persian Jewish refugees to settle in their country. Due to the influence of these refugees, the Khazars found the Jewish religion to be appealing and adopted Judaism in large numbers.

Most of the available information about the Khazars comes from Arabic, Hebrew, Armenian, Byzantine, and Slavic sources, most of which are reliable. There is also a large quantity of archaeological evidence concerning the Khazars which illuminates multiple aspects of the Khazarian economy (arts and crafts, trade, agriculture, fishing, etc.) as well as burial practices.

(Origins) The Khazars were a Turkic1 people who originated in Central Asia..."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

"Muslims are about 40% of the population of Israel. Claiming that the Jewish state excludes them is wrong."

INCORRECT

As of December 2009. Of the 7.5 million inhabitants of Israel 75.4% of them were Jewish (about 5,660,700 individuals), 20.3% were Arabs (About 1,523,900 inhabitants), while the remaining 4.3% (about 319,200 individuals) were defined as "others"

About 35% of all Israeli Jews are recently (first or second generation) descended from European Jews

Most Arab citizens of Israel are Muslim, particularly of the Sunni branch of Islam, and there is a significant Arab Christian minority from various denominations, as well as Arab Druze, among other religious communities.



Israeli Arabs have generally remained moderate throughout the years; they have enjoyed the benefits of an advanced economy, but they suffer serious discrimination in housing, access to resources and political representation.

However, as has been observed
"The fear of ethnic cleansing among the Arabs of Israel is real and growing. The current Israeli government is reinforcing this fear implicitly by requiring this vulnerable community to become even more compliant, with recent discussions of the need for a loyalty oath.

Furthermore, Foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman has introduced legislation, clearly targeting the Arab community, which if passed would "revoke citizenship or permanent status from any person convicted of terrorist activity or of espionage on behalf of a terrorist organization".
Is there a legitimate reason to apply more pressure on the most moderate Arab community in the Middle East? Such moves will only generate radicals. Israel needs more allies, not adversaries."


In 2001, Human Rights Watch issued a report that stated: "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."
The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system

According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, "Israeli Arabs were underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in higher professional and business ranks.

The Bureau of Statistics noted that the median number of school years for the Jewish population is 3 years more than for the Arab population. Well educated Arabs often were unable to find jobs commensurate with their level of education.

The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."


According to The Guardian, in 2006 just 5% of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20% of the population.[


Hostility to intimate relationships developing across Israel's ethnic divide is shared by many Israeli Jews, who regard such behaviour as a threat to the state's Jewishness. One of the few polls on the subject, in 2007, found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage should be equated with "national treason".

Since the state's founding in 1948 a series of legal and administrative measures have been taken by Israel to limit the possibilities of close links developing between Jewish and Arab citizens.

As civil marriage is banned in Israel, in the small number of cases where Jews and Arabs want to wed, they can do so only by leaving the country for a ceremony abroad. The marriage is recognised on the couple's return.

However Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel.
Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife. Their children will be affected too: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

Carol:

Just one example of the contrary view, with a summary of DNA evidence.

That the Eastern European Jews were not mainly descended from Khazars is evidenced by the simple fact that they spoke German, also known as Yiddish (I'm very sad to have to write that in the past tense).

But that has nothing to do with whether Israelis (or Somalis) are allowed to attack ships in international waters and kidnap the ship's complement. Or that collective punishments are a breach of international law. Or that if you want peace, you'd better start being just.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:33 PM

Emma B.

And the statistics for the Arab nations? How do they treat their Jewish populations?

How have the Minority populations on each side increased/decreased since 1948?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM

"That the Eastern European Jews were not mainly descended from Khazars is evidenced by the simple fact that they spoke German,.." etc.

With respect to those discussing the matter of genetics, this is a substantial side issue. The question surely is whether or not (even were such a claim to such ancestry substantiated) current treatment of Palestinians is reasonable based on such supposed ancestral claims. Or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM

There's quite a lot to work with, but here's a sample...

"Wexler argues from linguistic and other evidence "that the Ashkenazic Jews must have consisted of a mix of Greek, Balkan Romance and Balkan Slavic, Germano-Slavic and Turkic (Khazar, Avar) converts to Judaism and their descendants and only a minority of ethnic Jews—many of whom in all probability came from other parts of Europe rather than Palestine itself." Wexler rejects the Khazar mass migration hypothesis on linguistic grounds, arguing that there was more conversion in place than migration. "Hence, contemporary Judaism is best defined not as the continuation of the Judaism which served as an antecedent of Christianity and Islam, but as a newly Judaized variant of European (mainly Slavic) paganism and Christianity…most of the features of Old Palestinian Judaism and Semitic Hebrew to be found in Ashkenazic 'Judaism' and Medieval Ashkenazic/Modern Israeli 'Hebrew' were latter borrowings rather than original inheritance [original emphasis]." This thesis has been obscured by philo-German and anti-Slavic chauvinism among scholars, Jewish and non-, of Ashkenazi Jewry, by disciplinary blinders, and by inertia."

http://theglobalrealm.com/2010/02/06/the-invention-of-the-jewish-people/

A couple of years ago, I provided a synopsis of Schlomo Sands' book on this subject and another mudcatter provided what they apparently thought was a rebuttal of Sands' main thesis, but when I read the review, its main problem with Sands' work was that he seemed to think he was breaking new ground, and they were saying that what he had published was already common knowledge among Israeli academics. I'll try to find that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM

The above linked article also addresses the genetics issue.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAGnTo4KJo

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

I thought a Jew was someone of the Jewish religion ... genetics is not a matter of religion.

this thread is evolving into lunacy. But then I suspected it would from the beginning.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

Well, number6, I think there are a lot of Jews who feel differently than you about that. I happen to disagree with them also.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM

When the West Bank and Gaza are included, the Muslim population is 40.1% and Jews just over 50%.

When driven out of the Holy Land about 2000 years ago, Jews went to every corner of Europe and started new lives. Saying that European Jews are mostly of Turic descent is just plain silly.

Calling Israel the Jewish State in quite common among Jews but probably disliked by Muslims.

Muslims are officially a majority in 48 countries and hugely influential in 20-30 more. The Jews got a puny piece of land, Muslims got 400 times as much land. The unhappy ones should find a new place to live.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM

Well Carol, Some do ... and some don't.

Digging into genetics we would be surprised to find that we are very much all the same.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM

What would the world look like if the diaspora of all the worlds races reclaimed those lands that they once occupied two thousand years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM

The Jews were not driven out of the Holy Land about 2000 years ago. The descendants of those Jews are still there in the form of Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

When the West Bank and Gaza are included, the Muslim population is 40.1% and Jews just over 50%.

How many of the Muslims (or Christians) in the West Bank and Gaza have Israeli citizenship, pdq? How many of them are allowed to participate in Israeli politics?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:00 PM

The America's would certainly look a bit different for starters. I wonder where the current European descendants would be housed? Alaska?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM

There's a book about the theory of Khazar Jewish antecedents. "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler.

1) Koestler wasn't a historian
2) The book had negiligible historical data to fall back on and is a classic case of the undergraduate student thesis having a pivotal couple of chapters padded out with commonly perceived history (what we would euphemistically call 'extensive backgrounding')
3) Koestler had a lot of hypothesis and conditionally framed sentences and paragraphs. He had very little that was solid in there.
4) Koestler explicitly stated that the Khazar theories should not be used as evidence pror or con Israel's right to exist as a UN recognized State.
5) There was some other stuff in there about racial perceptions which was not historical but very much Koestler.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM

I guess it's a good thing for my arguments that I'm relying on the majority of archaeologists and historians in Israel and not on Arthur Koestler, then, robomatic.

That was a very strange non-sequitur and straw man argument you gave just then. Did you really think I was stupid enough to fall for it?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 04:24 PM

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/3/huwaida

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:01 PM

I noticed in that list of stuff prohibited from being taken into Gaza that it includes musical instruments.

Logical enough, I suppose - after all, as Woody Guthrie wrote on his guitar "This machine kills fascists".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM

Are you sure you've got this right? The Khazars were nice to the Jews, who therefore went to live with them. The Khazars then all converted to Judaism. The Jews then all died out, and the Khazars turned into the European Jews, who therefore had no right to go back to Israel. Well, I can think of several queries, but the main one is this: if the Khazars were so nice to them, how come all the Jews died.
The other query is: are you absolutely sure that all Israeli archaeologists believe this?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:32 PM

I think you should go back and read what I've said again, greg. You are mischaracterizing what I said rather liberally.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

In answer to your question, though the Jews didn't all go to where the Khazars lived. The Khazar emperor converted to Judaism and his subjects all converted to Judaism along with him. Those Jews didn't all die out. Their descendants are the Ashkenazim - the European Jews of today.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:38 PM

Are all of you guys coordinating how you're going to come at me to try to poke holes in what I say? The way you do it is so predictable from one thread on this subject to another. You always do it the same way, and you almost always say the same things or use the same methods. Are you all working for the hasbara people?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:44 PM

"The Khazar emperor converted to Judaism and his subjects all converted to Judaism along with him." ~ CarolC

Please support that claim.

And you know that all converted? Not even 12 that didn't? How about a few hundred? A few thousand? Perhaps most?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM

Carol: it's very simple.

(1) We (most of us) are very much opposed to the Israeli state's actions of the last few days.
(2) The origin of European Jews, while interesting, is not very relevant to that.
(3) However, since you brung it up, some of us think your version is a bit controversial.
(4) Let's talk about that stuff later.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Ok. In a minute.


On another note...

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2/israels_explanation_for_deadly_gaza_aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Paul, I didn't bring it up. PEACE did.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

And by the way, you really can't separate that subject out from Israel's behavior towards the indigenous peoples of the Middle East, because Israel and many, many diaspora Jews use that very thing as their central argument for what gives them the right to behave in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

Here you go, pdq...

"The Himyar and Berber proselytes are overshadowed by the Khazars, who ruled from the fourth century, along the Volga, and in the eastern Ukraine, the Crimean peninsula and modern Georgia. The Silk Road and the Don and Volga gave the kingdom a rich and flourishing trade, and means for a powerful army. While the "spoken Khazar language consisted of Hunnic-Bulgarian dialects with others from the Turkic family," "[t]here is no doubt…that the Khazars' sacred tongue and written communication was Hebrew." The Khazars converted over time between the mid-eighth and mid-ninth centuries, and for the same reason "that accounted for Himyar's conversion…[t]he desire to remain independent in the face of mighty, grasping empires…Had the Khazars adopted Islam…they would have become subjects of the caliph. Had they remained pagan, they would have been marked for annihilation by the Muslims…Christianity, of course, would have subjected them to the Eastern Empire." Conversion began with the elite and included the larger population over time. Khazar Judaism was substantially rabbinical, though Kairate Judaism, a Protestant-like sect which regards the Hebrew Bible as solely authoritative, may have flourished also."

http://theglobalrealm.com/2010/02/06/the-invention-of-the-jewish-people/

By the way, the Khazars are not the only non-Jewish population that converted en mass to Judaism. There are others did as well, and they are discussed in that article. So many of the other Jews who are migrating to Israel also do not have Middle Eastern origins.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM

"...many of the other Jews who are migrating to Israel also do not have Middle Eastern origins." ~ CarolC

Fine, but you stared that all Khazars converted to Judaism. Some did, some did not.

You implied that nearly all European Jews were of non-Semitic origin. Also not the case.

This is all part of a carefully-written scam. An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do.

Besides, how many countries exist by popular decree of the United Nations.

As far as who comes to Israeal fter the majority of the world's nations recognized it, well, it's nobody else's buisness but the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM

"An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do."

No, a succesful and consistent demonstration that there is no historical precedent which entitled European Jews to evict and replace palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

What possible difference does it make if European Jews are descended from Turkic Khazars or from people who loived in the Holy Land two thousand years ago?

In neither came does it give them any right to displace the people who were living there when they immigrated.

Even in a literalistic reading of the Old Testament, in which the country was supposed to be gifted permanently to the descendants of Abraham, that would include Arabs every bit as much as Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM

McGrath you are 100% right.

Unfortunately this point is a stumbling block in debates about Israel/Palestine.

It is helpful to be able to clearly distinguish and identify red herrings so that we no longer have to waste time chasing them when they are repeatedly thrown in to the mix.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:05 PM

pdq, the Ashkenazim do not have any ties to the Middle East. The article I posted says that also. The Khazars did convert en mass. They had good reason to do so, because becoming Jewish was their ticket to having a better life than they would have if they didn't. It's all spelled out pretty clearly in the article. None of the article disputes anything I've said, and it's all very much in keeping with accepted common knowledge among Israeli academics. The carefully written scam is the one what you have been taught to believe. You should read that whole article. You've been fed a pack of lies your whole life.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM

...the one that you have been taught to believe

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:36 PM

Here's some more background on that subject...

http://mideastfacts.org/facts/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=34

http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2007/07/no-rivkele-there-wasnt-roman-exile-of.html

Paul Burke describes this accepted knowledge as controversial. It may be in countries like the US and the UK, but it is not regarded as being at all controversial in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM

Carol C wrote:
I guess it's a good thing for my arguments that I'm relying on the majority of archaeologists and historians in Israel and not on Arthur Koestler, then, robomatic.

What you're relying on is a link. Ain't nothin' there any more solid than Koestler's little book which was not anything like solid. You are relying on your standard tactics of locating links that agree with you and leaning on them HEAVILY. and little else other than slamming your tired tactics out again and again.

But that's okay. Been there, done that with you before! And will again!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:10 PM

Looks to me like you haven't even bothered to read what was in the links, robomatic. And by the way, I didn't just post a link. I posted a link with information inside of it. And it's a hell of a lot more than Koestler, so we can all see that now you are just lying. Which doesn't really surprise me, since all you hasbaratchiks have to work with is lies.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:44 AM

What was this thread about, again?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:33 AM

It was about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swg-nFZS6so

http://gazaflotillasurvivors.posterous.com/attack-came-in-three-phases-says-survivor-abb

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/06/putting-names-to-faces.html

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/06/03/mary-hughes-thompson-free-gaza-co-founder-flotilla-update-from-cyprus/

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/did-israel-try-to-assassinate-sheikh-raed-sal

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:26 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cQ69oKFtVg&feature=player_embedded

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:39 AM

CC: "many diaspora Jews use that very thing as their central argument for what gives them the right to behave in that way."

While Jewish people might *call upon* ancient historic ties to this land as a justification for inhumanitarian actions against the present indigenous peoples, any such call - irrespective of whether or not it might be provable - simply *doesn't* justify it.

It's a moot point.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:59 AM

Unfortunately it's not a moot point, because they are able to garner a lot of support, much of it political support, and raise a lot of funds here in the US using that argument, and these are two things that make it much easier for them to be able to keep on doing what they've been doing, and much more difficult for anyone else to get them to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:28 AM

Could we be spared these Khazars? All we need now are the Knights Templar, the Illuminati and a few Cathars.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM

CC "it's not a moot point, because they are able to garner a lot of support, much of it political support, and raise a lot of funds here in the US using that argument,"

For the sake of this incident I think it's a moot point, though I totally get what your saying. However many people may use it, and however powerful or influential they may be, they are still wrong to try to do so. No amount of supposed ancient ancestral ties to a land, can justify abusing innocent people.

That's like you saying to me 'Once upon a time, my great great great granny probably lived in your village in England. So it's fine for me to come over there, kick you out of your house, and starve and beat you.' You could come up with documents that PROVE your great great great granny once lived in my village, but it wouldn't make any difference. I guess many people would simply disagree with that though.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:38 AM

Aaagh! I'm causing more thread drift!
Think I'll quit it there...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:42 AM

However many people may use it, and however powerful or influential they may be, they are still wrong to try to do so.

I don't disagree with this.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM

Crow Sister: you may say that rights to the land should not be able to be enforced 2000 years on. The trouble is, these 2000 year old bits of history are absoultely part of the present day politics. Israeli attitudes to Jerusalem in the time of David and Solomon, and Palestinian attitudes to the same areas of land, and Islamic attitudes to the Dome of the Rock, are all current realities. They are not just history, however much you would like to wish them away by rational thought.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:31 AM

"They are not just history, however much you would like to wish them away by rational thought."

They are red herrings which distract us from the real issues.

They are also based on mythology and heavily distorted historical sources.

It would be like the Irish claiming to have a right to rule America as St Brendan was the first European to get there.

A Red Herring, not provable and not even the most likely course of events.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

I've been seeing reports that one of the kidnapped aid workers managed to hide three memory chips with video of what happened in her underwear and will be releasing them today. I don't know if these reports are credible, but I'll post more as I find out.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM

This is tangentially related because it happened at one of the many demonstrations against the flotilla massacre...

http://palsolidarity.org/2010/05/12604/


Not one peep that I could find about it in the US mainstream media, either.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM

""Muslims are officially a majority in 48 countries and hugely influential in 20-30 more. The Jews got a puny piece of land, Muslims got 400 times as much land. The unhappy ones should find a new place to live.""

Translate that, if you will, to men with guns and international power coming to where you live and saying "we are relocating these victims of persecution, and your land has been chosen. They will not merely live within your community, they will rule it, and if you don't like it you can go live with relatives or friends elsewhere".

How would you feel about that?

Then imagine that these newcomers began to expand into larger and larger ares of your land, and pushed you back into the least productive corner, then set about starving you out.

I strongly believe you would be out in the street with an AK 47 too.

That is the situation in Palestine, and no amount of spin will change it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:24 AM

U.S. Jewish student loses eye at roadblock protest

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:28 AM

""This is all part of a carefully-written scam. An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do.""

There's that blatant misrepresentation of fact again.

The state is ISRAEL. It's citizens are ISRAELIS.

Some Israelis are of the Jewish faith, and some are not.

There is no such country as "The Jewish State". IT DOES NOT EXIST

Can we now continue to discuss the act of PIRACY committed by the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Arnie
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM

It will be interesting to see if any lessons have been learned when the aid vessel mv Rachel Corrie reaches Gazan waters on Saturday. The Israelis have vowed to intercept it, but have promised that they will act politely. That probably means using rubber bullets instead of live ammunition! My mother is of Jewish descent and has told me that I'm entitled to reside in Israel - that's an offer I definitely will not be taking up.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:15 AM

I have no wish to divert this thread into detailed 'academic' byways or disputes again but just a brief comment about 'The Jewish state'

Der Judenstaat or The Jewish State is a book written by Theodor Herzl, later hailed as the founder of the Zionist movement, published in 1896 in Leipzig and Vienna in which he describes in detail his vision of a Jewish state.

It is interesting that Herzl opposed the efforts already made by Zionist groups to settle Jews in Ottoman-controlled Palestine, arguing that
"important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews.
An infiltration is bound to end badly.
It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened,"
Quoted from The Jewish State, translated by Sylvie d'Avigdor, Nutt, London, 1896, and reprinted by Dover, 1988)

His last literary work Altneuland envisioned a Jewish state which combined both a modern Jewish culture with the best of the European heritage

Herzl did not envision the Jewish inhabitants of the state being religious, but there would be much respect for religion in the public sphere.

He did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs as all non-Jews have equal rights, and an attempt by a fanatical rabbi to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel
He directed his wrath against the nationalist party which wished to make the Jews a privileged class in Palestine.

Herzl regarded that as a betrayal of Zion, for Zion was identical to him with humanitarianism and tolerance

He also assumed that many languages would be spoken, but Hebrew would not be the main tongue. Proponents of a Jewish cultural rebirth, such as Ahad Ha'am were critical of Altneuland.



The terms a 'Jewish State' and the 'State of Israel' are frequently used interchangeably including in the November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly resolution outlining the 'Future Constitution and Government of Palestine'

"Hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish state in the land of Israel to be known as the State of Israel. …Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the "Ingathering of the Exiles"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:29 AM

The spirit of Herzl lives on in modern Israel

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM

Rationalizing homicidal aggression

By John Robson, The Ottawa CitizenJune 4, 2010

One major lesson of history is that humans are frequently vile chumps. Unfortunately, because we are the audience as well as the topic, the lesson often fails to sink in.

I strongly suspect the same problem lies behind our frequent inability, or unwillingness, to draw obvious historical analogies. Presumably we all know exactly what to do the next time Hitler demands part of Czechoslovakia. But we nevertheless stare in bafflement, or worse, at North Korea or Hamas. Why?

Consider this luminous passage about appeasement I just encountered while rereading Peter Calvocoressi and Guy Wint's 1972 book Total War for a seminar I'm teaching on America at war. "Hitler's ravings," the authors say, "were passed over and he was regarded as a man who would make bargains and stick to them because it was difficult to see what to do if he was really a totally different kind of person."

Does this observation not shine a brilliant light on what's happening today, starting with Western regimes begging the Chinese government to help them do something about North Korea sinking a South Korean warship?

I would not say Western governments are completely unwilling to understand the North Korean regime. It is so evidently insane you just look stupid denying it. On the other hand, our would-be statesmen consistently insist that the correct response to any North Korean behaviour, comparatively tame or psychotically violent, is restraint by us. Is it not clear that the North Korean regime does not react well to restraint?

It may be objected with some justice that Pyongyang doesn't react well to anything, but, if it did, it wouldn't be to empty words or carefully harmless sanctions. That tyrannically insane government couldn't care less if the country's entire population starved to death, and they laugh at our reproaches. So what impact are mild sanctions or hollow condemnations meant to have? In short, Western policy toward North Korea is in substance (or lack thereof) driven by assumptions with nothing to recommend them except the difficulty of seeing what to do if they are unfounded.

When it comes to the People's Republic of China, the problem is considerably more acute because China is both stronger and less clearly insane (though Hitler was pretty obviously demented and people didn't let it affect their judgment that he was reasonable). But China is unlikely to be a useful partner in reining in North Korea because the Chinese are its strongest backer. And they are its strongest backer because....

Oh dear. How very many unpleasant ways there are of finishing that sentence and how few pleasant ones. So we assume that China's rulers have limited, reasonable geopolitical ambitions and a fundamentally peaceful diplomatic orientation not because anything they ever do supports that assumption, but because it is difficult to see what to do if they are really totally different kinds of people.

My ruminations on this disquieting subject earlier this week were rudely interrupted by the latest news that Israeli efforts to inspect a convoy headed for Gaza resulted in pacifists attacking IDF members with clubs, knives and guns and getting shot.

Now it is perfectly obvious that Israel is not going to permit uninspected cargoes to enter Gaza and it is obvious why: Gaza is ruled by Hamas, which is sworn not only to destroy Israel, but also to exterminate Jews. (See, again, Article 7 of the Hamas Charter, where rocks and trees erupt in anti-Semitic fury.) No one but Israel would ever be asked to let such an entity import uninspected cargoes for murderous purposes; not only would Canada not permit it under similar circumstances, but also we would not ask Syria to stand for it, or North Korea.

Admit it. If a convoy of activists insisted on bringing uninspected cargoes into North Korea, attacked customs officials who tried to inspect them and got killed, there would be no outcry. We'd soberly note that nations have a right to protect their borders, urge restraint, and perhaps make a grovelling submission to the Chinese government to help us persuade North Korea to shoot the next bunch with smaller calibre weapons.

So what's the deal with Hamas? Why does the press insist on running headlines like "After deadly raid, Israel stands alone" and "Israel's alliances hit the hardest" and "Bloody Israeli raid on flotilla sparks crisis"? I'll tell you. It's because Western diplomats, politicians and journalists pass over Hamas's ravings and members of the convoy chanting about Muhammad's army coming to kill Jews and insist on regarding Hamas as an organization that will make bargains and stick to them because it is very difficult to see what to do otherwise.

So what do we learn from history? So little that, if Hitler did demand the Sudetenland again, we'd probably give it to him.

John Robson's column appears weekly.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:55 AM

"My ruminations on this disquieting subject earlier this week were rudely interrupted by the latest news that Israeli efforts to inspect a convoy headed for Gaza resulted in pacifists attacking IDF members with clubs, knives and guns and getting shot."

Except that there is no evidence that there were any knives or guns.

"Admit it. If a convoy of activists insisted on bringing uninspected cargoes into North Korea, attacked customs officials who tried to inspect them and got killed, there would be no outcry."

The activists and ships were inspected by customs officials in Turkey.

If there had been any attempt to attack Turkish or Israeli customs officials the flotilla would have loast all credibility.

So I for one will not agree with this bullshit assertion.

Lets see what US ambassador Edward Peck has to say on the subject ...

            Peck

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:59 AM

Does everyone understand the concept of 'going off at a tangent', that is, prevaricating on all sorts of associated issues leading away from the main topic [aka thread drift]?

********

For me [& I imagine lots others], the ultimate here & now situation is this:

Thousands of innocent civilians in the Gaza Strip are being starved of food, medical supplies & other items necessary to maintain a reasonable quality of life.

Attempts by aid orgs to alleviate the situation are being thwarted, confounded by the militaristic Israeli Empire builders [& I don't say that in any flippant or cynical way] who're backed by US & therefore can continue like this with the protection of Uncle Sam O'Bama & his govt.


Surely, we should be discussing & making suggestions as to how the situation can be addessed.

That's another 2pennyworth, I'll get me poncho!!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

Mr Happy, you are right.

Unfortunately, unless red herrings are caught and shown to be the irrelevant distractions that they are, they can always be used to bolster preconceptions and prejudices.

This can take time, but it is a chore that does have to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:25 AM

re Rationalizing homicidal aggression
By John Robson, The Ottawa CitizenJune 4, 2010

This is John Robson, described as a 'conservative's conservative' writing for the Ottawa Citizen - part of the CanWest Global empire whose unconditional support for the Israeli governments actions and censorship of any dissenting journalistic view has been discussed elsewhere in this thread.

'nuff said!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:31 AM

If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians ... what would the outcome and fate be for the current Jewish inhabitants?

Would this Palestinian state be a democracy?

Curious as what everyone would answer to these questions?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:39 AM

CarolC, it was an Australian photographer, Kate Geraghty, who hid The photos they didn't want seen in her underwear:

"Four assault boats full of soldiers were chasing us and I knew they would board. I knew I just had to shoot as much as I could. With satellite communication jammed there was no way to transmit the images so I used gaffer tape to hide the micro SD cards on my body and in my clothes.

Most of the Israeli boats sped away but a Zodiac stopped beside our boat and the commandos boarded. I was knocked to the ground, perhaps by a stun gun. I got up and a soldier lunged towards me and snatched my camera. Despite numerous searches, including a strip search, I saved three cards. The Israelis found three in my clothing, but I hung on to the others - two on my body and one in some personal gear"

freda

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM

Bill - are you referring to a 'one state solution' for Palentinians and Jews?

"Proponents of a binational solution to the conflict advocate a single state in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with citizenship and equal rights in the combined entity for all inhabitants of all three territories, without regard to ethnicity or religion."
Wiki

Israeli opponents argue that one state would erode the notion of Israel as a Jewish state.
The main obstacle is the fact that demographic trends show the likelihood of a near-term majority Arab population west of the Jordan River (including the land within the internationally recognized borders of the state of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza).

Polls have shown that the probability that Palestinians would constitute an electoral majority in a binational state is seen by many Israeli Jews as a threat to the very premise of Israel, which is imagined as a state for the Jews

One-state solution a pipedream
Thought provoking, balanced article in the Jewish press by Ray Hanania (an Arab-American journalist also known for his stand-up comedy) who describes himself as a 'moderate Palestinian'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:52 AM

Religion's not one've my religions, therefore I wait with baited breath to see world reaction to Rachel Corrie's progress, while strongly hoping, mentalising good wishes & bon voyage to the brave folks manning her [call it secular prayer?]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:00 AM

Emma .... what I'm asking here is for posters to this thread what they would see as the outcome 'if' ... please no links, just your answers

or ... what you feel the solution would be to all of this, and what you foresee of the solution's outcome .. again please no ever ending links.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:04 AM

"This is John Robson, described as a 'conservative's conservative' writing for the Ottawa Citizen - part of the CanWest Global empire whose unconditional support for the Israeli governments actions and censorship of any dissenting journalistic view has been discussed elsewhere in this thread.

'nuff said!"

If you can't refute the content attack the source - weak and pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

Haaretz, one of the two main papers in Israel, has articles with a lot of soul searching about Israel government knee-jerk responses in justifying the atrocities.
I too did not speak out

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

This is a very good article
about the legalities of what happened by Associate Professor Ben Saul of the Sydney Centre for International Law at The University of Sydney. Dr Saul teaches the law of armed conflict and has been involved in such cases in The Hague, the Israeli Supreme Court, and in the Balibo coronial inquest.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:24 AM

Just attempting to clarify No 6 what you actually meant by the rather disingenuous question

"If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians?"

If you want my personal point of view then, it is somewhat in line with the article I linked
- which btw, I hoped would open up the discussion a little beyond simplistic and completely unrealistic (not to mention somewhat provocative sounding) 'what if' scenarios!

That is to say that, some time ago, I would have been on the side of a binational solution to the apparently intractable but accept that this is no longer a realitic proposal and would like to know more about the possibilitiy of a two state solution although the arguments for this from Blair, Bush, Condoleezza Rice etc don't particularly impress me

However, I will retain the right to reply as I please and not how you wish to 'dictate' Bill, without apology, and post the argument for by Noam Chomsky, PhD, Professor of Linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, in a Mar. 30, 2004 ZNet interview which does convince me to this 'solution' at the present time.

"In the short term, the only feasible and minimally decent solution is along the lines of the international consensus that the US has unilaterally blocked for the last 30 years: a two-state settlement on the international border (green line), with 'minor and mutual adjustments,' in the terms of official US policy, though not actual policy after 1971...
Perhaps in the longer term, as hostility and fear subside and relations are more firmly developed along non-national lines, there will be a possibility of moving towards a federal version of binationalism, then perhaps on to closer integration, perhaps even to a democratic secular state
-- though it is far from obvious that that is the optimal arrangement for complex societies, there or elsewhere."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM

"If you can't refute the content attack the source - weak and pathetic."

I apply the same principle to being informed by the UK paper, The Daily Mail, that scores of Polish immigrants at various locations are trapping and BBQ'ing swans and that Christmas decorations have been banned so as not to offend non christians

Sorry for the 'aside' folks

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:10 AM

Well Emma, here's another editorial from the same newspaper which, according to your criteria, is dismissible due to lack of cedibility.

They Shouldn't Have Been There

Israel's soldiers may have acted in self-defence, but boarding a flotilla of aid ships on the high seas violated international law

By Michael Byers, Citizen Special June 3, 2010 Comments (3)


Israel probably regrets its decision to interdict a flotilla of six ships from NATO countries. But instead of apologizing unconditionally, it argues that its soldiers were justified in using lethal force to defend themselves after they had boarded the Turkish-registered Mavi Marmara.

By focusing on this narrow issue, Israel is distracting attention away from the necessary, preliminary question of whether the soldiers had any right to be there in the first place, the answer to which turns on two different strands of international law.

Is the blockade legal?

The interdiction was intended to enforce the three-year long blockade of Gaza, a policy of questionable legality under international humanitarian law -- the so-called jus in bello governing the conduct of armed conflict.

The issue here is not whether blockades in general are legal, but whether this particular blockade -- which extends to most civilian goods and thus has serious affects on non-belligerents --goes too far.

Last year, the UN Human Rights Council asked Justice Richard Goldstone, the former chief prosecutor of the UN International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda, to investigate the matter.

Goldstone found that the blockade was a form of collective punishment directed against the population of Gaza, and thus a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention which Israel ratified in 1951.

Collective punishment is also prohibited under customary international law which applies even if, as Israel argues, it is no longer an occupying power in Gaza and therefore not constrained by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Last November, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon issued his own report, which also focused on the indiscriminate nature of the blockade and called for it to be lifted. He wrote: "In particular, the Government of Israel should allow unimpeded access to Gaza for humanitarian aid and the non-humanitarian goods needed for the reconstruction of properties and infrastructure."

If Goldstone and Ban are right, the Israeli blockade itself is illegal, and so, too, is any attempt to enforce it against ships carrying nothing more than humanitarian aid.

Does self-defence stretch this far?

Regardless of the legality of the blockade, Israel -- like all other countries -- has an inherent right of self-defence that is codified in Article 51 of the UN Charter. But the existence of this right does not mean that it extends to the use of force against foreign-flagged vessels in international waters when not carrying military supplies destined for a belligerent party.

Self-defence is an exception to the UN Charter's prohibition on the use or threat of force against the "territorial integrity or political independence" of nation-states. As an exception, the right of self-defence must be narrowly construed -- especially when it runs up against other, fundamental rights.

In international law, ships are treated as an extension of the territory of their state of registry. Beyond 12 nautical miles from shore, they exercise one of the oldest rights in international law, namely the freedom of navigation on the high seas.

Self defence is also limited by requirements of necessity and proportionality. For this reason, we must ask whether the Israel Defence Forces acted in a necessary and proportionate way in boarding the vessels -- before they came into contact with the passengers.

Israel has indicted ships in international waters before. In 2002, it seized the Karine A, a freighter in the Red Sea laden with 50 tons of Iranian-made weaponry. But Monday's incident was different, since nobody is suggesting that the ships were carrying munitions to Hamas.

Israeli officials have claimed that the flotilla was opening the floodgates for further blockade-breaking. But although there is legitimate debate about whether the right of self-defence extends to pre-emption, the causal links here are tenuous at best.

The threat was not "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment of deliberation" -- which is the centuries-old test for necessity.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the Israeli soldiers boarded the ship to check it for weapons, but you do not board for this purpose by surprise in the dark of night.

The true motive for the interdiction was revealed by Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman last Friday, when he said that the aid mission was a "violent provocation" that his country was ready to stop "at any cost."

There were other options. Israel could have diplomatically engaged Turkey, arranged for a third party to verify the absence of munitions, and then peacefully escorted the flotilla to Gaza. Such an approach would have done more for its long-term security than this illegal action in support of an indiscriminate and therefore illegitimate blockade.

Michael Byers holds the Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International Law at the University of British Columbia. In 2004, he was a visiting professor of law at the University of Tel Aviv.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/They+shouldn+have+been+there/3104730/story.html#ixzz0ptPetsJE

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM

Rachel Corrie news here:


Meanwhile, the MV Rachel Corrie aid ship is heading towards the coast of Gaza, aiming to break the Israeli blockade.

Activists on board told the BBC's Andrew North in Jerusalem by telephone that they were about 150 miles (240km) away and aimed to arrive just outside Israel's 20-mile (30km) exclusion zone off Gaza by Saturday morning.

They said there were 20 people on board, including five Irish nationals, six Malaysians and nine crew members.

One of the activists, former Nobel peace prize winner Mairead Corrigan Maguire, said their humanitarian aid shipment included cement and construction materials - items banned by Israel.

Israel has made it clear it will not allow the ship - named after a US college student who was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer as she protested about house demolitions in Gaza - to dock in the Palestinian territory.

The Israeli government has instead offered to take the aid in by land, once it has checked there is nothing in the shipment that can be used for weapons.

********

Above excerpt from BBC here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10236884.stm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

There is no such country as "The Jewish State". IT DOES NOT EXIST

Netanyahu, 2 June 2010: "The Jewish state has a right to defend itself"

"Jerusalem, Apr. 19 [2009] (ANI): The Palestinian Authority and the Hamas have rejected Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's precondition for peace talks that the Palestinians recognize his country as a Jewish state."

Oh, whom to believe?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

It has become obvious that Israel is not about to engage in diplomatic relations with any country that opposes its policies. The old Ben-Gurion Zionism is dead. The new Zionism
is totalitarian and obtuse.

The US media is culpable for transmitting Israel's lies.

The Shas Party of Jewish Fundamentalists are in control of Likkud.

Israel is a theocracy.

Rahm Emanuel's father was a member of the Irgun.

Obama and Biden have been snowed by Israel. (Not to mention BP and Wall Street).

Disinvest in Israel now!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:14 AM

Israel has been a theocracy for some time.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM

number6, from all of the information I have, and I have a lot of information from people in Palestine, if Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:36 AM

bobad, it has been proven, both through testimonies, and through the videographic evidence, that the Israelis were not acting in self-defense, that they were the ones who attacked first, and that the ships' passengers were the ones who were acting in self-defense. So that's all the rebuttal that is needed to your editorials.

By the way, those paint pellets that the Israeli government is pretending were all innocent, were full of paint and and glass fragments. The glass fragments caused serious soft tissue damage.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

I don't remember if this was posted previously in this thread or not, but just in case it hasn't been, here it is...

Hamas renews offer to end fight if Israel withdraws

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

But I wouldn't trust Hamas any farther than I trust Israel, which has a lot to do with human-powered ballistics.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM

Hamas has adhered to all of the ceasefires that it has agreed to including unilateral ones, mousethief. There is no reason not to trust Hamas. And whatever else you might want to say about them, their primary concern is the welfare of their people.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM

A bit more about Emily Henochowicz, the Jewish girl from America who lost her eye on Tuesday when Israeli police fired a teargas cylinder direct at protesters in Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM

"There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people"

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"

CarolC, whether you don't know what you are talking about, or you have political reasons to pretend you're blind. It is not a matter of different ideas, but of basic perception of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM

"Hamas has adhered to all of the ceasefires that it has agreed to including unilateral ones, mousethief. There is no reason not to trust Hamas. And whatever else you might want to say about them, their primary concern is the welfare of their people. "


Right. (sarcastic remark)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM

Hamas hasn't done a lot to stop rocket-launchers.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

Oh well while it's ok to post newspaper articles in their entirity here is one from The Idependent**

Wednesday, 2 June 2010
"Of course, they were asking for it"
Mark Steel

It's time the Israeli government's PR team made the most of its talents, and became available for hire. Then whenever a nutcase marched into a shopping mall in somewhere like Wisconsin and gunned down a selection of passers-by, they could be on hand to tell the world's press "The gunman regrets the loss of life but did all he could to avoid violence."
Then various governments would issue statements saying "All we know is a man went berserk with an AK 47, and next to him there's a pile of corpses, so until we know the facts we can't pass judgement on what took place."

To strengthen their case the Israelis have released a photo of the weapons they found on board, (which amount to some knives and tools and wooden sticks) that the naive might think you'd expect to find on any ship, but the more astute will recognise as exactly what you'd carry if you were planning to defeat the Israeli army.
It's an armoury smaller than you'd find in the average toolshed in a garden in Cirencester, which goes to show the Israelis had better destroy Cirencester quickly as an essential act of self-defence.

It's a shame they weren't more imaginative, as they could have said "We also discovered a deadly barometer, a ship's compass, which could not only be frisbeed at someone's head but even had markings to help the assailant know which direction he was throwing it, and a set of binoculars that could easily be converted into a ray-gun."

That would be as logical as the statement from the Israeli PM's spokesman – "We made every possible effort to avoid this incident."

Because the one tiny thing they forgot to do to avoid this incident was not send in armed militia from helicopters in the middle of the night and shoot people.
I must be a natural at this sort of technique because I often go all day without climbing off a helicopter and shooting people, and I'm not even making every possible effort.

Politicians and commentators worldwide repeat a version of this line.
They're aware a nation has sent its militia to confront people carrying provisions for the desperate, in the process shooting several of them dead, and yet they angrily blame the dead ones.

One typical headline yesterday read "Activists got what they wanted – confrontation."
It's an attitude so deranged it deserves to be registered as a psychosis, something like "Reverse Slaughter Victim Confusion Syndrome".

Israel and its supporters claim that Viva Palestina, made up of people who collect the donated food, cement and items for providing basic amenities such as toilets, and transport them to Gaza, wanted the violence all along.
Because presumably they must have been thinking "Hezbollah couldn't beat them, but that's because unlike us they didn't have a ballcock and several boxes of plum tomatoes".

One article told us the flotilla was full of "Thugs spoiling for a confrontation", and then accused them of being "Less about aid and more about PR.
Indeed, on board was Swedish novelist Henning Mankell." So were they thugs or about PR? Did they have a thugs' section and a PR quarter, or did they all muck in, the novelist diverting the soldiers with his characterisation while the thugs attacked them with a lethal spirit level?

But some defenders of Israel are so blind to what happens in front of them there's nothing at all they wouldn't jump to defend. Israel could blow up a cats home and within five minutes they'd be yelling "How do we know the cats weren't smuggling semtex in their fur for Hamas?"

If this incident had been carried about by Iran, or anyone we were trying to portray as an enemy, so much condemnation would have been spewed out it would have created a vast cloud of outrage that airlines would be unable to fly through.

But as it's Israel, most governments offer a few diplomatic words that blame no one, but accept the deaths are "regrettable".
They might as well have picked any random word from the dictionary, so the news would tell us "William Hague described the deaths as 'hexagonal'", and a statement from the US senate said "It's all very confusing. In future let's hope they make every effort to avoid a similar incident."










one of the youngest UK national daily newspapers. The daily edition was named National Newspaper of the Year at the 2004 British Press Awards. Originally a broadsheet newspaper, since 2003 it has been published in a tabloid format. The Independent is regarded as leaning to the left politically, although it has not affiliated itself to any political party and a range of views can be found on its editorial and comment pages.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gowX__3_lydhbbod1bkCtlWMPf3g

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM

btw The Independent is one of the youngest UK national daily newspapers.
The daily edition was named National Newspaper of the Year at the 2004 British Press Awards.
The Independent is regarded as leaning to the left politically, although it has not affiliated itself to any political party and a range of views can be found on its editorial and comment pages.
- Wiki

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM

CarolC, whether you don't know what you are talking about, or you have political reasons to pretend you're blind. It is not a matter of different ideas, but of basic perception of the situation.

Roberto, it's quite obvious that I am far better informed than you are. Everything I have said is backed up with facts and evidence. You, apparently, have swallowed the propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM

mousethief, Hamas has done a lot to try to stop the rockets. Of course, it's efforts were hampered a bit when Israel massacred a couple of hundred of their police in the massacre of '08/'09. Kind of hard to keep order if all of your police have been blown to bits, and it seems like Israel must have wanted to make it difficult for Hamas to keep order, or they wouldn't have blown up all of those police. But all of that aside, what government has complete control of its people? The people who are firing the rockets are in opposition to Hamas, and they are doing it to undermine Hamas' efforts to bring a resolution to the situation. Hamas has adhered to every ceasefire they have agreed to, including the unilateral ones. This is a fact and is not disputable.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:15 PM

CarolC, your critical sense is so sharp when directed towards Israel and so dull when applied to Hamas. Far better informed: a self-appointed medal.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

Roberto, snipes are not arguments. They are the absence of an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

http://imeu.net/news/article0019152.shtml#1

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM

Krauthammer: Those troublesome Jews


Charles Krauthammer
Friday, June 4, 2010

The world is outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza. Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers.

But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal. Gaza under Hamas is a self-declared enemy of Israel -- a declaration backed up by more than 4,000 rockets fired at Israeli civilian territory. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas claims victimhood when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent Hamas from arming itself with still more rockets.

In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba. Arms-bearing Russian ships headed to Cuba turned back because the Soviets knew that the U.S. Navy would either board them or sink them. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what John Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

Oh, but weren't the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel's offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiel and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza -- as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza.

Why was the offer refused? Because, as organizer Greta Berlin admitted, the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas.

Israel has already twice intercepted ships laden with Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically de-legitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself -- forward and active defense.

(1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense -- fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.

Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks. It is for the same reason America wages a grinding war in Afghanistan: You fight them there, so you don't have to fight them here.

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies -- and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land -- evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

(2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense -- military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (to borrow President Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report, which essentially criminalized Israel's defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli -- the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war -- effectively de-legitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

(3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses -- a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international de-legitimation. Even the United States is now moving toward having it abolished.

But, if none of these is permissible, what's left?

Ah, but that's the point. It's the point understood by the blockade-busting flotilla of useful idiots and terror sympathizers, by the Turkish front organization that funded it, by the automatic anti-Israel Third World chorus at the United Nations, and by the supine Europeans who've had quite enough of the Jewish problem.

What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. Why, just last week, the Obama administration joined the jackals, and reversed four decades of U.S. practice, by signing onto a consensus document that singles out Israel's possession of nuclear weapons -- thus de-legitimizing Israel's very last line of defense: deterrence.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM

Jon Stewart (a "troublesome Jew") on Charles Krauthammer

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

"If you can't refute the content attack the source - weak and pathetic."


So he is right about the statements of fact, since you can only attack the writer?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM

The Australian
June 2nd

"ISRAEL'S murder of the human rights activists on the MV Samoud on Monday brings into focus its policy of disregard for human lives and disrespect for international laws and conventions. This policy has been a product of world apathy to the plight of the Palestinians and US blanket support for Israeli actions.

The policy, best described as "shoot first and explain later", is heavily reliant on a well-funded PR department (Hasbara) in the Israeli government. However, the real support for this policy comes from Western governments, including our own, which have provided support and excuses for Israel's actions in the past and today have to share part of the blame for the killing of innocent civilians.

Israel's policy has been practised on a daily basis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Much of these activities rarely get a mention in the world media. However, the spectacular events and civilian casualties during the war on Lebanon in 2006, the war on the Gaza Strip in 2008 and the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai were well covered in the media. These violations of human rights were hardly investigated, and Israel did not pay any price for its blatant disregard of international law. If anything, these wars have provided testing grounds for Israel's weapons and the footage has been used to sell more arms to the world. One wonders, should not the world community feel responsible for the deaths of those civilians?

Many in Palestine and the Arab world have been calling on the world not to apply double standards when it comes to Israel. Yet many governments, mainly for financial reasons, have found a populist spin to sell to their constituencies to justify the Israeli actions. However, it has become clear the tide is turning and governments that support Israel are running thin on the ground to justify intentional, vicious aggression that violates every norm in our society. Those governments and individuals have to shoulder their responsibility for Israel's latest act.

The world has reacted angrily to the Gaza flotilla events and so it should. It should also express harsher sentiments on the three-year blockade of the Gaza Strip, which amounts to collective punishment forbidden under international law. It is likely, too, that Israel will pay a small price in the short term for its actions. These condemnations are symbolic only and are ineffective in the long term. They need to be followed by decisive actions that will send a message to Israel that the world is not willing to tolerate this any more.

Not only governments have responsibility to act but also every individual who feels compelled to react to this needless aggression and loss of lives. The nonviolent Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions of Israeli products and institutions campaign has been in place for a few years. It empowers every citizen in the world to express disgust at Israel's action.

The Australian government has described Israel's action as deplorable and called for a full investigation. Although this is commendable, the Australian people should demand Australia reassess its close ties with Israel. On the day the government sent ASIO officers to Israel to investigate the passport forging affair, Australia signed a $250 million arms deal with Israel. This speaks volumes on the real relationship with Israel.

The Australian government and others across the world should endorse the BDS campaign, as they did with South Africa, and demand that Israel end the blockade of the Gaza Strip, agree to a UN peacekeeping force, dismantle the illegal settlements and the apartheid wall and enter into immediate and serious negotiations to end this 62-year conflict.

Inaction will be interpreted as an endorsement for Israel's act and a caveat for its next atrocity"


Well now we could go on posting excerpts from the Press ad infinitum - even take a straw poll to detirmine which countries regard the attack and killings on the Flotilla as illegal

Oh, I'm sorry, that would be 'the usual suspects' - The UN, Europe etc.....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:40 PM

This is for you, Roberto.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMpHgw7yVk


beardedbruce, are you trying to make it look like that quote in your post there is from me?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM

...or are you doing that thing again where you act like you think that everyone who is on the other side of an argument from you is a part of a borg collective, so it doesn't really matter which one of us says what?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM

I did not intend to imply that YOU had made the statement- but are you saying it is NOT true?

If that is the case, you had best not complain about personnal attacks, since you are useing them as opposed to a debate on the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:51 PM

By the way, I will use as precedent in my argument in response to Krauthammer, who is not a troublesome Jew, but rather, a troublesome fascist, that Israel attacked Egypt because of a naval blockade. If it was illegal for Egypt to blockade Israel, and if Israel was justified in attacking Egypt because of it, Israel really can't then turn around and say that its own blockade is not an act of war that is subject to defensive action. What's good for the goose...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM

I don't think he's attacking Krauthammer, beardedbruce. I think he's attacking Krauthammer's lies. Big difference there.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM

Carol, BB is repeating a remark addressed to me as I earlier questioned whether a report in a paper which was part of a group dedicated to unconditionally supporting Israeli government actions could/should possibly be regarded as just a teensey weensey itty bitty biased.

I can only reply, as I did previously 04 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM, that I apply the same principles to one of our own UK papers which has a very obvious agenda too.
Strangely, I don't consider querying the objectivity of any source 'weak and pathetic' although sometimes it appears as rare as hens teeth

and btw - I wasn't 'attacking' the source just pointing out as I did for the article I quoted from The Independent

"Of course they were asking for it" 04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

the 'political' stance of the source.

Now maybe we can drop the personal insults and return to the topic?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM

Ok, I'll rephrase, just for you. I think he is attacking what he would suggest are the gross inaccuracies in Krauthamer's assessment of the situation.

Krauthammer, though, is attacking everyone with whom he doesn't agree with his insinuation that they regard Jews as being troublesome. It's certainly an oblique character assassination, but it is a character assassination nevertheless, and since you are endorsing his words, that means that you are also making this character assassination yourself. So you're really not in a position to be pointing fingers about attacking the messenger rather than the message.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM

Crossposted, Emma. But he was using your words against me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM

So I've got some questions for the hasbaristas in this thread. Please show me the law(s) under which Israel claims the right to impose this blockade on Gaza. And please cite the specific language in the law(s) that pertain to this specific case.

And if the law(s) pertain to the rights of belligerents in a war situation, please show me the parts that specify the rights of both sides. That is to say, what right does a country have to enforce a blockade, and what rights do a country have to defend itself against a blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:41 PM

The Irish relief vessel is on the way.

Will more be killed?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

I've been trying to find a live feed from the ship, but so far no luck. I saw a report that the ship had recently been outfitted with camera and satellite equipment so that it could document what happens and broadcast a live feed. I also saw, a couple of hours ago, a report saying that the Israelis had already blocked the satellite. I don't know if this is accurate or not. If anyone has any further information, I would be grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:53 PM

Krauthammer? Really? Where's that "cracking up laughing" smiley?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM

Jewish boat to Gaza sailing in July

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:21 PM

The Rachel Corrie's cargo

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

At the demonstration tonight in Rome, Arab children shouting murderers against Israel. Two days ago, the demonstration in praise of the flottilla with activists shouting murderers at the Jew peole in Rome's ghetto. I'll never support such shame.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:41 PM

It's so sad - Grown men chanting murder against the flotilla members in Israel and yelling that it was a 'crime' that they weren't all shot; then manhandling the young female reporter who filmed them!

Yes makes you ashamed to be human at times

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM

Some people are generalizing to all Jews the criticism that should only be leveled to the people who are committing the acts of oppression, and that's wrong, and whenever we see that happening, we need to speak out against it (and believe me, I spend a lot of my day doing just that).

However, there are just as many people in Israel who are shouting things like "death to the Arabs" and other equally wrong and horrific things. I don't think you serve your arguments very well by singling out only one side of that problem for your condemnation or trying to smear the entire Palestinian rights movement or all Arabs because of the behavior of some people in those groups. Just as it would not serve my arguments if I were to only condemn the behavior of those Jews who are shouting things like "death to the Arabs" or to generalize that behavior to all Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM

The government of Israel didn't just steal the aid from the flotilla. They have also stolen all of the personal belongings of the flotilla members except for the clothes they were wearing when they were kidnapped. That is cellphones, computers, ipads, clothing, money, and everything else they had with them. The dollar value of this theft is enormous.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:17 PM

The Rachel Corrie, an Irish ship, is Malaysian funded by Mahatir Mohamad, the country's former prime minister.
Anifah Aman, Malaysia's foreign affairs minister, said in a statement issued late on Thursday that the Israeli authorities should insure a safe passage for the vessel to Gaza to deliver the humanitarian cargo.
Mairead Corrigan, a Nobel Peace Laureate, is aboard.

Brian Cowen, the Irish prime minister, asked Israel to permit the Irish-owned aid ship, named after an American woman killed by an Israeli bulldozer trying to prevent a house demolition.

The vessel carries cement, a material banned from entering Gaza, in addition to medical and school equipment.

http:/english.aljazeera.net, June 4.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM

sorry to lower the tone here but on an earlier radio comedy approach to the weeks news tonight it was suggested that the Israelis could be called 'anti cementic'

If you didn't laugh occasionally; you'd weep

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM

OK CarolC
Can we see your clear statement that people who say carry signs and chant "Death to Israelis", "Dealt to Jews", "Death to Arabs" and Death to Muslims" all as equally wrong....I will even throw in "Death to Americans and America, which also seems to come up now and then"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:34 PM

Absolutely, Ed. This is what I have said already several times today when I have encountered such behavior on Facebook...

"The young woman who recently lost her eye when she was shot in the face with a tear gas canister by the Israeli border police is Jewish. She paid a much heavier price on behalf of the Palestinian cause than most of us posting to pages like this one. Many Jews pay a much bigger price for their activism than most people because they are isolated from and condemned by their community and often even by their families. We need their help, and they deserve our respect.

We are not fighting "the Jews". We are fighting oppression."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

Emma B: I like it!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM

A little bit of that cement came from me. I had hoped that it would help to keep some Palestinian family warm next winter.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM

"It feel good when all the hate is gone towards those and actions you don't like. It can be an eye opener, a mind opener, a heart opener, and and take a weight from your shoulders"
Quote, source unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM

""If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians ... what would the outcome and fate be for the current Jewish inhabitants?

Would this Palestinian state be a democracy?

Curious as what everyone would answer to these questions?""

Several answers spring to mind:-

1. If my aunt had bollocks she'd be my uncle.
2. This kind of hypothetical question is unanswerable.
3. The question is not germane to the topic, as it seems unlikely that Gaza will ever be in a position to blockade Israel, much less mount an illegal pirate attack on a US ship delivering goods to Israel.

So, if you have no more questions on that subject, can we get back to the realms of reality?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:02 PM

Some of us never had any hate, Ed. No more than the people who were fighting for the rights of African Americans in the US South during segregation, or the people fighting apartheid in South Africa. When oppression and injustice is the order of the day, it is the duty of people of conscience to do everything we can to bring it to an end, especially those of us who are being made complicit through the use of our tax dollars by the oppressors.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM

Does nobody have an answer to my questions?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM

It looks as if at least one word, and maybe more, are missed out from that quote Ed posted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

"Some of us never had any hate"
The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

....and, there is plenty of hate in the world....and in the Middle East...where what happened hundreds or thousands of years ago...are fresh issues today. Hopefully, we do not get swept into that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM

I wish to claim the title of "king of mudcat typos"...if the claim has not been made before:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM

The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.

Ed, if you are accusing me of not being careful in my speech in reference to groups of people, such as Jews, then I think you had better provide some evidence of it, because I take it to be a libel. And I would suggest taking a good look at some of your own posts.

And by the way, I also posted a criticism of an anti-Semitic remark right here in this thread, similar to the one I quoted for you. But it was deleted by the moderators along with the anti-Semitic remark.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:28 PM

Sorry...Carol C, I won't take the bait....and get in an argument...which is easy to do:) I accused you of nothing. Any accusation is in your mind. If it is there (and it's for you to decide)...that's your issue to deal with, not mine.

With all respects to your opinions...and, to nme they are just that....no more value than anyone else's on Mudcat, or in the happy world we live in.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:33 PM

You know, one thing that really burns my britches about a lot of the people here in the Mudcat, and is one of the reasons I find myself spending less and less time here (except for this one thread, which is incredibly important, as far as I'm concerned), is because of the hypocrisy of people like Ed, who insinuate that people who stand up for human rights for all are inciting hatred, while they say nothing whatever about all of the overt racism that is expressed towards Muslims and Arabs right here in the Mudcat and in the larger societal context. There's no excuse for that. It's just racism, pure and simple. Don't speak up for the people who are being brutally oppressed because if you do, you might spread hatred towards those who are oppressing them. Bullshit!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:33 PM

"I wish to claim the title of "king of mudcat typos"...if the claim has not been made before:) "

Ed, 'when you are king dilly dilly, I will be queen' :)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM

Oh, come off it, Ed. This isn't just an insinuation, it's an accusation. Whose intent are you talking about then? You said it in response to what I said about myself.

The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

That quote Ed gave seemed to suggest that hating actions us the same as hating people(though it's hard to tell, since something was wrong with it: ...towards those and actions...??).

I'd suggest that though hating people is always a waste of energy, hating actions is not necessarily so.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:45 PM

And don't try to deny your double standard, Ed. Where was your criticism of Roberto's failure to differentiate the behavior of some Arabs and Palestinian rights activists, and that of the groups as a whole? That's right. You only came after me even though I'm not the one who was generalizing about any groups at all.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

Most Mudfolks dont dare to tread into one sided arguments on Mudcat...because there are traps to be sprung and they get baited and speared by all those claiming to represent "right perspective" on a thread title and an issue....but actually represent only "like thinking" folks that venture there...and are not really interested in debate, or meaningful consideration to an oposing view.   

I have been around life long enmough to recognise it, and not get drawn into it. A look at who has dominated the discussion, is telling as to what has been discussed here. I expect most reasoned mudfolks will avoid this thread...as most of the stuff has been debated and said beforew here anyway. I doubt if any opinions will be influenced by anything anyone has to post...logical, questioning, less logical..because the thread is not one seeking perspective...it is one seeking acceptance of a preconceived opinion...right or wrong.

And here si a big smile:) because efforts to discredit opposing views through bully tactics (male or female) don't work with me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM

Like your arguments aren't one sided, Ed. Fat chance. Give it up. You're just baiting people now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM

Sorry CarolC, I did not see Roberto's comments to refer to him equally. I am just a bad boy, without ethical principles (and principals, being a typo king).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM

So let's put you in the hot seat, then, Ed. Where is your criticism of Roberto's post?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:53 PM

ok Sorry Carol I didn't mean to be flippant I abhor the racism and Islamophobia I've encountered here too.

While I am encouraged to see that some posters condemn the actions of the Israeli government who ordered this attack I was appalled to hear an aquaintance rail about the infamy of 'World Jewry' this last weekend.

Two wrongs have never made a right and I am concerned about the increasing polarization and frankly, hatred, that this necessary humanitarian effort has provoked.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:57 PM

I wasn't thinking about you when I said that, Emma. I'm not sure what you said that you are referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM

While I am encouraged to see that some posters condemn the actions of the Israeli government who ordered this attack I was appalled to hear an aquaintance rail about the infamy of 'World Jewry' this last weekend.

We just have to set them straight, Emma. Over and over and over, as many times as it takes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM

I was appalled to hear an aquaintance rail about the infamy of 'World Jewry' this last weekend.

Idiot, but it's what I said in an earlier post; Israel's actions make antisemitism look reasonable to unthinking folk. That's most of the world.

We antisemites want to save Jews from Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM

The Rachel Corrie is supposed to arrive in Gaza around 2:00 AM GMT if she's not intercepted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

Webcast from the Rachel Corrie

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

'Rachel Corrie' rejects deal
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/05/2010 00:57

Ship rejects Irish gov't deal; Due in Gaza on Saturday morning.

The Irish Foreign Minister, Dr. Michael Martin announced on Friday night that an agreement had been reached with Israel, whereby the Rachel Corrie would proceed to Ashdod where its contents would be checked, unloaded and shipped to Gaza under observation by representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government. The activists rejected this offer, continuing to insist on sailing to Gaza and breaking the Israeli blockade, but also stated (according to the Irish FM) that they would not resist the IDF, should it decide to board the ship.

The ship is expected to close in on Gaza Saturday morning. It's the second attempt this week by the Free Gaza Movement to break Israel's naval blockade of Gaza as well as its closure of that area's land passages to all but humanitarian aid.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:37 PM

""Israel's actions make antisemitism look reasonable to unthinking folk. That's most of the world.

We antisemites want to save Jews from Israel.""

Antisemitism is just as reprehensible as anti-Islamism, or anti atheism.

It is Israel, the government of Israel, and the Israeli Defence Force, that is at fault in this, not Jews, or Judaism.

Until we start blaming the right people, and stop scapegoating the whole of a religious grouping for the actions of a military/industrial hierarchy, we will never get to the nub of the problem.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM

They won't take it to Ashdod because they know Israel won't allow the aid to go through, just as it's not releasing the aid from the rest of the flotilla.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:49 PM

"its contents would be checked, unloaded and shipped to Gaza under observation by representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government."

But of course this would not fuel the propaganda machine which, as is quite obvious, is the purpose of these "humanitarian" flotillas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:53 PM

One of my facebook friends, a young Jewish woman, has had some difficulty figuring out her place in this whole struggle. When I first "met" her, she was lamenting the way she was being treated by other Jews. She was utterly sick and tired of being called things like "self-hating Jew" because of her activism for human rights. I told her at the time to just know that she had my profound gratitude for her courage.

Later on, she went totally in the other direction and started to feel really hemmed in by the anger people are showing towards Israel and the kinds of people we have been talking about here who don't differentiate between the oppressors in Israel and Jews generally. She started getting very involved in organizations that are more of the "Israel, right or wrong" variety. And she told me she feared for world Jewry. I told her I understood, and that wherever I see that kind of behavior, I do my best to nip it in the bud. That was a couple of weeks ago.

Last night, after she saw a picture of the young woman who lost her eye when an Israeli border police shot her in the face with a tear gas canister, she became very emotional and started going totally in the other direction again. She said, "I can't seem to get this blood off my hands. Israel, you've broken my heart." And then she said, "I will always remember what (a friend) said to me... silence = death."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM

"its contents would be checked, unloaded and shipped to Gaza under observation by representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government."

Oh yeah? So where's the aid from the other ships, then? From all of the prior ships that have been intercepted by the Israeli government? The Gazans have never seen a single bit of any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:05 PM

Carol,

From what I can gather there are many Israeli and non Israeli Jews who are dealing with the same personal conflict vis a vis recognition of genuine anti-semitism on the one hand and anger at the Isareli administrations policies and actions on the other hand.

Of these people I have met a couple with very strong minds who are able to keep their focus despite intense family pressure and ridicule and despite the animisoty of Anti-semites, and who have a very clear agenda on the subject of what needs to change in Israel.

Like all people and countries worldwide, most people are vulnerable and manipulable, and they are played buy the media and by lies, while a minority of hard working courageous informed people sacrifice their health and the ease of comfy social acquiescence for a life of honesty and free expression.

Free expression is not a conferred right, it is a state of mind.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:38 PM

The Israelis would not permit the cement, and some other construction materials to go to the Gaza strip; such materials are banned. They would be kept and not sent on to Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:42 PM

God forbid the Gazans be allowed to re-build the buildings the Israelis bombed to smithereens. Or eat nutmeg.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:55 PM

I felt really bad for her, Lox. She's had quite a struggle. I felt especially bad last night when I saw what she wrote. I told her I have blood on my hands, too. I don't think that made her feel any better, though. She has a much more difficult set of choices to make than I do.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM

She's just passed the port of Alexandria in Egypt. They're saying 3 hours if she doesn't encounter any pirates.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:21 PM

Israel has fucked up BIG time with the whole Gaza issue. George Bush did better PR while he was president. IMO, the UN should take over and send in peace-keeping troops and I don`t mean maybe. I have been an Israel supporter for most of my life. For the first time I have as little love for Israel as I do for most countries in the mid-East. I am not about to white-wash Hamas or any other groups that use the Gazans as a tool for propaganda, but the letter I`m penning to Netanyahu--assuming it gets to him--will make clear my extreme disappointment that the ONE country in the world that SHOULD understand the lot of the Palestinians doesn`t. It`s horseshit and I don`t care who knows it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:31 PM

Peace, that post means a great deal to me as one who has frequently found myself at odds with you over the humanitarian crisis in Gaza

I only hope that it may mean something to Netanyahu too.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:57 PM

One sad side effect is that the Windows for Peace concert in Leeds this weekend has been cancelled. A movement meant to build bridges between Moslems and Jews using music. Probably doesn't do much, but wtf.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:23 PM

Update on the Rachel Corrie posted about 20 minutes ago.

http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/06/05/Gaza-TVs-phlog-Israeli-Naval-Ships-On-Way-To-Intercept-Ra

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:39 PM

Israel attempting to board.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM

Go here for live stream...

http://www.livestream.com/shiptogaza

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:42 PM

Rachel Corrie has been taken by pirates.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM

http://www.ipadio.com/phlogs/Gaza_TVNews/2010/06/05/Gaza-TVs-phlog-Rachel-Corrie-Ship-Now-Boarded-And-Under?displayMode=website

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:56 PM

Why couldn't Israel just escort the ship to a Gazan port, and inspect every item as it came off the ship and confiscate any weapons?

Oh wait. They'd also have to confiscate children's toys, wheelchairs, concrete, and nutmeg. That might be embarrassing with the world watching.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:02 PM

Plus, that would be recognizing the people of Gaza as human beings rather than as their door mats.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:08 PM

There's going to be a lot of boats and ships heading for Gaza in the next few months. A lot of boats and ships.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM

Twitter feeds are reporting that the passengers of the ship are saying that she has not been taken but is only being followed by the Israeli pirates. This is very strange.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:20 PM

twitter feed

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:34 AM

She's still steaming toward Gaza. Somebody tweeted that one of their Facebook friends in Gaza can see her about 20 miles off shore.


And here's a good resource for information about the flotilla...

The Flotilla Archive

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:04 AM

More fabricated evidence from the Israeli government...

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/proof-emerges-idf-audio-of-radio-communicatio

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:27 AM

The pirates are ordering the Rachel Corrie to go to Ashdod. the ship has refused two times.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:31 AM

Time to look at an important thread started by Emma b last year, about An Arab Israeli orchestra, known as the West-Eastern Divan orchestra which shows a powerful choice that musicians are making - rather than getting caught up in the blame game, playing music together.

Daniel Baremboim and Edward Said, the joint founders of this orchestra, are helping break down barriers between young musicians from different Middle eastern backgrounds, giving them an opportunity to meet and get to know each other, while learning and making music together. This demonstrates the possibilities of a future when there can be peace in Palestine and Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:59 AM

The pirates are starting to make threats.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:06 AM

Rachel Corrie preparing for possible takeover.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM

Some sources are reporting that she is being boarded. Some reports are saying she is no longer in sight of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:40 AM

She hasn't been boarded yet, and she just refused the pirates 3rd order.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:45 AM

Rachel Corrie has entered Gazan waters. There are pirate gun boats all around her.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM

She refused a third warning. The pirates say they are preparing to take her forcefully, but nothing seems to have happened yet.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:14 AM

One of my facebook friends in Gaza posted this just now...

"every day i wakeup thinking of how would my life be if theire was no siege !!

it will be a really good life , not the best , but better than now !!
the best one , will be when we got the free PALESTINE for ever !! i wish !!"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:41 AM

The Rachel Corrie has been forcibly seized by the Israeli pirates and is being towed to Ashdod. All on board are reported safe.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:50 AM

Now that it's over, I just want to say a word about fabricating anti-Semitic acts.

In the link I provided that proves that the recording that the Israeli government released in which people on the Mavi Marmara were supposed to have made anti-Semitic remarks and a remark that I guess they think a terrorist would make, is fabricated (more stupidity from the hasbara people), we have an example of just about one of the lowest things I can imagine anyone doing short of physically harming someone. They fabricate an act of anti-Semitism in order to smear several hundred good people. Not only do they commit a vile libel against these people, but they do a horrendous disservice to Jews who find themselves subjected to real acts of anti-Semitism, because when people find out that sometimes these things are fabricated as a weapon and to harm other people, they might not take real cases of anti-Semitism quite so seriously.

The Israeli government are just about the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:55 AM

CarolC writes "Roberto's failure to differentiate the behavior of some Arabs and Palestinian rights activists" and asks Ed "Where is your criticism of Roberto's post?". But I didn't put different people all in a bunch. I reported two facts: Arab children at the demonstration in Rome taught by adults to shout "murderers" against Israel and a demonstration getting close to the Jew Ghetto in Rome shouting "murderers" against the Jew people that lives there. Facts, that I said I didn't like. What's your problem, CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 07:08 AM

BBC here:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10245176.stm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM

One of the "peace activists" of the flotilla, Angela Lano, writes for a site whose name speaks for itself, TerraSantaLibera, that is "HolyLandFree". On this site, you can find "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion". That is, the worst racist anti-Semite propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:21 PM

Anybody who publishes the Protocols automatically puts themselves out of the running for being listened to or considered or even spoken about in polite company.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:23 PM

"Racist anti-Semite propaganda."
Excusing the behaviour of the Israelis by hiding behind the accusation of anti-Semitism is shameful.
Whenever criticism of Israel is raised it is met with "Anti Semitism" yet many of my Jewish friends have been the stongest critics of what they have described as 'Zionist Fascism'.
Up to around ten years ago we were protesting the existance of a wall dividing the two Germanys, yet the Israelis have built exactly the same wall for the same purpose.
They have illegally annexed Palestinian land and evicted the legitimate occupants.
They have systematically bombed civilians using chemical weapons; this bombing has included hospitals and schools.
They have illegally blockaded a country, preventing essential supplies from being landed there - including building material to re-build the same hospitals and schools razed to the ground by their bombs.
Comparisons with the Nazis and present day Israel are inescapable, and it is unforgivable that countries like the UK and the USA have continued to either support or ignore what is happening is proof of the old saying "Politics and money speak louder than humanity in todays world".
The very least that should happen is a total cessation of trade with Israel and a boycott of their goods similar to that against fascist South Africa.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM

"Israel's actions make antisemitism look reasonable to unthinking folk. That's most of the world."

There is a world of difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. The latter is perfectly valid as a way of expressing utter disapproval of Israeli occupation and the subjugation of the Palestinian people.

A fear of being labelled anti-Semitic is at least partly responsible for the blind eye that has been turned by the world's governments for several decades to Israel's repeated illegal, anti-humanitarian acts. Now is the time for the rest of the world to say enough is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM

"The very least that should happen is a total cessation of trade with Israel and a boycott of their goods similar to that against fascist South Africa"

Indeed. If we can't get our governments to take a stand, then an international boycott is a good starting point for the rest of us. It helped to end Apartheid...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:35 PM

But I didn't put different people all in a bunch. I reported two facts: Arab children at the demonstration in Rome taught by adults to shout "murderers" against Israel and a demonstration getting close to the Jew Ghetto in Rome shouting "murderers" against the Jew people that lives there. Facts, that I said I didn't like. What's your problem, CarolC?

This is what you said, verbatim:

At the demonstration tonight in Rome, Arab children shouting murderers against Israel. Two days ago, the demonstration in praise of the flottilla with activists shouting murderers at the Jew peole in Rome's ghetto. I'll never support such shame.

Which shame? The protests, or the specific people who said these things? You didn't differentiate. And where is your condemnation for the Israelis who are calling for death to all Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM

"The Israeli government are just about the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine".

Well, as to slimy actions and news fabrications by governments, there are alot to draw from. Take the Kuwait conflict, and consider the example below:


http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

"Up to around ten years ago we were protesting the existance of a wall dividing the two Germanys, yet the Israelis have built exactly the same wall for the same purpose."

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall one of the Germanys sending suicide bombers into the other for the purpose of murdering innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:01 PM

Roberto, it looks to me like you are doing exactly the same thing as the Israeli government. I just had a look at the website to which you refer, and the page that contains the protocols. I used the babelfish translator to see what the text above the protocols had to say and while I couldn't understand all of it, the word "false" appears three times. It looks to me like a warning to people to not believe the protocols should people happen to come across them on the web.

Ed, there is no doubt that there is no shortage of slimy, reprehensible people in governments all over the world. But that doesn't alter what I said. Israel is spitting on the graves of every Jew who died in the Holocaust when they fabricate acts of anti-Semitism in order to smear people and silence them. And they help to create an environment in which people are less likely to believe accusations of anti-Semitism that are true.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM

"Up to around ten years ago we were protesting the existance of a wall dividing the two Germanys, yet the Israelis have built exactly the same wall for the same purpose."

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall one of the Germanys sending suicide bombers into the other for the purpose of murdering innocent people.

Sheesh. That's because the wall was put up by their own government. So who are they going to kill, themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:40 PM

From Alice Walker -


You will have no protection

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM

In an article published 6 years ago about the motives of suicide bombers, Professor Paul Wilson, writer, criminologist and Dean of Humanities and Social Sciences at Bond University concludes...

"In short, interpreting the motives of suicide bombers in simple psychological or religious terms does not get us very far.

Suicide bombers are motivated to commit their carnage because they believe, rightly or wrongly, they have been oppressed and humiliated by the Israelis for decades.

Causing terror among their enemies is one of the few ways left to them to fight back.

What this means is that neither Arafat himself or the might of the Israeli army can stop hundreds if not thousands of young men and women from acting as deadly human missiles.

Their actions most certainly have tragic consequences that may well be described as "evil".

But their motives are political rather than satanic or fanatical and only political solutions will stop the terror from continuing."


Six years later, Arafat has gone, but the sense of injustice and political impotence in the light of the world's indifference to the humanitarian crisis on Gaza following the blockade has only increased.

While Gaza may not have received its desperately needed cement, battery powered wheelchairs and school books etc at least the rest of the world may have opened one eye to their plight

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:44 PM

Let me explain it clearly so that you will understand. The poster stated that the walls were put up for the same purpose. Since Israel put theirs up to help keep suicide bombers out the implication is that that was the same reason for the German wall, which is clearly untrue. But you knew that, it just doesn't fit in with your ideological position.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM

Palestinians are hardly the only people who have used suicide bombing as a tactic. And quite a few (possibly the majority) of the people who have were not Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:48 PM

bobad, suicide bombing is a response to foreign occupation (real or perceived). The civilians who are targeted are those who are represented by the government in question. In East Germany, the government in question was their own. So I ask again... who would they target?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM

CarolC
Yes, there have been, and still are many slimy governments.

And, you, like all of us, are intitled to opinions and personal measurement of slimy governments. But, I found your statement, that, "The Israeli government are just about the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine", (while eye-catching) does a diservice to all others directly impacted by slimy actions by governments.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM

Look, what I am saying is that the poster's assertion that the walls were put up for the same purpose is untrue - that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM

And, you, like all of us, are intitled to opinions and personal measurement of slimy governments. But, I found your statement, that, "The Israeli government are just about the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine", (while eye-catching) does a diservice to all others directly impacted by slimy actions by governments.

Maybe so. Let me rephrase - The people in the Israeli government are some of the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine.



Look, what I am saying is that the poster's assertion that the walls were put up for the same purpose is untrue - that's all.

Yes, that's quite true. The wall around East Berlin was to keep people from being able to leave the city to live elsewhere. The wall around Gaza is to help Israel commit an act of genocide against the population that lives within the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

"The wall around Gaza is to help Israel commit an act of genocide against the population that lives within the wall."

That is untrue, the purpose of the barrier is to help keep suicide bombers out.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM

The wall couldn't keep suicide bombers out if they really wanted to use that as a tactic. The wall is keeping people in, and food and other supplies out. People are dying because of it. This is an act of genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM

I realize that the purpose for the wall doesn't accord with your ideological position but if you look at the statistics of the number of suicide bombings since the wall was mostly built you will find a strong correlation.

"Members of al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad have been less able to conduct attacks in Israel, the numbers of which have decreased in areas where the barrier has been completed"

Some opinions from jihadists:

"Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Abdallah Shalah complained to the Qatari newspaper Al-Sharq that the separation barrier "limits the ability of the resistance to arrive deep within [Israeli territory] to carry out suicide bombing attacks, but the resistance has not surrendered or become helpless, and is looking for other ways to cope with the requirements of every stage" of the intifada."

"Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Salah said that the barrier is an important obstacle, and that "if it weren't there, the situation would be entirely different."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:35 PM

The Apartheid Wall, which separates Palestinian farmers from their lands, and has required the 'relocation' of some 60,000 established olive and other fruit trees growing within the Security Fence is described by the official Israeli government site as
"being built with the sole purpose of saving the lives of the Israeli citizens who continue to be targeted by the terrorist campaign that began in 2000."

HOWEVER -

According to Haaretz
"The security fence is no longer mentioned as the major factor in preventing suicide bombings, mainly because the terrorists have found ways to bypass it"

From the official government report again -

"The land used in building the Security Fence is seized for military purposes, not confiscated, and it remains the property of the owner."

63 shops straddling the Green Line were demolished by the IDF during construction of the wall in the village of Nazlat Issa.
In August 2003, an additional 115 shops and stalls (an important source of income for several communities) and five to seven homes there were also demolished.

In addition to loss of land, in the city of Qalqilyah one-third of the city's water wells lie on the other side of the barrier

The United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA) estimates that in the north of the West Bank approximately 80 per cent of Palestinians who own land on the other side of the barrier have not received permits from the Israeli authorities, and hence cannot cultivate their fields

"The government of Israel recognizes that the security fence is a temporary tool needed to protect innocents while diplomatic efforts for a lasting peace continue."

So temporary that it is an approved 436 miles long and, in some areas, an 8 metre tall concrete wall.

In a 2004 advisory opinion, the International Court of Justice considered that "Israel cannot rely on a right of self-defence or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall".
The Court found that "the construction of the wall, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law

The Red Cross has declared the barrier in violation of the Geneva Convention. On February 18, 2004, The International Committee of the Red Cross stated that the Israeli barrier "causes serious humanitarian and legal problems" and goes "far beyond what is permissible for an occupying power"


Ironically the Apartheid Wall is also opposed by some Israelis......

"The Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish People as the Bible and the God of Israel has indicated.
If the Arabs wish to live in a Jewish State under Israel sovereignty, they must do so in a peaceful and tolerant manner.

The solution to terror is thus not erecting a fence but completely destroying the Palestinazi Authority; expelling all supporters of terror and reinstalling Jewish-Israeli control and sovereignty over all of Judea, Samaria and Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM

He's talking about the wall around Gaza, which conforms to its borders.


bobad, provide some sources for your quotes, please.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM

Song of the Olive Tree Leon Rosselson

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:47 PM

Also, bobad, if they were so concerned with suicide bombers, why did they put Israeli citizens in colonies inside the wall for several years?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:50 PM

Sorry I didn't mean to refer to Gaza, didn't even know there was a wall around Gaza, I am referring to the Security barrier.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:53 PM

Well, that's just a joke bobad. A suicide bomber could easily get around that wall. A lot of the wall doesn't separate Palestinians from Israel, it separates Palestinians from their own fields and villages, as Emma said. That wall is an apartheid confiscatory wall what is being built to create facts on the ground and steal more land from the Palestinians and make it impossible for them to live.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM

http://www.therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=5229

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:41 PM

Great song, Emma.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/04/confrontation-off-gaza-orwellian-spin/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM

I was at the concert where Leon Rosselson performed that song on the video - it was a moving moment
The song is on his CD 'Turning Silence into Song'

The real story behind the song

- The Inventory of Conflict and Environment (ICE) intends to provide a common basis and method for looking at issues of conflict and environment.
The site was conceived of by Dr. James R. Lee
American University, The School of International Service
4400 Massachusetts Ave. NW. Washington, DC.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM

"Indeed. If we can't get our governments to take a stand, then an international boycott is a good starting point for the rest of us."
A Meeting of trades unionists, politicians, clerics et-al has just called for such a boycott to be put in place in Irealand.
"Since Israel put theirs up to help keep suicide bombers out"
Did they - I was under the impression that they put it up to ghettoise the Palestinians and to lower their standard of life in order to starve them out. The wall conveniently cuts many of the Palastinian farms in half, thus depriving their owners of a livelihood - Emma B said all that has to be said on this red herring. Wall building is a tried and trusted technique last used to some effect by the Nazis in Warsaw. As has been more than adequately pointed out, walls don't keep out determined resistance of any form, see the Berlin Wall and, for that matter, the one around the Warsaw Ghetto.
It will be interesting to find out the truth of the claim coming from one of Israel's strongest allies (up to now) that several of the victims of Israel's act of piracy earlier this week were executed by a single bullet in the back of the head. This can only add to the Irraeli Army's growing reputation as one of the most thuggish in the world.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Speaking of boycotts...

Swedish harbor workers have declared a blockade on Israeli ships and goods.

I read somewhere that this is happening in other countries as well, but I don't remember which ones.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM

The hasbara people are now conducting an intimidation campaign in private messages all over the internet. In Facebook today, a Muslim friend told me she had received a hate message, and I was just now told in a private message that I am a self-hating Jew.

LOL That's a first for me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

From Amnesty International 18 January 2010

"Israel claims that the ongoing blockade of Gaza, in force since June 2007, is a response to the indiscriminate rocket attacks launched from Gaza into southern Israel by Palestinian armed groups.

The reality is that the blockade does not target armed groups but rather punishes Gaza's entire population by restricting the entry of food, medical supplies, educational equipment and building materials," said Malcolm Smart, Middle East and North Africa Director, Amnesty International.

"The blockade constitutes collective punishment under international law and must be lifted immediately."

As the occupying power, Israel has a duty under international law to ensure the welfare of Gaza's inhabitants, including their rights to health, education, food and adequate housing

During Operation "Cast Lead", from 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, 13 Israelis were killed, including three civilians in southern Israel, where dozens more were injured in indiscriminate rocket attacks by Palestinian armed groups.

In Gaza, Israeli attacks damaged or destroyed civilian buildings and infrastructure, including hospitals and schools, the water and electricity systems. Thousands of Palestinian homes were destroyed or severely damaged.

An estimated 280 of the 641 schools in Gaza were damaged and 18 were destroyed. More than half of Gaza's population is under the age of 18 and the disruption to their education, due to the damage caused during Operation "Cast Lead" and as a result of the continuing Israeli boycott, is having a devastating impact.

Hospitals have also been badly affected by the military offensive and the blockade.

Trucks of medical aid provided by the World Health Organization have been repeatedly refused entry to Gaza without explanation by Israeli officials.

Patients with serious medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza continue to be prevented or delayed from leaving Gaza by the Israeli authorities – since the closure of crossings leading into and out of Gaza, patients have been made to apply for permits, but these permits are frequently denied. On 1 November 2009, Samir al-Nadim, a father of three children, died after his exit from Gaza for a heart operation was delayed by 22 days."

BUT!

THE BLOCKADE IS MORE THAN JUST THE WALL!

Effect on Gaza fishing industry

The sea blockade has caused the "near collapse" of the Gaza fishing industry. Israel allows fishermen to travel only 3 nautical miles off shore, reduced from 6 nm in 2007.

One fisherman who went outside these limits was forced to strip down to his underwear and swim to the naval vessel.
He was blindfolded, handcuffed and taken in for questioning.
B'Tselem has released a report documenting the "continual shooting at, abuse of, and humiliation of" Palestinian fishermen.
The Israeli Navy's response was that it was checking for smuggled weapons. The Navy reports they intercepted the craft entering Gaza from Egypt.
B'Tselem has released a report documenting the "continual shooting at, abuse of, and humiliation of" Palestinian fishermen.

Israel claims to have further reduced the fishing zone to 3 nautical miles, but in fact is attacking Palestinian fishermen and other civilians even on shore

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has estimated that Gaza fishermen need to journey at least 12-15 nautical miles from shore to catch larger shoals, and sardines in particular are 6 nm offshore.
Shoals closer to shore have been depleted.

The total catch in 1999 was nearly 4,000 tons in pre-blockade 1999. This was reduced to 2,700 tons in 2008.

In the 90s, the Gaza fishing industry was worth $10 million annually or 4% of the total Palestinian economy; this was halved between 2001 and 2006.
45,000 Palestinians were employed in the fishing industry, employed in jobs such as catching fish, repairing nets and selling fish.
Fish also provided much-needed animal protein to Gazans diet.

From New Scientist
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16513-conflict-leaves-gazas-agriculture-in-ruins.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

You know one can't help thinking that if Hamas pledged to do all it could to stop rockets being sent into Israel then there would be no need for the measures Israel is taking to ensure that. Just two days ago four rockets were launched into southern Israel - and on it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM

Hamas did pledge to to that, bobad. And they are doing everything they can to stop the rockets. But Israel has almost completely destroyed the Gazan infrastructure, and Israel killed a lot of their law enforcement people, so they have a lot working against them, and not much working in their favor.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:58 PM

The friend in Gaza whose words I quoted previously in this thread just said this...


"i am so proud to be Palestinian !! so proud to be from Gaza !! so proud of all this people who are standing on our side and beliving in our rights !!
love you all ♥ ♥ !! and i want so badly , to see you all here in Gaza !!"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:15 PM

"You know one can't help thinking that if Hamas pledged to do all it could to stop rockets being sent into Israel then there would be no need for the measures Israel is taking to ensure that."
Dream on - the occupation and the atrocities happened a long time before the rocket attacks - this is, and always has been a totally offensive action by the Israelis in order to expand its borders.
Try asking them if the rocket attacks stopped would they return the occupied territory to its rightful owners.
Israel is a fanatic terrorist nation; the fact that they are a nuclear fanatical terrorist nation gives one pause for thought - don't you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM

"this is, and always has been a totally offensive action by the Israelis in order to expand its borders."

What Jim says is backed up totally in an article in today's Huffington Post by

Dr. Geoffrey Wawro , the General Olinto Mark Barsanti Professor of Military History and Director of the Military History Center at the University of North Texas. He is the author of Quicksand: America's Pursuit of Power in the Middle East

He heads his article "A Head for an Eye' - the limits of 'escalation dominance'

Israel has long defended itself through a "doctrine of retaliatory action," which President Eisenhower angrily characterized in 1955 -- after savage Israeli reprisal raids into Gaza and Jordan -- as "more like a head for an eye than an eye for an eye."

The doctrine has not worked since Israel's 2006 invasion of Lebanon, which, in common with Gaza today, was launched to punish missile attacks (from Hezbollah country) and force the release of two Israeli soldiers seized by Lebanese guerrillas and carried back across the border.

Today, Israel is blockading and intermittently pummeling Gaza (about 1,200 Palestinians were killed in the January 2009 "Gaza War") to secure the release of Sergeant Gilad Shalit, who was abducted in 2006, and to stop the sputter of missile attacks from Hamas country.

But, as events in Gaza now demonstrate, escalation dominance no longer works, and Netanyahu is exposed as having no new usable doctrine to replace it.

The first cracks appeared in the Lebanon War of 2006. When Hezbollah paramilitaries fired Katyusha rockets into northern Israel and seized two Israeli sergeants from a Humvee patrolling the border, Israel reflexively demanded "a head for an eye."
"If the soldiers are not released," the IDF chief of staff growled, "we will turn Lebanon's clock back twenty years."

He wasn't kidding. Israeli airstrikes took out bridges, roads, airports, harbors, water and sewage treatment plants, power grids, schools, hospitals, shops and homes. At least 1,000 Lebanese civilians were killed in the campaign, several hundred Hezbollah fighters, and 121 Israeli troops and 43 Israeli civilians. The attempt at escalation dominance -- ratcheting the rocket attacks and kidnappings into a knock-out blow against Hezbollah -- failed. The two kidnapped soldiers were returned -- in a prisoner exchange -- but they were dead. Hezbollah lived on, and has been rearmed.

Israel was condemned for its disproportionate use of force everywhere but the Bush White House.

Operation Cast Lead in Gaza in December 2008-January 2009 repeated the methods of Lebanon. More than a thousand Palestinians were killed -- including hundreds of civilians -- and factories, workshops, mosques, homes and water treatment plants were destroyed.

When Israel escalates and takes a "head for an eye," it no longer enjoys the respect or connivance of the international community."

full article

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:58 PM

The parallels between apartheid South Africa and Israel are striking - as is the evidence for co-operation between the two regimes, including nuclear weaponry co-operation - Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons (From The Guardian a few days ago.)

The case seems clear for an economic, cultural and sporting boycott similar to that which helped to change things for the better in South Africa, for all its people.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM

"That's because the wall was put up by their own government. So who are they going to kill, themselves?"

Yes - well their own subjects anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM

Another political perspective:
http://www.alarabiya.net/views/2010/06/04/110460.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM

Well,well,well.Its a little like blah, blah,blah ??Canadas position on this matter of high sea piracy is water off a ducks arse..
The CANADIAN PEOPLE not the rigged media polls are dead against this or any other bulling on the planet..Our democraticly selected bottom feeders have no spine or spunk to dig a good bucket a clams.   
Joe CANADA beer buddy don`t stand a rats ass in addressing this terrible atrocity..Last night on TV Ontario there was a debate by 5 members of a panel regarding this issue they were all Jews??
What am i or Joe CANADA to make out a dis. Am i to listen to this waste of tax dollar ?Are we so blind to come up with some rational conclusion ? or more questions?I am JOE CANADA and i and all of the people i know or ever new which is quite a few do not support this utter garbage that the media throws at us..I tell my Jewish friends that Israeli gives Jews a bad name...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM

I also urge the jews to take a stand ..I will NOT knowingly buy any product or service from Israel ..Get this Our Canadian Gov`t just recently asked Israel to monitor our airports security??
What the F--k is that about?
No more ( MK ) ( TK ) or ( K )food for me, i`ll bless my own
THANK YOU!!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:35 PM

Now Noam Chomsky can be turned back at Niagara.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:55 PM

Here's the video that proves the Israelis opened fire first, in a YouTube viewer (which makes it easier to find than the one that was embedded in the large page that I provided before). In it we can see the correspondent saying that there are wounded people on the ship before any of the Israeli terrorists had even left the helicopter...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g

And here's some more information about the killed people (that we know about, there are several people who are still missing). They left behind 28 fatherless children...

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129187§ionid=351020202

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM

This is "democracy" as it is experienced by Arabs in Israel. This is MK Haneen Zoabi, a Palestinian Israeli, who was aboard the Freedom Flotilla. She was the one who was trying to get help for the wounded by calling for help for them in Hebrew. Her calls for help were ignored by the Israelis, and several people bled to death because of it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRf0aB3BNEY

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:08 AM

Boycott Israeli goods

Cool ... the only consumer goods imported to Canada that I'm aware of are Naot shoes and some brand of matzo ... not in need on any new shoes and passover isn't until next spring ... as if anyone reading this thread buys Naot shoes, and/or that particular brand of matzo or any other made in Israel product.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:11 AM

Do you have Teva sandals there, Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:20 AM

BTW .... "I tell my Jewish friends that Israeli gives Jews a bad name"

no 'Israeli' doesn't give Jews a bad name ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name ... the actions of concerns that are the subject of this thread are of the Israeli government ... NOT JEWS.

Unfortunately antisemitics will use the actions of the Israeli government to espouse and promote the hatred of Jews not only in Israel, but worldwide.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:22 AM

Do I have Teva sandals ... nope. I wear Mexican handmade huaraches.

Teva must be part of Naots.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:35 AM

Sorry. I didn't mean you specifically. I was wondering if they sold them up where you are. Mexican huaraches are great.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:41 AM

I haven't seen Tevas for a few years up here.

Mexican huaraches are incredible ..... the rawhide leather and the old tire treads just don't wear out ... comfortable as hell also!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:22 AM

I'm jealous, Bill.


On another note, I'm totally gobsmacked to see something like this in USA Today. I never, never would have expected it...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-06-04-bisharat04_ST_N.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:52 AM

"But Mr Ovenden told the Morning Star: 'This was a peaceful humanitarian mission in international waters. The youngest person on board was not yet one, the oldest was 88 years old.

'We had no weapons on board. The Israelis are displaying knives taken from the kitchen. People did defend themselves with whatever was at hand.

'The attack started with percussion grenades and we feared they would use tear gas. The Israeli commandos attacked from all sides and began shooting almost immediately, initially with so-called rubber bullets but certainly within two or three minutes we heard the unmistakable sound of live rounds.

'A colleague from Viva Palestina, Nicci Enchmarch, was next to a Turkish man who was holding a camera. He was shot through the middle of the forehead. The exit wound blew away the back of his skull and she cradled him in her arms as he died.'

At least four of those killed were shot through the head, he said.

Mr Ovenden praised the Turkish crew of the vessel as "truly heroic in their attempts to prevent further loss of life," saying they had taken two injured Israeli soldiers inside the ship to prevent them being hurt further in the panic and chaos.

Appeals to the Israeli forces telling them their soldiers were safe and that there were wounded people who needed assistance were ignored, he said."


http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/91138

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:23 AM

LIKE I SAID   ( ISRAEL )gives jews a bad name..What is this about a jewish State??Does this mean all within is jewish like the good ol boys club passing the talking stick around or lets spin the bottle for our next bottom feeder leader??
Now let me see,everything i eat in CANADA comes form Jewish owned shopping centers,everything i ware comes from jewish owned factories very thing i here and see comes from jewish controlled TV and radio stations. I just got married with a diamond ring from jewish diamond mining company that has devastated the pristine forests of North West Territories ?and how do CANADIANS feel you ask?Is this collective monopoly of goods and services laws ie.(gun control) and law inforcers,and imigration over seen by CANADIANS ? I think not.
The big excuse is to call my facts anti semetic? I think not. The very fact that it is called a jewish state shows how anti EVERYTHING this state is.who calls the kettle black .Anyone for a bagle? Only in CANADA i say??

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:32 AM

"no 'Israel' doesn't give Jews a bad name ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name"
Unfortunately this isn't true. Sure, there are plenty of anti-Semites around who will use Israel's viciousness to fuel and promote their own bigotry, but hiding behind the 'anti- Semitism' argument to defend that viciousness is despicable. It demeans all the Jews in history who have suffered through real anti-Semitism, most recently those who suffered and died at hands of the Nazis in the ghettos and concentration camps of Europe.
People see Israel as the Jewish State and are bound to equate how they behave there as representative of Judaism, just as here in Ireland, Travellers are judged by the behaviour of the bad ones because that is the public face of itineracy; and for that matter, how the Irish themselves were judged during the recent 'Troubles'.
Acts of State terrorism, piracy, assasination, random executions, the murder of innocent women and children, illegal seizure of territory, torture, the use of chemical weapons on civilians, the deliberate act of destroying peoples' homes, the incarceration of opponents as political prisoners, the persistant abuse of human rights and what verges on ethnic cleansing - criticism of such acts have nothing whatever to do with anti-Semitism; they are an assessment of a repressive regime out of control.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:46 AM

As I said ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name.

I should rephrase ... ignorant and/or antisemitic.

Jim Carroll ... you are correct .. many people are judged from the political actions of the country of their origin ... I'd say those who do judge as such, would fall under the category of ignorant.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM

'LIKE I SAID   ( ISRAEL )gives jews a bad name..What is this about a jewish State??Does this mean all within is jewish like the good ol boys club passing the talking stick around or lets spin the bottle for our next bottom feeder leader??
Now let me see,everything i eat in CANADA comes form Jewish owned shopping centers,everything i ware comes from jewish owned factories very thing i here and see comes from jewish controlled TV and radio stations. I just got married with a diamond ring from jewish diamond mining company that has devastated the pristine forests of North West Territories ?and how do CANADIANS feel you ask?Is this collective monopoly of goods and services laws ie.(gun control) and law inforcers,and imigration over seen by CANADIANS ? I think not.
The big excuse is to call my facts anti semetic? I think not. The very fact that it is called a jewish state shows how anti EVERYTHING this state is.who calls the kettle black .Anyone for a bagle? Only in CANADA i say?? '

Tamarack jack's post here is a perfect example of the muddle-headedness of some contributors [& also of many of un/ misinformed folk all over]



********


Please, please don't confuse all Jews in other countries [also in Israel] of being perfectly in tune & in favour of their [Israel's] govts policies.

There's clear evidence from many parts of the globe including inside Israel itself of the sheer outrage felt by most fair-minded people.

*********

Confusing the issue this way is similar to labelling all Muslims as terrorists - which they definitely are not, & other national stereotypes based on inter cultural ignorance

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM

Furthermore, in all honesty, do the mass of any country or nation always agree/ condone / actively support the mandate of their govts all the time, particularly, as in this case, foreign policy.

We all recall the damage the last UK govt did themselves following their acquiescence in following the Bush regime's illegal invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

The events of 31st May were carried out by The Israeli Defence force on behalf of the Israeli National Government.

The Israeli National Government is made up of those politicians who won the most votes.

It does not represent the views of All Israelis.

It certainly does not represent the views of all Jews.


Tamarack Jack.

It is imortant to be clear about what you boycott.

Boycotting Israeli goods is an legitimate way of inflicting personal sanctions on the Israeli state in protest of its administrations actions.

A blanket boycott of Jewish businesses is not a way of protesting the actions of the Israeli state.

A blanket Boycott of Jewish businesses in Canada or anywhere else outside Israel clearly constitutes Anti-semitism.

The events of May 31st are not an excuse to scapegoat Jews.

I would like to read a clarification from you that you mean to Boycott Israeli goods and not Jewish goods.

If you advocate boycotting all Jewish produce, or scapegoating all Jews in any other way, you can count on full on opposition from me on this thread.

I await your clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

Thank you Mr. Happy, thank you Lox. Right on.


There has been, and currently still is to much hate and anger in this world.

The only hope we have is through understanding, tolerance, humanity and love for our fellow human beings. Only then can these solutions be found.

peace
biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

If your neighbour threatened to kill you and wipe you off the face iof this earth, would you be happy to let him fill his house with weapons and explosives?
This is the unfortunate situation that Israel finds itself in.
For anybody from the USA where the right to bear arms is sacrosanct to criticise a countyry for protecting itself from overt threats, would seem to me to be hypocrisy of the highest order.
I'm sure that, like me, the majority of Israelis want peace with Palestine, but until Hamas and their allies in Iran and other Israel hating countries cease their attempts to obliterate Israel, what else can they do?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:26 AM

Neither Iran nor the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, John. What all of them want is for the Palestinians to have all of the same rights as everyone else. And they want the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to stop.

Remember, it was the Jewish paramilitaries in the months just prior to Israel declaring itself a state, who actually did drive the Palestinians into the sea.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM

"Neither Iran nor the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth"
How is the accuracy of this statement determined?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

Hamas has said that they will accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders. And Iran has never said or done anything that would even remotely indicate a desire to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:40 AM

Questions for consideration (though I suspect this has been debated many times before in Mudcat).

Is it logical for the government in Israel to take the Hamas Charter (elected government of Gaza, and leadership of the Palistians ), and public statements of the leader of Iran seriously? Has the Hamas charter officially changed, since it was established?

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM

As to Iran's leader Is CNN wrong, or has this position changed?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM

"I'd say those who do judge as such, would fall under the category of ignorant."
Yes, but understandably so, and (quite apart for its own inhuman activities) Israel has to bear its share of the blame for the image it projects of Judaism.
"This is the unfortunate situation that Israel finds itself in."
No it isn't - it is in the position of having illegally occupied its neighbour's house (using your own analogy) and facing the consequences of having done so. The women and children non-combatants killed and maimed by Israeli weapons should not be part of this, yet they have been deliberately targeted by the occupiers - I think the euphamism created elsewhere is 'collateral damage'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:55 AM

Ed, Hamas has indicated that they are willing to accept Israel within its '67 borders. They are not willing to revise their charter until they see some indication that Israel will discontinue its long standing program of wiping the Palestinians off the map.

And that CNN article is a pack of lies (no surprise there). What Ahmadinejad quoted from Khomeini was a prediction that eventually, the zionist regime in Jerusalem will be wiped from the pages of time in the same way that the Soviet Union was. He neither mentioned wiping Israel from the map, nor called for anything whatever to be done to Israel. And Komeini is right about that. The zionist regime is in the process of self-destructing right now. It doesn't have very much time left.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM

"Hamas has indicated that they are willing to accept Israel within its '67 borders. They are not willing to revise their charter until they see some indication that Israel will discontinue its long standing program of wiping the Palestinians off the map"

So, where has Israel stated they will "wipe the Palestinians off the map'? (Could some folks be doing what they claim CNN has done)?

This alonbe lies a logical divide and what seems to be a good basis of distrust on both sides.

The CNN story I linked to was widely reported in the media world-wide, and commented on by many national governments, with the same interpretation. It seems quite clear (and,easily interpreted as a threat< if you are on the receiving lines) and if it was inaccurate, where is the later Iran leadership clearification? Sorry, CarolC, I suspect Iran speaks for itself, so sources, rather than outside interpretations, are important. Governments rarely make statements that can be interpreted as treats by another nation, unless they mean it as such.

Seems like a good reason to be concerned, if you

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:15 AM

The rest of my last sentence:

Seems like a good reason to be concerned, if you could be on the receiving end?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM

http://www.freegaza.org/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM

"Israel has to bear its share of the blame for the image it projects of Judaism."

Apart from the appalling humanitarian crisis brought about by the blockade of Gaza .....

Settlements on occupied territory are illegal under international law and even Israeli military lawyers decreed that settlements are illegal when the government first started to allow construction after the 1967 war.

Today, half a million Israelis - 10% of the Jewish population - live in illegal settlements.

In the past, U.S. administration would utter words about stopping settlements but then never follow with pressure. Israelis took this as a green light and continued with construction.

Obama initially attempted to break that tide by ruling out any new construction even for the Israeli euphemism of "natural growth".
However, Defense Minister Ehud Barak in June 2009 nevertheless responded by authorizong the building of 300 new homes in the West Bank, defying U.S. calls for a halt to settlement growth.

The new construction is located around 13 kilometers east of the Green Line, on the "Palestinian" side of the separation barrier. According to the Sasson Report, this outpost was built without government approval and without a master plan and damaged private Palestinian property.

British citizens - following real estate fairs in recent years in London and Manchester that have advertised properties for sale in Israeli settlements such as Maale Adumim and Har Homa (both in the West Bank) - were to be formally advised by the government not to buy property in settlements in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories
The UK government has long insisted that settlements beyond the pre-1967 war "green line" border, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights — both of which have been annexed by Israel — are illegal.

Settler violence has frequently caused concern.

The Israeli government depicts violent settlers as aberrant citizens engaged in rogue behaviour. But a report released by the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) says these ultranationalists have been encouraged by the state to take over Palestinian land and natural resources.

Proponents of the settlements in the occupied terrorties argue that the settlements are actually supporting the US

"Israel is fully entitled to expand existing settlements or build new ones in the disputed territories.
Netanyahu is to be commended for resisting intense international pressure in order to engage in the former and to reserve the right to undertake the latter after final status negotiations have been completed.
By so doing, he is engaging in the well-established Israeli practice of strengthening its physical position in strategic regions, increasing Israel's self-defence capability and undergirding US interests in the region by enhancing the security of America's most reliable ally in the region."

to the historical / religious 'right' to the land

"The so-called West Bank, according to the Bible and tradition, represents the cradle of Jewish civilization, and some Jews, driven by faith and history, wanted to reassert that link"
"The Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish People as the Bible and the God of Israel has indicated......The solution to terror is thus not erecting a fence but completely destroying the Palestinazi Authority; expelling all supporters of terror and reinstalling Jewish-Israeli control and sovereignty over all of Judea, Samaria and Gaza."

The Israeli leadership continues to defy countless UN resolutions pertaining to its policies

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM

Ed, Israel has been in the process of wiping the Palestinians from the map since before it even declared itself a state. It is still doing this in a slow motion ethnic cleansing and genocide. They don't need to state their intention to do it, they just do it, and have been for decades. We don't need to see a declaration of intent from them to know that this is what they are doing. We only need to see what they have been doing and continue to do.


I have already provided more than ample documentation on the subject of the Ahmadinejad quote. But I will go ahead and round it up again just for you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM

On the subject of saying that Israel gives Jews a bad name, I also disagree with statements like this. I think that they arise from ignorance most of the time, and sometimes from anti-Semitism. But I think the ignorance can be understood, to some extent, because Israel is so often conflated with Judaism by Israel itself, and by many diaspora Jews.

People who criticize Israel are almost always called anti-Semitic by many Jews. This is a conflation of Israel and Jews generally. And when this happens, it is rare for Jews to come to the defense of the person who has been attacked in this way. So while I totally disagree with the premise that Israel makes Jews look bad, I understand how such ignorance can take place.

I have been attacked many, many times here in the Mudcat by Jews as being anti-Semitic because of my criticism of the government of Israel. I don't recall ever seeing any Jews come to my defense to say that Israel and "the Jews" should not be conflated in this way. Perhaps if more Jews were to do this, fewer people who aren't Jewish would conflate Israel with Jews generally.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:37 AM

Israel has been in the process of wiping the Palestinians from the map since before it even declared itself a state. It is still doing this in a slow motion ethnic cleansing and genocide. They don't need to state their intention to do it, they just do it, and have been for decades. We don't need to see a declaration of intent from them to know that this is what they are doing. We only need to see what they have been doing and continue to do"

CarolC

Well, I suspect this is your, and many other opinions, which is OK.
However, we were discussing a quote that was reported to be made, that is suggested gives grounds for concern in Israel. (this was in reference to another post, where someone stated Israel has reason to duistrust the Palistinians ((Hamas is the leader) and Iran. Then you jump to a personal opinion. In doing so, it could easily lead to a conclusion that domeone representing the Israel leadership has said this, which I suspect could be seen as a tactic that you frown on CNN for doing.

There are few who suggest that Hamas and the Palistinians have a good reason to distrust the Isrel government. The suggestion was that Israel (the government) also has a good reason to distrust Palistian officials, and Iran (which is a major supporter of Hamas, (the majority factor in the elected government, I believe).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

"So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in Farsi:

"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "regime." pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map." despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

The Proof:

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from)."

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/norouzi.php?articleid=11025



"Ahmadinejad once again fails to call for the annihilation of Israel, despite what you heard on CNN
Posted on February 27, 2010 by Juan

I saw Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren interviewed by Wolf Blitzer on CNN Friday afternoon. Oren said that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had called for the annihilation of Israel, and was therefore speaking of genocide.

It is dreary to see this constant drumbeat of dishonest propaganda. Whatever one thinks of Ahmadinejad or the Iranian regime, one should not misrepresent their statements, since that will lead to bad policy-making.

The Washington Post also wrote, "Ahmadinejad, a Holocaust denier, spoke of Israel's eventual "demise and annihilation". In fact, Ahmadinejad never mentioned Israel as a country at all, and spoke only about what he called the 'Zionist regime.' He favors an admittedly odd form of the 'one state solution' in which Palestinians and at least some Jews would all vote for the same government.

So this is what Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday at a press conference in Damascus:

"Iran, Syria, the Palestinian Resistance and Lebanon are ready to meet any conditions, and we hope that the enemies of the nations of the region will change their course and instead walk beside regional states in cooperation. Insofar as the Zionist regime threatens Lebanon and Syria and prominent personalities of these two countries every day, it must accept its end and grant in their entirety the rights of the Palestinian nation."

That is, Ahmadinejad began by offering an olive branch to any former enemies that wanted to make peace. But he characterized the 'Zionist regime,' i.e. the Israeli government with its current ideology, as intrinsically belligerent, and insisted that this 'regime' must 'accept its own end' and grant Palestinians their full rights (presumably, citizenship and property rights, which they now lack)."

http://www.juancole.com/2010/02/ahmadinejad-once-again-fails-to-call.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:55 AM

Ed, your post that appears just before my last post makes no sense at all.

I told you I would provide sources for what I said about Ahmadinejad. Had you been willing to exhibit some patience, you would have been rewarded. The material is in my last post.


On the subject of the Palestinians and ethnic cleansing, well, if you think words trump actions, then I think that you are living in a fantasy world.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-04/henning-mankell-diary-of-the-gaza-flotilla-israel/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM

"So, where has Israel stated they will "wipe the Palestinians off the map'?"
They don't have to, they are in the process of doing so - watch your television; see the tanks obliterating homes, watch thephospherus bombing, the daily oppression and humiliation......
I would take your point a little more seriously if I could find one word of condemnation of the genocide of Palestinians and all the other war crimes committed by the Israeli Army.
Similarly, the Jewish people would be in a far mor credible position if they turned out in their thousands to protest what is being done in the name of Judaism.
As has been stated on numerous occasions - this is not a defensive war on the part of Israel, it is a territorial war waged against the Palestinian people and the main victims are civilians.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

Well CaroleC, is it reasonable that the Israel government would consider either statement, a reason to trust Iran?...as the earlier post (where the current discussion started), contended. And, not I use the word reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/jun/05/gaza-flotilla-protesters-story?CMP=twt_gu

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

In deploring the construction of the Apartheid Wall and attempting to being to the attention of others the increasing humanitarian crisis in Gaza I too have been labelled anti-semitic by people in this forum.

Far worse, however, is the treatment of those Jewish people throughout the world and in Israel who have also sought to criticise the actions of the Israeli Government.

These courageous people have been labelled 'self-hating' Jews and traitors; eZion calls them
"Jewish Anti-Zionists - The Uncle Yankel Jews"

"....a particular feature of the new European anti-Semitism that has been less commented on. This is the crucial role played by some European Jews themselves, mostly intellectuals or academics, who have responded to the latest assault on the Jewish people by excusing it, justifying it, and in effect joining it.

For the most part, those answering it have been not the long-term, all-out, rabid haters of Israel of the Harold Pinter or (in American terms) Noam Chomsky stripe, who need no excuse and waste no pieties in reviling the Jewish state. "


Dr. Hajo Meyer, a holocaust survivor, spoke in Dublin earlier this year about the lesson he learned from the Nazi Holocaust, which was that "only those who are themselves dehumanised can attempt to dehumanise others, for example to inflict sufferings such as collective punishment. I personally never want to inflict suffering on anybody."
This 86 years old, peace loving humanitarian Jewish scholar human rights activist has been labelled an anti-Semite !

Yael Kahn has described the treatment Dr Meyer received at the hands of pro Israeli Zionists in when speaking in Portcullis House on 27 Jan 10, on Holocaust Memorial Day
He reported that he 'never witnessed such contempt and disrespect to a Holocaust survivor. It is inconceivable that such conduct would have not been labelled anti-Semitic by the same people who were doing the attacking, had Dr Meyer not been anti-Zionist.

It was a personal reminder of an attack on my father, who, like Dr Meyer, grew up in Nazi Germany. My father, Michael Kahn, escaped Nazi Germany in 1937. In 1988 my father joined us at a weekly protest at Dizengoff Circle [in Tel Aviv] against Israeli attacks on Palestinians. He was singled out by Zionist Israelis, who told him in Hebrew: "shame the Nazis didn't finish you off".'

Back in 2002 a peaceful protest by Jewish women was reported as -
"Women In Green will demonstrate at the Rose Garden in Jerusalem (opposite the office of the Prime Minister) during the time the Cabinet is in session on Sunday, against the building of a ghetto wall in the heartland of historic Israel.

The futile act is one that disgraces the dignity and nobility of the Jewish People, and makes a mockery of its basic national aspirations"

This all, as has been said, conflates anti-Zionism with anti-semitism,

defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly ,

Trivializes the meaning and very real existence of anti-semitism,

AND exploits anti-semitism in order to silence debate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM

""The Israeli government depicts violent settlers as aberrant citizens engaged in rogue behaviour.""

Then they should have no difficulty in accepting Hamas' assurances that the primitive rockets, devoid of any guidance mechanism, which randomly impact mostly on empty fields in Israel, are being fired by a small number of militants over whom Hamas has no oversight or control.

After all, what's sauce for the goose,...........

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM

Well CaroleC, is it reasonable that the Israel government would consider either statement, a reason to trust Iran?...as the earlier post (where the current discussion started), contended. And, not I use the word reasonable.

I don't think the actual statement is any reason whatever to try to convince the world that Iran is any threat whatever to Israel. To do so is the height of dishonesty, and it shows that Israel has its own reasons for wanting to eliminate the current regime in Iran that have nothing whatever to do with Israel's safety.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM

Flotilla passengers providing aid to wounded Israeli pirate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

What that last picture shows is the need for Israel to release all of the pictures and video footage that were taken by the flotilla members. Anything short of that is an admission of guilt on the part of the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:52 PM

I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians, civilians of Iraq and Afganistan former Russian territories, the Balkins, and bombing from aircraft, tanks, solders, suicide bombers, rockets, artiliary, drones, committed by any government or military, regardless.And I have no pet causes or civilians that I reserve my condemnation for.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM

I have actually seen this Facebook group's page myself...

An israeli group on Facebook asks for the execution of the M.K Haneen Zoabi

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM

""I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians, civilians of Iraq and Afganistan former Russian territories, the Balkins, and bombing from aircraft, tanks, solders, suicide bombers, rockets, artiliary, drones, committed by any government or military, regardless.And I have no pet causes or civilians that I reserve my condemnation for.""

Very laudable in itself, and I would, in principle, subscribe to that view, just as long as it is not being used as a cop-out to avoid addressing specific incidents, such as government sponsored piracy and murder on the high seas.

Captain Morgan would have been so impressed.

I however am not, and I shall continue to say so very loudly, until somebody makes a move to control the international actions of the ISRAELI (not Jewish) GOVERNMENT.

I will purchase nothing grown in, manufactured in, or shipped from, Israel, until they mend their ways.

I hope that there will be many millions more like me.

Let's see what their response is to their oranges rotting in the fields.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

That's nice Ed. In case you misunderstood my post, I was saying that it is the height of dishonesty on the part of the government of Israel and it shows an agenda on the part of the government of Israel that has nothing whatever to do with Israel's safety. Those comments were not directed at you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

More theft from the Palestinians by the government of Israel...


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/06/05/poor-gaza-wealthy-in-natural-gas/

"Why the slaughter of ready and willing to die, dirt poor Palestinians?

It appears the Freedom Flotilla sailing to Gaza would go through a thicket of off shore oil and gas rigs and wells. The wells are sucking an estimated minimum of US$6 Billion Dollars of Palestinian off shore Natural Gas through rigs set up for slant drilling.

From Peter Eyre The Palestine Telegraph Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:29 EDT

The drilling consultant on the hidden project is the former Noble Drilling Company of Ardmore, Oklahoma, USA, experts in "oil field management." They are also allegedly experts in illegal slant drilling techniques Noble pioneered in the early Oklahoma oil fields back in the day.

Slant drilling is the best way to steal your neighbors' oil and gas.

So much so that the formerly oil and gas poor Israel of Prime Minister Golda Meir is now floating the idea of Natural Gas exports to the European Union (EU) of presumably Palestinian Natural Gas."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

More aid flotillas are on the way. According to reports I'm seeing, one is supposed to leave next Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

They will still be stopped, they need to check for weapons and explosives.
Israel cannot afford to let explosives disguised as bags of sugar and the like into Gaza.
It has happened before.
BTW it is legal to stop a ship in international waters, if you have good reason to suspect they are smuggling weapons or explosives.
So it isn't technically piracy, as someone said it is, earlier.
I agree that things need to improve, but you need less intransigence on BOTH sides for any peace plan to work.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM

"I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians......."
Fine - so do the rest of us - so where does this Anti Semitic crap come from?
Now how do you feel about the Israelis occupying Palestinian territory for 40-odd years?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:01 PM

John, more and more flotillas will come, and they will get bigger and bigger, and more and more people will be on them. Every time Israel stops the flotillas, they piss off more and more people. They can't win. It's over already, the only people who haven't yet figured this out are the Israeli government and its supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:13 PM

Here's more pictures of aid workers providing protection and care to the Israeli terrorist pirates. But instead of recognizing these conscientious humanitarian acts, the government of Israel accuses them of trying to "lynch" the Israeli terrorists and saying that they tried to kidnap them when the aid workers took them below decks to provide first aid...

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/blog-post-israel-hasbara-fails-again-pics-sho


The government of Israel ALWAYS lies. It ALWAYS commits vicious smarmy character assassinations to help it promote its fascist agenda. ALWAYS. The government of Israel can NEVER be believed. Not EVER.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

How about tins of fruit and musical instruments and bags of cement?

A ban on the import of any weapons or explosives to Gaza, the West Bank and also to Israel, now that would make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM

"Fine - so do the rest of us - so where does this Anti Semitic crap come from?"

I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:23 PM

Well, hell, McGrath, if they want to defend Israel from Hamas, I guess they're going to have to prevent any food from getting in, since that can be used to feed members of Hamas and keep them alive.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:27 PM

I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way.

This is precisely the kind of thing I'm talking about. Nobody here has said anything that can be remotely construed as an attack on Jews or an expression of hatred towards Jews (with one possible exception that skirts rather close to the line). But Ed is once again making insinuations that people are because of the criticism of the government of Israel in this thread.

So which is it, Ed? Is criticism of the government of Israel an act anti-Semitism? Because if you're saying it is, then you are saying that there is no difference between the government of Israel and Jews generally. You are saying that whatever the government of Israel does is a reflection on all Jews. Do you really intend to make this assertion?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

"I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way."
So far the only anti-Semitism to appear on this thread has been the accusations of same in postings such as this one.
Once again CarolC said it all - perhaps you would like to be a little more specific in your accusation.
As somebody who grew up in an anti-racist household I find myself highly contemptuous of chancers who use such accusations to defend the indefencible.
And I would like an answer to my previous question (regarding 40 odd years occupation of Palestinian land) - but I don't suppose I'll get one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM

Jim Carroll posted:

"I would take your point a little more seriously if I could find one word of condemnation of the genocide of Palestinians and all the other war crimes committed by the Israeli Army".

"Genocide"-The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. Free online dictionary


In a recent issue of Foreign Affairs....it said that the number of Jews around the world is estimated at 13.1 million, of which 5.4 million live in Israel proper and Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

The total number of Palestinians is estimated at 10.6 million, including 1.4 million in Israel proper, 3.8 million in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, 2.4 million in Jordan, and 3 million in Syria, Lebanon, and elsewhere around the world. (some say that, "by all definitions, 70 percent of Jordon's citizens are Arab Palestinians).

Thus, the overall population in historical Palestine is estimated at 10.6 million, of which 49 percent are Arabs and 51 percent Jews.

I agree, there is alot of very loose of terms (aka crap) and sensational statements on this tread, and it is good to identify it as such, when and where the brown stuff is posted....though it may not be popular by those wishing to spread it among the faithful:)


Source for figures above:

By all definitions, 70 percent of its citizens are Arab Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM

The legal definition of genocide is quite different from that one, Ed. That's another thing I have posted here numerous times.

What Israel is doing in Gaza fits the legal definition of genocide. I don't have time now, but I will provide the documentation later on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM

Legal, as decided by whom?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM

When it is asserted that all criticism of Israel is "antisemitic", the implication is that Jews everywhere are to be identified with Israel.

The implication of that is that Jews everywhere are responsible for the actions of Israel.

And that is very clearly an antisemitic lie.

In other words, the assertion that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic is itself antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:01 PM

Ok, another definition below. It still does not fit:

Resolution 260 (III) United Nations:
Article 2
In the present UN Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article 3

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM

"the assertion that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic is itself antisemitic". That's a good one, LOL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM

"Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would not give a direct answer, nor clearify his statement on Israel, when questioned in Lally Weymouth's Washington Post interview in September 2006:

"Q: Are you really serious when you say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

"A: We need to look at the scene in the Middle East – 60 years of war, 60 years of displacement, 60 years of conflict, not even a day of peace. Look at the war in Lebanon, the war in Gaza – what are the reasons for these conditions? We need to address and resolve the root problem.

"Q: Your suggestion is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth?

"A: Our suggestion is very clear:... Let the Palestinian people decide their fate in a free and fair referendum, and the result, whatever it is, should be accepted.... The people with no roots there are now ruling the land.

"Q: You've been quoted as saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Is that your belief?

"A: What I have said has made my position clear. If we look at a map of the Middle East from 70 years ago...

"Q: So, the answer is yes, you do believe that it should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

"A: Are you asking me yes or no? Is this a test? Do you respect the right to self-determination for the Palestinian nation? Yes or no? Is Palestine, as a nation, considered a nation with the right to live under humane conditions or not? Let's allow those rights to be enforced for these 5 million displaced people."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

someone with some sense weighs in. . .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Ballgame and the Sideshow
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: June 4, 2010

When I covered the 1982 Lebanon war, I learned something surprising about wars: they attract all kinds of spectators, meddlers, do-gooders and do-badders. They use the conflict and the attention it generates to play out their own identity issues, passions and biases. My favorite in Beirut was a gentleman who showed up in August 1982 as the Palestinian guerrillas were sailing out of Beirut harbor. His name — I am not making this up — was Arthur Blessitt, the "Sunset Boulevard Preacher." He had walked to West Beirut from Israel to pray for peace, dragging a 13-foot-long wooden cross with a little wheel on the bottom.


Arthur was harmless; some of the others, though, were mendacious, which prompted me to promulgate this rule: I adore the Israelis and Palestinians, but God save me from some of their European and American friends. Their grandstanding interventions — like those blockade-busters sailing to Gaza or the wealthy American Jews who fund extremist settlers' housing purchases in Arab East Jerusalem — often fuel the worst trends on either side and divert our energies from the only thing that is important: forging a two-state solution.

So is there anything good happening in that regard? Yes. The effort by the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to build the institutional foundations of a Palestinian state from the ground up — replacing the corrupt, jerry-built structure that Yasir Arafat created and Israel destroyed — is actually making progress. This matters — and must be nurtured.

You see, there are two models of Arab governance. The old Nasserite model, which Hamas still practices, where leaders say: "Judge me by how I resist Israel or America." And: "First we get a state, then we build the institutions." The new model, pioneered in the West Bank by Abbas and Fayyad is: "Judge me by how I perform — how I generate investment and employment, deliver services and pick up the garbage. First we build transparent and effective political and security institutions. Then we declare a state. That is what the Zionists did, and it sure worked for them."

The most important thing going on in this conflict today is that since 2007 the Palestinian Authority, Jordan and the U.S. have partnered to train a whole new West Bank Palestinian security force in policing, administration and even human rights. The program is advised by U.S. Lt. Gen. Keith Dayton — one of the unsung good guys. The Israeli Army has become impressed enough by the performance of the new Palestinian National Security Force, or N.S.F., under Abbas and Fayyad that those forces are now largely responsible for law and order in all the major West Bank towns, triggering an explosion of Palestinian building, investment and commerce in those areas.

Here are highlights: the Jordanians have trained and the Palestinian Authority deployed and equipped five N.S.F. battalions and one Presidential Guard unit, some 3,100 men. Plus, 65 Palestinian first-responders have been trained and are being equipped with emergency gear. A Palestinian National Training Center, with classrooms and dorms, is nearing completion in Jericho so the Palestinians themselves can take over the training. The Palestinian Authority is building a 750-man N.S.F. camp to garrison the new N.S.F. troops — including barracks, gym and parade ground — near Jenin. At the same time, the Palestinian security headquarters are all being rebuilt in every major Palestinian town, starting in Hebron. An eight-week senior leadership training course in Jericho — bringing together the Palestinian police, the N.S.F. and Presidential Guards — has graduated 280 people, including 20 women.

A course for captains and below in how to handle everything from crowd control to elections has also begun. The reinvigorated Palestinian Ministry of Interior is leading the Palestinian security sector transformation, and the Canadians are helping to set up Joint Operations Centers across the West Bank so all Palestinian security services can coordinate via video conferencing. The Canadians are also helping the Palestinians to build a logistics center. Parallel with all this, Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu has reduced Israel's manned checkpoints in the West Bank from 42 to 12.

This won't be politically sustainable for Abbas and Fayyad, though, unless Israel begins to turn full authority over to the Palestinians for their major cities — so-called area A — in the West Bank. Palestinians have to see their new security services as building their state, not cushioning Israel's occupation. There could be a moment of truth here for Israel soon, but at least it will be based on something real.

In sum, this dynamic — Palestinians building real institutions from the ground up and getting Israel to cede to them real authority — is the ballgame. Make it work across the West Bank and find a way to transfer it to Gaza (how about reopening the Israel-Gaza border and letting the new Palestinian N.S.F. control the passages to Israel?) and a two-state solution is possible. Let it fail, and we'll have endless conflict. Everything else is just a sideshow.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM

All of these criteria fit, Ed.

In the present UN Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that this last flotilla contained several members of parliament, including European members of parliament, and also at least two Nobel Prize winners, and a veteran of the USS Liberty who was wounded in Israel's attack on that ship. And there were also popular media people and authors. These are not people who can easily be characterized the way the Israeli government has tried to characterize them, and the people from their home countries are not only pissed off that they were attacked by the Israeli terrorists in the first place, but they are pissed off even more about the Israeli government's libels against them. It is the Israeli government's arrogance that will ultimately cause its destruction. Because of what happened this last time, the number of people who are extremely eager to participate in future flotillas has skyrocketed. This, despite the fact that they know they risk their lives if they do so.

It's all over but the shouting.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM

Bandwagon jumpers cannot hope to be taken seriously. It's a life or death situation, not a stroll down 5th Avenue.
If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns, not take a sea cruise that they know will end in a free flight home!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM

John, the people for whom it is a life and death situation are the people in Gaza who are dying because of the blockade.

The government of Israel assumes these people won't be taken seriously at their peril. They have pissed off the whole world. Their days are numbered.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM

The United Nations, on Hamas and the incitement (of hate) and to commit genocide against Israel, Judaism and Jews:

"With the Hamas Charter now binding the Palestinian leadership, its call for the destruction of a Member State of the United Nations is in contravention to Article 2 (4) of the 1945 UN Charter. Article 3 (c) of the 1948 Genocide Convention condemns "direct and public incitement to commit genocide," which is punishable under its article 4. The grave situation in Gaza – and not only in Gaza – is linked to the Hamas Charter of religious and racial hatred, which merits debate at the Human Rights Council as soon as possible".
United Nations, HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL, First special session
5 July 2006

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F35F56D79C729663852571CA006C0F4E

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM

robomatic, I'd like to underline this sentence in T. L. Friedman's article: "I adore the Israelis and Palestinians, but God save me from some of their European and American friends".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM

And yet, more than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed, Ed. If we can do business with a genocidal terrorist state like Israel, then we can also do business with Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

Roberto, Israeli 'historians' have re-written history: "All of the Europeans and Americans who profess the Jewish religion have roots in the Palestinian region."

Perhaps it is time for natives of UK to throw out those Normans and others who have no right to be there.
And time for North American indigenous peoples to don warpaint again.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:22 PM

John,

"If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns, not take a sea cruise that they know will end in a free flight home!"

1. 9 people died on the Mavi Marmara, so to describe them as taking a sea cruise with a guaranteed safe flight home is ignorant crap.

2. The flotilla and the IDF action against it has brought more publicity to the region than thousands of dead palestinians have managed to.

In fact, the more palestinians who die, the more the west becomes numb to it.

3. The ship "Rachel Corrie" is named after a young american girl who stood in front of a bulldozer, only for the driver to deliberately drive over her.

Guess how much international impact this had?

None.

So to recap, The flotilla is proving to be the most effewctive protest yet, and 2, your cmments about Bandwagons are ignorant crap.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM

The Israelis are in their ancestral homeland therefore it's as if the Indians were able to reclaim their lands and yet had to deal with them pesky European squatters. The squatters found some guy in a university who reckoned that yes, the Indians after hundreds of years of displacement and resettlement had done some race-mixing therefore they were no longer Indians how dare they yet the Indians knew all along who they were and where they belonged and acted accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:36 PM

Don't forget that the Palestinians are ALSO in THEIR ancetral homeland.

And SOME Indians have managed to regain control of 'homelands'. Us pesky Europeans be damned. I wish they could get MORE back!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM

Yes, that's a very good point, Lox.

If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns

They are already standing in front of the tanks and guns and getting killed and maimed by the Israeli military in disturbingly high numbers. Lox mentioned Rachel Corrie. She is only the most well known of the human rights workers who have been deliberately killed or maimed by the Israeli military. There are many others. You really need to crawl out of that hole in which you appear to be hiding, John, and take a look around at what is really happening.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM

Suit yourself, robomatic. Write your own history of the world if you want to. But pull up a chair and get yourself some popcorn. You're going to need it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:40 PM

"More than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed"

What was the ratio for the UN Alies Kuwait-Iraq, or and UA-Iraq conflict?

CarolC
Will you tell a family that the loss of their loved one was not as significant, because it was on a lower ratio-kill scale.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM

James Henry Dominic Miller (18 December 1968 - 2 May 2003)

was a Welsh cameraman, producer, and director, and recipient of numerous awards, including five Emmy Awards.
He often worked with Saira Shah with whom he founded and operated an independent production company called Frostbite Productions in 2001. He was killed by a single shot fired by a soldier from the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) on 2 May 2003 while filming a documentary in Rafah. The soldier who shot him was identified in the press as Captain Hib al-Heib.

The Israeli Military Police investigation into Miller's death closed on 9 March 2005 with an announcement that the soldier suspected of firing the shot would not be indicted as they could not establish that his shot was responsible, though he would be disciplined for violating the rules of engagement and for changing his account of the incident.
On 6 April 2006, the inquest jury at St Pancras Coroner's Court in London returned a verdict of unlawful killing, finding that Miller had been "murdered."

After meetings with the Miller family, the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, sent a formal request to his Israeli counterpart in June 2007 for prosecution proceedings to be enacted within six weeks against the soldier responsible for firing the shot

Miller's sister, Anne Waddington, was interviewed by the BBC on the morning of 7 August 2007, the day the six-week deadline was due to expire. She said, "Unfortunately, we have had four and a half extremely painful years of experiencing the Israeli tactics, and they are the masters of delay - they have always played for time, and they have always failed to deliver." She added, "The Israelis put out a lot of false and misleading statements immediately after my brother was murdered, and they did try to suggest he was killed by a Palestinian in the back and as a result of crossfire, but they put out many, many lies and false stories, which of course have been shown not only on the APTN video footage of the actual murder, but also through eyewitness testimony and the additional evidence which was very, very clear at the time." Asked whether she used the word "murder" very deliberately, she replied, "Yes I do, and of course the jury in the inquest last year found, very unusually, that it wasn't just unlawful killing, it was actually murder



Thomas "Tom" Hurndall (27 November 1981 – 13 January 2004)

was a British photography student, a volunteer for the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), and an activist against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. On 11 April 2003, he was shot in the head in the Gaza Strip by an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) sniper, Taysir Hayb. Hurndall was left in a coma and died nine months later.

The IDF initially refused more than a routine internal inquiry, which concluded that Hurndall was shot accidentally in the crossfire, and suggested that his group's members were essentially functioning as human shields.[citation needed] However, witnesses at the demonstration in the Palestinian town of Rafah said he had been hit by a rifle bullet while trying to shield the children rather than having been merely hit in the crossfire, and Hurndall's parents demanded an investigation

Idier Wahid Taysir Hayb (or al-Heib), whose sister Amira al Hayb is the first female Bedouin soldier in the IDF, claimed, he had shot at a man in military fatigues although photographic evidence clearly showed Hurndall was wearing a bright orange jacket denoting he was a foreigner. Hayb was an award-winning marksman and his rifle had a telescopic sight. He claimed to have aimed four inches from Hurndall's head, "but he moved". Hayb said a policy of shooting at unarmed civilians existed at the time

Tom Hurndall's family and their legal team were denied access to the military police report which led to the trial. After an appeal to the Israeli Supreme Court, the state prosecution offered access to the report to the legal team, but not the Hurndall family, in early August. According to a spokesman for the Tom Hurndall Foundation, this will allow them to decide whether Hayb could be indicted for the more serious charge of murder, and to find out if responsibility for Hurndall's death lies higher up the chain of command
Tom's mother Jocelyn Hurndall wrote a commentary in The Guardian on 10 January 2004, in which she stated:
It seems that life is cheap in the occupied territories. Different value attached to life depends on whether the victim happens to be Israeli, international or Palestinian


Brian Avery (born 1979)

is a former American volunteer for the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), who was shot in the face and seriously disfigured on April 5, 2003 while working for the ISM in the West Bank town of Jenin.

According to the Jerusalem Post (9/20/07; 11/19/08), Brian and his associates were "wearing red reflector vests with the word "doctor" in English and Arabic." Avery was hit in the face, his cheek was torn and his eye socket and jaw bones were smashed. The army refused to order a formal investigation of the incident, since that their probe found that no soldiers on patrol in the area that night reported such an incident as it
was described by the four witnesses
Avery appeared before the Israeli Supreme Court on February 28, 2005 to request a criminal investigation into his shooting. He accused Israeli troops of shooting him without provocation. The court responded by ordering the military to reopen Avery's case. Avery's attorney, Michael Sfard, said that the ruling "shows the military that even internal inquiries should be managed professionally and with care to get testimony from all sides, not just from military
In November 2008, Avery accepted a settlement for NIS 600,000 (USD $150,000) from the state of Israel in exchange for dropping the lawsuit. According to Shlomo Lecker, his Israeli lawyer, "The sum does not reflect the injuries Avery suffered... On the other hand, it's one of the very few times the state has awarded damages to anyone hurt by the IDF during the Second Intifada." Lecker said that Avery was willing to settle because of the need to defray some of the costs of the reconstructive operations he must still undergo, in addition to skepticism that the 15-month-long investigation would ever reach a satisfactory conclusion

There was a very moving interview with Tom Hurndall's parents on UK radio earlier today

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM

"...its call for the destruction of a Member State of the United Nations is in contravention to Article 2 (4) of the 1945 UN Charter."

Big deal. Scottish independence or Irish reunification would mean the "destruction" of the Member State of the United Nations known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:09 PM

"More than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed"

What was the ratio for the UN Alies Kuwait-Iraq, or and UA-Iraq conflict?


The ratio for the UN allies was atrocious, and I make it a point to protest the war crimes of the governments involved in those acts of aggression quite often.


CarolC
Will you tell a family that the loss of their loved one was not as significant, because it was on a lower ratio-kill scale.

This question says a lot about you. Because you are defending the actions of the government that is killing the largest number of people. So let me ask you... does the deaths of the many thousands of Palestinians who have been killed by Israel have so little significance that you can't even acknowledge them?

Think about it for a minute. You appear to be totally unconcerned with the many thousands Palestinians who have been killed, and you want us only to think about much smaller number of Israelis who have been killed.

What I am saying is that it is an enormous double standard to say that we can't recognize Hamas because they have killed some Israelis, while we are not only recognizing the Israeli government, but we (me and my fellow US taxpayers) are paying the government of Israel enormous amounts of money every year and also giving them our diplomatic assistance.

If you think this state of affairs is acceptable, it can only be because you do not see Palestinians as human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:02 PM

Sorru, CarolC your attempts at turning a defense into an offense, makes no sense at all:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:07 PM

Can one actually have it both ways, by citing the UN and its directives when it suites a cause, and ignore it, when it does't.
Is this an example of logic one should pay much heed to?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM

Nice try, Ed. But it is you who were trying to turn a defense into an offense when you asked me that question in the first place.

But I take your lack of a real answer to be an answer in the affirmative. You do not see Palestinians as human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:31 PM

Invitation to join the next aid convoy!


Galloway announces new land and sea convoys to break the siege of Gaza

Speaking at a demonstration in London on 5th June which organisers estimated to be more than 20,000 strong, George Galloway announced new land and sea convoys to break the siege of Gaza.

"After extensive discussion in Istanbul," said Galloway, "I can announce that a land convoy will leave Britain shortly after the end of Ramadan in September this year and travel through Europe, down through Turkey and Syria into Jordan. We will ask the Egyptian government then to ensure passage from the port of Aqaba to Rafah and into Gaza.

"At exactly the same time a flotilla of boats will be leaving to tour the countries of the Mediterranean before heading for Gaza.

"These combined sea and land convoys will be co-coordinated by Viva Palestina with other organisations in Britain and with our friends throughout the Middle East and in Turkey.


VIVA PALESTINA!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:43 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/israel-youtube-gaza-flotilla

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:18 AM

http://www.opednews.com/articles/US-Media-Hide-Evidence-Di-by-Dave-Lindorff-100606-487.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:21 AM

Oops. I didn't mean to post that twice. I meant to put this one in that last post. More on the Jewish flotilla...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3899915,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 02:05 AM

Autopsies reveal aid activists shot from behind

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM

"If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns, not take a sea cruise that they know will end in a free flight home! "
"Come out into the open where we can kill you easier" - great idea John.
These were unarmed volunteers delivering relief supplies; the Israelis were a highly trained crack force belonging to an army that has more than proved its vicious readiness in killing unarmed opposition (including women and children btw).
These are the weapons found to have been used on the Mavi Mamara (according to the Sunday Times).
Those found on board ship: stun grenade, catapult, metal bar, knife, broken bottle.
Those in posession of the pirates: paintball gun, tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine gun, Glock handgun.
The "stroll down 5th Avenue" on board the Rachel Corrie was described thus:

"'THEY WERE LIKE HYENAS'
A FULL moon hung over the Mediterranean but somehow the Israeli Zodiac boats eluded its beams. "We couldn't see them until they were up close to us, They were like hyenas circling the boat," said Fintan Lane, a historian and author from Cork who was previously jailed in connection with anti-war protests at Shannon airport.
Lane was one of five Irish citizens on board Challenger One, an American boat, including crew members Shane Dillon from Dublin and Fiachra Ó Luain, a Donegal-based candidate in last year's European elections.
At first, Challenger One tried to outrun the Israeli boats but when the captain suspected they were about to be rammed he slowed the engines. Almost immediately, a stun grenade exploded on board. A second one landed beside Lane.
For a while, the activists impeded the boarding commandos by throwing furniture in front of them but they were soon overwhelmed. "This was a violent attack," Lane said. "They assaulted one of our lookouts. There was a Belgian girl who took a plastic bullet or some sort of missile in the face. She was bleeding from the nose. They wrestled a Palestinian woman with an Israeli passport to the ground. They got stuck into her, I could hear her screaming. : They took one girl to the front and hooded her."
The commandos confiscated phones, cameras and recording equipment. While Kate Geraghty, an Irish journalist, managed to conceal her footage of the raid, Ó Luain, who had been at the bow filming the events on the nearby Mavi Marmara, had his camera seized.
At Ashdod port.the activists linked arms and refused to disembark, saying they did not want to visit Israel. Lane was forcibly transferred on to the quayside where he was informed he would be charged with entering Israel illegally and that the penalty was deportation.
One by one, the other boats arrived ashore. Two Irish citizens of Libyan origin who live in Dublin, Al Mahdi Alharati and Isam Ben Ali, had been on the Greek-owned Sfendoni. "You have arrived in Israel," Ben Ali was informed. "There is no Israel," he replied. "There is Palestine." He told a press conference in Dublin on Friday that he was denied his regular medicine. Ben Ali signed a deportation order because he feared being singled out by the Israelis in jail. Alharati, who says he has diabetes and a heart condition, collapsed at Ben Gurion Airport and was sent to Turkey where he was admitted to intensive care.
Ó Luain insisted he wished to contest his deportation order in Israel's courts, and claimed he was assaulted by "between 15 and 20" uniformed minders. One allegedly threatened to kill him.
There are five Irish people on board the Rachel Corrie. They include Matread Maguire, a Nobel peace laureate from Belfast, Denis Halliday, an assistant secretary general at the United Nations, and Derek Graham, an electrician from Ballina. Graham and Maguire were arrested in the Mediterranean and jailed in Israel in July last year when they attempted to break the Gaza blockade on board the Spirit of Humanity."

Ed T
You fail to state your opinion on the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, so we can presume that you are in favour of it but lack the courage to say so openly - puts your position in context perfectly - thank you.
You also fail to give us any examples of anti-Semitism on this thread so we can also assume that you made it up and your accusation can be seen as a rather pathetic attempt to smear.

Can I unreservedly recommend as an overview of the Palestine conflict the prizewinning film documentary 'Occupation 101' - inspiring and at the same time harrowing. Available on DVD - all proceeds going to the attemps to deliver relief to Gaza.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:54 AM

And yet, more than 100 Palestinians are killed for every Israeli killed, Ed. If we can do business with a genocidal terrorist state like Israel, then we can also do business with Hamas.

How many Iraquis for each US soldier Carol?

The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces, which none of the 'passengers' on other boats did. It would appear that they were more anti Israeli than pro Palestinian!

I sympathise with the desire to end this blockade, but as I said, it's not possible until both sides give a bit.
I don't live in a hole, but I am practical and pragmatic, I see things as they are, and not as I would like them to be.
So many idealists and romantics close their eyes to reality.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:25 AM

These pictures were in a Turkish paper and show injured Israeli soldiers on the ship.
They must have chosen not to shoot to defend themselves.
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=2&rid=2

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:53 AM

Where have you guys been?

If you took the time to read the thread, you would have seen that the following has already been answered.


1. "How many Iraquis for each US soldier Carol?"

From: CarolC - PM
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:09 PM

The ratio for the UN allies was atrocious, and I make it a point to protest the war crimes of the governments involved in those acts of aggression quite often.

2. "The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces,"

This is BS. The IDF attacked the ship. The people on board defended themselves.

To say anything else is to be deceitful to oneself and to others.

3. Keith, if you look back through the thread you will find the rest of the photos from that particular set which show the same soldier (singular) being treated by doctors on the ship after having been brought to them down that staircase.

He Abseiled onto the ship, backed up by a hail of bullets which came before he did so, and when he landed he was beaten down and had his gun taken off him.

Then, instead of being killed, he was taken to a safe cabin where his wounds were tended to.

If any 'mob' had wanted to kill him, it would have happened then.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:44 AM

They must have chosen not to shoot to defend themselves.

How on earth can you assume that? Just because you are shooting people does not make you invulnerabale. There was fightionm when the Israeli commandos stormed the Mavi Marmara, and people tried to defend themsleves agaisnt teh attack. The bottom line is, nine people were killed on one side, and no one was killed ontehkther side.

The Israeli PR exercise has repeatedly said that the only violence that took place was on the Mavi Marmara. That is a lie, as witnesses have testified - the difference is, on the other ships the only violence came from the Istraeli attackers.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 06:26 AM

Unless they replaced his balaclava as they caringly dragged him down the stairs on his back, there are at least two soldiers.
If they were being cared for by their captors, they would be the first such lucky Israeli soldiers in the long history of this conflict.
Usually they are murdered. Their corpses may be kept for exchange value.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM

Lox said it well. Read the thread guys. Don't just jump in here asking questions and making assertions without having read the thread.

John, I don't know what you would expect to prove with your question about US forces and Iraqi deaths. It seems to me you are making a lot of assumptions about my position on the Iraq war. Which, if you had ever bothered to read anything I've ever posted on that conflict, you would already know where I stand.

Keith - read the thread. You are 100 percent ignorant of all of the facts of the situation, which have already been posted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:47 AM

Well, I have read the thread fairly assiduously, and I still have not managed to spot the video evidence that purports to back up this assertion, that the defenders were being shot before the commandos came down the rope, as described by Lox, CarolC etc.
"He Abseiled onto the ship, backed up by a hail of bullets which came before he did so"

I appreciate a lot of people would love this to be true, but I can't myself find anything to suggest that is what actually happened. It may have done, it may not. But where is this evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:51 AM

So.....let me get this straight,then ;
         Israel occupies Gaza. Israel builds settlements in Gaza,and encourages its citizens to move there and build communities. The rest of the world doesn't approve of this,and tells Israel so ,in no uncertain terms. So Israel forces (yes, FORCES) its own people out of their own homes and communities in Gaza, and hands the whole caboodle back to the Palestinians,on the understanding, of course,that the Palestinians don't abuse this arrangement by using it as a platform from which to bombard Israel with rockets helpfully supplied by numerous neighbouring ,extemely hostile,Arab , Muslim countries. Yes ??
    So ....the Palestinians swiftly renege on this agreement,and immediately commence a protracted and sustained bombardment of the nice,helpful,trusting Israelis. The rest of the world looks on, says "Tut Tut !", and,as usual, does fuck all. With me so far ?? Then another hostile country,whose population aren't even Arabs,declares its intention to build nuclear weapons and wipe the said Israel off the face of the Earth !! Faced ,for whatever reason,with mounting hostility and even international opprobrium, the Israelis,thoroughly pissed off with the endless flow of weapons and munitions to their enemies, via a labyrinth of tunnels between Egypt & Palestine,and by sea under cover of "Humanitarian Aid" convoys,decide to get tough, as it is obvious to them that,as usual,the rest of the world is going to do fuck all (again). So,after a confused,badly planned and probably too hastily executed anti-blockade-running military escapade,a number of "Activists", having publicly declared their wish to become "Martyrs" before even leaving port,are killed,bringing even more hand-wringing international opprobrium !
And that constitutes an "Atrocity", does it ??
         I thought that The Holocaust was an "atrocity", but I am afraid I cannot see any justification for using that word to describe the recent debacle (for such it was) off Israel / Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:49 AM

"The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces,"
There is no evidence to substantiate this claim, nor will there be as Israel (once again) has refused an independent enquiry into the incident and has said that they will hold an internal one - and find themselves 'not guilty' no doubt, as they have in the past!!!
However, there is evidence that four of the dead were killed by a single bullet to the back of the head, suggesting they were executed.
We will probably never know, so leaving the field open to your making unsubstantiated claims such as this one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:01 AM

Jim Carroll says
"four of the dead were killed by a single bullet to the back of the head, suggesting they were executed".
Well, it might well suggest that, were it to be true. But I suspect, Jim, that you read the autopsy accounts as I did. Actually, only two out of the nine are reported to have been killed by a single bullet. One in the forehead(Cegdet Kiliclar), one in the front of the neck(Cengiz Songur). This was a shocking incident, there is no need to "improve" the evidence. Those who got a bullet in the back also got shot in the front, suggesting people spinning round when shot, possibly. Anyway, certainly no bullet in the back of the head execution type shooting. Unless, perhaps, you have heard some evidence about this? IN which case, let's hear it. I, by the way, am quoting the Guardian, quoting the autopsy reporty published by the Turkish authoprities. You tell us where you got your execution/back of the head stuff from.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM

..........& at last 'Gorgeous 'George Galloway lends himself to the fray!

http://www.vivapalestina.org/home.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

The images I posted a link to were new images, published just yesterday.
They were taken by the protestors and published in Turkey.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:21 AM

Greg,
Reports from Turkey state categorically that four appear to have been executed in the manner I described - according to The Irish Times (fairly reliable IMO).
If it was a straightforward fight, why should the Israelis refuse an open, neutral enquiry?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:29 AM

Let's see the quote from the Irish Times then.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM

Right, Jim, I have just located the Irish Times acount of this, June 5. As I thought, it contains no reference whatever to anybody being shot in the back of the head by a single bullet. You claim this happend to four of the victims. I suggest you made this up yourself. If not, show us your source.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM

"The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists."

Guardian article last Friday

"Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back.

Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine."

The Times pointed out that the first commandoes to land had indeed been disarmed by the passengers

"A wounded Turkish passenger, Muhyittin Yildirim, said: "Some Israeli soldiers were rendered ineffective.
Our friends got their weapons.
If they had a bad intention, they would have used the weapons against the soldiers but they threw them to the sea."

- In fact no Israel soldier had bullet wounds.

From CNN

"Five of the men died with bullet wounds to the head, said Dr. Haluk Ince, the director of Istanbul's Medical Examination Institute, said Friday
In one case, Ince said, a gunshot victim had been shot at at extremely close range.
"From the analysis of the bullet distance on one of the bodies," Dr. Ince said, "the gun was fired between 2 and 14 centimeters' distance from the victim's head."


The United States-based progressive/liberal news site OpEdNews comments that CNN nevertheless omitted "the all-important fact that most of the victims were shot from behind was left out.
ABC had the same information on Thursday, again without mentioning the shots from behind.
In its article on Friday, the NY Times had yet to even name Dogan, the American victim, much less mention the bullets that hit him or how he was shot.
As of Sunday, the Times had still not reported the nature of the deadly shots fired."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:00 PM

Not sure why you keep talking about the pre-67 boders- the Arab nations have NEVER agreed to them.

Still waiting on your answers to my post of

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM


I think we should also compare how the Israelis treat the occupied territories with how the Arabs treated them from 1948 to 1967.

And what ever happened to those non-Moslim communities on the West bak? I know that many families near where I grew up cam from the Christian town of Ramallah, and were driven out by the Moslims after the 1948 war. THOSE families had been there for hundreds of years, as had the Jewish communities in the Arab nations that were driven out.





Lets just give each person who was driven out a billion dollars- to be split amoung descendents in the cases where the original person has died:

Lets see- 640,000 Palestinain Arabs
          820,000 Arab Jews

that means that the Palestinian Moslims owe $180,000,000,000,000.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM

"An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. 'I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs,' he said. 'I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below …

'We knew they were peace activists. Though they wanted to break the Gaza blockade, we thought we'd encounter passive resistance, perhaps verbal resistance – we didn't expect this. Everyone wanted to kill us. We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything we could to prevent unnecessary injury.'"

{I read several accounts of the autopsy reports and no person died of a single bullet to the back, or back of the head, execution style, as some claim. At least one person had a rear-entry wound, but had four more front-entry ones.}

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM

Turkey ... now there is a country thae exhibits high standards on human rights.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 12:48 PM

Yep, them Turks is just a bunch of peace-loving sweethearts...

"History of the modern Turkish Republic is a history of repression of the Kurds. While it has allowed a degree of tolerance and democracy within Turkey for Turkish population it has shown an absolute intolerance towards the Kurdish question. Identifying oneself as a Kurd is still a crime in Turkey. If one says he/she is Kurdish it is implied that they say there are other ethnic groups in Turkey, it is implied that they want to separate from Turkey. They automatically become members of the PKK and so become 'terrorists'.

In June 2008, several Kurdish child singers were facing prison for singing Kurdish anthem at a function in the United States. Three of them aged 15 to 17 were tried in an adult court in Diyarbekir. They faced up to five years in jail if they were convicted.

Since the establishment of the modern Turkish Republic millions of Kurds have been deported or forced to migrate to Turkish towns and cities or Western Europe, tens of thousands have been killed, similar numbers have been arrested, imprisoned, tortured. Thousands of Kurdish villages have been destroyed. The Kurds have gone through cultural genocide in the hope of getting assimilated. Yet, the Kurdish problem in Turkey is bigger than ever."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

After so many contributions, I think it would be fare to change the title of the thread into something non so one-sided. Something like "Gaza flotilla", or something like that...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

Israel suffers from antiquated thinking which informs their paranoia. First, they are concerned about what "gentiles" think. Second, the don't give a damn what "gentiles" think.
It's an unresolved conflict.

Israel is turning into a theocracy (if they aren't already).

The solution is clear. A Zionist State might be compared to a Christian State. In the long run, unsustainable. However, power sharing between Israeli citizens both Jewish and Arab (Palestinian) is the only workable answer. There is no reason for Israeli Jews to give up their religion while sharing political power with Israeli Palestinians.

Extremist Jewish, Muslim and Christian groups that attempt to force their religion on a political level are the problem.

This is why the Separation of Church and State is the best model.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:05 PM

absolutely terrible.

.

.

goodbye Helen.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:28 PM

"The images I posted a link to were new images, published just yesterday."

Yes, however I saw them before you did and also saw the rest of the same photo set in which the same soldiers, after having been removed from the affray then had their wounds treated.

Carol has posted these same photos already in this thread.

If you ask her nicely she may redirect you to the source wher these photos can be viewed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:30 PM

"I suggest you made this up yourself"
The artical appeared as a comment column in the Irish Times around last Wednesday - I may well have misread it but I certainly didn't make it up - I've never seen the point of reducing arguments to that level; and certainly not quoting your source when doing so.
If I am mistaken I apologise unreservedly.
My point on the Israelis refusing to be part of an independant investigation into this or any other incident they have been involved in - if they have nothing to hide, why not?
"Yep, them Turks is just a bunch of peace-loving sweethearts..."
I am quite aware of the Turkish human rights record; I reckon you couldn't squeeze a credit card between their and that of the Israeli's - a matching pair, I'd say. I am also aware that up to now they have been one of Israel's few supporters, and anything they say has to be viewed in that light. I can't recall Turkey coming out in suport of humanitarian aid lately.
"Gaza flotilla"
Or "Israili piracy" maybe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:43 PM

The flotilla was made up of many more nationalities than just turks.

Though of course it is highly reasonable to say that if the turks have a bad human rights record then its fine for the IDF to murder people.

As for the evidence of the IDF firing first, go back and watch the videos and read the posts again.

Testimony from the ships company says that they were subject to covering fire before the troops landed.

This is corroborated by the live news reports in which the anchors are reporting injured passengers, while at the same time speculating that troops may be about to be deployed from the visible helicopters above.

Troops are then seem abseiling down and the anchor confirms that they have started to board.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:48 PM

"Isn't it awful what happened to Helen Thomas?"

I don't know this lady? But I did quickly do a YouTube search for the comment she made.. Yes, it was a strongly phrased opinion, but what I found most telling was the amount of YouTube versions which misquoted her as saying simply:
"The Jews should go back to Germany"
rather than what she actually said which was:
"Israel [should] get out of Palestine".

In response to a further question about where "they" (interesting that the interviewer shifted so immediately and seamlessly in his questioning from (the state of) "Israel" to "they" (ie: Jewish people) - this echoes some of the points raised here regarding the common conflation of all Jewish *people* with the *state* of Israel and vice versa) should leave Palestine for and return to, she replied "Poland and Germany and America and everywhere else" [that they had relocated to Palestine from]. A controversial opinion yes, but not simply a brute "The Jews should go back to Germany", as it has been characterised.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM

So when the Klan says that Blacks should go back to Africa, you'll not complain???

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM

And of course you agree that all those Mexicans should be packed up and sent South.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM

Well of course "the Blacks" were err like slaves forced there in the first place against their will as err slaves to the whites. And the Mexicans are like descended from the real Americans so it's their land in the first place (except the whites decided to carve it up when they stole it).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:04 PM

Or something..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM

PS I didn't actually say I agreed with her comment, I observed how she had been misquoted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:10 PM

Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

"Mexicans are like descended from the real Americans so it's their land in the first place "


You mean like the Jews, that were driven out of ancient Israel, moved through Spain, England, Germany, and Poland, and then returned to Israel?


They are as much descended from the "Real Israelis" as the Mexicans are of the indians who lived here before the Europeans- though they drove out earlier tribes.

Just askk the Terra del Fuagans ( pardon spelling), or the tribes that used to be where the later tribes settled.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM

"They are as much descended from the "Real Israelis" as the Mexicans"

Come off it man, that's sheer tosh! And I'm like an ancient Gaelic Druid because I have a bit of Irish in me - think I'll seize back Free Derry (just let me get my DNA tests finished up, must be sure about my rightful heritage first of course)! Mexicans never relocated anyplace else, America is their homeland and always has been.
But Like Rig say's that's another story for another day...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM

Hang on a sec ...

Can I juat clarify ...

... is this question of Helen Thomas relevant to this thread?

Does it justify the IDF's behaviour on the Mavi Marmara?

... just wondering as it appears to have been jumped on with some zeal - presumably either as a distraction from the point or just becausde it is something that BB and Bobad can actually say something about.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM

"Mexicans never relocated anyplace else, America is their homeland and always has been. "


Whatever you want to think.


But I don't have to agree with yu.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:23 PM

I am waiting to hear why Israel should not return to the last borders taht Arab nations agreed to- in 1923 when the Arab Palestinian Homeland of TransJordan took 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory away from the Jewish Homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

"Whatever you want to think."

Where do Mexicans come from?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:37 PM

There are already two current threads that discuss the right (or lack thereof) of Mexicans moving, by the millions, into somebody else's country.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

I can imagine that that might be well acceptable enough to Palestinians, provided that the deal included a right of return to their homes for the exiles and refugees. It would of course mean an abandonment of the notion of a permanent Jewish majority in the state, whatever it was called.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Mexico?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Oh joy

Does this mean we're going to argue what genetically is a true Mexican, like you guys did about what is a true Jew?

Lunacy.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM

Well we certainly seem to have moved on from the Flotilla debate ...

another red herring perhaps to avoid the point.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

...from the website of Rabbi Nesenoff who did the interview with Helen Thomas:

"From 1517 to 1917 Turkey controlled the areas we know as Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Israel. During World War I Turkey supported Germany. When Germany lost the war, Lebanon and Syria was assigned to France... and the area we know as Jordan and Israel was mandated to Great Britain.

The Jews of numerous Arab countries had already begun mass immigration into that area in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria. This Jewish dangerous and painstaking effort to turn uninhabitable marsh and malaria and mire into livable property was actually becoming successful. The Jewish revitalization of the land was paying off and then and only then attracted a large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions than the Arab countries they were living in.

In 1923, the British divided this area and gave 75% of the land to the Arabs and 25% to the Jews. The Arabs launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jews in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936 to 1939 'Arab Revolt.' The British at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became painfully clear to the Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.

The Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs, thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun, led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the problem over to the United Nations.

The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% that the Jews were living in, into a Jewish State and a second Palestinian State. The Jews accepted the UN plan. The Arab Palestinians rejected it. The Arabs still wanted ALL of the land both east AND west of the Jordan River.

On May 14, 1948 the Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became 'Israelis.' On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared 'ISRAEL' were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arabs who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish soldiers or Jewish thugs…. But because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arabs are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight.

The remaining 30% either saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or they were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war.

When the, nineteen month war, ended, Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became today's Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of 'Palestinian Arab refugees.'

In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of that area, and it's called Jordan, or in reality, their ARAB Palestinian state! But that was still not 100% and thus the conflict between Arab and Jew for 'Palestine' continues through wars and continuous Arab terrorist attacks upon Israeli citizens.

This is not about the Holocaust or the 1940s. This is not about Kings Saul, David or Solomon. This is not about throwing Arabs and their loved one's out of their homes. This is not about ancient times.

This is about the creation of a modern country in modern times in a legitimate manner. This is about the blossoming of a fruit that was planted in swamps and marshes and malaria.

This isn't about 70 BCE or 70 AD. This is about 1517, 1880, 1917, 1923, 1936,1939, 1947, and 1948."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM

good one pdq.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM

"This is not about throwing Arabs and their loved one's out of their homes."   But that is precisely what happened, and continues to happen.
..........................

Here is a piece worth reading, from Haaretz last week - "In its hour of need, Israel was let down by Diaspora":

"...If only we had some real friends, friends we could trust implicitly, who could point out the error of our ways. This could be the shining moment of the Jewish Diaspora. They love us, but they also see things from another perspective. We need a strong, unified voice from the Jewish leadership in the United States and Europe telling Israelis enough is enough, you are hurtling down the slippery slope of pariahdom and causing untold damage to yourselves and us. Lift your heads above the ramparts and see that the world has moved on."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:56 PM

"see that the world has moved on"

have we??

We seem to be digging up all the muck from history to argue and fight about.

All sides are guilty of this.

The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM

"The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace."

Right on biLL!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM

"... is this question of Helen Thomas relevant to this thread?"

I would think that it is in that the view she espouses, that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread. This idea is offensive to many people and is considered to be antisemitic as well.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:20 PM

"the view ... that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread."

Can you state who shares this view and can you provide a quote, link or any other evidence to support your accusation?

Without any such clarification and corroboration, your comment stands as a barefaced lie.

Are you a Liar Bobad or can you support your statement as requested?

Its a black and white situation.

I await your answer with curiosity.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM

The very title of this thread bears out Bobad's point. This was certainly a tragedy, but it was NO Israeli atrocity. Pretty much the reverse if you consider the planning to force a confrontation on the Turkish ship by Turkish extremists.

There have been comments to the effect that the Jewish state should be ended, there has been considerable digital ink spilled in a downright weird argument that the Jews in Israel are not racially Jews but they are committing genocide on the millions of Palestinians (who have gone on being Palestinian all this time). There has also been an implication that Jews might be more justified if they were willing to die off in larger numbers during the recent conflicts.

The crux of the matter is a genocidal intent to deny Jews their Palestinian rights and Palestinian origins. (The whiff of Juden Raus is rich through this thread because it seeks to deny Jews their time and place without allowing them any other time or place. Without the extremists who can't stomach synagogues (and churches) along with mosques in the Middle East, the many wars of the young State Of Israel would have been not so much.

Bobad's remarks are well taken.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM

Well said Robo, the thread absolutely reeks of that sentiment in spite of Lox's challenge to show someone using those exact words. That tactic is old.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM

""the view ... that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread."

I share this view with bobad.

I am actually somewhat shocked and disturbed (in fact very disturbed) on some of the posts in this thread. I fear they are more than just exaggerated emotions, but true calculated sentiments bubbling to the surface.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM

Where are the cries against the genocide of Kurds in Turkey?

http://www.kurdmedia.com/article.aspx?id=13491

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM

So once more the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the plight of the people has been obfuscated by false fabricated charges of anti Semitism and self-hating Jews - for shame!

Well you can defriend me on Facebook and slander me on mudcat but there are too many voices raised in protest to be silenced

I stand proudly by everything I have said and defy anyone to find any trace of racism of any kind in my posts

I financially supported the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee back in the 60s
I was an active member of the anti -Apartheid movement in the UK
I have stood up and been counted (and physically threatened) at protests against the BNP and their equal hatred of Jews and Muslims in the last decade
I am a member of an organization seeking to bring together Jewish and Palestinian youth in cultural activities

As Kurt Cobain said
"I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not."

So slander me as an anti-semite here, defriend me on Facebook but you will not drown the voices demanding compassion and justice this time!

Goodnight and may your god forgive you

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM

Recent DNA studies shown that the closest relatives the Jews have are the Kurds and the Armenians.

For the government of Turkey to get involved in genocide against the Jews, well, that just looks like part of a very long tradition.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM

That tactic is old.

The tactic of pointing out nobody actually said that and therefore you are lying? Yes that is a very old tactic. Goes back as far as logic. And calling it a "tactic" doesn't mean what he said isn't true. You're a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM

I guess i am becoming a anti semetic.I really think so by all the definitions i#v come across on this thred.Who dictates that judgement .Lox
Ignorent yes i am as my spelling will attest to. I have this rage inside that wants to stop this sensless killing .As a relgion well thats your trip.But when you say Israel is a Jewish State then it is a Jewish problem is it not.I don#t think i hate Jews but i am at the point of trying to understand what the heck is going on and the more i invesigate what or why all this is taking place ,it ends up with the word jew in it.Now if i was to boycott Israel products and services,what do they have other than oranges.And when i look at their beautiful orange groves by google earth i see they are the only green landscape in the middle east.Why,because they diverted water from the palistine land,not muslum but palastanie land.God i wish i could work the spell check.,,If they are such a powerful State where do they get the money. The indians have as much right to have their land back .No religion should pretend to own land and continue to brain wash their kids in beliving that. The bible i quote from a Jewish Friend and yes i still have a few jewish friends was bad journalism.So i guess i am anti semetic , i am anti war also. And it is the ignorant and uneducated like myself that join your armies but not create them.To fight and be killed for these rediclous ideals,for the soilder is young brainwashed and needs a job or meal which govt does not provide in trainings or education. I really think i am becoming antisemetic .What next..Rename the animals Adam.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM

mousey, so is name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:54 PM

If the shoe fits.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM

In case you are wondering where I stand in all of this ... I stated it in an earlier post, and I'll restate.

"The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace."

Then, and only then can humanity, and peace move forward.

When Israelis and Palestinians can sit across from one another and not see a Jew or not see an Arab. then this insane issue will be resolved.

Anger, and revenge, fear, mistrust will take us nowhere. It only fuels the flames of violence.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:09 PM

biLL, I agree with you 100% and I think humanity is evolving in that direction but we won't see it in our lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:14 PM

It certainly won't be in our lifetime bobad. Sad to say.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:29 PM

"Ahmed Luqman was shot twice during the raid and lost so much blood he nearly died. His condition meant he was one of the last activists deported from Israel.

He is now in an Istanbul hospital, from where he gave an interview to the ABC.

Mr Luqman said he was on the back deck of the flotilla flagship the Mavi Marmara, running to get inside, when he saw a laser sight settle on his leg.

Then he was down.

'I obviously knew that I'd been shot when I could see a bullet on the floor and a puddle of blood,' he said.

'Blood just pissing out of my leg, from two holes. You put two and two together, and it looks like you've been shot.'

The first bullet tore through his leg, partially severing his femoral artery. Another shot hit near his knee.

Israel says its troops were justified in opening fire after being attacked by a small band of violent activists, but Mr Luqman says that is simply fiction.

'None of us know anything about fighting and none of us intended to fight. [We're] peaceful people,' he said.

He denied any of the activists were looking for a confrontation and said some simply responded defensively when the Israelis opened fire.

'Me for one, I'm not part of that. I was just trying to get into the cabin and [was] just shot, like most of the other people who were just shot for nothing,' he said.

As bad as the assault was, the aftermath, says Mr Luqman, was worse.

'I've just been left there to lay down on the ground and just friggin' bleed, and I can't believe it,' he said.

Many of the soldiers that came up, picked up my passport because it was a different colour, looked at it, chucked it on the ground next to me and said, 'Ah, you're Australian'.'

Mr Luqman says Israeli soldiers refused him any sort of medical attention.

'They made me walk, without a stretcher, and climb all the stairs on my own without any assistance, and I passed out like three or four times just getting up the stairs on my own,' he said.

Mr Luqman's wife Jerry was with him. The nursing student helped keep him alive as his blood drained out.

Later, as other activists were deported, she chose to remain in detention in Israel to stay with her husband. She says the harsh treatment did not end on the ship.

'Their treatment of us was just completely unacceptable. I've never met anyone whose heart has become so hard and so black in my life,' she said."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/07/2919698.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:48 PM

I don't have time right now to read through all of the posts that have appeared since my last post, but I did see a couple. I don't know if this has already been answered, but just in case...

The proof that the Israelis opened fire first is in the video I posted earlier, which is from the live feed that was coming from the ship as the attack was in progress (which I was actually watching at the time, and I saw all of what we see in the video while it was happening), in which we seen and hear a correspondent reporting the fact that there are already wounded people on board the ship before we see the helicopters appear and then let down the ropes. A few minutes after he reports the wounded people, we see the helicopter appear and lower down a rope on which the Israelis absail down to the ship.

The report of wounded people prior to any of the Israelis landing on the ship is proof that the Israelis opened fire first.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:52 PM

When Israelis and Palestinians can sit across from one another and not see a Jew or not see an Arab. then this insane issue will be resolved.

I would put it differently. When the Palestinians can sit across a table from an Israeli and not see an oppressor, what is when this insane issue will be resolved.

Palestinians have no problem with Jews. They are very welcoming to Jews who come among them as equals. The people they have a problem with are those who come among them in order to subjugate them and clear them from the land. We know this because there are many Jews among them already, as equals, and the Palestinians call these Jews their cousins and hold them in very high regard.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:10 AM

For the third time, here's the video with the proof that it was the Israelis who opened fire first, for those who couldn't be arsed to watch it the first two times it was posted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g


Once again, in this video, which is from the live feed, which I and many other people watched in its entirety while this was going down, we can see an English speaking reporter (and several Turkish and an Arab) reporting the fact that people on the ship have been wounded. A few minutes later, they report the arrival of a helicopter, and we can see the helicopter come into view and let down a rope. Then we see the Israelis leave the helicopter and absail down the rope. After that, they report the presence of a second helicopter.

Passengers were wounded before any Israelis were even aboard the ship. So they can't possibly have been acting in self-defense. And the witnesses say that the Israelis opened fire first. The video evidence shows that it was the Israelis who opened fire first. The passenger testimony is that the Israelis opened fire first. The wounds to the back suggest execution style killings, or killings of people who were trying to get away. Many people who were watching the live feed say that the Israelis attacked first. All of the evidence shows that it was the Israelis who were the attackers, and the people on the ship who were the defenders.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:13 AM

I should rephrase this...


Passengers were wounded before any Israelis were even aboard the ship. So the Israelis can't possibly have been acting in self-defense.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:41 AM

It wisnae me Mr, a big boy done it an' ran awa!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM

They say people have been wounded.
We see no evidence.
They report "some kind of hemispheres" hitting the ship.
Not firing. Not grenades.
I suggest the boats were trying to get lines aboard.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM

""{I read several accounts of the autopsy reports and no person died of a single bullet to the back, or back of the head, execution style, as some claim. At least one person had a rear-entry wound, but had four more front-entry ones.}""

Re-read Emma B's post 07 Jun 10 11:58 AM.

That quotes a number of sources which give the lie to your assertion.

Besides which, it is immaterial how, exactly, they were killed. The relevant point is that they were murdered during the commission of an act of piracy on the high seas, a crime under international law no matter what excuse is offered.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM

""There have been comments to the effect that the Jewish state should be ended, there has been considerable digital ink spilled in a downright weird argument that the Jews in Israel are not racially Jews but they are committing genocide on the millions of Palestinians (who have gone on being Palestinian all this time). There has also been an implication that Jews might be more justified if they were willing to die off in larger numbers during the recent conflicts.

The crux of the matter is a genocidal intent to deny Jews their Palestinian rights and Palestinian origins. (The whiff of Juden Raus is rich through this thread because it seeks to deny Jews their time and place without allowing them any other time or place. Without the extremists who can't stomach synagogues (and churches) along with mosques in the Middle East, the many wars of the young State Of Israel would have been not so much.""

EGREGIOUS RUBBISH!

Before entering a debate, it is useful to consider the terms which relate to what you are discussing.

There is NO Jewish state. The state is Israel, and a proportion of its population follow the Jewish faith.


As long as those widely different terms are presented as synonymous, this discussion cannot reach any viable conclusions.

Look at the origins of the Jewish inhabitants of Israel.

They are German Jews, Polish Jews, Romanian Jews, Hungarian Jews, etc. etc.

The common factors are 1). Their faith is Judaism, and 2). They have taken Israeli Nationality by choice.

There is no Jewish race, as such.

Back on track, could somebody please explain how any of these sidetracking points have any bearing on Israels government sponsored piracy and murder?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM

BTW, 700......and 701

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:59 AM

"The relevant point is that they were murdered during the commission of an act of piracy on the high seas, a crime under international law no matter what excuse is offered".........

..... and while bringing much needed aid to rebuild basic structures of hospitals and schools, provided mobility and medicines for the injured etc banned from import by the Israeli government.


"Israel's Gaza blockade targets Hamas while citizens suffer"

'Israel said the blockade was intended to hold Hamas – which it views as a terrorist group – "responsible and accountable" for rocket attacks on Israeli territory.

It is also intended to constrain Hamas's ability to rule in Gaza.

The blockade, preventing all exports from Gaza and confining imports to a limited supply of humanitarian goods, has failed to bring down Hamas but has heaped misery on Gaza's 1.5 million residents.

The UN humanitarian co-ordinator said last week that the formal economy in Gaza has "collapsed" and 60% of households were short of food.
According to UN statistics, around 70% of Gazans live on less than $1 a day, 75% rely on food aid and 60% have no daily access to water.

The effect of the blockade was felt even more acutely in the aftermath of the invasion of the strip by Israeli forces in the winter of 2008-9, as materials needed for reconstruction were delayed or banned from entering Gaza.

A UN factfinding mission described the blockade as "collective punishment". .

From a simple straightforward report in The Guardian on 31 May 2010


If you really care for and want to bring about peace and reconciliation and diminish the causes of revenge and resentment then please call for the end to this blockade condemned as illegal and immoral by voices of protest throughout the world and inside Israel itself.

In the name of sanity how can the ban on childrens toys coriander and sage constitute a security risk to a country armed with nuclear devices?
Did shoes and clothing constitute offensive weaponry for 2.5 years before having their status as a security threat recently removed?

The ban is perpetuating a situation in which over 90% of industrial establishments in Gaza are closed or are operating at less than 10% of capacity.
Does the fact that Israel prevents the entry of margarine in large containers designed for the production of foodstuffs in Gaza, while it allows the entry of margarine in small packages (made in Israel) promote the economy in Gaza?

Which ever way you look at this it is -

'Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM

Some American Jewish people speak out about their 'jewish values'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM

There are many web articles alleging bias (on many topics) in the Guardian, This is just one example:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100017075/the-guardian-may-not-be-anti-semitic-but-it-is-biased-and-hypocritical/

There was an earlier allegation that a Canadian publication chain (currently owned by a rich Jewish family, but up for sale) is biased. I asked for the sources. A poster made reference to such allegations as "the American Educational Trust, (publishes The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs) as the proof. A Google check of this organization and publication shows a large number of claims of bias, and alleges links by some of it's members to to sketchy causes and other organizations....that seriously questions whether these two are themselves "unbiased source of information" on bias in other publications.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM

Sorry, but the Telegraph is in no position to accuse the Guardian of bias. The Guardian prints pieces from many sources, and many political positions. Any one piece may show bias, and the paper has a particular political position, but the Telegraph has as well, and less of a custom of informing its readers of opposing views. When a source accuses the Guardian of bias, look very carefully at it. The Guardian is one of very, very few papers in the UK which is not determinedly right-wing or in the grip of owners with personal axes to grind.

Meanwhile, here is a link to Henning Mankell's account of the events on the high seas and their aftermath.

Henning Mankell on the flotilla

Our intelligent members will be able to take account of any way in which this differs from their own bias.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:40 AM

Ed. of course the media are writing from a particular bias - however some are much more upfront about this than others

Certainly The Guardian has never disguised its political allegiance in supporting 'progressive' policies in the UK and the Telegraph has traditionally been referred to as the 'Tory graph'

I believe I was the poster who drew attention to the unabashedly pro Israeli policy of the CanWest empire because an item from that news source was presented as an objective statement of factual news reporting

I also plead 'guilty' of presenting another opposing perspective as I believe people are frequently fed a single political outlook and presentation of international situations by the prevailing media of their country and I have an endangered 'liberal' belief in hearing both sides and making your own judgement


I love the first line of the opening paragraph from the Torygraph however

"Having cheap allegations of racism thrown at you in order to close down the debate can be very damaging."

Kinda sums up a lot of the calculated use of fabricated charges of anti Semitism against posters on this thread to discredit and divert from the reality of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza

(p.s. Ed West also has some strong views on abortion and immigration of Islamic workers into Europe) which I personally disagree with as well.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:41 AM

Sorry about the link - it isn't to Mankell's own pice but an interview with him. I'll chase up his own piece.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:43 AM

Here's an audio version.

Mankell audio

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM

I do not know the legal position, but this person thinks he does.
1. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea.

2. Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.

3. A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral states.

4. The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.

5. In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime blockade is in effect.

6. Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification has been granted, as above.

7. Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and enemy vessels.

8. A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.

9. Here we should note that the protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law.

10. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel's intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.
http://www.crethiplethi.com/the-gaza-flotilla-and-the-legal-maritime-blockade-of-gaza/israel/2010/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM

People keep on asserting that the blockade on Gaza was put in place because of rocket attacks on Israel. That is not true. It was imposed in 2007 when Hamas, having won democratic elections, took over control of Gaza after a conflict with Al Fatah, which, having lost the election, refused to relinquish power. Al Fatah held on to power in the West Bank, with backing from Israel, the USA and the EU and others.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:48 AM

As noted, that was merely one example....(of course). Those seeking a broad perspective to frame opinions openly consider many sources and perspectives. Others, even those that may be intelligant in many other aspects of life, refer to limited and biased sources to reinforce their current opinions (not to be confused with facts). A useful tool to recognise this type of person is the tactic of attacking (attempting to silence or discredit) those who see an issue differently, those open to debate, and those who are not limited to narrow thinking or opinion on any issue.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:51 AM

"Of course the media are writing from a particular bias - however some are much more upfront about this than others"

If so, what about the bias of the American Educational Trust, and The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:53 AM

Here's Mankell's piece, at last.

Mankell's flotilla diary

And that law suggests it is made up by those with the guns to justify anything they do. Such as sinking the Rainbow Warrior, torpedoing South Korean ships, sabotaging ships on their way to Cyprus, whatever. If it has any validity, surely it was devised to deal with gun running and suchlike aggressive behaviour, not prefabs, coriander and butter.

If the law is on the side of the Israelis in this, then Mr Bumble was right. It needs reworking for the modern world. It can't be left to just one state to declare that it applies in any particular case.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:54 AM

Keith - we were talking about bias in reporting

Could I just point out for anyone that doesn't actually look at the source of your quote 'justifying' the attack on the flotilla it is on the same page as an appeal for money

"IF YOU WANT TO SUPPORT OUR WORK, PLEASE CONSIDER MAKING A DONATION.

YOUR DONATION WILL ALSO HELP US IN OUR ABILITY TO SUPPORT A PRO-ISRAEL LOBBY"

well no doubt about any bias there?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:09 AM

Ed, as well as examining some of the reports presented here I have, wherever possible provided the sources of my quotes and some information about the political stance and background of the contribtors and what organization they may represent

When I quoted from The American Educational Trust I also provided the information that it was
'a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, D.C. by retired U.S. foreign service officers' and
'best known for publishing the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs ("The Washington Report")

Without going back over many posts, some of which are nothing less than personal attacks of anti semitism on some members, I think I might also have provided some additional summarized information from Wiki that -

'AET's founders included Edward Firth Henderson, the AET's first chairman, and a former British Ambassador to Qatar; Andrew Killgore, AET's first president, who was U.S. Ambassador to when he retired from theUnited States Foreign Service in 1980; and Richard Curtiss, AET's first executive director, who was chief inspector of the U.S. Information Agency when he retired from the U.S. Foreign Service in 1980.'

or that

'AET's Foreign Policy Committee has included former U.S. ambassadors, government officials, and members of the United States Congress, including the late Democratic Senator J. William Fulbright, and Republican Senator Charles Percy, both former chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and members of its Board of Directors and advisory committees "receive no fees for their services."'

In this way you are at liberty to compare their perspective with that of the CanWest article and make your own judgement about which is likely to be most objective which was my intention.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:15 AM

Emma, I am sure you are right that the info is from a pro Israel site.
I posted it because it sounded authoratative on international law on blockades.
I am no expert myself.
Are you saying that it is factually incorrect?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:59 AM

Keith, I'm saying it is how Israel interprets the law

According to a legally recognised document called the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea" under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

One view is that "On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal,"

Under the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea a coastal state has a "territorial sea" of 12 nautical miles from the coast over which it is sovereign.
Ships of other states are allowed "innocent passage" through such waters.

There is a further 12 nautical mile zone called the "contiguous zone" over which a state may take action to protect itself or its laws.

HOWEVER even the same lawyers that argue the sea blockade can be legally justified also say

"strictly beyond the 12 nautical miles limit the seas are the "high seas" or international waters"

The Israeli navy said on Monday the Gaza bound flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel.
The Turkish captain of one of the vessels told an Istanbul news conference after returning home from Israeli detention they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters.

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel COULD apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, some legal experts argue.

HOWEVER, "If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College


It is reported today that

"The Israeli military will conduct its own investigation of the May 31 commando raid on a flotilla of ships trying to breach its blockade of the Gaza Strip, which left nine pro-Palestinian activists from Turkey dead."

Netanyahu said he hasn't agreed to a proposal by United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon for an international investigation of the incident.
Israel refused to participate in a UN report on the 2008 Gaza war

Benny Begin, a minister without portfolio, said on Israel Radio
"The questions that need to be examined are whether the naval blockade was imposed according to international law, and was the way it was enforced on May 31 according to that law in all its interpretations,"

HOWEVER, as can be seen from the uncompromising statement from the Israel Ministry of foreign Affairs posted 08 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM it has already been stated by Israel that the blockade and therefore any attack is absolutely justified in legal terms making an internal military investigation the whitewash many people fear, from previous such internal enquiries, it will be

There are many opinions about the legality of the blockade and the assault on a ship in International waters

Israel continues to dismiss all these interpretations as the products of

'numerous NGOs and "human rights groups" have issued harsh and one-sided condemnations of Israel's actions.
Many of these statements have been couched in the terminology of international law…….. these claims are legally incorrect or dubious.

They represent the continued exploitation of international law for political ends."

Yeah! Everyone's doing it - sigh

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM

Thanks Emma.
It seems to be a question of interpretation and not a clear cut case of legal or illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:24 AM

Keith, considering the fact that all of the testimonies of the flotilla members who were in visual range say the same thing - that the government of Israel opened fire first, the fact that in what is quite clearly a very fearful and worried state, the correspondents report wounded people, and the fact that we can prove that everything else Israel has said about what happened is a lie, there is no credible evidence that the Israelis were acting in self-defence, and all of the evidence shows that they attacked first.

And also the fact that the government of Israel won't release all of the footage and still shots that the people on the flotilla took of the events, and in fact, they dumped a lot of it overboard. If Israel had nothing to hide, it wouldn't have any problem with letting people see that material. That, alone, is proof enough of the Israelis guilt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM

Keith, please show me the specific wording in international maritime law that applies to this situation and that would make the blockade on Gaza legal.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:32 AM

"It seems to be a question of interpretation and not a clear cut case of legal or illegal."


And therein lies the problem Keith

Opinio Juris is a forum for informed discussion and lively debate about international law and international relations. It was founded by Chris Borgen, a law professor at St. John's University Law School, who started the site with Peggy McGuinness of the University of Missouri Law School and Julian Ku of Hofstra Law School

Here Prof Kevin Jon Heller is currently a Senior Lecturer at Melbourne Law School admits he is confused



Israel's defense of the blockade thus appears to create a serious dilemma for it. Insofar as Israel insists that it is not currently occupying Gaza, it cannot plausibly claim that it is involved in an international armed conflict (IAC),
with Hamas.
And if it is not currently involved in an IAC with Hamas, it is difficult to see how it can legally justify the blockade of Gaza.
Its blockade of Gaza, therefore, seems to depend on its willingness to concede that it is occupying Gaza and is thus in an IAC with Hamas.
But Israel does not want to do that, because it would then be bound by the very restrictive rules of belligerent occupation in the Fourth Geneva Convention **


There is, however, another possibility: that Israel's blockade of Gaza is not a "belligerent blockade" at all, but is instead something akin to a "pacific blockade," defined by the Dictionary of International Law as "a form of coercive measure short of war, whereby a state (or group of states) bars access to the coast of a state or part of it in order to prevent entry and exit of ships of the state under blockade."
I say "akin to" a pacific blockade, because — as the definition indicates — such blockades assume that the blockaded entity is a state, not a non-state actor.

Even if Israel's blockade of Gaza would analogically qualify as a pacific blockade, however, it would still be of questionable legality: pacific blockades are only legal with the approval of the Security Council, according to the Dictionary of International Law, and the Security Council has never approved the blockade of Gaza"

full article

** it is claimed by many - including the Government of Canada that -

"This construction (the 'seraration barrier')is contrary to international law under the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Canada not only opposes Israel's construction of a barrier extending into the occupied territories, but also expropriations and the demolition of houses and economic infrastructure carried out for this purpose."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:11 AM

Carol, from Emma's post "Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel COULD apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, some legal experts argue"

Most or all of those on board were intensely partisan against the Israelis. They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets? They were witness to terrifying violence. I do not find their testimony reliable.

Remember that Israelis have stopped ships on many previous occasions, and stopped other vessels that night.
All without violence.
It is possible to abseil with a weapon in hand. I suspect that the soldiers were not expecting a fight and sought not to appear provacative, otherwise I simply can not believe that Israeli commandos could be so readily overcome by people armed only with clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:34 AM

No, the problem is that Israel, very much like the U.S. from wch it learned the stance, considers itself generally "EXEMPT" from the rules that govern the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM

"No, the problem is that Israel, very much like the U.S. from wch it learned the stance, considers itself generally "EXEMPT" from the rules that govern the rest of the world. "

Unlike it's law abiding neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM

"They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets?"

Of course they were expecting trouble Keith - Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, said the country was prepared to stop the flotilla with its cargo of humanitarian aid "AT ANY COST."

A previous incident in December 2008 when a similar attempt to reach Gaza by sea ended in the activists' boat being rammed by the Israeli navy
The passengers on board the flotilla were wearing life jackets - not flak jackets!!

"I suspect that the soldiers were not expecting a fight and sought not to appear provacative, otherwise I simply can not believe that Israeli commandos could be so readily overcome by people armed only with clubs."

I believe they were possibly not expecting a 'fight' too, but dropping from the sky at 4 am in the morning masked and apparently armed to the teeth - could you tell a paint gun from a lethal rifle under those conditions? - the passengers were quite obviously convinced they were under lethal attack as in fact they were when the commandos opened fire with their pistols at close range at their attackers, one of whom, Cevdet Kýlýçlar who was shot in the head was armed solely with his camera

As they were dropped one by one I suppose they were heavily outnumbered by the passengers

Despite such overwhelming odds however none of the Commandoes were killed despite the photos of the 'weapons' claimed to be found on board

It is alleged that the final commando to be lowered was responsible for killing at at least six of the victims and it is reported that he is in line for a medal of valour.

Is that a 'provocation'?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM

It's very curious that the Russians have chosen now to reveal that they are trying some of their soldiers for theft of cards belonging to the dead of the Polish air crash - I wonder if it is to show up the Israelis who have similarly stolen cards, cameras and so on.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

"and stopped other vessels that night.
All without violence."

Well, this was the official Hasbara spin while the passengers from the flotiila were still held in prisons in Israel

However on returning home a very different picture to the peaceful 'takeover' has developed


Activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, was among six Greeks who returned home on Tuesday.

"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," he said.

"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

Mr Gielalis said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye.

"Of course we weren't prepared for a situation of war," he said.


Aris Papadokostopoulos was aboard the Free Mediterranean, travelling behind the Mavi Marmara and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists.

"The Turkish ship [the Mavi Marmara] was in front of us... on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting," he said.

Mr Papadokostopoulos said aboard the other boats, commandos beat activists but nobody was gravely injured.

He said no-one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical and pharmaceutical aid.

"Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," he said.

- Two accounts from the BBC of the experiences of passengers on other ships

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:31 AM

An interesting opinion perspective, from The Halifax Chronicle Herald:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1186265.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:48 AM

"- Two accounts from the BBC of the experiences of passengers on other ships "

And I have seen other similar accounts from the other ships.



Well Bobad,

You have made a blanket acccusation against those who disagree with you on here that they believe Jews should leave Palestine.

You refuse to provide examples.

That is because there are none.

Which makes your accusation a lie.


In fact, upon analysis, you haven't bothered to back up any of your assertions with evidence.

In addition, you appeart to have ignored the available evidence.


That makes your other posts meaningless.


The fact yhe you consider a request for evidence to be a "tactic" is evidence that your point of view is a fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM

"An interesting opinion perspective, from The Halifax Chronicle Herald:"

Yes - an nteresting comparison of the flotilla, carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, and the Russian Navy, carrying nuclear missiles to cuba at the height of the cold war.

That's almost as absurd as Golda Meyers friend Gerald Kaufman comparing the IDF to Nazi soldiers.

And of course we coudn't possibly countenance such gross exaggeration could we.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM

Keith, I want to see the language that defines who can blockade whom. The language I've seen so far says that a country can prevent foreign countries from bringing anything to the shores of the country that is enforcing the blockade. I have not yet seen any other definitions of who can conduct blockades and who can be blockaded.

There are some questions that arise with the language I have seen so far. The first, of course, is this - is Gaza a foreign country from Israel? If so, does that mean that Gaza is a country that is independent from Israel? The second is, if this is the case, then under the language I used above, Israel cannot be said to be preventing anything from reaching its own shores if it blockades Gazan waters.

I want to see the specific language as it appears in international maritime law, and how this language specifically applies in relation to both Israel and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM

"They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets?"

They knew from experience that Israel could attack in such a way that they might need the life jackets. Prior ships had been rammed by Israeli war ships. The members of the flotilla themselves said they anticipated the possibility that they might be sunk. But none of them expected Israeli helicopters to fire on sleeping passengers, which many of the passengers report did happen.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM

Most or all of those on board were intensely partisan against the Israelis. They were also clearly expecting trouble, or why the life jackets? They were witness to terrifying violence. I do not find their testimony reliable.

Well that's easy enough to clear up, isn't it? All Israel has to do is show all of the video and photographic evidence that they confiscated from the passengers. Right? Now I wonder why they won't do that.

And you find Israel's account credible even though they have been proven to have lied about everything else they have said about the flotilla? Why is that, Keith? Is it your own partisanship in this matter?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:55 PM

And if the passengers on the ships were so partisan that they would lie about what happened, why is it that they are the only ones who are calling for all of the video and photographic evidence to be released?   Really, don't insult our intelligence and yours with that "passengers can't be believed" nonsense. They are the ones who want everyone to see all of the evidence, while the government of Israel has done everything it possibly could to hide evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM

There is NO Jewish state. The state is Israel, and a proportion of its population follow the Jewish faith.

Sorry, Netanyahu says it's a Jewish state. He demands that Hamas recognize it as a Jewish state. You're just flat-out wrong. STBU.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:08 PM

Israel is the successor state to Mandate Palestine, established in 1921 ( along with Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and others) as the Jewish Homeland. It was a spoil of war awarded to Great Britain as a result of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

In 1923 the British took 77% of the Mandate territory and created the Arab Homeland of Transjordan, where NO JEWS were allowed to settle, since the Mandate Power ( Great Britain) did not wish to have conflicts between the Jewish and Moslim populations. The remaining 23% was to be the Jewish Homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

That's all entirely irrelevant, now, beardedbruce, since Israel as a Jewish state will not exist for very much longer. After that it will be a state of all of its citizens, and citizenship will not be determined by ethnicity or religion.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

From your lips to God's ears, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

"since Israel as a Jewish state will not exist for very much longer"

You mean that the Arabs nations will attack it AGAIN, trying to destroy it as they tried in 1948, and 1967?

Or do you mean that Iran will use it's nuclear weapons on Israel, and kill off both those pesky Jews and those annoying Palestinians? Or will they just give the WMD to Hezboallah, for them to use on all those non-existant missles that Iran sent them through Syria?

Either way, the Palestinian people will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations. I don't know why you think that a good thing- I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

No beardedbruce. It's going to happen the same way it happened in South Africa. It's going to collapse under its own weight, because Israel has it exists now is simply not sustainable. And the international civil society will not allow it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM

I disagree with your assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

State-sponsored racism is so 19th century.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM

I disagree with your assessment.

No problem. Just pull up a chair, grab yourself some popcorn, and watch what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM

What is not being acknowledged here is that Israel has become a right-wing theocracy.
The Likkud is dominated by zealots and not reasonable people. When this happens, as it could in the U.S., any attempt at a reasonable solution is thwarted.

Zionism (Zion being a biblical term) started out as a different idea. It is now synonymous
with a violent regime to oppress others who are not Zionists. It has been redefined in the way Christianity is becoming in the U.S.

Fortunately, not all Jews are Zionists. The charge of "anti-semitism" is specious.

"Operation Cast Lead" was the final straw. This is the new face of Zionism.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM

The only difference between Likud and the other parties, Stringsinger, has been that Likud has been more open about what it is doing. The other governments have been just as bad, but they've been a lot more secretive. None of them have ever had any interest in finding a resolution to the problem. Labor governments have built as many settlements and started as many wars as Likud governments have. And it's not the new face of Zionism, either. The early Zionist leaders were quite open about their agenda to ethnically cleanse all of the Palestinians from Palestine. This has been the plan all along.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

I don't want to quarrel with CarolC, but I can't help making a couple of comments on what she writes. She accuses Keith A of Hertford of partisanship. An Italian saying: il bue dice cornuto all'asino (the ox calls "cornuto" the donkey, "cornuto" means both horned animal and cuckold). I mean, she is the best in partisanship this thread has to offer. Previously, she replied to me saying I had swallowed the propaganda: it is funny to receive this remark from a person that believes that a single-state solution ruled by Hamas would be a democracy and a safe place where to live for the Israeli people: it would not be safe even for Fatah! In my opinion, the Israeli-Palestinian situation is a tragedy, with rights and wrongs mixed together. You can't support a single part. Especially we who don't live there, we should not be even more extreme than them who have suffered victims, losses and pains, but try to make a balanced solution become possible. I can't see an alternative to a two-states solution, although I'm aware it 's getting more difficult to build every day that passes. Dear CarolC, partisanship from us is not suitable. The Italian group on the flotilla was formed by anti-Semite people, linked to so-called historians that pretend the Holocaust never happened: we don't need that political mob.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM

"Well Bobad,

You have made a blanket acccusation against those who disagree with you on here that they believe Jews should leave Palestine."

I've seen that game played around here too many times to get suckered into it.

Let's try this one:

Well Lox,

Show me where I said that those who disagree with me believe that Jews should leave Palestine. If you can't then I guess that makes you a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM

State-sponsored racism is so 19th century.

But its recently been experiencing a real renaissance, Mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM

In 2007 just before the celebration of Italy's Holocaust Memorial Day the Italian government approved a bill that made denying the Holocaust a crime and stiffened prison sentences for those found guilty of inciting racial hatred.
The decree, submitted by Justice Minister Clemente Mastella, received unanimous approval by the Romano Prodi cabinet..

As this crime can result in a prison sentence I think Roberto that, if you do actually possess ANY evidence for your accusations, and it is not just another Hasbara inspired piece of smear tactics, then you have a moral duty to either put up or - shut up!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:35 PM

Roberto, please show me where I said that one state in Palestine/Israel would or even should be ruled by Hamas.

And I'm not the one who started the accusations of partisanship. That would be Keith who did that. He really is in no position to be pointing fingers in that regard. And I would see no reason to point out the partisanship on this issue if people who are engaging in it wouldn't be pointing fingers at others for being partisan.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

"Show me where I said that those who disagree with me believe that Jews should leave Palestine. If you can't then I guess that makes you a liar. "

Sorry mate - this point is fundamentally flawed.

You accused "some" of this vierw and it wasn't the ones you agree with.

But you could easily clarify this one anyway by stating all those on this thread who you believe are of the opinion that Jews should leave Palestine.

You have asserted that "some" are of that view.


Who?


I can say with absolute certainty that all those you accuse of believing Jews shuld leave Palestine are in disagreement with you on this thread.


This isn't a game for me.

Only you have called it a game.

That says a lot about you and nothing about this discussion or anyone taking part.

Your slander, evasiveness and refusal to back up any point marks you out as dishonest.

Show some backbone and say who you mean and say where they have either said, implied or insinuated that Jews should leave Palestine.

If you, don't you mark yourself out not only as dishonest, but also as spineless.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM

Somewhere back up this thread, someone wrote about the genetic connection between Jews, Kurds and Armenians. That would be the Cohen Y chromosome, I seem to recall. I also seemed to recall something about the Journal of Immunology having to rip a paper out of issues on a related subject, so I went and looked it up.

The article, which showed that there were very close similarities between Palestinians and Jews, has had some argument about it, which anyone can check up on by googling "Jews Palestinians immunology paper", and so I'm not going to refer to it. It was included by a guest editor who happened to be the lead author.

Instead, that among the discussion of this withdrawn paper, reference was made to another, produced in Israel by Israeli scientists, on genetic connections between populations. The conclusion was that all Jewish groups, Sephardim, Ashkenazim, and even the Ethiopian Jews show genetic connectedness. But, buried in the work was the finding that Sephardic Jews and Palestinians show a greater genetic likeness than between either group and Ashkenazi Jews.

Which places both groups with the same ancestry, and the same link to the place of origin. (I have seen it said that the Palestinian Christians are probably the descendants of Jews who lived there in Jesus' time, and who never left after 76 AD, but who knows.)

It doesn't help either side if arguments are based on fantasy.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM

Penny S:

If the research you are talking about is true (and I'm not saying it is) it would support my argument that a good deal of the problems of the Mideast are due to the Jewish Israelis not being accepted as 'Palestinians' in their own right. Consider that Israel has a considerable Arab population and is multi-ethnic, multi-believer. The great majority of its neighbors not only are the opposite of this, they can't IMAGINE what it would be like to allow minority rights.

This is a miasma of intolerance in which the only oasis of democracy, tolerance, and freedom is constantly being set up as a fall guy in order to eliminate it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM

And, there is Helen Thomas.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-ostroy/helen-thomass-sad-new-leg_b_604332.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM

OK Lox, it's been fun but you are becoming a little too obsessed for me so I'll just say TTFY, have fun playing with yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM

OK,here is a Guardian article that some folks wont like:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/06/israel-gaza-blockade

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:12 PM

Anyone giving a course on "How to silence someone with whom you disagree"?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

No worries Bobad.

Your inability to support your slander and you're inabilty to step up and be specific is recorded clearly.

Equally your inability to refute or come clean is recorded clearly.

False accusationsn no evidence and something to hide.

If you're happy with that then so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

EdT,

Your columnist states - "The point to make against them is not that there are worse countries than Israel, which receive nothing like the same level of opprobrium – even though there are and they most certainly do not – but that Israel's critics ignore the uses of racism and forget the lessons of the 20th century."

This is true sometimes.

It is also true that Israel uses racism and seems to have ignored the big lessons of the 20th cetury too.


However, there is another important reason why many people from the centre right to the left wing in the west are very vocal about Israels actions in Gaza.

It is this: Israel is meant to be on our side.

Israel is meant to be our ally.

We in the UK and in the USA who have a problem with the way our governments treat Arabs, also have a problem with the way our friends treat Arabs.

I, as a UK citizen, am appalled that my government and its friends seem to have so littlwe regard for human life.

My team misrepresents me about as far as it is humanly possible to do so.

My team - the allies - team UK, USA, Israel ...

We, the last bastion of human rights and democracy - we judge feudal archaic and undemocratic countries the world over who aren't on our team, like China, Burma, North Korea etc etc.

We say to them "No" the way you treat your people and the territories you occupy is wrong and you must stop.

Only we can't say that.

If we say that then we are hypocrites.

Because our governments kill more people in foreign countries and inflict more human rights abuses than any of 'the other team' do.

We in the UK expect much better from our government than this.

We expect much better from our ally the USA.

And we expect much better from our ally Israel.


Team UK, USA, Israel, claims to represent me around the world.

What's more, it spends my taxes doing so - even Israel.


Well I would like to be clear that I do not support the actions of my team around the world.

I think my team is corrupt, dishonest, murderous, racist and lacking a conscience.


In response to my well founded criticism, my team opens old sensitive wounds and tells lies.


I despise my team and I hope it gets replaced.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:50 PM

I have to confess that I find the 'opinion' piece by Nick Cohen both disturbing and disturbed

The best I can say about it is that I go along entirely with the assessment and criticism of his extreme recent anti-Islamic rhetoric by Mehdi Hasan writing in the New Statesman


"Nick Cohen, formerly of this parish, has devoted his latest Observer column to the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the siege of Gaza. I can't help but respond to some of his weird and wonderful claims.

He has (since) become monomaniacally obsessed with Islamism, Islam and Muslims, and an ardent defender of the United States, the UK and Israel. He has described the British army as the "armed wing of Amnesty International" while castigating Amnesty itself for being an "evil corporation".


Perhaps Cohen should read the Israeli press before he sounds off about anti-Semitism and the Jewish state. Here are four headlines from Haaretz last week:
Ari Shavit's "Fiasco on the high seas"
Reuven Pedatzur's "A failure any way you slice it"
Yossi Sarid's "Seven idiots in the cabinet"
Gideon Levy's "Operation Mini Cast Lead"

Does Cohen expect us to believe the staff of Haaretz are Jew-haters? And is Nelson Mandela, who described Palestine as "the greatest moral issue of the age", a lazy anti-Semitic liberal as well? "

Nick Cohen's Nazi confusion

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 04:56 PM

Not only that, but we (those of us in my country, at least), are being forced to support what Israel does with our tax dollars, which makes us complicit. And on top of that, we have to fight against people, like the guy who wrote that opinion piece, who are actually supporting Israel's racism and human rights abuses. There is no other country besides the US that is guilty of as much racism and as many human rights abuses as Israel, that gets so much support in countries like the US and other countries in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:10 PM

Mr. Cohen also conveniently ignores the fact that all of Israel's neighbors, including Hamas, have said they are willing to accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders. But this characterization of his that all of Israel's neighbors want to kill Jews is a libel, and it arises from his own racism and hatred of Arabs and Muslims, and it has no basis whatever in truth.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:33 PM

Some findings from a 2008 study on coexistence in Israel from the John F. Kennedy School of Government of Harvard University

•    A great majority of both Jewish citizens (73%) and Arab citizens (94%) want Israel to be a society in which Arab and Jewish citizens have mutual respect and equal opportunities.
•    68% of Jewish citizens support teaching conversational Arabic in Jewish schools to help bring Arab and Jewish citizens together.
•    77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.
•    More than two-thirds of Jewish citizens (69%) believe contributing to coexistence is a personal responsibility; a majority (58%) of Jewish citizens also support cabinet level action.
•    Arab citizens and Jewish citizens both underestimate their communities' liking of the "other."
•    Urgent action on coexistence in Israel is desired: 66% of Jewish citizens and 84% of Arab citizens believe the Israeli government investments should begin now, and not wait until the end of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

http://content.ksg.harvard.edu/leadership/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=511&Itemid=115

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM

There you go again. Pretty much nothing in that last scribe of your is true. You mis-state the position of Hamas and you ascribe motivations to those you do not know purely as an ad-hominem attack "I disagree with them therefore they are racists, therefore what they say is wrong, therefore I don't need to spend a lot of time on logic, analysis, and reasoned argument."

Par for your course, CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM

Thank you Bobad.

That information supports my view exactly.

That the current Israeli administration rides roughshod, not only over residents of Gaza, but also ignores the views of many Israelis, including the views of many Israeli Jews.

It is also my view that the Israeli administration lies to Isrealis and non Israelis alike to justify its actions.


Your post confirms my view exactly that this issue is not about blaming ordinary Israelis, Israeli Jews or non Israeli Jews, it is about the outrageous calumny and brutality inflicted by the IDF on behalf of the Israeli administration.


This is a view shared by all those on this thread who have condemned IDF piracy in the meditteranean on 31st may, with the exception of one who has explicitly admitted anti-semitic feelings.

With the exception of that poster, there is no evidence of anti semitism in the posts of any other poster, there remain only inferences, insinuations and accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/?scp=1&sq=Lede

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

CarolC

Unfortunately, I do not trust any government from any country, west east, or elsewhere that is elected to represent the interests of its citizens...let alone to represent fairness anmd good towards humanity, let alone the interests of the majority in a country. It matters little how many times governments change, it really does not change much. So, considering history, should one really be surprised when governments do not represent your (and my) interests and spend tax dollars as they see fit...regardless of the country?

Do I have hope that the Palistine-Israel issues will ever be resolved? No...especially if the two peoples cannot trust each other and rely on the politics of others to resolve issues that only they can resolve. Peace and harmony comes down to trust, which is lacking between the two groups. When you can put asise a bias, and look at the case of either side...either can be seen as making sonme sense....but, that alone, without trust, does not advance any solution.

It is nieve to believe that involving others, (countries, religeous groups, military groups, etc) with a variety of interests (not all to benefit either peoples), to come up with a solution of how these folks can live in harmony together. Regardless of what they seem, there are many with other agendas....some of those do not put the suffering of regular folks high on the list...unfortunately, sometimes the suffering can be seen as beneficial, to promote a longer term cause.

You say that "all of Israel's neighbors, including Hamas, have said they are willing to accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders".

Maybe so, but of the two that actually matter, Hamas presents the current stumbling block, not Fatah. To be really trusted by Israel, a first step is for Hamas to change its charter (especially article 22), which is the real test to recognizing Israel's right to exist. To me, that is the real stumbling block to trust and peace.

I am sure you and your like thinking who dominate comments on this thread will disagree with this,(and most anything that does not support your fixed positions) and quite agressively so. But, you can by mere numbers and agression, force folks away from commenting and sharing perspectives (when they differ with yours, collectively) in this thread, and, then you can have it to yourselves.   But, that, and, a one sided Mudcat discussion, does little to change or get anyone closer to reolving the issues (real, perceived or denied, as such), nor advance peace and humanity in the region for all.But, you may feel in some odd way that you won some type of a battle...if so, I wish you good with that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

There you go again, Robomatic, pretending that the proof of the falsity of your own statements has not already been posted several times right here in this thread. You seem to think that you can use the Jedi mind trick and just tell us something that is false and your having told us will be enough to convince us even despite all of the hard evidence to the contrary.

Par for your course, robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

Ed T, pull up a chair, get yourself some popcorn, and watch what happens...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:16 PM

Robomatic,

Actually, Emmas article about cohen seems to support Carols view of him pretty well.

In addition, whether you trust them or not, it is true that Hamas have made the offer, twice in as many years, that Carol says they have made.

Just because you say she is making it up, doesn't make it so.

Her observations are drawn from evidence, not concocted out of feelings of loyalty.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:47 PM

Carolc<
Sometimes folks prefer if those with views do the popcorn/armchair thing in dicussions...I either participate in a meaningful way, or I contribute elsewhere....where it amtters more to all, But, I am still here.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:07 PM

Carol, I don't agree that we are witnessing the beginning of the end for the current Israeli administration.

Though Bobads stats would tend to support a view that most Arabs and jews in Israel are sick of the current status quo.

I think the current US and Israeli administrations will do their best to absorb recent events, cover them up and repackage them with the result that the current status quo will continue to drag out for an indefinite period.

I also think that the best chance for all the people of Israel and Palestine is for a continued and sustained continuation of the recent surge in large scale, coordinated, non violent action.

It is likely in the end not just to attract support from international quarters, but also to draw support away from the more extreme elements of Israeli and Palestinian politics.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM

My own take is that if they could somehow remove the religious influence from government then the will of the majority would prevail but I don't know how that can be done in a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM

Lox, your last post made alot of sense.
I fear that the route it is taking will eventually lead to a great conflict some day....that could end in the death of all the peoples who now reside there, and possibly nearby....and a scorched landscape.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM

""And that law suggests it is made up by those with the guns to justify anything they do. Such as sinking the Rainbow Warrior, torpedoing South Korean ships, sabotaging ships on their way to Cyprus, whatever. If it has any validity, surely it was devised to deal with gun running and suchlike aggressive behaviour, not prefabs, coriander and butter.""

Indeed Penny, and let's not forget using cloned passports, to gain access to a political opponent, in order to assassinate him on somebody else's territory.

And before anybody tries to claim that was a Mossad action, not supported by, or known to, the Israeli government, I have this to say.

IF the Israeli government doesn't know what Mossad is doing in its name, then it's time the government was replaced by a competent one.

I, however, do not believe for one second that Mossad operated illegally, on foreign soil, without the full knowledge, and under-the-counter support of that government.

Israel is out of control, and arguably it is that state which should be blockaded by the whole western world, before they start a war which we may have to finish.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:55 PM

Sometimes folks prefer if those with views do the popcorn/armchair thing in dicussions...I either participate in a meaningful way, or I contribute elsewhere....where it amtters more to all, But, I am still here.

That's nice, Ed. But nothing you say or do is going to change the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:04 PM

I also think that the best chance for all the people of Israel and Palestine is for a continued and sustained continuation of the recent surge in large scale, coordinated, non violent action.

This is precisely what will bring about the end of the present regime in Israel. Those who were close to the unfolding of events in South Africa during the struggle against apartheid say that the situation in Palestine/Israel is very close to where things were when the apartheid regime in South Africa was dismantled. And everything that the government of Israel does these days has the effect of speeding things up and awakening ever larger numbers of people to what is really going on. It's already snowballing. It took several years of civil society action to bring about the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa, but the end was very quick when it finally came about.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM

Would this be the "political opponent" to whom you are referring DonT?

Mahmoud Abdel Rauf al-Mabhouh (Arabic: محمود عبد الرؤوف المبحوح; February 14, 1960[1] – January 19, 2010)[2] was a senior Hamas military commander and one of the founders of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. He was involved in several actions against Israel, including the abduction and murder of two Israeli soldiers.[3][4] In recent years, Mabhouh was also alleged to have played a key role in forging secret connections between the Hamas government in Gaza and the Al-Quds Force of the Revolutionary Guards in Iran.[5]

Al-Mabhouh was killed in the five-star Al Bustan Rotana Hotel in Dubai on January 19, 2010, having arrived in the country earlier that day from Syria using one of his five passports, under the fake name of Abdul Raaouf Mohamed.[6][7] The Dubai police have voiced their suspicions that he was murdered in his hotel room, with accounts of the cause of death ranging from suffocation to electrocution. Controversy has arisen over speculation that his death may have been an Israeli government-sanctioned assassination, and allegations that the assassins used fraudulently obtained European[8] and Australian [9] passports. At the time of his death Mabhouh was wanted by the Israeli, Egyptian and Jordanian governments.[10]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:18 PM

""Sorry, Netanyahu says it's a Jewish state. He demands that Hamas recognize it as a Jewish state. You're just flat-out wrong. STBU.""

Then Who Pray are all the Arab citizens of Israel who seem to be quite numerous.

Since Judaism is a religion, it cannot possibly be a nationality.

Use your eyes, then marshal the little common sense you seem to exhibit, and find a rational explanation for the fact that the world is full of Jews of every nationality, including Israeli.

The state of Israel might well claim to be a Jewish state, but it is patently not so.

YOU ARE MISTAKEN, and the main reason is that you choose to believe the words of one of the world's most corrupt and bigotted men, Netanyahu, who would cheerfully kll every Arab and Muslim in Palestine if he thought he could get away with it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:26 PM

"That's nice, Ed. But nothing you say or do is going to change the outcome"

I suggest that't true for all those here...hopefully it's not a surprise for anyone posting their opinions....otherwise they will likely be dissapointed

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM

""Or do you mean that Iran will use it's nuclear weapons on Israel, and kill off both those pesky Jews and those annoying Palestinians? Or will they just give the WMD to Hezboallah, for them to use on all those non-existant missles that Iran sent them through Syria?

Either way, the Palestinian people will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations. I don't know why you think that a good thing- I don't.""

Iran will use it's nukes. WHAT bloody nukes? It doesn't have any, nor the means to deliver them if it should succeed in making one or two.

ISRAEL, on the other hand, has plenty, and the malevolent will to deploy them, and the Iranians know that. They're not the stupid ragheads you would wish them to be BB.

""The palestinians will suffer greatly, and possibly be destroyed by the other Arab nations.""

They won't get that far if Israel has its way. They'll be destroyed by Israel. Would that suit you better BB. Would that, in your estimation, be a better idea?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:48 PM

""This is a miasma of intolerance in which the only oasis of democracy, tolerance, and freedom is constantly being set up as a fall guy in order to eliminate it.""

If this weren't so bloody tragic, I'd be rolling on the floor, howling with laughter.

I assume that the above conglomeration of absolute garbage refers to the state of Israel?

An oasis of fascism, racism, and discriminatory constraint, would probably be a more apposite description.

Ask the unfortunate residents of Gaza which of these statements seems, to them, to be closer to the truth.

Ask the survivors of the aid flotilla the same question.

Ask the relatives of the assassinated Hamas leader.

Ask anybody who has experience of the Israelis dedication to democracy (for Israelis only), tolerance (for Israelis only), and freedom (for Israelis only), whether they feel that it is Israel, or themselves, in greater danger of elimination.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:03 PM

""Would this be the "political opponent" to whom you are referring DonT?""

It would indeed, and a thoroughly nasty piece of work he was.

That does not, however, justify violating the territorial boundaries of a sovereign nation, using cloned passports of real people (which could, in some countries get the genuine passport holders a bullet in the head), and committing cold blooded, premeditated, murder.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:27 PM

Yet another viewpoint from Haaretz, French philosopher Bernard Henri-Lévy

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:32 PM

I suggest that't true for all those here...hopefully it's not a surprise for anyone posting their opinions....otherwise they will likely be dissapointed

Actually, that's not true. The more people expose the truth of what is going on, the more people wake up and decide to do something about it. When I started speaking up about it, in 2002, the situation was very different than it is today. The number of people who understood the reality of what has been happening was vastly smaller than it is now. And without people exposing the truth in the face of the propaganda, and making sure that the propaganda is not the only narrative out there for people to see and hear, this would not be the case. For a very long time, the propaganda was the only narrative that was seen and heard by most people in the West. This has changed dramatically now that the internet makes it much easier to cut through the propaganda and the hasbara. Speaking up is what creates change. And as my friend said, "silence = death".

The reason there is nothing you can do to prevent this from happening is because you are repeating the discredited narrative that is becoming more and more difficult to maintain by the people trying to hold on to the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 10:33 PM

Since Judaism is a religion, it cannot possibly be a nationality.

Cramped thinking, anyone? Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. For the most part the two sets coincide.

Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years). Only Jews are registered and called up in the selective service. Jews from anywhere in the world are given a free immigration pass, but no other people group has that privilege (certainly not displaced Palestinians whose land was stolen from them in either 1948 or 1967!). What else needs to be the case for it to be a Jewish state? Zionism is not about creating a secular democracy where Jews and everybody else can settle at will. It's about creating a Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:21 PM

Interesting perspective on Helen Thomas

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:38 PM

Here's more truth telling in the face of the propaganda...

http://freedocumentaries.org/teatro.php?filmID=104&lan=undefined&size=undefined

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:06 AM

More on the subject of the link in my last post. Those Sailors and Marines must have been terrorists trying to bring weapons to Gaza disguised as humanitarian aid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f98jxoUUrzg

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:24 AM

Anti-semitism is an evil thing, and the rise in anti-Semitism cannot be anything but bad. Links to the Nazis like the Italian "don't buy from Jews" slogan, even if unintentional (and I have a hard time believing they are unintentional), are wronger than a wrong thing that's not right. And we at Mudcat know how wonderful the BNP isn't.

I really don't think the state of Israel is doing the worldwide cause of reducing anti-Semitism any favours, though, in its actions over the past couple of weeks. It is wrong to hate Jews because of what the Israeli government is doing. But it's also hard to say "Uncle Bob is really a nice guy" when everyone can see he's kicking the dog.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:44 AM

Here's another musical note - a nice rendition of We Shall Overcome...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnMMHepfYVc

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM

Awful. A political culture that lost the sense of the good things that produced decades ago and can't read the present.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:25 AM

A very bad idea to transform We Shall Overcome in a sectarian anthem, it had a universal breath. CarolC, being on a Folk and Traditional music site, I suggest your song to be Child #155.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:33 AM

In what country are you, Roberto?

That song is an icon of the US civil rights movement from our own apartheid days. Since the work on behalf of freedom and equal rights for Palestinians is every bit as much a civil rights movement as was the movement for which that song is an icon, it's actually a perfect song for this struggle. We're not a new movement. We are just people carrying the torch forward from the past to the present day manifestation of the same old struggle.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:48 AM

It is because it was a song from the Civil Rights Movement that I can't accept it to be bent to a sectarian support to a part that doesn't recognize at all civil rights, not even the idea of them, as Hamas regime. You are carrying the torch down a ditch. I'm from Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:35 AM

"I suggest your song to be Child #155."
There has been NO anti Semitism on this thread.
There has been virtually no evidence of anti Semitism in the general response to recent events in Gaza; certainly not in Britain and Ireland.
The reaction has been entirely against the brutal nature with which the Israelis have carried out their expansionist policies - nothing more than that.
Previous requests have been met with silence - let's try again - if you have any evidence of anti-Semitism on this thread, please produce it. If you are unable to, it is you who is carrying "the torch down a ditch" - into the gutter in fact Roberto.
Crying "anti- Semitism" whenever Israeli actions are criticised is a deep and harmeful insult to the real victims of anti-Semitism - you really should be ashamed of yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:03 AM

Carol, you asked "Keith, I want to see the language that defines who can blockade whom. The language I've seen so far says that a country can prevent foreign countries from bringing anything to the shores of the country that is enforcing the blockade. I have not yet seen any other definitions of who can conduct blockades and who can be blockaded."

A blockade is a method of warfare between belligerent states.
Here are the relevant San Remo sections.

Blockade

93. A blockade shall be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral States.

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

95. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact.

96. The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements.

97. A blockade may be enforced and maintained by a combination of legitimate methods and means of warfare provided this combination does not result in acts inconsistent with the rules set out in this document.

98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.

99. A blockade must not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.

100. A blockade must be applied impartially to the vessels of all States.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM

98



(and centenery post too)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:12 AM

Regarding previous Israeli enforcements of the blockade, you may think they were heavy handed, but there has never been shooting or deaths apart from this one ship.
Explanation?
Israel certainly gained nothing and has been damaged by it.
Is it significant that families of some of the killed have stated that they wanted to be martyred?

You have said I am in no position to describe others as partisan.
I am suspicious of the statements of both sides and try to judge by their actions not their words.

How do you know that there are witheld videos?
Why should we not believe the evidence visible in the images that have appeared?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:33 AM

"The reason there is nothing you can do to prevent this from happening is because you are repeating the discredited narrative that is becoming more and more difficult to maintain by the people trying to hold on to the status quo".

CaroleC
Just because you post alot (the record on this tread speaks for itself), does mot mean you are posting anything new....that hasn't been said alot by your compadres on the web.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:50 AM

Jim Carroll, I'm not ashamed of myself for contrasting a view of the Israeli/Palestinian tragedy that considers only one side and doesn't value at all the right to exist of the other side. I'm not ashamed of saying that the single-state solution is only a more presentable version of the project to destroy Israel. Also the single-state solution as promoted by Israel's extreme right wing is totally unacceptable. South African Apartheid is a misleading comparison. I'm not ashamed to criticize them who propose a fairy-tale vision of Hamas democracy, as CarolC does. I'm not ashamed of saying that you can't make a present of We Shall Overcome to radical islamism. I'm sorry that you think I would stop saying these things and retraet in shame, I won't meet your wishes.

You write: "There has been virtually no evidence of anti Semitism in the general response to recent events in Gaza". As I've written previously, the Italian group on the flotilla was no doubt formed by anti-semite. Please, go and visit their site, TerraSantaLibera, HolyLandFree, there is also a section in English.. The demonstrations in Italy, as usual when Israel is involved, have had several anti-semite traits. In Italy… Only in Italy? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM

"Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years)".

If the site below is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, it indicates that the statement above is not a fact...but propaganda often repeated in the past.


http://www.meforum.org/370/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:09 AM

How do you know there are withelf videos?

Keith, the passenger lists on the boats included a number of people of various nationalities - some of these had a more visable public face than others

Amongst them were -

Henning Mankell, 62, the Swedish author of the Inspector Wallander books, was released today and is flying home. He was on board with eight other Swedes. Mankell is married to the daughter of the film maker Ingmar Bergman.

"We are worried about our friends who are still in jail," he told the Expressen tabloid on a flight to Sweden.

The daily, which published a picture of Mankell standing in the aisle of the aircraft , reported that the author and Mehmet Kaplan, a Swedish MP, had been allowed to leave Israel.

The Swedish Foreign Ministry said four of the eleven Swedes who had been travelling with the flotilla when it was attacked early yesterday had been permitted to return home.

Anders Joerle, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, said that the others were not all being held at the same place and some had been imprisoned while some had simply been taken into custody.

The former US Ambassador

Edward Peck, 81, a former US Ambassador to Mauritania, was expected to arrive home today after the Free Palestine movement ship that he was on was seized by Israeli commandos.

Ann Peck, his wife, said that she received a brief e-mail from the Israeli Foreign Ministry yewsterday informing her that her husband was fine and on his way home. The e-mail said he was likely to arrive today, but that did not have a mobile phone with him and would call from an unnamed New York airport when he landed, she said.

"He gets himself into these messes, and the phone is going to ring," she joked.

Mrs Peck said that as of yesterday evening she had not spoken to US officials, nor had she been able to talk to her husband, since the raid. She had last spoke with him briefly by satellite phone just as the aid ships were leaving their rendezvous point.

"Knowing him I doubt there are regrets," she said. "I think he was really hopeful of it making a difference."

Mr Peck served as deputy director in President Reagan's White House Task Force on Terrorism.

The US Navy veteran

Joe Meadors, 63, of Texas, is a navy veteran. His wife Jean said yesterday evening that she believed he was safe, "but I'd like to hear that from him".

She said his exact status, whether under arrest, detention or otherwise, was unclear.

Mr Meadors served aboard the US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty that was attacked by Israeli forces in 1967, killing 34 crew members.

"He hasn't had much luck with the Israelis," his wife said.

The television producer

David Schermerhorn, retired television commercial producer of Washington state, was also on the flotilla as an activist with the Cyprus-based Free Gaza Movement, his daughter told The Seattle Times.

Kate Schermerhorn said US Embassy officials had told her that the 80-year-old was taken into custody by Israeli officials and was unharmed.

The Germans

Norman Paech, 72, a former member of parliament, who was on board, told reporters in Berlin: "Personally, I saw two and a half wooden batons that were used . . . There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives. The Israeli Government justifies the raid because they were attacked. This was absolutely not the case. This was not an act of self-defence."

Mr Paech said that he had taken photographic evidence, but Israeli authorities confiscated his camera. "We had not prepared in any way to fight. We didn't even consider it. No violence, no resistance — because we knew very well that we would have absolutely no chance against soldiers like this. This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission . . . This was a clear act of piracy," he said.

A German doctor, Matthias Jochheim, was also on the ship and said he had seen four dead bodies and expected the death toll to be 15.

Inge Hoeger and Annette Groth, two German MPs who had been on board the convoy, also said that they had seen no one with weapons.

The Irish

The group of Irish activists held in Beersheba includes Paul McGeough, 56, an Irish-born journalist and chief correspondent of the Sydney Morning Herald. He has reported from the Middle East for two decades.

Dublin-based Shane Dillon, 36, first mate on the Challenger 1, was being deported today. He has served as chief officer on Irish and British merchant ships. He is the brother of the musician Eoin Dillon from the traditional band Kila.

Dr Fintan Lane, 43, is a historian, political activist and spokesman for the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign. He is the author or editor of seven books on modern Irish history.

Fiachra O Luain, 28, is peace activist from Donegal who stood unsuccessfully as an independent candidate in the 2009 European elections. He was one of the first people to protest over the US military using Shannon Airport.


The retired German MP specifically mentions the consfication of his camera others have reported since their return the consfication of all personal items like mobile phones etc that could have recorded images

Do you wish to accuse all these disparate individuals of lying?

This week The Israeli Defense Force has issued a "clarification" admitting it manipulated audio of its raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

On Friday, the IDF released audio of what it said was an exchange between Israel Navy officers and the crew of the Mavi Marmara, the main vessel in the flotilla. In it, voices could be heard telling the Israeli soldiers to "go back to Auschwitz" and "we're helping Arabs go against the US -- don't forget 9/11, guys."

But flotilla passengers quickly began disputing the veracity of the audio clip.

On Saturday, the IDF's public blog issued a "correction" explaining that the tape had been edited "so as to make it easier for people to listen to the exchange."

The IDF's latest version of the audio is actually the third version the military organization has released. Its first audio version of the incident, a one-minute clip released the day of the raid, did not include any of the controversial comments -- no voices can be heard saying "Go back to Auschwitz" or "remember 9/11."

Critics of Israel have suggested the audio clip -- and the IDF's admission it was edited -- shows the Israeli military is involved in a propaganda campaign to discredit the flotilla as a humanitarian effort. And investigative journalist Max Blumenthal notes that the IDF audio has already made its way into US media as fact.

"Hours after the IDF's admission, major news outlets which reported on the doctored audio clip as though it was a shocking revelation and not a scandalous forgery have still not corrected themselves," Blumenthal writes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM

Roberto,
As I said, there has been no evidence of anti-Semiitism either on this thread, nor in general to the recent events - what you describe is the response to Israel's continued and expanding occupation of Palestinian land - it has no place in this present argument.
I cannot speak for Italy - I can only comment on what I see here.
In citing an anti-Semitic ballad as a counter to CarolC's argument you are grossly distorting what she and the rest of us have to say on this affair.
Your "my faith, right or wrong" argument is totally unacceptible and does nothing but damage to your case.
If opposition to Israeli policy is 'anti-Semitic' then equally, support for their actions against the Gazans must be considered anti-Arab, or opposition to Mugabi, or China, or Cuba, or Korea, or Iran - or anywhere you care to name, has to be 'racist'.

According to a letter in today's Irish Post, it seems that I was not alone in my impression that some of the nine killings were executions.

"Madam, - The Turkish autopsies on the activists seeking to bring toys, school books and medicine to the people of Gaza show all but one of the victims of the attack were shot in the back or in the back of the head.
As anyone with military training (I have five years), could tell you; if you are being "attacked by someone with a kitchen knife or a metal bar, you shoot them in the chest. You do not turn your back to them, you do not ask them to turn around so that you can shoot them in the back of the head. And key to this over all, you do not waste your ammunition putting two, three or four bullets into the back of the head of an already dead man. Unless of course you are sending a message.
The victims of the Israeli slaughter in the international waters of the Mediterranean were in fact executed at point-blank range. This was done, with the usual Israeli Defence Forces precision. The only difference is, this time they were not carrying Irish passports. And their message is clear: don't try to help the people of Gaza, our genocide there isn't complete yet.
I am no longer morally able to vilify Hamas. It has my support from this day forward. - Yours, etc,
MICHEAL HIGGINS,
Adare,
Co Limerick."

Todays paper also carries a detailed report of an Irish protester (of Turkish origin) being systematically beaten by Israeli forces.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM

Real-Estate in Israel can be divided into 2 categories private owned, and State owned.

In the "State owned" category is included all real-estate that is owned by the state of Israel itself, and/or local-authorities/municipalities. and/or governmental institutions and/or governmental corporations


1. According to a basic (constitutional) Law called The Basic Law of the Lands of Israel, The State may not sell the ownership in it's lands to anyone, not even citizens of Israel and/or Israeli corporations.
Nevertheless, the state may and does rent (lease) it's real-estate, keeping the ownership always to itself.
The rent (lease) is usually for a period of 49 years that automatically renews itself for another 49 years, so in total – 98 years.
The long period of the rent makes the leaser almost an owner, yet the state, as formal owner, may intervene and/or veto requested actions in the real-estate (such as building on it, as any owner would).

A big part of the residential property in Israel is owned by the State and leased to the residents in the above way.

2. The State of Israel has rules restricting the possibility of foreign people and foreign corporations to lease State owned residential property.
In general, these limitations do not allow foreigners to acquire State owned property. There are several exceptions, one of which is that foreigners that are entitled to Israeli Citizenship according to the Israeli Law of Return would receive permission to buy (actually – as said above – rent) such State owned property.

The above Law gives this privilege to any Jewish person, man or woman, anywhere around the Globe.

Non-Jewish persons would have grave difficulties to own (actually – as said above – rent) state owned real-estate.

The above situation is both when renting the real-estate from the State itself ("first hand" property, that is new property/apartment) and when buying the rights from a former renter ("second hand" property/apartment)

3. In addition to the above, special problems may rise if the desired residential property is not in one of the cities but in a Kibbutz or other social-corporated village, usually integrating residential usage and agronomical usage of the lands.

Not only that these lands are owned by the State, therefore the above rules in art. 1-2 apply, but these social-corporations have inner rules restricting who may become a member in them. These inner rules usually do not allow foreigners and non-citizens to become their members.

- from Israeli Law - Laws regarding property ownership in Israel
information provided by Yosef Miller, adv.
Miller – Sieradzki
Advocates & Patent Attorneys
18 Mahanaim st, Haifa, Israel

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM

Emma, thanks again.
I did know that there were lots of nice people in the flotilla, and I am not questioning what happened on other vessels.

Ignoring claims and counter claims, I find it impossible to beieve that
1 Israelis thought it a good idea to make this the first and only antiblockade ship they have ever fired on.
2 Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready.

I find it easier to believe that some on board, willing to die as martyrs fighting Israel, flew at the soldiers and began clubbing them as can clearly be seen in video.

Abducted Israeli soldiers are invariably murdered and that would influence what happened next.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM

""Cramped thinking, anyone? Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. For the most part the two sets coincide.""

NO! IT IS NOT!

The religion is Judaism.

The ethnicity, tragically, is Semite. I say tragically because it is the same ethnicity as the people they they are oppressing, and trying to destroy.

There is a crying need to expose this nonsensical insistance that a religion is the same thing as ethnicity, and the same thing as nationality.

It simply is not true.

There are Jews of every nationality on this planet, and the vast majority of the world's Jews have never even visited Israel.

Two thousand years ago, Palestine was a country of Jews and Arabs living together in harmony, who were being oppressed by Rome. Those Jews and Arabs were all Palestinians.

Today we have both Jews and Arabs living (rather more uneasily) side by side in Israel. Those Jews and Arabs are Israelis.

Then and now, the country has both Jewish and Muslim, as well as some Christians, but it is not a Jewish, nor a muslim, nor yet a Christian state.

By its actions, it is apparently a fascist state, wishing to expand into ever larger areas currently outside its legal borders. It does not care about world opinion, and is inhumane in the extreme, in its dealings with weaker opponents.

Does this ring any bells for those who can remember 60+ years ago?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:14 AM

""It is wrong to hate Jews because of what the Israeli government is doing. But it's also hard to say "Uncle Bob is really a nice guy" when everyone can see he's kicking the dog.""

In case it has escaped your attention Mousethief, most of us here are trying our best to lay the blame where it belongs, on the Israeli government, not on the jewish population of Israel.

It is you who constantly states that the two are in fact one unit, and thereby lays blame on innocent Jews.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:25 AM

""Jim Carroll, I'm not ashamed of myself for contrasting a view of the Israeli/Palestinian tragedy that considers only one side and doesn't value at all the right to exist of the other side.""

Roberto, you are seriously out of order.

Nobody here has ever (to my knowledge) denied the right of Israel to exist.

What we are opposed to is its expansion into areas set aside for Palestinians, its colonisation of the more fertile regions of these areas, its brutal suppression of any resistance to the above, and its apparent intention of starving the inhabitants of Gaza so that they will leave, or die.

I do not think that our objections are unreasonable, or anti-Semitic.

What do you think?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:32 AM

EmmaB, Why not just provide a link to the articles, and state your point, rather than cutting and pasting them. It just takes up space,makes it a difficult read and takes away from your point rather than adding to it. Long posts tend to get ignored, or the point is lost in the fog:)...IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM

Those who deny anti-semitism may wish to read and reflect upon the following.


Irwin Cotler: The new anti-Semitism
Posted: February 17, 2009, 9:00 AM by Kelly McParland

Reflecting on the contemporary surge in anti-Semitism, Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel has stated, "I have not felt the way I feel now since 1945. I feel there are reasons for us to be concerned, even afraid ... Now is the time to mobilize the efforts of all of humanity." This sentiment is what brings together parliamentarians from around the world, for the first conference of the International Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism.

What we are witnessing today is a new sophisticated, virulent and even lethal anti-Semitism, reminiscent of the atmospherics of the 1930s, and without parallel since the end of the Second World War. This new anti-Jewishness found early juridical expression in the United Nations' "Zionism is Racism" resolution, but has gone beyond that. Traditional anti-Semitism is the discrimination against, denial of or assault upon the rights of Jews to live as equal members of whatever host society they inhabit. The new anti-Semitism involves discrimination against the right of the Jewish people to live as an equal member of the family of nations -- the denial of, and assault upon, the Jewish people's right even to live -- with Israel as the "collective Jew among the nations."

Observing the complex intersections between the old and new anti-Semitism, Per Ahlmark, Deputy Prime Minister of Sweden, pithily remarked that the new anti-Semitism is marked by attacks on the "collective Jews -- the State of Israel," which then "start a chain reaction of assaults on individual Jews and Jewish institutions." In and around my home city of Montreal, I have witnessed chilling examples of these phenomena -- from the firebombing of my own high school, to the physical assault of Jews in the Laurentians, to the vociferous chants against Israel during recent Gaza hostilities.

Let me be clear: I have never argued that Israel should be immune from criticism. But the protesters at purported anti-Israel rallies who cry "Jews are our dogs" are of common ilk with traditional anti-Semites. The whole underscores Ahlmark's conclusion: "In the past, the most dangerous anti-Semites were those who wanted to make the world Judenrein, 'free of Jews.' Today, the most dangerous anti-Semites might be those who want to make the world Judenstaatrein, 'free of a Jewish state.'"

The indices of this new anti-Semitism are different from those of the old. Today it may be uncommon for a Jew to be refused service in a restaurant. But now Israel remains the standing object of genocidal threat from Iran and its terrorist proxies Hezbollah and Hamas; the Jewish state is singled out in the international arena while the major human rights violators of our time enjoy exculpatory immunity; the legitimacy of Israel is discriminatorily scrutinized to the extent that, for the purpose of country groupings at the United Nations, it is considered not even to "exist" in Asia; and less sophisticated voices spread rumors of Israelis injecting Palestinians with the AIDS virus. Jews may no longer be denied equal housing, but they are now being denied an equal homeland.

As New York Times commentator Thomas Friedman put it: "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanctions, out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

It is this escalation of anti-Semitism that necessitates the establishment of an International Parliamentary Coalition to confront this oldest and most enduring of hatreds. Silence is not an option. The time has come to act. For as history has taught us only too well: While it may begin with Jews, it does not end with Jews. Anti-Semitism is the canary in the mine shaft of evil, and it threatens us all.

National Post

Irwin Cotler is the MP for Mount Royal and former minister of justice and attorney-general of Canada. He is a professor of law (on leave) from McGill University who has written extensively on matters of hate, racism and human rights. He is a co-founder of the International Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism with U. K. MP John Mann.

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/02/17/irwin-cotler-the-new-anti-semitism.aspx#ixzz0qLpR7qJH

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:50 AM

"I find it easier to believe that some on board, willing to die as martyrs fighting Israel, flew at the soldiers and began clubbing them as can clearly be seen in video.

Abducted Israeli soldiers are invariably murdered and that would influence what happened next. "

On what basis do you find that easier to believe?

If it is that abducted soldiers invariably get murdered then you have no premiss, as in this case the abducted soldiers were not murdered, but instead, once they were disarmed, received treatment.

You also asked how we know that Israel is witholding video evidence.

We know because numerous reputable reporters on board have said that their video and photographic evidence was stolen.

The evidence on the one hand that there was a deliberate attempt to misinform, and on the other hand that evidence has been hidden, all adds up to an overwhelming likelihood that the Israeli Govt is covering up and that their version of events is unreliable.

Now apart from your feeling of what you find easy or hard to believe, what evidence have you that the passengers on board are not telling the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:53 AM

Ed, I have come to the conclusion from the comments posted by some people that they don't actually bother to look up the actual links therefore a summary of some of the information may give an impression of the contents and the reference will enable them to check out the original

The extract that I chose from the advice by the Israeli Law firm specifically addressed your challenge that

"Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years)".

was "not a fact...but propaganda often repeated in the past."


Sometimes several short extracts from longer articles serve to illustrate a particular issue which the links alone would not do or a particular point is contained in a much longer article that may be irrelevant to the specific discussion .
I am by no means the only poster who uses this form and rarely, unlike some others, post whole newspaper articles.

Joe Offer is the arbitrator of 'style' - but I take your point completely about lengthy posts and have strived to contain posts to one screen where ever possible in the past
As people in this thread have pointed out however the issues are complex.

now back to topic.......

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:58 AM

Keith I am more likely to subscribe to the theory of 'major military cock-up' these are by no means unknown in history

Neither is the tendency to present such a cock-up resulting in an unacceptable loss of life as something different in order to 'save face' a prime example of which was disastrous charge of British cavalry led by Lord Cardigan against Russian forces during the Battle of Balaclava in the Crimean War immortalized by Alfred, Lord Tennyson, whose lines have made the charge a symbol of courageous warfare

Writing in Haaretz Reuven Pedatzur reports

"Perhaps the commanders of the Israel Navy and policymakers should have read history books before sending special forces to raid boats carrying civilians."
"The operational details of Israel's takeover of the flotilla of boats headed to Gaza won't be clear for many days, if ever. But there's no need to wait for a blow-by-blow account to point out that from the military point of view, it is hard to understand how an action that the Israel Navy spent so long planning ended up in so severe a debacle."

"And that's without even addressing the questions that arise regarding how wise it was to carry out a military action against civilian craft in international waters."

"The decision to act at night is also problematic. Presumably, some of the commotion and the hysteria on the ship was a result of the fact that neither the soldiers nor the civilians could see clearly what was going on. This is a sure recipe for escalation on the part of people who have to guess without being able to see who is approaching them and what they are doing."

From the same newspaper

Fiasco on the high seas by By Ari Shavit

"Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Barak and Moshe Ya'alon are supposed to know history. They are supposed to know there was no greater mistake than that of the British with regard to the illegal immigrant ship Exodus in the summer of 1947. The brutality employed by the British Mandate against a ferry loaded with Jewish refugees turned the regime into an object of revile.
It lost what is now called international legitimacy

The Turkish ship Mavi Marmara was no Exodus.

But a series of baseless decisions on the part of the prime minister and the ministers of defense and of strategic affairs turned the Marmara into a Palestinian Exodus. With a single foolish move, the Israeli cabinet cast the Muslim Brotherhood in the role of the victim and the Israel Navy as the villain and simultaneously opened European, Turkish, Arab, Palestinian and internal Israeli fronts.
In so doing, Israel is serving Hamas' interests better than Hamas itself has ever done.

Perhaps the most troubling question in the wake of this fiasco on the high sea is this: Who is navigating our ship of state, and toward what catastrophe are the captains of this ship of fools steering us? "


Given the reaction in Israel - not to mention internationally - it is not difficult to see how a government prepared to sanction the forging of British Australian and Irish passports to enable a state sponsored assassination had no compunction other than to put the best possible spin on this attack in international waters.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:03 AM

Lox, I find that scenario easier to beieve than the alternative, i.e.
1 Israelis thought it a good idea to make this the first and only antiblockade ship they have ever fired on.
2 Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready.

The previous treatment of Israeli prisoners would influence how their friends and comrades reacted to this abduction.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:04 AM

You know edT,

In the UK recently we have seen the formaton of a new group of right wing nationalists called the English Defence Leaugue.

They hold rallies outside mosques and exist to drive Moslems out of Britain.

They are comosed of football thugs and other BNP old guard.

I suggest you look at some of the Youtube videos of them as they chant their slogans of hate.

You may be surprised to see a few Israeli flags being waved.

There is conflict brewing at a very low level in the UK between Jews and Moslems.

Firstly it is important to note that there is NO evidence of a large scale cultural antisemitism as described in your article.

But secondly, what tension that does exist is as much the product of Islamophobia as it is a product of Anti-semitism.

In addition, there have not been similar rallies by moslems outside synagogues.

Islamophobia is also heavily promoted by newspapers like the sun, the mail and the express, and moslems are an at risk section of society in the UK as a result of this, much more so than British Jews.


Gerald Kaufman, Friend of Golda Meyer and Jewish Member of the UK Parliament has criticized Israel for hiding behind the holocaust and accusations of anti-semitism in an attempt to justify what he describes as the murder of palestinians.


I personally, coming from an Irish perspective, know that it is essential to recognize political problems as just that political problems, and not religious or cultural ones.

Political problems need political solutions.

Blaming the whole world for being Jew haters in response to accusations of Human rights abuses and racism is not an effective political solution.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM

Was the blockade legal: I suspect so, as they have been impsed by states before and international law seems fuzzy in this area.

Was the blockade wise to impose:No

Was the blockade excessive (though to me it is more like a quarintine): Most certainly

Is there a case to be made that it breaks humaritarian laws: I feel there is a good one, and would expect the UN to be more agressive in dealing with it.

Has the blockade helped Israel? Maybe it halted an escallation of the Hamas rocket fire, but in the long run it can only hurt Israel.

Has the Blockade helped the long term Hamas cause: Yes

Has the Blockade hurt the peace process. I see that the jury is out on this one. It did little to build trust and has focused opinion against Israel (not for those aready clearly opposed to Israel).It may increase international pressure on Israel to work towards peace. But, peace requires trust and willing partners...not just international pressure.

Would international santions force Israel into a peace process and to make concessions? I feel this would be no more effective in changing Israel's position than changing the position of Hamas through a blockade. So, my answer is no.

Do Hamas and Israel care about the impact of the blockade on civilians. The site below seems to state that concern for civilians is often secondary to broader objectives of governments involved. However, I would like to believe people care about people...beyond those broader national/government/military strategic issues or goals. But, I have been often dissapointed by governments before. While I have been dissapointed in the past, I hold onto a faith in humanity and people care about people...regardless of their ethnic background and history, religeon, or natioinality.

Here is a perspective on blockades:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1995/TC.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:09 AM

Emma, the cock up I find most likely was the soldiers being left vulnerable and exposed. The fight was not anticipated and perhaps should have been. The day before Hamas TV showed an interviewee who said that some on board wanted martyrdom more than they wanted to get to Gaza.

You are suggesting that there was an attack, a cock up, but then the soldiers would not have landed one at a time without weapons at the ready.
Hard to believe I think.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

"While I have been dissapointed in the past, I hold onto a faith in humanity and people care about people...regardless of their ethnic background and history, religeon, or natioinality."

Right on Ed - hold onto that - it maybe all we have left.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

Hamas TV clip referred to above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HThF8ft5Cls

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM

DonT ".....its apparent intention of starving the inhabitants of Gaza so that they will leave, or die."


"We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them. It does not prevent the daily arrival, via Israel, of between 100 and 120 trucks laden with foodstuffs, medical supplies and humanitarian goods of every kind. Humanity is not "in danger" in Gaza, and it is a lie to state that people are "dying of hunger" in the streets of Gaza City."

Bernard-Henri Lévy
Haaretz, Wed.June 9, 2010

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM

"Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready."

1. How do you know the weapons weren't at the ready?

2. Testimony from the passengers states that live ammo was fired from above and from the boats before the troops landed. This testimony is corroborated by the commentary in the live feed which states that some of the passengers were wounded before any troops landed.

It is clear that the troops did not expect the resistance they encountered, but this says nothing about whether or not they were the aggressors, it just shows that they underestimated the determination of the people on board.

It is really important to ask who is trying to cover the evidence up and who is trying to make it public.

The question of who is telling the truth is best answered by that factor alone.

Israel has engaged in a clear policy of falsified evidence, secrecy, accusations of terrorist links and accusations of global anti semitism.

Nowhere do I see them saying "here is the evidence, we welcome an independent enquiry"

There is not much that is believable about the official Israeli positon.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM

Lox stated:

"Firstly it is important to note that there is NO evidence of a large scale cultural antisemitism as described in your article".

I am not sure where your last comments to me come from?

Possibly there was a suggestion of something like that included somewhare in an article I linked to (I did not notice it, or I would have stated that this is not my position) to make another point. To be clear, that was not a position I hold.

BuAlso, it was not "my article" as you state. In fact, I have not given a position on "a large scale cultural antisemitism" To tell you the truth, I have not even thought about this, done any research, nor have a current position on that. Just because some posts an article for consideration, it does not mean all contents on the site is their position, nor the article "their article".

I do not believe I have accused anyone here of anti sematism. I do not equate being anti Israeli or having a position (or being associated with like minded groups) on the Palestine-Israel issue with antisemitism... However, I recognise some do suggust such a connection.I have mostly stayed clear of that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM

How do you know the weapons weren't at the ready?

Caorol's video shows soldiers descending.
The firing does not start until much later.
I find it hard to believe that IDF commandos would allow themselves to be clubbed into submission without firing a shot if they had weapons to hand.

Your uncritical acceptance of one side of the story is foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:36 AM

Ed T,

I'm sorry, I made a mistake.

In fact I wasn't referring to any post of yours at all.

I was referring to the article posted in the following post from Bobad.

"From: bobad - PM
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM"


I would add thought, that even if you had posted the article, in criticizing it or questioning the motives of the authour, I would in no way wish to suggest that I was making the same criticism or asking the same questions of the poster.

My response would be an attempt to scrutinize and debate the content of the article.


Hence, in responding to Bobas article I do not attribute the views of its authour to him, but nonetheless feel it is deserving of the response I have given.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM

"Your uncritical acceptance of one side of the story is foolish."

Uncritical?

I have responded to the available evidence.

We have yet to see grounds upon which to base doubts on the testimony of the passengers of the ship.

We have on the other hand seen numerous and varied grounds to doubt the testimony of the IDF and te Israeli Govt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:50 AM

Carol's video again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g

The soldiers descend at 2 minutes 3seconds.
The narrator says nothing of fire from above, only of some kind of cannisters fired from boats which seem not to cause any alarm.
There is talk of the two captured soldiers, and then first shot are clearly heard and reacted to at 4 minutes 44seconds.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:57 AM

Do watch it again.
The "attack" on the ship is by just two soldiers who do not fire a shot.
Help does not arrive for about 2minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:17 AM

The French Subtitles at the very start read as follows:

"Il y'a actuellement des blesses des deux cotes du navire"

Which means "There are actually injured [people] on both sides of the ship."

That is before Anything at all happpens in the video.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM

Then the next frame says,

"On deplore plusieur blesse, Oui il y a plusieurs blesse"

to translate -

"On deplore plusieur blesse"

Means "one deplores more injured [as if to say lets hope there are no more injured]"

"Oui il y a plusieurs blesse"

Meaning "Yes there are more injured"


The commentary then goes on about the ship being under seige and being in international waters.

All this before the English speaking reporter comes online and all long before the troops abseil down.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:29 AM

Lox. Pity we are not allowed to see them.
Were their "injuries" caused by the "some kind of cannisters"???
Why is there no obvious concern as when the shooting starts?
The cannisters obviously do not explode.
What could they be?
I suggested earlier that the boats were trying to get lines on board.
That would not have been necessary had the ship complied with the requests.
I suppose that could cause a bruise or a graze if someone got in the way.

The video shows, despite the hysterical narration, that the ship was not attacked at all. Two soldiers descended to the deck and were brutally set upon.
The hard evidence is Carol's video and those we have all seen of people landing blow after blow with metal bars.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

It was claimed that the helicopter fired on the ship before the landings, and you repeated it just now Lox.
Carol's video shows that to have been a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:39 AM

"The hard evidence is Carol's video and those we have all seen of people landing blow after blow with metal bars."

That is only Some of the hard evidence Keith.

You need to consider all of it together.

The murderous passengers didn't murder anyone.

They could have very easily.

They claim they were trying to disarm the soldiers.

This claim bears scrutiny.


There is no evidence upon which to base doubts about their testimony.

Til there is, it stands up as evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:45 AM

"Carol's video shows that to have been a lie."

No it doesn't.


The word "Deplore" in French is not a judgemental word.

It alsio means to "Bewail" and "Bemoan".

Its use is more sympathetic than critical.

The reporters are effectivley grieving that passengers have been injured.

This is not 100% proof thet live rounds were fired before the troops landed, but it does corroborate the eye witness testimonies of passengers who claim that they were shot from above before troops landed and who say that they saw people being shot before troops landed.


The live commentary of the reporters in the live feed is evidence that accusations of the Israelis firing before they landed are true and accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:48 AM

"Carol's video shows that to have been a lie."

Come on then Keith, explain how it shows that?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM

It is hard evidence.
There is no mistaking the point on the video when the first shots are fired.
They can clearly be heard, and the people react and disperse.
The narrator only speaks of "some kind of cannisters" from the boats.
He would hardly overlook being shot at!
The witnesses who say that live rounds were fired before the landing are proven liars.
And you are shown to be naive and credulous.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:52 AM

"Carol's video shows that to have been a lie."

In order to show this it would have to prove beyond doubt that no bullets were fired.

In fact it does no such thing.

In fact, it corroborates eye witness testimony.

Which makes your comment plain wrong.

Nice try but no cigar.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:53 AM

"The witnesses who say that live rounds were fired before the landing are proven liars."

Which ones?

And by whom?

Link please ...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM

"There is no mistaking the point on the video when the first shots are fired.
They can clearly be heard, and the people react and disperse."

The ones on the deck can be heard.

What about shots from a noisy helicopter - could they be heard Keith?


I can't see your trousers - does it follow that I have proved you not to be wearing any?


No - but that is the principle of your nonsense argument.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:07 AM

The testimony of 'staff Sergeant S,' who is being considered for a medal, is contrary to initial Israeli Army reports

He has stated the shooting had started within minutes as he and his comrades were set upon by a "mob of mercenaries". and taking charge, he formed his men in a perimeter around the wounded, pulled his 9mm Glock pistol and opened fire on passengers he accused of shooting at the boarding party with guns taken off the first soldiers, who had been overwhelmed as they landed one by one.
"These were without a doubt terrorists. I could see the murderous rage in their eyes and that they were coming to kill us."

Now none of this holds up with 'official' reports, the testimony of the passengers or even the video Keith linked to which is quite explicit (in French) of the events unfolding

Amongst the inescapable anomalies is the instance by the Israeli government that "The soldiers reported that the activists had fired on them during the confrontation and that at least two commandos suffered gunshot wounds.
After the incident, 9mm bullet casings were found - a kind NOT used by the naval commandos."

WHAT not even Staff Sergeant S's Glock?

The not particularly left wing or pro Palestinian Times points out in its reporting that

"Israeli officials have accused the Turks who attacked them of links to terrorist groups, although it was unclear why, in that case, the soldiers of Flotilla 13, the elite Navy Seals unit involved in the operation, were briefed only to expect peaceful resistance.
The question also remained as to why the passengers, if they were indeed terrorists, did not use deadlier weapons against the approaching naval launches and helicopters hovering overhead.

Alexandra Lort-Phillips, 37, an activist from Hackney, was on the Mavi Marmara when it was stormed and described seeing an Israeli soldier taken down into the stairwell below the deck where the soldiers landed

"I saw a gun being taken. His gunbelt was removed and someone, I don't know who, ran past me with the weapon and disappeared. They could have shot him but didn't."

Report from Haaretz

"The Israeli Navy says it went over "incidents and responses" in preparation; these included opening fire at charging activists with melee weapons. In case of a threat to their lives, the commandos were ordered to shoot to kill even as they were on their way onto the deck.
Another officer said that "we became a little spoiled, as a society, expecting perfect performances."

According to a senior officer…..

"NO REAL PEACE ACTIVIST WAS INJURED. NO SOLDIER WAS KILLED, EVEN THOUGH IT CAME PRETTY CLOSE. IN THE END THE SHIPS ARE DOCKED AT ASHDOD. IT WAS VERY COMPLICATED AND THE RESULT IS NEAR PERFECT."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM

Lox, they would have heard shots from the boats and seen them fired.
Do you accept that was a lie?

If people on the ship were being hit by live rounds it is very hard to believe that the narrator and those around him were oblivious. They were aware of "some kind of cannisters" hitting the ship but not bullets???

It is impossible to believe that the commandos would descend without weapons to hand if they had already fired on the ship.

You have seen the video evidence but close your mind to its story.
Two legs good, four legs bad.
No other evidence accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

"We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them."
THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE - I've yet to hear of arms made of cement, yet this formed a large part of the cargo and is desperately needed to rebuild the schools and hospitals damaged and destroyed by the Israelis during their last incursion into Gaza This is included on their list of banned marterials.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM

Emma, that account actually is consistent with the video.

The commentary does not speak of any shots before the landings, only of cannisters and unspecified injuries.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM

"Lox, they would have heard shots from the boats and seen them fired.
Do you accept that was a lie?"

"it is very hard to believe that the narrator and those around him were oblivious"

Keith.

First they commented that there were ALREADY numerous injured passengers on both sides of the boat.

Then they commented that this number was increasing.

The deplored, bewailed and bemoaned this tragedy and hoped there would not be more injured, but were shocked to report that the numbers were increasing.

Then AFTER that they commented that canisters were being dropped onto the boat.

This is hardly evidence that they were oblivious to anything.

They weren't oblivious to it, they were REPORTING IT.

As for the other alleged lie,

I don't think we can say that the video proves there were no shots from the boats.

Keith - ever been on the deck of a ship going at full speed? In this case with two noisy helicopters 20 or 30 metres overhead, numerous powerboats with large engines on all sides, and the sea wind whippping any sound from those boats back and away from the ship, and the noise of the Mavi Marmaras engines and the melee of scared passengers and reporters on board, we cannot say that not hearing such shots is evidence that they didn't happen.

The reporters are shouting to be heard on microphones they are holding next to their faces.

If the video doesn't prove that no shots were fired from the boats, then it doesn't prove that testimony to be aa lie either.


Sorry, but there is no evidence of lies being told about shooting yet.

There is evidence to corroborate the passengers testimony though.



So Two legs, four legs, whatever thats all about, is of no interest to me.

Your attempt to discredit the passengers testimony has utterly failed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM

Firstly, I was wrong to say only two commandos descended.
I was wathching the timer and missed the others.

The microphone used for the commentary was very low sensitivity.
It does not pick up voices a few feet away. You barely hear the helicopters.
The gunfire is as far away as the helicopter but is clearly heard.

The narrator speaks of unspecified, out of sight injuries, never of incoming fire. Just the cannisters.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:52 AM

DonT, referring to Israel: "An oasis of fascism, racism, and discriminatory constraint, would probably be a more apposite description."

My goodness, what an absolutely horrible place that must be. Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM

I meant 4 legs good. Animal Farm.
Never mind.

You will never accept it Lox, but to anyone looking at it rationally, the video makes liars of those who say there was shooting before the landing.

Remember too that Yemeni professor who had been told what was going to happen. Spookily prescient?
I find it easier to believe the flotilla commander did tell him that martyrdom was the main objective.

I think that we may as well give up now, unless more evidence emerges.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM

What is being done here is speculation. The Israel Commandos systematically destroyed all evidence. This was a criminal act by its action. It was a "dead man tells no tales" scenario.
The Mark Regev PR blitz is not to be trusted.

There is no real argument, here. A vessel bound for Gaza to break the blockade offering assistance for the Gazan people was attacked by armed military commandos with the purpose of throwing fear into the unarmed and peaceful resistance.

If you don't get that, then there is no discussion that will make sense here.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:57 AM

Lucky we have that video Stringsinger.
It shows no firing untill nearly 3 minutes after the soldiers landed, were themselves attacked and two abducted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:58 AM

"The gunfire is as far away as the helicopter but is clearly heard."

Not true - it is on the deck just behind the reporters. Before the troops abseiled closer to the reporters they were further away on the helicopters.


"The narrator speaks of unspecified, out of sight injuries, never of incoming fire. Just the cannisters."


True. His comments however are still consstent with the testimony of eyewitnesses on board.

Hence they serve to corroborate the passengers version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

"two abducted."

Nope - sorry but that is your misleading spin.

They were brought to safety below decks and their injuries were treated.

There is photographic evidence of this.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM

That is spin!
If they were asked, "would you like us to take you below, or would you prefer to stay here" what do you HONESTLY believe they would reply?

If they did not want to go it was abduction.

The "witnesses" spoke of being fired on from boats and helicopter before the landings.
The narrator does not mention this.
I can not believe that he would be either unaware, or fail to mention incoming fire.
When the firing does start, they react, switch off the lights and disperse.
It is obvious if you consider the evidence rationally that no shots were fired until nearly 3 minutes after the landings.
They lied.
Watch Carol's video.
They intended what happened.
Watch my Hamas TV video where it is laid out the previous day.

(Did not the firing come from the landing site, about 30 feet below helicopter and about 30 yards from camera/microphone ?)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:20 AM

Mouse crook,

"Only Jews can own land in Israel"

Not true.


"Only Jews are registered and called up in the selective service. "

ONLY Jews are REQUIRED to serve in the military- Isralei Arabs MAY if they choose, but are NOT require.


"Jews from anywhere in the world are given a free immigration pass, but no other people group has that privilege "

Since Israel was established to be the Jewish Homeland, the requirement that ALL JEWS be able to move there seems to make sense.




BTW, why is it that so many here insist that Palestinians whose families left Israel in 1948 have the right to go back, but Jews who were drven out at various times ( from Babylonian times to the present) have no such rights?


What is the time limit that is being proposed- and will you hold the 640,000 Palestinian refugees to the same standards as you hold the 820,000 Jewish ones driven from Arab countries?

How long will someone have to have lived in a place before they can claim it, and how long must they be gone before they lose the right to go back?

And about those Christian Palestinians who fled the Moslims in 1948- do THEY get THEIR land back? If so, the town of Ramallah just became A CHRISTIAN TOWN, and the present inhabitants better get out.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:41 AM

Israel was established to be the Jewish Homeland

No, no, it's not a Jewish homeland. Listen to Ed T. He knows everything. It's not a Jewish state, it isn't, it isn't, it isn't.

Whew. Okay, I'm better now.

Ed, I wasn't equating Israel with Judaism. It's plain that there are Jews who are not Israeli citizens (although they could become so at the drop of a hat just by moving there), and it's plain there are Israeli citizens who are not Jews. So let's get that attempted slander out of the way first. I was not saying that Israel=Judaism. Nice try though. 9 out of 10 for effort, although 0 out of 10 for accuracy.

But Israel is a Jewish state. It was created FOR Jews (as Rig was so kind as to point out), and is run BY Jews. Why has Israel not annexed the occupied territories, as they had every right to do at the end of the 1967 war, if it was not because that would topple the Jewish majority in Israel? They are little by little de facto annexing the West Bank, but of course only bits that are exclusively inhabited by Jewish settlers. If the current rate of nibbling continues, though, they will soon have it all and the Palestinians will be pushed out of the Territory entirely. But maybe that's a subject for another thread.

As for ethnicity haven't you been following the conversation about DNA markers?

Judaism is not a "nation" -- Israel is a nation, and you've already chided me for equating it with Judaism. You want to eat your cake and have it, here.

Rig, why aren't Christians and Muslims drafted into the Israeli army, if Israel is a secular state where all men are equal? Answer: it's not a secular state where all men are equal. Christians and Muslims are second-class citizens. This is shown just by the fact they are not included in the "universal" draft. Sure, they can volunteer. But if Israel is really a "religion-blind" state, as Ed T assures me it is, then they wouldn't have to. They'd be inducted like their Jewish neighbours are. Conclusion: Israel is not a "religion-blind" state. Jews have special privilege.

I had never heard that the JNF doesn't sell but only rent land, and I stand corrected on that point. Also on the 6.5% of land allowed to be owned privately. Of course having a land trust called the Jewish National Fund is something of a giveaway -- this really isn't the secular state Ed wants to portray it as. You might as well argue that Turkey is really a secular state, kof kof.

Does this make me an anti-semite, because I am willing to face the truth that the state of Israel discriminates against its non-Jewish minority, and was founded as a homeland for the Jews? Whatever. Remember Humpty Dumpty paid words extra when he abused them.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 12:26 PM

"It shows no firing untill nearly 3 minutes after the soldiers landed, were themselves attacked and two abducted."

Keith - sigh, the only people who were armed were the soldiers

All the bodies of the passengers who were killed show a number of very close range bullet wounds

No shots were fired at the descending soldiers as the passengers did not have guns

The descending soldiers, according to one report I read, were unable to fire as they abseiled down as they were wearing protective gloves which made this impossible - this seems very likely
Nevertheless they were masked and armed to the teeth at 4 am or so in the morning - it is not surprising that they may have been assumed to have lethal intent bur, as is clearly demonstrated, despite having the opportunity to kill them when the first commandos were overcome by force of numbers - none were.


The official Israeli story as of June 3, 2010 argues that three soldiers were captured when they were unconscious. Of course such elite commandos couldn't be be taken captive by civilians (unless they are spun as armed terrorists 'with murder in their eyes' of course)

However Haaretz reports that three commandos "were nearly taken hostage".

The report continues Haaretz that the commandos then regained consciousness and "managed to rejoin their comrades."

ok so - "hard-core" Islamic militants captured commandos only because they were unconscious, but then they just managed to wake up and return to their heavily armed squad - so 'abducted not abducted?


The Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren has publicly called the humanitarian activists "terrorists – hired killers who came to murder soldiers, not to assist the residents of the Gaza Strip."

Let us be perfectly clear on this issue: If the goal of the activists was to "murder soldiers", they would be murdered, because the activists had at least 10 minutes (by the IDF's recollection of events, which should be treated with caution) in which they could have killed the captive soldiers with or without weapons.

That they didn't, despite the opportunity, speaks volumes about their true intentions.

Abbas Al Lawati who graduated from Concordia University's
political science department was working as a reporter for the Gulf News newspaper, based in the United Arab Emirates on board

Here is his report as he watched and filmed one of the detained soldiers being dragged below deck it does not ignore or gloss over the anger and fear of the attack on both sides


"I saw angry activists drag one of the Israeli soldiers down the stairs and punch him, I lost my journalistic objectivity and found myself urging the activist to stop hitting the soldier.

Seeing the anger in the activist's eyes, I thought that he would kill him. I had images of the wars that Israel has waged over its captive soldiers, and the number of people that have died as a result of them.
My thought was that if an Israeli soldier was to die on that ship, the entire flotilla would be bombed until it sank.

That was, of course, before I saw the bloodshed. The activists' anger was suddenly put in context when I saw a number of people carrying a dying man down the stairs.
His face was unrecognisable, covered in blood. He was apparently one of the first to go down, after an Israeli gun targeted the centre of his forehead from a helicopter, spilling his brains into the hands of another activist who was trying to look after him.

I took a few deep breaths and went back to get some footage on my tiny HD camera. Still indoors, I remained by the staircase where, by now, the organisers of the flotilla had pushed aside activists and forbade them to hurt the soldiers.

I took a few steps down to film the other captive soldier, struggling to keep my balance with so much blood under my feet. He stood in a corner being attended by two medics onboard, in shock, crying.

It was surreal. I knew that that soldier could destroy the entire flotilla, and thought I would get some close up footage of him. I took my camera as close as possible to his face and asked his name twice. He was too traumatised to answer. I could see fear of death in his eyes. He was petrified. Then I heard women screaming. "They are coming!"

This shocking but authentic sounding version of events could be proven or disproved if Israel were to release Al Lawati's footage,

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

From Anna Baltzer, who is one of my heroes...

http://annainpalestine.blogspot.com/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:15 PM

It is because it was a song from the Civil Rights Movement that I can't accept it to be bent to a sectarian support to a part that doesn't recognize at all civil rights, not even the idea of them, as Hamas regime. You are carrying the torch down a ditch. I'm from Italy.

On the contrary, the song is not being sung for Hamas. It is being sung for the people of Palestine. Don't forget, Israel would not exist today were it not for its own use of terrorism. And many of those terrorists still serve in Israel's government today. So to say we must punish the people of Gaza because of Hamas, or that we can't negotiate with Hamas because it has committed acts of terrorism is really the height of hypocrisy.

We Shall Overcome is a perfect song for this movement, although the Palestinians have some songs that are even better.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:18 PM

Keith, you said this:

A blockade is a method of warfare between belligerent states.

Ok. So please tell me who the belligerent states are in this context.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM

Just because you post alot (the record on this tread speaks for itself), does mot mean you are posting anything new....that hasn't been said alot by your compadres on the web.
This is a very strange thing to say considering that all of the news of recent events in the Mediterranean were new prior to about a week ago. When one posts "news" (which could be defined as "new information"), one is posting something new. If someone posts a link to "news" that has not been posted before, he or she is posting news that no one else has posted before, meaning that has not been posted by his or her compadres. That's how it works with "news". That's why we don't call it "olds".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

As I've written previously, the Italian group on the flotilla was no doubt formed by anti-semite. Please, go and visit their site, TerraSantaLibera, HolyLandFree, there is also a section in English.. The demonstrations in Italy, as usual when Israel is involved, have had several anti-semite traits.

Roberto, what evidence do you have that she writes for this site rather than the site finding her work elsewhere and publishing it in their site? What evidence do you have that she is even aware that her work appears in that site?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

South African Apartheid is a misleading comparison. I'm not ashamed to criticize them who propose a fairy-tale vision of Hamas democracy, as CarolC does.

Please show me where I have characterized democracy under Hamas in this way. If you can't, then we know that you are lying.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

"We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them. It does not prevent the daily arrival, via Israel, of between 100 and 120 trucks laden with foodstuffs, medical supplies and humanitarian goods of every kind. Humanity is not "in danger" in Gaza, and it is a lie to state that people are "dying of hunger" in the streets of Gaza City."

In light of this, we must conclude that Mr. Levy is lying, because we have seen the list of things that aren't allowed in and they include things like baby formula, antibiotics, incubators, school books, paper and pencils, chickens and other livestock, and other things that are in no way "materials needed to manufacture weapons", but in fact, are materials that are necessary to sustain life and a functioning society.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

We know that footage and photographs have been confiscated because two people were able to get some of their material out, one through hiding it in her underwear, and the other was able to restore some of it from a drive that the Israelis thought they had destroyed. In both cases, the material showed that the Israelis were lying.

We know two things: one, that there were several journalists on board the Mavi Marmara, and that they were documenting what was happening on the flotilla. I know this because I have seen a lot of what they were able to send electronically before their signal was cut off. The second thing we know is that almost none of the material that they were not able to send before the signal was cut off has returned home with the people to whom it belongs. We also know that the Israeli government has used some of it in a highly edited form, so that also proves that it exists.

So we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that the government of Israel is withholding information, and that every time any of the information that they are withholding is found and released, it supports the version of events given by the passengers, and it proves that the Israeli government is lying.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM

Hmmmm. Eight messages in a row from the same person. Is this a discussion, or an obsession?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:59 PM

The video shows, despite the hysterical narration, that the ship was not attacked at all. Two soldiers descended to the deck and were brutally set upon.
The hard evidence is Carol's video and those we have all seen of people landing blow after blow with metal bars.

Keith, it is not accurate to say that the video shows that the ship wasn't attacked. It would be more accurate to say that the video doesn't show any actual attack. We might have had access to the feed that would have showed the firing that occurred prior to the start of the video in question but for two things. One: the Israelis were firing on sleeping passengers, and two, the people who were doing the live feed had only just then been able to reestablish the feed after it was interrupted by the Israelis. Now why, I wonder, might the Israelis not have wanted the live feed to get out during that particular time period. Hmmm... maybe so we would not now have any videographic evidence of the shooting that occurred before the Israelis boarded the ship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:02 PM

Living rough in Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:04 PM

Joe, I was gone for several hours and there are many points that were made in my absence. I could lump all of my responses in the same post, but I don't have time to read all of the posts since my last one at the same time and then try to organize my responses all in one post.

Perhaps you can tell me what the difference is between putting all of my points in one long post, or putting them in separate posts. And perhaps you can tell me what the difference would be if I had the same number of posts but others had posted in between.

Your post looks like a personal attack to me, and an attempt to discredit what I am saying using smear tactics rather than responding to anything I have actually said. Maybe you really are working for the hasbara people as that guest said you were.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM

By the way, Joe, I notice more than 14 posts from Keith during the time I was not posting. So tell me what would be the difference between Keith posting more than 14 since my last post, but at longer intervals in between, and me posting only 8 with much shorter intervals in between. Wouldn't you say that 14 is more than 8 in the same time period? Are you suggesting that Keith has an even bigger obsession than me, or does your comment only apply to people who see things differently than you?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

Joe that was below the belt!

I have acknowledged and accepted the criticism from Ed that long posts are sometimes ineffective or even counter productive and I think it is only fair to support Carol's view that a number of separate points deserve separate posts.

Carol is by no means the only poster who has posted several posts one after the other - another immediately springs to mind!
However I did not see any such observation or accusation of 'obsession' in that instance.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM

That tactic, along with accusations of anti-Semitism, are what hasbaristas resort to in the absence of having any legitimate arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM

Joe was merely making plain what has been obvious in many forums over a long period of time. I used to judge my effectiveness by how many rat-a-tats I could get out of CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:45 PM

Would you apply that same standard to beardedbruce, robomatic? Or does his rapid fire posting not count because you agree with what he is saying?

Like I said... that tactic is used by people who have to rely on smear tactics because they don't have any legitimate arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

LOL

I judge the effectiveness of my arguments by the number of personal attacks and smears I get from people like Joe and robomatic in threads like this one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

Since my name came up...

I think CarolC was correct in posting replies to different posts as different entries- and have no problem with multiples from the same person.

In this case, IMHO CarolC is in the right.

(Bookmark this, as it will not be said often by me 8-{E)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM

"Listen to Ed T. He knows everything"

Thanks for that endorsement, mousethief,finally, I get some recognition around here, though OI am fairly sure all would not agree with your assessment, and go to length to prove you wrong....but, get used to that:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:00 PM

Carol, if the ship had been fired on before the start of the video, why was it not mentioned?
The "cannisters" from the boats were mentioned.
Why did they continue to stand filming under a bright light?
They turned it off when the shooting did start.
You just want to believe that the Israelis instigated the violence.
There is no reson why they should, and it has never happened before.

It has been mentioned. Numerous times. Right here in this thread, even. I have posted testimony from several people who said that sleeping passengers were fired on before any of the Israelis had boarded the ship. Others have said that the ship was fired on but they were not close enough to those who were being fired on to know that they were sleeping at the time.

I also know that there were times when they did film in the dark. One of them is on the video. I also saw them turn out the lights on the live feed I was watching during one of the other times when the signal was not being interrupted. And while the light was off, everyone got very quiet and crouched down low. Keep in mind, Keith, that there were many people, myself included, who were watching these events in real time, except for the times when the Israelis had cut off the signal. I saw things that you have not seen, like a woman shouting to the people on the boats, "Don't shoot! We are unarmed civilians!"

I am going by the evidence of my own eyes and ears. You are only going on the propaganda that has been disseminated by the Israeli government. I would say that means that it is you who are gullible and wanting to believe what you want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:08 PM

CaroleC (I like the French version) Take a breath....posting too often (in machine gun fashon) robs the brain of oxygen...it can get one light headed....and god knows where that will take the thread:)

People make reference to "Carol's video" Egad, was she there also....If so, I move aside (from knowing everything, about every issue, may I add) to her first hand observations of events that sorry day.

Anyway, here is another site to fuel debate, shoot down and frown upon....should keep muddyfolks busy while I cut my grass....darn stuff grows like weeds lately (come to think, it may be all weeds...I say that with caution, as I do not want to be branded anti-senecio).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM

"Hmmmm. Eight messages in a row from the same person. Is this a discussion, or an obsession? "
Please don't go down that road Joe - it's not the first time you've confused compassion with obsession.
Listen to Ed T. He knows everything.
Maybe - but he's not very good at verifying what he says.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:12 PM

Oops, I am getting the light headed disease myself....just talking about machine gun posting...and reaching the consummation of my last post, I forgot to add the site link..


http://www.thecourt.ca/2010/06/04/seizure-of-the-gaza-flotilla/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:17 PM

I stand to be corrected, thanks for the compassion, not the discussion, nor the obsession....not all of us are obsessively compassionate. You got me on that one....us folks that know everything deserve to slip up once and awhile....it encourages the naysayers, who are always looking for an opposite perspective and a comspiracy to feel "hard done" by.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:18 PM

CaroleC (I like the French version) Take a breath....posting too often (in machine gun fashon) robs the brain of oxygen...it can get one light headed....and god knows where that will take the thread:)

I notice it's only the hasbara people who like to use these kinds of smear tactics. Like I said, when one has no legitimate arguments...

:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:18 PM

Look at that....three in a row...Don't worry folks, the record is safe:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

Dammmm...Carole wrecked my hat trick....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

People make reference to "Carol's video" Egad, was she there also....If so, I move aside (from knowing everything, about every issue, may I add) to her first hand observations of events that sorry day.

I was not there. I was watching the live feed the whole time.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM

What do you know...can't let your guard down, around here. folks are sharp as a pin...when I was trying real hard to smear folks and know everything they come between me and my hat trick post'in record.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:28 PM

From your link, Ed -

At the most general, the applicable law is 'public international law' (PIL), which is the term for the law that primarily deals with interstate relations.

So tell me which states we are discussing in the context of the application of this law.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:30 PM

Sorry Carole, don't want to say much...in case it drives you to smearing language, eat'in popcorn on sofas, watching live feeds, or learning new hebrew words to post to impress the young'uns.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM

Just as I thought. You don't have any arguments. So be it. Just remember, I'm not the only person who can see your posts. Everyone else can see them, too.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:43 PM

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/?scp=1&sq=Lede

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

"You don't have any arguments"

Of course not, when one knows everything, what s the point in arguing? No real need for multiples here?

"I'm not the only person who can see your posts. Everyone else can see them, too"


Duh, you got me on that one, I never thought of that. Stupid me.

I thought all mudcat discussions could olly be seen by you and me?
I will never get used to the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Not at all hard to understand - elementary patriotism would explain it - "This is my country - it is where I belong, and I refuse to be driven into exile".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

Now, let's put that quote back into it's original context:


DonT, referring to Israel: "An oasis of fascism, racism, and discriminatory constraint, would probably be a more apposite description."

My goodness, what an absolutely horrible place that must be. Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Changes the meaning somewhat, wot?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM

A lawyer provides information from legal experts explaining how and why the attack on the flotilla was illegal...

http://theonlydemocracy.org/2010/06/links-and-video-about-the-gaza-freedom-flotilla/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:45 PM

This video shows Israeli terrorists kicking someone who is lying on the ground and then shooting him. The video says it's the young man who had US citizenship...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=604238508&v=wall&story_fbid=114967525214151#!/?ref=home

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:49 PM

Of course they would rather live where they are than anywhere else in the world. That's where they're from! But if you ask them whether they would prefer to remain there under the present regime, or if they would prefer it if there was a different government, you would likely get a very different answer. But nobody in Israel is ever going to ask them that question.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:05 PM

Changes the meaning somewhat, wot? ,/i>

Not at all. It increases respect for the courage and determination of Palestinians living in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM

Today the Talibans, in Afghanistan, hanged a child 7 years old as a spy. But our main concern is how Israel reacted to a provocation. Our We Shall Overcome is mobilized against Israel. A new atrocity. Only anti-sionism? Nothing to do with anti-semitism? There won't be a thread so many posts long for any other cause. That's our problem.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM

Carol,

The video from the following post:

From: CarolC - PM
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:45 PM

Is not accessible to non facebook users and probably not even accessible to those facebook users who arent associated with whoever posted it there.

You may need to provide a new link to the original source.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:40 PM

Roberto,

First, - you need to provide a link to that story.

Second, - if it is true then it is a terrible crimne and I utterly condemn it.

Third, - there are no mudcatters who will defend murder of a 7 year old by the taliban, so there will be no debate as everyone will agree.

So the discussion will end very quickly unlike this discussion where there are many who are defending the actions of the IDF.

Fourth, - The IDF are meant to be on 'our side'.

Who is our side?

The USA, the UK and Israel, alleged champions of democracy and human rights in the war against terror and alleged champions George Bushes new world order.

You will find multiple threads as long as this one about British and American atrocities for exactly the same reason.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Joe,

I join BB and others in supporting Carols multiple posts earlier.

As she states, she was responding to a multitude of different posts, therefore it was useful to post several times to address each one clearly.

In addition I am also surprised by the tone of your post. It doesn't address the topic being discussed and it doesn't seem to be the neutral observation of a moderator.

I hope that I am right in believing that it was not about poking the funny unpopular girl with a stick for your own and your friends enjoyment, or indeed about reminding her who is in charge.

She has very clearly and rationally defended her view on the subject being discussed. If there is an issue with this subject being discussed then that issue involves everyone on the thread and not just carol.

BB - You are indeed an honourable guy and I salute you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

"""We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them.""

Such total naivete, and lack of rational analysis.

I am not going to bother to repeat the catalogue of items which have been denied the residents of Gaza.

Suffice to say, they include foodstuffs which could only be classed as very long term weapons, which might, in thirty years or so, cause an outbreak of heart attacks.

One banned item is concrete, which is needed to rebuild the infrastructure totally destroyed by the Israelis' somewhat unusual brand of proportionate response. Unless somebody here knows something I don't, there are no effective concrete weapons.

So, you are wrong once again.

Do try to keep up. There are a number of reliable sources for the fact that the Israelis are blocking essential humanitarian aid, and that the residents of Gaza are being deprived of sufficient food (i.e. STARVED).

They don't want Israeli assistance. They want Israel back inside its legal borders, and its nose out of their affairs.

Then they can, and will, rebuild, and feed themselves.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:55 PM

Thanks, Lox.


Roberto, my tax dollars aren't funding the activities of the Taliban. In fact, my tax dollars are being used to fight the Taliban.

So, number one: I am not being made complicit in the activities of the Taliban as I am the activities of the government of Israel, and number two: focusing on what people do with my tax money is my responsibility and is something that I am able to do. If Israel doesn't want me to be working as hard as I can to get them to stop doing what they are doing with my tax money, they should stop taking my tax money and with it, making me complicit in their war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM

"BB - You are indeed an honourable guy and I salute you."

Don't usually agree with you but........ ditto

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:58 PM

""I find it hard to believe that IDF commandos would allow themselves to be clubbed into submission without firing a shot if they had weapons to hand.""

They certainly had hand guns, which were resonsible for the multiple bullet holes in their victims, many shot in the back, or back of the head.

This has already been established.

Now, it is also known that some of those hand guns were taken by the defenders. None of them were used on the soldiers, none of whom were in fact shot.

This does not gel with the idea of a number of fanatics being prsent with the goal of becoming martyrs. If there is one thing we should have learned by now, it is that fanatical martyrs take as many as possible of the enemy with them to the grave.

It still reads as state sponsored piracy and murder.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:16 PM

Here's the video (on YouTube) of the Israeli terrorists kicking and then shooting the passenger who is on the ground...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdA6jJ8dOZQ

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:21 PM

""So to say we must punish the people of Gaza because of Hamas, or that we can't negotiate with Hamas because it has committed acts of terrorism is really the height of hypocrisy.""

A very valid point Carol. Many of the terrorists who murdered British soldiers prior to and during 1948, ended up in powerful positions in the Israeli government.

Menachim Begin, ex prime minister of Israel, burned British soldiers in their tents.

It happened in many other places too, that ex terrorists became national leaders.

Archbishop Macharios
Jomo Kenyatta

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

""Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?""

And you can of course post the source survey which produced that statistic?...or did you conjure it out of thin air?

And you can state with authority, and supporting evidence, that the 77% don't have any issues with the way their country is governed, or with its treatment of their Palestinian brothers?

NO?....I THOUGHT NOT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:10 PM

I see Ed has discovered passive aggression. Read an instructional book, did we, or watch a video on YouTube?

Ah well, as Carol says, if you don't have a cogent case to present, resort to other tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:18 PM

"And you can of course post the source survey which produced that statistic?...or did you conjure it out of thin air?"

Do you use this forum only to air your anti-Israel rants and don't read other posts?
The source has been posted to this thread, I will leave it to you to do your homework.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:27 PM

The hasbara brigade has gone largely silent since I posted that video. I wonder if they're calling headquarters and asking for instructions.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

"Internet killed the hasbara star

by Adam Horowitz on June 8, 2010 · 86 comments

One of the most striking trends following the flotilla attack has been how quickly Israeli hasbara has been exposed and discredited by internet journalists. Robert Mackey has a post on the Times Lede blog highlighting some examples today - Max Blumenthal's reporting on the doctored IDF audio of the attack and Noam Sheizaf's work on Turkish photos of the Mavi Marmara attack which contradict IDF claims. To these two I would add Lia Tarachansky and Blumenthal's work disproving the IDF's claim that the flotilla was linked to Al Qaeda, Jared Malsin's work confirming the doctored audio, and Ali Abunimah, who has been in the lead on many of these stories and lately has been reconstructuing the path of the Mavi Marmara to show it was actually fleeing at the time of the Israeli attack. All of this has appeared on the internet and are helping to shape the story, despite the Israeli Foreign Ministry's best efforts.

These efforts are helping to fill a crucial void around the narrative of the attack, as Israel still refuses to share the entirety of the video and still footage it confiscated from flotilla passengers. Israel has released snippets of the footage which they believe support their version of events, apparently believing that by limiting access to the footage they could control the story. This has clearly not been the case. Instead they are on the defensive, busy issuing clarifications and apologies. The one "success" in their hasbara effort has been the racist "we are the world" knock off which really only confirms how absolutely tone deaf many Israelis are right now to feelings around the world. The fact that this embarrassment is viewed as a success in Israeli circles has been termed "Hasbara Derangement Syndrome" by Israeli blogger Didi Remez. They ended up having to apologize for that one as well even though Israeli spokesperson Mark Regev "thought it was funny."

It seems that Israeli hasbara is getting a bit tougher in the age of the internet. I mean, who's going to believe "a land without people, for a people without a land" when there are ten YouTube videos to prove you wrong?"

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/internet-killed-the-hasbara-star.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM

"I see Ed has discovered passive aggression. Read an instructional book, did we, or watch a video on YouTube?

Ah well, as Carol says, if you don't have a cogent case to present, resort to other tactics."

Speaking of tactics mousey, I see you are well versed in the ad hominem attack tactic. Can you say hypocrisy?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:32 PM

"bobad"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:36 AM

Lox. You can find the story from many other sources. I've also read it on the New York Times site.

Adnkronos International. Afghanistan: Taliban 'hang 7-year-old boy for spying'
Lashkargah, 9 June (AKI): Taliban fighters have hanged a seven-year-old boy, claiming he was passing information to foreign soldiers in the volatile southern province of Helmand, the governor's spokesman, Daud Ahmadi, told Pajhwok Afghan News.
The child's shocking murder took place in the Sarwan Qala area of Sangin district late on Tuesday. The boy, whose name was not immediately known, was abducted from the village of Heratyan, Ahmadi said.

CarolC. Now everything is clear. It was a matter of taxation. No taxation without representation, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:49 AM

What does this story about Afghanistan have to do with this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:01 AM

CarolC. Now everything is clear. It was a matter of taxation. No taxation without representation, I suppose.

No, Roberto. It's about complicity.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:44 AM

mousethief. It has to do with this thread because it shows a lack of proportion, we concentrate out attention on Israel more than any other Country in the world, we denounce so called atrocities when Israel is involved and pay poor attention to many real atrocities perpetrated by Countries and political entities that so often unite their voices to our voices to condemn Israel as the quintessence of evil in the world. We describe the world without Israel as a world in peace, peace at last, as does CarolC when she writes that Palestina without Isarel would be a tolerant and democratic State and that there is no reason not to trust Hamas: this is about complicity.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:22 AM

Carol, your new video is not as clear as the previous one.
There is clearly a fight. It is not clear that a weapon was fired.
Here is a clear video of the landings.
At around 53 seconds, after numerous clubbings that would be fatal but for helmets, after a soldier is thrown to a lower deck, notice the soldier to the right of the picture armed only with a paint ball gun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM

Here is footage of an Israeli boat before the landings.
Who would you say is attacking who?
How much incoming fire is there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24&feature=channel

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM

Roberto,

Thank you for the reference.

Do you have a response to the rest of my post?


In addition, you stated:

"We describe the world without Israel as a world in peace, peace at last,"

Who says this and where do they say it?

"CarolC when she writes that Palestina without Isarel would be a tolerant and democratic State"

Where has Carol written this?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM

These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people"

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:41 AM

From The Irish Times this morning.
I was struck by the fact that an Israeli 'extreme right' isn't just a Hamas invention
Jim Carroll

WHERE BURNED AND BULLDOZED OLIVE TREES ARE MOURNED
MICHAEL JANSEN
Nablus,
West Bank
A GROUP OF RABBIS SEEK TO SHOW THAT JUDAISM SHOULD NOT BE EQUATED WITH THE EXTREME RIGHT
OUR minibus speeds past the dusty, deserted Huwara checkpoint, south of the northern West Bank city of Nablus. Huwara used to be a major obstacle, jammed with cars and people; today neither a vehicle nor a person is in sight. The road between Ramallah, the Palestinian Authority's administrative centre, and Nablus is open, except when Israeli troops decide to mount a flying checkpoint.
We turn east and make for the rolling hills clad in olive trees, their trunks dark and twisted, leaves green and silver. Most of the trees are young, perhaps half a century old, but here and there stands an ancient tree, planted hundreds of years ago, its trunk hollow, its branches bowed. Palestinians compare themselves to the rooted and steadfast olive trees. When settlers burn or bulldoze them, Palestinians mourn olives as family members.
These sunny, apparently quiet hills are a theatre of war.
"Palestinian farmers have a lot of trouble with settlers in this area," observes Rabbis for Human Rights director Arik Ascherman.
"We help the farmers plough their fields and pick their olives. Our legal department deals with expropriations. We also rebuild [Palestinian] homes that have been demolished and plant olive trees. [The fact that] we are rabbis sends a message [to the Palestinians] that they should not equate [the Jewish] religion with the violent extreme right" in Israel, Ascherman says.
He points out that after the Oslo accord was signed in 1993, Israel accelerated settlement construction. While Palestinians expected that the land Israel conquered in 1967 would be theirs, the Israelis planned to negotiate over this land and sought to lay claim to as much of it as possible. After the second intifada erupted in 2000, Israelis tried to "stop Palestinians from working their land so that after some years this could be claimed by settlers", he says.
"Ours is the only rabbinic organisation in Israel dedicated exclusively to human rights. It was established in 1988, during the first [Palestinian] intifada... For the past seven or eight years Trocaire has supported our programmes."
We wait in the countryside for Jamal, who bounces along the road on an elderly red tractor. "His own tractor was trashed by settlers," asserts Ascherman, who has come to work out with Jamal when to send volunteers to accompany him when he ploughs two large fields covered in golden grasses which nod in the breeze.
By law Palestinians should have access to their land and the army is supposed to protect them, but since settlers generally have a free hand, these rabbis act as human shields.
Upper Yanoun is a hillside hamlet with 200 inhabitants belonging to the same clan.
"In 2002 settlers came in the middle of the night and expelled the villagers," says Ascherman
"The settlers harass the villagers, burn their olives and wheat fields. The settlers enter the village constantly."
After coffee with Rashed, the clan leader, we proceed to a house occupied by four Ecumenical Accompaniers who are based here to deter attacks and report them to the UN. Pat Devlin from the UK says: "A group of 19 settlers came into the village, took the cover off the well, climbed down and swam in it. The army said they were 'brave youth'... They are taking land [that] villagers farm and use for grazing, driving down their capacity to earn an income," she states.
Back on the flat on a narrow road running between the fields, we spot a herd of gazelle foraging in the tall grass.
"Palestinians say the only good thing about the settlers is they have stopped us from eating all the gazelle," remarks Ascherman

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM

Roberto, don't get sucked into that game, remember what Humpty Dumpty said; "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:21 AM

Thank you Roberto.

Providing examples is helpful, answers the question and clarifies your position for anyone reading the thread.

Bobad would do well to take note.


I am also curious to be directed to the actual posts that each quote came from so that I may see them in context.


And I look forward to seeing Carols response.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM

bobad, I'd appreciate if you would explain to me where you think I made words say more or something different than they actually mean.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:36 AM

4th June 11.24 AM

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM

That last for Lox not Roberto.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:40 AM

Roberto, You said:

"These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to"

I used my 'Find' button on my web browser to look for the two quotes you have attributed to carol as having been made in this thread.

It found both quotes.

But only one of them in a previous post by Carol, the other was only in a previous post by you.

The one which exists only in your posts is: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people".

Which means that Carol can't have said that in this thread.

___________

The other quote ...

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"

... didn't read as Carols personal opinion of what might happen, but appeared to be her report of the likely viewpoint of Palestinians with whom she is in contact, as the whole post began with the following ...

"number6, from all of the information I have, and I have a lot of information from people in Palestine ... etc ..."


I am sure Carol will clarify her position on this when she comes back online.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:45 AM

Lox, CarolC writes "There is no reason not to trust Hamas" in her post 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

Lox, while we are discussing old posts, you posted this.

"The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces,"

This is BS. The IDF attacked the ship. The people on board defended themselves.

Please look at the clips I posted today, and withdraw.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:14 AM

"The IDF attacked the ship."

In what way is this not true?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:20 AM

Keith, your videos both show the passengers of a ship fighting off a boarding party.

That is called defence.

If they had boarded the Israeli boats that would be called aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:28 AM

Roberto, I have sent you a message via PM.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:38 AM

The IDF boarded.
That is not an attack.
It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses.
The IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence.
They endured nearly 3 minutes before a round was fired.
That shows unusual restraint.
The IDF did not attack, they merely landed.
Each in turn was met with extreme violence.
They were attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:49 AM

"It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses."

I see?

on buses eh?

I can't remember the last time I was on a privately chartered bus that was stormed by soldiers against the will of the passengers on board ...

... It clearly happens to you a lot though.


Lets pretend for the sake of this discussion that you never made such a ... comment.


OK - Its a regular occurrence at sea ... for soldiers to abseil onto civilian ships in international waters ...

nope ... still not sounding very regular to me ...


In fact this is a pretty outstanding affair.

That must be why its in the news.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

Roberto,

Thanks again.

I have to confess that I too am sceptical about the idea that Hamas are to be trusted.

But as Gerald Kaufman also said, "they are the only game in town", meaning that if there are to be negotiations, Hamas can't be ignored.

However, I respect Carols assessment on the basis that Hamas, for all their ugly menace, are at least transparent about their intentions.

Their official line is more hardline than their behind the scenes stuff.

Their behind the scenes stuff is more about deal making and their on the sleeve stuff is about war.


I haven't engaged in the debates about who broke what ceasefires first the way that other mudcatters have, but I can say that Carol is pretty honest and advocates a clear, consistent and well supported view, as does her #1 opponent Bearded Bruce.



I do note however that while Israels official line is that they seek a fair and peaceful resolution, their unofficial backroom stuff seems to be about building more controversial settlements and about slandering their opponents.


I note Bobads public announcement that he has sent you a personal message, something that you will already know since you will have received it on your page, thus rendering his public notification of it obsolete.


I don't know what the subject of it is, but I can't help speculating that it involves a bit of back room character assassination.


Well once you have been given 'the lowdown' on how 'they' operate and the tactics 'they' use, feel welcome to post freely and expresss your opinion on the mudcat just as I do, Bobad does and Carol does without restriction.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM

The fairy tale
"IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence."
The facts.
"Those found on board ship: stun grenade, catapult, metal bar, knife, broken bottle.
Those in posession of the pirates: paintball gun, tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine guns, Glock handguns."
Now - who was attacked and who did the attacking?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM

We describe the world without Israel as a world in peace, peace at last, as does CarolC when she writes that Palestina without Isarel would be a tolerant and democratic State and that there is no reason not to trust Hamas: this is about complicity.

Roberto, there is not a chance in hell that Hamas would be ruling Palestine/Israel if it were a state for all of its citizens and citizenship is not conditional on religion or ethnicity. And this is why I am not concerned about Hamas when I say that Israel should be a country for all of its citizens and that citizenship should not be conditional on any religion or ethnicity.

Hamas didn't even get a majority of the vote among Palestinians. They only got a plurality. There no way that it would get a majority of the vote if all of the people who in what is now Israel would also be voting.

You just keep framing it as if I believe that Hamas would be ruling the country because your own racism doesn't allow you to tolerate the idea of Israel being a country for all of its citizens and for citizenship not to be conditional on one's religion or ethnicity.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM

Keith, the paint ball pellets were filled with glass fragments. The people who were hit with the paint pellets sustained severe soft tissue injuries. And you can quite clearly see the guy in the last video I posted firing his gun. You can see the recoil. And the passenger in question did end up dead, with several bullets in his chest and head. You can also quite clearly see the two Israelis kicking someone who was on the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM

Here is footage of an Israeli boat before the landings.
Who would you say is attacking who?
How much incoming fire is there?

First of all, there is no way to know that this footage was taken before the Israelis boarded. This video doesn't show any of that. You are taking the Israeli government's word that it happened that way with no evidence to back it up. Secondly, the stun grenade is being thrown back to the Israeli boat. The only reason anyone on the Mavi Marmara had any stun grenades at all is because the Isralis fired them at the Mavi Marmara in the first place. So that answers your question of who is attacking whom.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:36 AM

Apart from the eye-witness and press reports after the boarding which carried the above information, there's a certain crassness in the suggestion that the Israeli commanders (of one of the most belligerantly aggressive armies in the world) would send in troops armed only with paint-ball guns.
Tell us you're 'avin' a larf Keef!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:41 AM

These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people"

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"

Roberto, I was answering a question from someone else who phrased it in that way. Maybe it was you. I do not expect Israel to be "handed to the Palestinians". I expect it to simply join Palestine and become a state for all of its citizens with citizenship not being conditional upon anyone's religion or ethnicity. The fact that you are glomming on to this one answer to someone else's question while ignoring all of the times that I have stated it as it is stated above is extremely dishonest, and is further evidence that it's your own racism that is preventing you from being able to entertain the possibility of Palestinians being able to have equal rights in Palestine/Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:49 AM

Lox, CarolC writes "There is no reason not to trust Hamas" in her post 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM.

I stand by this. But it has nothing whatever to do with what I expect to happen when the present regime in Israel is dismantled.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:56 AM

The IDF boarded.
That is not an attack.
It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses.

The Israelis did not have permission to board. It is highly illegal and considered an attack in maritime law to board anyone's vessel without permission, especially if the people on board are making it very clear that they do not want to be boarded.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area. I think we have no rights to play with those people making experiments. I'm aware that many of the supporters of the one state solution are not dreamers, but the one state they have in mind is that pursued for many decades by the PLO and recently by Hamas, symbolized by the maps that show no Israel, but only Palestine all over that area. There is also a right wing in Israel whose aim is to rule the whole area (Eretz Israel). In my opinion, the two states solution has no alternative if we also want to stop the killings. I'm not sure for democracy, because it is not in Hamas culture, let's hope for Fatah's evolutions (in the times of Arafat, there was no democracy where he ruled). It is not my racism, to use CarolC's gratuitous insult, that makes me think the one state solution to be a mask for a new version of the final solution, but normal sense of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:03 AM

I note Bobads public announcement that he has sent you a personal message, something that you will already know since you will have received it on your page, thus rendering his public notification of it obsolete.

I don't know what the subject of it is, but I can't help speculating that it involves a bit of back room character assassination.

My guess would be that they're recruiting him for the hasbara brigade; getting him officially in the loop.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:11 AM

CarolC, I see you can't debate without insulting. I send back to you your parcels with "racism" in it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:16 AM

It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area.

It is difficult for me to think that a person with even less than normal ability to perceive reality would actually think that a state that artificially maintains a majority of one particular religion or ethnicity can in any way be described as a "democracy" or that it could ever be a peaceful arrangement.

I think we have no rights to play with those people making experiments.

I am not doing that. I am merely predicting what is going to happen. Just the way it happened in South Africa. And it certainly is appropriate to make such comparisons. Even South Africans say what exists right now in Palestine/Israel is apartheid, and many of them say it is far worse than the apartheid that was experienced in South Africa.

I'm aware that many of the supporters of the one state solution are not dreamers, but the one state they have in mind is that pursued for many decades by the PLO and recently by Hamas, symbolized by the maps that show no Israel, but only Palestine all over that area.

You are not in a position to tell me what I have in mind and what I don't have in mind. What I have in mind is a country like all of the countries in the West, in which everyone has equal rights and citizenship is not dependent upon anyone's religion or ethnicity.

It is not my racism, to use CarolC's gratuitous insult, that makes me think the one state solution to be a mask for a new version of the final solution, but normal sense of reality.

You keep accusing people of anti-Semitism, as you are doing just above. You're the one who has started the gratuitous attacks. If you can't tolerate the idea of a state in which Jews do not artificially maintain a permanent majority and in which everyone has exactly the same rights and citizenship is not in any way tied to anyone's religion or ethnicity, then you are a racist.

And you even are insinuating that because I believe that everyone in Palestine/Israel should have equal rights, that means I am advocating for all Jews to be killed. This is not only a specious lie, it is also quite an insane way to interpret what I have said.

I believe in equal rights for all. I don't believe anyone's rights should be dependent upon which religion or ethnic group they belong to. You think that some groups should be privileged over other groups and some should be denied citizenship if they don't belong to the correct group. This makes you not only a racist, but also a supremacist.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:17 AM

CarolC, I see you can't debate without insulting. I send back to you your parcels with "racism" in it.

Roberto, you're the one who started the insults when you started flinging around the old "anti-Semite" canard.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM

Lox, the navies of the world do carry out boarding operations every day.
They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth.
The IDF has boarded many vessels
This one made the news because of the violence.
The video shows who started it.
The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.
Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.
I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks.
It is silly to suggest they were thrown up from the boat.
Carol, the video of the boat must have been before the boarding.
We have footage of the boarding . No boats are alongside.
After 3 minutes the firing started and the demonstrators were ordered by their commander to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM

Roberto, If you look back through the mudcats extensive discussions on Israel, I don't think you will find any advocates of a one state solution.

Certainly as far as I am aware, all the main players in the debate on this thread advocate a two state solution.

I personally believe the solution is for Israel to accept that they should withdraw to within the pre 1967 borders.

Though I understand the fear of Hamas.

As I understand it, most of the debate on here is about whether or not this solution would work, whether there is a historical justification for those borders as opposed to oters, and whether or not The Israelis or the palestinians are sincere in their wish to find a solution and stick to it once it has been found.


There is no innocent party in modern day Israel/Palestine.


Palestinians see Israel annexng more land in the form of settlements and humiliating them for seemingly gratuitous reasons.

Israelis see Palestinians as being full of Hate for Jews and wanting to destroy Israel.


2 solutions would be for Israel to stop expanding and for Palestinian extremists to stop firing rockets into Israel.


But who will take the first step?


Well - Israel is meant to be on our team - the allies - and they are funded by Britisjh and American Tax dollars and pounds which makes Me complicit in their actions if I don't publicly disagree.

Hamas do not claim to represent me or my ideology nor do they receive any funding from me.

So I know where the focus of my disssatisfaction has to be.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM

Sorry, I left out to whom I'm replying: CarolC.

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM

"They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth."

Within their own jurisdiction.

"The IDF has boarded many vessels"

Yes.

"This one made the news because of the violence."

The others were extremely violent too - its just that noone was killed with live ammo.

"The video shows who started it."

Yes - the soldiers who committed a hostile act by boarding it in international waters armed to the teeth.

"Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands."

Ever been shot with a paintball?

What about witht the right protective gear?

What about if it has glass in it?

"I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol."

Are you saying that the IDF got it wrong about that too?

I'll be back

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM

Lox, the navies of the world do carry out boarding operations every day.
They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth.
The IDF has boarded many vessels
This one made the news because of the violence.

Are you saying this is done all the time in international waters?

The video shows who started it.
The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.

You are not in a position to say this because you do not have video that shows what happened before the scene to which you are referring. You only have an absence of video confirming the witness testimony and the announcement of wounded passengers prior to the Israelis boarding the ship. But we do have quite a lot of witness testimony as well as the announcement of wounded passengers before the ship was boarded.

Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.

If someone doesn't want to be hit with a metal bar, all they have to do is not stand in range of it. The range of a metal bar is only a few feet. This is not the case with a paint pellet filled with glass that is fired at your face by someone who is standing a safe distance away from you. It's a lot harder to avoid being hit with a metal bar than it is to avoid being hit with a paint pellet filled with glass.

I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks.

I note the word "believe" in that statement, Keith. So you admit that you are only going on belief rather than on evidence.

It is silly to suggest they were thrown up from the boat.

They were not thrown up from the boat. They were fired from the boat.

Carol, the video of the boat must have been before the boarding.
We have footage of the boarding . No boats are alongside.

You've got to be kidding me. There were many boats along side of all of the ships the whole time. You have no evidence that that video was taken before the boarding. You're just going on belief. But it really doesn't matter whether it was or not. We have witness testimony and evidence that backs it up that the Israelis attacked the ship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.

Clearly this is not true, Roberto. You have been working very hard to paint me as an anti-Semite.

I admit that there are ideas that are different from mine that are just as legitimate. But discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:49 AM

I got this backwards so I will rephrase:

It's a lot easier to avoid being hit with a metal bar than it is to avoid being hit with a paint pellet filled with glass.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:57 AM

CarolC writes: discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas. I agree, these are not my ideas. Avoid inventing ghosts.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:05 AM

CarolC writes: discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas. I agree, these are not my ideas. Avoid inventing ghosts.

This is what exists in Israel now and what Israel is enforcing in occupied Palestine, and what you defend when you defend the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oSmSqZce3k

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM

CarolC, I don't defend the status quo but I support a two states solution, you don't know what else to invent to deny my right to express my point of view without your nasty insults about what I consider a tragedy and you seem to believe a tale with goodies against villains.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM

CarolC, I don't defend the status quo but I support a two states solution, you don't know what else to invent to deny my right to express my point of view without your nasty insults about what I consider a tragedy and you seem to believe a tale with goodies against villains.

Roberto, you started the nasty insults when you started committing character assassination against people here in this thread by accusing them of anti-Semitism. If you don't like getting what you dish out, don't dish it out.

I have no problem with a two state solution, as long as neither state tries to maintain any artificial majorities based on religion or ethnicity. But whether or not I support this is irrelevant because it's just not going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM

CarolC, I've accused of Anti-Semitism characters that fully deserve this charge, such as the italian group on board the flottilla, linked with a site full of anti-semite trash and to those "historians" that say that the holocaust never happenend. I expected this fact to mean something for a person with an acute sensibility against racism as you declare to be, but I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:45 AM

"The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.
Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.
I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks."
Paintball guns - fireworks - what has the Israeli army come to?
Monty Python would have a field day!
You have a list of the weapons carried by the Israeli Army and you have their track record for brutality - on what grounds do you "don't believe" (apart from the logic of an army sending in unarmed troops - that is)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

CarolC, I've accused of Anti-Semitism characters that fully deserve this charge, such as the italian group on board the flottilla, linked with a site full of anti-semite trash and to those "historians" that say that the holocaust never happenend. I expected this fact to mean something for a person with an acute sensibility against racism as you declare to be, but I was wrong.

I asked you to show me evidence that the woman whose writings appear on the page of the group you are saying is anti-Semitic even knows that her writing has appeared there. You have not answered my request. She writes for a different organization than the one that you are saying is anti-Semitic. So far, I have not seen any evidence that she actually writes for the anti-Semitic group or that she is even aware that her material appears on their pages or if she is aware of it, that she approves of it. Or that she is in any way in sympathy with their agenda or beliefs. And I have been in consultation with someone in Italy and asked this person to see if they could see any evidence of it, and they could not. So if you have any evidence that the woman whose writing you are talking about has knowledge that her writing appears on the website of an anti-Semitic group, or that she approves of or is in sympathy with what they say and do, please present it here now.

The United States Constitution regularly appears on neo-Nazi hate sites here in the US. That doesn't make the United States Constitution a neo-Nazi hate document.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM

I am in a position to say who started it (the violence) because we see the first soldier set upon while still on the rope and clubbed to the deck.

All of the post from which this quote comes, Keith, is speculation. And you are not in a position to say who started it because you do not know what happened before that first Israeli boarded the ship.

We do have evidence that the Israelis opened fire first. You have nothing except what the government of Israel has said, and it has already been proven that quite a lot of what they have said about what happened is lies. So you are choosing to believe proven liars with no evidence to back it up. That's fine, just don't try to pretend that you are doing anything other than that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM

"Jim, you can see the soldiers with paintball guns."
You implied that the only weapons that the soldiers had were paint-ball guns - this in not true.
"The IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence."
The weapons carried were as I described - they don't send soldiers in with paintball guns and fireworks.
You seems to be confusing all this with a Sealed Knot event.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

"Yes I have been hit with one.
"Serious soft tissue damage" is hype for a nasty bruise."

Ok then - now imagine that it contains glass and has been fired into your face.

What kind of superficial bruising woould that do to a man?



Hey Keith - Here's a link to a Stun Grenade explosion.

Utterly Stunned

A flash and a bang - a bit like the clip you proviided.

But where did it come from?

Oh yes - Al Jazeeras reporter informed us that there were stun grenades being fired onto the ship.

So that is consistent with your video.

The reporters credibility is STILL intact.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:27 PM

"I am in a position to say who started it (the violence) because we see the first soldier set upon while still on the rope and clubbed to the deck."

No you aren't because you are unable to refute whether bullets, rubber or live, or stun grenades were fired at the ship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM

A flotilla of 9 ships with 800 passengers is preparing to head for Gaza soon.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

Ships can and are boarded in international waters.
Many navies are stopping and searching suspected pirates in the Indian Ocean right now, without asking their permission.

Are these ships sailing under the flag of any country?


Remember that arms ship from N Korea a couple of years ago.

The UN authorized the boarding of that ship. And this is what makes it illegal for Israel to board the ships of the flotilla without permission. In order for a blockade to be legal, it must first be approved by the UN Security Council. Israel's blockade of Gaza has not been approved by the UN Security Council. So just the act of boarding the ships of the flotilla in international waters (or even in Gazan waters had it taken place there) was an illegal attack under international law, and the people on the ships being boarded (ships sailing under the flags of several countries, making the ships the sovereign territory of those countries) had the right under international law to defend themselves and their ships and to do whatever it would take to prevent their ships from being boarded.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:58 PM

CarolC: TerraSantaLibera (http://www.terrasantalibera.org) is a site where you can often read articles by Angela Lano, together with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion; where they recommend books such as Il Martirio di Padre Tommaso per mano Giudaica (The martyrdom of Father Thomas at a Jewish hand); with medieval texts against the Jews; articles against the abortion, equalized to a murder; Christian crosses etc.

Angela Lano is also the Director of infopal.it. Mariano Mingarelli, leader of infopal.it since its foundation, a very known exponent of the organizations of friendship between Italy and the Palestinian people, resigned from his position as President of infopal.it a few days before the story of the Gaza flotilla stating that too many anti-Semite were in the organization and that he didn't want his name to stay alongside with theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM

Antisemitism on the Mudcat?

Note—occasionally I do not qualify the term Mudcat or Mudcatter to indicate that I am only referring to those folks who actually have made the statements here paraphrased. I'm aware that some all those making ant-Israel statements have not expressed every of those sentiments. But the constant use of 'many' or 'some' would necessarily muddle already difficult syntax. My analysis is based on the present thread, and the various similar threads over the past seven or eight years. I am also aware that a few posters have tried to defend Israel in whole or part on a post by post basis (I admire the Quixotic adventure)-JotSC

For over week I've been reading the posts of the usual anti-Israel crowd on the Mudcat. They stress they are only critical of Israel, and piously note they are not anti-Jewish, or God forbid, anti-Semitic. It has even been said that nothing written at this thread is ant-Semitic. Some take care to tell us that we shouldn't vent our opprobrium on Jews as a group...that would wrong. Yes it would be wrong, but mouthing platitudes arem't enough to remove the stench of anti-Semitism which runs through the thread. And worse, many of the same folks who here claim they 'are not anti-Semitic' bemoan the deserved condemnation and resultant firing and retirement of Helen Thomas, whose comments were classic anti-Semitic remarks.
On the 'Cat, Israelis, and only Israelis are are blamed for the violence on the Turkish ship—indeed for all violence between Palestineans and Israelis. While there will be a lot of hand-wringing and interpretation about the exact sequence of events, there, it is instructive to note that no violence took place on any of the other six blockade runners. An honest assessment might consider that something different by the blockade runners occurred on that ship that led to deaths and injuries. But whatever happened, the proximate cause was trying to run the blockade.

As a result of the incident, there is renewed call, here, to deligitimize Israel as a nation, and certainly as a Jewish state. There have been no calls for doing away with North Korea, which periodically shoots down South Korean aircraft, fires on and sinks South Korean vessels, and kidnaps South Korean soldiers or citizens...to say nothing of U S. journalists. There has been no call to deligitimize Somalia for for international piracy, or Sudan for the genocide in Darfur. There was no call to deligitimize Germany for trying to take over Europe, and for initiating World War II. There has never been a call to deligitimize any of the European colonial powers which raped the people and resources of various regions of the world they gathered unto themselves. There are hundreds more examples I could mention, all far worse than anything Israel is alleged to be doing to Palestineans...but only Israel is singled out as needing to be excised from the world.

Israel is said to be undemocratic because it is a Jewish State. This is a straw man...there are no democratic Muslim states if one uses that same criterion which is used to castigate Israel. But there is no call to deligitimize them. Only Israel, the Jewish state!
It is said on Mudcat, that "most Israeli archaeologists and historians" assert that that European Jews have no connection to the Jews of the Near East or to Palestine (as Judea/Israel) itself. First, there only a bare minority (perhaps three or four) question that, and even they don't go so far as to be absolutist about it. Recent archaeological discoveries found in the Holy Land, Egypt and the generalized Middle East, tend to support many aspects of the Jewish history. Second, a simple Google search will find scores of articles which show evidence that Ashkenazi (European) Jews possess genetic and DNA material connecting them to ancient Israel. This also holds for Indian and Chinese Jews. There has been discussion of the Khazars and other European group groups which may have converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages, plus or minus, as proof that European Jews have no connection to Israel. Judaism considers that every convert to Judaism is the same as if s/he had actually been at Sinai. So by blood or by tradition all Jews have a connection to Israel. This is not unlike America (at least before the days of hyphenated Americans); naturalized citizens have every right and obligation, and are part of the history of America, just as same as natural born citizens. The only exception is the ban against becoming President.
The simple fact is that Muslim Arabs do not want a Zionist or Jewish entity within their region. And neither do many who post here. No matter what concessions, Israel has made, from repatriation of prisoners, to the total dismantling of Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip, the reciprocal event has been a rocket attack or Intifada most often. But only Israel is blamed for violence!

Several have called for a single state solution for a joint of Israel/Palestine, with absolute equality as between Jews and Palestineans. The modern vision of Israel as a Jewish homeland goes back to earliest Zionism, and was ratified by the League of Nations and the British Mandate (which none-the-less lopped off about 70% of the Mandate to create the Kingdom of Trans-Jordan about 1923). The United Nations created Israel, as well as India, Pakistan, and several other countries subsequent to World War II. While Israel is basically a democracy, it is not exactly congruent to, say, the United States. It was created explicitly to be a homeland for Jews... those already there, and those who wished to immigrate from where ever. Israel is not a theocracy by any stretch of the imagination, anymore than the United States was a theocracy for have Sunday Blue Laws. It is true that some groups would like to see more Bible-based laws enforced, but that has no not occurred. Mudcatters have a problem with the thought of that happening, but have no problem with a score or more of countries which are Islamic Republics and dictatorships which lean heavily on Shaaria Law. Several of those countries are creating far more worldwide problems than Israel has ever done or could ever do to Palestineans, but there is no call to dismantle Iraq, Iran etc. Only Israel! The so-called single state solution would, within a generation or two, dismantle the work of both the League of Nations and the United Nations, and destroy the concept of a Jewish Homeland. Of course, that could even come more quickly if a Grand Mufti or Imam should declare a pogrom (Jihad) against Jewish citizenry.

So, I have reached the following conclusions:
--If you blame Israel and only Israel (and throw in the USA) for the ills of Palestineans or the Middle East,
--If you consistently claim Israel is not a democratic country,
--If you deny the attachment of the Jewish people to ancient Israel,
--If you deny the attachment of Diaspora Jews to the population of ancient Jews,
--If you deny the right of the United Nations to ordain Israel, and only Israel among all the countries created since World War II,
--If you think Israel has forfeited the right to be a Jewish nation,
--If you support a 'single state' solution to end the Israel/Arab confict,
--Then claiming you are not anti-Semitic does not make it so. It just makes you un-self aware at best, or a dissembler at worst.

John on the Sunset Coast

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM

CarolC: TerraSantaLibera (http://www.terrasantalibera.org) is a site where you can often read articles by Angela Lano, together with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion; where they recommend books such as Il Martirio di Padre Tommaso per mano Giudaica (The martyrdom of Father Thomas at a Jewish hand); with medieval texts against the Jews; articles against the abortion, equalized to a murder; Christian crosses etc.

Yes, Roberto. I already have seen that site, and I have seen the protocols there and I have seen the presence of some of her writing there. Now please show me some evidence that she is a aware of her writings appearing on that site, or that if she is aware of it, that she approved of it, or that she shares any of their ideology or beliefs. I have not seen any of that evidence yet.


Angela Lano is also the Director of infopal.it.

This is the only organization that I have seen her acknowledge being a part of. If you can produce any evidence that she was also actively participating in, and in agreement with the TerraSantaLibera organization, please present it here. I have repeatedly asked you to present these evidences. You have consistently failed to do so. I have not condemned Ms. Lano yet because you are refusing to provide evidence that I should. When you provide evidence that she is sympathetic with anti-Semites, or that she is an anti-Semite herself, then I will condemn her anti-Semitism. But not before that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

John,

You are approaching this from a logical point, based on reality. This is where you are wrong: Many here have no interest in reality, just their own view ( shall I say propaganda) about what THEY think should have happened.

I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinans to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews.

And I doubt many have read the 1921 and 1923 treaties ( which set the last boundries that the Arab states accepted) that they ignore in asking for the 1967 boundries, which the Arab nations did not accept.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

John on the Sunset Coast, I would characterize you as being supremacist on the basis that you support privileging one ethnic/religious group over all others in Israel. So you're really not in a position to be pointing fingers at others for any reason. And any accusations of anti-Semitism from you are not credible and are hypocritical.

If you don't support equal rights for everyone, and if you support one set of rules for one religion/ethnicity, and another set of rules for other religions/ethnicities, you are a racists and a supremacist.

It is not anti-Semitic for those of us who are paying for what Israel is doing to focus on that. And you are lying when you say that we focus on Israel to the exclusion of all other countries who are also committing human rights abuses. This thread is about Israel. Those of us who are criticizing Israel in this thread also criticize other governments in other threads. You need to paint us as anti-Semites because you are trying to defend the indefensible, and you are supporting racism and supremacism.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM

By the way, more and more video is being released by people who were able to smuggle it out undetected.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

CarolC: Angela Lano has her stuff on an anti-semite site against her will? Is the director of another site that its founder leaves after a lifetime because it has become full of too many anti-semite and has nothing to do with that? Your faith is too strong (and blind).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM

CarolC: Angela Lano has her stuff on an anti-semite site against her will? Is the director of another site that its founder leaves after a lifetime because it has become full of too many anti-semite and has nothing to do with that? Your faith is too strong (and blind).

Hate sites use material without permission from the authors all the time. You said he left because of anti-Semitism. I want to see some evidence of that before I form a judgment, and if so, I also want to see evidence that Ms. Lano is one of the people he objected to.

I am not operating on faith at all in this context. I have not formed a judgment one way or another. But I have seen far too many specious and venal accusations of anti-Semitism (some of them even leveled at me) being used to falsely discredit people and silence dissent, to accept such accusations without evidence. You show me the evidence and I will join you in your condemnations of Ms. Lano. Until then, I refuse to form any judgments one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinans to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews.

beardedbruce, you have repeatedly asked me if I support the right of Jews to return to where they were fleeing from during war, and I have repeatedly said that I do. So if you are including me in this blanket statement, you are lying.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM

So Jews driven out in 79CE get to go back to Israel?

Yes or no:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM

I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinians to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews.

Who on earth is supposed to have said that, anyway?

After 2,000 years that right of return is somewhat reduced, as it would be for any of us, in respect of wherever it was our ancestors were living at that time.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM

In this video, you can hear shots coming from the boats, and you can hear explosions and impacts coming from the helicopter before the Israels have descended and while they are descending. This is a short clip from an hour long video that was smuggled out by one of the passengers. She is releasing the rest of the video at the UN today...

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2010/6/10/the_images_they_didnt_want_seen_video_and_photographs_from_on_board_the_mavi_marmara

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

So Jews driven out in 79CE get to go back to Israel?

Yes or no:

Sure, as long as they are there as equals with all of the other people there and that all of the people there are subject to the same laws and rules, and that anyone else who wants to live there can as well, regardless of their religion or ethnicity.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM

"Sure, as long as they are there as equals with all of the other people there and that all of the people there are subject to the same laws and rules, and that anyone else who wants to live there can as well, regardless of their religion or ethnicity. "

Since NONE of those conditions apply to the Arab nations that the Jews were driven out of in 1948, shouldn't Israel be held to the same standards that the Arab countires have imposed?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM

Since NONE of those conditions apply to the Arab nations that the Jews were driven out of in 1948, shouldn't Israel be held to the same standards that the Arab countires have imposed?

Show me some proof of this, beardedbruce, and not from a zionist website. It has to come from websites that represent the governments you are accusing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

"If you blame Israel and only Israel (and throw in the USA) for the ills of Palestineans or the Middle East,"
Israel is a highly militarised, terrorist state which has persistently used its military might in pursuit of an expansionist policy.
Through its persistant disregard for human rights and international law it has done more damage to the Jewish people than has been done by any dedicated anti-Semite organisation since the end of W.W.2.
"If you deny the attachment of the Jewish people to ancient Israel..."
This is basing the existance of a state on a 2000 year old myth and, carried to its logical conclusion, would justify any demand to returning of the USA to the Native Americans, New Zealand to the Maori people and Australia to...... where would you like to call a halt?
"If you consistently claim Israel is not a democratic country,"
The Nazi Party were elected democratically - how you attain power is only a part of the picture, how you use it when you have it is what counts.
The only anti Semitism to appear on this thread has been in the imaginations of those spineless enough to resort to the blackmail tactic of "agree with me or I'll call you an anti-Semite".
You have my gratitude - reading your prescriptive list explains perfectly where Israel is coming from.
The whingeing and snivelling about paint-bomb guns, fire works or who fired first is totally beside the point. Israeli troops committed an act of piracy on the high seas, they killed (possibly executed) unarmed or poorly armed non combatants who were well within their legal rights in offering resistance.
In the past they have been guilty of slaughtering civilians, buldozing homes, using chemical weapons and ghettoising citizens in order to annex their land - war crimes, no less.
I suppose this make me (along with the vast majority of the democratic, free-thinking world) an anti-Semite.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:14 PM

With all this stuff about how canisters and such like fired at people aren't anything to worry about,here is a reminder of a story about something like that which has been posted in this thread, but hasn't got too much attention in the media - Peace activist, Emily Henochowicz, loses eye after being shot with tear gas

"Emily was "hit in the face with a tear gas projectile fired directly at her by an Israeli soldier during the demonstration at Qalandiya checkpoint today." Sören Johanssen, a Swedish activist standing beside Henochowicz, reported that, "They fired many canisters at us in rapid succession. One landed on either side of Emily, then the third one hit her in the face.""

Of course she didn't get hit by a bullet, so that's all right...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:36 PM

"Sling shots with pebbles are also as dangerous as paintballs."
But not as dangerous as "tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine guns, Glock handguns" which the Israelis were carrying.
Still deciding how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM

Carol, I understand that you disbelieve the Israelis, but why do you accept everything from the other side without question?

I disbelieve everything that is said by the Israelis because they are always proven to be lying and because they refuse to release the rest of the video evidence. And I believe the people on the flotilla because I am a part of their movement and I know what they are about.


The new video. It shows no firing of anything from the boats.
No sign of anything coming at the ship, and passengers do not appear concerned. We see no injured people at all.

You can hear the sounds of things hitting the ship. You can also see one exploded paint pellet on a wall on the ship. You can hear many sounds of explosions and things hitting the ship that are coming from the helicopters. You can see many injured passengers. You don't see them before the Israelis landed because the person with the camera was not in the area that was being fired upon. At least not in the part that we saw. We don't know what is on the rest of the video.


We do see the ladder with red liquid running down the bulkhead, and the sound of probable shots. Can we be sure it is in time sequence?
You would challenge that from the other side.

I have no doubt that experts could make this determination. I would encourage the people involved to have the video examined by experts.


There is no sign of shooting from the helicopter.

You can hear the sound of shooting from the helicopter.


The commentary in your first video spoke of nothing but cannisters. No explosions or incoming fire mentioned. Why not?

Keith, as you can see, the correspondents are not on the part of teh ship where the shooting is taking place. They are not able to take the live feed there for several reasons, one being that the equipment is set up there were they are. And events are happening too fast for them to be able to keep up.


My boat video must be pre landing because the boat is not visible in the landing sequence, and would be.
The firecrackers/stun grenades explode in the boat. There is no evidence that they came from the boat, and it makes no sense. Likewise the plates.

Keith, your video shows only a very small portion of the water next to the ship. To think that you know what is outside the field of vision of the camera is pretty ridiculous. The passengers said that they were throwing back into the boats things that had been fired into the ship.

I am calling for all video evidence to be released by the government of Israel. You can not say that we don't know it exists, because the existence of smuggled footage proves that the journalists are telling the truth when they say they were filming and photographing what was happening, and that it was confiscated. That, and the Israeli government has been selectively releasing some of the footage itself, so it can't deny it exists.

I call for all of the video evidence to be released and to be examined by experts. On the other hand, you have already decided that the government of Israel is telling the truth even though they have already been caught in numerous lies and have been forced to retract many of the things they've said about the flotilla members and about what happened that night. You are willing to accept, without question, the word of proven liars. I am demanding that all of the evidence be released and examined by experts.

Between the two of us, I am the only one who is interested in the truth.


Re. Indian Ocean pirates, they could fly all the flags in the world and they would still be boarded without asking their permission.

This is speculation, and not fact. Please cite to me the law that would permit such boardings, and what criteria govern what ships that sail under the flag of a country may be forcibly boarded and for what reason.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM

And to follow up McGrath's post, here is video evidence that Israeli soldiers deliberately aim for the head with their tear gas cannisters...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv1DZNn39O8

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM

1000

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM

Carol, I understand that you disbelieve the Israelis, but why do you accept everything from the other side without question?

I would also like to say that every time the government of Israel has been proven to be lying, the proof has vindicated what the passengers were saying. So not only does the government of Israel have a proven track record of lying, the passengers on the flotilla have a proven track record of telling the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM

In the Jerusalem Dispatch on June 1st it was reported that
"The soldiers thought they would encounter Bilin-style violence"

What is Bilin?

"Bil'in is a Palestinian village that is struggling to exist. It is fighting to safeguard its land, its olive trees, its resources… its liberty.

By annexing close to 60% of Bil'in land for Israeli settlements and the construction of Israel's separation wall, the state of Israel is strangling the village. Every day it destroys a bit more, creating an open air prison for Bil'in's inhabitants.
Supported by Israeli and international activists, Bil'in residents peacefully demonstrate every Friday in front of the "work-site of shame".
And every Friday the Israeli army responds with violence, both physically and psychologically"

Bilin a village of Palestine

On the 17th of April last year Bassem Abu Rahme was killed in Bil'in
He was shot with new kind of tear gaz canisters (The Rocket). He was shot in his chest which lead to his death immediately.
The high velocity tear-gas projectile, labeled "40 mm bullet, special/long range" in Hebrew has also critically injured American national, Tristan Anderson at a demonstration in Ni'lin on 13 March 2009 when he was shot in the head from 60 meters.

He participated in the weekly protest and was standing in the other side of the wall, and was shouting at the soldiers "we are in a nonviolent protest, there are kids and internationals" he couldn't continue his scrim and was shot. He was transferred to Ramallah governmental hospital, but he was dead

Basem Abu Rahme is the 18th individual to be killed by Israeli forces during a demonstration against the Wall.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM

CarolC: you play the lawyer with Angela Lano & Friends and had no problem in calling me a racist, laughable and very stupid insult. Think about what would you have said, you and your fiends, if I had labelled you as Hamas Press Office, but you had no problem in calling me a member of the hasbara brigade. Reciprocity is the foundation of every relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM

If it were possible to have a filter to remove the person to person skirmishing, this would,be a much shorter thread, but a much more meaningful one.

The best thing to do when we feel attacked or insulted, rightly or wrongly, fairly or unfairly, is to ignore it, and carry on with dealing with the actual issues.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:19 PM

Summary of this argument....errr contridiction.....errr, abuse thread:

SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
Yes, but I came here for an argument!!
OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

Oh look, this isn't an argument!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
It's just contradiction!
No it isn't!
It IS!
It is NOT!
You just contradicted me!
No I didn't!
You DID!
No no no!
You did just then!
Nonsense!
I came here for a good argument!
AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!
An argument isn't just contradiction.
Well! it CAN be!
No it can't!
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't!
Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
It is NOT!
It is!
Not at all!
It is Not

Quotes:Thanks to the Monty Python Argument Clenic team (AKA, "Mudcat New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid" Argument Clenic)

Just an observation, not an argument, contradiction or abuse statement :)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:21 PM

CarolC: you play the lawyer with Angela Lano & Friends and had no problem in calling me a racist, laughable and very stupid insult. Think about what would you have said, you and your fiends, if I had labelled you as Hamas Press Office, but you had no problem in calling me a member of the hasbara brigade. Reciprocity is the foundation of every relationship.

Roberto, you're the one who set the tone. I'm not playing lawyer with Angela Lano. The charge of anti-Semitism is regularly used by people defending Israel who want to discredit people in order to silence them. We can see quite a bit of it right here in this thread. If this wasn't such a regular practice, people like me might be a bit less skeptical when we see people making that accusation.

So let me ask you this, then... do you support maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel, or do you support the right of the Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from their homes during the Nakba to return to their areas of origin?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM

"They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves."

NO Keith they do NOT!

They have stated unabiguously that NONE of the banned and desperately required items like cenent and batteries for wheelchairs will be allowed in

If you want to know what Israelis can do with all the cement that WILL NOT be going to Gaza - take a look at a video on yopu tube of illegal settlers pouring cement into springs used by Palestinians!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

Lox, Carol and Jim, you just know that Israelis can only do bad things, and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious.

If the Israelis weren't so regularly caught lying and committing all kinds of libels on other people, we might see it differently.

The government of Israel has repeatedly been caught lying about the people in the flotilla and about what happened. If they weren't doing bad things, they would have no reason to lie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:26 PM

The sounds on the new video soundtrack are absolutely not identifiable as gunfire.

I'm willing to let an expert make that determination because I care about the truth. How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM

"Lox ... you just know that Israelis can only do bad things"

I see that Keith A, famous impartial critic, has run out of actual arguments, so he is reduced to:

1: Pigeon holing his opponents into one lump.

2: Inventing opinons for them collectively (in this case one I don't hold)

3: Reasserting his version of the 'facts' despite serious doubt beinbg cast on them.


Your stubbornesss and obtuseness bely your lack of neutrality Keith.

Your personal slander marks you out as being full of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM

Yes, that's a good point, Lox. The way he phrased it really doesn't apply to any of us.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM

They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves.

They have done that every time, and made it known that was to happen this time."

That just is not true. Any deliveries are only made after the Israelis have removed a whole range of essential items, according to some insane list of what isn't allowed. Medical equipment, building materials - even stuff like jam and various types of sweets. Though I see that they have now offered to allow jam and potato chips and a few items like this into Gaza, having banned them for years...
................

It is nonsense to call the behaviour of people resisting an attack by armed intruders "unprovoked violence". If an Israeli boat were boarded in international waters by an armed force of opponents would any sane person describe it as "unprovoked violence" if they laid about the intruders with everything they had to hand?

It would have been more prudent of the protesters to hold off and maintain non-violent discipline in face of the attack - though the history of non-violence, in Israel, as well as in places like India in the time of Gandhi, apartheid South Africa, the Jim Crow American South and elsewhere is that you can still get killed, especially if you are making any progress.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:43 PM

you just know that Israelis can only do bad things

This has no basis in reality. I would say that the Israeli government only does bad things, and the evidence supports this assertion. That is hardly the same as saying that all Israelis can only do bad things, and your having said it that way shows your own bias.

and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious.

I am calling for the release of all evidence. You are the one who wants to suppress the rest of the evidence. So that would make you complicit in Israel's lies. Under the circumstances, it's quite obvious that you are the one with the closed mind. If your mind was open, you would also wish to see the release of the rest of the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM

"It would have been more prudent of the protesters to hold off and maintain non-violent discipline in face of the attack"

This is what the cammandoes - at least some of them rather young men from the reports - had been led to expect

A 'Bilin style' protest where non violent protesters like 29 year old Bassem Abu Rahme are killed

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM

More passenger testimony

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM

That's what I meaqnt, Emma. Effective non-violent protesters can expect to meet violence, including lethal violence. And the more effective they become, the greater the violence they will meet.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

But Kevin, how many people have heard of Bassem Abu Rahme or Tristan Anderson or Emily Henochowicz or the others not 'martyrs' just young people standing up for what they believe

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:19 PM

I just saw an announcement that a flotilla that is supposed to be leaving Lebanon for Gaza in a week or two may have as many as 50 ships.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM

How many people can remember the names of pretty well anyone killed in any sort of conflict? Non-violent struggle is no different. Non-violence isn't about being safe, it's about achieving a kind of victory that violence cannot achieve.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM

Weird - keiths post in which he admitted to having no more arguments has disappeared.

Oh well.

I read it while it was there so I will take his admission with me.



I think I've had enough of this headache.


It's utterly exhausting!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM

It certainly is, Lox.

I just fully realized what Keith is trying to pull over on us, too. He is telling us to believe the people who are hiding evidence and he's telling us not to believe the people who are saying they want all of the evidence to be seen by the public, and that to believe the people who are hiding evidence is being open minded, and to believe the people who are saying they want all of the evidence shown to the public is closed minded. Interesting mental equation there.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

More footage with much better sound and resolution...

http://gazaflotilla.delegitimize.com/statements/activist-statements/exclusive-16-minute-footage-from-mavi-marmari/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM

""It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area.""

Let us assume for a moment that you are right about this.

So, the two state solution is the better way to go (hypothetically).

That would require that each side remain within its own territory.

With me so far?......GOOD!

Then tell me this. Which side is occupying part of the other side's territory, and has been for over fifty years.

I'll giv you a clue.........ITS NAME IS ISRAEL!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM

Note to Keith -
Please see the first message in this thread. I had to prohibit Guest posts in this thread because we had some troublesome ones. I deleted a number of posts from you because you weren't logged in.
If you need help logging in, contact me by e-mail.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:18 PM

"I just fully realized what Keith is trying to pull over on us, too"

I'm just wondering if the last few posts allegedly from Keith were or if some prat is playing silly buggers - heaven's knows it wouldn't be the first time an identity has been abused

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:24 PM

In this last video, we can quite clearly hear shots being fired before the Israelis have come down from the helicopters, and what I had thought was paint on a wall from pellets in the lower quality version, is actually blood dripping down from a hatch (before the Israelis have come down from the helicopter).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM

I get extremely fed up of hearing accusations of Anti Semitism levelled at anyone who dares criticise the actions of the Israeli government, or the IDF.

When will apologists for these thugs realise that the Israeli government and the IDF are institutionally Anti Semitic in their hatred of Palestinian Arabs..

Both Jews and Arabs are Semites, so the concept that only hatred of Jews is Anti Semitic, is, to put it bluntly, arrant bloody nonsense.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:08 AM

Israeli document: Gaza blockade isn't about security

By Sheera Frenkel | McClatchy Newspapers

JERUSALEM — As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as "economic warfare" against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory.

Israel imposed severe restrictions on Gaza in June 2007, after Hamas won elections and took control of the coastal enclave after winning elections there the previous year, and the government has long said that the aim of the blockade is to stem the flow of weapons to militants in Gaza.

Last week, after Israeli commandos killed nine volunteers on a Turkish-organized Gaza aid flotilla, Israel again said its aim was to stop the flow of terrorist arms into Gaza.

However, in response to a lawsuit by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group, the Israeli government explained the blockade as an exercise of the right of economic warfare.

"A country has the right to decide that it chooses not to engage in economic relations or to give economic assistance to the other party to the conflict, or that it wishes to operate using 'economic warfare,'" the government said.

McClatchy obtained the government's written statement from Gisha, the Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, which sued the government for information about the blockade. The Israeli high court upheld the suit, and the government delivered its statement earlier this year.

Sari Bashi, the director of Gisha, said the documents prove that Israel isn't imposing its blockade for its stated reasons, but rather as collective punishment for the Palestinian population of Gaza. Gisha focuses on Palestinian rights.

(A State Department spokesman, who wasn't authorized to speak for the record, said he hadn't seen the documents in question.)

The Israeli government took an additional step Wednesday and said the economic warfare is intended to achieve a political goal. A government spokesman, who couldn't be named as a matter of policy, told McClatchy that authorities will continue to ease the blockade but "could not lift the embargo altogether as long as Hamas remains in control" of Gaza.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html?mi_pluck_action=comment_submitted&qwxq=4681640#Comments_Container?storylink=addthis

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:43 AM

Angela Lano signed a call in favour of the right of Robert Faurisson to deliver a lecture at Teramo University in 2007 (The Holocaust never happened, the gas chambers are an invention, and so on) and has often being protagonist of conferences together with characters that belong to the extreme right, fascist and nazi type, such as the scholar Claudio Mutti, linked with Franco Freda, the terrorist with responsibility in the Piazza Fontana Massacre (1969), Tiberio Graziani, a fascist scholar, etc.

But maybe CarolC prefers not to know these facts, and fancy a flotilla crew all composed by immaculate peace lovers.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:46 AM

What means "signed a call"?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM

I meant she made an appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:57 AM

The deleted posts were mine.
Carol, I did not tell you to believe one side and not the other.
That is what you do now.
I advise you to believe nothing that is not supported, or is contradicted, by video evidence.
All my arguments are from the video evidence. That is why I have no more arguments. I have never repeated IDF propaganda, and I refuted their claim to have been attacked with stun grenades. You, believed the ridiculous story about them being thrown or fired up from boats and then thrown back.

The cargo was delivered to Gaza but last I heard Hamas refused it.
There is an arbitrary sounding list of prohibited items.
Israel regards itself as being at war with the Hamas state and justified in only allowing essentials.
All debatable, but everyone knows about it.

---

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: GUEST,keith. - PM Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:13 PM Lox, Carol and Jim, you just know that Israelis can only do bad things, and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious. You might not think it legitimate to stop blockade runners, and it is a grey area, but everyone knows that is what israelis do. They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves. They have done that every time, and made it known that was to happen this time. And that actually is what happened. The only difference this time was that the protesters overwhelmed the boarding party with unprovoked violence. The lightly armed soldiers were at their mercy and subject to violence that could be expected to kill for 3 minutes until they shot some people. Then they took the ship to Israel and delivered the cargo to Gaza as usual. Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: GUEST,keith - PM Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM The sounds on the new video soundtrack are absolutely not identifiable as gunfire. Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid From: GUEST,keith - PM Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM Lox, yes, I have run out of arguments, until new evidence emerges. Carol, I expect to be proved right about the sounds, but we shall see and I will grovel if proved wrong. Lox, you might not agree with my statement about you three, but I think it fair because you, Lox, insisted that the cowering soldiers on the deck being clubbed by a gang weilding metal bars are being agressive, and their attackers are helpless victims.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:10 AM

But Keith, some of your arguments are not from the video evidence, but from the video lack of evidence. If you look at a video and say "there was no shooting until X happened" what you don't know is what happened before the start of the video clip that you saw. Was the beginning chopped off? Did they only start filming after they heard shots being fired? We don't know. You can't look at a piece of video and say what happened "first" until you know the history of the video and what came before it. And you certainly can't do that and claim your arguments are "from the video evidence".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:34 AM

But maybe CarolC prefers not to know these facts, and fancy a flotilla crew all composed by immaculate peace lovers.

If I preferred to not know them, why would I have asked you three or more times to show them to me?

Ok. I am very saddened that someone like Angela Lano was participating in the flotilla. Her presence there does not at all assist the cause of helping the Palestinians gain their freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:48 AM

Carol, I did not tell you to believe one side and not the other.
That is what you do now.

You told me I was being closed minded for not believing your version.

I advise you to believe nothing that is not supported, or is contradicted, by video evidence.

Actually, you have repeatedly done just that.

All my arguments are from the video evidence.

Except that they're not. A lot of your arguments you have even admitted are your belief and your opinion based on nothing other than what you think about things. Like for instance, whether or not pirate ships that fly under the flag of a country would be boarded in international waters.

That is why I have no more arguments.

You never really had any to begin with. Just a lot of wild speculation based on the lies that have been promoted by the government of Israel.

You, believed the ridiculous story about them being thrown or fired up from boats and then thrown back.

You have no evidence that this did not happen. You only have your opinion that it did not.

The cargo was delivered to Gaza but last I heard Hamas refused it.

I have been told by someone in Gaza, who made a special trip to the local Hamas office to ask them about it just for me, that Hamas are concerned that if they accept that aid from the government of Israel, people will accuse them of stealing some of it. They have good reason to be concerned about this, since both Israel and the US have used this tactic against them in the past. If Israel is sincere about ensuring that the people of Gaza get the aid that they stole from the flotilla, they can very easily hand it over to one or more of the many NGOs that operate in Gaza.

There is an arbitrary sounding list of prohibited items.
Israel regards itself as being at war with the Hamas state and justified in only allowing essentials.

As the Israeli government document that is discussed in the article in my last link shows, the blockade is an act of collective punishment (a war crime under the Geneva Conventions) in order to accomplish the political agenda of forcing Hamas out of office. As such, it is an illegal blockade, and the people on board the ships of the flotilla had every right under international law, to defend themselves and their ships.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:04 AM

"Summary of this argument...."
If that is all that you have got from this discussion Ed - you haven't been listening.
There has been a great deal of detailed argument produced from both sides and an attempt to analyse it.
On the other hand there have been a number of unsubstantiated and dishonest accusations of racism (including your own) - which really belong at the top of your list.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:19 AM

Carol and Mousethief,
If there had been firing before the landing, there should be evidence on the shipboard videos.
None of them show it happening or show the results except possibly that ladder scene.
The commentator would have referred to it in his rants against the Israelis. The people who keep rushing in with news of what the Israelis are doing all forget to mention that the Israelis are shooting at them. That is good evidence that there was no shooting.
Also, the soldiers did not all carry firearms.
As has been mentioned, Israeli soldiers usually do.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM

Carol, your new video shows that the boat alongside was filmed well before the landings.
In one continuous take we see the helicopter, the side if the ship and distant boats.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM

Blood, Keith. Dripping from the open hatch.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:53 AM

Keith, there wasn't only one boat along side the ship. There were many.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM

Look, Keith, the passengers are all saying the same things. And they all want all of the video footage and still shots to be released. These are not stupid people. They wouldn't be calling for the video and still shots to be released if they wouldn't support what they have been saying. To think that they would do that is just silly. There is no reason to not believe them. The government of Israel has been caught in numerous lies. They don't want the video and still shots to be released. There is every reason to not believe them.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:38 AM

Something everyone here seems to have missed which amazes me is that as the camera is showing us the blood on the ladder, it pans rouns and films a red dot moving around on the deck which is clearly from a lazer sighting on a machine gun.

There is much attention drawn to this lazer sighting.

All of the above is filmed before troops land.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:46 AM

"I refuted their claim to have been attacked with stun grenades."

Ok - The Israeli's claim they fired Stun Grenades.

The Ships passengers claim that stun grenades wre fired on board.

And There is a video of a stun grenade going off, which both Israelis and Palestinians claim is a stun grenade, except that they dispute its source.


But Keith has looked at the video and determined that it is a firework.


I think Keith should testify at the investigation as none of the witnesses on any side have a clue what really happened, only Keith does.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM

"Also, the soldiers did not all carry firearms.
As has been mentioned, Israeli soldiers usually do."

How do you know?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM

At 2:08 in the film you can clearly see an Israeli trooper sitting with his legs hanging out the door of the helicopter and a machine gun at the ready on his knee and pointing down at the ship. He appears to have no gloves on his hands and is not preparing to abseil down as both hands are occupied with the gun.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:08 AM

The sequence with the lazer sighting is from 1:32 to 1:50, interrupted briefly by a scandanavian journalist tellling the camera what is happening.

The discovery of the blood, coinciding with the sound of distant guns, followed by the sight of a lazer machine gun sight and the image of an Israeli soldier sitting with his machine gun poised, coincides with the testimony of the passengers that they were fired upon before the troopers landed on the ship.

The sound of gun fire on board the ship after the troops have landed is much clearer.

The people going below deck with the wounded are not in any more of a panic than the journalists ducking behind the lifeboats during the initial discovery of the blood.


The case is becoming more and more compelling, especially when combined wth Carols point that The Israelis are covering up while those who were on board are trying to make things more transparent.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM

I've been trying to track down something I read last year in the Guardian, where one of the women in the cabinet of the UK mentioned (as if it were understood to be a good thing) about the Royal Navy being involved in supporting the blockade. All I can find at the moment is odd mentions about helping to make sure weapons are not imported, which I have not been able to open, so I can't get involved in writing to the new government about their position on this.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM

Yet.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:25 AM

I made a mistake with the sighting of the Machine gun on the soldiers knee - I retract that observation.

On the other hand, I noted that the Israeli Soldiers who were brought downstairs on the video weree carried with exactly the same care as the wounded passengers were by those carying them.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:56 AM

The world was duped

By Miriam Ziv, Citizen Special June 11, 2010

The international outrage that arose immediately following the Israeli navy's recent interception of a Gaza-bound flotilla was a sad reminder of the hypocrisy Israel faces on a constant basis.

It would seem the greater part of the international media chose to ride the slander wave and for a few days at least, showed reticence in acknowledging this "peace mission" was actually a political stunt aimed at manipulating the world. Many journalists, sadly, abandoned their duties to search for the truth. Instead, they fuelled international outrage with rushed judgments and exaggerations.

The truth is spreading however. The situation has become more transparent, and the peaceful interception of the Rachel Corrie ship last week has, in concrete terms, exposed the difference between a humanitarian peace mission led by civilians and a violent mission led by hostile extremists. Last week, it was as if these words were completely interchangeable.

Despite the fact international coverage of the event has become a bit more balanced, the extremist nature of the organizers of the flotilla, as well as of some of the passengers on board, remains overlooked in many circles.

Leading the organizations participating in the aid flotilla was the Turkish organization IHH. The IHH, under the guise of an Islamic charity organization, plays a central role in terrorist recruitment and financing. Outlawed by the state of Israel in 2008, the IHH was also heavily scrutinized by the Turkish government, which first expressed concerns about the group in 1997. The office of the organization in Istanbul was searched and several activists arrested. Further inspection into what was found in the office revealed IHH members' plans to take part in jihadist activities in Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya. In recent years, the IHH has assisted Hamas with its propaganda campaign, as well as its armed struggle.

Five of the passengers were also found by the Israeli government to be active terror operatives, some providing direct financial support to al-Qaeda and others to Hamas.

The Middle East Media Research Institute has released footage of statements made by the head of the IHH Turkish Islamist organization, Bulent Yildirim, who in a speech delivered in Gaza in 2009, glorified martyrdom. The Israel Defence Forces released a video shot from the Mavi Marmara in which a passenger was heard discussing his desire to become a martyr.

Sadly, the demonization of Israel that has been reinforced by this incident has been a major distraction to the world which was really the flotilla's ultimate goal. Arab and Muslim populations, for example, are being manipulated into supporting the forceful dictatorships that rule over them, thereby forgetting the state of stagnancy they find themselves in.

What we are faced with is a campaign to spread Islamic fundamentalism around the world. Those who have participated in the global support for this flotilla have, knowingly or unknowingly, also helped to embolden Hamas and other terrorist organizations.

Much scarier than the confounding of words is the complete reversal of values by the international community. This voyage is not only part of an attempt to deny Israel's right to defend itself, it is also part of an orchestrated attempt to threaten western values, and this is not something the world should be so naive about. Extremist Muslim leaders have time and time again publicly stated that Islam would eventually take over, and the duping of the world is only part of their master plan.

Those who choose to unfairly attack Israel and isolate it for defending itself against terrorist threats, seem to be forgetting one crucial thing: "Israel's struggle," as the Spanish journalist Pilar Rahola wrote, "is the struggle of the world."

Miriam Ziv is Israel's ambassador to Canada.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/world+duped/3139305/story.html#ixzz0qXpmQGiP

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:05 AM

It transpires that the decision to board the aid ships was taken on political and not defensive grounds. It's reported in this mornings Irish Times, quoting from the Jewish Haaretz newspaper, that Israeli foreign mininstry officials and military legal advisers warned the government not to intercept the aid flotilla.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:07 AM

Lox, you may not see a soldier with a gun in the helicopter, but there would have been one covering the ship.
In the video of the boat alongside, a soldier can be seen taking aim but not firing.
That is what soldiers do.
If the laser spot is a gunsight, it is still not evidence that the ship was fired on.
That image below the hatch is the only evidence so far.
(Guest post was mine.)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM

"The world was duped"

And your evidence is the opinion of the Israeli Ambassador to Canada?

Well no bias there then.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM

In the Jerusalem Post there is an interview with the 'hero' commando (likely to be awarded a valour medal) who claims to have personally killed 6 of the victims of the military attack on the flotilla.

His description includes the following statement aimed at depicting the activists on board as trained Al-Qaeda terrorists

"T. said he realized the group they were facing was well-trained and likely ex-military after the commandos threw a number of stun grenades and fired warning shots BEFORE rappelling down onto the deck.
"They didn't even flinch," he said. "Regular people would move"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:53 AM

Lox,

"which is clearly from a lazer sighting on a machine gun."


Big jump on your part- Shall I say that it is clearly a laser pointer from an IHH terrorist to make people think that the ship was being targeted- after all, I have the same evidence that YOU do- NONE.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:06 AM

This is BBC Newsnight Defence Editor disussing the incident with some of the erly images.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8718036.stm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:11 AM

Well BB,

I Guess EmmaB's post wraps it up.

The Israeli commando in her article, the passengers on the ship, and the Video footage all corroborate each other.

Specifically, they all corroborate the allegation that shots were fired before the troopers descended, and they confirm the allegations that stun grenades were fired on board.


As those are the disputed facts on this thread I guess we can move on until information emerges which clearly refutes those allegations.


In the meantime, the IDF and the Israeli government have a lot of work to do to repaair their international reputation after issuing so much falsified evidence and after making so many discredited accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

"that shots were fired before the troopers descended"

WARNING shots, per the report.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

I had noticed the laser light, too, but I forgot to mention it. As Lox said, it's an important part of the evidence.


The blood scene is compelling Lox. Carol previously thought it might be paint.

In the lower quality video, I wasn't able to see the amount of it. I thought it was just a little bit of paint splattered on the wall. But after seeing the higher quality video, I can see that it's not spattered at all, and there's far more of it than would be the case if it was from paint pellets. There's a lot of it and it's dripping down from the open hatch.


Carol, I have only argued from the video evidence.

Except that you have not. As someone else pointed out, you are arguing from what is not in the video evidence rather than what is in the video evidence. And since you aren't in a position to know what you can't see or hear, you can't use that as evidence. But we do have the witness testimonies and so far all of the evidence that has turned up has corroborated their testimonies and discredited the Israeli version of events. On that basis, and because the passengers are calling for the release of all of the footage and still shots, we can make a reasonable judgment that the passengers are telling the truth, and the Israeli government is lying.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM

We do have the blood evidence, though, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:12 PM

'Warning' shots or not - how do people on the ground know the difference? - shots WERE fired before by reports from the commandos AND the passengers before the attacking forces landed!

This fact is only in dispute from the official Israeli media handouts.

The information from the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies on the flotilla victims undermines, from the manner and intensity of the killings, Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists.

…Dr Haluk Ince, the chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, said that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other victim suffered multiple wounds…He added that all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds.
Of this other round, he said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms. It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain."

This also ties in with some eyewitness accounts that shots were fired from above resulting in one death.

A TRAGEDY OF ERRORS?

American liberal Jewish blogger Richard Silverstein who 'focuses on Israeli-Palestinian peace but includes commentary on U.S. politics, a world music mp3 blog, and other writing on Jewish life, literature, and culture' comments….


"After reading thousands of words of reporting and eyewitness accounts and watching videos released by both sides, I'm coming to the conclusion that what happened was that the Israeli commandos initially fired stun grenades and rubber bullets from helicopters in order to disperse the crowd on board before they landed.

Either some passengers interpreted this as an all out assault on the ship or they were spoiling for a fight.

The initial group of commandos were overrun, beaten and some dragged below decks either to be used as hostages or for medical attention. I speculate that when the IDF command saw their comrades overrun on board and discovered they perhaps had been taken hostage, an automatic, instinctual blood-lust took over.
They not only had to liberate their comrades at all costs, but they had to eliminate whatever threat they had faced.

So, I don't necessarily believe the IDF went into this planning for a massacre (though senior IDF officers were quoted in the Israeli press as saying they were prepared to use lethal force if necessary). But when events spun out of control and did not follow the scenario they'd planned, soldiers began acting on impulse and in completely disorganized fashion, which is fatal to a complicated operation such as this.
In the end, it WAS a massacre. A massacre caused by missed cues and obliviousness on both sides as to how aggressive behavior might be viewed by the other side. Of course, the preponderance of blame is on the Israeli side both because they initiated the encounter and because they had the overwhelming advantage in lethal force.
Lest anyone misunderstand, I am not trying to defend or whitewash the Israeli attack by understanding or explaining how it might've gone wrong.

I am coming closer and closer to believing that most of the nine (and perhaps as many as 15) were executed after they were subdued and wounded.

Tikun Olam

a Hebrew phrase that means "repairing the world." a practice should be followed NOT because it is required by Biblical law, but because it helps avoid social chaos.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:14 PM

The assertion that it's because the Rachel Corrie was peaceful that it didn't get attacked is a lie. The other ships and boats in the flotilla that were with the Mavi Marmara were also peaceful, but they were taken violently and not peacefully. Nobody that we know of was killed on them, but there was nothing peaceful about the way the Israelis behaved towards the passengers on those ships. The passengers were beaten, and shot with tasers and rubber bullets.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM

Emma, the passengers report that they were being fired on with live rounds before the Israelis landed. We can see the blood dripping down from the open hatch before the Israelis landed. One of the journalists reported that he personally saw a man being shot from above in the top of his head, and he saw another journalist who was holding a camera taking footage being shot in the arm before the Israelis landed. The passengers are saying that the rest of the footage and still shots that the Israeli government is withholding will prove that they are telling the truth and the government of Israel is lying.

I don't think it really matters how many were killed before they landed and how many were killed after they landed. What matters is that the Israelis started killing before anything happened that they can claim necessitated acting in self-defense.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

I am very saddened to learn that Canada, a country I love, has become a fascist police state. The alternative rock group, The Pixies, has been put on Canada's list of "terrorist" organizations for refusing to perform in Israel. I think it might be time to boycott Canada.

http://australiansforpalestine.com/23813

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM

The problem with Silverstein's account, EmmaB, is that the IDF are the single best-trained army in the world. The idea they would go off their heads and start shooting randomly because one of their member was taken belowdecks is very hard to swallow. And if that was the case, how could the commander who let this happen be awarded a medal of valor, rather than a court-martial? That would show extremely poor judgment and humanitarianism on the part of the Israeli state. Oh, wait.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM

"The Pixies, has been put on Canada's list of "terrorist" organizations"

I find this both jaw-dropping, and genuinely worrying for its implications concerning how the Canadian govt. may extend such a policy to other forms of completely peaceful protest.

What I wonder, are the ultimate logical consequences of the band being placed on a list of 'terrorist organisations'.

Meaning what *in theory* could happen to them, were members of such a 'terrorist organisation' to enter Canada. And thus by extension, anyone who might similarly peacefully protest and be similarly black-listed by the state as 'terrorists'.

The Pixies of course are not all that likely to suffer anything much from such a policy, but the implications for Canadian citizens themselves, is potentially extremely worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:50 PM

Sorry about the thread drift btw. I don't mean to take the thread off track - but it does seem to say some very serious things about the current govt. in Canada. If I were a Canadian citizen, I'd be deeply concerned about the implications regards my civil liberties, freedom of expression and so-on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:52 PM

CAN YOU MAKE AN INTERNATIONAL BOYCOTT ILLEGAL?
- The Land of Israel, a right-wing parliamentary lobby group committed to Jewish settlement of the West Bank seems to think you can…..

The Independent
Friday, 11 June 2010

"What do The Pixies, Elvis Costello, and Salam Fayyad, Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority, have in common? A cursory glance might suggest not much yet all have deeply irked Israel.

When Mr Fayyad first embarked on a door-to-door campaign to persuade Palestinians to shun all products made by Jewish settlers, the Israeli public simply shrugged.
But when veteran crooner Costello peered into his conscience and pulled a scheduled appearance in Tel Aviv, Israelis sat up and took notice.

Embattled and increasingly isolated, a group of politicians are now proposing a bill that would outlaw boycotts against the Jewish State, both homegrown and international.

After last week's deadly raid on the flotilla, US rock band The Pixies cancelled their gig. Several other bands have followed suit, prompting Israeli music promoter Shuki Weiss to complain that performers are waging a form of "cultural terrorism".

Human rights activists, meanwhile, decried efforts by politicians to alienate those critical of Israel with new legislation.

"We have wild right-wing politicians presenting wild demagogic bills ... which create a very nasty public atmosphere," said Adam Keller, spokesman for Gush Shalom, an Israeli NGO that has joined calls for a boycott of settler-made goods. "If this is passed into law, it would mean a total breakdown between Israel and the PA."

If I... were a Palestinian, I would certainly join the boycott that is being imposed on the settlements and their products," wrote Yossi Sarid, a commentator in liberal Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz. "After all, it would not be human to expect me to buy my tombstone from people who were determined to bury my hopes for a good life and independence." "

However Rod Stewart and Elton John are still scheduled to perform in Israel later this year and meanwhile, authors Margaret Atwood and Amitav Ghosh, the joint recipients of an Israeli literary award, have ignored calls from activists to refuse the prize

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

"a group of politicians are now proposing a bill that would outlaw boycotts against the Jewish State, both homegrown and international."

I see, so refusing to be a part of something you personally find morally wrong, may potentially be criminalised. Well I guess it wouldn't be the first time... And it's not just worrying for Canadians then.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

If there had been firing before the landing, there should be evidence on the shipboard videos. None of them show it happening

I have always understood that it is not very easy to get a photograph of a bullet in flight.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM

How would they enforce this ban? Would the US be obligated to deport me to Israel for trial if I don't buy something from Israel every week, say?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM

mouse thief,

The boycott calls for Palestinians to shun all products made in the Jewish settlements, most of which sit on expropriated Palestinian farmland and are regarded as illegal under international law.

Should the proposed bill pass in its current form, it would force boycotters to pay compensation to any settlers who claim their business had suffered.

If approved therefore, it could theoretically force the Palestinian Authority to pay thousands of dollars in compensation to Jewish businesses affected by the Fayyad-led boycott campaign,

Additionally, any foreign citizens calling for a boycott of Israel, would potentially be banned from visiting Israel for 10 years.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:34 PM

I'm not referring to the internal boycott (are Israeli laws enforced in the occupied territories? Then why can't they vote?), which I understand is a serious thing, but rather to the international.

Wouldn't boycotting Israel in part mean not visiting?

Outlawing offshore boycotts is a clutching-at-straws desperation move.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:20 PM

People in another thread have brought up the possibility that the item about the government of Canada putting The Pixies on their list of terrorist organizations is a hoax. I hope they are right about that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 04:58 PM

Wouldn't a law in the US against calling on people to boycott Israel be in breach of your First Amendment?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:04 PM

I think the bill that's being discussed is an Israeli bill, McGrath. As far as I know, Israel does not have a constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

CarolC: "As far as I know, Israel does not have a constitution."
Partially correct:

The Basic Laws of Israel (Hebrew: חוקי היסוד‎, ḥŭḳḳēi ha-yyǝsōd) are a key component of Israel's constitutional law. These laws deal with the formation and role of the principal state's institutions, and the relations between the state's authorities. Some of them also protect civil rights. While these laws were originally meant to be draft chapters of a future Israeli constitution, they are already used on a daily basis by the courts as a formal constitution. Israel currently functions according to an unwritten constitution consisting of both material constitutional law, based upon cases and precedents, and the provisions of these formal statutes. As of today, the Basic Laws do not cover all constitutional issues, and there is no deadline set to the completion of the process of merging them into one comprehensive constitution. There is no clear rule determining the precedence of Basic Rules over regular legislation, and in many cases this issue is left to the interpretation of the jurisdictional system.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:21 PM

One of the passengers who was kidnapped by the Israelis has reported that his credit card has been used since it was confiscated by the Israeli government. Nobody has yet had their passports returned, and they are concerned that the Israeli government will clone them and use them in the commission of murders as they did recently with some Irish and Australian passports.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM

There is no clear rule determining the precedence of Basic Rules over regular legislation, and in many cases this issue is left to the interpretation of the jurisdictional system.

All of which is another way of saying there is no constitution, but if you're lucky, they will pretend there is.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM

And, of course, as BB has probably pointed out in the past*, Stalin's Russia had the most democratic constitution in the world.

*Most rightwing nutters do at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM

Oh, and that was 1066, which has to have some kind of significance.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:46 PM

Wasn't that when the native Anglo-saxons were overrun by Europeans, and lost their lands?

AFter driving out the Kelts, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

An Israeli law seeking to outlaw a boycott would probably greatly assist people trying to impose an anti-apartheid style boycott on Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:50 PM

I have received an email from the author of the piece about the Pixies being put on Canada's list of terrorist organizations. He said he was satirizing "the Canadian government's slavish devotion to Israel".

I am very relieved. I would be amused if I didn't find the situation he's satirizing so tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:05 PM

BB posts opinions on some subjects that I find as far from my way of looking at the world as it is possible to get.

But he has also made some fundamentally important points in the past that I have not only agreed with, but that I have been moved by and that have changed my outlook in fundamental ways.

In addition, even in this thread, he has clearly shown himself to be a man of character and fairness.

Calling him a nutter is akin to describing a two dimesnional entity in three dimensonal terms - meaningless.

If it wasn't for the emptiness of such a comment it might be viewed as an unfair slur.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:00 PM

Typo

"Calling him a nutter is akin to describing a two dimesnional entity in three dimensonal terms - meaningless."

Should have read:

"Calling him a nutter is akin to describing a three dimesnional entity in two dimensonal terms - meaningless."

I hope the tone of the post was clear enough for that to be plain.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:15 PM

According to the UN Human Development Index the people of Gaza live better off than people in Indonesia, India, Viet Nam, South Africa, Morocco, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kenya, Sudan, Tanzania, Nigeria and Egypt. If there is no mass starvation, then why the aid flotillas? Why not send them to Egypt?

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:18 PM

Good question Bobad.

Can anyone provide an answer to this?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:29 PM

1. Aid goes to all these countries.

2. Being better off than the poorest in these counries is not hard.

I've been to about half of them and seen how horrendous the poverty is.

To say that Gaza is better off than them is not a claim to fame for Gaza.

3. The difference between Gaza and the countries you have listed is that Aid is not allowed in to Gaza in sufficient quantities.

There are no restrictions on Building materials, toys, meat, school books etc etc in the countries you have listed

The UN also reports that 75% of essential goods goin in to Gaza are smuggled from egypt. (link provided earlier in thread)

So the problem in Gaza is the Blockade.

The solution to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is for the blockade to be challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:33 PM

Because they live in the world's biggest (open air) prison. The majority of them are dependent on foreign aid and food assistance to live (and they would rather be allowed to take care of themselves), because the blockade has completely crushed their economy. Because many of them are still living in tents since the massacre that Israel committed in Gaza in the winter of '08/'09 (that's more than a year after the massacre). Because all of their civil infrastructure was destroyed by Israel so they don't have the ability to process their raw sewage, and they have to dump it into the sea, and doing that is killing all of the fish (what's left of them) in the tiny little patch of water that they can fish in without getting shot by the Israeli terrorists.

Because their ability to generate electricity was severely crippled by the Israeli terrorists and they have to rely on generators to get electricity a lot of the time and the generators are killing people. Because the Israeli terrorists don't allow in a lot of life-saving medicines and people are dying because of it. And most Gazans aren't allowed to leave Gaza to get needed medical treatment elsewhere, and people are dying because of it. Because Israel doesn't allow them to have incubators and babies are dying because of it. Because while they're not starving to death, they are severely malnourished.

Because children aren't allowed to have paper, pencils, crayons, school books and other things they need to get a good education so they can become self-sufficient adults.

Because the Israeli terrorists are treating them like they are not human beings, and nobody deserves to be treated that way.

Really, you guys. You both sound like two of the most uncaring, and callous people I've ever encountered. Let the eat cake! Eh!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:39 PM

Bobad,

PS - I Just followed your link ...


Guess what ... on the page you provided is a list of countries ...

AND GAZA ISN''T ON IT.


So much for that evidence!

You are a waste of time and effort, and your new found puppy No.6 needs to get his nose out of your ass and smell the coffee.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:41 PM

That's probably because Gaza is not a country. Israel has made sure of that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM

Wait - its included under the all inclusive umbrella of Palestinian Occupied Territories.

So the figures are heavily moderated by the quality of life in the rest of the occupied palestinian territories.

That would be handy for somebody trying to give a misleading impression of the figures, but unhelpful for someone trying to determine quality of life in Gaza specifically.

I wonder where Gaza would come in the table if it were presented in isolation.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM

Oh Bobad ... yer about as misleading as Crow Sister ... Geeezuz H.

But until June 8th Egypt was participating in the blockade.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM

Entry 110 - Occupied Palestinian Territories

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:56 PM

Egypt is still participating in the blockade, at the command of the Egyptian lapdog's president's masters, the US and Israel.

He's letting a few people out, but that's about it. And my own opinion is that the only reason he's even doing that much is to provide people like you with more excuses to perpetuate the illegal and utterly immoral blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:58 PM

Bobad,

You're late. see my post of: - 11 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM


Number 6.

That is precisely why there have also been activists protesting on the egyptian side, and why there have been smugglers breaking the Egyptian Blockade.

In fact, as I have stated, 75% of Gaza's essential goods are smuggled in from Egypt. (Link already provided by me near the start of the thread).

Egypt hasn't murdered any of them yet.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:02 PM

Actually, that's no longer true. Egyptian forces blew a few of them up inside the tunnels.

The problem with the tunnels is that the goods that come through there are too expensive for most Gazans to be able to afford, since most Gazans are unemployed and goods coming through the tunnels are much more expensive than regular goods would be because they are black market items.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:10 PM

That is very sad news.

And Egypt needs to be held to account alongside Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:13 PM

damn right they do.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:16 PM

They won't be held to account. As long as they're willing to commit those kinds of atrocities at the behest of Israel, they will be protected by both Israel and the US.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM

oh BTW ... "Egypt is still participating in the blockade" ... from what I understand as of June 8th Egypt has lifted the blockade ... temporarily at least.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM

"So the figures are heavily moderated by the quality of life in the rest of the occupied palestinian territories."

I suppose you can provide some data for that claim.

In case you missed it earlier here is a link I provided that shows the hardships which are being endured by the Palestinians in Gaza http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001114.html

Oh and don't miss the videos, they will make your mouth water

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:24 PM

h BTW ... "Egypt is still participating in the blockade" ... from what I understand as of June 8th Egypt has lifted the blockade ... temporarily at least.

That's the spin that's being put out there, but it's only partially true. They're still not allowing goods to go in, and they're only allowing a few people to go out. For the most part, the blockade is still being enforced by Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:47 AM

bobad, the situation in Gaza is being grossly misrepresented in your link. For one thing, most Gazans can't afford to eat at posh restaurants or stay in posh resorts. This is because they can't get jobs because the Israeli terrorists have destroyed their economy.

And that video was made before the blockade was tightened to the extent it is now. The last time Mahmood Abbas (who is in that video) was in Gaza was before Hamas was elected. You're spreading lies and propaganda. Here's the facts...

___________


The amount of goods allowed into Gaza by Israel falls far short of the minimum required to avoid malnutrition, poverty, and prevent or treat a variety of illnesses. According to Amnesty International's recently-released annual report, the siege has resulted in "mass unemployment, extreme poverty, food insecurity and food price rises caused by shortages." Consider the following statistics:


    * 61 percent of households face food insecurity, defined as inadequate physical, social or economic access to food, and rely on assistance from aid agencies. An additional 16.2 percent are considered vulnerable to food insecurity. [2]

    * 65 percent of the food insecure are children under the age of 18. [3]

    * Unemployment is at 40 percent [4]

    * 10 percent of children under five are stunted (low height for age, usually attributed to a chronic lack of protein and micronutrients, including iron and essential vitamins), a steadily increasing trend over recent years, according to UNICEF. [5]

    * More than 10 percent of children are chronically malnourished, according to the World Health Organization, a significant increase since siege began.

    * The number of children under five suffering from acute malnutrition nearly doubled between 2006 and 2008 from 1.4 to 2.4 percent, according to UNICEF.

    * 65 percent of children aged 9-12 months, and 35 percent of pregnant women are anemic. [6]

    * According to a recent poverty survey conducted by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of Palestinian refugees completely unable to secure access to food and lacking the means to purchase even the most basic items, such as soap, school stationery and safe drinking water ('abject poverty') has tripled since the imposition of the blockade in June 2007

    * A majority of Gazans experience rolling blackouts of up to 12 hours a day, every day as a result of a chronic shortfall in electricity production resulting from the blockade [7]

    * Due to insufficient wastewater treatment capacity, Gaza's water authorities release 60-80 million liters a day of raw and partially treated sewage into the Mediterranean Sea, in order to avoid sewage flooding residential areas.

    * Water supply for domestic use is insufficient, raising hygiene and health concerns. In order to pump water to households, the water wells must receive electricity in synchronization with electricity supply to the same households. Almost all the households receive water for only 5-7 hours a day.


3. Does the blockade prevent the functioning of Gaza's economy?


Yes. Export of Palestinian goods, the import of raw materials and access to Gaza's natural resources have been severely restricted. For example:


    * Roughly 118 truckloads of strawberries and cut flowers exports were permitted to leave Gaza between December 10, 2009 and May 2010. Before the blockade, an average of 70 truckloads a day left Gaza during strawberry season. [8]

    * Since January 2009, the Israeli navy has illegally restricted Palestinian fishermen's access to three nautical miles offshore, yet in practice Israel often limits fishermen to only two nautical miles, reducing their catch by 47 percent. [9]

    * 46 percent of Gaza's agricultural land is inaccessible or out of production either due to destruction of lands caused by Israeli military attacks or by its "security buffer zone." [10]

    * Roughly 90 percent of Gaza's factories are closed or are functioning at less than 10 percent capacity because of the inability to obtain raw materials and the inability to export finished products [11].

    * The Israeli human rights organization Gisha provides the following example of how the blockade aims to prevent economic development: "Israel permits Gaza residents to receive small packets of margarine, considered a consumption item. Israel bans, however, the transfer of large buckets of margarine, because the buckets are designed for industrial use, rather than home consumption, meaning that they could be used to allow a local factory to produce biscuits - and thus engage in economic activity. Similarly, requests to permit empty cans into Gaza - intended for the preservation and marketing of Gaza-produced tomato paste - have been refused, but requests to transfer prepared, Israeli-made tomato paste are permitted." [12]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:50 AM

This is only a partial list of banned items. There are many more.


4. What are some of the items Israel has prohibited from entering Gaza?


    * sage

    * cardamom

    * cumin

    * coriander

    * ginger

    * jam

    * halva

    * vinegar

    * nutmeg

    * chocolate

    * fruit preserves

    * seeds and nuts

    * biscuits and sweets

    * potato chips

    * gas for soft drinks

    * dried fruit

    * fresh meat

    * plaster

    * tar

    * wood for construction

    * cement

    * iron

    * glucose

    * industrial salt

    * plastic/glass/metal containers

    * industrial margarine

    * tarpaulin sheets for huts

    * fabric (for clothing)

    * flavor and smell enhancers

    * fishing rods

    * various fishing nets

    * buoys

    * ropes for fishing

    * nylon nets for greenhouses

    * hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries

    * spare parts for tractors

    * dairies for cowsheds

    * irrigation pipe systems

    * ropes to tie greenhouses

    * planters for saplings

    * heaters for chicken farms

    * musical instruments

    * size A4 paper

    * writing implements

    * notebooks

    * newspapers

    * toys

    * razors

    * sewing machines and spare parts

    * heaters

    * horses

    * donkeys

    * goats

    * cattle

    * chicks [13]


http://imeu.net/news/article0019136.shtml


You really are one of the most callous and unfeeling people I have ever encountered. I bet you don't even see Palestinians as human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:22 AM

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/oxfam_in_action/emergencies/gaza_crisis.html

"One year since the Israeli military offensive, codenamed Operation Cast Lead, the Gaza Strip remains in a protracted crisis. Of the 1.5 million people in Gaza, 80% depend on humanitarian aid. This was already the case before the 22-day war that began on 27 December 2008. But today, the consequences of that war still overwhelm the coastal strip, as badly-needed reconstruction materials remain banned from entering Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM

More passenger testimony...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gp8ECrDQLg&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:32 AM

Yesterday I went to buy carrots. The only carrots not in too large bags for me came from Israel. I bought no carrots.

So sue me, Israel.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:41 AM

Bobad - that video is 3 years old.

Do you have anything current?



Bobad - Gaza was blitzed during December 2008 and January 2009.

Remember?

It was on the news quite a lot.

Since then, Gazans have been denied materials to rebuild and denied essential supplies.

The west Bank hasn't been through a similar assault.


Are you going to try to convince us that Gaza and the west bank are on a par in terms of the standard of living?


It is fact that is easily established by reading through the numerous links on this thread, that Gaza is in a considerably worse state than the west bank.

The west bank has access to bulding materials, medicine and food in a way that Gaza simply hasn't.

The figure for the occupied territories as a whole is an average figure.

That Average figure is already very low.

If you examine your page more carefully you find that GDP per capita in occupied territories is a 5th of what it is in Egypt.


It follows that Gaza is significatly worse off again.


Bobad - ALL your arguments and ALL your evidence havebeen refuted successfully so far.

And you have provided a lot.

Even if you were to post something current and relevant now, your overall position has been so discredited that you couldn't be taken seriously.

This is a clear case of a man who is using whatever evidence he can, whether relevant or not, to support his prejudices rather than trying to determine the truth based on what can be observed to be true.

Bobad, that last paragraph was about you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:55 AM

Alex Harrison witness: They did not treat any of us peacefully and when they say that, it's an absolute lie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 07:57 AM

I think I could do with a crash course in Zionism, as I'm far less savvy about some of the pertinent issues than many of the posters here. I've been following most of the links and stories, but one of the things I keep encountering is the quiet (as in not generally reported) but persistent voice of religious Orthodox Jews who feel Judaism has been usurped by what they see as an irreligious political Zionist movement.

Jewish Rabbis Condemn Israeli Massacre of Free Gaza Flotilla

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM

The idea that something is "complex" is a word today used as a smokescreen. Obama has used it in regard to the BP crimes in the Gulf and in the defense of Wall Street.

Israel thought it could get away with its public relations excusing it for war crimes. That's why they attacked an innocent vessel.

As to the Turkish bit, it wasn't about Turkey although Israel sought to make it that way.
That is a complete misrepresentation.

If America's only friend in the Middle-East is Israel, then as a country we are in big trouble.

I think that if American Jews were allowed to criticize Israel on the media, it would open the door to meaningful dialogue. Israel and the US today have a news blackout on this issue and that includes G.E.'s MSNBC.

Again, turn over the rock and witness the roaches.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 04:18 PM

More flotilla members complaining of their bank cards being used by Israelis after they were confiscated. Along with complaints of the theft of almost all of their other personal belongings...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnyA5kYwt40

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 04:26 PM

Egypt still enforcing the blockade, blocking a new flotilla, despite signing an agreement to allow it through

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:52 PM

LOL!

Looks like the Israelis staged some of the fighting scenes, too. In particular, pay attention to the walking through iron parts...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v95avNGWvcA

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM

"I think that if American Jews were allowed to criticize Israel on the media, it would open the door to meaningful dialogue."

Aye, it seems pressing that dissenting Jewish voices, be they American, Israeli or European, need to be be clearly heard in the media. Not only so that the public at large can hear that Jewish people and the state of Israel are not one unified homogeneous entity as they can be cast, but also that anti-Semitism rising in the wake of the publicity over Israel's actions, may be countered.

German Jews sending aid ship to Gaza Strip

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:00 AM

Israeli and Canadian Jewish women protest Gaza massacre in Canada:
"We are Jewish Women: Not in Our Name"

One of the points I found most interesting on this video, is where a young woman at the end of the video describes a rising tide of dissent among Canadian Jewish youth, and frustration among Jewish youth at the Canadian govt's unquestioning support for Israel. If what she has to say is genuinely representative of the feelings of Canadian Jewish youth, I imagine Canada won't be alone in such a sea change.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:23 AM

More American Jewish voices aren't heard in the US, not because they aren't speaking out with everything they've got, but because the complicit corporate media in the US doesn't ever cover it when they do. There has been no news coverage in the country, for instance, of the young woman who was shot in the face with a tear gas canister by Israeli border police and lost her eye because of it. She was protesting the massacre on the flotilla when this happened. But no mention of it here in this country. The complicit corporate media will never allow American Jews who criticize Israel to be heard.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:13 AM

"More American Jewish voices aren't heard in the US, not because they aren't speaking out with everything they've got, but because the complicit corporate media in the US doesn't ever cover it when they do."

Following up the prior vid. where a young Jewish Canadian woman describes a rising tide of objection to Israel's actions in Gaza among Canadian Jewish youth, this opinion piece (and straying off the specific topic of the flotilla again here) suggests a similar trend among American Jewish youth: Israel In Danger of Losing America's Jewish Youth

If such feeling exists and indeed is growing specifically among Western Jewish youth, however much corporate media may strive to silence dissenting Jewish voices, it can't do so indefinitely. One can only wonder where that will leave Israel in ten or more years..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 09:38 AM

""Despite the fact international coverage of the event has become a bit more balanced, the extremist nature of the organizers of the flotilla, as well as of some of the passengers on board, remains overlooked in many circles.""

Miriam needs to take a brief reality check.

Those fanatics were so extreme in their views that they boarded the ship without effective weapons, So extreme that they took on fully armed troops with a few iron bars and galley knives, So extreme that, when they captured handguns, they did not use them, and so extreme that not one soldier was seriously injured, let alone killed, as were nine of these extremist fanatics.

I take it that Miriam believes that political opposition is a crime which should be punishable by death, unless committed by Israeli troops, in which case murder magically transmogrifies into justifiable self defence.

Shheeesh!
Don T.

PS. Nobody has yet responded to my comment that antisemitism applies to hating Arabs just as much as to hating Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:21 AM

Don(Wyziwyg)T writes: "Nobody has yet responded to my comment that antisemitism applies to hating Arabs just as much as to hating Jews."

Antisemitism is a word with a history behind, that cannot be disentangled from anti-Judaism. It was born as another way, a milder way, of saying anti-Judaism.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:48 AM

Wilhelm Mahr (1819-1904) could be termed the father of 'modern' antisemitism

When he became embittered about the failure of the 1848-49 German Revolution to democratize Germany, and about his own rapidly declining political fortunes, he turned his venom against the Jews

"Marr and others employed the word antisemitism in the largely secular anti-Jewish political campaigns that became widespread in Europe around the turn of the century.

The word derived from an 18th-century analysis of languages that differentiated between those with so-called "Aryan" roots and those with so-called "Semitic" ones.

This distinction led, in turn, to the assumption--a false one--that there were corresponding racial groups.

Within this framework, Jews became "Semites," and that designation paved the way for Marr's new vocabulary.
He could have used the conventional German term Judenhass to refer to his hatred of Jews, but that way of speaking carried religious connotations that Marr wanted to de-emphasize in favour of racial ones"


Eventually, it became a way of speaking about all the forms of hostility toward Jews throughout history.

From the Jewish Virtual Library

There was nothing 'mild' about the use of the term

"For if Jews were found wanting religiously, it was possible for them to convert.
If their business practices or political views were somehow inappropriate, changed behavior could, in principle, correct their shortcomings.
But antisemites in the line that ran from Marr to Hitler believed that Jews were a menace no matter what they did"

ibid above vis The Holocaust Project

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:00 AM

""Antisemitism is a word with a history behind, that cannot be disentangled from anti-Judaism. It was born as another way, a milder way, of saying anti-Judaism.""

Get an education Roberto.

Jews and Arabs are both Semites.

Racial hatred of either is Antisemitism.

I know you would prefer that it were otherwise, but it ISN'T. LIVE WITH IT!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM

"PS. Nobody has yet responded to my comment that antisemitism applies to hating Arabs just as much as to hating Jews. "

This topic was covered at the Mudcat several years ago at other blame
Israel fests. As EmmaB correctly poits out the term anti-Semite (and its varions) was coined specifically and solely to apply to Jews, and is attributed to William Marr (spellings differ).

To claim not to be anti-Semitic because one does not have animus towards Palestineans or other Semites, is a misuse of the term. Continual and deliberate use of it incorrectly may, in itself, be proof of anti-Semitism by the user.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM

Claiming someone is anti-semitic, in the purely racist way that it was coined, when they are critical of the actions of the government of Israel (as are many Jewish people both wirhin the state and internationally) is also a misuse of the term

Continual and deliberate use of it incorrectly may, in itself, be proof of an attempt to discredit such critics and their protests by the user.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:09 PM

McGrath,
"I have always understood that it is not very easy to get a photograph of a bullet in flight. "

Is that really what you understood me to mean about evidence, rather than people taking cover, injured people, bullet strike marks, mentions on the live feed, etc.?
We have that scene of blood that I acknowledge preceded the landings.
We have no one killed by a rifle bullet. Only by the short range 9mm pistol rounds.
Carol, do you withdraw the claim that your video clip showed four rifle shots used to murder someone on the deck?

The one person not killed by 9mm had a small container of lead shot in his temple not recognised as coming from a firearm.
Slingshot perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM

Talking of non-responses; anti Semitism continues to be the red-herring of this thread.
There has been no evidence whatever of anti-Semitism on this thread - if this is not true, please point out the examples.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM

"The one person not killed by 9mm had a small container of lead shot in his temple not recognised as coming from a firearm.
Slingshot perhaps? "

NO Keith - please read the autopsy report I quoted

Cegdet Kiliclar, 38 the photographer 'armed' only with his camera

"One gunshot wound: middle of forehead"

Dr Haluk Ince, the chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, said that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other victim suffered multiple wounds.
He added that all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds.
Of the other round, he said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in FIREARMS.
It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain."

There are a variety of riot control 'non-lethal' weapons and rounds they can fire at crowds, although these are generally considered to be "less-lethal" rounds anything fired from a gun has the potential to be deadly if used contrary to recommended usage

These rounds are fired from a 40-mm gun -- either a single-shot launcher (for greater accuracy) or a multi-launcher that can have five or six rounds loaded at once.
The guns are similar to military grenade launchers

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM

Carol, do you withdraw the claim that your video clip showed four rifle shots used to murder someone on the deck?

Where did I make this claim?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

Carol, you actually said,"And you can quite clearly see the guy in the last video I posted firing his gun. You can see the recoil. And the passenger in question did end up dead, with several bullets in his chest and head."
The soldier in the video is seen firing a rifle. The video captions say the victim is killed by four shots from the rifle. Emmas report said no one was killed with a rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:36 PM

It is not even clear that the rifle in the video is actually fired.
You claimed to be able to see recoil.
I could not and there is certainly no muzzle flash which should be prominent in that semi darkness.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:42 PM

I saw a report from someone with some expertise on weapons and the kinds of weapons being used by Israel, and he gave some probabilities about what he thinks it most likely is. I've lost track of it among all of the other bits of information I've accumulated, but I'll try to find it and put it here.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM

By the way, he said he thinks it's some kind of pump action gun, and you can quite clearly see the Israeli pumping the gun, which, I guess is evidence of the gun being fired.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM

I see no reason not to use the term anti-Zionist to reflect objection to current policies by Netanyahu.

What is it with these apologists saying that the people onboard the Mavi Marmara were
not really shot at point blank by the Israeli commandos? Who cares what weapons were used? They killed people and innocent ones at that.

The passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara killed no one and even helped wounded Israeli commandos.

It's pretty clear what happened.

Biden and Obama are both apologists for Zionist murders.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 02:57 PM

Probably this is simplistic, but I must say again that: Israel, as a nation in this world of nations, ought to be able to be challenged when it is wrong without the challenger automatically being labeled antisemitic. ----- It was wrong when Martin Gibson did that a year or two back, and it is wrong in recent times as well. I understand the sensitivities and also the realities involved.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

I don't really plan to get back into this discussion. But, I feel I should share a couple of perspectives I have found. Hope it contributes to the discussion...I'm outt'a here.


The Psychological Impact of the Second Intifada on Israeli Society:
http://dev.pij.org/jcms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=728&

I could not get beyond the abstract for the paper below, but it seems interesting.

The phychological Impact of Terriorism:A double Edged Sword
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3791018

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

Thanks Carol.
Pump action might be paintball or plastic, but not 9mm so not fatal shots.
Emma, that other fatal profectile might as you say have been fired from a paintball, low lethality weapon and be an unlucky hit.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:22 PM

"that other fatal profectile might as you say have been fired from a paintball, low lethality weapon and be an unlucky hit."

So what do you think it was firing Keith? hardly a paintball if it had "pellets usually used in shotguns"

"A pepper-spray projectile, also called a pepper-spray ball, or pepper-spray pellet is a projectile weapon made up of a powdered chemical that irritates eyes and nose (see pepper spray).
These less-lethal weapons launch a fragile ball which breaks upon impact and releases a super irritant powder called PAVA (capsaicin II) pepper

Although generally considered non-lethal when properly used (targets should exclude the face, eyes, throat or spine), deaths have occurred when they have been fired at inappropriate areas.
In one well publicized incident, in 2004 where the Boston Police Department during crowd control situation killed 21-year-old Victoria Snelgrove using a pepper-spray projectile weapon"

But this was NOT paint, NOT pepper.......

It was multiple 9mm shots mainly to the head which caused the fatal wounds of those victims autopsied - however, most reports suggest that six victims are still missing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM

...an unlucky hit...

Like the tear gas grenade aimed at Emily Henochowicz that destroyed her eye, for example.

It's taken a generation and more for the truth about Bloody Sunday to be recognised and accepted by the political successors of the government that was responsible. It'll probably take as long for the same to happen for Bloody Monday.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

The guy was saying that Israel uses pump action 22s. He said if several 22 shells were pumped into someone at very close range, it could kill them. And we don't know that no one was killed with 22s because there are still several missing passengers who have not been accounted for. He also said that these guns might not have a flash.

He said it can't be a paint ball gun because it doesn't have the thing on top that would hold the pellets. I don't have time to find it right now, but I'll look when I have more time.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:52 AM

I can't find it, and I don't remember where I saw it. But it does provide possible answers to your questions, Keith. I'll keep an eye out and maybe I'll find it eventually.


On another note...

In this piece, Ali Abunimah does a good job of proving that the Israelis were firing indiscriminately at people when they were not under any threat.

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/20299014

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:22 AM

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/european-and-american-weapons-used-in-israeli


This article talks about the origin of some of the weapons and equipment used by the Israelis. And it has this to say about paintball guns...

"Israeli propaganda made much of the fact that the Gaza Freedom Flotilla hijackers "only" used paintball guns (that is until they started shooting people with live ammunition), as if this was somehow a "safe" or even a nonviolent thing to do! Paintball is considered by many people a sport where opposing teams hunt each other down and fire projectiles which explode against a target marking them with paint. Everywhere that this activity is legal, it is strictly regulated for safety, because firing paintballs at a person who is not wearing protective gear, especially a face mask, can result in serious injury including loss of eyesight and possibly even death. Firing paintball guns indiscriminately against unprotected civilians is an incredibly reckless and inherently violent and dangerous thing to do."

So what purpose is there in using paintball guns? My own theory, considering the fact that all of the paint used was red, and the fact that people appear to have difficulty figuring out what is paint and what is blood, is that they used it to confuse people about what they were seeing, and to cause them to think they were seeing paint when they were actually seeing blood.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:27 AM

Etymology <> meaning. It doesn't matter what the individual parts of a compound word "mean". It doesn't matter what language they came from, or what they meant in that language. What matters is how a language community uses the word. The word "antisemitic" is used by speakers of English to mean "prejudice, hatred, violence (etc) against Jews." It doesn't matter a rat's ass that Arabic is called a "Semitic" language. What matters is how the vast majority of the speakers of English use the word "antisemitic." That's what it means for a word to "mean" something. Usage. Not etymology.

You might as well say I don't wear "glasses" because the lenses are made of plastic. Totally misses the point.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:57 AM

Rather than start a new thread, I'm adding this here. Poland has arrested an Israeli believed to be involved in the passport misuse and the murder in Dubai under a European warrant. Germany wants him extradited to face trial there. Israel is apparently demanding he is released to Israel.

Telegraph version of story

Meanwhile Blair is on the air about changing the blockade. He wants the list of items changed from permitted to prohibited and to include rebuilding materials, monitored so as not to be used by Hamas. Also that materials should not go in via sea but through Ashdod and overland.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM

McGrath, this is an emotive subject, and we are discussing violent death, but can we try to be rational and objective?
I would be happy to start discussing the Northern Ireland conflict again, but not on this thread.
Carol is a passionate supporter of tha Palestinian cause, and anti Israeli. That does not mean anti Semitic. I say she is not and distance myself from those who do.

Carol I think that indiscriminate shooting would result in many people with few wounds, not 8 people with many wounds.
I think we should give credit for the use of riot control weapons rather than lethal ones, imperfect though they are.
I note that on all previous and subsequent boardings, where the soldiers were not attacked, they did not fire their pistols.
I think the murder video was being dishonest in its captioning.
Also, the attempt to discredit the boat video was dishonest.

Do we have any more information on the 6 missing?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:54 AM

Carol I think that indiscriminate shooting would result in many people with few wounds, not 8 people with many wounds.

Keith, there were many people with few wounds. And a few people with many wounds. There are no hard figures because some people are missing and it's difficult to get information about everyone at this time, but the number of wounded is at least 30 and could be as high as 60, and the dead are at least 9 and could be as high as 19. I would say that 30 wounded people is certainly an indication of indiscriminate shooting.

The Israelis did fire their weapons on the other boats. They didn't use live fire, but they did use rubber bullets, tasers, and paint pellets on unprotected people. And they beat the people in the other boats, and abused them in many other ways. On previous flotillas, they use force in other ways, for instance ramming an aid boat and nearly sinking it, and various kinds of abuse.

But since they started using live fire before they boarded the Mavi Marmara, it cannot be argued that they were acting in self-defense when they did so, so they must have had an intention to kill people on that ship before they ever boarded it. And as we can see in the photographic evidence that Ali Abunimah presents, they were firing indiscriminately at passengers in situations where they were not being attacked or threatened.

I appreciate your not being willing to participate in the inappropriate use of the word "anti-Semitism", Keith. But I would put this differently...

Carol is a passionate supporter of tha Palestinian cause

I am a passionate supporter of human rights. I do not differentiate between groups of people when it comes to the issue of human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:01 AM

"Also, the attempt to discredit the boat video was dishonest."

I Disagree Keith on the basis that the video of the boat tied up and the video of the attacking boats in the second video do not corroborate each other.

They are very different for a number of reasons, wheter it be firing of what appear mainly to be paintballs, but may be other weapons too, whether it be the fact that the boats come close enough to shoot and then pull away, whether it be that the boats in the second video are moving a LOT faster, and bumping up off the sea with each wave, or even whether it just be that fact that the troops in the second video are alert and actually doing something.

For those navy seals to come in at speed, shoot paintballs at passengers and then to tie their boat alongside and then to just sit and take it while water, plates and stun grenades were lobbed at them is inconsistent with the actions of any boarding party.

The helicopters dropped their troopers quickly and efficiently as you might expect from a special forces team, and that is what I would expect from navy seals too.

The boat video looks like a medieval siege in which the invaders have suddenly realized they forgot their ladder.

It just doesn't add up.

Why would they stop firing paintballs and then, once they came under 'attack' just sit and allow themselves to be humiliated.

Sorry, but the question of whether or not it was faked is a pertinent one, and consistent with the faked weapons find and the faked radio communications.

None of the passengers videos have been discredited yet.

The other video of the passengers on deck walking through metal posts etc is more clearly a fake for all the reasons explained in the video.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:02 AM

Further to American media failure to report dissenting Jewish voices, this event was held yesterday:

Washington: Jewish Rabbis to lead prayers for Gaza aid flotilla victims

Quote: "The organisers say: "If you can't come - you can still help: by insisting that national media and your local media and the progressive media as well cover this event - it's a way of making clear that the entire Jewish people should not be blamed for this morally distorted action on the part of Israel - and you don't have to be Jewish to make that point to the media." "

Fromm Googling I didn't find too much about it, bar this and a brief article in the Jerusalem Post.

Was it covered anywhere?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:54 AM

Lox, the boat crew in the video are trying to get a hook on to the ship.
They are not tied up alongside.
They have a ladder ready to be pulled up.

Carol, how do we know people are still missing please.

Carol, I accept that Israelis used force on other vessels, but not lethal force. As they were not attacked they had no reason to use their pistols.

I know we have the scene of blood, but do you have any other evidence that live fire was used prior to boarding?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 08:55 AM

CarolC writes "I am a passionate supporter of human rights. I do not differentiate between groups of people when it comes to the issue of human rights."

Not true, based on what I've read by her. CarolC is specialised in US and Israel abuses (the biggest problems in the world - she says), but luckily the US and Israel are not the worst human rights abusers in the world. Therefore, the worst states, regimes and political groups in the world are not her main concern, and she can't be considered a passionate supporter of human rights in general.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM

"but luckily the US and Israel are not the worst human rights abusers in the world."

Carol may disagree with you there.

And knowing Carol she will have alot of evidece to back up her claim.


In addition to which, Carol takes responsibility for human rights abuses which are conducted in her name and with her tax dollars.


Also, In order to argue that she is NOT a supporter of human rights generally, you have to show where she is in agreement with human rights.

You can't do that which makes your comment wrong.


Carol will admit that by being American, she is complicit in American human rights abuses done in her name and funded using her tax dollars, therefore in order to be truly exhonorated of your accusation she must speak out against Human rights abuses carried out by the USA, Great Britain and Israel.


Roberto, your reasponable facade is slipping and giving way to slander.

Is this because your are runnng out of on topic arguments?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM

TYPO:

"Also, In order to argue that she is NOT a supporter of human rights generally, you have to show where she is in agreement with human rights"

Should read:

"Also, In order to argue that she is NOT a supporter of human rights generally, you have to show where she is in agreement with human rights abuses"

Until you can find examples of her being in favour of any human rights abuses you must find an example of this.

Unfounded accusations against people are called slander and lies.

You should back up your claim or retract it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM

I disagree with much CarolC presents as fact, which I see as conjecture, but IMO she does care about human rights, and I understand her point about being more concerned about those violations her taxes are paying for.



"Carol will admit that by being American, she is complicit in American human rights abuses done in her name and funded using her tax dollars, therefore in order to be truly exhonorated of your accusation she must speak out against Human rights abuses carried out by the USA, Great Britain and Israel."

However, I would like to point out that MANY nations get aid from the US, including Palestinians. So I hope she continues to apply her standards of behaviour to all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM

"MANY nations get aid from the US, including Palestinians"

Not military.

None of the aid given to palestinians by the US can be used to hurt Israelis.

The US and the UK Arms Israel with the most current high tech stuff available.

Hamas commits human rights abuses.

But Hamas' human rights abuses are not facilitated with my alleged consent and my taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM

Lox, the tax dollars argument doesn't always work. CarolC uses the tax dollars argument to explain that she feels responsible for the US and Israel, and therefore she concentrates her attention most of all on them. I take note of that, no problem. But when she judges the US and Israel the two biggest problems and cause of problems in the world, I can participate to this discussion as well, because it is an universal assessment that we all can debate.

I posted a summary previously about the Freedom House Report 2010. I don't swear they are right (but I'm pretty sure CarolC is wrong), they propose a list of the countries with the worst human rights conditions, different from what CarolC says. Is it possible to discuss that? I think that the passionate defenders of human rights should be interested.

From the Report:

"Included in this report are nine countries judged to have the worst human rights conditions: Burma, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Libya, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Also included is one territory, Tibet.

The report also includes eight additional countries near the bottom of Freedom House's ratings scale: Belarus, Chad, China, Cuba, Guinea, Laos, Saudi Arabia, and Syria. The two territories
of South Ossetia and Western Sahara are also included in this group."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:59 AM

"CarolC uses the tax dollars argument to explain that she feels responsible for the US and Israel"

No. You misunderstand.

She does not "feel" responsible.

She IS responsible.

Her country is a democracy.

Her government claims to represent her with her consent.

Her government tells lies to the electorate in her country to justify its actions in her name with her money.

The above are not opinions, they are facts.


Carol has also qualified that many of these places are in the state they are in with the help of US, UK or Israeli backing.

We - the allies - the good guys - if not involved directly, are often involved behind the scenes.


A perfect example is BB's recent example of the unrest in Kyrgyzstan.

Why is there unrest there?

Surprise surprise - there's a US base there that the locals don't want anymore.

The US backed leader who wants to keep the US military presence was already kicked out of office I thought ... that was the last I knew a couple of months ago ...

... since then there has been political unrest and lots have been dying ...

... ring any bells?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM

"The US backed leader who wants to keep the US military presence was already kicked out of office I thought ... that was the last I knew a couple of months ago ...

... since then there has been political unrest and lots have been dying ..."


So, the US is at fault because we did not go in and force them to accept the leader we wanted??? And the present government ( that the US is NOT supporting) is allowing this atrocity, but that makes it the US's fault?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:23 AM

Not what I said BB,

I said that the last I knew there was a conflict betwen the people and the US puppet.

A few months later, there is still unrest.

There is also still a US base.

If the new non US backed government was being respected by the US why hasn't the US base been closed down?


The US is at the heart of this stuff and of that I have no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:26 AM

"The US is at the heart of this stuff and of that I have no doubt. "

I have far less faith in the competance of the US government than you do. I doubt very much if the present administration has any idea of what is happening, or why, and is certainly not capable of manipulating it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM

I've partecipated to demonstrations on these problems since the Seventies. We used to put the blame on the US and the Western Countries, mine included. First because of Vietnam, then Chile, and so on. We had many good points. But not only good points, and we've often been not so attentive to other problems. We've been deaf towards Eastern Europe under Moscow, for instance. Nowadays, there still are many and important causes to put the blame on the US, the Western Countries, Israel. But that is not the whole story, today more than decades ago. It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:42 AM

"It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel."

What causes you to draw the conclusion that anyone on here has no sympathy for sufferers of human rights abuses not committed by the US or Israel?

I don't see any indication that anybody here feels a lack of sympathy for any sufferers of human rights.

I do see that Carol refuses to give tacit consent to her government and its allies for the human rights abuses they commit.

Carol accepts the reality that as a participant in the US democracy, any action committed by her government, good or evil, is her responsibility.

You will find she has a lot to say about US domestic and foreign policy.

The actions of her government that she finds most upsetting are the human rights abuses it supports, directly and indirectly all around the world.

So your criticisms don't apply.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:50 AM

Roberto, your knowledge of my activities with regard to human rights is confined to two threads in the Mudcat. That doesn't qualify you to disagree with me when I say that I don't differentiate between groups on the subject of human rights.

When I state the the US and Israel are responsible for most of the problems in the world, I'm just stating a fact. And that website you posted a link for is pitifully incomplete. And it also doesn't discuss how many of the atrocities it lists are the product of interference by countries like the US and Israel. Let's take the killing fields of Cambodia. That never would have happened had the US not already killed millions of people there through its covert bombing campaign of that country. Pol Pot was able to rise to power because of the anger the people of Cambodia felt towards the president of Cambodia, who had assured the people of that country that they would not be bombed by the US, and because we utterly destroyed that society and its ability to function. Your list doesn't even mention the US' covert bombing campaign of Cambodia or the millions of people killed by it.

Let's pick Somalia as an example of a conflict for which the US is responsible. Every time the people in Somalia try to create order in their country and assert their right to self-determination, the US, though covert means and with the assistance of the Kenyan military, which the US supports, destroys it. The US is fighting a proxy resource war in Somalia and has no intention of allowing the Somalis to assert their right to self-determination. Other Western countries have been complicit in the state of affairs in that country also, through over fishing and dumping toxic waste in Somali waters. We never hear about the atrocities being committed in Somalia by the US and other Western countries (sometimes through their proxies, the Kenyans). We only ever hear about the bad things done by Somalis.

I support the right of the Somalis to be left alone to live their lives without the interference of powerful Western governments. As long as Somalia has oil and it's easy for Western countries to take advantage of its lack of ability to defend itself from other countries over fishing and dumping toxic waste in its waters, I don't see any possibility that they will ever be free of such interference.

Let's look at Sudan. We always hear about the terrible things the Sudanese government is doing, but we don't ever hear about the atrocities being committed by the rebels who are being backed by the US and Israel. Sudan is yet another proxy war in which atrocities are being committed by the people who are being supported by the US and also Israel.

Let's look at Sri Lanka and the massacres of civilians there not too long ago. The Sri Lankan military was trained (and no doubt armed) by Israel.

Most of the dictatorial regimes in the world were put in place and are being propped up by the US. We have training schools in this country for despots to learn how to take power and keep it. If you scratch the surface of almost every conflict in the world, you will see just below it the activities of the CIA and/or Mossad, and you will see some valuable resource or balance of power equation at the bottom of it.

And that's not even beginning to address economic atrocities being committed by the US, and the strife and human rights catastrophes that arise from those.

Roberto, unlike you, I do not support the privileging of any group(s) over any other group(s). I am a passionate supporter of human rights for all groups of people, not just the Palestinians. I will admit that I do side with the indigenes whenever there is a conflict between them and any interlopers in their territory. A group's right to self-determination does not include a right to dispossess, displace, or subjugate another people. I do not differentiate between groups of people with regard to human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

"It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel."

How about this: your indignation about something you suppose about someone you've never met, is neither here nor there. And nor does your 'indignation' about what you imagine to be the case concerning another poster that you've never met, have anything whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread. Apart from perhaps a petty attempt to discredit said poster, who it would seem posts on subjects that you appear to object to seeing openly debated. So, why not go and start a "Fans of CarolC Thread!" if you're so interested in surmising about her, and you can ask her what cereal she has for breakfast and what her favourite colour is there, and leave other posters on this thread to discuss the subject that it was created for.. Just a thought ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:13 PM

"It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel."

All suffering people have my sympathy, and they also have my interest. But that's not the point or the purpose of my activities when I engage in discussions like this one. From my perspective, discussions like this one are opportunities to reveal the truth about atrocities for which I have been made complicit. Sympathy is nice, but it isn't going to save any lives. Telling the truth about atrocities being committed in my name and/or with my tax dollars can ultimately save lives.

I have a very big problem with the propaganda campaigns being waged against the governments and/or groups who are in the cross hairs of the US and Israel's imperialist agenda, however. I may have a lot of sympathy for the people in Iran, for instance, but all of the bloviating in the US about human rights abuses in that country aren't really because my government or the media in my country really give a shit about the people of Iran. It's for the purpose of softening us up for an eventual attack on that country. That's how it was done in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. So when you participate in that kind of collective show of outrage, rather than helping the people of the countries in question, and ensuring that their human rights will be upheld, you are actually helping the imperialist agenda of the US and you help to insure that the human rights of the people in those countries will erode even further. So I don't participate in that kind of activity. Those who do are not helping anyone's human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:39 PM

I doubt very much if the present administration has any idea of what is happening, or why, and is certainly not capable of manipulating it.

I'd say we are manipulated by Israel far more than the other way. There is no political heart in this country to criticize Israel.

"Included in this report are nine countries judged to have the worst human rights conditions: Burma, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Libya, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Also included is one territory, Tibet.

You have confused "have the worst human rights conditions" with "commit the most human rights violations." Most of the US's human rights violations are overseas, so we can't be said to have the worst human rights "conditions" in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM

I must have been thinking of a list posted by someone else when I made my response about Cambodia. I don't think I've seen the list you're referring to, mousethief, but your point about it is right on the money.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM

My comment was about Kyrgyzstan.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

By the way, Roberto, Lox is in a better position to know the extent of my advocacy for human rights around the world than you are, because he has access to my Facebook status updates.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

Double moral makes every attempt to discuss something a waste of time. An example: CarolC writes "Roberto, your knowledge of my activities with regard to human rights is confined to two threads in the Mudcat". I could say exactly the same. But she felt allowed in these two threads to label me as a racist, liar, supporter of the privileging of any group over any other group. I didn't write anything that justifies her excommunications. I won't reply to her in the same style, but I confirm I think her monothematic attitude regarding the US and Israel as the worst countries in the world, that she shares with other people in these two threads, doesn't fit a general human rights defender but a political activist.

Crow Sister, it is true, I've replied to CarolC more than to any other person, but you must admit she has the highest percentage of posts, a machine gun. Besides, she's so touchy when someone criticizes her points, but so ready to directly insult her counterpart, that it is difficult not to react to her remarks. Thank you for you rap and kind suggestion, but the place of CarolC's fan has already been taken, by Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

But she felt allowed in these two threads to label me as a racist, liar, supporter of the privileging of any group over any other group. I didn't write anything that justifies her excommunications. I won't reply to her in the same style, but I confirm I think her monothematic attitude regarding the US and Israel as the worst countries in the world, that she shares with other people in these two threads, doesn't fit a general human rights defender but a political activist.

Roberto, it was you who started the accusations, and you who set the tone. You have been conducting a campaign to silence people by trying to discredit them rather than their arguments.

You do support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state, do you not? I have asked you this question before, but you have not responded to my question. If you do support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state, then you are practicing racism and the privileging of one group over another. Do you or do you not support maintaining a Israel as a Jewish state?

As to the accusation that you have lied about me, a thorough look at your posting history will back me up on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM

"Thank you for you rap and kind suggestion, but the place of CarolC's fan has already been taken, by Lox."

I'm glad you took my post in good humour Roberto! But I'm still not inclined to discuss CarolC or her posting habits or even pressing issues concerning her breakfast cereal, as this thread isn't about her. I read her posts the same as I read everyone else's and I weigh up what she has to say along with everything else posted here - as I'm sure we all do.

As for Lox, he can speak for himself. But no doubt if he disagreed with CC on something, he'd argue against it exactly the same as with any other poster.

And that's as much as I have to say about the fascinating CarolC :)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

I have just seen evidence that the footage that the government of Israel released showing the passengers on the Mavi Marmara attacking the Israelis was faked. The footage I saw shows that the ship in the Israeli footage is not the Mavi Marmara, and suggests that it is a sister ship to the Mavi Marmara (very similar, but not identical), that was recently sold.

I am hesitant to post the video, because the person speaking engages in some speculation about Jewish mythology that I can't verify, and so I'm reluctant to pass that along. But if pictures of both ships are examined, you can see that the ship in the Israeli video is not the Mavi Marmara.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

CarolC, I've already explained my opinions on this twice, the second time in a reply to Little Hawk. I'll do it again (now I'm going to watch Italy vs Paraguay). I find comical the way you ask questions playing the Spanish Inquisition. Imagine what would you say if I'd make use of this technique with you: double moral, as I said. You deserve respect (because of you advocacy for human rights around the world etc), while the person that disagrees with you deserves a Spanish Inquisition treatment (Monty Python's version).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM

What does "double moral" mean? I don't think that translates directly from the Italian very well.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

I mean when you apply a moral standard to your party and a different one to your opponents. You are free to offend your antagonists, but woe betide if they say something that could possibly be regarded as an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM

Ah. The English term is "double standard".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM

Thanks mousethief.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM

I hope no-one minds me repeating this query, but it may have got lost.

I'm interested to know if - as indeed the organisers hoped and requested - the prayers from Jewish Rabbis on behalf of the flotilla victims which was supposed to have been held in front of the White House yesterday, was actually reported anywhere in the US either nationally or locally? I Googled earlier today and couldn't find any news stories about it. Maybe people in the US will be able to enlighten?


[Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister - PM
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:02 AM

Further to American media failure to report dissenting Jewish voices, this event was held yesterday:

Washington: Jewish Rabbis to lead prayers for Gaza aid flotilla victims

Quote: "The organisers say: "If you can't come - you can still help: by insisting that national media and your local media and the progressive media as well cover this event - it's a way of making clear that the entire Jewish people should not be blamed for this morally distorted action on the part of Israel - and you don't have to be Jewish to make that point to the media." "

Fromm Googling I didn't find too much about it, bar this and a brief article in the Jerusalem Post.

Was it covered anywhere?]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM

Googling Jewish Rabbis prayer Gaza June 14" turned up absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:18 PM

"I mean when you apply a moral standard to your party and a different one to your opponents."
Like if you condemn Terrorist tactics by, say, the IRA or Hamas and excuse incidents like Sabra and Shatila because it was a part of the defence of Israel, do you mean - plenty of examples of that.
Sorry Roberto; haven't had time to check your claim that you haven't accused anybody of anti-Semitism - if I am mistaken, I apologise in advance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

Googling Rabbis Gaza did not turn up any story on the protest on the AP website, nor on the BBC News website.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM

CarolC, I've already explained my opinions on this twice, the second time in a reply to Little Hawk. I'll do it again (now I'm going to watch Italy vs Paraguay). I find comical the way you ask questions playing the Spanish Inquisition. Imagine what would you say if I'd make use of this technique with you: double moral, as I said. You deserve respect (because of you advocacy for human rights around the world etc), while the person that disagrees with you deserves a Spanish Inquisition treatment (Monty Python's version).


You said you were going to answer my question again. I don't see an answer here. I only see a deflection of the question.

I also notice you don't mind playing the Spanish Inquisition with others. I guess it's ok for you to expect other people to answer your questions, but asking questions of you is the "Spanish Inquisition". Interesting double standard there.

In the absence of an honest answer to my question, and in light of the fact that you are defending the behavior of the government of Israel, drawing the conclusion that you support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is pretty unavoidable.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM

I have to backtrack on my post about the ships not being the same. It's possible that the differences between the ships can be accounted for by the fact that the Israeli footage was taken through some kind of night vision technology. Until I see more evidence that can't be accounted for in this way, I'm not going to venture to say whether or not the ships are the same.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM

Cheers Mousethief, I've found virtually nothing likewise.

I stumbled on this Washington: Jewish Rabbis to lead prayers for Gaza aid flotilla victims while Googling around subjects to do with the flotilla. Asa said, in particular this quote caught my attention:

"The organisers say: "If you can't come - you can still help: by insisting that national media and your local media and the progressive media as well cover this event - it's a way of making clear that the entire Jewish people should not be blamed for this morally distorted action on the part of Israel - and you don't have to be Jewish to make that point to the media." ".

Consequently I've been curious to know if the story has actually been covered in the media anywhere. Doesn't look like so far.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM

I haven't seen any mention of it in the corporate US media.

We are literally under a media blackout here with regard to things like that. They are in Israel, as well. A witness at one of the demonstrations against the flotilla massacre in Israel said that Israeli media showed up in the area where the protests were taking place, but aimed the cameras away from the crowds, giving the impression that no one was protesting. And the caption supported that misinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

Mousethief,

"You have confused "have the worst human rights conditions" with "commit the most human rights violations." Most of the US's human rights violations are overseas, so we can't be said to have the worst human rights "conditions" in this country."

Bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM

CC: "I haven't seen any mention of it in the corporate US media.
We are literally under a media blackout here with regard to things like that."

Aye, so I'm coming to realise. This must feel profoundly oppressive for conscientious Jews who strive to have their voices publicly heard, but are silenced just because they don't say what the establishment wants them to.

"They are in Israel, as well."

I've seen YouTube videos of protests at the flotilla attack in Israel, where protesters describe equivalent issues there regards the mainstream media towing the government line. The protesters say they know that the mainstream media won't cover their protest, but depend on the role of 'social media' for communicating their efforts to the public at large.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

Aye, so I'm coming to realise. This must feel profoundly oppressive for conscientious Jews who strive to have their voices publicly heard, but are silenced just because they don't say what the establishment wants them to.

I'm sure it does, but it's not the worst they have to deal with. It is an extremely common experience for Jews who speak out to be blacklisted for jobs, especially if they work in the media, and to be ostracized from their communities and even sometimes their families. And they are constantly being called things like "self-hating Jew" and "kapo" and other kinds of character assassination. Recently I was contacted in a private message in Facebook by a Jewish person who thought I was Jewish. He called me a self-hating Jew and a kapo.

This is why I have the most respect for Jews who are doing this important work. Because they have a lot more to lose than most of us when they speak out.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

"It is an extremely common experience for Jews who speak out to be blacklisted for jobs, especially if they work in the media, and to be ostracized from their communities and even sometimes their families."

Yeah, I saw another YouTube (wish I had bookmarked some of these things) where yet another (silent in the face of abuse) protest by American Jewish objectors to Israel's actions in Gaza (mainly women I think) were being heckled and abused by other Jews who were filming and photographing, them while shouting out:

"We will find out where you live! We will disrupt your lives!", "We know who you are!" "We will disrupt your social lives"

and so-on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

Lots more flotillas and aid convoys on the way, and quite a few lawsuits, too...

http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=16049

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:00 PM

""It arouses my indignation when I hear, or read, of people that profess to be human rights champions and show no sympathy nor interest for the suffering in the world if not caused by the US and Israel.""

Of course this story engages the attention of people posting to this thread, just as it does the attention of people watching it on the news media.

It is after all the story which is currently unfolding, as well as being the topic of this thread.

If the thread were about other atrocities, it is those events we would be discussing.

You, Roberto, seem to be suffering from the fallacious belief that sticking to the topic of a thread is somehow an indication of lack of interest in anything else.

Broaden your education by looking at some of the threads which are not about your heroes, and you will find that we all contribute to many threads on many subjects.

Just like you, we all have lives outside of Mudcat, and some of us are very active in other areas of support for human rights, so you are simply not qualified to comment on our attitudes, because you know nothing about us.

However, we are in a position to note that you are a determined apologist for the Israeli government, and the IDF, and also that you make determined attempts to distract attention from the actions of Israeli forces, by attempting to take the thread off topic, and introduce other human rights abuses. This is not opinion, it is fact. It can be proven by even a cursory examination of your posts here.

So we have a greater understanding of who and what you are, than you can possibly claim to have about who and what we are.

If there are other issues which you think should be discussed, start your own threads, and you will find that they will be discussed.

Those issues are of great importance to us, as well as to you, but you cannot conduct a serious and coherent debate on a dozen different subjects in one thread.

This thread is about Israel,so naturally that country is mentioned quite a lot.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:56 AM

A Hamas leader gets a chance to speak to the people of the US

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 05:03 AM

Carol, you have been very open in your thoughts about the landing video being fake.
Should we take it that you consider the bahaviour of the activists to have been so bad that the Israelis might have staged it to discredit them?
But they did not need to stage it did they. The activists really were that vicious in their unprovoked attack on the boarding party.

If the walking through iron video does turn out to be staged, the behaviour of the fake activists is nowhere near as bad as that of the real ones!

Just yesterday you were talking about six or more activists being missing. Do you stand by that?
Do you now accept the the video you posted of Israelis shooting a helpless young activist shows no such thing.
Are you aware that many people think that that the ladder scene shows red paintball strikes not blood, as you did at first?
That would leave no evidence at all of pre-landing live fire.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 05:13 AM

"Do you now accept the the video you posted of Israelis shooting a helpless young activist shows no such thing."

Not established.

The best you have is your reasons for doubting it.

"Are you aware that many people think that that the ladder scene shows red paintball strikes not blood, as you did at first?"

Paint balls do not 'squirt' vast quantities of liquid in the way that that liquid has clearly squirted and poured.

They produce concentrated spots.

"That would leave no evidence at all of pre-landing live fire."

Not true, there is still the eyewiness testimony of the Israeli commander who admits firing 'warning shots' as well as the eyewitnes testimony of scores of passengers from numerous unrelated backgrounds which correlates.


I am curious as to what might make you think that any of your debating adversaries on here might have changed their minds as no new evidence has been presented to refute their position.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 05:42 AM

Lox, the weapon in the supposed murder video is not a 9mm weapon or a paintball gun.
Eight deaths were caused by 9mm, and one by a modified paintball round.
The video does not show a killing.

The ladder scene does show several concentrated re splodges on the bulkhead which are very unlikely to result from running down from the hatch.

Warning shots are not incoming fire. Eyewitnesses also reported activists being thrown in the sea. Both sides lie.

I know that people with closed and blinkered minds will never change their opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 06:11 AM

In the longer version of the ladder scene, one eyewitness says it is blood, but another eyewitness says paint.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM

(Israeli) "Foreign Ministry officials cautioned representatives of the defense establishment that it would be difficult to justify a military operation outside of Israel's territorial waters from both a political and public relations standpoint.

Thus, according to senior figures familiar with the details of the discussions, the Foreign Ministry urged defense officials to launch their operations to stop the flotilla only after the ships had crossed Gaza's maritime boundaries. The ministry's diplomats repeated this request on more than one occasion.

"IF SOMEBODY BREAKS INTO YOUR HOME AND YOU SHOOT HIM AFTER HE ENTERS THE DOORWAY, THERE'S NO PROBLEM IN JUSTIFYING THIS ACTION IN COURT," SAID A SENIOR MINISTRY OFFICIAL. "BUT IF YOU ATTACK THE BURGLAR WHILE HE IS ON HIS WAY TO YOUR HOUSE AT A DISTANCE OF TWO BLOCKS AWAY, THEN YOU HAVE A PROBLEM."

"It was made clear that we can ultimately prove that we acted according to international law, but this will be very complicated and we will absorb many denunciations along the way," the official said."

[From the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reporting on the raid on the flotilla]


Israel immediately attempted to control the coverage of the whole operation by holding the human rights activists incommunicado for several days and by taking all the passengers' recording devices and videos.
In this way the well funded propaganda operation was able to spread its version of events without challenge in the crucially important first few days.

Unlike most of the U.S. mainstream media that simply reprinted Israeli military sources, a few reporters including Max Blumenthal actually investigated some of the Israeli claims.
They found several Israeli misrepresentations (including the infamous doctoring of the released audio tape which claimed to be the radio communication with the Marmara)
As a result, Israel retracted or clarified some of its key false charges.

Blumenthal said: "The lesson of the debacle is that nothing the IDF [the Israeli military] says can be trusted by anyone. Not ever."


Most of the activists are now free and their stories strongly contradict the Israeli version.

However, since many of the mainstream media have now moved on to other stories, Israel's false version of events is still out there and accepted as gospel by many - as this thread serves to demonstrate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:03 AM

Both sides lie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:47 AM

Don(Wyziwyg)T
- True, the two threads got mixed up, I'm not the only one who contributed to the confusion, sorry for that, the operation was a plot you foiled.
- Among the other things you write, some you-don't-know-who-I-am stuff I won't reply to, and a double standard masterpiece: "you are simply not qualified to comment on our attitudes, because you know nothing about us. However, we are in a position to note that you are a determined apologist for the Israeli government, and the IDF".

Jim Carroll
Talking about double standard, you write: "like if you condemn Terrorist tactics by, say, the IRA or Hamas and excuse incidents like Sabra and Shatila because it was a part of the defence of Israel". I've no doubt Sabra and Chatila was an enormous and unjustifiable horror, I accept your definition.

CarolC
-        "You said you were going to answer my question again. I don't see any answer here". I appreciate you didn't call me a liar this time. I had written yesterday I was going away from where I have my PC to watch the football game; today I've been to Rome to attend a Union demonstration; now I'm back and ready to answer your question.
-        I may be wrong, but your question didn't sound like a genuine question in a free search for the truth, but looked more like an interrogation to check if I conform to a correct creed, that someone pretends to be the keeper of, on Israel, the Naqba, etc, to get the qualification Don(Wyziwyg)T talks about. That's why I was perplexed, you know, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Israel/Palestine. I support the Two-State solution. Israel and Palestine. I agree with T. L. Friedman, who some years ago wrote, in an article I've lost (and would like to find again: if someone has it, please tell me), that this solution would mean One State Each, not One and a Half. Not Israel plus the Colonies, nor Palestine plus the mass of the Palestinian refugees returning to Israel instead of to the new Palestinian state. Israel would have to shrink a bit, while Palestine would have to accept the exchange land-for-peace. Another possible solution, in my opinion, is that the Arab state be formed by the new Palestinian part (West Bank and Gaza) unified in a single state with Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

Carol, you have been very open in your thoughts about the landing video being fake.

No I haven't. I posted a video that looked like it proved that the landing video was faked, but I retracted that when I realized that the differences in the ships could be accounted for by the fact that the Israeli video was taken using night vision technology.


Should we take it that you consider the bahaviour of the activists to have been so bad that the Israelis might have staged it to discredit them?

This makes no sense. If their behavior was so bad, the Israelis wouldn't have needed to stage it, would they? The Israelis would need to stage things if the behavior wasn't as bad as the Israelis want us to think it was. And there are still some questions I have based on the video I saw that purported to prove that the landing video was a fake. For instance, the Israeli who was being "thrown overboard". As they said in the video, it doesn't look so much like he's being thrown overboard as it does like he is being let down gently into a lifeboat. So don't have an opinion at this time about whether or not that video was in any way faked, but I do consider it a possibility.


The activists really were that vicious in their unprovoked attack on the boarding party.

The attack was not unprovoked. The Israelis fired first.


Just yesterday you were talking about six or more activists being missing. Do you stand by that?

I have seen different numbers being reported, so I have avoided putting any number. I have consistently said "several". I have not seen any reports that say they have been found. If you have, perhaps you will post them in this thread.


Do you now accept the the video you posted of Israelis shooting a helpless young activist shows no such thing.

Not until I get more information.


Are you aware that many people think that that the ladder scene shows red paintball strikes not blood, as you did at first?

Yes, but that doesn't make them right. And I thought that at first, too, after seeing the lower resolution video. Then I saw the video in a higher resolution and I could see the amount of the red fluid and the way it was running down the wall coming from an open hatch. Paint ball pellets don't behave in that way. This is how they behave. There is a round pattern with streaks radiating outward from a central spot. And they don't cover very much area.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

"Paint ball pellets don't behave in that way"

But didn't YOU say that they were NOT normal paintball pellets? Have you changed your mind on this?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

I support the Two-State solution. Israel and Palestine. I agree with T. L. Friedman, who some years ago wrote, in an article I've lost (and would like to find again: if someone has it, please tell me), that this solution would mean One State Each, not One and a Half. Not Israel plus the Colonies, nor Palestine plus the mass of the Palestinian refugees returning to Israel instead of to the new Palestinian state. Israel would have to shrink a bit, while Palestine would have to accept the exchange land-for-peace. Another possible solution, in my opinion, is that the Arab state be formed by the new Palestinian part (West Bank and Gaza) unified in a single state with Jordan.

Roberto, I appreciate this non-confrontational response from you.

I still need to know, if I am to understand that you are not promoting supremacism, whether or not you feel that the part that remains Israel in the two state solution that you envision, would remain a "Jewish state", and maintain a Jewish majority there.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM

But didn't YOU say that they were NOT normal paintball pellets? Have you changed your mind on this?

I said there were reports that they contained glass fragments. I don't see how glass fragments would alter the splatter pattern of the paint, or significantly alter the paint's behavior in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:04 PM

"I don't see how glass fragments would alter the splatter pattern of the paint, or significantly alter the paint's behavior in any way. "


I do. Even if the paint was the same, which has not been established, the patterns would be different. If fact, the pattern that YOU describe as seeing would indicate that there were NO glass fragments, and a marking dye was being used ( to identify the targets post-action) rather than paint ( which is easily removed). No proof either way, but have you considered anything other than what you decided is the only allowable case?

YOU keep making pronouncements as to what things MUST be, without considering what they MIGHT be.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:12 PM

Israel, the existing Israel, the State of Israel, the member of the UN.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:14 PM

beardedbruce, perhaps you can explain to me how a paintball pellet that contains glass fragments could hit a wall and explode and not leave a pattern like the ones in the picture I posted in my response to Keith. Explain how glass fragments would alter the behavior of any liquid substance that is projected at high velocity in pellet form against a hard surface like a wall, impacting it, exploding, and leaving its liquid substance on the wall. How would the presence of glass fragments negate the tendency of things that hit a hard surface at high velocity to want to spread outward in a radiating pattern? Any time something that contains liquid or any other fragmentable substance hits a hard surface at high velocity, it forms a pattern that radiates away from the point of impact. Even human bodies falling from tall buildings. How would the presence of glass fragments alter this behavior?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:15 PM

Israel, the existing Israel, the State of Israel, the member of the UN.

Right. Would this Israel be a "Jewish state"? And would it maintain a Jewish majority?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

I think I've answered yet. Now my turn to ask: do you want the missing State of Palestine to be built, or the existing State of Israel to be turned into something different?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

Look at the video clip here.
It contains a sequence deleted from both versions you posted Carol.
Inbetween the ladder and the laser spot sequences, at about 39 minutes.
The cameraman investigates and pronounces it to be paint.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5tTjSO542VYJ:israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2010/06/raw-video-from-mavi-marmara.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:25 PM

CarolC,

And would Jordan remain an ARAB state, and have an Arab Moslim majority?

The 1923 treaty creating Jordan as the ARAB MOSLIM HOMELAND, and prohibiting Jews from settling there, which gave the Moslims 77% of the Mandate Palestine land, left the remaing Mandate Palestine AS THE JEWISH HOMELAND. Arab Moslims were not prohibited from settling there, but it was to be the JEWISH HOMELAND. That was the last set of boprders agreed to by BOTH sides- so I do not know why you have never answered why Israel should go to Pre-1967 borders, which the Arab nations NEVER agreed to while they existed. Look at the peace treaty between Jordan and Israel- and the treaty between Egypt and Israel.


re the pellets- the glass would cause clumping of paint, so the pattern would be different- I did NOT say it would be what you say you saw. THAT seems to be a thinner liquid than the normal paint, such as the marking dye I commented it might be- at least from your description

Try the following: take a bunch of ballons- put water with dye in some, paint in others, and paint and some sand in others. Drop them from a standard height, and see the splash patterns. Now, which looks MOST like what you claim you see?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM

Carol, you were prepared to believe the landing video faked, to discredit the activists.
You must then accept that their behaviour does discredit them, because it was not faked.

The murder video does not just claim to be of a killing, but claims it to be the murder of a particular individual.
How can that not be a lie?
The only deaths were by 9mm and the one modified paintball.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM

the State of Israel, the member of the UN

Right- the U.N. - whose sanctions, rulings & procedures israel routinely violates..............

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

I think I've answered yet.

I don't think you have answered yet. I am not aware of any UN document that specifies that a Jewish majority should be maintained in Israel. In fact, there are numerous documents that require Israel to allow the refugees to return. And the UN also does not specify that Israel should be a "Jewish state", and in fact, requires Israel to extend exactly the same rights to non-Jews as it does to Jews. So I ask again - do you support maintaining Israel as a Jewish state with a Jewish majority?

Now my turn to ask: do you want the missing State of Palestine to be built, or the existing State of Israel to be turned into something different?

I want one of two things - either one state for all of its citizens, or two states, each of which are states for all of their citizens. I do not support artificially maintaining a majority of any one group in either state. I see this process happening in the same way it happened in South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:40 PM

Yes, I saw that, Keith. But the cameraman is making that assumption based on the fact that he has seen red paint from paint pellets. I expect that is why the Israelis used red paint... so that people would be confused about what they see. In fact, there is blood in the videos that we know for sure is blood, that is the exact same color as the paint in the pellets. But paint from paint pellets doesn't behave in that way, so I think we can safely say that the cameraman is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM

" I do not support artificially maintaining a majority of any one group in either state."

So you agree that the Jews can settle in Jordan, as it was split off from the original Mandate Palestine and reserved for ONLY Arab Moslims?


And the Arab Christian Palestinians who were driven out of Ramallah in 1948 can reclaim their land, and the Moslims who are there now will all go away?

Tell me how this works again.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM

The Two-State solution as conceived by the UN (Resolution number 181, 29.11.1947): "Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

"so I think we can safely say that the cameraman is wrong."

He was there. Why should we believe you over him?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM

And would Jordan remain an ARAB state, and have an Arab Moslim majority?

beardedbruce, how many times do I have to answer this question before you will accept my answer? I have already answered this one many dozens of times, and yet you keep asking it. Why is that?


re the pellets- the glass would cause clumping of paint

This refutes your own position, then, because the paint is not clumping. It is running freely downward in long drips.


I did NOT say it would be what you say you saw. THAT seems to be a thinner liquid than the normal paint, such as the marking dye I commented it might be- at least from your description

Nothing is being marked in that area. And the quantities are not consistent with dye being used to mark something. You say "what you say you saw". Have you watched the high resolution video I posted? I don't just say I saw it. It's actually there for anyone to see.

Try the following: take a bunch of ballons- put water with dye in some, paint in others, and paint and some sand in others. Drop them from a standard height, and see the splash patterns. Now, which looks MOST like what you claim you see?

Have you watched the video I posted? The blood is dripping down from the opening of hatch. There is no impact point in the video. It's leaking down from an open hatch. The only way that could happen would be to have large quantities of the substance that is being sprayed or poured from the deck above. One way this could happen would be for someone to be shot in an area that causes blood to be sprayed or to gush from a wound. There are reports that the fist person shot was shot in the top of his head. This could result in a spray of blood. Other people were shot in their arteries. This could result in a spray of blood. Or someone bleeding might by lying next to the hatch and their blood could be pooling on the deck surface next to the hatch and blood would be dripping down from that. People did report that the decks were covered in blood. But none of the scenarios you are imagining would produce enough fluid to do what this fluid is doing. And pictures that are verifiably blood have exactly the same color and consistency of the fluid dripping down from the hatch, so you can't say that it is not consistent with the color and consistency of blood.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:59 PM

"re the pellets- the glass would cause clumping of paint

This refutes your own position, then, because the paint is not clumping. It is running freely downward in long drips.


It does NOT refute MY position, it refutes YOURS. I DID NOT SAY WHAT THE IMPACT LOOKED LIKE- YOU DID.


If it does NOT look like that, then YOU were mistaken in claiming it HAD glass fragments.

SO, the beatings of the Israeli IDF members don't cause any blood? YOU have proof that this was NOT Israeli blood dripping down from the deck above, perhaps from the IDF member who will have permanant brain damage from the beating your "Peace" activists gave hime???

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM

The Two-State solution as conceived by the UN (Resolution number 181, 29.11.1947): "Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem".

I conclude from this that you want Israel to be a "Jewish state", and I am inferring that by "Jewish state", you mean a state that maintains a Jewish majority. Please correct me if I am wrong about this, but you are not being very direct in your answers.

If this is the case, and you do support maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel, then I was right that you do support supremacism in Israel. Supremacism is a racist ideology and practice. So I wasn't wrong when I used the term racism in reference to what you support in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

"re the pellets- the glass would cause clumping of paint

This refutes your own position, then, because the paint is not clumping. It is running freely downward in long drips.


It does NOT refute MY position, it refutes YOURS. I DID NOT SAY WHAT THE IMPACT LOOKED LIKE- YOU DID.

This is incorrect. You are saying that glass fragments would cause clumping, and that means that the dripping pattern of the paint proves that the glass would cause clumping. I am saying that you are wrong when you say that glass would cause clumping, because there is no clumping. There is only dripping.


SO, the beatings of the Israeli IDF members don't cause any blood?

Not that much blood, by any stretch of the imagination. However, there were no Israelis on board the ship at the time that this footage was taken. That's why it proves that the Israelis fired first. Nice try - no cigar.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

CarolC: Good grief!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

In what way am I wrong, Roberto?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

Ok. It's been an interesting experience discussing with a sectarian. So long.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

Roberto, I am advocating a country or countries in which NO groups are privileged over any other groups. That makes me NON-sectarian.

You are advocating privileging one group over all other groups. That makes YOU the sectarian.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM

Bruce,

You're missing a big point here.


Paint pellets, upon impact with a hard surface, will splatter in all directions.

Paint pellets containing glass, upon impact with a hard surface, will splatter in all directions.


In both cases you will see the point of impact with splatter radiating out from its centre in a circle.


So your alleged point above, in which you purport to have discovered a flaw in Carols argument is a waste of your time.



We know that if it is blood, it isn't from an Israeli trooper, as they weren't on the ship yet.

And it appears very likely that it isn't paint from a paint ball as there is far too much and it hasn't splatted, but has sprayed.


The idea that the night-vision video was faked is new to me, but before this idea being floated, it was already pretty clear to me that the IDF fired before they landed.


It seems that the IDF faked two other videos, one being the video of the boat being sprayed with water, and the other of the man walking through the metal post.

It is also pretty clear to me that the 'weapons cache' photos were fake, and that the Mavi Marmara "9/11" radio communication was faked.


It wouldn't be incongruous if the night-vision film had been faked.

Of course that doesn't prove anything on its own.

But an interesting point to consider is, that if it is genuine, it would be the only apparent bit of IDF provided evidence not to be discredited.

I'm curious to know more about allegations that it was filmed on the Mavi Marmaras sister ship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM

""you are simply not qualified to comment on our attitudes, because you know nothing about us. However, we are in a position to note that you are a determined apologist for the Israeli government, and the IDF".""

I stand by this comment, because your attitude to the IDF piracy is well documented in this thread. It is there in black and white for all to see.

Your assertion, however, that we do not care about other atrocities, is not provable from anything which we have said here. The fact that we stick to the topic of this thread says nothing about our concern, or lack of concern, for other topics.

That assertion only has meaning if you could show evidence that we have stated that other atrocities are not important. You cannot do so because we have made no such statements. In fact, I have already stated that these matters are important, but should not be discussed on this thread, because they are off the topic of this thread, which is the Israeli attack on the Gaza aid flotilla.

There is already a distraction thread, started by Bobad, where you can discuss any atrocities you choose, other than this one.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 09:55 PM

Lox, I haven't been able to verify that any of the differences that I saw on the ship in the video couldn't be accounted for by night vision technology. The biggest one is the absence of the name of the ship where it should have been. But the letters of the name are blue, and it looks to me like some colors are not able to be shown in video that comes from using night vision technology. Same with a yellow stripe down the side of an upright part of the ship (can't remember what it's called) that is also missing. So I'm not going with the sister ship idea that was suggested in the video that I saw.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 09:58 PM

Here's some video that was smuggled from the Rachel Corrie, in which we can see and hear the guy speaking for the ship tell the Israelis that the Rachel Corrie would be willing to be inspected by a neutral party like the UN.

So now we have proof that it's not weapons that the Israelis were concerned about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60HZqlRDNXU

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:08 AM

You are all missing the point on the ladder scene.
The camera man is concerned that it might be blood.
He asks if it is.
Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint.
If they had been shocked and said it was blood, Carol and co. would hail that as proof.
Instead she says that they can not tell the difference between paint and blood, because she knows it is blood.

Carol, your murder video shows a weapon that caused NONE of the deaths. You and Lox must accept it is a lie.

Lox, why do you think the boat video is fake?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:25 AM

Carol, some peole have questioned the authenticity of the landing video because the ship's painted name does not show up.
It is a thermal imagery video. It appears in black and white only, and the only contrast is between objects at different temperatures.
Any slight temperature difference due to different colour paints would be cancelled out by the heat conducting metal underneath.

The ship is recognisably the M Marmara, and you can match scenes with those captured by activists cameras.

It is genuine, but you and Lox thought the activists behaviour so bad that the Israelis might have staged it!
They did not need to.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:33 AM

"Here's some video that was smuggled from the Rachel Corrie, in which we can see and hear the guy speaking for the ship tell the Israelis that the Rachel Corrie would be willing to be inspected by a neutral party like the UN."

So you ignore the FACT it was the M Marmara that had violence- and bring up the ship where none occurred.

Not exactly "proof that it's not weapons that the Israelis were concerned about."

The prohibited items of the embargo are those items that can be used for terrorist activities- such as the manufacture of those homemade rockets YOU say were not supplied by Iran, and explosives ( gelitin, margerine, etc are used as base materials for some explosives)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:07 AM

Lox, you have posted (an unprovoked attack on me) elsewhere.
Are you not going to respond to the points put to you here?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

"Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint."

WHAT!!?? You mean the peace activists might resort to PROPAGANDA????
(presenting only information that supports their side)



BOTH sides are going to present ONLY what will make them look good, or make the other side look bad. If you don't look at BOTH side's information, you cannot determine what actually happened.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:19 AM

Lox,

So you have proof certain it was not hydraulic fluid? Just asking, since CarolC has determined what it is by divination.

I do not know what it is, nor where it is coming from- but to state ( as CarolC has) that since it does not splatter like paint it must be blood seems to be making a large leap.


It MAY be blood- it might be hydraulic fluid- CarolC states it is too large a quantity to be from a paintball. SHE was the one who said it did not splatter like pain- I gave examples of other items that would splatter differntly, and a method to show that.

A circular splatter will only occur if the paintball ( with whatever content) impacts on THAT surface- if it impacted on a person, the excess would spray off in various patterns- dependent on the volume and the viscosity of the fluid.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:48 AM

"You and Lox must accept it is a lie."

Where is your proof that it is a lie?

We have consistent, corroborating eyewitness testimony from hundreds of passengers, from all sorts of different backgrounds, be they Impartial News reporters, International parliamentarians, Turkish Aid workers or political protesters.

The question is whether or not the other available evidence damages their testimony that live fire was used before the troopers came aboard.

So far, this testimony remains undamaged.

So we have no evidence of lies other than faked evidence from the IDF.


"Lox, why do you think the boat video is fake?"

I believe I gave a quick rundaown of this in an earlier post.


"A circular splatter will only occur if the paintball ( with whatever content) impacts on THAT surface- if it impacted on a person, the excess would spray off in various patterns- dependent on the volume and the viscosity of the fluid."

There isn't that much paint in a paintball.

To produce that kind of spillage you'd need a big baloon to be thrown.


Why this talk of hydraulic fluid?


But lets get to the point - Keiths observations from the video ...

... one guy says - "is that Blood".

Another guy, about 15 feet away from the ladder, says that he doesn't think it is as he doesn't think they're using live fire, but it just paintballs.

He doesn't analyze it closely, nor comment on the behavuour of the liquid as we have ... largely because there was a helicopter above hs head, a navy surrounding him, and a lot of scared people around him.

A minute later, he sees a lazer sight, and ducks, and then makes a comment in his own language, in which iit discernable that he is reporting that the Israeli's could be using live fire or it could be paintballs.

Within a space of about 30 seconds he sees what could be blood and then a lazer sight, and then starts to keep his body down and covered as the possibility that he could be in the line of live fire dawns on him.

Keith, if this is 'proof' that accusations of use of live fire are a lie, then I am a monkeys uncle.


Keith, to clarify my position visavis your posts here and elsewhere, I think you are dishonest to say present yourself as an imaprtial critic with no allegiance, and to criticize otherrs of being partisan, when it is so clear that you are defending the side of the argument you are obviously loyal to right down to the wire.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:00 AM

The missing jigsaw piece from this video which will answer our dilemna is to know whho the reporter with the camera was, and exactly what he said, after he saw the lazer dot, about live fire and paintballs.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM

Lox, you have never said why the boat video could be faked. You only said "It seems that the IDF faked two other videos, one being the video of the boat being sprayed with water, and the other of the man walking through the metal post."
So why do you think the boat video could be faked?

Lox, look at the version of the paint video I provided, not the two from Carol. They check out the liquid, laugh and smile and say it is paint.
They were concerned it was blood. They checked. How could they get it wrong? You and Carol are just closing your minds.

Lox, the murder video claims to show the murder of the 19year Turkish American, but he was killed by 9mm rounds.
The soldier in the video is not using a 9mm weapon, so it must be a lie. Eye witnesses who say otherwise must be lying, just like the eyewitnesses who "saw" wounded being thrown into the sea, and who "saw" helicopters spraying water onto the ship for 3 hours.

Lox, BOTH sides lie.
Open your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:14 AM

Sorry Lox.
You did post this about the boat video
"For those navy seals to come in at speed, shoot paintballs at passengers and then to tie their boat alongside and then to just sit and take it while water, plates and stun grenades were lobbed at them is inconsistent with the actions of any boarding party.

The helicopters dropped their troopers quickly and efficiently as you might expect from a special forces team, and that is what I would expect from navy seals too.

The boat video looks like a medieval siege in which the invaders have suddenly realized they forgot their ladder.

It just doesn't add up."

They had a ladder. You can see it in the boat ready to be pulled up.
It has a line connected to the hook thay are trying to get on board but the activists keep pushing away.

Is that it?
What is not to believe?
That the Activists should be so hostile?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM

"So why do you think the boat video could be faked?"

The only video that I have said could be faked is the one of the speedboat tied up next to the ship.

Is that the one you are asking about?

"Lox, look at the version of the paint video I provided,"

I clicked on your link and went to 39:00 as you suggested.

Did you mean another video?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

"The only video that I have said could be faked is the one of the speedboat tied up next to the ship."


This should read:

"The only video 'of a boat' that I have said could be faked is the one of the speedboat tied up next to the ship."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM

Lox, look at my video at 35.57.
It shows the boat incident from slightly further along the deck. You see it come alongside, the hook being pushed up, the paintball shots, etc.
It proves if proof were needed that the video was genuine.

After the boat sequences comes the "blood" sequence.
The man says it is paintball, not live ammunition. He is told to speak in Nowegian after that.
Can anyone translate?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM

The man who speaks in English and Nowegian is Norwegian activist Espen Goffen .

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

Or maybe Espen Goffeng.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:39 AM

Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint.
If they had been shocked and said it was blood, Carol and co. would hail that as proof.
Instead she says that they can not tell the difference between paint and blood, because she knows it is blood.

Keith, they pronounce it paint only on the basis of a hasty examination during a lot of turmoil on the ship. They have already seen paint from paint pellets having been fired at the ship. It's an assumption hastily made while someone is apparently deliberately trying to confuse them about what they are seeing. But the fact is that paint from paint pellets would behave differently than the stuff we see in the video, so while it's an honest mistake for them to have made, it's pretty obvious that it is nevertheless a mistake.


Carol, your murder video shows a weapon that caused NONE of the deaths. You and Lox must accept it is a lie.

We won't know that until all of the missing passengers have been found and their bodies examined. If they ever are.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:42 AM

Carol, some peole have questioned the authenticity of the landing video because the ship's painted name does not show up.
It is a thermal imagery video. It appears in black and white only, and the only contrast is between objects at different temperatures.
Any slight temperature difference due to different colour paints would be cancelled out by the heat conducting metal underneath.

The ship is recognisably the M Marmara, and you can match scenes with those captured by activists cameras.


It is genuine, but you and Lox thought the activists behaviour so bad that the Israelis might have staged it!

Keith, I believe I have at least twice, and possibly three times, explained that I didn't see any differences between the Israeli video and daytime pictures of the ship that couldn't possibly be accounted for because of the use of night vision technology. Don't you even bother to read the posts?

I'm beginning to think you're just trolling now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:46 AM

Also, I have said that while I can't say that the two ships are different, there still are some problems with the Israel video. The example I gave is the footage that is being described as an Israeli being thrown off the ship, but looks a lot more like an Israeli being gently lowered down into a life boat. I have said that I am not forming an opinion at this time about whether or not the Israeli footage is genuine.

You really should take the trouble to read people's posts if you're going to comment on them, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:47 AM

So you ignore the FACT it was the M Marmara that had violence- and bring up the ship where none occurred.

beardedbruce, I am not using the Rachel Corrie as evidence of anything that happened on the Mavi Marmara. You're just blowing smoke now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM

Then please explain what you mean:

"Here's some video that was smuggled from the Rachel Corrie, in which we can see and hear the guy speaking for the ship tell the Israelis that the Rachel Corrie would be willing to be inspected by a neutral party like the UN.

So now we have proof that it's not weapons that the Israelis were concerned about."




The RC was AFTER the violence on the MM. HOW can anything they said say anything about whether the Israelis were concerned about weapons on the MM?????????

You are not making any sense- I expect better from you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

Sorry Carol, just trying to be helpful about thermal imaging.
You sounded a bit uncertain about "night vision technology" being used.

Carol, why do you say the inspection was hasty? There is a cut in filming.
What would they do?
They have seen no injuries yet. They think this might be blood from what could only be a very serious injury. They are very concerned that a brother has been injured by the Israelis.
They just smilingly shrug it off as paintball without making sure?!
Open your mind Carol.

Carol, if you are still claiming that passengers are missing you should name them or provide some corroboration.
You need them to be still missing or you will have to admit they lie.
Open your mind Carol.
They are all accounted for. We know the causes of all the deaths. The Norwegian would have told us about blood spilled at that early stage. There was none.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

BOTH sides are going to present ONLY what will make them look good, or make the other side look bad. If you don't look at BOTH side's information, you cannot determine what actually happened.

Exactly why the proposed Israeli "internal investigation" is a piece of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM

"Exactly why the proposed Israeli "internal investigation" is a piece of shit."

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:32 PM

Israel appoints flotilla inquiry commission


Published: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:13 PM EDT


JERUSALEM - Retired Israeli Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Turkel will head an independent commission of inquiry into the Gaza flotilla incident in which nine people were killed, the Israeli government announced this week.

The other members of the commission include international law professor Shabtai Rosen, who is the recipient of the Israel Prize for jurisprudence and the Hague Prize for International Law, and retired Major-General Amos Horev, former president of Technion. The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights.

"I am convinced that the commission's uncovering of the facts will prove that the goals and actions of the state of Israel and the IDF were appropriate defensive actions in accordance with the highest international standards," said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

In a statement released by the White House, the Obama administration noted that Israel's military justice system "meets international standards and is capable of conducting a serious and credible investigation." But it withheld its full support, noting that the administration would "await the conduct and findings of the investigation before drawing further conclusions."

Likewise, the White House called for the investigation to "be carried out promptly" and for findings to be presented publicly and to the international community.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:45 PM

"Published: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:13 PM EDT"

Bobad, you post when the article was published but not who wrote it. I'm trying (not always succeeding!) to follow up posts made on here elsewhere on the net - Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:51 PM

http://www.jewishledger.com/articles/2010/06/16/news/news05.txt

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM

"They are very concerned that a brother has been injured by the Israelis.
They just smilingly shrug it off as paintball without making sure?!"

They are also hiding below deck from a helicopter from which a lazer sight is being emitted.

They don't go up because they are scared.

Not all people would, like you, fearlessly shimmy up the ladder into the line of what might or might not be the line of live fire.

Some would be afraid of getting shot with the gun attached to that lazer sight.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

"BOTH sides are going to present ONLY what will make them look good, or make the other side look bad. If you don't look at BOTH side's information, you cannot determine what actually happened.

Exactly why the proposed Israeli "internal investigation" is a piece of shit. "


Of course, a fair investigation from the UN, which has already stated it's conclusions prior to ANY evidence is to be preferred.




"JERUSALEM - Retired Israeli Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Turkel will head an independent commission of inquiry into the Gaza flotilla incident in which nine people were killed, the Israeli government announced this week.

The other members of the commission include international law professor Shabtai Rosen, who is the recipient of the Israel Prize for jurisprudence and the Hague Prize for International Law, and retired Major-General Amos Horev, former president of Technion. The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights."


We know that Ireland and Canada are far too biased to allow them to look at the evidence here- lets get some fair-minded people like CarolC and Lox to investigate. After all, they already know what the conclusion is suppposed to be, right?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:56 PM

The boats at 35:57

I don't see anyone tying up and sitting there subjecting themselves to humiliation.

I see boats coming close and firing Paintballs to ward passengers off, and then pulling away and keeping their distance.

As for the alleged Laughing Brothers,

Listen to the concersation.

The Norwegian Thinks (not knows) that the IDF are only firing paintballs so it isn't blood.

The big guy says "now its the real one" or something, and laughs, whilst drawing attention to the lazer sight.

This could be a laugh of nervousness or of disbelief, but whatever it is it is in response to the lazer sight, and is suggesting to the norwegian that he should perhaps not be so confident.

Noone scrutinizes the Fluid, and noone is casual or thinks its funny or themselves foolish for making any mistake.

The whole scene is a commentary where a group of men are trying to work out what is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM

"Of course, a fair investigation from the UN, which has already stated it's conclusions prior to ANY evidence is to be preferred."

This is a sarcastic comment which implies that the United Nations, with the exception of Israel and their unconditional security council ally the USA, is untrustworthy.

What an arrogant self deluding premiss.

Only Israel and those who agree with her can be trusted to be fair.

Are you going to deny that implication Bruce or are you going to justify it?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

"It shows the boat incident from slightly further along the deck. You see it come alongside, the hook being pushed up, the paintball shots, etc.
It proves if proof were needed that the video was genuine."

The same incident?

Where was the water cannon?

Where were the dangling weapons?

In the video that 'could' be faked, the soldiers aren't firing paintball guns, something which they do constantly at 35.57 of this video you provided.

But most importantly, proof that it isn't the same incident at all is that its on the wrong side of the ship.

So whether the other was or wasn't faked is neither provable nor disprovable using the video you have provided.

What you can see is something extremely unlikely which is an inconsistent strategy.

On the starboard side, they storm in with paintballs flying, and don't stop firing.

On the possibly faked port side, they aren't firing, they aren't taking evasive action, they are just sitting there.

These are the elite Israeli Navy seals we're talking about here ... do they just do what they like or do they follow a plan?

I suspect they follow a plan!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

Lox,

Did the UN issue a statement condemning Israel BEFORE there was any investigation?

Let me help you here- the answer is yes.



"First the sentence, THEN the trial"- I thought that was restricted to the Red Queen in "Alice...", but it seems that many here think that way.






Only those who have already condemned Israel can be trusted to be fair.

THAT is arrogance, my friend. The past record of the UN demonstrates that the verdict is ALWAYS determined by political points rather than factual evidence. If you do not see that from the decisions it has made, I will presume you are deluding yourself and not doing so on any other basis.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

Israeli Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Turkel will head an independent commission

I'd feel a lot mor comfortable with Studs Terkel heading a TRULY independent commission instead of this put-up job. Unfortunately, he's not available.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM

GregF,

Just because I know you have trouble reading English, I'll repeat this part...

"The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights."




What are you worried about, that the truth might be detemined, and it might not agree with what YOU want to believe happened?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:00 PM

"The (Israeli) government's efforts to avoid a thorough and credible investigation of the flotilla affair seem more and more like a farce."

"The conclusions of an ostensible probe are intended to justify retroactively the decision to blockade Gaza, to forcibly stop the Turkish aid flotilla in international waters and to use deadly force on the deck of the Mavi Marmara."

A headline from Gaza or the UN?

No, the above is an editorial from Israel's own Haaretz newspaper


Israel and the Goldstone report

Richard Goldstone is a South African former judge; one of several liberal judges who issued key rulings that undermined apartheid from within the system by tempering the worst effects of the country's racial laws.
Among other important rulings, Goldstone made the Group Areas Act – under which non-whites were banned from living in "whites only" areas – virtually unworkable by restricting evictions. As a result, prosecutions under the act virtually ceased

He headed the influential Goldstone Commission investigations into political violence in South Africa between 1991 and 1994.
His willingness to criticise all sides and discover the truth led to him being dubbed "perhaps the most trusted man, certainly the most trusted member of the white establishment" in South Africa.

Goldstone's work investigating violence led directly to him being nominated to serve as the first chief prosecutor of the United Nations (UN) International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda from August 1994 to September 1996.
He prosecuted a number of key war crimes suspects, notably the Bosnian Serb political and military leaders, Radovan Karadžiæ and Ratko Mladiæ.
On his return to South Africa he took up a seat on the newly-established Constitutional Court of South Africa, to which he had been nominated by President Nelson Mandela

In 2009 Goldstone led an independent fact-finding mission created by the UN Human Rights Council to investigate international human rights and humanitarian law violations related to the Gaza War.
The mission's findings that Israel and Hamas had both committed serious violations of the laws of war and acts that amounted to crimes against humanity, saying that the conflict dominated by Israel's military superiority had killed 1,400 Palestinians and caused widespread damage to properties in Gaza.

Israel decided in advance that "it seemed clear beyond any doubt that the initiative was motivated by a political agenda and not concern for human rights", and decided not to cooperate

The 547-page report was promptly and strongly denounced by Israel and the United States as biased against Israel.
Defense Minister Ehud Barak on lashed out against the Goldstone report, calling it "distorted, false, and irresponsible"
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said the report "has no legal, factual or ethical validity whatsoever."

In response Israel "asked a number of senior members of the Obama administration to assist in curbing the international fallout from the Goldstone Commission report released this week, which accuses Israel of committing war crimes in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead." - according to Haaretz


"Only those who have already condemned Israel can be trusted to be fair"
Oh please..............

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM

The sad state of 'human rights' organizations


By Gerald Steinberg, The Ottawa Citizen March 14, 2010 Comments (31)



The intense debate on the activities of government-funded groups like Rights & Democracy is an important and healthy development.

For many years, non-governmental organizations (NGOs) that use the language of human rights and other universal moral causes have been exempt from independent examination. Their activities and publications were usually accepted at face value, under the assumption that the officials involved are virtuous and unbiased. But, like other powerful political actors, NGOs need independent evaluation and constructive criticism to prevent abuse.

From this perspective, Sima Samar's article ("Why I Resigned from Rights & Democracy," March 8), which rejects the legitimacy of this debate, is very troubling. Recent events have revealed how some of the most influential human rights and humanitarian NGOs have become platforms for radical ideological advocacy that is inconsistent with the moral principles they claim to espouse. Unfortunately, Samar has joined other ideologues in attacking independent research and detailed analysis, including the work done by my organization -- NGO Monitor -- without bothering to examine the facts.

Examples of biased NGOs are not limited to Canadian groups involved with, and providing funds to, pro-Palestinian organisations. Recently, Amnesty International was found to have allied itself with Moazzam Begg, a well known jihadist and Taliban supporter. Gita Saghal, who was in charge of Amnesty's gender division, made her moral objections public but, instead of an independent evaluation, Amnesty suspended Saghal and sought to silence the criticism.

Similar problems have been exposed by NGO Monitor's systematic research into the activities of Human Rights Watch. The bias in HRW's Middle East and North Africa division is reflected in the consistently greater emphasis given to Israel compared to Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria, and other chronic rights abusers. (Holding a fundraising dinner in Saudi Arabia to pay for more attacks against Israel was particularly absurd.)

HRW also mounted an intense campaign on behalf of Judge Richard Goldstone's report on the Gaza war, which repeats many of HRW's allegations targeting Israel. Many of these allegations came from "senior military analyst" Marc Garlasco, an obsessive collector of Nazi memorabilia who wrote that wearing an SS jacket is "cool." When this behaviour was exposed in September, HRW announced it was suspending Garlasco "pending an investigation."

But HRW has failed to provide any information regarding the investigation, if any, on the credibility of the "war crimes" claims in Garlasco's reports. And in response to all of this, HRW founder Robert Bernstein has denounced his own organization for its distorted agenda, including efforts "to turn Israel into a pariah state."

Canadian NGOs, including Rights & Democracy, are not immune from the widespread ideological distortion of human rights. In her op-ed, Samar excluded details regarding the two Palestinian organizations, Al Mezan and Al Haq, which received grants during her tenure. Al Haq was an active participant in the notorious NGO Forum of the 2001 Durban conference that adopted the strategy of using human rights and boycotts for political warfare against Israel. Director Shawan Jabarin was described by the Israeli Supreme Court as a "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, a human rights defender by day and a terrorist by night." Jabarin's association with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine has also led the government of Jordan to bar his entry. (HRW, which, as noted, has its own problems with credibility and bias, is one of Jabarin's vocal defenders.)

Similarly, Gaza-based Al Mezan's core political agenda is reflected in its clearly one-sided reports, which consistently erase the context of Palestinian terror while delegitimizing Israeli self-defense. During the Gaza conflict, Al Mezan made numerous false allegations designed for propaganda purposes, such as "Israeli massacres," "slaughtering civilians," "scandalous war crimes," and "despicable disregard to civilian life." But the extensive Hamas use of human shields and rocket attacks against Israeli civilians, each one of which was a war crime, was not condemned.

Given this clear bias, there is no justification for the expenditure of taxpayer funds to support Al Haq, Al Mezan and similar groups. And the problem is not limited to Palestinian groups -- NGOs exhibit biases regarding the conflicts in Sri Lanka, Colombia, and Central Africa.

In many cases, NGOs tend to reinforce the moral failures of the United Nations Human Rights Council, whose meetings are often chaired by Libya, Iran, and other human rights "stalwarts." Such diversion and exploitation of the principles of universal human rights has done immeasurable damage.

Canada has the opportunity to set an important example in restoring the universal foundations of human rights and international justice. This will require the ability to reject the radical ideologies that have targeted democracies rather than serial human rights abusers. By restoring the moral agenda, and ending secretive practices and political biases in government-funded organisations like Rights & Democracy, Canada is taking an important step in the right direction.

Gerald Steinberg, a professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University in Israel, is president of NGO Monitor.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM

Gerald Steinberg, a professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University in Israel, is president of NGO Monitor.

Totally unbiased.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM

The reason the Haaretz editorial is opposed to the panel is that it has decided in advance not to consider what decision-making procedures were followed in the run-up to the attack
It will not be allowed to directly question the soldiers who took over the ships but will have to rely on summaries from an internal investigation headed by an Israeli general

Instead Israeli Prime Minister wants the panel to examine "whether Israel's Gaza blockade and the flotilla's interception conformed with international law and also investigate the actions taken by the convoy's organisers and participants."

According to the Israeli daily Haaretz, Judge Tirkel was opposed to bringing in foreign observers however, to give some veneer of credibility Netanyahu and the Americans have agreed on the appointment of Northern Ireland's Lord David Trimble and Ken Watkin, a former Canadian judge advocate general, to sit as observers in the inquiry.
Neither of the two men will have any voting rights nor any other ability to influence the inquiry in any way.

Doubts can be raised about the lack of impartiality, on Lord Trimble's part The Conservative peer recently joined an international "Friends of Israel" group set up by Dore Gold, a close associate of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.



Asked about the inquiry on Good Morning Ulster, Deputy First Minister Martin McGuiness quipped

                   "Sounds like another Widgery"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM

OK Lox.
I am happy to accept that the boat video is a fake if you like.
I do not understand the motive of the Israelis, and it holds no evidence relevant to our discussion.

Your comments about the "blood" are ridiculous.
It was pre helicopter and all he had to do was go up and sniff it.
And that is no doubt what he did.
Then he poses, kneeling, in front of the blood smiling and saying it is paintball, not live ammunition.
Then he speaks in nowegian, then we get the laser from the helicopter.

It is absurd to imagine that he would simply ignore the blood of the first martyr, if that was what is was, without even a comment.

And Lox, do you believe that the "murder" video was someone whose body has never been found, or even missed?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

Espen Goffeng, a Norwegian, said: ''I looked over the rail and saw the zodiacs. It seemed hopeless for the Israelis - they tried to lock-on their grappling hooks, but they were hit by the fire hoses and their own projectiles going back to them.''

He wondered if the boats had been a decoy to draw passengers to the rails while helicopters were used to land Israeli commandos higher in the ship

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:58 PM

"Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint."

WHAT!!?? You mean the peace activists might resort to PROPAGANDA????
(presenting only information that supports their side)

The part where the camera team say it's paint was not edited out of any of the different versions I saw, by the way. You guys are just saying it was to make the people who put the video out look bad. It's in all of the different versions.

But that still doesn't make them right. They had already seen paint from paint balls that had been fired at the ship. They were not in an area where anyone had already been shot. They are unaware that the Israelis are using live ammunition. Everyone's first inclination on the ship (according to their testimony) was to not believe that the Israelis were using live ammunition. Their first impulse is to believe that the substance is paint.   It's an honest mistake for them to make. But the problem is that paint fired from paint guns doesn't behave in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:05 PM

It's not that I'm not making any sense, beardedbruce, it's that you're not using your brain.

Israel and the complicit corporate media in the US (and several hasbara people right here in this thread) keep saying that the reason for the blockade is to keep weapons out of Gaza. All of the ships of the last flotilla, including the Mavi Marmara and the Rachel Corrie, volunteered to be inspected by a neutral third party like the UN. Since the government of Israel turned down that offer, it proves that weapons are not the reason they are imposing the blockade. We can prove now that at least one ship, the Rachel Corrie, did make that offer, and we have proof that Israel turned it down (because they didn't allow the Rachel Corrie to proceed to Gaza). So their claim that the blockade is to keep weapons out has been proven to be a lie.

Now don't you just feel foolish for accusing me of not making any sense? (If you don't, you should.)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:08 PM

I've been without internet for most of the day. I don't know how long it's going to take me to read all of the posts since I was online last night and answer any questions or comments directed at me (I never got caught up earlier today with the ones posted since then).

I will say this, though, Keith. It's not me who needs to open their mind.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:11 PM

I don't know all of the details, but it looks like there are now at least three different Jewish human rights organizations that will be participating in a future flotilla, and at least two boats carrying their members. Needless to say, this will continue and it will keep getting bigger and bigger until the blockade is ended...


http://www.ajjp.org/jewishboat

"The movement to break the blockade of Gaza is "unstoppable and unsinkable" said Naomi Klein, member of the Advisory Board of the Free Gaza Movement, in a powerful statement at a demonstration in Toronto on May 31.

Building on the momentum and global outrage over the Israeli attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, an international coalition of Jewish organizations working for justice in Palestine will sponsor a Jewish Boat to Gaza this summer, with AJJP as its U.S. coordinator.

AJJP joins the "Jüdische Stimme" ('Jewish Voice' for a Just Peace in the Near East and Jews for Justice For Palestinians (UK) in sending the boat as a call to the leaders of the world to help Israel find her way to reason, to a sense of humanity and a life without fear.

The participants on the boat will be chosen by its European organizers. In coordination with the medical, educational and mental health services in Gaza, the boat will take school bags and books, donated by German schoolchildren; musical instruments and art materials to support the Gaza Community Mental Health Program; nets and tackle for fishermen; and essential medicines and small medical equipment for the civilian population under siege. Absolutely no weapons will be on board, and all participants will be trained in the principles of non-violence."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:29 PM

A circular splatter will only occur if the paintball ( with whatever content) impacts on THAT surface- if it impacted on a person, the excess would spray off in various patterns- dependent on the volume and the viscosity of the fluid.

When paintball paint impacts a person, it sticks to the person. That's what it does. There is no excess and it doesn't spray off. It sticks to people. That's its job. Paintball pellets don't hold very much paint.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM

Carol, if you are still claiming that passengers are missing you should name them or provide some corroboration.

I keep seeing reports from people who participated in the flotilla saying that there are still missing people. The nurses who were on board and who were tending the wounded said they saw more than 9 dead bodies. Many of the aid groups are saying that there are 6 people missing. I have not seen any reports in the last couple of days, but if the people they said were missing had been accounted for, I would expect them to make an announcement. They are very good about keeping us informed about what's going on. But I'll ask around and see if anyone knows if everyone has been accounted for.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM

"The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights."

They're just there for show. They aren't being given any authority to actually do anything.

Thankfully, the UN is going to conduct its own investigation as it did for the Gaza massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:09 AM

More on the Jewish flotillas

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/transatlantic-jewish-coalition-set-to-break-the-siege-of-gaza.html


"Within days after the attack on the Mavi Marmara, European activists announced a Jewish Boat to sail in July from an undisclosed location in the Mediterranean, attempting to break the siege imposed by Israel in 2006. The boat is sponsored by a coalition of international Jewish organizations dedicated to peace with justice in Israel/Palestine, including the ''Jüdische Stimme'' ('Jewish Voice' for a Just Peace in the Near East), along with European Jews for a Just Peace in the Near East (EJJP) and Jews for Justice For Palestinians (UK). American Jews for a Just Peace (AJJP) will serve as the U.S. Coordinator, creating a transatlantic partnership. The small boat's cargo will include school books, medicines and medical equipment.

Why a Jewish boat? Lots of reasons. The universal values contained in the ethical tradition of Judaism don't include 'Do unto others as was done unto us.' For Jews to publicly confront the Israeli government's policies of occupation, apartheid, and siege on a world stage highlights the political nature of the conflict and discredits those who insist on framing it strictly in ethnic and/or religious terms. I like best the answer from Glyn Secker, the Jewish Boat's captain, a British Jew, and longtime activist with Jews for Justice for Palestinians in the UK: "As Jews we should stand as a beacon for human rights, not as an internationally known perpetrator of atrocities."

These may be reasons enough for us to pour our hearts and souls, as well as the contents of our pockets, into supporting this effort. And imagine telling our grandchildren that in response to Israel's stranglehold on 1.5 million Palestinian people in Gaza, and in solidarity with the international movement, we sent a boat of Jewish activists to break the blockade. For additional information and to make a contribution, go to: www.ajjp.org/jewishboat."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:42 AM

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/UK/Amnesty-says-Israeli-flotilla-probe-lacks-transparency/articleshow/6052258.cms

LONDON: Amnesty International criticised on Tuesday Israel's planned internal probe of the deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla, saying it would lack transparency and was unlikely to ensure accountability.

The Israeli committee, which will include two foreign observers, was formed to conduct an investigation into the legal aspects of the May 31 operation in which commandos killed nine Turkish activists and wounded many more.

"The format of this government-appointed commission represents a disappointment and a missed opportunity," Malcolm Smart, Amnesty's director for the Middle East and North Africa, said in a statement.

"The commission looks to be neither independent nor sufficiently transparent, the two international observers may be denied access to crucial information and the commission's findings may not be used in future prosecutions," Smart said.

The panel will be headed by retired supreme court judge Yaakov Tirkel, and will include Nobel Peace Prize winner David Trimble from Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian armed forces.

But it was not clear what powers Trimble and Watkin would have. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said they would not able "to vote in relation to the proceedings and conclusions of the commission."

The two could also be denied access to information if it was "almost certain to cause substantial harm to national security or to the state's foreign relations."

"The processes of the commission must be open, transparent and allow access to all information sources," said Smart. "It should not allow the political considerations of the Israeli government to determine which of its findings are made public."

Israel is facing mounting pressure to end the blockade on Gaza, imposed in 2006 after Gaza militants seized an Israeli soldier in a cross-border raid.

Commenting on that, Smart said the "creation of this commission must not distract attention from Israel's continuing blockade of Gaza, which Israel must lift immediately. The Israeli authorities' closure of Gaza constitutes collective punishment and is in clear violation of the Israel's legal obligations as the occupying power."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:13 AM

Carol, I hope these are mistakes and not dishonesty.
The two versions of the "blood" scene you posted, 10thJune 2.24pm and 8.11pm DID both have the scene deleted where it is identified as paint.
You changed your mind about it being blood not paint because, you said, of the improved video quality.
The video quality is just as good on the first version.

You just said " Their first impulse is to believe that the substance is paint."
Not true. They keep saying "blood" very loudly (in all versions!).

No rational person could see the whole sequence and believe it is blood.
It makes you and Lox look ridiculous, and I am happy to leave it there.

One last question on the "blood". What happened to the victim? Why was the victim not brought down for treatment like all the others?
We would have noticed because it was well before the landings.
The first to come were the two soldiers, then wounded activists later.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:54 AM

Keith, they don't keep saying "blood" loudly. The one guy asks if it's blood, and people say, "what?" and he has to repeat himself several times (more loudly each time) because they can't hear him. You're right that the part where the one guy answers him is not in the ones I posted. I saw that part in a different video and thought it was in the ones I posted. However, the guy who answers doesn't say it's blood. What he says is that he "thinks they're firing some kind of paint ball stuff". He doesn't examine the substance. He just says that this is what he thinks they are firing. He's doing exactly what I said he was doing. He's making an assumption based on something he's seen in a different context. He had some awareness that paint balls were being fired, so he assumed that the red stuff he was looking at was from paint balls. At that point in time, he is unaware of what's going on in other parts of the ship.

We have numerous passenger reports that the Israelis started firing live rounds before they boarded the ship. We can see blood dripping down from an open hatch. We know that the Israeli government has lie about many of the things they have reported about the flotilla and it's participants. This is proven fact. We have every reason to disbelieve what the Israelis tell us, and no reason at all to disbelieve the passengers who report live fire prior to the Israelis boarding. And you can't explain that red substance dripping down from the hatch as being paint from paint pellets. There's too much of it, and it's not behaving like paint from paintball guns.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:20 AM

"And you can't explain that red substance dripping down from the hatch as being paint from paint pellets"

Espen Goffeng did, and he had chance to look at it, touch it and smell it!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:33 AM

"It was pre helicopter and all he had to do was go up and sniff it.
And that is no doubt what he did.
Then he poses, kneeling, in front of the blood smiling and saying it is paintball, not live ammunition."

Eh? ... He was a good 15 feet away from the Ladder - the camera is pointing away from the ladder to him where he is kneeling, and the fluid is pouring down from the top of the ladder ... How could he be kneeling down sniffing it? ...

You present as creative an interpretation of what the video shows as I could possibly imagine.


"I am happy to accept that the boat video is a fake if you like."

What I like has nothing to do with it.


"Espen Goffeng, a Norwegian, said: ''I looked over the rail and saw the zodiacs. It seemed hopeless for the Israelis - they tried to lock-on their grappling hooks, but they were hit by the fire hoses and their own projectiles going back to them.''"

Where can I find this?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:43 AM

As an amusing aside, I can't help but be amused that David Trimble, who has spent his entire political career clarifying that he is British and not Irish, should be sold to us now as an "Irish Nobel Peace Laureate".


BB,

If Israel is to be trusted, why won't they let an independant investigation happen?

Why won't they even allow their own investigation to investigate properly.

The rules of the Israeli investigation effectively give the IDF immunity.

What a waste of time.

Its a cover up and the IDF and the Israeli government have something to hide.

Witholding information is admissable as evidence of having something to hide in court.

Israel has somnething to hide.

No amount of accusing the whole world of being Israel haters can get them out of that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:49 AM

You can find the quote here, so we know that if the Israelis did fake that clip, they created an accurate reconstruction of the actual event.
But that would be so silly, wouldn't it!
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/in-their-wake-20100605-xl3e.html?feed=html

The blood video.
Lox, the question is repeatedly and loudly asked.
"BLOOD?"
There is a break in recording.
He appears smiling, standing and then kneeling to let us see, and tells us it is paintball.

But you and Carol know better?!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:51 AM

Carol,

You gave the following respons to BB,

"All of the ships of the last flotilla, including the Mavi Marmara and the Rachel Corrie, volunteered to be inspected by a neutral third party like the UN. Since the government of Israel turned down that offer, it proves that weapons are not the reason they are imposing the blockade."

On reflection, it would seem that the reason may be that the UN is unanimous in its hatred of Israel.

It follows that the UN can't be trusted to make sure arms don't get in to Gaza.

Or another way of looking at that might be to say that the UN would have been compplicit in the provision of arms to Gazans.

The UN (a forum in which all the countries of the world meet to discuss global issues) is just against Israel and thats that.

I'm guessing all those resolutions aren't legitimate for that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:51 AM

And..
you have to ask why they took the trouble to edit out that 15 second sequence.

If not in order to create a lie, why else?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:17 AM

"you have to ask why they took the trouble to edit out that 15 second sequence."

Good question.

It was counterpruductive to do so, and in the end proved unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM

"And you can't explain that red substance dripping down from the hatch as being paint from paint pellets"

Espen Goffeng did, and he had chance to look at it, touch it and smell it!

No he didn't. He just said that that's what he thought they were firing. He never said that he had checked it out and found it to be paint. He said "I think they're firing some paintball looking stuff". He says "I think". Not, "I know", or even "I believe". And he doesn't address the actual stuff on the wall, but only what he thinks they're firing. He's making an assumption based on prior information gleaned in a different context. Had he checked it out and found it to be paint, he would have said, "No, it's paint." Or maybe, "I checked it out, and it feels and smells like paint". But he didn't do that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:35 AM

their own projectiles going back to them.''

This is exactly what I said was happening, and you said I was wrong. I said they were lobbing the stun grenades back at them, and you said I was wrong. If you want to accept this guy's version of events, you have to concede that I was not wrong.

I don't dispute the fire hose thing, though. The passengers testify that they were using fire hoses on the zodiacs. But if the Israelis don't want to be soaked with a fire hose, all they have to do is get out of range of them. That's not at all hard to do. They don't have to fire live ammunition to defend themselves from water from fire hoses. Especially since they weren't even on the ship when the fire hoses were being trained on them.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:43 AM

Keith, the full version of that video was shown at the UN by the woman who was responsible for making it. She released a series of short versions before she showed it at the UN. Each one had a different amount of footage in it. She didn't try to conceal anything, however, because if she had, you would never have seen that segment that you're talking about. She was the one who released it, and that's why your buddies had access to it. Had she wanted to conceal it, you would never have seen it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:52 AM

That 15 seconds could not have been their favorite bit if they chose to delete it from some versions.
He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood.

How are you getting on with the "missing" ?

This answer from American activist aboard might help.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Have you unidentified who those missing are?

IARA LEE: Obviously, we cannot jump to conclusions, but they are not hurt, they are not injured, they are not killed. They disappeared. I don't know. It's something that must be investigated. I mean, some people even speculate that we had spies, so maybe some of these missing people were, you know, Mossad agents. We don't know. We need to investigate. Were they thrown off the boat?

If they are not killed, your "murder" video lied both about the victim, and even that it showed a killing at all.

Both sides lie Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:58 AM

"He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood."

It is simply not believable to expect a guy who is in the middle of a siege, surrounded by boats firing projectiles, with a helicopter overhead emitting a lazer sight spot light, at 5am, surrounded by frightened people, to start sniffing blood and examining it in detail.

If I was in that situation, I would be alert first and foremost to my own safety, and after that, as a reporter, to the surrounding activity, which you must admit kieth served as a distraction to the analyisi of the red liquid.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:01 AM

On the subject of Espen, we need not speculate for long as I've e-mailed him to ask him about that moment.

I suspect he's quite busy so you may have to be patient.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM

""( gelitin, margerine, etc are used as base materials for some explosives)""

They are also foodstuffs used to prevent starvation. And tell me how you think cement fits into any weapons scenario. Maybe they're making it into cannon balls?

Ther are a couple of points being obscured by all this back and forth about trivia.

1. An act of piracy did take place in international waters, and had it been committed by any organisation other than the Israeli Defence Force, not one voice would have been raised in trying to defend the action.

2. Those on board of the ship which was attacked by armed men, tried to defend against the incursion (as was their legal right), using only such weapons as came to hand. They were obviously not spoiling for a fight, or one might have expected them to be better armed.

3. Of those defenders, eight died of multiple wounds, inflicted at short range, by nine millimetre sidearms, and one was shot in the head with a round commonly used in shotguns.

4. None of the attackers were killed. Even when the defenders managed to acquire handguns from them, these were discarded without being used.

None of the above suggests that the defenders were doing any more than defending their vessel against government sponsored pirates.

I don't much care for Hamas, but it is only a political faction, and collective punisment for all citizens of Gaza is clearly forbidden under international law.

Israel is, and for a long time has been, flouting that law.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

That 15 seconds could not have been their favorite bit if they chose to delete it from some versions.
He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood.

They deleted a lot of stuff from the short versions. They deleted a lot of stuff that was completely neutral, too, like journalists typing into their computers. You're barking up the wrong tree with that one. They edited for length, not content. Everything was released. Had the Israelis not confiscated the rest of her footage, she would release that, too. And speaking of that, once again, it's the Israelis who are concealing footage. They are refusing to release all of the footage that they have confiscated (what they didn't destroy). So if concealment is a sign of guilt, then I think we can safely say that the Israelis are already convicted.

How are you getting on with the "missing" ?

This answer from American activist aboard might help.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Have you unidentified who those missing are?

IARA LEE: Obviously, we cannot jump to conclusions, but they are not hurt, they are not injured, they are not killed. They disappeared. I don't know. It's something that must be investigated. I mean, some people even speculate that we had spies, so maybe some of these missing people were, you know, Mossad agents. We don't know. We need to investigate. Were they thrown off the boat?

If they are not killed, your "murder" video lied both about the victim, and even that it showed a killing at all.

I guess we'll have to wait to find out. I have not tried to contact anyone yet, and I might not have time until much later today. But like I said, the nurses, and many other people report that there were more than nine bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM

He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood.

Except that he didn't tell us he knew it was paint. He never said that at all. He said, "I think they're firing some kind of paintball looking stuff". You're just flagrantly making stuff up now, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM

""I am convinced that the commission's uncovering of the facts will prove that the goals and actions of the state of Israel and the IDF were appropriate defensive actions in accordance with the highest international standards," said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.""

So we can be certain that there is no intention to pre-empt the inquiry's findings, and of course no bias on the part of Mr Netanyahu.......NOT!

Israel's whitewash budget is already overstretched.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM

"There are a couple of points being obscured by all this back and forth about trivia"

Absolutely Don - in fact it almost seems a deliberate ploy to tie people up by having to deflect from their main points by continually having to address what are basically distractionary details as if in some way any small inconsistency by someone caught up in the panic of an armed attack negates your summary of the main issues

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM

That was in answer to the question, "Is it blood?"
BLOOD?
BLOOD?
BLOOD?

It is paint ball. Not live ammunition.
I think he would have made something of it had it been blood.
Expressed outrage.Concern. Something.
Had there been blood at that stage he would have mentioned it in the interviews he gave later.
There was no blood then.
None of the activists are saying there was blood there, just happy to let people believe it and not show the few seconds that make it clear.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM

I rest my case!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM

Emma, when the first fire and casualties happened is not trivial to this discussion.
The meaning of the deleted 15 seconds seems obvious to me but Carol and Lox keep challenging it.
Otherwise we might have moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM

"I think he would have made something of it had it been blood."

No, I think he would have taken cover and had his eyes and ears open for what might happen next.

I have an amusing image in my head of a ship full of pancking activists at 5am in the morning, surrounded by a hostile Navy who are firing weapons that may or may not be paintball guns (as far as they know without the benefit of hindsight), hiding from a machine guns lazer spotlight, and scared that there may be a chance that they could be killed, and in the middle of it all stands Keith oblivious to all that but declaring (not sure to whom) that this is absolutely outrageous whilst sniffing the ladder to inspect the chemical composition of the fluid on it.

How very British.

And not actually very amusing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:34 AM

The insignificance of the deleted 15 seconds seems obvious to me but Keith keeps going on about it.
Otherwise we might have moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM

Kieth,

Do you know what the difference is between the visdeo we are discussing and the videos covered up by the IDF?


Neither do I - because the Ones Covered up by the IDF were ... um ... covered up.

Unlike the one we are discussing.

Nothing was concealed, so you have no point to argue.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM

You both look ridiculous in your denials of the obvious.
I will leave it at that, at least until we get the translation I have requested.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:46 AM

"Emma, when the first fire and casualties happened is not trivial to this discussion"

Keith, if you look back over this long thread you will see many instances where you have made similar challenges to information in my posts as to substantial evidence both from eyewitnesses and one of the soldiers themselves about where the first fire came from which I have addressed in each instance although you continued to repeat the same refuted statements from the initial attempts to blame the victims for their deaths

and......

you are still doing this!

and now on the Saville report thread too!

Please may we move on there are important issues and it is gratifying to see that at least one outcome of this attack is the international attention and approbation that has pressurized Israel to allow more humanitarian aid through to the beseiged beleaguered Gazan population.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM

I am sorry Emma, but I will not accept uncorroborated witness statements from either side.
Both sides lie.
I have only argued from the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:07 AM

"You both look ridiculous in your denials of the obvious."

Not as ridiculous as you do making stuff up that isn't even in that 15 second gap, let alone the rest of the video, or indeed in your attempt to describe a video on general worldwide release as being in any way concealed.

He doesn't sniff the blood, He doesn't kneel anywhere near the blood, he's wondering whats going to happen, and its on a video that has been published openly for the whole world to see.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM

I did not say that we see that.
I say that it is what anyone would have done.
Anyone here can watch the clip and know who is being ridiculous.

Carol, you said that the full sequence was shown to the UN.
Here is Iara Lee on Democracy Today with the footage she is about to show UN.
Some of it is shown. She says twice that it is "raw, uncensored footage."
We see the "blood" sequence, with the 15 seconds deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 AM

sorry, here.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/10/exclusive_journalist_smuggles_out_video_of

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:22 AM

"I say that it is what anyone would have done."

Sure - very reasonable - unless its 5am and you are surrounded by armed boats and helicopters and scared passengers with a machine gun sight shining on the deck next to you and you are uneasy about what is going to happen next or whether anyone has been killed or is about to be killed, in which case you would look around and watch your back much like the guy in the video.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM

The laser is not seen until after the sequence.
People are seen casually walking and standing around on the deck throughout the sequence and into the laser sequence.

You are making an arse of yourself now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:43 AM

You're wasting my time, Keith. You're making shit up and wasting my time. I look forward to the results of the UN investigation. I also look forward to all of the many future flotillas and aid convoys, and the eventual end of the siege. The people you are defending have already lost. They just haven't figured it out yet. They will before too much longer.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM

I CHALLENGE AND DEFY YOU TO PRODUCE ONE SINGLE THING THAT I HAVE MADE UP.

I have argued solely from video evidence and authentic quotes.
You have just realised that it is obvious who is producing shit.
About time.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM

Keith,


This is a conversation between scared people trying to figure out what is going on.

Big guy - "Is this blood?"

(Camera Looking at the ladder)

Norwegian - "I think they're only using paintballs"

(Camera Looking at the norwegian photographer who is looking around whilst taking cover before commenting into camera in his own language)

Big Guy - "ha ha - well heres the real thing" drawing attention to lazer sight.

(Camera points at the lazer sight.)

This within 15 seconds (or so you have stated)


You are either trolling or deliberately lying.


Either way, every poit you have made has been shot down in flames.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:59 AM

Keith, you keep saying that the Norwegian photographer said that he knows that it's not blood. He never said any such thing. You are making it up.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:14 AM

Keith,

"Then he poses, kneeling, in front of the blood smiling and saying it is paintball, not live ammunition."

Made up.


"Why was the victim not brought down for treatment like all the others?"

How do you know this assertion to be true?

Made up.


"he had chance to look at it, touch it and smell it!"

But he didn't - he lso had the chance to get his guitar out and sing a song - he didn't do that either.

Made up.


"People are seen casually walking and standing around on the deck throughout the sequence"

Made up.


Thanks for the link to the Quote from the Norwegian by the way,

You seem to have left this bit out:

'The first ammunition I heard striking the ship sounded like paint balls,'' Goffeng said. ''But some people said there had to be glass in them, because of the wounds they caused. There was a lot of blood in the stairwells and then the sound of the ammunition hitting metal changed again - I decided that was the live ammunition. People were yelling, 'Live ammo! Live ammo!'''

Note:

"There was a lot of blood in the stairwells"

Neither you nor I know which stairwells he is talkng about yet, but he hasn't talked about wounded being carried downstairs, so that would suggest the blood isn't coming from them ...

I'm sure your imagination will conjure up a story to explain it all.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:22 AM

My statement is based on firm evidence.
If he even THOUGHT it might be blood he would have said so.
He says he thinks it is paintball and does not change his opinion.
That is the evidence for my statement.

Carol, you have falsely claimed that,
Your links were to versions that included the 15 seconds.
False.
You said the video quality was so much better on your second link that it made you change your mind about it being paint.
False
You said that the full sequence was given to UN.
False
You claim that a number of activists are missing.
False.
You claimed that you linked to a video that showed the murder of a named individual.
False.
You claimed that it could show the murder of a missing individual.
False

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM

He does kneel, infront of a box smeared with red and close enough to smell if it is wet paint.
True.
We know he was not brought down for treatment because of the live feed video and others that showed no one brought down before the soldiers.
True.
He did have every chance to touch and smell it. There is a break in recording, and he stands and kneels within sniffing distance of some.
True.
People are seen casually walking and standing about. Anyone can check and see if I made it up.
True.
In fuller versions of the stairwell quote, the statement is linked to the description of injured being carried down the stairs for treatment. That is why he says "stairwell" not "ladder" or "bulkhead" or "deck."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:40 AM

Like I said, Keith, you're wasting my time. You can stay with your supremacist friends there in the dust of history.   I've got some new flotillas and a UN investigation to start focusing my attention on now. History is marching forward and it's leaving you behind. You and people like you will be remembered by history in the same way those who came to the defense of jim crow in the US South are and the way people who came to the defense of apartheid in South Africa are remembered.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:45 AM

I'm gonna take e break from tis for a while - its way too time consuming.

I will conclude though by pointing out that in this alleged two sided argument, only one side represents a unified front.

The other side is a collection of people from all walks of life and many different countries.

The testimony of The Israelis has been shown to be false in numerous instances.

The evidence provided by the israelis has been shown to have been faked.

The unified single voiced Israeli side has been discredited and offered inconsistent evidence.

The other "side" isn't actually a side at all.

They were not one group united by any flag or other label.

They were a collection of varous groups and individuals.

Yet their testimony is consistent and NONE of the evidence contradicts it.

That many unconnected witnesses, all giving the same testimony is powerful EVIDENCE.

For reasonabe doubt to be cast on it, there would need to be some very hard contradictory evidence.

There is none.

The evidence that exists may not prove some of the allegations, but it is consistent with the testimony of the passengers.

BB seems to think that its a case of Israel against the world.

Keith seems to be following him into that corner.

The Israeli government refuse to allow scrutiny.

The passengers have handed over ALL their evidence.


Somneone is telling lies and hiding the truth.

And that someone is the government of Israel and its military.

Have fun folks - I'm off.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM

Carol, I have defended neither side.
I have only challenged unsupported assertions.

Lox,
"People were shot on the deck where I was too," he told the news conference. "It is difficult to talk about. I saw people who had been shot in the head, and some were carrying a dead man. There was blood in the stairwell."
http://gazaflotillasurvivors.posterous.com/tag/norwegian

People being shot on his deck puts the event later in time.
Dead and injured were carried down the stairs inside, not down a ladder on deck.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM

"The passengers have handed over ALL their evidence."

We have seen that they too edit the evidence.
I suspect that the uploading to Youtube of the full version on 11th June was a mistake.

As I keep telling you, BOTH SIDES LIE.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:58 AM

Keith, that's not how your words in threads like this one will be perceived after Israeli apartheid is dismantled. Your words will be perceived as protecting and enabling Israeli apartheid. And that is how you will be remembered by those who read your words.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM

OK let me clear it up now.
I do not support the blockade.
I think it right for activists to challenge it.
I think the activists on the M. Marvara were wrong to attack the boarding parties and the evidence is that no deaths would otherwise have occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM

we have a translation,many thanks to Dave MacKenzie and his daughter's boyfriend.
thread.cfm?threadid=130237&messages=3#2929861

Subject: RE: Any Norwegian speakers please?
From: Dave MacKenzie - PM
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 10:52 AM

" I think they're using something similar to a paintball gun    . Some stuff's running down the wall but I don't think it's blood, it could be of course but...



Oh, they've got a tiny laser sight (referring to a red dot on the deck) . There's a laser sight over there, I'm not sure what it is. Keep away from it.



It looks like something red's run down the wall here, we don't think it's blood we think they've been shooting paintballs or something similar. They're not using live ammunition, it could possibly be rubber bullets, but it's not live.

we saw at least ten men come down from helicopters here and now they've taken control over the bridge Oops shots incoming "

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

Still room for doubt I agree.
No mention of the smell I expected.
And he did not investigate as I assumed he would, so I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM

Like I've said several times. He's going on what their prior experience told them was paintballs. He's not going on the substance at all, but rather on other things they saw being fired that were paintballs. And why else would the Israelis be using paintballs with paint the color of blood in them anyway, if not to confuse people about what they're seeing, just as these people are confused about what they're seeing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:30 PM

CarolC,

"When paintball paint impacts a person, it sticks to the person. That's what it does. There is no excess and it doesn't spray off. It sticks to people"

Except YOU have stated it is NOT paint- so it would not act that way.

You can't claim it MUST act like paint, but it is not.

The pattern as shown coulD be A NUMBER of other red fluids- blood, hydraulic fluid, dye, etc. THAT is what makes your statement "Since it does not act like paint, it MUST be blood." false. It MIGHT be blood- it might not- the spray pattern is not enough to determine that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM

Don T

"1. An act of piracy did take place in international waters, and had it been committed by any organisation other than the Israeli Defence Force, not one voice would have been raised in trying to defend the action."

The area those ships declared they were going to was under declared blockade- the Israeli actions were as legal as Kennedy's in the Cuban Missile Crisis.




"2. Those on board of the ship which was attacked by armed men, tried to defend against the incursion (as was their legal right), using only such weapons as came to hand. They were obviously not spoiling for a fight, or one might have expected them to be better armed."


You can't claim they were inspected for weapons, and then had those weapons when attacked- so, were they inspected before leaving port, or not?




"3. Of those defenders, eight died of multiple wounds, inflicted at short range, by nine millimetre sidearms, and one was shot in the head with a round commonly used in shotguns."

And seven IDF were wounded, one of whom is probably permanantly brain damaged. Tehy were trained military, enforcing a blockade- THAT should say something abotu the violence by the people on the ship.




"4. None of the attackers were killed. Even when the defenders managed to acquire handguns from them, these were discarded without being used."

a- so as long as someone does not kill, it is ok? Then CarolC has no protest about the other ships, since no-one died on them.

b- Prove that- I can claim with as much prof ( ie, none) that those captured pistols were used by IHH thugs to execute their own wounded to make Israel look bad. Try to prove THAT wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

Lox,

" a machine guns lazer spotlight"

You are making a large leap- I use a red laser rangefined to determine distance in taking pictures- I guess I will be shot for having a machine gun.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM

You are making a large leap- I use a red laser rangefined to determine distance in taking pictures- I guess I will be shot for having a machine gun.

Dear Lord, what a pity that Mudcat doesn't have a "cracking up laughing" smiley.

Yeah, sure, the IDF were boarding a ship, using laser sights to take photos. They're just misrepresented photographers, not soldiers at all. In a fire-fight situation, or what was soon to become a fire-fight situation (albeit one-sided), laser gun sights aren't used, so it must be for photographic range-finding.

Have you considered the many benefits of bridge ownership? I have a couple in this portfolio I could show you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:18 PM

In BB's brain [sic], many such idiocies are possible, Mouse.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:57 PM

Confirming my post was me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:06 PM

In GregF's (sick) brain, the people in the helicopter would have no desire to film the assult.

In the real world, that video has already been released by the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

Hi Keith,

I wasn't expecting it so soon, but I've just had an e.mail back from Espen.

He had this to say to me.

"I wasn`t sure about the red fluid at the time, but as time went on we started seeing wounds that corresponded with the information we got that there was glass inside the paintball shots. I still don`t know for sure what the fluid was, and thanks to the Israeli refusal of an international investigation, I guess we will never have forensic evidence about it. But as I saw the wounds I`m leaning strongly towards blood. It seems to be too much of it to come from paintballs.

The laser-dot didn`t seem to correspond with paintball guns, so thats when we seriously started reconsidering. Off course, a little later i t became abundantly clear that there was live fire on board."

There you are.

Straight from the horses mouth.

So you can shut up now.

Bye everyone thats it from me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

Keith, I saw the unedited footage because I have good sources. And no, when I saw the red substance in the higher quality video, I thought of blood.

And I think Espen has just now vindicated pretty much everything I have said on the subject of the red substance that was dripping from the open hatch and his reaction to it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Except YOU have stated it is NOT paint- so it would not act that way.

Precisely. It's not paint from paintballs, so it's not behaving like paint from paintballs. If it was paint from paintballs, it would be behaving like paint from paintballs. It's not doing that. So it's not paint from paintballs.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM

"the Israeli actions were as legal as Kennedy's in the Cuban Missile Crisis."

Yes bruce,

That's right.

The Mavi Marmara bringing Aid into Gaza is a direct parallel with Russian warships bringing Nuclear missiles to the carribbean at the height of the cold war ...

... But only in La-La-whoopsy-banana-land.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM

In GregF's (sick) brain, the people in the helicopter would have no desire to film the assult.

Is this supposed to make sense, or was it intended as gibberish?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM

""The area those ships declared they were going to was under declared blockade- the Israeli actions were as legal as Kennedy's in the Cuban Missile Crisis.""

Not True! Kennedy knew those ships were carrying missiles, because the reds had made no secret of the fact. That constituted a "clear and present danger".

Where the Fotilla was going is immaterial, as it was attacked in international waters. If it had been within the territorial waters of Palestine, there might (and I only say might) be some merit in the action.

""You can't claim they were inspected for weapons, and then had those weapons when attacked- so, were they inspected before leaving port, or not?""

Iron bars would not be unusual aboard ship, with a number of possible functions other than hitting anybody. A galley without kitchen knives would be strange indeed. Would you, if planning resistance to an armed boarding party, rely on those "weapons", to repel men with rifles and sidearms? I don't think so.

""And seven IDF were wounded, one of whom is probably permanantly brain damaged. Tehy were trained military, enforcing a blockade- THAT should say something abotu the violence by the people on the ship.""

OH PUHLEASE! Seven injured, and one "possibly" brain damaged, according to the Israeli government, which is desperately trying to cover up the mess. So that'll be gospel then....DUH!

Wouldn't it be tragic if one or two managed to break a fingernail in the course of executing nine vastly outgunned civilians.

""a- so as long as someone does not kill, it is ok?""

No! Since they were defending themselves against men with lethal weapons, it would have been OK even if they HAD killed. BUT THEY DID NOT!

After all you are trying to make the case that using guns to execute civilians armed with iron bars and kitchen knives constitutes reasonable force. You can't have it both ways.

""b- Prove that- I can claim with as much prof ( ie, none) that those captured pistols were used by IHH thugs to execute their own wounded to make Israel look bad. Try to prove THAT wrong.""

Bruce, even you can't be stupid enough to advance that as a credible theory. For a start, if the IDF had not used the guns on them how do you reckon the "IHH thugs" having any wounded to kill.

Had it been so the Israelis would have spread that abroad in complete justification of their actions within an hour of the incident. It would have been the second time that Manna from heaven saved them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 PM

One of the biggest obstacles to sanctioning Israel for their misdeeds is the bloc known as AIPAC in the U.S. which used to be known as American Israeli Political Action Committee and then changed their name to American Israeli Public Affairs Committee.

BTW the people in Gaza are not being supported by the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM

I can only repeat that the video evidence does not support it being blood.
I make it 2 minutes and 24 seconds from first pops as boat comes alongside until stains are seen. What became of the victim in that time?

Ten feet to the right of the ladder is a bin with a blanket on top.
How did blood get on that?
Further right still a second bin is liberally smeared.
It could not have come from the hatch.

As time went on, people were exposed to the projectiles at close range. Not fired, against gravity, up to the decks of the ship, from a boat at sea level

Espen Goffeng was doing great service as an objective journalist showing the world what was happening. I admire that.
He then saw the violent deaths of friends and comrades, and like all the crew was treated severely by the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:20 AM

Keith,

Espen said "The laser-dot didn`t seem to correspond with paintball guns, so thats when we seriously started reconsidering."

This corresponds exactly with my interpretation of the events in the video in a previous post when I said:

From: Lox - PM
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:56 PM


"The Norwegian Thinks (not knows) that the IDF are only firing paintballs so it isn't blood.

The big guy says "now its the real one" or something, and laughs, whilst drawing attention to the lazer sight.

This could be a laugh of nervousness or of disbelief, but whatever it is it is in response to the lazer sight, and is suggesting to the norwegian that he should perhaps not be so confident."

Once again, eyewiness testimony is consistent with video evidence.

I have since become virtual friends with Espen online.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM

He seems like a great bloke.
Has he seen our debate?

The laser would be on a firearm, but there is no evidence of it firing before the landing.
We have been arguing about who started the violence, and fixated on the stains.
Notwithstanding Espen's e-mail, the activists are not actually claiming live fire or serious casualties before the soldiers landed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM

It's dripping down from the hatch. It's point of origin is above the hatch. The presence of red substance on items on the deck where the person filming is doesn't mean anything, since there were also paintballs with red paint in them being fired as well. Most likely the red on the things near the videographer is paint from paintballs. Which would account for the initial confusion about what is dripping down from the hatch.

As I've said already a few times, what other reason would the Israelis have for using paintballs with blood colored paint in them in a situation like this one? When before has any kind of military commando unit ever used paintballs as a part of their ordinance? Why would they use them in this context? The only reason is to obscure something they don't want seen and to create confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM

Keith, I have posted numerous testimonies from people aboard the ship reporting live fire before the Israelis landed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM

Forgot this part... and many of them report two or more casualties prior to the Israelis landing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM

Carol, when real casualties appear there is a rush to give help and take them to safety.
A most natural human reaction especially in people united in a struggle.
Carol, why does no one show any concern for the person bleeding to death feet away from them?
They were hit less than two and a half minutes earlier.
They might be saved.
People stand around.
One strolls past the dying brother's flowing lifeblood and calls to Hassan, but no urgency.

My explanation is that everyone knows there is no victim.
What is yours?

A few yards to the right of the ladder, a similar flow can be seen coming down the side from the deck above.
No one cares about that either.

The time has come for us to agree to differ Carol.
The downloads all have the missing 15 seconds now.
I think it is going to go back to being paint, but we will see.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

Which video or video sequence are you referencing in your last post, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM

Do you require help finding the other stains?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:47 PM

Keith- you appear not to understand something very simple.
The people on the convoy knew that the Israelis would not shoot at peaceful demonstrators, because that would destroy their (the Israelis') credibility. After all, they are the heirs of the Shoah, of Exodus 1947, of the Warsaw Ghetto. They would recognise legitimate protest against oppression when it was shown to them. Scene in Battleship Potemkin: "Brothers! Would you shoot your comrades?"

Not brothers, like Tsarists the whole world are just enemies to paranoid Israel. They fired on their own credibility and killed what remained of it.

They saw paint balls because live shots were impossible. They hadn't counted on Israel's crackhead sense of invincibility.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 02:52 AM

Paul, Israel has a long history of using lethal force against stone throwing demonstrators.

They pelted the armed boat parties with everything they could pick up and throw, but were so confident of only getting paint in return that people were left to bleed.

It is consistent with what we see but not really believable.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 06:51 AM

Carol, individual eyewitnesses say many things.
That is not to suggest that they are all liars, but their experiences may have jumbled the precise timeline in their memories.

Please use your contacts to establish if the leadership is claiming live fire and significant injuries before the landings.
If not, our scrutinising of these stains is pointless.

The ship's captain is interviewed on IHH site.
The Google translation is poor.
Can kaybý ve yaralanmalarýn çoðu askerlerin ilk giriþi ve üst güverteden aþaðý açtýklarý ateþ esnasýnda gerçek mermiler kullanýlmasý nedeniyle oldu.
Fatalities and injuries are often the first sign of the soldiers and they opened fire down from the upper deck because when real bullets were used.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

Israeli thuggery isn't believable? Unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

The Problem with Eyewitness Testimony:a talk by Barbara Tversky, Professor of Psychology and George Fisher, Professor of Law.   Stanford Law School, April 5, 1999:



http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 01:27 AM

The IHH site is carrying the interview with Laura Stuart.
They use a number of images from the Cultures Of Resistance video, but not the one that you thought showed the blood of the first victim of the Israelis.
http://www.ihh.org.tr/haksizliga-ve-adaletsizlige-karsi-bir-seyler-yapmaya-calisanlarin-gemisi/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 08:40 AM

The captain and chief officer have said that activists prepared weapons hours before the confrontation.
They used a grinder, that was not part of the ship's equipment, to cut steel poles and chains.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 05:04 AM

Iara Lee yesterday posted another piece about her (Cultures Of Resistance) video.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/iara-lee/the-video-israel-doesnt-w_b_621788.html


She now accepts the final death toll as 9.
No wounded thrown into sea etc., and no missing who might have been the victim of the supposed murder clip.
You must now accept that you got that all wrong Carol, and it was false.

She now says, "Prior to the raid they are talking, sleeping, praying or working on their computers. After commandos invade the ship you see men scrambling, the dead and wounded being hurried to the lower decks, away from Israeli gunfire, "

There is no longer the claim of serious injuries prior to landing.
There was no blood.
You were both wrong about that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 05:15 AM

While this nit-picking apologist crap rumbles on - in the real world:
Israel has requested that the United Nations shelves its inquiry into the atrocity in deference to its own - surprise, surprise!
Meanwhile back at the ranch; the Israelis are preparing to demol;ish 22 Palestinian homes in Jerusalem to erect a tourist centre.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 11:43 AM

Meanwhile back at the ranch; the Israelis are preparing to demol;ish 22 Palestinian homes in Jerusalem to erect a tourist centre.

But that doesn't matter because the Israelis have God's favour, and the Palestinians are brown.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM

Israel has committed a war crime against not only the Gazan people but those who want to see them have basic human rights. There is no legitimate defense for Israel's violent action using commandos to attack an unarmed ship whose motivation was clear at the outset.

Once again, the American-Israeli-Public-Affairs-Committee have disseminated their
insane propaganda and are helping to make Israel the pariah of the world.

And Obama is going along with this criminal behavior.

With this type of apartheid and oppression against Gazans, how can Israel be a friend to the U.S.? Their policies are a denial of democracy and basic human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:46 AM

Yes, if you believe everything the activists say, and nothing the Israelis say.
If you only accept that for which there is evidence then you can not justify your verdict, and you just become part of the propaganda war.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 09:25 AM

"Yes, if you believe everything the activists say, and nothing the Israelis say."
No act of piracy, no occupation of Palestinian land, no wall, no phophorus weapons used in the last incursion, no bombing of hospitals and schools, no shooting down of civilians, no opposition to UN enquiry, no demolition of homes in Gaza, no proposal to demolish 22 Palestinian homes to construct a tourist centre, no blockade...........
Which of these are inventions of activists and without back-up evidence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 10:04 AM

Jim, this thread is about the aid convoy.
I agree Israelis lie.
The other side also lies.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:44 PM

Are rights activists and NGO's "the other side"?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

This thread is about the aid convoy, and by the other side I mean IHH.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:41 PM

"I agree Israelis lie."
All politicians lie - they don't kill women and children - not all of them anyway.
You cannot separate the attack on the aid convoy from the rest of their atrocities; they are all part of the same objective; usurpation of Palesrtinian territory (even 22 houses worth).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM

Was it an atrocity?
How do you know?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

"Was it an atrocity?
How do you know? "

We won't for sure. At least not until the transparent impartial international investigation takes place..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 07:42 PM

How will you know it's impartial?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 08:15 PM

Simple common sense really - troops who board a ship and kill a number of the passengers in international waters are pirates who are guilty of an atrocity - quite apart from the other atrocities they have committed which Keith and co. have carefully ducked (the use of chemical weapons on a civilian population; the bombing of hospitals and schools, the attempt to starve the Palestinians into submission.....) how much evidence do you want - it's all there. If none of these things happened - please feel free to say so.
I never thought I'd say it but Israel now bears all the hallmarks of a Nazi state - they have learned well from their former persecutors.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 11:44 PM

FWIW:

Iranian aid flotilla canceled

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 02:02 AM

It is not that clear cut Jim.

Piracy?
This is what BBC says.

Israel breach international law?
This is disputed. A Turkish draft resolution circulated at the UN Security Council described the attack as a violation of international law. Turkish foreign minister Ahmet Davutoglu called the raid "tantamount to banditry and piracy" and "murder conducted by a state".
Israel's foreign ministry says that under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. It adds: "Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law."
The question may hinge on whether the blockade itself is legal.

Did they start killing people Jim?
There is no evidence they did, and considerable evidence that they had no intention of using lethal force, but were themselves subject to attack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM

""Did they start killing people Jim?
There is no evidence they did, and considerable evidence that they had no intention of using lethal force, but were themselves subject to attack.""

Nine dead bodies on one side, and onthe other side? No dead, and only one with an injury considered serious (and that based on a statement by the side that did the killing).

What would you consider to be evidence then?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:29 AM

"Did they start killing people Jim?"
They have ben killing those who got in the way of their land accession ambitions for over forty decades - little wonder you want to confine this to their latest act of piracy.
If you mean did they start killing people on the convoy - I'm pretty sure they'll find themselves 'not guilty' when they carry out their 'impartial' enquiry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM

Don, you and Jim are childishly simplistic in your assessments.
We have no objective evidence of how the deaths occurred.

We do know that the first soldiers landed with paintball guns in their hands, and holstered pistols.

It could easily be, that faced with an overwhelming number of suicidal fanatics armed with clubs and chains, they used their pistols to save their lives.
That would all be entirely consistent with the evidence we do have.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:38 AM

"I'm pretty sure they'll find themselves 'not guilty' when they carry out their 'impartial' enquiry."

Surely not!

Oh yeah, that's right the US blocked a transparent independent international enquiry. Though we will have a couple of token "friends of Israel" ineffectually hanging about.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 08:26 AM

We have no objective evidence of how the deaths occurred.

Sure we do! Obviously phaser fire from an alien spacecraft.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 08:53 AM

Circumstances of the deaths, I should have said.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

""Don, you and Jim are childishly simplistic in your assessments.
We have no objective evidence of how the deaths occurred.

We do know that the first soldiers landed with paintball guns in their hands, and holstered pistols.""

YEAH! It must have been really frightening having all those vicious thugs marching rapidly backwards towards them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

Don T,

You obviously have not seen the videos as presented by CarolC et al.


Or do you just like to state lies to make yourself feel significant?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 02:00 PM

""Don T,

You obviously have not seen the videos as presented by CarolC et al.


Or do you just like to state lies to make yourself feel significant?""

BB, with your posting record, it ill behoves you to comment on the significance of others.

Read the facts again about where the nine dead men took bullets. I don't think there's too much mileage in attacking people with your back towards them, Do You?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 02:12 PM

One last time.

1. Israel's government admitted its real purpose in opposing a blockade.

The purpose given is not a legal reason for said blockade.

Ergo, the blockade is illegal, the boarding of the ships was an act of piracy, perpetrated outside of Israeli territorial limits, and the ensuing deaths were murder sanctioned by the Israeli government.

2. Israel expects that it will be allowed to carry out its own investigation, into the circumstances of its own criminal actions, and Uncle Sam supports it.

3. The people of the Gaza Strip continue to go short of food, building materials, and many other items which have no military value, and the west sits back and watches.

4. Two or three posters on this forum continue to support and approve this new form of slow genocide, whether because they have Israeli, or Jewish connections, or because they simply get a kick out of shit stirring, I do not know.

I do think that they should be damned ashamed to call themselves human beings.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 03:42 AM

"We have no objective evidence of how the deaths occurred."
In which case, why are the Israelis insisting on carrying out their own enquiry AS THE HAVE FOLLOWING EVERY OTHER ATROCITY THEY HAVE COMMITTED - which you continue to ignore? I assume you have no excuse to offer for these.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM

Confirming guest post mine.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:28 AM

"It is normal for countries to carry out their own investigations."
With Israel's track record of committing atrocities and continually finding themselves not guilty it is not acceptible - especially as this last lot were committed in international waters (but that's legal because Israel's foreign ministry have given it the nod).
Perhaps that nice Mr Goebells should have conducted the Nuremberg War Crimes trials!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:44 AM

Your constant evoking of Nazi analogies says much about you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM

There is a comparison between the behaviour of the Israelis and the Nazis and your defence of that behaviour says much about you.
And by the way Keith - the Bloody Sunday reports (both of them) were carried out by the culprit nation - remind me again how long it took to arrive at an honest one!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 10:47 AM

We could argue that a country can not investigate its own armed forces.
No other country would agree to that for itself.
Special rules for countries you do not approve of?

You and Don and Lox and Carol have decided that an atrocity must have occurred in the face of compelling evidence that it has not,
because Israel always and only commits atrocities.
Never mind that all other boardings have been carried out without loss off life.
That is blind prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 10:56 AM

"There is a comparison between the behaviour of the Israelis and the Nazis...."

This statement is preposterous and offensive to the extreme!!!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 11:20 AM

"This statement is preposterous and offensive to the extreme!!!"
I wonder if it as offensive as somebody using the dead of the Holocaust to defend the behaviour of the Israelis - I doubt it somehow!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 12:49 PM

Are you saying that Bobad or I have done that?
If not, please say so, and then explain why you thought it acceptable to make that post.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 12:56 PM

"There is a comparison between the behaviour of the Israelis and the Nazis...."

This statement is preposterous and offensive to the extreme!!!

At what point do we have to agree that it's actually not preposterous? What more do the Israelis have to do? Or are you saying it is always preposterous a priori? If so, why? Once again you appear to be giving the Israelis carte blanche because of wrongs suffered by Jews in the Shoa. That does not honour truth, nor the victims of the Shoa.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 12:59 PM

"Are you saying that Bobad or I have done that?"
This thread has been remarkably free of anti-Semitism, which may be down
to the vigilance of the site administrators, for which I am thankful.
Yet throughout there has been the suggestion anti-Semitism towards those of us who have criticised the behaviour of Israel.
I have not noticed the accusation from you Keith, but perhaps Bobad might care to explain "Your constant evoking of Nazi analogies says much about you."
That is why I thought it acceptable so write what I did.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 02:04 PM

I must say after viewing the Israeli govt's faked video where they dub in some actor saying:

"Shaddap! Go back to Auschvitz!"

any possible credibility they might have had regards an upfront internal investigation, was instantly shot to pieces in my eyes.

...that and any accusations of "anti-Semitism" directed at those critical of Israeli policies.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

How did you react when a video claimed to show the murder of Furkan Dogan turned out to show no murder at all?
Or when you saw that Iara Lee's video was at one time being shown with 15 seconds edited out because Gorfeng appeared saying no live ammunition fired before landing?

Trust neither side to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:28 PM

"How did you react when a video claimed to show the murder of Furkan Dogan turned out to show no murder at all?
Or when you saw that Iara Lee's video was at one time being shown with 15 seconds edited out because Gorfeng appeared saying no live ammunition fired before landing?"

I didn't see those. Was any government body involved in their creation?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:35 PM

"Trust neither side to be honest."

I can understand the idea of caution in respect of anything presented as 'fact' by anyone that one cannot get some degree of outside verification for. It's hard (near impossible) in these online arguments to be certain of the case in any situation. But I wouldn't compare a group of varied international activists to an official government organisation as 'like for like' as you appear to, when speaking of 'sides'.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

It has all been in this thread Crow Sister.
Is it OK to lie for political gain as long as you are not employed by a goverment?

The nurses on board claimed to have dealt with many more than 9 bodies.
Eye witnesses reported seeing bodies and wounded people disposed of into the sea.
None of it was true.
Does that revelation change your attitude about anything?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM

That was an aside by the way, and not really pertinent to the overall question. I kept my (typing) mouth shut over the 'blood v's paint' debate as I had no way of knowing what the case was. However if a government body is to be trusted with an investigation it's best that they don't fake evidence. The fact that everyone knows they faked evidence, means they can't be trusted to undertake an impartial internal investigation. Any conclusions they come to will be tainted by the fact that the whole world KNOWS that they are bare-faced liars!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:46 PM

"Does that revelation change your attitude about anything?"

What it tells me is that there needs to be an impartial independent international investigation - where no proven liars of any supposed 'side' run the show.

I'd say that about any equivalent incident in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM

As I understand it, IDF is not saying that they hoaxed the video of the radio exchange, and they have since posted the full unedited video with those comments still in it.
They are no longer claiming it came from M.Marmara.
Anyone on the convoy, or in the IDF force, or anyone within range with access to a VHF set could have made those comments.

Who knows?
You, Crow Sister?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:56 PM

"They are no longer claiming it came from M.Marmara.
Anyone on the convoy, or in the IDF force, or anyone within range with access to a VHF set could have made those comments."

I see, are you saying that the IDF claimed it came from the M.Marmara without actually knowing where it came from?

Curiouser and curiouser!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 01:45 AM

They say they assumed it was them because that is who they were calling.
They now accept that as an unreasonable assumption.
Not that curious really.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM

""Not that curious really.""

I've noticed that about you Keith.

Nothing is ever curious, which tends to agree with your current spin on the facts. On the other hand, anything which disagrees with your argument is very curious, and must be subjected to analysis on the basis of your highly specialised knowledge of everything from Military History to Middle East Politics.

And it is odd how, in your estimation, all Israeli government action is not to be queried or criticised.

Have you got shares in Israel?

I recall you had very similar one sided attitudes to the Northern Ireland situation, a short time ago.

You seem to enjoy backing bullies, and kicking their victims.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 02:03 AM

I have not discussed "Middle East Politics" at all!
You made that up.
Why?
"One sided attidudes" is not something you can accuse me of.
I have treated the claims of both sides with scepticism and considered how they stand up to objective scrutiny of the evidence.
You and others have shown a healthy scepticism of Israeli claims, but swallowed without question all those of the anti israel lobby like naive and gullible children.
All those things I listed to Crow Sister were accepted by people here, and we now know they were false.

And you Don.
There are deaths, so Israel must have committed an atrocity.
They had wounds to their backs, so must have been running away.

You do not need "specialised knowledge of military history" to know that is nonsense.
Just a moment's consideration of the circumstances without prejudice.

Israel may well be lying about the VHF exchange, but they have come up with a plausible story consistent with the evidence we have so far.
There is nothing curious about their explanation is there?
Tell us how you just know it is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 03:08 AM

Don, you brought up the Bloody Sunday thread in the context of me supporting bullies.

Can I remind you that in that thread I argued AGAINST the fascist bully boy who wanted to deprive the people of the North of their human and civil rights to choose their own government, and to impose on them by force a regime for which they have refused to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:04 AM

"I argued AGAINST the fascist bully boy"
I do hope you're not talking about me - I think you've done your share of "fascist" mud-slinging on one thread to allow it to spill over into this one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:38 AM

For the record - on the Bloody Sunday thread you have consistently excused and attempted to divert the blame from a government whose soldiers shot down innocent and unarmed civilian demonstraters, choosing to blame the men in the ranks (not the officers) rather than those who sent them in, possibly encouraged them, and certaily covered up for them for nearly four decades.
On this thread you have defended an act of outright piracy which ended in the killing of some of the passengers of the vessel they boarded. You have refused to acknowledge that the people responsible for this have usurped territory, destroyed homes, ghettoised occupants, used heavy weapons (including phosphorus bombs) on a civilian population in order to occupy the land that have taken over.
Please stand away from that mirror when you fling your 'facist' epithets about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM

Is there any news of 'Miriam' the all-female Lebanese ship which plansed to set sail for Gaza on a humanitarian mission carrying about 30 Lebanese and 20 foreigners, including several European nationals Muslim, Christian and secular?

It was reported that the ship will carry four nuns from the U.S., cancer medication and other humanitarian aid.

Israel's UN ambassador has repeated that -
"Israel reserves its right under international law to use all necessary means to prevent these ships from violating the existing naval blockade imposed on the Gaza Strip'

Israel Radio reported that Defense Minister Ehud Barak warned the Lebanese government that it would be held responsible for ships sailing from Lebanon to the Gaza Strip - so watch out Dublin! (the port of origin of the MV Rachel Corrie)

The Lebanese Shiite movement Hezbollah said that it would not take part in Gaza-bound aid missions so as not to give a pretext for Israel to attack Lebanon.


Although, in response to international outrage following the deadly commando raid on a flotilla of ships carrying aid to Gaza, Israel has relaxed its strict land blockade of Gaza allowing more food and some restricted construction materials to enter the strip there is no relaxation of the ban stopping Gazans from leaving what is effectively an open-air prison.

The commissioner-general of the U.N. refugee agency, Filipo Grandi says the Gaza Strip crisis is more than just a humanitarian situation and that people in Gaza need to import and export goods in order to boost the economy and to give the citizenry there a "normal life."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM

""There are deaths, so Israel must have committed an atrocity.
They had wounds to their backs, so must have been running away.""

Let's see if your logic is up to the task of handling a simple concept.

Hypothetically:- I have a hand gun. There are a number of people who are threatening to hit me on the head (well actually, the bullet resistant helmet) with iron bars.

I have choices.

1. I fire in the air, which in most cases would clear my opponents without bloodshed.

2. I fire at the nearest and most dangerous opponent, killing or injuring him, and the rest head for the hills.


What I do NOT do, is to continue shooting those fleeing opponents up to four times in the back.

1. It simply isn't necessary.
2. It simply IS murder.

Now, perhaps you with your vastly superior knowledge can explain to me in what other circumstances, most of the dead could have bullet entry holes in their backs?

And please don't suggest that anybody can mount a serious attack with his back to the intented victim.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 06:20 AM

""Don, you brought up the Bloody Sunday thread in the context of me supporting bullies.""

DID I? That's news to me, pal.

Kindly point to my mention of Bloody Sunday, or the thread of that name.

NO? Of course not, because I never mentioned either.

I was referring to your well documented spats with Irish Catters Ard and Sweeney, among others when you demonstrated the same skewed disrespect for their views.

WELL DOCUMENTED on several threads.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 07:14 AM

I confess that, irritated beyond tolerance that a thread can be effectively sabotaged by continual nit picking, I drew attention to the tedious and diversionary similarities between the interminable cul de sac (or should that be roundabout? ) of posts on this thread and the Saville Enquiry thread

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B - PM
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:46 AM

Now as I concluded in that post (my last on this thread until today for that reason)

"Please may we move on there are important issues and it is gratifying to see that at least one outcome of this attack is the international attention and disapprobation* that has pressurized Israel to allow more humanitarian aid through to the beseiged beleaguered Gazan population"

{* yeah ok it WAS a typo!}

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has taken note of the internal inquiry set up by Israel on the flotilla incident, but said that such an investigation would lack "international credibility". "My position is that there should be international credibility of their investigation"

Meanwhile, it is reported that
"Key supporters of the Israeli-right in the United States are now demanding with full force, Turkey's phased exit from the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO)."
- Business Magazine

The pro Israeli influential Washington based, Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA) group adds that the U.S. should now "seriously consider suspending military cooperation with Turkey as a prelude to removing it from the organisation".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 03:03 PM

Don, I have replied on the Bloody Sunday thread, since it is about Bloody Sunday.
thread.cfm?threadid=130131&messages=140&page=1&desc=yes#2936147

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 03:09 PM

Sorry, that last for Jim.

Don, you posted about my comments on NI "a short time ago."

The Bloody Sunday thread was a few days ago, my debates with Divis and Ard were years ago, so don't get all sarcastic about which thread you meant!
In those years old threads I argued AGAINST the fascist bully boys of the IRA who wanted to deprive the people of the North of their human and civil rights to choose their own government, and to impose on them by force a regime for which they have refused to vote.

So no change there then.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

Jim, you have accused that, "On this thread you have defended an act of outright piracy ..."

No I have not.
I have said that the legality is being debated.
(Piracy is the wrong term anyway. A state can not be accused of piracy.)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 09:12 PM

You still haven't answered how shooting somebody in the back is an act of self-defense.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 01:26 AM

It is not, but it could be an act of defending someone else in the melee.
Remember the very close range of many of the shots?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 02:12 AM

That many? and that many holes in each? You're stretching it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:06 AM

This is a distasteful subject Mousethief, but the multiple wounds of the dead argues against indiscriminate shooting.

A 9mm round often does not stop someone. British soldiers and no doubt others are trained to fire multiples.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 05:43 AM

American Jews for a Just Peace is

'proud to announce that we will serve as the U.S. Coordinator for the "Jewish Boat to Gaza."

The boat, sponsored by a coalition of international Jewish organizations dedicated to peace with justice in Israel/Palestine, is scheduled to sail from an undisclosed location in the Mediterranean this July.
It will head toward Gaza in an effort to break the siege imposed by Israel in 2006.
Passengers will include Jews from Germany, the U.K., and the United States, including at least one survivor of the Nazi Holocaust.

The moral imperative to end the siege of Gaza is absolute. When governments fail to act, ordinary people must organize to intervene. As ordinary people of conscience, we are determined to act on behalf of the people in Gaza deprived of their right to ordinary lives.'

AJJP

Meanwhile - a change of tactic?

I posted about the Miriam on 28 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM

"the all-female Lebanese ship which plansed to set sail for Gaza on a humanitarian mission carrying about 30 Lebanese and 20 foreigners, including several European nationals Muslim, Christian and secular
It was reported that the ship will carry four nuns from the U.S., cancer medication and other humanitarian aid."

I can't read Hebrew but an advert is said to have appeared in the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot, seeking
"Women with great physical strength and motivations" who are needed on a volunteer basis to attack and evacuate women from the Lebanese aid ship.
It also has a voice mail number for the volunteers to call and enlist.
Israeli Organization Places Ad for Volunteers To Attack Solidarity Ships

Perhaps someone can confirm or refute this?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM

The UN Security Council statement of 31 May said that there must be an "impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards." into the attack and deaths on board the aid flotilla

Should any Israeli-run inquiry have any credibility outside of Israel?


"it is no wonder that the world does not trust Israeli investigations"

Comment by the lawyer acting on behalf of American peace activist Tristan Anderson, shot in the head with a tear-gas canister on 13 March 2009 while taking photos following a demonstration against the apartheid wall in the West Bank village of Ni'lin.

While the findings of the Israeli investigation, found a "lack of wrongdoing" by Israeli border forces Tristan's family have filed an appeal based on an independent investigation.

'The appeal, which pointed out grave flaws and negligence in the original investigation, was based on an independent investigation, held parallel to the one the police conducted.

It shows clearly that the police decided to close the case despite the fact that the investigating team had never visited the scene of the shooting, and as a result questioned officers who had nothing to do with Anderson's shooting and, in fact, could have had nothing to do with the shooting, as there was no direct line of fire between where they were positioned and were Anderson was shot.

A second Border Police crew, which was located in the area where Anderson was shot from according to all civilian eye witnesses, was never questioned at all.
The force's commanders, who carry responsibility for the shooting were also not held accountable.

Nancy Anderson, Tristan's mother: "We expect someone to finally take responsibility for our son's shooting.
It is unimaginable to us that soldiers will shoot unarmed civilians whose sole crime was to demonstrate, and that no one will be held accountable. The re-launching of the investigation, so we hope, is a much needed first step towards justice for us and for our son." '

- Joseph Dana, American-Israeli freelance journalist

Compiling civilian eyewitness testimony and reports from the Palestinian Red Crescent, the independent investigation determined that accounts presented by the Israeli investigation were impossible.
Contrary to Israel's claim, Tristan was not shot "during clashes" with the soldiers and was not in a closed military zone either

nihil novi!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM

"I have said that the legality is being debated."
Only by an Israeli minister who has offered no proof.
But let's see what their 'impartial' enquiry comes up with.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM

Jim, it is debated by experts on international law.
Proof of legality???

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 02:53 PM

"Jim, it is debated by experts on international law."
Whose experts on international law and to what conclusion?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM

""The Bloody Sunday thread was a few days ago, my debates with Divis and Ard were years ago, so don't get all sarcastic about which thread you meant!""

If I had meant just one thread I would have named it. I did not mention "Bloody Sunday", so don't get snotty because you make unwarranted assumptions based on insufficient, or no, evidence, or maybe because those assumptions would bolster your arguments better than the truth.

Tune up your mind reading ability, because it isn't working.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:12 AM

Don, you said "a short time ago"
I am entitled to get snotty if you expect me to read your mind, and then get all sarcastic because I went by what you actually typed!
Knob.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:14 AM

Jim, here is one expert debating the legality.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article7142055.ece

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 03:45 AM

"but it also tells us that those blockades must meet humanitarian standards to be lawful."
Humanitarianism isn't the word that spring to mind when the blockade of Gaza by Israel is discussed - now where did I put that list of banned items?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM

Yes, but the legality is not clear.
They argue that they let in enough essentials to cover it.
It is debated.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 05:21 AM

"They argue that they let in enough essentials to cover it.
It is debated."

'Debated' by who?

"The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger," senior Israeli government advisor Dov Weisglass explained in 2006.

According to the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation says 61% of Gazans are "food insecure".
The UN agency for Palestinian refugees, Unrwa, reports that 80% of Gazan households rely on some kind of food aid.


Aid agencies operating in Gaza say they have largely been able to continue to transport basic supplies such as flour and cooking oil into the territory.

Unrwa provides food aid for 750,000 people, half the population.
However, its food distribution has been suspended several times since June 2007 as a result of border closures or fuel shortages

These rations provide about two-thirds of dietary needs, and so need to be supplemented by dairy products, meat, fish and fresh fruit and vegetables. Some of these items are grown locally, some allowed in from Israel, and some were smuggled in through tunnels under the Egypt-Gaza border.

But after Operation Cast Lead and its devastating effect on infrastructure Palestinian Bureau of Statistics estimate unemployment at 38.6% in early 2010; some Gazans cannot afford the basics, even if they are physically available.

Even before the Israeli military operation in December and January 2009 disrupted food aid transfer and distribution significantly, as well as causing what the UN FAO estimates at $180m of damage to the agricultural sector ....

A UN survey in 2008 found more than half Gaza's households had sold their disposable assets and were relying on credit to buy food, three-quarters of Gazans were buying less food than in the past, and almost all were eating less fresh fruit, vegetables and animal protein to save money.

ACCORDING TO THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, ONE THIRD OF CHILDREN UNDER FIVE AND WOMEN OF CHILDBEARING AGE ARE ANAEMIC.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 05:34 AM

I am not supporting the blockade Emma, but why do the Gazan's expect Israel to be nice to them when they are so nasty to Israel?
They elect to government a party dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
They launch rockets at Israeli civillians.
They hold a soldier prisoner without Red Crescent visits for years.

Israel ought to be nice in return, but they choose to be only as nice as the law demands.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM

Sometimes aid can't get through because Gazans attack the crossing points.
Why do they do that?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 06:04 AM

Which 'law' demands Gaza be turned into an open air prison and its citizens be metered out collective punishment Keith?

Under the United Nations charter states have the right to self-defense, (jus ad bellum) but defensive actions should not exceed necessity.
States may deter future assaults aggressively, but they're not supposed to launch a counterattack that's radically incommensurate with the actual threat.

International humanitarian law takes into account the legitimate military imperatives of warring parties.
There is no justification for perpetrating serious violations of IHL.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

""Israel ought to be nice in return, but they choose to be only as nice as the law demands.""

When was the last time that Israel gave a damn about what the law demands?

That's what this damn row, the rockets, and the election of Hamas is all about.Israel started, as you put it, "not being nice to the Gazans" decades ago, not last month.

Have you no humanity at all?

This is a population struggling to survive the illegal attentions of a vastly stronger neighbour (both numerically, and militarily).

Had the Germans managed to invade this country, your type would have been first in line to use on them the selfsame tactics which you decry, when used against your Israeli pals.

And I will refrain from responding to the above epithet in kind. You can just read my mind, to find out what I think of you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM

Look, I said I DID NOT support the blockde.

Israel does let some aid in. We know it is not enough, but they let it through to comply with the law.
Otherwise none Don. Right?

If the attacks on Israel stopped, would the flow of aid be likely to increase or decrease?
If the soldier was shown to be OK, would it be likely to increase or decrease?

And if they stopped calling for the destruction of Israel....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 11:35 AM

" but they let it through to comply with the law."

First let's look at some 'laws' Keith

We'll start with the obvious one which has been discussed here the naval and land blockade

The 1909 Declaration Concerning the Laws of Naval War (the London Declaration), the first international instrument to acknowledge the legality of blockades, specifically recognized the right of belligerents to blockade their enemy during time of war.
Article 97 of the San Remo Manual does likewise

But what justifies a blockade in non-international armed conflict (NIAC)? The London Declaration does not justify such a blockade, because it only applies to "war"– war being understood at the time as armed conflict between two states.

The seeming absence of support for blockades in NIAC is obviously important, because it is difficult to argue that Israel is involved in an IAC with Hamas.

First, it is obviously not in a traditional IAC, because Gaza is not a state.
Second, not even Israel claims that the conflict has been internationalized by the involvement of another state.
And third, although the Israeli Supreme Court held — controversially — in the Targeted Killings case that armed conflict between an occupying power and a rebel group is international, Israel's official position is that it not currently occupying Gaza.

Insofar as Israel insists that it is not currently occupying Gaza, it cannot plausibly claim that it is involved in an IAC with Hamas. And if it is not currently involved in an IAC with Hamas, it is difficult to see how it can legally justify the blockade of Gaza.

Its blockade of Gaza, therefore, seems to depend on its willingness to concede that it is occupying Gaza and is thus in an IAC with Hamas.

But Israel does not want to do that, because it would then be bound by the very restrictive rules of belligerent occupation in the Fourth Geneva Convention

As an occupying power that exercises effective control over Gaza, Israel has legal obligations to the residents of the occupied territory under the Fourth Geneva Convention, including the general duty to protect civilians under its control, and the specific duty to allow adequate access to food and medical supplies

Israel's claim that its occupation of Gaza ended with its 2005 withdrawal of troops and settlers from the Strip is an attempt to absolve itself of responsibility for Gazan civilians.
The continued control of Gaza's territorial waters, its airspace, the flow of people and goods through its land borders, and its continued ground and air incursions into the territory, verify that it exercises the "effective control" necessary to qualify as a foreign occupying power under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Even if the Gaza Strip were not occupied, Israel would still be constrained by the principle of proportionality in imposing the blockade.

This means that the military advantage gained must outweigh the harm caused the civilian population.

To comply with the law -

IT MEANS THAT THE BLOCKADE MAY BE NO MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN IS NECESSARY FOR MILITARY PURPOSES !

In other words there is no justification in law whatsoever for the refusal to allow in hundreds of items of food plus batteries for hearing aids, childrens crayons, school books, shoes, musical instruments hair brushes and the many purely arbitary list of banned goods which it took a court case to uncover except to break the spirit of the 1.5 million residents

Israel's stated objective in imposing the blockade is largely not military, but political in nature, namely, to weaken Gaza's economy and decrease support for Hamas.
The damage that the blockade has caused to the civilian population is therefore clearly disproportionate to any military advantage Israel could obtain from the blockade.


Settlements and international law

The consensus view of the international community is that the building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is illegal under international law.

The primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice, found the settlements to be illegal under international law.
The Court's finding was based on the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention and UN Security council resolutions, which condemned establishment of settlements and attempts by Israel to alter the demographics of the territories under its control.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 11:51 AM

I am no lawyer Emma.
I will rephrase my statement for you.

Israel does let some aid in. We know it is not enough, but they let it through to claim compliance with the law.

Disregarding the law would be letting nothing through. Right Don?

If the attacks on Israel stopped, would the flow of aid be likely to increase or decrease?
If the soldier was shown to be OK, would it be likely to increase or decrease?

And if they stopped calling for the destruction of Israel....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 12:39 PM

Keith can you come up with ANY argument that the naval and land blockade of Gaza represents anything other than collective punishment in order to push the Palestinians and make them create a pressure on Hamas after it won the parliamentary elections?

The blockade, preventing all exports from Gaza and confining imports to a limited supply of humanitarian goods, has failed to bring down Hamas but has heaped misery on Gaza's 1.5 million residents.


There is no doubt that some Israelis justify the Israeli blockade solely by saying that it has to continue because of the imprisoned Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit who was taken hostage in the time the Israeli army was acting within Gaza borders.
(However nearly three-quarters of Israelis said recently they would back a prisoner swap deal, in a Yediot Aharonot poll.)

According to UN statistics, around 70% of Gazans live on less than $1 a day, 75% rely on food aid, 60% have no daily access to water and over half of under five year olds suffer from malnutition.

Even though the Palestinian militant group holding the soldier as hostage deny access as you point out -

Can you justify that this represents proportinate action?

Unfortunately the plight of detainees is used by both sides of the Israel/Gaza conflict as bargaining chips in political negotiations.

Since early June 2007, the Israeli authorities have barred all family visits for some 900 Palestinians from Gaza detained in Israeli prisons. Up to then, visits were already limited to some family members only.

Some people have not seen their jailed relatives for a decade or more. (figure from Amnesty)


Are you aware that in 2006 Hamas dropped any call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto, a move that brings the group closer to the mainstream Palestinian position of building a state within the boundaries of the occupied territories?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:05 PM

"They argue that they let in enough essentials to cover it."
The have consitently refused to let in concrete to rebuild the schools and ospitals they razed to the ground in their last incursion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 03:24 PM

"Keith can you come up with ANY argument that the naval and land blockade of Gaza represents anything other than collective punishment in order to push the Palestinians and make them create a pressure on Hamas after it won the parliamentary elections?"

The Israelis argue that Iran for instance would try to get weapons in.
Do you have any arguments that they would not?

"Can you justify that this represents proportinate action? "
No.
If it were my son though, I might well answer yes.

"The have consitently refused to let in concrete to rebuild the schools and ospitals they razed to the ground in their last incursion.
Jim Carroll "
They say they have refused concrete to build bunkers and rocket silos.

Aid is held up when Hamas attacks the crossing points.
Why do they do that?
Has Hamas allowed in the aid carried by the flotilla yet?
Why the delay?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 02:35 AM

A few people make a lot of money by bringing stuff in through the tunnels, and Hamas takes its cut.
When a large batch of aid comes in, the inflated price of tunnel goods takes a nosedive.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 05:51 AM

"Has Hamas allowed in the aid carried by the flotilla yet?
Why the delay?"

June 30th

"One month after Israeli commandos killed nine Turks in a raid on a flotilla trying to break the Gaza blockade, the ships' cargo of aid has begun to arrive here by land, starting Wednesday with 82 second-hand battery-powered scooters for the handicapped.

The cargo has been sitting in Israel for weeks while the Hamas authorities, the Israeli military and international aid agencies negotiated its fate.
Israel wanted to send in only materials that it was sure could not be used for weapons by Hamas.
It also did not want the sponsor of the flotilla, a Turkish Islamic charity known by the initials I.H.H., to distribute the goods
because of its close ties to Hamas

In the end, the United Nations agreed to distribute the goods.

A convoy of 128 trucks carried the cargo into Gaza from Israel as the American Middle East envoy, George J. Mitchell, watched from the Israeli side. He expressed approval at Israel's agreement, in the wake of the flotilla disaster, to ease its blockade somewhat, though the movement of goods and people out of Gaza remains largely blocked.

Mr. Daher, of the World Health Organization, told Israel he would NOT accept the scooters without their batteries and chargers, something Israeli officials considered withholding out of fear they would be diverted to militant use."

From The New York Times

Hamas had said that it would accept the cargo in its entirety including the batteries required by the scooters and the much needed cement

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 07:24 AM

Thanks Emma. I am glad it has been accepted now.

This was on 17th June.
Thirty loaded trucks have been stuck at the Kerem Shalom crossing into the Gaza Strip, while another 40 truck-loads of aid are being stored in warehouses operated by the Israeli Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA) for the Strip.

The trucks contain desperately needed medical supplies, such as hospital beds and wheelchairs, and building materials.

"The UN will take responsibility for the delivery of the aid cargo," Ahmed Yousef, deputy foreign minister of the Hamas-led government in Gaza, said. He added that some other international aid relief organizations would join the UN in the distribution process.

The Hamas government initially decided not to receive any of the flotilla's aid before the release of those passengers "kidnapped and held hostage" by Israel and not until all the flotilla's relief supplies were greenlighted to enter Gaza, Ghazi Hamad, head of borders and crossings under the Hamas-led government, told IRIN.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/0036878dd5a26059afaa5d42abf42317.htm

Wikipedia says,
According to Israeli and Palestinian sources, as of 2 June 2010 Hamas refused to allow the humanitarian aid into Gaza until Israeli authorities released all flotilla detainees and allowed building materials, which are thought to make up the majority, 8,000 of the 10,000 tons of the goods, to reach them.[69][194][195] Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said, "We are not seeking to fill our (bellies), we are looking to break the Israeli siege on Gaza."[196]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 08:47 AM

Emma, you clipped a sentence from your NY Times report.

I will add brackets to the missing bit for you.

Israel wanted to send in only materials that it was sure could not be used for weapons by Hamas. It also did not want the sponsor of the flotilla, a Turkish Islamic charity known by the initials I.H.H., to distribute the goods because of its close ties to Hamas. (Hamas, meanwhile, said it wanted either all the aid or nothing.)

In the end, the United Nations agreed

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 08:49 AM

And, you forgot the link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/01/world/middleeast/01gaza.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 09:01 AM

The compelling need for building materials -

"During the three-year blockade, the U.N. has been forced to put nearly $110 million worth of construction projects on hold, including six schools, five clinics and 2,300 apartments for Gaza's poorest and those made homeless by past Israeli military operations.

In coming days, Israel will review building projects with representatives of international organizations, including the U.N., said Maj. Guy Inbar, a Defense Ministry official.
If there are no security concerns, talks will begin on how much material is needed, he said.

Such a procedure was in place during the blockade, BUT ONLY ONE U.N. CONSTRUCTION PROJECT WAS EVER APPROVED AND THEN ONLY AFTER THE DIRECT INTERVENTION BY U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL BAN KI-MOON.
Cement and other building materials were delivered only last month.

Even before the blockade, most of Gaza's 119 U.N. schools were overcrowded, running morning and afternoon shifts with as many as 50 students crammed into a classroom.

With no new schools being built and a third shift deemed unacceptable, even by Gaza's harsh standards, alternatives were hard to find. One principal rented space outside his school to store supplies so he could turn a storage room into another classroom.

In the Nusseirat refugee camp, the U.N. turned 17 shipping containers into a school for nearly 900 middle school boys at the start of the 2009-2010 school year.
Principal Hamdan al-Hor said parents initially did not want to send their children there, but conditions became more tolerable when he mounted fans to circulate the stifling hot air.
Welders cut openings for doors and windows and whitewashed the metal walls, transforming the containers into classrooms, as well as a small science lab, a library and a computer rooms. A sandy lot serves as a playground.

Still, even the container model couldn't be copied elsewhere because Israel stalled on U.N. requests to allow in dozens more containers, with the first batch only arriving toward the end of the school year, U.N. officials said."

AP report by Karin Laub

BBC News video
- a look at stalled UN reconstruction projects and the use of tunnels to import the cement that the UN can't use.

'If the blockade doesn't make Gaza watertight - why does it continue?'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 07:17 PM

""Israel does let some aid in. We know it is not enough, but they let it through to claim compliance with the law.

Disregarding the law would be letting nothing through. Right Don?""

Keith, you amaze me.

You don't see that there is a world of difference between claiming compliance, and actually complying.

You can't "half" obey the law, you are either obeying it or you are not.

This is the selfsame nonsense which culminated in Saddam Hussain losing, first, control of his country, and eventually his life.

Israel get away with it, Iraq didn't.

It ain't what you do, it's who your pals are.

And if you are friendly with the USA, it appears that the normally accepted limits of behaviour simply do not apply.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:36 AM

All true Don, but completely one sided.
They can claim to comply with the law, and then we can only let the lawyers argue it out.
Does Hamas even do that.
Their rocket attacks and teatment of prisoners for instance is in total disregard of international laws.

We all wondered why Israel could be so suspicious about wheelchairs.
We assumed they were the basic sort.
We were not told that they were really motorised scooters that came with those useful heavy duty batteries and chargers.
How generous.
A pity IHH was not so generous with its "medical supplies"
The Gazans needed cancer drugs and medicine for hemophilia and cystic fibrosis."
What they got was Tamiflu.
Tamiflu was stockpiled in vast amounts during the swineflu panic.
Now you could not give it away.
Except to Gazans obviously.

(You will find all this in the NY Times piece I linked to, and which Emma supplied a carefully edited piece from.)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:22 AM

Keith - I resent the implication I 'edit' with the intent to deceive.

As I have explained on another post, where I was criticized for copying a section of a report verbatim, I tend to give the 'gist' of the report with some quotes and the source - which in the case you cite was suffcient to refer back to, with or without a link - you obviously had no difficulty!

"We assumed they were the basic sort.
We were not told that they were really motorised scooters that came with those useful heavy duty batteries and chargers"

correction - YOU assumed Keith!

If you look back over the thread I think you will find references to motorized scooters, if not there were very many such references in the press

At one stage the Israel military reported -

"Major Guy Inbar, the Israeli military official charged with liaising with Palestinian officials told the German Press Agency dpa that Hamas was refusing to allow the aid in through Israeli-controlled border crossings over land.
Inbar denied charges by Hamas officials that the transfer of the electric wheelchairs to the Kerem Shalom crossing was a propaganda move and a "deception" because Israel had allegedly removed their batteries.

"The batteries are in the mini-scooters. That's another lie that you heard from the Hamas spokesman," he said.

Haaretz 8th June

But, in fact, we now know that wasn't true as the representative of the WHO negoitiated for the provision of the wheelchair batteries


The medical supplies were not matched to the need of the Gazans - this has also been extensively reported - however you will also find very similar reports about the type of inappropiate medical donations sent to Haiti in reaction to the recent disaster

From one Red Cross blog

"I spend a large amount of my time post-disaster speaking on the phone with people who tell me that they don't just want to donate money but they want to do more.
They have medical items, clothes or food to give instead.
People sometimes get cross or upset when I turn down their well meant offer.
And that's the point; their offer is genuinely well intentioned. They just aren't aware of the reasons why the Red Cross can't take these goods. Unfortunately I don't always have the time to fully explain why. Last Friday I spent more than half a day taking such calls for Haiti

In the Venezuela floods in 2000, seventy percent of donated pharmaceuticals had to be destroyed."


You are correct in identifying the need for drugs to treat cancer.

This is why I was particularly concerned about the progress of the all female aid ship Miriam which is said to be carrying medication for treatment of cancer in children and breast and uterus cancer treatments.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 06:38 AM

Emma, I was surprised and disappointed, but it did look like editing for a purpose.
You gave us an extract. Perfectly reasonable.
But, you deleted the one short sentence that referred to Hamas' initial refusal to let in any of the aid.
And that short sentence was in the middle.

I am sorry if I missed the scooter refs. but I have never heard such vehicles described as wheelchairs before.
I am sure I was not the only one deceived by that.

I have also never heard of such vehicles forming part of an aid shipment either.
And there were hundreds of them!

They are worth hundreds each.
Cement is cheap, Tamiflu worthless, but hundreds of mobility scooters?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:09 AM

"Cement is cheap, Tamiflu worthless, but hundreds of mobility scooters?"

Cement may be cheap but both cement and electric wheelchairs were banned from entry into Gaza - cement still is - so there is a shortage Keith.

However depite the 'worthlessness' of some of the medication (a common feature in this kind of response according to the Red Cross - see my most recent post) I agree with the commentary by James Hider the Times war correspondent that

"For the people of Gaza the most precious commodity on board the Turkish flotilla stormed by Israel last month was not electric wheelchairs or children's toys or medicine: it was hope.

Adults, unable to freely to express their trauma in a deeply traditional society, often develop psychosomatic physical symptoms for which inexperienced doctors prescribe painkillers — leaving many people hooked on prescription drugs. Domestic violence has increased as partners vent their frustration on each other in this sealed-off enclave whose infrastructure has been destroyed by Israeli bombs and cannot be rebuilt because no construction materials are allowed in.

That is why, when the Turkish-led flotilla tried to break the blockade, people in Gaza suddenly felt a renewed hope that the world had not forgotten them entirely"

Full report

Keith, I do not want to get into an interminable nit picking exchange that you seem to revel in with others as I think some issues are too important for that kind of exercise however

PLEASE NOTE -

" you deleted the one short sentence that referred to Hamas' initial refusal to let in any of the aid."

What I said Keith was that
"Hamas had said that it would accept the cargo in its entirety including the batteries required by the scooters and the much needed cement"

Same meaning but not the 'official' Israeli spin

"Be everywhere, and say the same thing / Give no ground / Deny Deny Deny"

and finally

"The last refuge.... When all else fails, point to a few examples of outrageous anti-Semitism, generalize them, suggesting that that is what motivates critics.
It stings, and may be over-used, but it can silence or put critics on the defensive."

How Israel's Propoganda Machine Works The Huffington Post

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:17 AM

I agree with all that Emma.
I have no problem with anything you have said, but you should not have deleted that sentence, and you have not explained why you did it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:46 AM

"you have not explained why you did it."

Keith I appreciate that you have not yet had time to read the article in the Huffington Post from last year
How Israel's Propoganda Machine Works

before replying to my last post with more nit picking totally diverting attention away from the BBC report about the failure to allow the UN to complete desperately needed reconstruction of schools and homes by the Israeli authorities.

If I was as cynical of other peoples motives as you appear to be of mine I might wonder why you continually do this.


"Because it recognizes the importance of the propaganda war, Israel fights on this front as vigorously and disproportionately as it engages on the battlefield."

"Be everywhere, and say the same thing -- and make sure your opponents remain as invisible as possible"

Although this paragraph refers to the reporting of the war the same propaganda methods were applied to the attack on the flotilla and its aftermath

" The work of their propaganda operation, which spreads multiple spokespersons in venues across the United States with consistent talking points, guarantees success.
At the same time, they are able to deny media access to Gaza, only allowing the Western reporters to operate near the war zone under IDF supervision, guaranteeing Israel the opportunity to shape every aspect of the story while removing the possibility of independent verification of the horror unfolding in Gaza."

You emphazized the report that

"Hamas, meanwhile, said it wanted either all the aid or nothing."

I pointed out that in fact Hamas had declared it would accept the aid in its entirety

Now, while the two statements represent the same situation, there is a world of difference in the way they are reported and I think the Israeli propaganda machine has more than enough resources without my needing to repeat this heavily loaded line fed to the, mainly American, press.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 07:58 AM

Google "Hamas Propaganda" and "Palestinian Propaganda" - purely in the name of balance, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 08:46 AM

Emma,


"Hamas, meanwhile, said it wanted either all the aid or nothing."

That was Hamas' position, and you sought to hide that fact.

Your statement, "I pointed out that in fact Hamas had declared it would accept the aid in its entirety " conceals that fact that they would ONLY accept it in its entirety, and is deception.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 12:31 PM

Keith - you have totally sabotaged a thread concerning the plight of the civilian population of Gaza - congratulations and goodbye! - I really have no further interest in playing your diversionary 'games'

I have conducted no 'deceit' I'm prepared to let my posts speak for themselves
- I have never expressed any view contrary to my stance that there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza and that neither the extent of it nor the opposition within Israel itself and the global Jewish diaspora is being allowed to reach many in the Western world due to the degree control exercised over the media and the extensive and well funded propaganda machine of the Israeli government.

Maybe you should make your elected role of acting as the mouthpiece of that machine by employing similar tactics clear too.


The use of 'edited' and misleading videos (like the completely discredited audio tape claimed to be from the Mavi Marmara) is nothing new to the Israeli authorities

Back in Jan 2009 the BBC was reporting
"The Israeli propaganda effort is being directed to achieve two main aims.

The first is to justify the air attacks.
The second is to show that there is no humanitarian calamity in Gaza.

Both these aims are intended to place Israel in a strong position internationally and to enable its diplomacy to act as an umbrella to fend off calls for a ceasefire while the military operation unfolds.

Israel has pursued the first aim by being very active in getting its story across that Hamas is to blame. The sight of Hamas rockets streaking into Israel has been helpful in this respect.

It has also allowed trucks in with food aid and has stressed that it will not let people starve, even if they go short.

One of its spokespeople, who has regularly appeared on the international media, Major Avital Leibovich said: "Quite a few outlets are very favourable to Israel."

Paul Reynolds, World affairs correspondent for the BBC News website commenting on a video that is not all it is claimed to be
Who is practising 'deceit' here Keith?

as Reynolds added

Update: "several readers have e-mailed to ask whether I believe Hamas. One said I had "bought into" Hamas propaganda. Another that I should have dealt with Hamas' claims: "What's missing speaks volumes about your one-sidedness."

I do not believe anyone's "propaganda."
We seek to verify all claims, from whatever source.
One of the main claims in Gaza at the moment is the serious situation for the population.
Having reported from Gaza many times over the years, I know how crowded parts of it are and how dependent the people are on food aid from the UN. This means they have no other source of supply but equally, if the system is working, they should be getting enough to get by on. The problem is that foreign correspondents cannot get in to establish the exact situation for themselves.

Further update:

"I have had several hundred e-mails about this article. They are more or less evenly balanced between those who criticise it and those who praise it.

I would stress that I looked only at the Israeli side because of the new factor -
ISRAEL SETTING UP A SPECIAL UNIT TO IMPROVE THE PROJECTION OF ITS ARGUMENTS AROUND THE WORLD"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7809371.stm

"When events and reality break through, contradicting the Israeli-established narrative, creating stories that run counter to the imposed story line, the propaganda machine works overtime to deny, deny, deny (saying quite boldly, "Who do you believe, me or your lying eyes?"),
and/or concoct a counter-narrative that shifts the blame."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:14 PM

Emma, I understood this thread to be about the aid flotilla, and the events surrounding it.

There were few people prepared to take a balanced view.
The debate was very partisan.
You are a deeply committed person. Nothing wrong with that but you should be prepared to at least consider the views of others, and to make your own case without trying to hide relevant facts.
You lose credibility when you are exposed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 03:05 PM

Emma;
Please don't let this eejit drive you from this thread - he really isn't the sharpest knife in the box and the subject in hand deserves far more than he can possibly bring to it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 04:37 AM

I agree with Jim on this.
Emma, this old eejit has learned a lot about the Gazan situation from your informed and well researched posts.
The thread would be poorer without your contribution.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 07:00 AM

"Toothless in Gaza?"

Commenting on the setting up of an internal enquiry into the attack on the aid flotilla Paul Wood, the BBC Newscorrespondent in Jerusalem wrote

"An experienced politician like Benjamin Netanyahu knows that getting the outcome you want from a public inquiry is all about the right terms of reference and who you appoint to sit on the inquiry.

So, the commissions' remit does not include looking at the process of government decision making which led to Israeli commando raid. It will instead focus on questions of international law.

And the two foreign observers who have been appointed are seen as friends of Israel.

Turkey - and others critical of Israel - want a fully independent UN commission of inquiry. This demand has now been deflected with the appointment of credible (but not unfriendly) international figures as non-voting observers."

(In fact Mr Trimble is one of the prominent co-founders of the pro-Israel, Paris-based advocacy group "Friends of Israel")

Even the Israeli newspaper Haaretz had reservations about the enquiry

"The government's efforts to avoid a thorough and credible investigation of the flotilla affair seem more and more like a farce.

The conclusions of an ostensible probe are intended to justify retroactively the decision to blockade Gaza, to forcibly stop the Turkish aid flotilla in international waters and to use deadly force on the deck of the Mavi Marmara.

To make the costume seem credible, the Prime Minister's Bureau asked a retired Supreme Court justice, Yaakov Tirkel, to chair the committee. Alongside him will sit foreign observers in order to legitimize the conclusions in international public opinion"


The panel consists of Shabtai Rosen, a 93-year-old British-born professor and former diplomat, and Amos Horev, an 86-year-old retired army major general and a former president of an Israeli university at 75, Yaakov Tirkel is the youngest.

HOWEVER - as Paul Wood again reports on BBC News, Jerusalem 30 June

"People don't like being made fun of and old people are more sensitive to this than others - so said one Israeli newspaper explaining why, in its view, the Tirkel commission had turned on the Israeli government and demanded new powers.
Certainly there was a lot of criticism in the Israeli press at the commission:
It was too old. The average age was 84.
It was toothless.
It was a mere fig leaf for the Israeli government, a commission intended solely for foreign export."

It is reported by Israeli media that Mr Tirkel has demanded that the panel be recognised as a state commission of inquiry with the power to subpoena witnesses and recommend sanctions and would resign if this was not met

Although 'sources close to the inquiry' have denied the reports, the prime minister issued a statement on Tuesday saying the cabinet was ready to grant the commission's request to allow it to subpoena witnesses and have them testify under oath.

Nevertheless,
it specified that the extended mandate would not allow the panel to question any of the commandos involved in the flotilla raid, citing security considerations and will rely instead on summaries of the army's internal investigation

The scope of the investigation is still limited to examining the conformity of the naval blockade with the rules of international law; the conformity of the actions during the raid to principles of international law; and the actions taken by those who organized and participated in the flotilla, and their identities

It does as Haaretz criticizes (13.06.10)

'not intend to probe the decision-making process that preceded the takeover of the ship and the shortcomings that were uncovered.

Netanyahu's panel will have no powers, not even those of a government probe, and its proposed chairman does not believe in such a panel. In an interview to Army Radio, Tirkel said there is no choice but to establish a state committee of inquiry. He opposed bringing in foreign observers and made clear that he is not a devotee of drawing conclusions about individuals and dismissing those responsible for failures.
When a Haaretz reporter confronted Tirkel about these remarks, the former justice evaded the question saying, "I don't remember what I said." '

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 10 - 08:53 AM

Examples of the two faces of Israel are reported in this morning's press.
Israeli officials appear to have conceded that the blockade MIGHT be lifted - amazing what an 'own goal' can achieve!!!
On the other hand - a Palastinian family having a meal outside their home were struck by Israeli shells, seriously injuring the mother.
Israeli troops refused to allow medical assistance through to her and she died.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:42 AM

What is the Israeli side of this tragic story Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:47 AM

'Israel's answer to flotillas - helping Gaza's children'

Regional Cooperation Ministry, EU to allocate about $750,000 towards 'Save a Child's Heart' project, which helps fund surgery for Palestinian children, as well as kids from developing nations. Mother of Kurdish child: We didn't keep our trip to Israel a secret

Some 250 children suffering from severe and life-threatening heart defects will be given the opportunity to undergo surgery thanks to the "Save a Child's Heart" project at the Edith Wolfson Medical Center in Holon.

The association, which was founded 15 years ago, has helped fund surgeries for more than 2,400 children - about half of them from the Palestinian Authority and Gaza and the rest from some 40 developing nations, including Iraq, Morocco, Angola and Romania.

The EU is expected to issue a 400,000 euro ($496,000) grant towards the project, while Minister for Regional Cooperation Silvan Shalom announced his office would allocate NIS 1 million (about $260,000) to the program, enough to perform an additional 250 surgeries a year.

"At a time when the world is debating Israel's actions in Gaza, our answer to the next flotilla is this project and saving children from Gaza," Minister Shalom said during a ceremony held at the hospital Sunday. "We are not engaged in a conflict with the Palestinian people, but with the Palestinian Authority and Hamas."

Funds transferred by the EU will be used to train Palestinian physicians, to operate on Palestinian children with heart problems and to support joint Israeli-Palestinian community activity.

European Union Ambassador to Israel Andrew Standley said during the ceremony at Wolfson that the project proves that Israel and the Palestinians can cooperate.

One of those who underwent surgery at the hospital is nine-year-old Kurdish boy Aram, who made his way to Israel along with his mother Shawana from Iraq, via Jordan. "His condition has improved. Before the operation he had trouble breathing. Now he is breathing better," said the mother.

"I am glad he had the operation and I was not afraid to come to Israel. Everyone knew that we were travelling to Israel. We did not keep it a secret," she added.

According to a price list published by the Health Ministry, open heart surgery costs NIS 67,000 ($18,000), but the cost of an operation for children who are part of the project is only NIS 27,000 ($7,000).

Wolfson Medical Center Director Dr. Yitzhak Berlovitz said, "We are proud of this project, and hope other hospitals will take an active role in it."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3908597,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 10:51 AM

No doubt Israel will put itself on trial (if forced to do so by outside pressure or bad publicity) and find itself 'not guilty' - as it always has.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 01:50 PM

""One of those who underwent surgery at the hospital is nine-year-old Kurdish boy Aram, who made his way to Israel along with his mother Shawana from Iraq, via Jordan. "His condition has improved. Before the operation he had trouble breathing. Now he is breathing better," said the mother.

"I am glad he had the operation and I was not afraid to come to Israel. Everyone knew that we were travelling to Israel. We did not keep it a secret," she added.

According to a price list published by the Health Ministry, open heart surgery costs NIS 67,000 ($18,000), but the cost of an operation for children who are part of the project is only NIS 27,000 ($7,000).

Wolfson Medical Center Director Dr. Yitzhak Berlovitz said, "We are proud of this project, and hope other hospitals will take an active role in it."

Seems he had to take the pretty way to Israel, rather than risk being taken for a rather small terrorist and being shot on the Gaza/Israel border. And of course he can now go back and suffer slow starvation at the hands of the same nation which provided the medical help.

And one is supposed to cancel out the other?......I don't think so!

Maybe if Israel had not destroyed the Gaza infrastructure, he could have had treatment at home.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 02:55 PM

"And of course he can now go back and suffer slow starvation at the hands of the same nation which provided the medical help."
Don: what on earth are you talking about? In what way is Israel starving the Kurds? I have just dipped in to this thread after missing a thousand or so posts, and find as usual people are hammering Israel. But this is the first time I've heard them accused of starving Iraqi Kurdistan. In fact, I should have thought it was quite well known that Kurdistan has had a lot of help from Israel against the Arabs in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 03:04 PM

"....usual people are hammering Israel."
Not another "Let's hide behind the Holocaust to excuse the behaviour of Israel" - surely!
Israel has done a good enough job in disgracing the Jewish people without anybody having to "hammer Israel".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 03:08 PM

Yes, things pretty much as usual I see. But I asked what Israel have been doing in the way of starving Kurds recently. Simple question, a simple answer required.Not a load of stuff about the Holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 04:40 PM

"But I asked what Israel have been doing in the way of starving Kurds recently."
No idea - I just know what they are doing by way of murdering civilians
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:07 PM

Jim, if you only tell one side of the story, you are just another propagandist.
Not worth reading.
Your Irish Times did give the Israeli version, albeit very briefly and curtly, but you chose not to include any of it in your post.
Dishonest really.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:31 PM

"Your Irish Times did give the Israeli version, albeit very briefly and curtly, but you chose not to include any of it in your post.
Dishonest really."

Failure to respond to your post doesn't equate to "dishonesty", it means (from what I gathered on another thread) that Jim has for his own reasons, decided not to engage with further debate with YOU. Jim briefly mentioned a piece of current news. That's all. Nothing dishonest in doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:03 PM

Thank you C.S. - decided to stop talking to eejits and nausing up threads by monopolising them - would that......!
For the record; I didn't mention The Irish Times, nor did I read it there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:52 AM

Crow Sister,
Jims reopened the thread with this and one other story.
This story is not relevant to the subject of the thread and is a one sided post on a highly contentious issue.
What we usually call trolling.

If you want to be more than just a propagandist, I think you should aim for some balance.
Jim says he got the story from the morning press. All the papers I saw gave both sides.
Jim often quotes from "his" Irish Times and that paper did.

If he is being honest about the paper he read, he might still have guessed that there was more to it.
If the Israelis planned to murder this poor woman, they could have used a more discreet method than an artillery barrage.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 02:14 AM

"trolling -"
I suppose that passing on information that the the same people who murdered aid-suppliers have recently shelled a Palestinian family eating a meal outside their home, then prevented medical assistance from getting through and instead, stood and watched while a member of that family died because of their "let's go and slaughter some civilians today" policy, - might be considered trolling if you are in favour of that sort of thing.
I hadn't realised that quoting news sources had now become mandatory - surely, if Keith can look it up for himself, anyone can (unlike him, most people can stretch to more a couple of paragraphs at a time). Maybe I should just cut-n-paste in future - seems to be the going thing nowadays.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM

"Maybe I should just cut-n-paste in future - seems to be the going thing nowadays."

What do you suppose he meant?
Let me tell you.
A few days ago I posted my thoughts on what led to Bloody Sunday.
Jim replied that he easily found a web piece that I had cut and pasted almost verbatim from.
This was a lie.
They were my own thoughts.
A blatant and flagrant lie told for the basest of reasons; to undermine and discredit the opinion of someone whe dared to disagree with Jim.
He refused to withdraw or even acknowledge the lie, and now he compounds the crime by taunting me with it.
Beneath contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 06:46 AM

Keith A, as someone who follows this thread, I understand Jims decision to try to avoid engaging in disagreement with you. It's getting too personal.

If you're genuinely concerned about people hearing the "Israeli side" rather than wasting time with personal squabbling, why don't you simply post the "Israeli side" in response to Jim's post? I'm sure I'd rather read that!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:23 AM

For the same reason Crow Sister.
He posts one side, I post the other, and off we'd go again.
Instead I made a respectful plea for balance in our posting on this and other divisive issues.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:35 AM

Let's do it for Keith shall we?
I could have posted as a follow-up to the reports about the sadistic act of allowing a wounded woman to die for want of medical attention, the claim by the Israelis that they were engaged in exchange fire with Palasinian militants.
I then would have had to add that the family concerned denied that there had been any such exchange other than that of the Israelis which had hit their home and killed their mother. They also pointed out that it would have been insanity on their part to be dining al-fresco in the middle of a battle.
There - is that your argument Keith, or is there more?
As far as I am concerned, the point of all this is the inhuman behaviour by the Israelis in allowing a woman to die by actively preventing a medical team, from reaching her - behaviour that we have come to expect from Israel.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM

Thanks Jim.
The Israeli's have yet to comment on delaying the Red Crescent.
I always remind myself that both sides lie, but I doubt the artillery opened up on a whim.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:50 AM

GAZA CITY (AFP) – The Israeli army fired at least one shell into the Al-Bureij neighbourhood in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip on Tuesday, killing a woman and wounding five people, Palestinian medics said.

Medics said the woman was killed when the shell hit her house. Five others were wounded were taken to a nearby hospital.

An Israeli military spokeswoman confirmed the incident, saying that "suspects were identified coming close to the (border) fence and a force nearby opened fire."

She had no further details, but the Ynet website reported that Israeli forces had targeted a group of militants trying to fire mortars into Israel.

Israel launched a devastating assault on the Palestinian enclave in December 2008 aimed at halting rocket fire from the besieged coastal Strip.

Some 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed in the 22-day war.

After a year of quiet following the assault, Gaza militants have stepped up the cross-border rocket fire, with more than 60 rockets and mortar rounds striking Israel since January, the military says.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100713/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazashell

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 08:03 AM

""Don: what on earth are you talking about? In what way is Israel starving the Kurds?""

If you take the trouble to read the post I referred to, you will become dimly aware that ia refers specifically to Palestinian children, so the inference drawn, that a trip round via Jordan and Iraq from Gaza, seems reasonable from the facts presented.

I stand subject to correction if this is not so, always provided you have evidence in support.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 08:24 AM

The original news report said that the medical authorities have demanded to know why they were not allowed in to assist.
"I doubt the artillery opened up on a whim. "
Why on earth should yo think this? It was a constant tactic in last years incursion into Gaza - accompanied by tanks, and using heavy weapons and backed up with phosphorus bombs.
On that occasion they were filmed doing so - and it was shown on BBC television - doubt not!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 11:47 AM

Amazing how quiet everyone was years back when Hamas used an ambulance to bring a terrorist attack team into a border crossing (killing a number of both Israelis and Palestinian civilians) in Gaza ( since time, Israel does not allow ambulances to cross that border, since Hamas has shown itself in violation to the internatioanal laws of war in regards to using Red Cross/Red Crescent marked vehicles for combat purposes.

But don't take that into account, since it condemns the Palestinians and not the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 11:54 AM

Re Don(Wyziwyg)T's post: your cut'n'paste story referred to a Kurdish boy from northern Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 12:47 PM

"Amazing how quiet everyone was years back"
If everyone was so quiet how come we all knew about it and said our piece on it at the time.
There is a 'slight' difference between a tactic (no matter how unsavoury) carried out by guerilla fighters and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians being carried out by the Israelis, which you appear to be fully in support of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:08 PM

Ethnic cleansing?
I thought the population was rapidly increasing.
Less emotive hyperbole and more balance would lead to more reasoned discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM

The systematic killing of Palestinian civilians is ethnic cleansing in my book - what do you call it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:36 PM

Self-defence - no doubt!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:44 PM

Jim,

"which you appear to be fully in support of."

The number of Palestinian civilians being killed ( over the period after Israel left Gaza) is far greater BY Hamas than by the Israeli forces reacting to attacks on Israel. So, please condemn THAT ethnic clensing, or admit you havce no problemn with dead Palestinians, unless they are killed by Israelis.

You seem to think that it is ok to kill Israelis, and that when a goverment ( as you claim Hamas is) attacks another country they should be immune from attacks in return. The Hamas CHARTER declares that Israel does not have the right to exist- Israel has declared that the Palestinians can exist in peace as long as they do not attack Israel.

UNTIL there is a peace treaty, there exists a state of war between Israel and those parties that attacked in 1948. Since Egypt ( which controls the other borders to Gaza, and you seem to ignore) and Jordan have signed such a peace treaty, they are at peace. Whe the Palestinians love their children more than they hate Jews, there might be peace in the region- Until then, Israel will continue to defend itself and try to prevent larger conflict by reducing the weapons available to thier enemies.

I see that Hamas has no problem smuggling in rockets: One might think they could bring that volume of food or medicine in, but they choose rockets instead- Ever ask them WHY???

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:56 PM

Reason is incompatible with bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 02:20 PM

"After a year of quiet following the assault, Gaza militants have stepped up the cross-border rocket fire, with more than 60 rockets and mortar rounds striking Israel since January, the military says."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 02:39 PM

Israel is a nuclear power.
Whatever the Palestinians can do against is in retaliation to the annexing of their land, the ghettoisation of their people, the control of essential goods, the regular military incursions into their territory, the destruction of their houses, the systematic killing of their people - including the use of chemical weapons on built-up areas, hospitals, schools, nurserys..... and all the other atrocities committed in the name of 'The Promised Land' ranks a little insignificant against wishing that 'Israel has no right to exist'.
In those circumstances, I'm afraid I might wish for the same thing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:07 PM

Jim,

The Hamas declaration predates the Israeli posseion of nuclear power- you are again wrong.

Israel HAD nuclear weapons in it's last several wars- and did not use them. Thus, your comments about systematic killing should be reserved to the Palestians who did so to those Jews in the West Bank, and other Arab nations after 1948- killed or drove them out- THAT was ethnic clensing- there were far more Arab Israelis LEFT in Israel that all the Jews in all the Arab nations. The refugees from 1948 were approx 640,000 Arabs who fled Israel ( a minority of the Arab population, and 820,000 Jews who were driven from Arab nations- the vast majority of the Jewish population. Israel settledm0ost ( over 500,000) of hose Jews- HOW MANY ARAB NATIONS SETTLED ANY PALESTINANS???

I grew up ( pre 1967) across the street from a Palestinian family from the CHRISTIAN town of Ramallah- tell me baout how THEY were allowed back between 1948 and 1967, when it was under Arab control- and the Jewish population was ethnically cleansed ( OK when you conquer Jews, I guess you would say)

Going back to 1923, the British split off 77% of the Mandate Palestine for an Arab Homeland- and did not allow any Jews to settle there- So the remaining 23% of the Jewish homeland is NOT allowed to remain a Jewish (majority ) state??? You want to give back the Jewish homeland as created by the treaty that ended WW I, and established Lebenon, Iraq, Turkey et al???

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:06 PM

Jim,

""let's go and slaughter some civilians today""

THAT is a description of the tactics "carried out by guerilla fighters " all the time, over the last 62 years, against the civilian population of Israel- and it was ok when it was Jews being killed.


So you have no room to talk.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 06:14 PM

"The Hamas declaration predates the Israeli posseion of nuclear power- you are again wrong."
So what - the political problems raised by the setting up of the State of Israel were built in by politicians over half a century ago; they were never solved then when they should have been and they have left behind todays conflicts.
What we are discussing here is the fact that since the Six Day War the Israelis have adopted an aggressive expansionist policy backed up by military might. They have continued to annex Palestinian land and have used thuggish military tactics against a Third World people, an impoverished people poorly armed and incapable of effective resistance - making your suggestion of "ethnic cleansing" against the Palastinians utterly ludicrous - insulting even.
I notice that you did not deny my list of war crimes carried out by the Israelis, so you agree that they were carried out and you support them - tell me that is not so or tell me they never happened and what I witnessed earlier this year on a television documentary on the last incursion into Gaza was the figment of somebody's imagination.
Whenever opposition to Israeli behavior is brought up the inevitable squeal of 'anti-Semitism' goes up. Some of the fiercest opponents of present-day Israeli policy I have heard has come from Jews - friends I knew who were the children of holocaust survivers and who introduced me to the history of the Jewish people in the twentieth century - they are now ashamed to call themselves Jewish.
Justify Israeli thuggishness if you can, but don't claim them as victims - they are not; they are very much the perpetrators of horrendous crimes.
When I look at today's Gaza, I can see little difference in what is happening there than what happened in Warsaw and Wilno; when I remeber the Shatila and Sabra refugee camp massacres it remind me what happened at Lidice or a thousand other atrocities carried out by the Nazis.
I never believed I would see a nation of Jewish fascists, but that's what we have in the world today, and they have nuclear capability.
Incidentally - the tactics used by the Palestinians against the Israelis in order to get their homes back are no worse, and in some cases not as extreme as those used by the Jewish resistance in order to set up the State of Israel in the first place. Isn't it funny how terrorism becomes a valid form of self-determination depending on which side you support?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 06:31 PM

"They have continued to annex Palestinian land "

False statement.

"so you agree that they were carried out and you support them "

No. I do not agree that attacks on missle launchers and morters illeagally put into schools and such are war crimes- the placemnent by the Palestinians was A WAR CRIME ( BY UN determination.)

You do not reply to MY questions:



I see that Hamas has no problem smuggling in rockets: One might think they could bring that volume of food or medicine in, but they choose rockets instead- Ever ask them WHY???

HOW MANY ARAB NATIONS SETTLED ANY PALESTINANS???



The refugees from 1948 were approx 640,000 Arabs who fled Israel ( a minority of the Arab population, and 820,000 Jews who were driven from Arab nations- the vast majority of the Jewish population.

Are you disagreeing with this statement????????

So your statement "the tactics used by the Palestinians against the Israelis in order to get their homes back are no worse, and in some cases not as extreme as those used by the Jewish resistance in order to set up the State of Israel in the first place." means that the displaced Jews have the right to treat the Palestinians as the Palestinians are treating Israelis. OR DO YOU DENY THAT ARAB JEWS HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS ARS YOU GIVE MOOSLIM PALESTINIANS ( and deny to Christian ones)?



there were far more Arab Israelis LEFT in Israel that all the Jews in all the Arab nations.

But you seem to think ity ok to kill or drive off Jews. WHY is it that when the Plaestinians kill each other you were so silent? And don't lie and say you protested- I saw nothing here that indicates you care about those lives, since you cannot blame them on Israeli action.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM

There is very little 'driving off of the Jews' with the primative weapons posessed by the Palestinians, and we can argue the rights and wrongs of the political set-up of Israel from here to kingdom come - I am talking about the behaviour of the Israelis towards non-combatants - utterly inhuman.
Even if it was the case that the Palestinians hid mortars (primative sort of opposition to the weaponry of the Israeli army - tanks, planes, sophisticated rocket launchers), how can ytou possibly justify the destruction of those schools and hospitals? the hopitals that were put under fire by the Israelis still had the patents and staff in them - HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THAT? AND HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS SUCH AS PHOSPORUS BOMBS ON A CIVILIAN POPULATION - WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ARE YOU - YOU DISGRACE THE MEMORY OGF THE HOLCAUST DEAD.
You have chosen to defend one aspect of the Israeli atrocdities, defending it on the word of a government that has jackbooted its way across the Middle East and ignoring all the rest.
I deny the right to a homeland to no-one as long as it is their home and not one promised by a 2,000 old myth.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:31 PM

Sorry - forgot to sign that inmy anger for the support fr Israeli fascism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:46 PM

I can't help noting that it is the type of attitude and language on display in many of the posts in this thread that explains the actions that Israel is forced to take in order to ensure it's survival. I am heartened that this thread will live on in perpetuity as testament to this calumny.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 08:02 PM

How can YOU justify the placement of morters and rockets in schools and hospitals, a violation of the Geneva Conventions?

How can YOU justfy placing tires filled with gasoline around political opponamnts, and lighting them on fire?

How can YOU justify the smuggling in of rockets and morters, while complaining that the people are starving and need medicine? You seem to agree that killing Jews is more important than the care of Palestinian children

How can YOU justify the killing of Israeli civilians by random rocket bombardment of civilian areas- a violation of the Geneva Coonvention?

Yet YOU have claimed that the Palestinians are justified in all that because they fled their homes in 1948 instead of living in peace, as MORE Arabs did- and you deny the greater number of Jews driven from their homes the rights you give to the terrorist Palestinans.

Shame on you. Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:58 AM

I justify none of this - they are all acts of war which, as a paciifist, I find inhuman and abhorrent. To me, none of them are any 'better' or 'worse' than acts carried out by the 'freedom fighters' in their struggle for the establishment of the State of Israel.
But none of these exeed the continuing WAR CRIMES committed against the civilian population of Gaza, the destruction of their homes, hospitals, schools, the ghettoisation, the use of tanks and heavy weaponry in built-up areas, the blockade..... Nor do they come anywhere near the the arial bombing and use of chemical weapons on a civilian population, which none of you have referred to. NOTHING JUSTIFIES THAT - YOU DON'T EVEN ATTEMPT TO - which tells me the type of people you are.
I raised the question of the bombardment of a Palestinian home and the refusal to allow medical assistance to a mortally-wounded woman - WHERE IS THE JUSTIFICATION OF THAT?
The shame lies with the Israeli Fascists and with you for supporting them with your political bullshitting doubletalk.
Even the Israelis have realised they have over-stepped the mark and are negotiationg to remove the blockade, having scored a spectacular 'own-goal' with their piratical behaviour towards the aid ships - it is their 'supporters from afar' who, from the safety of great distance, encourage them in their atrocities - BRAVE BOYS YOU ARE!!!
If threads like this stand as monuments for anything it will be as a record of a persecuted people turned persecutor - that is the legacy that Israel has handed to the Jewish People.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 04:14 AM

"that is the legacy that Israel has handed to the Jewish People."

And of course the *real* threat of the rise of anti-Semitism. Indeed, this is one of the things that Jews who oppose Irael's actions, are anxious about: being tarred with the same brush, and inheriting the consequences of the actions of others.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 05:33 AM

"I raised the question of the bombardment of a Palestinian home.."

This could not be justified if true.
Both sides tell different stories, and both sides lie.

It is easy to say you are a pacifist and against it all.
In the real world, Israel has to act against the rocket attacks, and that means military action in a densely populated place.
Many French civillians were killed by the allies in the invasion of France.

How about you saying the rocket attacks are wrong and should stop Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 07:45 AM

True enough and more than likely to happen as often as the Israelis feel the urge.
Whatever Israel has to contend with in the shape of (exremely primative) rocket attacks or whatever; the Palestinians have to contend with 100 times worse - if you think I am making it up compare the casualty figures (and the Israeis don't have to rebuild their homes, schools and hospitals after every 'neighbourly' visit or cope with seige conditions thanks to the blockade, checkpoints and Berlin-type wall).
I am tempted to take up your own technique ofr denbate and ask what France has to do with this debate, but let that pass.
Do I take sides - yes I do, but that has nothing to do with my criticism of Israel's genocidal behaviour.
Do I say the rocket attacks are wrong -I have said what I believe in terms of killing people - do I believe they are any more wrong than what the Israeli's do to the Palestinian population; men, women, children, young, old - they don't discriminate - certainly not - pinpricks compared to chemical weapon attacks, et al.
I'll do a deal with you; I'll say they are wrong if you withdraw your supporyt for Israeli fascism, British massacres in Derry and violence-provoking marchers throughout the six counties - or anywhere else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 08:05 AM

Emotive hyperbole again.
Nothing in recent decades, if ever, can justify the expression, "Israel's genocidal behaviour."

If the rockets are so ineffective, why not stop firing them so Israel will have no pretext for its attacks.
It claims, with justification, that it acts in response to the rockets and mortars.

You say, "I'll do a deal with you; I'll say they are wrong if you withdraw your supporyt for Israeli fascism, British massacres in Derry and violence-provoking marchers throughout the six counties - or anywhere else."

If I have EVER supported Israeli fascism, produce it and I will withdraw it.
I only know of one massacre in whole of NI, and I did denounce the 4 soldiers responsible.
I can not help you with the other thing. If the march is harmless decent people would not be "provoked" to attempt murder of policewomen etc.
But if the march is not harmless, I am with you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 09:43 AM

If you think the rocket attacks are wrong and should stop, why can't you say it?
If you do not think they are wrong and should stop, why can't you say that?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 09:59 AM

"Emotive hyperbole again."
Explain the part played by Israel in the Shatila and Sabra Refugee Camp massacres, the military incursions into Gaza, including chemical weapon attacks, the forcible seziure and occupation of Palastinian land, including the plan to demolish 14 Palastinian homes to make way for a tourist centre, and today's announcement that it is considering changing the law to allow the seizure of property vacated by Palestinians they have driven out.
All as near as it gets to genocide for me, but will be glad to replace the term with ethnic cleansing if it helps.
"If the rockets are so ineffective..."
"Every little helps" - as the man from Tesco tells us.
"If I have EVER supported Israeli fascism..."
When haven't you supported Israeli Fascism - a quick perusal of this thread will help refresh your memory.
"and I did denounce the 4 soldiers responsible."
Whatever happened to "The buck stops here" or are you happy to absolve the army and the Government of all blame. If so, why haven't the four rogue soldiers been imprisoned for their crimes against humanity?
"I can not help you with the other thing. "
Still with the Billy/Bully-boys then
I take that a refusal of my invitation - sorry, no deal in that case.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 10:16 AM

It is easy to say, "When haven't you supported Israeli Fascism "
Give a single example from this or any thread and I promise to withdraw.

White phosphorous is nasty stuff, and is used to make smoke, but not really a chemical weapon.
Not a genocidal weapon like poison gas.
If Israelis are guilty of genocide in Gaza, what about Hamas who have killed more Gazans?

We really can not discuss NI here, but briefly, they acted without orders and Saville DID absolve army and government.

Now, are the rocket attacks wrong?
Should they stop?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 10:21 AM

"but not really a chemical weapon."
Oh dear - you really are scraping the barrel now - youare in good company - enjoy your rally and don't exclude the Irish from your hatefest.
You obviously have more time to waste on this than I have. by-ee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 11:46 AM

Does your army have it ready for use Jim?
Most armies do, even the ones that eschew chemical weapons.
Now, do you think the rocket attacks are wrong?
Should they stop?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 12:09 PM

"SSDD"
Guest 999 - please explain or I won't sleep tonight.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM

Why so coy about the rockets Jim?

I do not condone Israel's use of WP where it endangered civillians.
I deplored it.
You gave it as an example of genocide.
How can it be, since no one died?

Now, do you think the rocket attacks are wrong Jim?
Should they stop?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 01:20 PM

I think 999 is saying, that although it is another day, the debate has not changed much.
He does have a point.
Why did you reopen this old thread Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 02:54 PM

Because Israel has committed yet another atrocity Keith - it matters to me; obviously it doesn't to you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 02:58 PM

I would have opened it anyway to pass on the information that they are now considering changing the law to enable them to seize the property vacated by the Palestinians they have driven out - making it clear that this whole sordid affair is about their acquiring Palestinian land and nothing else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:43 PM

"Why did you reopen this old thread Jim?"

It's not an "old" thread Keith, some of us are still following it.

I'm open minded (I hope). I'm not a major contributor, I dip in and out. But, I'm one of those for whom these discussions are actually genuinely useful and meaningful, because I learn from them, rather than gaining debating points from them.

Before I came to this discussion I didn't know what I thought about Isreal. I didn't event think about Isreal, bar having a few English Jewish friends who seemed quite anti whatever it was their culture was traditionaly about.

Let me tell you, I feel very differently now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 06:21 PM

It was an old thread in that it lapsed for 2 weeks.
The new discussion is not even relevant to the title.
Since you reopened it Jim, you have failed to respond to some perfectly reasonable questions from me.
I answer all of yours next post.

1. How can ethnic cleansing result in a rapid increase in numbers?

2. Give one example of me supporting Israeli fascism.

3. If Israelis are guilty of genocide in Gaza, what of Hamas who have killed more Gazans?

4. How was the use of WP genocidal when no one died?

5. Is it wrong to fire rockets at Israeli towns?

6. Should they stop?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 08:54 PM

"Re Don(Wyziwyg)T's post: your cut'n'paste story referred to a Kurdish boy from northern Iraq.""

I cut 'n paste precisely nothing!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 09:04 PM

""You seem to think that it is ok to kill Israelis, and that when a goverment ( as you claim Hamas is) attacks another country they should be immune from attacks in return. The Hamas CHARTER declares that Israel does not have the right to exist- Israel has declared that the Palestinians can exist in peace as long as they do not attack Israel.""

Perhaps you would confirm for us, BB, just which country has a totally destroyed infrastructure, is being blockaded so that it cannot rebuild, or feed its population, and is subjected daily to military force on a scale which it has not the slightest chance of combatting, and which country has a few craters in unoccupied cow pastures, and less than twenty civilians killed by unaimed rockets over eight years?

If, as you say, Hamas is dedicated to the total destruction of Israel, they are not doing too well, are they.

You seem to have no conception of what constitutes reasonable force, so maybe you should move to Israel. You would fit right in.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 09:20 PM

""Incidentally - the tactics used by the Palestinians against the Israelis in order to get their homes back are no worse, and in some cases not as extreme as those used by the Jewish resistance in order to set up the State of Israel in the first place. Isn't it funny how terrorism becomes a valid form of self-determination depending on which side you support?""

Remember the Stern Gang and the Irgun Zwei Leumi, who numbered ex president Menachim Begin among their activists, when they poured petrol over tents full of British soldiers, and set light to them, back in 1948.

Beats the hell out of a few unguided rockets, doesn't it.

Israel's whole history is one of bloodshed and violence, and their responses to opposition are invariably way over the top. They won't stop until all of Gaza is settled by Israelis, and they won't care who, or how many, they have to kill to achieve that.

Anybody care to make a bet on which side will wipe out the other?

NO! because there's no decent odds to be had. Hamas can talk, but it's Israel which is the aggressor.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:10 AM

Don, your questions were not for me, but are so obvious I will deal with them.

You said you cut and paste "precisely nothing."
Yes you did. 18thJuly 1.50pm, about an Iraqui Kurdish boy who went to Israel for medical help.
You added "And of course he can now go back and suffer slow starvation at the hands of the same nation which provided the medical help" implying that Israel is guilty of starving Kurds!!!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:15 AM

Don, you asked which country had the destroyed infrastructure etc.
That would be Gaza, as the result of the Isaeli operation to counter the rocket attacks.
You can say that the force was disproportionate, and I might agree, but it still failed to stop the rockets.
The infrastructure is quite adequate for manufacturing and launching rockets against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:21 AM

Don, you said "They won't stop until all of Gaza is settled by Israelis,"

It was settled by Israelis.
The Israeli army forced the settlers out at gunpoint and Israel withdrew from Gaza.
But for the rockets, that would have been that.
Because of the rockets, after trying and failing to stop them with more limited operations, finally, after years of provocation by lethal rocket attacks, they launched the operation we all deplore.
But for the rockets it would not have happened, would it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:23 AM

Any chance of some answers to my questions?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM

Keith,
All your questions have been answered many times by many people - the fact that you either have failed to understand the answers or do not wish to is your problem.
Bombing civilians, chemical weapons, destroying hospitals, demolishing homes, two major massacres, annexation of territory, the use of heavy weaponry, tanks and planes against a civilian population in built-up areas, the attempred starving out of a whole population, the building of a wall to create ghettos, the current proposal to take over land vacated by people who have been driven out by the above actions - these are your examples of fascism - respond to them.
You are not listening and you are not responding to anything that has been said; that is why I will no longer respond to your inanities - it is a waste of time and it nauses up threads.
And please do not accuse anybody of cut-n-paste.... not you!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 03:53 AM

To finish:
Please do not further insult us by suggesting that your questions have not been answered.
Your behaviour on at least on three threads has been uncannily like that of a child being taught its times table and simply does not want to know.
If you have questions you wish to be answered, please try addressing some that have been directed at you - and no - don't ask for them to be repeated; seek them out for yourself for a change. It is your prerogative not to accept the answers, but it is neither honest nor fair to the other contributors to claim that they have not been given.
Please do not continue to obstruct threads with your apparent desire to be noticed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 04:42 AM

Jim, cut and paste was not an accusation.
It is a tool we all use to put information to the forum.
Don just forgot doing it.

I really am not aware of avoiding any questions.
If you have one in mind, I promise to address it.

I am not claiming great knowledge of all this.
I came in because people seemed to be unquestioningly accepting highly dubious claims from one side and rejecting out of hand very plausible claims from the other.
When it came, the video evidence vindicated that impression.

I would discuss any of the list of issues you have just produced, but one at a time please.

I would ask you to refrain from hysterical, wildly exagerated claims.
1. Starvation. No one is starving in Gaza.
2. Ethnic Cleansing. No ethnic group is disappearing from any area, except Christians from some Palestinian areas.
3. Genocide. Can you find any responsible body claiming that?
By its charter, UN MUST intervene militarily wherever it is happening.
It is not happening in Gaza.
4. Chemical weapons. Does your army not use WP smoke? Most do. It is not classed as a chemical weapon (except by you obviously).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 05:14 AM

Keith,
My cut-n-paste accusation was based onthe fact that:
1 It seemed familiar to something I had read elsewhere
2 It was trite and preachy as if it had been lifted out of a political manifesto
3 It bore a very close resemblence to an article on the net on Bernadet Devlin - complete with Civil Rights references.
The article in question came up almost immediately in response to my googling some of your text straight in. I did not put it up to humiliate you but because you presented it as 'original thought' which I believe it was not.
As for the rest of your 'arguments' all your points have been answered elsewhere ad-nauseum,
Others can decide whether they wish to continue this one-player tennis match but as far as I'm concerned you can take your war of attrition elsewhere - I'm gone from this farce (not to say I won't participate in response to others, just that I refuse to make any thread a back-and-forth with someone who brings no knowledge or even evidence of interest to the subjects he seeks to dominate).
You manage to make the most interesting subjects boooooooring
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 05:28 AM

You said you had "easily found" a piece I had copied "almost verbatim"
That is a lie.
I am so touched that you refrained from revealing it to spare me humiliation!

Do it Jim.
Post and be damned.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:43 AM

Maybe this was an Iraqi Kurdish boy, though that is not quite what was said.

However, that is nit-picking on a pretty mean level. The article also said that about half of those treated were Palestinian, and my comment still stands.

It doesn't compensate for the killings and destruction, the deliberately produced malnutrition, or the refusal to allow supplies of basics to be shipped in.

There were no war supplies on any of those ships, and the silly, and largely ineffective rockets, are presumably homemade.

You can nit-pick to your hearts content, but it won't alter the fact that you support terror tactics by one modern, well equipped, military regime, against a bunch of primitive third world farmers.

Nor will it change the fact that Israel is the local playground bully, and the most likely cause of an eventual major conflagration which may destroy the whole of the Middle East.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:49 AM

BTW Keith. I never have, and never will, cut'n paste articles by other sources such as the media.

The only cut'n past I do, is to sample the post I am answering, and by that, to let the poster know to what I refer.

Just about all Catters do that, and it helps the discussion.

Apart from that, all that you see from me is my own words, thoughts, and opinions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:55 AM

As I said Don, we all use cut and paste to put information to the forum.
Nothing wrong with that.

Those "ineffective" rockets do kill, maim and terrorise people Don, and they are indiscriminate.
If only they would stop, things would be very much better.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:25 AM

""1. Starvation. No one is starving in Gaza.
2. Ethnic Cleansing. No ethnic group is disappearing from any area, except Christians from some Palestinian areas.
3. Genocide. Can you find any responsible body claiming that?
By its charter, UN MUST intervene militarily wherever it is happening.
It is not happening in Gaza.
4. Chemical weapons. Does your army not use WP smoke? Most do. It is not classed as a chemical weapon (except by you obviously). ""

1. FACT! A large percentage of the Gaza population are not getting enough food, and are suffering from malnutrition. This is the first stage of starvation, and it will get worse as long as the Israelis are banning the import of items like butter, in case they should be used to make bombs. In light of this your comment is specious.

2. FACT! Israel plans to populate land which has been cleared of Palestinians, with Israelis. Israel also still occupies and claims ownership of land acquired by military force, having substituted the original dwellers with Isralis. By any definition this is de facto ethnic cleansing, and they are vey good at it.

3. FACT! Israel, in reponse to even the most minor incidents, carries out massive punitive expeditions into Gaza, killing civilians, (men, women, and children) indiscriminately, and in hundreds, or even thousands. They have bombed Gaza to rubble, destroying hospitals, and schools, and even United Nations buildings and staff. I have a really hard time seeing this as anything other than incipient genocide.

They claim that Palestinians were using hospitals and schools as shelter for weapons and terrorists, but whose word do we have for the truth of that? .......ISRAEL'S Oh,that's all right then, after all they wouldn't lie......would they?

4. FACT! Willie Pete (White Phosphorus) is not considered to be an illegal chemical weapon when used as a smoke screen, on an open battlefield. Its use, however, in confined spaces as an anti personnel weapon, against defenceless human beings, is a horrendous crime against humanity. If you support that use, then you are quite simply inhuman.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:30 AM

""Those "ineffective" rockets do kill, maim and terrorise people Don, and they are indiscriminate.
If only they would stop, things would be very much better.""

If England were occupied and under seige, you would be the first to start lobbing bombs at the intruder, yet you decry the people of another land feeling the same.

If Israel got the fuck out of land it doesn't have any right to, perhaps the rockets would stop.

But we'll never know, because Israel is merciless, implacable, and greedy for expansion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM

"Post and be damned."
And drive this thread into yet another "you said, I said, the writer said" blind alley - don't think so really. If you really can't remember where you got your 'original thoughts', do what I did and google them again.
You accused Don of cut-and-paste - he denied it - you don't feel the need to justify your accusations or withdraw them, neither do I.

"Those "ineffective" rockets do kill, maim and terrorise".
So do the chemical weapons, the tanks, the bombings, the destruction of hospitals, schools and homes, the killing of civilians, the blockade, the checkpoints, the wall - which you have neither acknowledged nor denied, so therefore, you find acceptable.
Do you think this all or any of this is a good or bad thing?
Compare like with like in this somewhat David and Goliath situation and you have a true picture.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:47 AM

It did get out of Gaza, the rockets continued.

Malnutrition is a bad thing found in many countries including developed ones.
No one is starving in Gaza. Why exagerate when the truth is bad enough.
It weakens your case.

Whatever plans you are talking about, there is no ethnic cleansing going on.
The issues over land are bad enough. Exagerating and using emotive expressions that do not describe the actual situation weakens your case.

You may have a hard time not seeing "incipient genocide" whatever that is, but genocide has a clear definition and is not happening in Gaza. What is happening is bad enough. Why exagerate wildly?

Israel did not use WP in confined spaces. It was delivered by artillery and aircraft to create smoke.
The use close to civillians was reckless and deplorable, but it was not a chemical weapons attack.
Why exagerate when the truth is bad enough?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:53 AM

I did not accuse Don of cut and paste, I just reminded him that he used it and used it openly and correctly as we all do.

The other matter is not about "you said, I said, the writer said"
It is about you saying you found something I claimed as original on the web.
You lied to discredit me.
No such piece existed.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 08:24 AM

I suggest that we both agree not to bicker.
Just put the two pieces side by side so anyone can see which of us is lying.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:16 AM

"Remember the Stern Gang and the Irgun Zwei Leumi, who numbered ex president Menachim Begin among their activists, when they poured petrol over tents full of British soldiers, and set light to them, back in 1948.

Beats the hell out of a few unguided rockets, doesn't it.
"

The attacking of MILITARY has always been done in war- too bad the PALESTINIANS can't restrict themselves to military targets- which I have never complained about, except as being a bad path to peace.







"2. FACT! Israel plans to populate land which has been cleared of Palestinians, with Israelis. Israel also still occupies and claims ownership of land acquired by military force, having substituted the original dwellers with Isralis. By any definition this is de facto ethnic cleansing, and they are vey good at it.
"

FACT- the West bank had a large Jewish population prior to 1948, as did a number of Arab nations. Where are those people now, and why do you think THEY were NOT ethnically cleansed? Perhhaps you need to consider that Israel is just RESETTLING tha areas that were previously Jewish. You seem to think it ok for Palestinains to perform ethnic cleansing, re Jews and Christians: I detect more than a slight whiff of bigotry in your posts.





"They claim that Palestinians were using hospitals and schools as shelter for weapons and terrorists, but whose word do we have for the truth of that?"

The UN? Observers? BBC TV reports, showing the school? Claims that the PALESTINAS made? You have NO problem in taking PALESTINIAN statements as true without outside verification- again, a stink appears in your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:24 AM

And still you refuse to acknowledge the inordinate force used against the Palestinian people and the imbalance of fire-power of the Israelis and those opposing them. These are war crimes, plain and simple, and are widely recognised as such.
Do you believe that if the opposition to these war crimes ceased, the Israelis would return seized land, cease incursions into Palestinian territory, stop demolishing hoses, bombing hospitals and schools, remove the blockade, the checkpoints and the wall and maybe start to act more like human beings and less like fascist thugs?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:31 AM

PS
A bit of cut-and-paste on chemical weapons - as used by Saddam Hussain and the Israelis.
"As an incendiary weapon, WP burns fiercely and can set cloth, fuel, ammunition and other combustibles on fire. Since WWII, it has been extensively used as a weapon, capable of causing serious burns or death.[2] White phosphorus is used in bombs, artillery, and mortars, short-range missiles which burst into burning flakes of phosphorus upon impact. White phosphorus is commonly referred to in military jargon as "WP", and the slang term "Willy/Willie Pete/Peter" (dating from World War I) is still commonly used by infantry and artillery servicemen.[citation needed]
WP is also a highly efficient smoke producing agent, burning quickly and causing an instant bank of smoke. As a result, smoke producing WP munitions are very common, particularly as smoke grenades for infantry, loaded in defensive grenade dischargers on tanks and other armored vehicles, or as part of the ammunition allotment for artillery or mortars. These create smokescreens to mask movement from the enemy, or to mask his fire."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:39 AM

Thanks Jim.
It was the smoke producing munitions that were used in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:56 AM

Which is the liar?
Judge for yourself.
My piece.
Most of Ireland wanted out of British rule, but Ulster wanted to stay in and was prepared to fight.
Dublin wanted to force them out, but did not have the might.
Britain wanted to force them out, but the army refused to do it.
Illiberal Jim thinks they should have been forced out.
How Jim?

Politicians can only hope to please most of the people most of the time.
They tinkered with the border so as few people as possible found themselves on the wrong side of the (open) border.
What more could they do?
Some of those who did not get their own way, stamped their feet and started executing people.
It still goes on.

Now, give us the piece you found Jim, and I will say no more.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:13 AM

Read the definition Keith - it doesn't mention two types, it says that WP does both - used on the marsh Arabs by Saddam Hussain and on Palastinian civilians by the Israelis - did you not see the film footage of " short-range missiles which burst into burning flakes of phosphorus upon impact"?
I've said what I have to say regarding cut and paste - as you are fond of saying, what on earth has this to do with " New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid"
As for your saying no more - gi'e us a break Jimmy - chance'd be a fine thing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:31 AM

Incidently - even if there had been two types of phosphorus weapons, with what authority did you claim the Israelis were using the 'smoke-producing' type - aren't we goiung a little overboard in our support for Israeli fascism?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:05 AM

"with what authority did you claim the Israelis were using the 'smoke-producing' type -"

Er, like everyone else I saw it on the news videos.

Your silence on establishing who lied tells us all we need to know.
Everyone now knows something about you, and what you are capable of for the sake of a debating point.
You should be ashamed, but you are not are you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM

From The New York Times January 21, 2009

Amnesty International said it found "indisputable evidence of widespread use of white phosphorus in densely populated residential areas in Gaza City and in the north."
In a statement, it said its investigators "saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still-burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli Army."

Phosphorus rounds are usually used to spread a thick, white smoke to screen military actions and mark specific areas. Military experts say phosphorus is often particularly useful in urban warfare, in part because it creates tall columns of smoke that can obscure upper-story windows.

But human rights groups harshly criticize its use, saying that the horrible burns and the widespread fires that phosphorus causes make it a menace to civilians.....

Part of what makes white phosphorus controversial is that it can be difficult to control how wide the effects are.

When the shells explode in the air, they disperse pieces of felt soaked in phosphorus — larger version of the shells contain more than 100 of them — that can land on people and cause intense burning, according to Chris Cobb-Smith, a British Army veteran

In early January, a week into Israel's war in Gaza, the home of Sabah Abu Halima was hit by an Israeli shell.
Ms. Abu Halima, the matriarch of a farming family in the northern Gaza area of Beit Lahiya, was caught in an inferno that burned her husband and four of their nine children to death.

Dr. Nafez Abu Shaban, head of Shifa's burn unit, said the family's burns, which he and an assisting doctor from Egypt had treated, were of a kind he had never encountered, reaching to the muscle and bone.

"They were deeper and wider than anything I had seen; a bad odor came from the wounds and smoke continued to come out of them for many hours," he said in his office around the corner from Ms. Abu Halima's sickbed.

He added, "We took out a piece of foreign matter that a colleague identified as white phosphorous."

full report

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:28 PM

"You should be ashamed, but you are not are you Jim."
Nope - said all I have to say on the subject and have no intention of clogging up this or any other thread with arguments that have nothing to do with the topic in hand - open a thread.
How about your pointing out which news videos claimed that there were two types of phosphorus and that the Israelis were using the harmless type.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 05:37 PM

I think I can see where Keith's confusion arose -

2009

January 5 The Times reports tell-tale smoke above Gaza. An Israeli military official says: "We categorically deny the use of white phosphorus."

January 8 The Times runs pictures of white phosphorus shells stockpiles. Major Avital Leibovich, a military spokesman, says: "This is what we call a quiet shell - it has no explosives and no white phosphorus. It is not for killing people."

January 12 The Times finds more than 50 phosphorus burns victims in hospital

January 14 Gabi Ashkenazi, Israel Defence Forces Chief of Staff, says: "The IDF acts only in accordance with international law and does not use white phosphorus ."

January 16 UN Relief and Works Agency HQ hit with phosphorus munitions

January 21 Major Leibovich admits use of white phosphorus "according to international law". Major- General Amir Eshel, the army's head of strategic planning, says: "It is the most non-lethal kind of weapon. I don't see any issue with that."

January 23 Israel launches investigation into white phosphorus munitions:
"Some practices could be illegal. The IDF is holding an investigation concerning one specific unit and one incident."

April 22 Israeli military official tells The Times that a "media buzz" led to the order to stop using white phosphorus shells

The results of IDF investigations into alleged violations committed by the military during the operation, in which more than a thousand Palestinians were killed. ……

'An Israeli official said that inquiries "revealed a very small number of incidents in which intelligence or operational errors took place". By and large, the army had "maintained a high professional and moral level".

The incidents included an attack that killed 21 people when forces targeted a home rather than a nearby weapon storage facility.
"These unfortunate incidents are unavoidable and occur in all combat situations, in particular of the type which Hamas forced on the IDF by choosing to fight from within the civilian population," the official said.'

Human Rights Watch said: "We consider the IDF investigations a cover-up for serious violations of international law"

And yes!…
They also accused Hamas of seriously violated the laws of war but then we in the West are not supporting Hamas politically and finacially

"Israel backs down over white phosphorus"
The Times April 23, 2009

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:11 PM

Thanks 999 - couldn't agree more (and went to bed Jamesonised) but thanks for the thought.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM

"like everyone else I saw it on the news videos."

I saw the VERY distinctive radiating white 'tree root like' trails from exploding shells in the air in many different videos - recognised them immediately from the first time I saw it and with no mention of what they were. Very few materials behave like that.

I have studied Physical, Inorganic & Organic Chemistry at Tertiary Level.

Phosphorus is phosphorus is phosphorus - there is only one such chemical - yes, red, yellow and white, but the chemical still burns like buggery on exposure to air - a solid version of napalm, really. If you claim that I am wrong, and that it was 'something else', please provide documentary links to what real military material you THINK it was.

In my high School, a distracted teacher with a misbehaving class (we tended to watch him MUCH more closely in future!) once accidentally put Sodium (stored under oil) in the Phosphorus Bottle (stored under water). Putting Sodium in water is very dangerous, especially in ANY quantity larger than the tiniest 'pea-sized' piece. The resulting explosion set fire to the oil, which EXPOSED THE PHOSPHORUS TO THE AIR and wow! Firecracker Night on Steroids! - lucky the glass fragments went in 'safe directions' - not even the nearby teacher was injured.

Btw, a M.A.S.H. episode went realistically into the effects & consequences of (Korea War period, remember) a soldier hit by phosphorus fragments.


I can only say that I do not believe the lying b*stards did NOT use Phosphorus shells in great quantity - it is even documented that they set fire to the UN Food & Aid storage warehouse with them. I watched the footage from inside the storage area of them raining down and starting fires.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM

""You should be ashamed, but you are not are you Jim.""

That is the sickest joke you have ever produced, and you've produced many Keith.

YOU are an apologist for fascist thugs who bomb another country back to the stoneage, and JIM should be ashamed for opposing your specious rubbish?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:40 PM

OH - yes, and the 'nail in the coffin' argument about WHY anyone who says that there exist 'safe smoke producing only White Phosphorus munitions' is OUTRIGHT LYING,

is that IF they DID exist, trust me, every Riot Squad & SWAT Team in the world would use them - the fact that they don't gives me a little glow of faith in a minimal general level of humanity existing on this planet!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:33 AM

Don,
"JIM should be ashamed for opposing your specious rubbish?"

No Don, I do not expect to be agreed with.
He should be ashamed of claiming to have found an original piece by me on the net, and maintaining the lie.
Do you find that acceptable behaviour Don?

All armed forces use WP smoke. I have seen it often enough and have fired it from the 81mm mortar.
You will see that I have not supported its use in Gaza.
I said it was wrong and deplorable. It could also be illegal.
I only disagreed with Jim when he said it was a chemical weapon, which is wrong, and an act of genocide, which is simply ludicrous.

WP should not be used against civillians, but a battle was being fought. The smoke was to conceal IDF troop movements to reduce their casualties.
Only people out in the open during this battle were in any danger. from it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:49 AM

"He should be ashamed of claiming to have found an original piece by me on the net, and maintaining the lie."
Me, me, me. Sorry - should have realised that a slur on your otherwise impeccable character was far more important than the fate of the Gazans at the hands of Israeli thugs - apologies.
Others have said what needs to be said about chemical weapons far more eloquently than I could - thanks especially to Foolstroupe for an expert opinion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:58 AM

You still think it OK to lie just to try and gain a tiny advantage on a Mudcat thread.
And without shame!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 05:06 AM

"Only people out in the open during this battle were in any danger. from it." ? ?

'On 4 January, Sa'adallah Matar Abu Halima and four of his children were killed in a white phosphorus attack on their HOME in the Sayafa area in north-west Gaza.
His wife Sabah was seriously burned and told Amnesty International that she had watched her baby girl Shahed melt in her arms.

Soon after the attack Israeli soldiers shot dead at close range cousins Matar and Muhammad Abu Halima as they tried to take their burned relatives to hospital.'

'At about 6am on 17 January a white phosphorus artillery shell exploded in the UNRWA primary school in Beit Lahia, where more than 1,500 people were sheltering.
Two children – Muhammad al-Ashqar and his brother Bilal – aged five and seven respectively, were killed. More than a dozen other civilians sheltering in the school were injured.'

Amnesty International Report 2010

"....one patient, a three-year-old girl, who was sent for a scan because of a head wound: "After about two hours she came back, we opened the wound, and smoke came out from the wound," he said. Surgeons used forceps to pull out a substance from the wound that was "like dense cotton and it started to burn," he said. "The piece continued to burn until it disappeared." The child, who was from Atatra, in Beit Lahiya, in northern Gaza, died."

deadly burns consistent with white phosphorus

NB 'Phosphorus burns carry a greater risk of mortality than other forms of burns due to the absorption of phosphorus into the body through the burned area, resulting in liver, heart and kidney damage, and in some cases multiple organ failure.
These weapons are particularly dangerous to exposed people because white phosphorus continues to burn unless deprived of oxygen or until it is completely consumed.' - Wiki

During Operation Castlead phosphorus was used in the densely populated Gaza City
Many people were 'out in the open' fleeing from attacks

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 05:24 AM

"Only people out in the open during this battle were in any danger. from it."

I'm sure we could raise a one way air ticket so you could experience the real civilian conditions on the ground for yourself. Probably not much chance of you needing a return....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 05:48 AM

I will say again that I have not supported the use of WP in Gaza.
Everything I have said has been accurate.
The first picture here shows the projectiles bouncing along the roof of the shool. Anyone inside was safe.
A classroom did catch fire, but the school was also hit by high explosive shells.
http://www.france24.com/en/20100721-israel-restrict-use-white-phosphorus-munitions

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 05:51 AM

Click on image to enlarge.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 06:38 AM

WP munition "the projectiles bouncing along the roof of the school. Anyone inside was safe. A classroom did catch fire, but the school was also hit by high explosive shells."

ROFLMAO.... and you are trying to tell us that civilians are NOT targeted?

Just love that understatement .. "but the school was also hit by high explosive shells"

ROFL....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 06:54 AM

video of attack on school

It is disingenuous in the extreme to claim "Anyone inside was safe."

This certainly was NOT true for the family of Sabah Abu Halima

"The phosphorus smoke bomb punched through the roof in exactly the spot where much of the family had taken refuge — the upstairs hall away from the windows.

The bomb, which international weapons experts identified as phosphorus by its fragments, was intended to mask troop movements outside. Instead it breathed its storm of fire and smoke into Sabah Abu Halima's hallway, releasing flaming chemicals that clung to her husband, baby girl and three other small children, burning them to death"

Richard Silverstein quoting from a news report Tikun Olam

Even if you limit this misleading remark to the attack on the school it is obvious that anyone in the playground area at the start of this phosphorus attack was at risk as were the people who attempted to deal with the flaming pieces of phosphorus which can not be extinguished using ordinary fire fighting euipment.

Nevertheless I'm gratified to see that Israel has, in the face of irrefutable evidence that it used phosphorus munitions in densely populated areas and the universal disapprobation to the attempt to cover this up as well, decided to 'restrict' their use in future.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 06:57 AM

"ROFLMAO.... and you are trying to tell us that civilians are NOT targeted?"

There is nothing funny about any of this.
It is for smoke. It is dangerous, but not a targetted weapon.

"Just love that understatement .. "but the school was also hit by high explosive shells""
The school was hit by HE shells. Should I have used capitals.

Jim raised the issue of WP.
I challenged two of his statements.
He described it as a chemical weapon attack. That is wrong.
He described it as an act of genocide. That is ludicrous.
All the other stuff you raise, no one is arguing with you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 10:20 AM

"Israel did not use WP in confined spaces." 21 Jul 10 - 07:47 AM

Israel used WP in densely populated civilian areas - proved, despite all earlier attempts to deny it.

"US intelligence classified white phosphorus as 'chemical weapon"

Sigfrido Ranucci who made the film "The Hidden Massacre" looking at the effects of white phosphorous bombs on the civilian population of Fallujah in the November 2004 assault on the Iraqi city said that a US intelligence assessment had characterised WP after the first Gulf War as a "chemical weapon".

"In late February 1991, an (American) intelligence source reported, during the Iraqi crackdown on the Kurdish uprising that followed the coalition victory against Iraq, "Iraqi forces loyal to President Saddam may have possibly used white phosphorous chemical weapons against Kurdish rebels and the populace in Erbil and Dohuk.
The WP chemical was delivered by artillery rounds and helicopter gunships."

When Saddam used WP it was a chemical weapon," said Mr Ranucci, "but when the Americans use it, it's a conventional weapon. The injuries it inflicts, however, are just as terrible however you describe it."

From The Independent 23 November 2005

Used in a densely populated area in Gaza and NOT as the legal 'battlefield obscurant'** or 'means of illumination' (the attack seen on the school was in full daylight) WP can only be described - as its use was by Saddam Hussein - as a 'chemical weapon'


"The Israeli military may be using legal weapons, but it is using the weapons in an illegal manner"

Marc Garlasco
Human Rights Watch

** White phosphorus is permitted on the battlefield to make smoke screens to allow troops to move undetected, and also to impede infrared anti-tank weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 10:39 AM

Thanks Emma.
I have said all along that its use in Gaza was reckless and possibly illegal.
Confined space means as in an enclosed spaced.
The Israelis WERE using it as a battlefield obscurant which is legal, the complication being that there were also civillians in the combat zone.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 12:44 PM

"the complication being that there were also civillians in the combat zone"??

Gaza city is 45 km2 and home to about 400,000 people.
At the start of the Israeli ground invasion, operation Cast lead,even more Palestinians flooded in to the heart of Gaza City in the hope of finding shelter

As all borders were sealed Palestinian civilians were unable to escape from the 'orbit of harm'

There is no doubt that the Israeli forces had far superior fire power

Using modern weaponry on a large scale against an already weakened occupied people living under the very confined conditions that existed in Gaza City has to pose the question - is it possible to distinguish between legitimate military targets and the civilian population?

If this is not possible then such actions are not lawful.

I suppose if you re-define the city as a 'combat zone' then anything is permissible   - even the use of phosphorus in densely built up residential areas or 'enclosed spaces' if you prefer; certainly the wanton destruction of the civilian infrastructure in an attempt to bring down the government

(One of the most important questions raised by the Goldstone Report is whether there was an intentional Israeli objective to destroy Gaza's civilian infrastructure)

"The Dahiya doctrine is a concept said to be used in the Israel Defense Forces regarding asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, according to which a conventional army targets civilian infrastructure that is used by terrorists" - wiki

Gadi Eizenkot, a general in the IDF is credited with being the most prominent exponent of the Dahiya doctrine, a proposed and approved defence strategy of Israel under which "Israel finally realizes that Arabs should be accountable for their leaders' acts"
He stated -

"What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on. We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases. [...] This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved."


"In several areas of Gaza, the IDF destroyed or damaged civilian structures-including a flour mill, food factories, cement factories, and greenhouses-without military necessity as required by international law.
In total, Israeli forces damaged or destroyed 14,000 homes, around 60 health facilities, 68 government buildings, and 31 offices of nongovernmental organizations, according to the UN.

Throughout the war Israeli authorities banned journalists and human rights monitors from entering Gaza, and placed restrictions on peaceful protests against the war.

Israeli government authorities sought to cut off funding to Breaking the Silence, a group of IDF veterans that published the testimonies of 26 Israeli soldiers who participated in and were critical of abuses committed during Operation Cast Lead"

Human Rights Watch

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 01:09 PM

There have been two previous threads on the incursion, which I did not have much to do with.
The Gazan suffering and loss of life was deplorable, but it should be remembered that Israel only went back into Gaza to try to stop the rockets.
They who fired the rockets must share the blame for what happened.
The largest single donor of aid to Gaza is the EU.
Inn the aftermath of the incursion, an EU envoy visited Gaza.
"Humanitarian aid chief Louis Michel called the destruction left by Israel's offensive "abominable", but said Hamas bore "overwhelming responsibility".

He said there would be no dialogue with the "terrorist" movement until it gave up violence and recognised Israel. "

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 01:18 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7851545.stm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 01:21 PM

Sorry about post getting split up.

You and others will not accept that view, but there it is.
I really have nothing to add about the incursion into Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 02:13 PM

EU Development and Humanitarian Aid Commissioner, Louis Michel, ALSO said in an interview
"Israel is ridiculing international humanitarian law" - which obliges states to protect the civilians.

"One must continue to put a maximal pressure to stop the operations and secure the access to humanitarian aid. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic.
No more drinking water, no more electricity, hospitals in very bad shape."

"I am indignant when I see that there is little notice of the side damages suffered by one and a half million people who live in a tiny strip of land," he added.

He has also been reported as saying -
"blocking access to people who are suffering and dying is also a breach of humanitarian law."


Of course in stating a refusal to enter into formal discussions with Hamas Michel is echoing the official position that -

'Political contacts with Hamas are banned under the rules of the international Quartet for Middle East peace – which groups the US, the EU, Russia and the UN – on the grounds that the Palestinian faction remains committed to the destruction of Israel.
The international community insists that the ban will only be lifted once the Islamists agree to recognise Israel and renounce violence.

But this policy, set out in 2006 following the Hamas victory in Palestinian elections, has been called into question since the three-week war in Gaza'

Extract from an article in The Independent 19 February 2009

Earlier this month, Former EU commissioner Chris Patten suggested it was time to reassess the isolation of Hamas, saying that approach had failed to weaken it.

'Patten, who found it "easier to get into a maximum security prison in the UK than to enter Gaza", said Israel's relaxation of its blockade had not gone far enough. "It's moved from about minus 10 to about minus eight. It doesn't do anything to help restore economic activity in Gaza.

"It's difficult to understand what preventing exports has to do with security. It has everything to do with the view that Gaza should be collectively punished to discredit Hamas. Unfortunately there are some centuries, if not millennia, of history that show that does not work.

On negotiations with Hamas, Patten referred to his involvement with the Northern Ireland peace process, which "would not have been successfully concluded if we hadn't – with considerable American encouragement – agreed to talk to Sinn Fein/IRA.

"You don't always agree with people you talk to – indeed sometimes you find them despicable – but you need to ease them out of the corners into which they've painted themselves rather than lay on the paint much thicker.

"I think it's wholly reasonable to say we couldn't deal with Hamas unless they agreed to a comprehensive and complete ceasefire.
But do we need to insist on them accepting all past agreements?
Has Israel accepted all past agreements?
If you simply isolate them, do you weaken them?" In fact, he said, "you strengthen people who are even more extreme than they are".

The Guardian Sunday 18 July 2010

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 03:20 PM

"Human Rights Watch"


Not-so-secret motives

Israelis often wonder if the vilification of their country has anything to do with the fact that they are the world's only Jewish state.

Jews historically have played the role of scapegoat in many societies, and Israelis wonder if the effort to delegitimize their country is a modern gloss on an age-old tradition.

Israel-haters usually deny any suggestion they are motivated by hostility toward things Jewish, and they complain that the accusation of anti-Semitism is tossed about recklessly in order to silence them. The best way to approach this subject is case-by-case, which inevitably reveals that some attacks on Israel are motivated by anti-Semitism and some are not.

Yet there does seem to be a surge in cases where anti-Zionism is a vehicle for some deeper animosity.

The most sinister example was the hallucinatory anti-Israel documents which found their way onto the United Church of Canada website this summer. The documents circulated the libel that Canadians affiliated with Israel -- i.e., Jews -- have dual loyalties and can't be trusted in sensitive government jobs. In the ensuing uproar, the larger church membership wisely disassociated itself from those sentiments.

Also this summer, protests against a Dead Sea Scrolls exhibition in Toronto were carried out in the name of anti-Israel activism, but protesters were essentially arguing that the Jews of today are impostors and thieves who have no ancestral connection to the Holy Land -- another standard anti-Semitic trope.

Now there is the case of Marc Garlasco, a senior official with Human Rights Watch. In his capacity as an influential "human rights" activist, Garlasco has made a career of painting Israel as a criminal state. Scholars and other researchers have exposed Garlasco's reports as inaccurate and malicious, but no matter -- among anti-Israel activists, Garlasco is a hero.

This week, Human Rights Watch suspended Garlasco after learning that he has a, um, thing for Naziism. Among other things, he collects Nazi paraphernalia. Using fake names on the Internet, he has talked about how "cool" the leather SS jackets are. One pseudonym he reportedly used was "Flak88" -- "88" being code for the neo-Nazi salute, "Heil, Hitler" ("H" is the eighth letter of the alphabet).

Those Human Rights Watch reports attacking Israel always were a bit puzzling, being so one-sided and hostile. Sadly, they're perhaps not so puzzling anymore.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 06:32 PM

Well copied from an op ed by Gerald Steinberg!

N.B.
'The next time any respectable news media outlet quotes or interviews Gerald Steinberg, I'd hope they'd note that his NGO Monitor was hauled into Israeli court for smearing the reputation of a Palestinian NGO by claiming that it "justified violence."
The group in question, the Applied Research Institute-Jerusalem (ARIJ), whose purpose is to "promote applied research, technology transfers, sustainable development, and the self-reliance of the Palestinian people through greater control over their natural resources," did not take kindly to this libel and responded with a lawsuit.
Prof. Steinberg was forced to eat humblepie and released this "Correction" which should have also included the title "Apology:" '

article by Richard Silverstein


It seems unlikely that Garlasco is ever going to read this repetition of an attack on him from last year but he has defended himself elsewhere

The Huffington Post September 11, 2009

"I'm used to taking heat for my job as a military analyst for Human Rights Watch, because our findings that this government or that armed group has violated the laws of war frequently provoke accusations that we're biased or siding with the enemy.

Now I've achieved some blogosphere fame, not for the hours I've spent sifting through the detritus of war, visiting hospitals, interviewing victims and witnesses and soldiers, but for my hobby (unusual and disturbing to some, I realize) of collecting Second World War memorabilia associated with my German grandfather and my American great-uncle.
I'm a military geek, with an abiding interest not only in the medals I collect but in the weapons that I study and the shrapnel I analyze. I think this makes me a better investigator and analyst.
And to suggest it shows Nazi tendencies is defamatory nonsense, spread maliciously by people with an interest in trying to undermine Human Rights Watch's reporting

As an American child, I learned that Germans were the bad guys; as I got to know my grandfather, I realized that not all Germans were Nazis. Because of him, and my great-uncle, a gunner on an American B-17 bomber, I developed an interest in German and American war memorabilia, and I wrote a long monograph, published last year, on German Second World War Air Force and anti-aircraft medals

I told my daughters, as I wrote in my book, that "the war was horrible and cruel, that Germany lost and for that we should be thankful." I meant what I wrote. And because of the intense suffering during the Second World War and the genocidal campaign against the Jewish people, I spend my days doing what I can to ensure that such horrors are never allowed to happen again"


John H Richardson writing in Esquire October 13, 2009 asks
"Why Is This Good Man Getting Hung Out to Dry?

'Before becoming a human-rights worker, Garlasco worked in military intelligence.

Because of this unusual background, he has none of the lefty peacenik prejudices common to many human-rights workers. "Israel has every right to defend itself," he told me. "Not only a right, but an obligation to defend its people." Another time, he argued in favor of using bulldozers to clear a "free-fire zone." But Garlasco also criticized Israel for a number of human-rights violations, like "white flag killings" of people who were trying to surrender and using drones to kill too many people from a distance — including some twenty-five children.

BECAUSE OF THIS, AN ISRAELI ORGANIZATION CALLED NGO MONITOR HAS DECIDED TO TRY TO DESTROY MARC GARLASCO — NOT TO ARGUE WITH HIM OR DISPUTE HIS STATISTICS, BUT TO DESTROY HIM PERSONALLY.

Run by an Israeli academic named Gerald Steinberg, NGO Monitor is a rabidly partisan organization that attacks just about anyone who dares to criticize Israel on any grounds. It is dedicated to fighting "the narrative war," as Steinberg puts it in one editorial. ("Many Israeli Jews now realize that the narrative war threatens national survival.")

He has made a special project of attacking Human Rights Watch in editorials with titles like "Israel V. Human Rights Watch" and "Human Rights Watch has betrayed its original mission." H
e is so overwrought, he even attacks Jews who criticize Israel as "anti-Zionists" who are secretly in favor of "wiping Israel off the map."

Recently, Steinberg learned that Garlasco collects Nazi memorabilia. Garlasco also wrote a book about a certain kind of Nazi badge and made some goofy comments on collectors' Web sites about how his "blood ran cold" when he saw certain rare items, like a leather SS Jacket. There's a simple reason for this: Garlasco's grandfather was in the German Army, and the badge he collected happened to be his grandfather's unit badge.
Garlasco never hid this. When I first visited his home about three years ago, his grandfather's Nazi uniform was on display in a glass box. I didn't think there was anything particularly surprising about it — but then, my father was in the CIA, and I have CIA books and memorabilia coming out of my ears." '


Well Steinberg has had his 'victory' and Garlasco has resigned from Human Rights Watch so won't be publishing exposés on the use of White Phosphorus in Gaza City any more or on the 'Mass Home Demolitions in the Gaza Strip'

'Well done'!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 06:58 PM

My apologies for

"
"ROFLMAO.... and you are trying to tell us that civilians are NOT targeted?"

There is nothing funny about any of this.
It is for smoke. It is dangerous, but not a targetted weapon."


Could not find the Sarcasm Font.

But from your approach to this thread, I'm not surprised that it went over your head.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 07:04 PM

"This week, Human Rights Watch suspended Garlasco after learning that he has a, um, thing for Naziism. Among other things, he collects Nazi paraphernalia. Using fake names on the Internet, he has talked about how "cool" the leather SS jackets are. One pseudonym he reportedly used was "Flak88" -- "88" being code for the neo-Nazi salute, "Heil, Hitler" ("H" is the eighth letter of the alphabet).

Those Human Rights Watch reports attacking Israel always were a bit puzzling, being so one-sided and hostile. Sadly, they're perhaps not so puzzling anymore."

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 07:12 PM

Marc Garlasco – Is HRW's Anti-Israel Investigator A Nazi-Obsessed Collector?
By
Omri Ceren
Published: September 8, 2009Posted in: Diplomacy, Global

UPDATE: I've published a critical followup to this post, both because I've gotten specific emails accusing Garlasco of being a Stormfront.org contributor (100% not true) and because there's a general risk that this controversy is becoming one about him personally (misses the point). He's a guy who has a lot of inchoate sensibilities when it comes to Jews and the Jewish State, and there's obviously something going on that's consistently tilting his reports in an anti-Israel direction. If he was just incompetent then 50% of his mistakes would favor Israel.

He should never have been tasked with producing reports about the Middle East, if for no other reason than there's something moving him other than level-headed analysis. It's not straightforward and its not vulgar, but it's obviously doing work.

But this isn't about him as an individual. It's about HRW's institutional culture, where people couldn't tell that something was amiss because everyone holds the same opinions he does. His anti-Israel biases are literally institutionalized in that organization. As I said at the bottom of this post, this is their mess as much or more than it is his. More elaboration at the followup.

http://www.mererhetoric.com/2009/09/08/marc-garlasco-is-hrws-anti-israel-investigator-a-nazi-obsessed-collector/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 07:16 PM

didn't you just say that?

or rather didn't the discredited Steinberg?

Unfortunately however it is true - if you chuck enough dirt at people who criticize the actions of the IDF and Israeli coverups and use the usual despicable tactic of accusing them of anti-semitism - as seen on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 08:20 PM

"there would be no dialogue with the "terrorist" movement until it gave up violence and recognised Israel"

The typical pure intellectual fanatic position. Held identically by their Opposition who also wish to have an equivalent state.

Pragmatists realise this blind pigheaded madness ends only in death and destruction on both sides.

But the narrow minded fanatics on both sides use the resultant carnage against them to incite more hatred for their opponents and increase the carnage they inflict on their opponents,

Ireland would still be war torn if both sides had not moved away from this sort of rigid position of stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 08:10 AM

""He's a guy who has a lot of inchoate sensibilities when it comes to Jews and the Jewish State, and there's obviously something going on that's consistently tilting his reports in an anti-Israel direction. If he was just incompetent then 50% of his mistakes would favor Israel.""

You mean that any observer who is not in favour of fifty percent of Israel's human rights violations, is by definition biased and anti Israel?

Your post, in the light of the evidence against Steinberg's allegations, and the fact that he was forced to retract, has to be arguably the most inane comment so far on this subject.

Don T.

---

From Joe, in the first post to this thread:

No Guest Posts Will Be Allowed On This Thread.

If you'd like to post, be sure you are logged in as a member.
Thank you.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 12:54 PM

An interesting peep into the current philosophy of the Israeli regime from yesterday's paper.
Sabbar Kashur, an Arab resident living in East Jerusalem met an Israeli woman and told her he was a Jewish bachelor; the two went off and had sex in a nearby deserted building.
When she found out he wasn't Jewish, she accused him of rape – not that the sex had not been consensual, but that she hadn't known that he was an Arab.
He was arrested and charged with rape, but on a plea bargain, the sentence was reduced to 'rape by deception'. He was found guilty and sentenced to eighteen months imprisonment.
Question:
What is the difference between the Nazi racial purity laws, the U.S. Anti-miscegenation Laws and the laws of present-day Israel?
Answer:
Very little, it would appear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 01:25 PM

An unusual court decision that would make a rapist out of every person who lies his way into someone's bed.
It is unlikely to stand, and anyway such unusual legal decisions tell us nothing about the regime in which the court happens to be placed.
It might make liars feel uncomfortable, but it has nothing to do with "New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 01:33 PM

It's about HRW's institutional culture... anti-Israel biases are literally institutionalized in that organization.

And your supporting documentation for this allegation is?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 01:38 PM

Off topic but an interesting legal question

Even some of the Israeli press are none too happy about this ruling

"In the framework of a plea bargain agreement, Kashour was convicted of a rape offense as well as a charge of performing an indecent act. In addition to the prison term, he was also slapped with a 30-month conditional sentence and a NIS 10,000 (roughly $2,800) fine to be paid as compensation to the complainant.

Notably, the judges did argue that this was not a "classic case of rape," as the sexual relations were consensual.
So what was this act all about then?
According to the judges, the sexual act was elicited via fraudulent means and reliance on false information

This raises just one question: What would the court decide had a Jewish, married man falsely presented himself to a woman in order to get her into bed? For example, what if someone like that told a woman that he is a wealthy single man, while he was in fact poor and married? Would he too be convicted of rape?"

And if he were Jewish?
Ynet report today

Marriage between a Jew and non-Jew is not legally permitted in Israel any Jewish person who wants to marry a gentile must travel to another nation to marry

However the marriage laws can go a little further still...

"Irina Plotnikov cannot marry the man she loves, Shmuel Cohen, even though she is Jewish according to halakha (Jewish religious law). A rabbinic court in Jerusalem ruled recently that even though Plotnikov is Jewish, she is not eligible to marry a Cohen since her father is not Jewish. According to Jewish tradition, people with the surname Cohen are descendants of the priests that served in the Temple in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago.....

Since civil marriage and non-Orthodox religious marriage in Israel are not legally recognized, the sole option remaining to the couple is to wed overseas"

Haaretz 18.02.05

In March this year the Jerusalem Post reported that

"A court petition filed last week by the Jerusalem Institute of Justice on behalf of a mixed-religion couple could have far-reaching consequences for Israel's stringent marriage laws

Filed in the Jerusalem Administrative Court on behalf of a woman identified only as Miss Jackson, an Israeli-born former member of the Black Hebrews community in Dimona, and her partner, Michael Johnson, a Nigerian Christian, the petition identifies a gap in the law where the two cannot be married due to their differing religious identities and cannot live together in a recognized common law marriage because she is a permanent resident and not a citizen. Johnson, who arrived here in 2007 after meeting Jackson in Ghana the same year, has no official recognized status in Israel.

"There is a gap in the marriage law in Israel because there is no recognition of civil marriages," said attorney Michael Decker, representing the Jerusalem Institute of Justice. "People here cannot get married to someone of a different religion, and yet someone who is a permanent resident has no option to live in a common law marriage."

"It is totally unreasonable. They either have to allow civil marriages or allow people, even if they only have the status of a permanent resident, to live together under common law marriage."

Jackson and Johnson were married last year in a symbolic ceremony at their African church in Tel Aviv, but because the church's denomination is not officially recognized by the state, neither is the marriage. When the two applied for common law marriage status at the Interior Ministry, Johnson was threatened with deportation."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 01:56 PM

Thanks Emma.
What is the position on mixed marriage in other Middle East countries?
Jews are not allowed to live in Jordan, so there could be no marriage with them.

Is this thread to become a general Israel bashing thread?
Jim, you have reopened it after it lapsed twice now.
Do you plan to continue every time you find something you think shows Israel in a bad light?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 02:13 PM

"'rape by deception'. He was found guilty and sentenced to eighteen months imprisonment."

How can sex between consenting adults ever be considered "rape". This kind of reading of the law is a problem for women who treat genuine sexual assault seriously! This kind of stuff offends me deeply. If she consented she consented. If she learned afterwards that he was a cock, or a Rabbi, or a Gay man seeing if he liked it with women, is neither here nor there. The act was consensual. The lie was secondary. She was capable of consent, he didn't force her. Full stop.

Though this topic doesn't really belong here - bar it representing possible legal prejudice against Muslims in Israel - but it might be worthy of another thread which addresses other broader issues that it may relate to.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 02:35 PM

NGO Monitor (of which Steinberg is the president) has criticized several major international human rights organizations, apart from Human Rights Watch including such as Christian Aid, Amnesty International, Oxfam, the Center for Constitutional Rights and Médecins Sans Frontières (also known as Doctors Without Borders)of anti Israeli bias

In an 2005 article "Monitoring the Monitor", Jewish writer and critic of NGO Monitor Leonard Fein writes that NGO Monitor is "an organization that believes that the best way to defend Israel is to condemn anyone who criticizes it…

Fein, a former Professor of Politics and Klutznick Professor of Contemporary Jewish Studies at Brandeis University, also takes issue with NGO Monitor's statement that Human Rights Watch places "extreme emphasis on critical assessments of Israel" and has issued more reports about HRW than on any other of the 75 NGOs it concerns itself with.

In his article, Leonard Fein writes that HRW has devoted more attention to five other nations in the region — Iraq, Sudan, Egypt, Turkey and Iran — than they have to Israel; but that, despite extensive correspondence, Mr Steinberg has failed to correct the "misleading" statement about HRW on the NGO Watch website


In an opinion column he writes for the The Jerusalem Post, Larry Derfner asserted that
"NGO Monitor doesn't have a word of criticism for Israel, nor a word of acknowledgment, even grudging, for any detail in any human rights report that shows Israel to be less than utterly blameless.
In fact, on the subject of Israel's human rights record, NGO Monitor doesn't have a word of disagreement with the Prime Minister's Office.

"Rattling the Cage: The smearing of human rights organizations"


NGO Monitor has been characterized as a "right-wing Israeli NGO" by Inter Press Service.
Didi Remez, a spokesperson for the Peace Now group, said NGO Monitor "is not an objective watchdog:
IT IS A PARTISAN OPERATION THAT SUPPRESSES ITS PERCEIVED IDEOLOGICAL ADVERSARIES THROUGH THE SOPHISTICATED USE OF MCCARTHYITE TECHNIQUES – BLACKLISTING, GUILT BY ASSOCIATION AND SELECTIVE FILTERING OF FACTS."

Mideast: Israel Declares War on Peace NGOs IPS, Dec. 24, 2009

While it is, of course, legitimate to post copy and paste pieces from NGO Monitor sources on the forum, I believe it is important to look at what this privately funded, free of public funding regulations organization (unlike the other organizations it targets) seeks to achieve by its press releases.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 02:54 PM

"It is unlikely to stand,"
Tell the feller serving time.
"Do you plan to continue every time you find something you think shows Israel in a bad light? "
Bombing of civilians, use of chemical weapons, destruction of homes schools and hospitals, racist laws, piracy amd murder, land usurpation - all part of the same picture Keithie - do you plan to defend every act of ethnic cleansing, war crime, racist law that the Israelis come up with?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 05:45 PM

You forgot ethnic cleansing, genocide and baby eating Jim.
How you hate.
Remember ALL armed forces use WP smoke.
WP smoke is not a chemical weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 05:45 PM

""but it has nothing to do with "New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid."""

Which would also apply to most of your recent posts. People who live in glass houses...........

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 06:32 PM

'Remember ALL armed forces use WP smoke.
WP smoke is not a chemical weapon.'

Can we please bury your specious claims along with the civilian victims of these phosphorus attacks?

Maybe the smoke produced itself on an open battlefield is not harmful but the many pieces of burning, falling phosphorus that cannot be extinguished by normal fire extinguishers cause particularly severe and often fatal burns

Please read my post of 22 Jul 10 - 05:06 AM about this form of munition

'Phosphorus burns carry a greater risk of mortality than other forms of burns due to the absorption of phosphorus into the body through the burned area, resulting in liver, heart and kidney damage, and in some cases multiple organ failure.
These weapons are particularly dangerous to exposed people because white phosphorus continues to burn unless deprived of oxygen or until it is completely consumed.' - Wiki

In densely populated residential areas and school playgrounds people are exposed!

To refer again to my post of 22 Jul 10 - 10:20 AM

US intelligence assessment had characterised WP after the first Gulf War as a "chemical weapon".

"In late February 1991, an (American) intelligence source reported, during the Iraqi crackdown on the Kurdish uprising that followed the coalition victory against Iraq, "Iraqi forces loyal to President Saddam may have possibly used white phosphorous chemical weapons against Kurdish rebels and the populace in Erbil and Dohuk.
The WP chemical was delivered by artillery rounds and helicopter gunships."

Rain of Fire

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 07:22 PM

I see the haters are reaching to dig up more Israeli atrocities upon which to heap their scorn. Perhaps you can spare some of your vitriol for the issue of women's rights in the Muslim countries. I can just imagine the posts here if the Jews were stoning their women to death for adultery.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 09:19 PM

I see we have now moved from labelling ANY critic of the Israeli government policy as anti semitic or a self-hating Jew to a collective one of 'haters'

I was a staunch and vocal critic of Bush's administration and Blair's decision to take the UK into Iraq so I suppose that makes me a 'hater' too or does it only apply to criticising Israeli policies?

I have argued on this forum against the cultural practice of female genital mutilation and the imposition of the burka sometimes with 'disappointing' support from other members so please don't question my (often unpopular) stance on 'women's rights'

My own personal belief is that there is no excuse for the killing of women OR men in the name of ANY 'religion', 'culture' or 'tradition' - maybe I just don't 'hate' enough!


Stoning is largely prescribed, either by law or by custom/practice in particular communities, for the crime of "adultery of married persons"

It is a unique form of punishment in that there is no single executioner.
The simplistic act of gathering the victim's peers around him creates killers out of everyone

"Although it takes many different forms, stoning has been used throughout history and in many religious and cultural traditions as a kind of community justice or capital punishment.
For instance, the practice has been documented among the ancient Greeks to punish people judged to be prostitutes, adulterers or murderers.
It is also documented in the Jewish Tradition via the Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud, or Jewish Oral Law.
In the Old Testament of the Bible, stoning is prescribed a method of execution for crimes such as murder, blasphemy or apostasy.

Although there is no mention of stoning in the Quran, the practice has since grown to be associated with Islam and Muslim culture

Stoning is a highly debated topic within the Muslim religious community, and reputable Iranian clerics, such as Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi, Ayatollah Yousef Saneii and Ayatollah Seyyed Mohamamd Mousavi Bojnourdi, have spoken out against it.

Nobel Peace Prize Winner Shirin Ebadi, too, has spoken out against the practice, explaining that stoning should not be accepted as Islamic Law and only serves to humiliate and defame Islam.

Others have led lively theological debates to convey that the practice is not Islamic.

Many Muslim nations such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Tunisia, Algeria and others have banned death by stoning. Despite calls for abolition from around the globe, stoning still occurs in several countries, either under law or by the community."

From The Global Campaign to stop killing and stoning women

Stoning is one example, albeit a brutal one, of how culture and religion are being misused to control and perpetuate violence against women.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 02:51 AM

"Perhaps you can spare some of your vitriol...."
And now we have the apoligists scurrying into their anti-Semitism bunkers.
Are you really claiming that the way Arab women are treated justifies Israeli war crimes and that those of us who are opposed to those crimes support such treatment?
If this thread in any way reflects the outside world, the support that the Israelis are getting for their actions come from the rabid right - from those who would "wish the Irish to return from where they came from" or would support or excuse military brutality against civilians or throw their weight behind sectarian bullying - here acting as apologists for chemical warfare, the persecution, killing and ghettoisation of a people whose existance is an inconvenience.
I have no vitriol. My generation grew up with the images of skeletons emerging from the death camps and from stories of the attempted anihilation of the Jewish people. We are now witnessing continuing and growing anti-Semitism and as far as I am concerned, Israeli behahavior feeds that anti-Semitism and is an essential part of that growth.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 03:14 AM

Haters. Israeli haters. I don't like the term very much, but a term has to be found to describe the phenomenon. The very special attention in finding and denouncing Israeli wrongs. Often exaggerating, sometimes inventing. No other Country in the world undergoes a treatment like the one deserved to Israel. No other Country in the Middle East, where wrongs are many and often bigger than those committed by Israel. A Middle East under "Hama rule" (the town razed to the ground by Assad in 1982, thousand and thousand and thousand people killed, to crush a revolt lead by the Muslim Brotherhood). Many of these people specialized in denouncing Israel ignore what happens around Israel and apply the worst political terms in the world to label Israeli acts alone. The most shameful practise is to equalize Israel wrongs to the Nazism. (I suspect this demanding nothing in terms of human rights to the Middle East regimes except Israel has to be considered a form of racism). Them who don't share their obsession get branded, put in the bunch with the worst enemies of humanity, they decide who they are, a party to the worst crimes, they select what they are. But you're not allowed to put them in the bunch with anti-semite (although they often find themselves side by side with the anti-semite scum), because they are so touchy. I'm not sure the anti-Israel special obsession has nothing to do with anti-semitism, but if these activists retain the idea that anti-semitism (that is, hatred against the Jews) is a shame, I hope this truth will help them in the future to correct their one-sided, sectarian view, and OK, let's use another term to name this phenomenon. Ok for Israeli haters, then.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 03:18 AM

Emma, I agree WP is too dangerous to use in populated areas, but it is not a weapon and was not used as a weapon, but as a mechanism to produce smoke to screen their soldiers from those firing at them.
Don, my comments were only in response to the threadcreep and I did not reopen a lapsed thread to make them.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 04:31 AM

Roberto; with respect, it would be more helpful if you tried to explain the behaviour of Israel as outlined on this thread rather than malign the people who find that behaviour offensive and, in effect anti-Semitic. It is shameful to use the fate of millions of Jews as a defence of the persecution and murder of another race.
Keith - once again you are defending the use of chemical weapons on a civilian population by distorting the effects that they can have - or do you dispute the definition given above? Whatever the Israelis' 'motive' in using phosphorus, it is a weapon and the effect on people is as described - they knew that and attempted to deny its use when challenged.
"....threadcreep and I did not reopen a lapsed thread to make them."
And once again you are trying to manipulate a thread because you are unable to cope with its direction.
It is not your job to tell us what is and is not relevant to this thread - that's the job of the adjudicator - if you disapprove, complain to him.
No thread is permanently 'lapsed' (unless it has been closed by the site administrator) and can be re-opened at any time by anybody who feels a further point needs to be made. If you want to be in charge - apply for the job
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:35 AM

Keith, it is said that 'the pen is mightier than the sword'

Now I don't believe this is meant in anything other than a figurative sense although some written criticisms of Israeli government policy and breaches of international law here appear to have produced a predictable patellar reflex

So while the adage is obviously not meant to be literal, what is obvious is that if you deliberately stab your pen in the eye of an adversary then you ar using it as a weapon

Once more

White phosphorus is an indiscriminate killer that ignites once it is exposed to oxygen, producing such heat that it bursts into a yellow flame.

It has thermal properties which burn by heating everything around it, rather than chemical properties which attack the body's life systems . It therefore does not fall under the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention.

But protocol III of the 1980 Convention on Conventional Weapons bans its use as an incendiary weapon against civilian populations

The treaty also restricts their use against military targets "inside a concentration of civilians except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians".

The use of White Phosphorus solely as an obscurant in battlefield conditions is legal. However.......

"Article 1 of Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons defines an incendiary weapon as 'any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target'.
The same protocol also prohibits the use of incendiary weapons against civilians (already forbidden by the Geneva Conventions) or in civilian areas.

This protocol is only binding upon those who have signed it; the United States, has not signed or agreed to Protocol III. - Wiki

While the United States opted out of signing it descxribed the use of WP by Saddam Hussain as a chemical weapon although the Chemical Weapons Convention does not list WP in its schedules of chemical weapons

Saddam's use of WP against civilians in 1991 was included on the list of war crimes which was used in part justification of the 2003 invasion.

Incendiary weapons: The big white lie

'Mike Gapes, the Labour chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, said: "I think there is an issue here about whether the chemical weapons convention should be strengthened to include this particular substance because it is defined as an incendiary not a chemical weapon, therefore it is excluded from certain definitions." '

parlimentary report 2005

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:12 AM

White phosphorus smoke is not a weapon and certainly not a chemical weapon.
Jim and Emma both imply that it was used as a weapon on the palestinians.
Do you think the Israelis lack actual, effective weapons if they had wanted to kill Palestinians?
They are well stocked with seriously effective anti personel weapons.
The fact is that they needed smoke to protect their forces, and they themselves now acknowledge that it was wrong to use it in that area.
It was hamas fighters that chose a populated area as their battleground.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:15 AM

Jim,
"If this thread in any way reflects the outside world, the support that the Israelis are getting for their actions come from the rabid right - from those who would "wish the Irish to return from where they came from" or would support or excuse military brutality against civilians or throw their weight behind sectarian bullying "

That is not true of me, and I doubt you have any reason to say that about any other contributor here.
Once again you are making up lies about contributors instead of discussing their actual contributions.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:35 AM

"That is not true of me"
Happy to put up your (2) quotes if you wish.
"White phosphorus smoke is not a weapon and certainly not a chemical weapon"
Then you DO dispute the Wikipedia definition, Foolstroup's description of events and Emma B's - last posting - my, my, we do seem to be in the presence of an eminent expert!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:45 AM

Jim wrote

"it is a weapon and the effect on people is as described - they knew that and attempted to deny its use when challenged"

White Phosphorous, of the type used in shells in Gaza is defined as an incendiary weapon (Causing or capable of causing fire or containing chemicals that produce intensely hot fire when exploded) with legal use restriced to open battlefield conditions as a smokescreen.

NB Israel has not ratified Protocol III on Incendiary Weapons and Protocol V on Explosive Remnants of War.


But let's look at the second part of Jim's statement.....

"FIRST, THERE WAS TOTAL DENIAL OF USE; THEN THE IDF ADMITTED USE BUT CLAIMED THAT IT WAS LEGAL.
WHEN BREAKING THE SILENCE PUBLISHED CLEAR TESTIMONIES OF ITS ILLEGAL USE, TOGETHER WITH THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AND TESTIMONIES OF THE GAZANS, THE RESPONSE WAS TO SHOOT THE MESSENGER

WELL, NOW, RIBONO SHEL OLAM, ISRAEL HAS FINALLY ADMITTED TO ILLEGAL USE OF WHITE PHOSPHORUS IN THE GAZA CAMPAIGN IN ITS REPLY TO THE GOLDSTONE REPORT. WE ARE EVEN TOLD WHAT OFFICERS GAVE THE COMMANDS, AND THAT THEY WERE "REPRIMANDED."
(** see below)

HOW MANY CHANCES DOES THE IDF GET TO CHANGE ITS STORY BEFORE PEOPLE STOP TAKING IT SERIOUSLY? AND AT EACH STAGE THE HASBARA MOONIES PARROT WHATEVER HAPPENS TO BE THE CURRENT VERSION!

WILL SOMEBODY EXPLAIN TO ME WHY ANYBODY SHOULD GIVE ANY CREDENCE TO WHAT THE IDF SPOKESPERSON SAYS – EVEN IF IT HAPPENS TO BE TRUE? "


Is this a quote from one of those human rights organization like Christian Aid so 'hated' and smeared by the supporters of NGO Monitor etc?

No!, It is from the blog of an orthodox Jewish studies and philosophy professor, who divides his time between Israel and the US


However, the accurately recorded stages of denial, until refuted by evidence, protests of contentious 'legality' and placing blame on almost anyone else is repeated elsewhere not least in the official reports of the attack on the flotilla - the difference being on this occasion that photographic evidence that might disagree with the IDF version of events was confiscated

** Haaretz reported on 01.02.10 that -

'In an official response provided to the United Nations over the weekend in response to last September's Goldstone Commission report, the government said that a brigadier general and another officer with the rank of colonel endangered human life during by firing white phosphorous munitions in the direction of a compound run by UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency

But the IDF on Monday flatly denied that Division Commander Brig. Gen. Eyal Eisenberg and Givati Brigade Commander Col. Ilan Malka been subject to disciplinary action by GOC Southern Command Maj. Gen. Yoav Gallant. It did not deny that the munitions were in fact used during the war, however.

Nonetheless, the report that the Israeli government gave to the United Nations last Friday explicitly states that the two senior officers were disciplined after one of the investigating committees noted among its findings that they approved the firing of phosphorus shells at Tel al-Hawa "exceeding their authority in a manner that jeopardized the lives of others." '

From the same Haaretz report -

"The army also contended that the munitions were used in
locations remote from heavily -populated areas. "

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:55 AM

No, you refuse to read them properly.
White phosphorus, like petrol, can be used as a weapon and has been by the likes of Sadaam.
White phosphorus smoke munitions are designed to produce maximum smoke.
Though hazardous, they are not designed to be effective weapons.
Israel's were made by USA which does not manufacture or use chemical weapons.
All armed forces use them including signatories to the chemical weapons treaty.

Shall we discuss the legality of Hamas' rockets which Israel solely entered Gaza to try to stop.
Instead of a full explosive payload, maximising their effect on buildings, the explosive is packed around with ball bearings, nuts, bolts and metal fragments.
With what hope for all that metal Jim.
Remember these are fired indiscriminately at towns.
You have refused to even say either that they are wrong, or that they should stop.
You said of them, "every little counts."
Every slaughtered Jew counts.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 11:25 AM

Once again you excuse the use of chemical weapons by denying their effect - we saw precisely the effects described by Foolstroop on the film footage of the incursion - I suggest you address the points made in Emma's previous postings and others on the effects of phosphorus.
Or perhaps you'd like my dictionary definition.
"A highly reactive, poisonous, no-metalic element occurring naturally in phosphates".
"Every slaughtered Jew counts."
No - every ounce of resistance to Israeli state terrorism might, just might stop it, or at least draw attention to it and make them think twice - or maybe the Palestinians should completely surrender, d'you think?   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 11:29 AM

"Israel's were made by USA which does not manufacture or use chemical weapons"

The USA has not ratified Protocol III on Incendiary Weapons either

"While the use of incendiary weapons against civilians is illegal by Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (1980), this is not binding on the United States because it is not a signatory" - Wiki

"WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breaches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE.
We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out. .. We used improved WP for screening missions when HC smoke would have been more effective and saved our WP for lethal missions."
From Fighting For Fallujah: A New Dawn for Iraq, by John R. Ballard (2006)

The use of WP as a weapon against enemy combatants, as justified by the US above, is not actually specified in Protocol III of the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons. BUT if used as a weapon in a civilian area, it WOULD be prohibited.

An embedded reporter for the North County News, a San Diego newspaper, Darrin Mortenson wrote of watching Cpl Nicholas Bogert fire WP rounds into Fallujah. He wrote: "Bogert is a mortar team leader who directed his men to fire round after round of high explosives and white phosphorus charges into the city Friday and Saturday, never knowing what the targets were or what damage the resulting explosions caused."

Commenting on the use of WP by American forces in Fallujah
Kathy Kelly, a campaigner with the anti-war group Voices of the Wilderness, said:

"If the US wants to promote security for this generation and the next, it should build relationships with these countries. If the US uses conventional or non-conventional weapons, in civilian neighourhoods, that melt people's bodies down to the bone, it will leave these people seething.
We should think on this rather than arguing about whether we can squeak such weapons past the Geneva Conventions and international accords."

The same advice surely applies to Israel

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 11:37 AM

I do think that they should stop waging war.
Then the incursion which we all wish had never happened, would never have happened.
You still want the rocketing to continue.
You want more Israelis dead.
Resistance?
Hate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 11:45 AM

Emma, read that story carefully and you will see that WP smoke alone was not an effective weapon.
They were firing it into defensive positions to force the fighters into the open .
The Israelis were using it to screen their soldiers. They have plenty of effective ways of killing. The wanted screening.

This whole debate was started by Jim saying the Israelis attacked civillians with chemical weapons, in an act of genocide.
That was a travesty of the truth.
Some Palestinians were killed and injured by Israeli use of a smoke screen.
We could all agree on that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 12:36 PM

"read that story carefully and you will see that WP smoke alone was not an effective weapon."

Keith make your mind up - was it a smokescreen or a 'versatile' weapon as clearly stated?
Or are your numerous allegations that phosphorus weapons produce only smoke a smokescreen themselves?

"They were firing it into defensive positions to force the fighters into the open"

The operation was termed 'shake and bake'
An incendiary weapon was fired directly at combatants to inflict chemical burns (ro 'bake' combatants!) for a 'potent psychological' effect

The US Marine Corps Gazette is clear about the 'practical' uses of phosphorus, which ignites on exposure to oxygen and produces an intense heat: "Used when contact is made in a house and the enemy must be burned out."


Keith - please note
The Pentagon now admits that phosphorus was indeed "used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants" but denies its use against civilians despite reports such as the embedded reporters that it was fired indiscriminately.

Washington's (and Israel's) Washington's position is that phosphorus is "not a chemical weapon" and "not outlawed or illegal".

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, which polices the 1993 convention prohibiting chemical weapons, accepts that position.

Its spokesman said that phosphorus was covered instead by the 1980 Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to Have Indiscriminate Effects.

Both the US and Israel have failed to enact Protocol III, which bans the use of incendiary weapons against civilian populations and in air attacks against military forces in civilian areas

As a result of international disapprobation following the dreadful burns suffered by civilian casualties during Cast Iron the Israeli government has said it will limit (although not outlaw) the use of WP weapons

In a 37 report to the UN the Israeli government said

"the IDF is in the process of establishing permanent restrictions on the use of munitions containing white phosphorus in urban areas,"

"Some Palestinians were killed and injured by Israeli use of a smoke screen.
We could all agree on that."

It seems the Israelis, after initial denials and fudging, have now accepted that fatalities and dreadful burns were inflicted on civilians by the indiscriminate (and for many other nations illegal) use of phosphorus incendiary weapons in densely populated residential urban areas - whatever their alleged purpose

Any chance you could agree on that?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 12:50 PM

If anybody wants the facts, try this site:

                                                            http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2005/050127-fallujah.htm

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 12:58 PM

I could agree to your last statement if you delete "incendiary weapons" and insert "smoke munitions" which more accurately describes the incident.

You posted this.
"WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breaches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE.
We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out"

They used it "for screening", as a "psychological weapon" and to "flush them out."
They did not use it to inflict casualties. It would not be effective for that because it is not a weapon.

We are not going to agree on this. We have both stated our views.
Do you say it was genocidal?
Does it compare with an accepted "chemical weapons attack" like the attack on Iraqi Kurds at Halabja?
If not, it is misleading to use the same description.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 01:02 PM

From pdq's link.
On November 12, 2004, the U.S. Department of Defense issued a denial of the chemical weapons charge, stating:

"The United States categorically denies the use of chemical weapons at anytime in Iraq, which includes the ongoing Fallujah operation. Furthermore, the United States does not under any circumstance support or condone the development, production, acquisition, transfer or use of chemical weapons by any country. All chemical weapons currently possessed by the United States have been declared to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) and are being destroyed in the United States in accordance with our obligations under the Chemical Weapons Convention."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 01:12 PM

Also, all the napalm that the US had was systematically destroyed, and was completely gone by 2001.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM

Emma
The only way this clown can justify his stance on chemical weapons is to ignore the facts put before him - to date he hasn't even acknowledged, let alone disputed them.
He will continue to wriggle like a worm cut in half - all movement - no substance.
He is really not worth the time and effort expended on his non-arguments.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 01:45 PM

Israel got the munition from USA.
USA does not make or supply chemical weapons.

You called it a chemical weapon attack to make it sound much worse than it was.
You just spout propaganda.
I try to be honest.
You also called it genocidal.
Do you stand by that description?
Do you Emma?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 02:11 PM

Oh for heavens sake! - are you trying to drive me to total frustration or simply drive anyone who disagrees with you off this thread again Keith?


"As an INCENDIARY WEAPON WP burns fiercely and can set cloth, fuel, ammunition and other combustibles on fire. Since WWII, it has been extensively used as a weapon, capable of causing serious burns or death" - Wiki from the US Army Center

Want to disagree with the US Army too?

It is ALSO a highly efficient smoke producing agent used by tanks and armoured vechicles to mask movement from the enemy
Are you stating this was solely how it was used in the urban densely populated area of Gaza city - because the photos and other evidence don't seem to support this

In fact, the Israeli government released a report in July 2009 that confirmed that the IDF used white phosphorus in BOTH exploding munitions AND smoke projectiles.
The report acknowledged the use of exploding munitions by Israeli ground and naval forces.
Contrary to eyewitness testimony and considerable physical evidence to the contary, the report continued to deny the use of these munitions in populated areas and maintained smoke screening projectiles were the 'majority' of the munitions containing white phosphorus employed by the IDF

The Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, not the Chemical Weapons Convention in its Protocol III prohibits the use of all air-delivered incendiary weapons against civilian populations, or for indiscriminate incendiary attacks against military forces co-located with civilians but specifically excludes weapons whose incendiary effects are purely secondary, such as smoke grenades.

To claim that white phosphourous missiles fired from a distance which rain 100s of burning pieces of phosphourous soaked felt into urban areas fall into this category is blatent contempt for the Protocol

The legal position however, is not the only consideration in any war.
For instance, concerning the U.S. use of WP in Iraq, the British Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman at the time Sir Menzies Campbell, said

"The use of this weapon may technically have been legal, but its effects are such that it will hand a propaganda victory to the insurgency.
The denial of use followed by the admission will simply convince the doubters that there was something to hide"

Finally -
"They did not use it to inflict casualties. It would not be effective for that because it is not a weapon."

Keith have you seen the photographs of phosphorus burns - the description of a child simply 'melting'?

'Bake' is a sick expression to use against combatants but it means what it says! and not - you will notice - 'shake and smoke'

To 'burn out the enemy' means exactly that when the 'versatle' phosphorous is used in a house

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 02:22 PM

Emma, your report made it clear what they meant by those terms.
Everyone knows that phosphorus burns, but WP smoke is not an effective way of hurting people. Weapons do the job better.
The writer of your report confirmed that.

All along I have just been attacking Jim's emotive hype and propaganda.
He called it a chemical weapon attack to liken it to Halabja. Remember those mounds of mothers and children.
That was misleading propaganda.
USA does not supply chemical weapons.
I objected to that while agreeing that the use was deplorable.
I also objected to him calling it genocidal.
Was it Emma?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 03:28 PM

"You called it a chemical weapon attack to make it sound much worse than it was."
She called it a chemical weapon attack because it was a chemical weapon attack.
You have denied it was a chemical weapon attack despite the fact that it was a chemical weapon attack.
"He called it a chemical weapon attack to liken it to Halabja."
When and where? (I don't really expect a reply to this - you don't do awkward questions - but I just thought I'd try).
"I also objected to him calling it genocidal."
I believe that if they were not in the public eye Israel would have no hesitation in wiping out any Palestinian in the way of their territorial ambitions - or anybody else for that matter. However, I did offer to modify the term to 'ethnic cleansing' some time back so as not to offend your sensibilities and I have not used either term since (though I have no doubt that this is a fair description of their behaviour) - yet, in the true spirit of debate, you have chosen to ignore this fact - methinks the lady doth protest too much!
The state you are defending is a terrorist state, it has slaughtered unarmed civilians including the elderly, women and children, it has destroyed homes hospitals and schools, it has used chemical weapons upon civilians, it has attempted to starve the population into submission and it has seized Palestinian land (and is now making it legal to do so by altering their laws.
As a terrorist state it has carried out assassinations, is involved in wholesale espionage (only recently it carried out an assassination using forged Irish passports) and has been publicly seen in an act of piracy.
As I said - a terrorist state.
The fact that its policy is heavily influenced by religious fundamentalism makes it as unstable as any of the Muslim states of a similar leaning and the fact that is a nuclear power makes it a world threat.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 03:52 PM

You used the term "ethnic cleansing" yesterday.
By calling it a chemical weapons attack, you liken it to actual chemical weapons attacks, e.g. Halabja, but all far more horrific.
You and Emma call it a chemical weapon. The USA who made and supplied it insist it is not.
They neither make nor supply them, so it was not a chemical weapon and it is hyped up propaganda to call it that.
The reality is bad enough.

To call it genocidal was more than hyped up propaganda.
That was blatantly untrue..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 04:38 PM

"By calling it a chemical weapons attack..."
I'm doing no such thing - it was an attack with chemical weapons therefore it was a chemical attack (which was at first denied then admitted by the perpetrators) - I compared it to nothing; you are, as usual, making it up as you go along and putting words into my mouth.
It is really immaterial when I used the term 'ethnic cleansing'; if I used it yesterday I had overlooked having done so (that's what their policy amounts to as far as I'm concerned); but my point was that I agreed to use it instead of genocide (my attitude to this was made in my previous post) some time ago and you have deliberately overlooked this in order to score points and divert attention from your own totally untenable position.
"The USA who made and supplied it insist it is not."
Would this be the same USA that used Napalm and Agent Orange on peasant farmers in Viet Nam? Hardly a trustworthy source of information I would have thought (though a fairly apt bedfellow).
I wonder why my dictionaries haven't picked up their assurances?
"That was blatantly untrue.."
Israel's purity laws suggest otherwise - and you've never responded to the Shatila and Sabra massacres that Israel played a full part in - another of your convenient little 'oversights'!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:38 PM

""Often exaggerating, sometimes inventing.""

Difficult, I'd say, to exaggerate, or invent, the piles of rubble that pass for towns in Gaza, or to exaggerate or invent the origin of the explosive devices which produced those piles of rubble.

The many pictures and videos of sheet covered corpses of men, women, and children wantonly destroyed by well armed, but not apparently so well trained, Israeli soldiers, are neither invented, nor exaggerated.

Israel's activities are among the most comprehensively recorded in history, and yet their PR hacks continue to insult the intelligence of the rest of humanity, by use of exaggerated, and often invented, excuses.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:15 PM

""They neither make nor supply them, so it was not a chemical weapon and it is hyped up propaganda to call it that.""


White Phosphorus, when exposed to air, is so reactive that it instantly rips the oxygen out of the air and undergoes an exothermal chemical reaction (for Keith's benefit, that is a chemical reaction which gives out heat! Lots of it!)

It continues to burn, as long as it has access to oxygen (not necessarily air - once it is burning it will rip oxygen from most liquids), or until it is totally combined and the reaction ceases.

I have seen a small piece of White Phosphorus burn completely through a human arm, and continue to burn into a table top beneath.

However the US military may conveniently choose to classify it, Injury caused by White Phosphorus is a chemical process, so it is disingenuous in the extreme to continue to deny that it is a chemical weapon.

Anybody in close proximity to an exploding WP shell, or grenade, will almost certainly suffer at best severe permanent disfigurement and internal damage, and at worst, a long drawn out and agonising death.

I'd like to understand why you would set yourself up as an apologist for any state which authorises its use against civilians, and pleae don't insult my intelligence by claiming that a house to house operation requres a smoke screen. Such a screen would be as much to the advantage of defenders, as to attackers.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:50 PM

Jim, You said that this attack was genocidal.
You can not substitute ethnic cleansing for genocidal.
It is not a less severe form of genocide, it is totally different.
How can this attack be called ethnic cleansing?

Jim, Don and Emma, your calling WP a chemical weapon does not make it so.
USA has very publically, on the international stage, destroyed its chemical weapons, but not WP.
No international outcry because all armed forces use it including all those that have outlawed chemical weapons.
It is not a chemical weapon.
You are not in a position to change an internationally agreed classification.
Can you name one government that agrees with you?

I have not supported or defended Israel on any of this.
I have just called for some honesty from you propagandists.
Calling it a chemical attack was wrong and calculated to make it sound infinitely worse than the truth (which is bad enough).
Calling it genocide was a ludicrous flight of propagandist fantasy.

(Science leson for Don)
You said "White Phosphorus, when exposed to air, is so reactive that it instantly rips the oxygen out of the air and undergoes an exothermal chemical reaction (for Keith's benefit, that is a chemical reaction which gives out heat! Lots of it!)"

For your benefit, that is called combustion, or burning.
It can not take oxygen from water. Water puts the fire out.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 07:03 PM

Coalition forces in Iraq have used white phosphorus in both illumination rounds and in smoke-producing ones. This is standard, everyday warfare stuff.

White phosphorus can be used in incendiary rounds which are to be used against targets such as buildings.

They are neither "chemical weapons" nor "anti-personel" rounds.

Illumination shells are set to activate at a certain elevation so that they drift slowly downward, with the help of a fire-proof parachute, and illuminate the battlefield.

If such a shell were to fired directly into a building, it would not trigger the elevation sensor and would not activate.

Smoke rounds could be fired into a building to injure occupants, but this is not an authorized use. Those ordering such actions woud be in some trouble with the brass.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 07:18 PM

You are now playing with words - phosphorus is a CHEMICAL - it is by definition poisonous, it can severely burn and it can kill - that is part of the definition of its effects.
It is a war crime to use it on civilians and the Israeklis have used it in such a manner; therefore, whatever word games you are now attempting to play, the Israelis are war criminals.
Genocide;
Again you play with words.
The Shatila and Sabra refugee camp massacres were directed towards Palastinian and Lenanese Arabs. the death toll is unknown but is reckoned between 800 and 3,500. The Israelis in charge allowed the massacres to take place and provided the weapons.
A bit of cut-n-paste for you as you seem so fond of it.
"In 1982, an independent commission chaired by Sean MacBride concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were, directly or indirectly, involved. The Israeli government established the Kahan Commission to investigate, and in early 1983 it found Israel indirectly responsible for the event, and that Ariel Sharon bears personal responsibility for the massacre for allowing the Phalangists into the camps. The Israelis had been supplying the Phalangists with weapons and equipment, and had provided transportation of the Phalangists to the camps. The commission, which was not a judicial body which could recommend criminal charges, but an investigative body only, demanded that Sharon resign as head of the Defence Ministry. Sharon initially refused to resign, but after the death of an Israeli and the injury of ten other Israelis from a hand grenade thrown into a dispersing Peace Now rally, a compromise was reached where he resigned as Defense minister, but remained in the cabinet as Minister without portfolio. Sharon would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel."
Genocide in my book, especially as you have taken it upon yourself to re-define 'chemical weapons'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 07:19 PM

Here is another oustanding source of facts about chemical and biological agents:


                                                                   http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/98042705_npo.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 08:28 PM

"Jim, Don and Emma, your calling WP a chemical weapon does not make it so"

You know Keith I have often wondered if you ever actually read what I ACTUALLY posted rather than what you wanted to read - now I have it confirmed

If you pay me the basic courtesy of reading my posts you will see that no where have I ever referred to WP as a 'chemical weapon'; indeed I have been very careful to refer to it by it's official designation as an 'incendiary weapon' although you have continually denied this universally accepted definition too

Blame my scientific training for this!
I rejoice in the title of 'feminist fact finder' bestowed upon me by another catter although this was intended as a gross insult :)

As I have repeated consistently, there are chemicals used militarily that are not scheduled by the Chemical Weapons Convention, and thus are not controlled under the CWC treaties.
These include Incendiary or explosive chemicals (such as napalm, extensively used by the United States in Vietnam, white phosphorus or dynamite) because their destructive effects are primarily due to fire or explosive force, and not direct chemical action and also biological weapons and defoliants

For the purposes of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons Protocol III an "Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target.

There is unfortunately the possibility of fudging this definition as the protocol also maintains that
Incendiary weapons do not include: munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;

What I have attempted to demonstrate in several posts is that most authorities consider and describe air fired missiles containing white phosphorus which rain 100s of flaming phosphorous soaked pieces of felt as indeed an incendiary weapons

While WP is used as a smokescreen it is also used as an incendiary weapon , BUT can also be deployed as an anti-personnel flame compound capable of causing potentially fatal burns
When used against enemy combatants in this way it is not actually 'illegal' under the existing protocols - hence the 'shake and bake' operation in Iraq I mentioned in a previous post

"During the Vietnam War, the "White Phosphorus (WP), M110, was also used as a marker round. It could be fitted with PD, VT, and MT fuzes. When the situation called for it, white phosphorus became a devastating weapon against personnel". - The 1/92nd Field Artillery Association - Vietnam


HOWEVER

Under the Convention on Certain conventional weapons

It is prohibited in all circumstances to make the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects the object of attack by incendiary weapons.
It is prohibited in all circumstances to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by air-delivered incendiary weapons.
It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
It is prohibited to make forests or other kinds of plant cover the object of attack by incendiary weapons except when such natural elements are used to cover, conceal or camouflage combatants or other military objectives, or are themselves military objectives.



The Israeli government released a report in July 2009 that confirmed that the IDF used white phosphorus in BOTH exploding munitions and smoke projectiles
Contrary to eyewitness testimony and physical evidence, the report argues that the use of these munitions were limited to unpopulated areas for marking and signalling

(Please refer back to my previous post for photographic evidence that in fact WP air fired missiles were fired over densely populated urban areas in Gaza City)


Keith I don't know if your continual assertions against all scientific and military evidence that WP can not inflict harm because it is 'not a weapon' is pathological or simply perverse
It is certainly grossly inaccurate and whether it is your motive or not effectively sabotages any debate on the subject

As someone whose first career was in the chemical industry I really do recommend that you do some simple basic research on the effects of phosphorous

"For your benefit, that is called combustion, or burning.
It can not take oxygen from water. Water puts the fire out."

WP ignites spontaneously when exposed to the air and will continue to smoulder either until it is completely burnt up or when deprived of oxygen.
IT CANNOT BE PUT OUT BY WATER, ONLY BY SAND OR MUD.

(While water will put out white phosphorus very temporarily as soon as the phosphorus has access to air, it will start burning again. White phosphorus wounds are very unpleasant, since the phosphorus must be thoroughly washed out with a nonpolar solvent that is also noninflammable, for obvious reasons, before the burn can be treated. Carbon tetrachloride would be suitable, but it is dangerous because of the cancer hazard.)

Wounds resulting from phosphorous burns gradually become whiter and then toxic. Even small burns continue to expand. In some cases, the patient's condition deteriorates and results in death.

A doctor reporting on treating patients in Gaza said
"Some of these patients burn for hours. One of the patients, after two hours we opened the wound and noticed smoke came out of the wound!"
Dr Abu Shaban said he removed some of the particles from the wound and when he held them up and they came into contact with the air "a flame came out".

I await an apology or at least an explanation from you Keith for misquoting me

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 08:47 PM

Keith I don't know if your continual assertions against all scientific and military evidence that WP can not inflict harm because it is 'not a weapon' is pathological or simply perverse..." ~ Emma B

Talk about misquotes and misrepresentations.

You owe Keith an apology, not the other way around.

Everybody knows that WP can hurt people, but marking targets, illuminating the battlefield and obscuring troop movements with smoke are normal everyday activities in war. Neither civilians or combatants are directly targeted.

The WP "incendiary devices" are used to start fires, but I see no honest evdence that coalition forces are using them in Iraq or Afghanistan, and precious little evidence that the Israelis used them in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 09:12 PM

They did not use it to inflict casualties. It would not be effective for that because it is not a weapon.
25 Jul 10 - 12:58 PM

I agree WP is too dangerous to use in populated areas, but it is not a weapon
25 Jul 10 - 03:18 AM

"You called it a chemical weapon attack to make it sound much worse than it was.
You just spout propaganda.
I try to be honest.
You also called it genocidal.
Do you stand by that description?
Do you Emma? "

Please show me anywhere atall I either called WP anything other than an Incendiary weapon or used the word genocidal in connection with its use
Be honest
Do you stand by your accusations?
Can you Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 03:15 AM

The effects of "non-chemical phosphorus", as used by a country that "doesn't manufacture, use or supply chemical weapons"
The article comes complete with photographs.
Jim Carroll

The Independent
08 November 2005

Powerful new evidence emerged yesterday that the United States dropped massive quantities of white phosphorus on the Iraqi city of Fallujah during the attack on the city in November 2004, killing insurgents and civilians with the appalling burns that are the signature of this weapon.
The IRC estimates that at least 60% of the people killed in the assault of Fallujah are women, children and elderly.
Ever since the assault, which went unreported by any Western journalists, rumours have swirled that the Americans used chemical weapons on the city.
On 10 November last year, the Islam Online website wrote: "US troops are reportedly using chemical weapons and poisonous gas in its large-scale offensive on the Iraqi resistance bastion of Fallujah, a grim reminder of Saddam Hussein's alleged gassing of the Kurds in 1988."
The website quoted insurgent sources as saying: "The US occupation troops are gassing resistance fighters and confronting them with internationally banned chemical weapons."
In December the US government formally denied the reports, describing them as "widespread myths". "Some news accounts have claimed that US forces have used 'outlawed' phosphorus shells in Fallujah," the USinfo website said. "Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. US forces have used them very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes.
"They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters."
But now new information has surfaced, including hideous photographs and videos and interviews with American soldiers who took part in the Fallujah attack, which provides graphic proof that phosphorus shells were widely deployed in the city as a weapon.
In a documentary to be broadcast by RAI, the Italian state broadcaster, this morning, a former American soldier who fought at Fallujah says: "I heard the order to pay attention because they were going to use white phosphorus on Fallujah. In military jargon it's known as Willy Pete.
"Phosphorus burns bodies, in fact it melts the flesh all the way down to the bone ... I saw the burned bodies of women and children. Phosphorus explodes and forms a cloud. Anyone within a radius of 150 metres is done for."
Photographs on the website of RaiTG24, the broadcaster's 24-hours news channel, show exactly what the former soldier means. Provided by the Studies Centre of Human Rights in Fallujah, dozens of high-quality, colour close-ups show bodies of Fallujah residents, some still in their beds, whose clothes remain largely intact but whose skin has been dissolved or caramelised or turned the consistency of leather by the shells.
A biologist in Fallujah, Mohamad Tareq, interviewed for the film, says: "A rain of fire fell on the city, the people struck by this multi-coloured substance started to burn, we found people dead with strange wounds, the bodies burned but the clothes intact."
The documentary, entitled Fallujah: the Hidden Massacre, also provides what it claims is clinching evidence that incendiary bombs known as Mark 77, a new, improved form of napalm, was used in the attack on Fallujah, in breach of the UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons of 1980, which only allows its use against military targets.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 03:21 AM

Emma, I am sorry.
To be honest, I only skim read your posts looking for the salient points.
Honestly Emma, most people do not read long posts at all, but I know I criticised you before for selective editing and you are trying your hardest to be fair and balanced.

In my defence, you have never challenged Don or Jim for calling it a chemical weapon, and they have only attacked me for refusing to. You did seem to be supporting their position.

I have never denied that smoke munitions can cause injury, and said its use here was deplorable and possibly illegal.
Don pointed out that a direct hit, or a few feet away, will cause serious injuries.
Conventional munitions are effective over a much greater range.
WP smoke would not be deployed to cause casualties because it would cause vastly less casualties than conventional weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 03:31 AM

Jim, thank you for pointing out that phosphorus is a CHEMICAL.
So is every other substance in the world Jim.
Every explosion is a chemical reaction, so all weapons are chemical weapons. Right?

That is just sophistry Jim. By calling the smoke used in Gaza a chemical weapons attack, people would assume you meant chemical weapons as understood internationally.
A deliberate and cynical deception to make the incident seem far worse than it actually was.

By all means discuss the Mid East conflict, but be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 03:54 AM

So the statements by doctors treating wounded civilians (including the elderly, women and children) from phosphorus fragments during the incursion into Gaza, as reported by independent observers and as seen on the BBC documentary on the incursion were "to make the incident seem far worse than it actually was."
You have cited the people who carried out the Falluja atrocity as witnesses for your claim that phosphorus is not a chemical weapon - it seemed to have worked quite efficiently for them.
You really are an apologist for atrocities, aren't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 04:43 AM

Statements by doctors showed how bad it actually was.
Your describing it, wrongly and deceptively, as a chemical attack was an attempt to make it sound far worse than it actually was.
Blatant propaganda.

Falluja was a battle. Fighters on both sides were trying to kill each other.
The witness, cited by Emma, explained how they found WP effective for "screening," "flushing", and "psycholgical" effects.
For inflicting casualties they used weapons.

We are not a million miles apart.
This whole argument was just caused by your dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 05:26 AM

You started this theme off rather spectacularly by inventing two types of phosphorus - lethal and non lethal, claiming (without corroborating evidence) that the Israelis were using the non-lethal type.
You have been forced to back-pedal desperately, and are now claiming that they were only using smoke bombs (despite the injuries to civililians - no propaganda needed, the filmed evidence speaks for itself, as does your appalling apologist attitude).
The Independent article I cited carries some horrific photographs of the injuries inflicted by your 'smoke bombs'. The film footage of the bombardment of Gaza shows clearly the burning phosphorus fragments raining down on built-up areas - two and two makes chemical weapons being used on civilians, whatever colour you care to paint it.
Today's news says the indications are that Israel will refuse to co-operate with the United Nations Human Rights Committe on the piracy enquiry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 05:36 AM

"The witness, cited by Emma, explained how they found WP effective for "screening," "flushing", and "psycholgical" effects.
For inflicting casualties they used weapons."

Please don't 'skip' what I said Keith

The article I quoted from written by a captain, a first lieutenant and a sergeant, was a review of the attack on Falluja in November 2004 and in particular of the use of indirect fire, mainly mortars.

It makes quite clear that WP was used as a weapon not just as illumination or camouflage

"This tactic of forcing opponents out of cover is not new and should not really have come as a surprise. An article looking back at the Vietnam war published in 1996 by a US armoured unit (1st Battalion, 69th Armor) referred to "Willie Pete" weapons and their use in getting North Vietnamese troops to leave their positions:

"Our normal procedure was to fire these things at a hillside as soon as possible in order to get them out of the fighting compartment."

One wonders of course if, in Falluja, WP was used more directly to kill insurgents and not just to flush them out. In battle, soldiers take short cuts and this seems an obvious one.

Evidence that this happened in Falluja comes from an article by a reporter, Darrin Mortenson of the North County Times in California, who was embedded with US marines there.

He wrote about a mortar unit receiving coordinates of a target and opening fire:

"The boom kicked the dust around the pit as they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call 'shake 'n bake' into a cluster of buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week."

The tactic therefore seems to have been not to flush them out first but to bombard them simultaneously with the two types of weapons.

THE DEBATE ABOUT WP CENTRES PARTLY THOUGH NOT WHOLLY ON WHETHER IT IS REALLY A CHEMICAL WEAPON. SUCH WEAPONS ARE OUTLAWED BY THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS CONVENTION (CWC) TO WHICH THE UNITED STATES IS A PARTY. "

Even if it is NOT classified as a Chemical weapon the debate continues..................

White phosphorus: weapon on the edge

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 05:45 AM

To break down the analysis by Paul Reynolds
World Affairs correspondent, BBC News ......
ref as above

WP - THE ARGUMENTS

So WP itself is not a chemical weapon and therefore not illegal. However, used in a certain way, it might become one. Not that "a certain way" can easily be defined, if at all.

The US can say therefore that this is not a chemical weapon and further, it argues that it is not the toxic properties but the heat from WP which causes the damage. And, this argument goes, since incendiary weapons are not covered by the CWC, therefore the use of WP against combatants is not prohibited.

Critics claim that the US used chemical weapons in Falluja, on the grounds that it is the toxic properties which cause the harm. The UK's Guardian newspaper for example said: "The US used chemical weapons in Iraq - and then lied about it."

There is an intense debate on the blog sites about this issue. "It's not a chemical weapon" says Liberal Against Terror. "CONFIRMED: WP is a CW if used to cause harm through toxic properties," says Daily Kos.

Update 22 November: I have received an e-mail from a reader who points me to a reported US army document from 1991** which refers to WP as a chemical weapon. The document reports the possible use of WP by Iraq against the Kurds who rose up after the Gulf War. It says: "Iraq has possibly employed phosphorous chemical weapons against the Kurdish population."

The reader said this was proof that the US viewed WP as a CW.

I have also been contacted by Gabriele Zamparini of the Cat's Dream blog who appears to have published this document first. He makes the same point that the US Defense Department itself called WP a "chemical weapon." I offer these comments as part of the debate "

** the document I quoted from in a previous post


TACTICAL USE OF WP

The other argument is about the use of WP as a weapon.

The initial denials from the Pentagon suggest a certain hesitation, embarrassment even, about such a tactic. Some decisions must have been taken in the past to limit its use in certain battlefield scenarios (urban warfare for example). It is not used against civilians.

However the United States has not signed up to a convention covering incendiary weapons which seeks to restrict their use.

This convention has the cumbersome title "Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons." Agreed in 1980, its Protocol III covers "Prohibitions or Restrictions on use of Incendiary Weapons."

This prohibits WP or other incendiaries (like flamethrowers) against civilians or civilian objects and its use by air strikes against military targets located in a concentration of civilians. It also limits WP use by other means (such as mortars or direct fire from tanks) against military targets in a civilian area. Such targets have to be separated from civilian concentrations and "all feasible precautions" taken to avoid civilian casualties.

Notwithstanding the US position on the Convention, the use of WP against insurgents within Falluja does at least bring the issue into discussion, though one should note that the soldiers who wrote the Field Artillery article do say that their unit "encountered few civilians in its attack south".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 06:08 AM

Emma, WP smoke is a war fighting munition.
WP can be used in anti personel weapons, but armies of democratic countries only use it in smoke and illuminant munitions.
These are dangerous but not in comparison to munitions designed to cause casualties.
Do I need to say again that I deplored its use here and said it might have been illegal?

Jim, I have not backpedalled or changed my argument at all.
All I ever challenged you on was that Israel did not use chemical weapons.
Do you now accept that I, and Emma, were right about that and you were wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 06:52 AM

"but armies of democratic countries only use it in smoke and illuminant munitions."

Armies of those countries who are signatories to the "Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons." agreed in 1980, which covers "Prohibitions or Restrictions on use of Incendiary Weapons." have agreed to be restricted in their use of incendiary weapons

Neither the United States or Israel have ratified Protocol III on Incendiary Weapons, Protocol IV on Blinding Lasers, and Protocol V on Explosive Remnants of War.
Neither have approved an amendment that extends the convention's application beyond just interstate conflicts to intrastate conflicts.

Israel has signed, but not ratified, the Chemical Weapons Convention; it has not signed the Biological Weapons Convention


Keith, the Pentagon has admitted to the use of WP incendiary weapons in Iraq against insurgents on the basis that their use against military targets is not prohibited.

'Pentagon spokesman Lt-Col Barry Venable said this week that WP had been used, "to fire at the enemy" in Iraq. "It burns... it's an incendiary weapon. That is what it does." '
The Independent 17 November 2005

From the Israeli newspaper Haaretz 22.10.06

"Israel has acknowledged for the first time that it attacked Hezbollah targets during the second Lebanon war with phosphorus shells.
White phosphorus causes very painful and often lethal chemical burns to those hit by it, and until recently Israel maintained that it only uses such bombs to mark targets or territory.

Some experts believe that phosphorus munitions should be termed Chemical Weapons (CW) because of the way the weapons burn and attack the respiratory system. As a CW, phosphorus would become a clearly illegal weapon.

The International Red Cross is of the opinion that there should be a complete ban on phosphorus being used against human beings and the third protocol of the Geneva Convention on Conventional Weapons restricts the use of "incendiary weapons," with phosphorus considered to be one such weapon.

Israel and the United States are not signatories to the Third Protocol.

In November 2004 the U.S. Army used phosphorus munitions during an offensive in Faluja, Iraq. Burned bodies of civilians hit by the phosphorus munitions were shown by the press, and an international outcry against the practice followed."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 07:21 AM

Thanks Emma.
The British Army only uses WP smoke and illuminant.
I knew USA had got rid of its napalm, so it is odd if they have kept WP anti personel ammunition.

I only wanted to clear up the issue of whether chemical weapons were used in the incursion.
They were not.
Jim was wrong again.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 09:25 AM

"All I ever challenged you on was that Israel did not use chemical weapons."
Er no, you suggested there were two types and that the Israelis were using the safe ones; you also said that you got your information from a press report "like everybody else" - want me to drag it down for you or can you find it yourself?
"Jim was wrong again."
"On March 25, 2009, USA Based Human Rights Organization Human Rights Watch published a 71 page report titled Rain of Fire, Israel's Unlawful Use of White Phosphorus in Gaza and said that Israel's usage of the weapon was illegal."
Amazing stuff this phophorus - in Gaza it is a smoke bomb - in Fallujah, it is a weapon, but it is ok to use it as was a battle situation - in the hands of Saddam Hussain it was a war crime serious enough to be one of the reasons for invading Iraq.
Can you buy it at Woolworths?   
Whatever it is it maims and burns and is capable of killing, which makes Israelis' use of it on civilians a war crime.
Doesn't the use of this shit on civilians bother you at all or have you got your head shoved so far up Israel's arse that it doesn't effect you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 09:31 AM

Or perhaps you would prefer it from the Horse's Mouth; From the American Magnes Zionist:
Jim Carroll

Last summer I published a post in which I charted the different stages of Israel's cover-up of the illegal use of white phosphorus in the Gaza Op. You can read about it here. First, there was total denial of use; then the IDF admitted use but claimed that it was legal. When Breaking the Silence published clear testimonies of its illegal use, together with the physical evidence and testimonies of the Gazans, the response was to shoot the messenger.
Well, now, ribono shel olam, Israel has finally admitted to illegal use of white phosphorus in the Gaza Campaign in its reply to the Goldstone Report. We are even told what officers gave the commands, and that they were "reprimanded."
How many chances does the IDF get to change its story before people stop taking it seriously? And at each stage the Hasbara moonies parrot whatever happens to be the current version!
Will somebody explain to me why anybody should give any credence to what the IDF spokesperson says – even if it happens to be true?
By the way, there is evidence that there were other cases of use of white phosphorus besides the one referred to here

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 10:00 AM

Jim, there are 3 main kinds of WP munitions.
Incendiary/anti personel, smoke and illuminating.
That is what i was referring to, and that has been made clear throughout this thread.
Are you clear on that now?
I said I saw the news video like everyone else, and recognised it as smoke.
You should have dragged it down jim.

I never suggested smoke was harmless. In fact I said all along that it should not have been used and may have been illegal.
Drag that down too Jim.
And you said from the beginning of your latest reopening that it was a chemical weapons attack, and I refuted it form the beginning.
And Emma and I were right about that, and you were wrong again Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 10:37 AM

"Incendiary/anti personel, smoke and illuminating."
Funny you should say that - the article I just pasted gives a link to a Haretz article containing a photograph of phosphorus pieces raining down on houses in Gaza - wonder where they got that one.
The above definition from Wiki shows that there is one type of white phosphorus which has the effect of burning, maiming and possibly killing which is also used to produce smoke.
But don't let facts get in the way of your defending your war criminal friends.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 10:47 AM

"The above definition from Wiki shows that there is one type of white phosphorus "
There is one type of WP from which different types of device can be made.
Give it up jim.
You were wrong again.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 11:33 AM

In the interest of balance, Human Rights Watch state that those who launch the rockets from Gaza into Israel, and those who give the orders, are guilty of war crimes.
That does not excuse israel if its actions are shown to be illegal, but it needs to be said.
You Jim refused over and over again to say that those war crimes were wrong, or that they should stop.
Every little (death) helps was what you said.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 11:49 AM

White Phosphorous as a weapon Gaza CNN News

"WP munitions are very common -- particularly as smoke grenades for infantry; loaded in defensive grenade dischargers on tanks and other armored vehicles; or as part of the ammunition allotment for artillery or mortars.

However, white phosphorus has a secondary effect.

While much less efficient than ordinary fragmentation effects in causing casualties, white phosphorus burns quite fiercely and can set cloth, fuel, ammunition and other combustibles on fire.

It also can function as an anti-personnel weapon with the compound capable of causing serious burns or death.

The agent is used in bombs, artillery, and mortars, short-range missiles which burst into burning flakes of phosphorus upon impact.

White phosphorus is commonly referred to in military jargon as "WP". The slang term "Willy(ie) Pete" or "Willy(ie) Peter", dating from World War I and common at least through the Vietnam War, is still occasionally heard.

White phosphorus weapons are controversial today because of their potential use against civilians.

While the Chemical Weapons Convention does not designate WP as a chemical weapon, various groups consider it to be one.

In recent years, the United States, Israel, and Russia have used white phosphorus in combat"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 12:31 PM

Jim, Jim, Jim...

You are now playing with words - The IRON rods the "peacefull protestors attacked the IDF with were CHEMICAL ( made of chemicals) - They can severely damage and can kill .

It is a war crime to use it on IDF forces and the Palestinians have used it in such a manner; therefore, whatever word games you are now attempting to play, the Palestinians are war criminals.

The use of random mass area bombardment anti-personnel rockets are a violaytion of the Geneva conventions, and the Israeli incurance was to stop those war crimes from continuing. I will take your protests to mean that you do not approve of actions to stop war crimes.

Unless of course you think Jews are not human enough to get the same protection under law that you want the Palestinians to have. Then your statments make sense- that Jews cannot under any circumstances defend themselves, and their attackers ( in a state of war NOT of Israel's choosing) should have the protection of the laws that you will not give the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 01:35 PM

"Every little (death) helps was what you said."
Don't put words into my mouth again
Every little effort to remove the fascist invader will do nicely.
Phosphorus spraying down on civilians is chemical warfare and is a war crime, attempting to eject armed invaders with whatever comes to hand is not.
I can't help but notice that nobody has addressed the fact that Israel is commiting war crimes and is backing out of the UN evquiry on human rights.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 01:51 PM

"attempting to eject armed invaders with whatever comes to hand is not."

So the Israelis are entitled to use anything they wish on those who attack them, within the area of Mandate Palestine ( as accepted by the Arabs in 1923)?


YES OR NO:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 02:17 PM

Jim, regarding the rocket attacks against Israeli civillians you said,
"Every little effort to remove the fascist invader will do nicely."

You are condoning war crimes by one side while raging about possibly illegal actions by the other.

Can you not see why I felt the need to inject a little balance?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 02:57 PM

BTW, the 1923 borders ( the last accepted by the Arabs) were the ones for the Jewish Homeland AFTER 77% of the Mandate was given to the Arabs, and Jews forbidden from settling there. So, it was the 23% of the Mandate that was supposed to be the Jewish Homeland. The Arabs accepted those borders in 1923, but wanted the entire region in 1948 and attacked the new state of Israel.

So the Israelis are entitled to use any weapons they wish on the invaders, on the West Bank and in Gaza.

Glad you admit that the Palestinians should ALL pack up and move to the ARAB homeland of Jordan, to allow for peace in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 03:45 PM

"So the Israelis are entitled to use anything they wish on those who attack them,"
Am I mistaken in believing that phosporus is a forbidden substance for use where non combatants are likely to be affected, whereas iron bars are not?
There is something very sad about the fact that the most persecuted people in the world have produced a group of persecutors who have taken up many of the practices of their persecutors for their own use. But there is something pathetic aout their hangers-on-from afar running around like headless chickens trying to prove what is and what is not a chemical weapon not ulike the jarveys her who now have to run behind their horses sweeping up the shit.
"You are condoning war crimes by one side while raging about possibly illegal actions by the other."
The invaded are entitled to take action against the invader, especially those who behave like fascist thugs.
Still no comment on war crimes and failure to co-operate with the UN enquiry - ah well, at least Keithie has somebody to do his thinking for him again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 03:50 PM

"The invaded are entitled to take action against the invader, especially those who behave like fascist thugs.
"

So you agree the Israelis can do whatever they like, according to your standards for the Palestinians?

YES OR NO:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 04:20 PM

Apart from the fact that (as ludicrous as it sounds) 'civilised' nations have surrounded themselves with a set of rules in which to regulate behaviour in war - which the Israelis have exceeded - making themselves war criminals, no, I don't believe that Palestinian civilians are a legitimate target for Israeli brutality.
I believe the Israelis have committed war crimes and I also believe that they know it, hence their refusal to co-operate with a UN independent enquiry.
Once again they are insisting that they will give themselves a 'fair trial' and find themselves 'not guilty' no doubt.
As I said - fascist thugs (with somewwhat pathetic hangers-on).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 04:39 PM

Jim,

You have not answered the question- do you stand behind your statement that "The invaded are entitled to take action against the invader, especially those who behave like fascist thugs. "

Or do you only let Arabs have that right, and deny it to Jews??


YES OR NO:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 05:56 PM

"Or do you only let Arabs have that right, and deny it to Jews?
Don't you mean Israelis - it is they who are committing the war crimes, not the Jewish people.
In terms of this discussion, the Israelis are the agressors and their treatment of civilians places them beyond having any rights; would you argue the same right for the Third Reich?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 06:08 PM

Bruce the 20th C history of the Middle East is very complex and the British and French have a lot to answer for but - I don't think the resident Arab population of the area that includes Gaza and the West Bank could by any description, or stretch of the imagination, be called 'invaders' although many are the children of refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 06:14 PM

The statements by Palestinians is anti-Jewish. It seems you forgot to remind them of a difference.

The entire area that has been given to those refugees was a part of the Mandate Palestine intended to be a Jewish Homeland- the invasion by Arabs was in 1948, and that war has not yet been completely resolved.

To blame the Israelis for defending themselves is a bigotted viewpoint- LOOK at what thee Arabs did to those areas they had control over from 1948 until 1967- and tell me that the Israelis do not treat Palestinians better than the Arabs treated Jews, or even those Palestinian Refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 11:08 PM

"The statements by Palestinians is anti-Jewish"

True - as is the reverse:

"The statements by Jewish elements is anti-Palestinian"

QUOTE
The typical pure intellectual fanatic position(s). Held identically by their Opposition who also wish to have an equivalent state.

Pragmatists realise this blind pigheaded madness ends only in death and destruction on both sides.

But the narrow minded fanatics on both sides use the resultant carnage against them to incite more hatred for their opponents and increase the carnage they inflict on their opponents,

Ireland would still be war torn if both sides had not moved away from this sort of rigid position of stupidity.

UNQUOTE

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 03:28 AM

As Emma B rightly points out - the Israeli-Palestine question is a complicated one, far too complicated to be satisfactorily disscussed here - certainly by me.
What is not in question is Israel's brutal behavior; the act of piracy, the slaughter of refugees, the use of weapons, chemical or otherwise, on civilians, the destruction of homes, hospitals and schools, the open attempts at humiliation and persecution of the ordinary citizens of Gaza, the failure of the Israelis to meet the basic standards of conflict agreed upon so that humanity does not descend into bestiality and its refusal to even participate, never mind adher to the findings of the UN Human Rights Committee investgation.
That issue is ongoing, with more examples every day - stories that could have been ripped out of the pages of Martin Gilbert's oral history, 'Holocaust', the parellels are so obvious.
It is this that the Israeli apologists have totally failed to address and continue to ignore - their deafening silence says it all far more eloquently than any of us possibly could.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 04:07 AM

To Jim, everything is childishly simple..
Israel bad, Hamas good.Believe everything of one, nothing of the other.
Israel is a tiny country that has had and is still having to fight for its very survival.

He states "What is not in question is Israel's brutal behavior; the act of piracy, the slaughter of refugees, the use of weapons, chemical or otherwise, on civilians, the destruction of homes, hospitals and schools, the open attempts at humiliation and persecution of the ordinary citizens of Gaza, the failure of the Israelis to meet the basic standards of conflict"

Every accusation IS questioned and disputed. None is simple fact.
It has not used illegal or chemical weapons Jim.
The rules say you must not attack civillians with any weaponry, but if your enemy attacks you using civillians as a shield, you are expected to show restraint but you can attempt to deal with the enemy. If you take reasonable steps it is legal even if people die.

Using civillians as a shield is a war crime.
The incursion was only launched to try and stop another war crime.
No dispute. The rockets are intended to kill and maim ordinary people, adults and children.
A war crime that Jim condones. "Evey little helps."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 05:19 AM

Every little helps.
Chilling.

Jim says he is a pacifist.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 07:15 AM

You seem to need to bee seen to the extent that your postings come in pairs.
Say something original rather than bouncing off what others have said,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 08:06 AM

"not used illegal or chemical weapons"

Sigh - it's nice to redefine terms in the middle of a discussion....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 09:40 AM

A question for Jim. Some posts before, you've definied Israel "the invader". May I ask on what part of the soil that makes up the state of Israel you wouldn't call Israel "invader"? Where would you say that Israel is at home?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 01:00 PM

Since the Six Day War Israel has forcibly expanded into Palestinian Territory; in some cases they have been forced to withdraw, or appear to withdraw, but its policy remains expansionism.
As I said, I don't fully understand the rights and wrongs of the territorial dispute; my main concern is their fascist behaviour towards non-combatants, from ordinary citizens to those attempting to bring relief to a besieged people.
Keith said the matter is complicated - this aspect is probably the least complicated of the whole dispute. If Israel wishes to be treated like a responsible, humane state it must behave like one. There can be no possible excuse for the way it treats non-combatants.
It is said that Israeli troops behave the way they do towards civilians because Hamas uses them as shields - even if this were true (and I believe it to be only fractionally so and mostly an excuse to terrorise the Palestinian people as a whole) - but even if it were true NO CIVILISED SOCIETY KILLS OR ENDANGERS THE LIVES OF HOSTAGES. He described Israel as "a tiny country that has had and is still having to fight for its very survival"; a 'weird description for a militaristic nuclear power, deeply into the use of assassination, espionage and simple bully-boy tactics in its expansionist pursuits.
It has some international support, mainly due to its economic and political clout, but it is widely regarded as a terrorist state - if a reactionary country like Turkey can walk away from it as being beyond the pale, something must be coming adrift for them.
Nobody has commented on their refusal to co-operate with the United Nations enquiry into human rights abuses - if their behaviour is so impeccable, why?
Israel appears not to care how it is considered by the rest of the world and is blatent in its human rights abuses, which makes the lickspittle apologists who would turn weapons capable of poisoning, maiming and killing into 'smoke bombs", lethal weapons carried in acts of piracy into "paint-bomb pistols" (and - on another thread, three days of street rioting in Belfast into "skirmishes") so disgusting.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 02:20 PM

So, since in 1968 the Protestants were firmly entrenched in NI, There can be NO allowing of any change to give that area back to Catholics- since it had been YEARS since they controlled it.

You ignore that FACT that the LAST borders accepted by the Arab nations was the 1923 split of Mandate Palestine into the TWO Homelands, with 77% going to the Arab Homeland of TransJordan, with Jews forbidden to settle, and 23% becoming the Jewish Homeland.

YOU claim that the invaded have the right to remove the invaders.

YOU claim that they can do anything needed to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 03:02 PM

I ignore nothing Bruce - my position on the politics of the affair is limited as stated.
My involvement of this thread has been on the basis of the aggressive attitude by the Israelis to anybody who gets in their way, which moves me to believing them to be the agressors - but whether that is true or not - their bombastically vicious attitude to non-combatants - which you and your faction appear to either support or ignore, is what concerns me.
Whatever the Palestinian's overall aim might be, primitive rocket launchers against a well armed (nuclear) state strikes me as being defence, or at most, retaliation, and measure up somewhat pathetically against the tanks, planes, and heavy weaponry, including chemical missiles (whatever you and your apologists try to disguise them as) of Israel.
How about you andf youir friends giving us your wisdom an the war crimes and abuses committed by the Israelis and their refusal to participate in the United Nations enquiry, or their participation in the Sharila and Sabra massacres - won't hold my breath though.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 03:24 PM

Jim,

So, if I attack you with a club, and you have a gun, it would be wrong of you to use the gun??

The Arabs invaded the Jewish Homeland in 1948. SOME of the Palestinian Arabs, who wanted to get ALL the land ( as promised to them by the Arab League) got out of the way of the invading army, and became refugees.

The larger number stayed in Israel, became citizens, and live in peace. ISRAEL settled the Arab Jews that were driven out of Arab nations- TELL ME why the Arab nations did not settle the Palestinian Arabs who fled?


And tell me what happenned to the Jewish population ( and the Christians) of the West bank from 1948 to 1967?

Or do you only support the rights of Non-Jews?

When I hear you express regret at the Palestinians using bruning tire of gasoline to execute political rivals, I might listen to the rest of your comments: Until then, I have to think you care more about condemning Israel than about the lives of Palestinian Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 04:09 PM

The flaw in your analogy is that the Israelis have aimedd their savagery at non-combatants, a fact which you and your fellow apologists consistently avoid.
As I said earlier, no civilised society kills hostages, even if the claims that what they are is true.
I'm sure that the Israelis participated in the Sabra and Shatila massacre because they believed that the refugee camps were crawling with militants - I don't think.
Still no comment on civilian atrocities I see - as silent as our parrot friend who seems to have taken flight.
And you come back when you cease to be a Zionist- fanatic mouthpiece and give us a hint on what you think on human rights abuses.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 04:14 PM

And I note you do not address ANY of my questions.


I guess my assumption that you hate Jews more than you care about people is true.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 04:43 PM

You are the one who makes it a 'Jewish' thing - that's the second toime you've done it.
My grouse is with the Israelis, not the Jews.
But you continue crouching behind the dead of Auzwich if it makes you feel any more justified in your defence of human rights abuses.
As I said earlier, the greatest friends of anti-Semitism today are the Israeli thugs and their apologists.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 05:11 PM

So, if I attack you with a club, and you have a gun, it would be wrong of you to use the gun??

So if someone drops fully armed onto your boat in international waters would it be wrong to defend yourself with a club?


The history of the Palestinian refugees, like most historical accounts, depends on who is writing it; history is usually written by the 'victors'

However I don't think I have ever come across such a blatant misrepresentation as that presented by BB!


During the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, around 750,000 out of 900,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from the territories that became the State of Israel
-United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine.

As Wiki states

"The causes and responsibilities of the exodus are a matter of controversy among historians and commentators of the conflict

Whereas historians now agree on most of the events of that period, there remains disagreement as to whether the exodus was the result of a plan designed before or during the war by Zionist leaders, was the result of a plan designed before or during the war by Arab leaders, or was an unintended consequence of the war.

Between December 1947 and March 1948, around 100,000 Palestinian Arabs fled. Among them were many from the higher and middle classes from the cities, who left voluntarily, expecting to return when the Arab states took control of the country.
When the Haganah went on the offensive, between April and July, a further 250,000 to 300,000 Palestinian Arabs left or were expelled, mainly from the towns of Haifa, Tiberias, Beit-Shean, Safed, Jaffa and Acre, which lost more than 90 percent of their Arab inhabitants.
Expulsions took place in many towns and villages, particularly along the Tel-Aviv-Jerusalem road and in Eastern Galilee.

About 50,000-70,000 inhabitants of Lydda and Ramle were expelled towards Ramallah by the Israel Defence Force during Operation Danny and most others during operations of the IDF in its rear area

During Operation Dekel, the Arabs of Nazareth and South Galilee were allowed to remain in their homes.
Today they form the core of the Arab Israeli population.

From October to November 1948, the IDF launched Operation Yoav to remove Egyptian forces from the Negev and Operation Hiram to remove the Arab Liberation Army from North Galilee during which at least nine massacres of Arabs were carried out by IDF soldiers. These events generated an exodus of 200,000 to 220,000 Palestinian Arabs. Here, Arabs fled fearing atrocities or were expelled if they had not fled. After the war, from 1948 to 1950, the IDF expelled around 30,000 to 40,000 Arabs from the borderlands of the new Israeli state.
Many of these figures are from research by Israeli historian Benny Morris who basically claimed that all the Israeli historiography that preceded his book and several other writings was completely fabricated, a series of untrue myths designed to serve the Zionist need for legitimacy.


"As for Palestinian Christians, refugees and non-refugees, they are found mostly in urban areas of the Middle East but many have opted to leave to far away lands such as the USA, Central and South America, Australia and Canada.

The dispersal of Palestinians since 1948 has spared no one family or group.
The demographics of Palestinian Christians is as much shaped by the politics of the Arab-Israeli conflict, as it is the demographics of Palestinians in general.

Palestinian Christians in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip belong to fifteen different denominations, the largest of which are the Greek Orthodox (51 percent), and the Roman Catholics (32 per cent.) Some smaller denominations, such as the Copts who are originally from Egypt, do not number more than a score of families. Yet each denomination or community maintains a rich tradition of rites and rituals, beside educational and other institutions, that speaks of its long presence and attachment to the land called holy"
- Bernard Sabella Associate professor of Sociology Bethlehem University

p.s. Of course I'm also aware of the number of Jewish people that immigrated into Israel from the surrounding Arab countries too during this conflict but then I'm not attempting to minimise or dispute this!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 05:29 PM

"So if someone drops fully armed onto your boat in international waters would it be wrong to defend yourself with a club?"

If Customs inspectors stop your ship, and come on board armed, AND YOU ATTACK THEM, YOU WOULD BE KILLED. The port was under blockade, and Israel has the right to prevent MORE illegal ( according to Geneva Convention) rockets from coming in.



"During the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, around 750,000 out of 900,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from the territories that became the State of Israel
-United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine. "
( The number I have seen as best estimate is 640,000)

Which overlooks the population of the Mandate Palestine declared in 1923 to be the Jewish Homeland- THOSE territories were captured by Egypt and Jordan. ONLY the Jews and Christians were removed from those areas.



And the 820,000 Jews driven out of Arab countries? THAT was the vast majority - YET YOU IGNORE THEM. A LARGER NUMBER, but since they were just Jews, I guess they have no significance to you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 05:50 PM

"The number I have seen as best estimate is 640,000"

Take it up with the UN Bruce!

Also I did say that I was well aware of the movement of Jews into Israel from the surrounding Arab counties during the conflict

but then I'm not attempting to minimize their situation!

I have given references for the figures I quoted BB - perhaps you could do the same - regarding the situation of Palestinian Christians too?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 05:59 PM

I wish to apologize to the clone I was rude to. I had NOT recalled posting as Peace after the time Joe wrote that Guests were no longer allowed on the thread. My first `Peace` post was accidental, and the second was necessary.. That said, the clone might have pointed me to or quoted the post. Jeri suggested that I KNEW I wasn`t allowed to post as Guest. That just ain`t so. And, THAT said, I will reiterate:

SSDD

I thank Bobad for takin` care of business when I asked for his help, and I`m sorry if it caused you any difficulty, bobad. To my half dozen or so other friends, many thanks. I was NOT aware that I was breaking protocol--or orders from the top.

Guest,999

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 09:32 PM

"If Customs inspectors stop your ship, and come on board armed"

In International Waters, that is called Piracy, irrespective of what nation is trying to play God, and what term they wish to call their armed warriors - defending yourself with weapons is considered acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 09:37 PM

"The port was under blockade, and Israel has the right to prevent MORE illegal ( according to Geneva Convention)"

Once you start to claim "Geneva Convention protection for your actions", refusing to abide by all of them just makes you a hypocrite - also probably just another hypocritical bullying armed thug.

And you are thus also claiming now that this is legitimate "War" under International Conventions, so now there is no excuse to not apply the other proper appropriate Conventions, feeding, not starving civilians 'under your control', etc. :-)

Only a hypocrite wants (needs) it both ways....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 03:29 AM

"I guess my assumption that you hate Jews more than you care about people is true."
Can I just clear one point up before this sinks any deeper into the slime.
So far this thread has been refreshingly clear of anti-Semitism and has largely confined itself to discussing the actual events of the Palestine-Israeli conflict. This may be down to the vigilance of the site administrators keeping an eye on things, but I like to think that it is because the posters involved care about what is happening in Gaza and have no axe to grind, racist or otherwise.
I suppose it was inevitable that somebody should play the 'race card' - it is a despicable and cowardly way to debate and, to me, shows a paucity of arguments by those who pull such stunts.
Taken to its logical conclusion it means that we can never discuss Zimbabwe because Denis Mugabe is black, or it would make Iraq a no-go area because of the ethnic origins of Sadam Hussain.
Let's keep it clean and not let this become a slanging match or yet another closed thread-eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 03:49 AM

Jim,
"primitive rocket launchers against a well armed (nuclear) state strikes me as being defence, or at most, retaliation"

Defence or retalliation against nothing.
Israel was not attacking them with anything.
It had left Gaza, using its army to force out its own settlers.

The rockets were unprovoked, and were and are a war crime against civillian people.
Other means to stop them were tried and failed.
The incursion was a last resort, and you are wrong to say that civillians were targeted.

Israeli people were dying, and towns in range lived in a permanent state of terror.
What choice did they have?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 03:57 AM

You said I had taken flight.
You did not really challenge my last posts, and I had nothing to add.
I have no interest in sustaining this, unlike you.

Do we need to go back to the convoy?
The legality is disputed by some, but it is an argument for international lawyers.
Your are entitled to your own opinions, but that is all they are.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:34 AM

"Defence or retalliation against nothing."
Except forty-odd years of incursion into their land, illegal settlements, chemical weapons, killing and maiming of civilians, destruction of homes, attempts at starvation into submission, a Berlin-type wall, constant persecution and humiliation.... you name it.
"are wrong to say that civillians were targeted."
WHAT????
"I had nothing to add."
This has never stopped you on any of the threads you have contributed to in the past.
"Do we need to go back to the convoy?"
Bit of a turnaround - what!
It is usually you complaining that people should stick to the topic in hand, which in this case is....... an attack on a relief convoy by Israeli pirates.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:54 AM

"Defence or retalliation against nothing."
Except forty-odd years of incursion into their land....

Yes, the rocket attacks were to avenge historical grievances.
Today's children must die for yesterdays hate.
And you, the pacifist, support it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:30 AM

Sorry Keith - not being dragged into another of your blind alleys - you've had the arguments, so it's not worth repeating them because you only hear what you want to.
I read this morning that UK Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron is in trouble for describing Gaza as a "prison camp for its 1.5 million Palasinian inhabitants" and that the blockade must end.
Not a place I would usually go for political information or inspiration, but if Maggie Thatcher's party says it is unacceptible - things must be bad,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:09 AM

In the absence of any challenge I will take flight again.

Question to Emma and Foolestroupe. Do you think the rocketing of civillians is wrong, and should it stop?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:28 AM

"It had left Gaza, using its army to force out its own settlers."

Haha! They missed a massive number - they musta been hiding, what? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:32 AM

"Question to Emma and Foolestroupe. Do you think the rocketing of civilians is wrong, and should it stop?"

And the targeting of kids throwing stones at tanks being killed by bullets (just to mention ONE of the many endless atrocities against civilians too numerous to mention) is, and it should stop also.

Goodbye - at least till you come back...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:36 AM

"And you, the pacifist, support it. "

That's a disgusting gutter level smear.

A pacifist is unable to stop irrational war mongering rabid nutters like you by force - by definition, all he can do is try to engage them in rational discussion - which of course they always refuse.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:48 AM

"In the absence of any challenge I will take flight again."
Bye-eee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:12 AM

Foolestroupe, he does supportit, saying every little helps.
I find that shocking too.

Are you saying that they have not actually left Gaza, or some settlers remain?
They left completely long before the incursion (which was only a few days).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 10:32 AM

"Foolestroupe, he does supportit, saying every little helps."
You are somewhat overmilking this aren't you - not surprising, as you have very little else to offer.
As a pacifist I would not wish to be involved in killing - a personal choice that I would not wish to enforce on anybody else.
As a pragmatist I realise that without some sort of resistance Israel would have no hesitation in moving in on Gaza and moving the Palestinians out, with any means at their disposal.
Israel has resorted to heavily armed incursions into Gaza using tanks, planes and chemical weapons. The West has stood by and watched the (yet uncommented on by you) war crimes happen unopposed, apart from an occasional tut-tut, thanks to the economic and political influence wielded by Israel's supporters.
While I have no brief for Hamas, or any religion-driven organisation; (I believe the mixture of politics and religion to be a highly volatile one), and as pathetic as Hamas's opposition is, it does act as a stop-gap and keeps the eyes of the world on the fact that there is resistance. I believe it helps prevent a wholesale massacre of the type that Israel has proved itself more than capable of in the past (also uncommented on by you). As I said - every little helps - any resistance is better than none in this situation.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 10:40 AM

"Foolestroupe, he does supportit, saying every little helps."

You sir, are a twisting manipulating liar, or else you lack the ability to understand plain English!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 11:04 AM

I ask you Foolestroupe, is it wrong and should it stop?
Jim has answered both, with no. Long winded, but no.
No twisting. No lying.
If he meant yes let him say so.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 01:20 PM

Don't put words in my mouth.
The bombardment is a result of permanent terrorist persecution by the Israelis and will only stop when the Israelis cease that persecution.
The Israelis are the agressors and out-man and out-weapon the Palestinians.
If the Palestinians were to ceace their opposition the Israelis would undoubtably regards this as weakness and move in - and we know what could happen by their previos atrocities in Shatila and Sabra.
Of course the opposition is not good, but in the lighht of past atrocities by the Israelis it is the lesser by far of two evils.
Stop poncing off my ideas tio try and scor points over another member of this forum - THINK FOR YOURSELF OR CUT-N-PASTE SOMETHING.
You are a hypocrite in not even acknowledging the human rights abuses by the Israelis, let alone condemning them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 02:14 PM

You are a hypocrite in not even acknowledging the human rights abuses by the Palestinians, let alone condemning them.


Yet you keep saying you have the moral high ground.

SO, if it is OK to commit war crimes if one is invaded, Israel is let off the hook, and cannot be held any more accountable than you are holding the Palestinians.

Unless, against your denials, YOU are applying a different standard to one side than you do to the other- which most would determine is bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 03:18 PM

The two most consistent arguments in support of Israel's war crimes are listed at the bottom as quoted on this thread.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see where the hypocrites are.

Obviously, If one is saying that we should support Israel because they are better than the Palestinians, then Israel MUST be held to that standard. They need to be better than the Palestinians. They need to behave better and be more civilized.

On the other hand there is a second fallacy in Bruce's post. It gives some proof to opposition claims of collective punishment. Bruce is comparing the actions of violent fringes of Palestinian society to official actions of the Israeli government. Can he really be saying that as long as the worst Palestinian commits a crime, Israel has the right top commit and equal or worse crime in response.

That attitude is not only illogical. It is barbaric and uncivilized.

_________________________________

For a long, long time, Michaelr. Israel is the best friend we have in the mid-east. Probably the only one, actually.

DougR

------------------

Yet you keep saying you have the moral high ground.

SO, if it is OK to commit war crimes if one is invaded, Israel is let off the hook, and cannot be held any more accountable than you are holding the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 03:19 PM

I do not need to put words into your mouth Jim.
Your own words condemn you.
"As a pragmatist I realise that without some sort of resistance Israel would have no hesitation in moving in on Gaza and moving the Palestinians out, with any means at their disposal."

Israel moved out of Gaza completely.
The rockets increased.
You say they should still resist, and even though you claim to be a pacifist, you demand violent resistance.
Never mind that the shrapnel packed rockets are intended for ordinary, innocent people and their children.

I do not think Emma or Foolestroupe are with you on that Jim.
I think you are in a place on your own.

I have not and do not support Israel's abuses. I just seek balance.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 03:38 PM

The only balance will come when the Zionist's have been stopped in their quest to fulfill the prophecy of Israel stretching from Egypt to the Euphrates or when weapons of war are completely removed from their control.

I just wish my taxes were not putting weapons in their hands.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:49 PM

"Yet you keep saying you have the moral high ground."
Where?
"SO, if it is OK to commit war crimes if one is invaded, "
Where has anybody said that? some people, me included, have said that it is acceptable for people to defend themselves when attacked - it is the Israelis who have consistently committed war crimes (chemical (illegal) weapons, piracy, destruction of hospitals and schools...) and have refused to co-operate with the United Nations investigation team - why, if they've nothing to hide (unless, of course, they are all anti-Semits too)?
"I do not think Emma or Foolestroupe are with you on that Jim."
Once again you are parasiting on other people's ideas by claiming them as your own. Can't you speak for yourself? Emma and Foolstroop are articulate people who put forward their own ideas; if I disagree with them, I will say so (I don't see a great deal of conflict here), but they are both capable of speaking for themselves - you just echo what others say or bounce off what others have said - no original ideas - just like previous threads
"I have not and do not support Israel's abuses. I just seek balance."
Then why not acknowledge and condemn or excuse, if you can, the Shatila and Sabra massacres, the attacks on civilians, which you denied happened despite filmed and eye witness evidence, the chemical attacks on occupied townships, the destruction of hospitals and schools.....
"I think you are in a place on your own."
I suggest you count your supporters on this and the two previous threads and come back when you have a number. You and BB appear to be the only supporters or apologists of Israel's atrocities here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:21 PM

""Foolestroupe, he does supportit, saying every little helps.""

I took this wording to mean that _I_ support the madness. I do not support 'attacks', but one has to support 'defence' (pacifist or not!) - this does not mean that I see shooting live rounds at kids throwing rocks at tanks as a 'defence' - nor the said throwing of such rocks as an 'attack'!

To support aggression by one side while denying whatever poor 'retaliation' the victims of it can respond with very limited military force (throwing rocks!) to, IS hypocritical - just like the madmen in Ireland and their loony bigoted supporters carried on with.

Don't drag _ME_ into defending your losing argument with someone else!

The world is NOT just 'black and white' - it is shades of grey that you are unwilling to admit to, lest you feel that YOU could be wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:26 PM

"I ask you Foolestroupe, is it wrong and should it stop?"

QUOTE

"Question to Emma and Foolestroupe. Do you think the rocketing of civilians is wrong, and should it stop?"

And the targeting of kids throwing stones at tanks being killed by bullets (just to mention ONE of the many endless atrocities against civilians too numerous to mention) is, and it should stop also.
UNQUOTE

That was my plain and simple answer.

QUOTE
You sir, are a twisting manipulating liar, or else you lack the ability to understand plain English!
UNQUOTE


Go away!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:30 PM

"The only balance will come when the Zionist's have been stopped in their quest to fulfill the prophecy of Israel stretching from Egypt to the Euphrates or when weapons of war are completely removed from their control."

Well JTS, I have been known to say for many years, that it would just be much cheaper for the US to target a couple hundred megatons on that big rock in the centre and melt it into a huge glowing hole that would keep ALL people away for a few hundred thousand years... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 09:24 PM

"Question to Emma and Foolestroupe. Do you think the rocketing of civilians is wrong, and should it stop?"

It is NOT 'acceptable' for ANYONE to commit war crimes

The Goldstone report in a 547 page document stated unambiguously that both sides in the conflict during Operation Cast Lead had committed 'war crimes' and 'acts that were likely crimes against humanity' during the fighting in the Gaza Strip.

This investigation was headed by Richard Goldstone, the former chief prosecutor of the international courts for Yugoslavia and Rwanda, comprised three other experts in various fields, including international law and weapons and was based on nearly 200 interviews and over 20,000 pages of documents and photos.

The report clearly stated its belief that the Israeli military operation was "directed at the people of Gaza as a whole" to "punish" the population.
It cited incidents where food productions facilities, drinking water installations and other such sites were attacked, saying these might be "crimes against humanity."

Investigations, the report said, led the team to believe Israeli forces used human shields in certain cases, hospitals were attacked and civilians were shot while carrying white flags.

On the other hand the report also condemned Palestinian rocket fire into southern Israel which constituted "war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity" as the militants failed to distinguish between civilians and soldiers, causing "terror." but also added that Israel failed to protect its Arab citizens against the rocket fire in the same way that it protected its Jewish residents.


SO!
What was the response to the Goldstone report that concluded Palestinian factions were ALSO responsible for committing 'crimes against humanity'? ………………..

Now let's talk about 'balance' ............

The Jerusalem-based NGO Monitor predictably cast doubt as to the 'neutrality' of the Goldstone Commission on Gaza in much the same way it attempted to revile the Human Rights Watch group that reported critically on BOTH the firing of rockets from Gaza AND the use of White Phosphorus

Defence Minister Ehud Barak described it as "false, distorted, and irresponsible".

Maybe more predictably, Information Minister Yuli Edelstein called it "anti-Semitic.

Perhaps even more predictable was the infinite stream of ad hominem libel against its main author in a sustained effort to undermine the commissions findings, despite Israel's concerted non-cooperation with the commission and resistance to calls by Israeli and international human rights organisations for an independent Israeli investigation outside the military framework.

South African Judge Richard Goldstone, was also excoriated by leading members of the local Jewish community for chairing the commission.
He was told his commission's findings were lies; that he was naive and gullible for accepting the version of events given by terrorists; and that, since he is a Jew, he was a traitor to his people.

His critics were given support by Chief Rabbi Warren Goldstein, who chastised Goldstone for "doing great damage to the state of Israel". He should have recused himself instead, Goldstein said, and taken no part in the investigating mission.

Veteran journalist and political analyst Allister Sparks posed the question

"Goldstein is a trained lawyer as well as a rabbi. Did he mean that no Jew, however professionally disciplined — and Judge Goldstone's legal reputation is among the highest in the world — can be objective when it comes to a matter involving Israel?

And if so, does that involve Jews individually or collectively as well, or just the interests of the state of Israel?

Or did he mean that it is a Jewish person's inherent duty either to set aside his professional ethics and find in favour of the state of Israel regardless of the merits of a case or, if that is unacceptable, to recuse himself?
But that for a Jew to find against Israel is traitorous?"

Goldstone determined both sides had committed 'war crimes'

Israel initially completely denied any of its findings and instead substituted 'alternative' versions later proved to be fraudulent - critics were subsequently attacked as anti-semites or self-hating Jews -
there seems to be a pattern which was reflected in the reaction to the attack on the flotilla - to take us back to the start of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 02:08 AM

"Then why not acknowledge and condemn or excuse, if you can, the Shatila and Sabra massacres, the attacks on civilians, which you denied happened despite filmed and eye witness evidence, the chemical attacks on occupied townships, the destruction of hospitals and schools....."

The massacres were truly deplorable. Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them. They were disgraced by it.

I do not deny attacks on civillians but Israel does and the evidence is not there. Both sides do lie.

I do not know of any chemical attacks on townships. Please give details.

The destruction of schools and hospitals. The guilt is shared. Hamas chose to make civillian areas their battlefield for the shielding effect and the propaganda value of civillian casualties.
Israel should have shown even more restraint.

No unequivocal war crimes by Israel.
The rockets are. Also using civillians as shields is.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:49 AM

You have Emma's and Foolstroop's answer to your question Keith - more or less same as mine, and virtually everyone else's on this thread with the exception of a couple of rabid right wingers like yourself.
"The massacres were truly deplorable. Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them"
The Israelis participated in the massacres by providing the weapons and driving the actual perpetrators to the camps and then allowed the killers in - their role was an active, not a passive one - they shouldn't just have prevented them, they should not have participated in them, and should have punished the guilty people and not elected the one chiefly responsible Prime Minister.
"I do not deny attacks on civillians...."
Make up your mind Keith - you said or you didn't say "you are wrong to say that civillians were targeted." earlier; what's it to be?
"No unequivocal war crimes by Israel."
Then they should have no problem in participating in any enquiries along with the UN team, rather than insisting on holding their own (and finding themselves not guilty (once again). The history of this conflict is a long list of war crimes committed against civilians.
"I do not know of any chemical attacks on townships."
I assume you are continuing to re-define 'chemical weapons - been there, done that - read the thread - you and Brucie are the only ones denying that the weapons used are chemical - and you have a list of their effects on human beings.
"The guilt is shared. Hamas chose to make civillian...."
Been there also - even if this were true, and not used as an excuse to terrorise non-combatants - NO CIVILISED SOCIETY PARTICIPATES IN OR ALLOWS THE KILLING OR THE ENDANGERING OF THE LIVES OF HOSTAGES.
As bad as the rockets may be - and they're a pinprick compared to the military might of the Israeli weaponry used on civilians throughout this conflict, they are the only defence the Palestinians have to Israeli agression - what opposition would you propose in their place, or do you suggest that they surrender outright - and lay themselves open to further destruction of their homes, hospitals and schools, become refugees, move into camps, and are treated to repeats of past massacres?
You are, in effect, demanding the surrender of the Palestinians to Israeli demands. They could not rely on International protection as the most powerful countries, notebly the US have refused to act on their behalf, will continue to do so while they are under the thumb of Israeli supporters, and tend to be very free with their veto in the UN whenever action is proposed which runs contrary to their interests. They cannot go to the UN as the Israelis have refused to participate even in an enquiry on human rights abuses (they can afford to - they hold the nuclear threat).
As I said - you are demanding their outright surrender to a terrorist state - have I got that right?
A small thing - not trying to score points, just a persistant irritant - 'civilians' only has one 'l'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 04:19 AM

Make up your mind Keith - you said or you didn't say "you are wrong to say that civilians were targeted." earlier; what's it to be?

You are wrong to say it without clear evidence. I do not deny it, but it seems unlikely as Israel would gain nothing from it and suffer a propaganda defeat.

No country in the world regards wp smoke as a chemical weapon. Mudcat opinions hardly count.
Why single out Israel alone?

I do not demand Palestinian surrender.
It was Hamas rocketing that led to the incursion and all the consequent suffering. It would never have happened.
If Hamas renounced violence and recognised Israel, conflict would cease and a negotiations begin. Also there would be no blockade.

You have just said "bad as the rockets are"
I see that as a breakthrough and bringing us closer in our views. I do not understand how they can be said to be defencive though. Can you explain that?

Thanks for the spelling correction. Me a teacher too. The shame.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:19 AM

Firstly you have denied it and I included your having done so as a quote.
There is filmed evidence of Israeli attacks on civilians and the destruction of their homes; this was included in the BBC documentary on the incursion into Gaza, persistantly on news footage - (unless the UK has a news blackout on the subject - which I very much doubt, as BBC's has been the fairest and most comprehensive of all reporting). I would again recommend the harrowing 'Occupation 101 - Voices of the Silenced Majority (winner of 8 film festival awards), a comprehensive account of the whole conflict. We got our copy at a public screening by some of the people who were due to set off on the Rachel Corry relief ship the following week. The evidence is only not available if you do not wish to find it.
"No country in the world regards wp smoke as a chemical weapon"
Look at the definition and dispute it if you can.
If you mean the US does not recognise it as a chemical weapon - they describe the killing of civilians as 'collateral damage' and torture as 'extreme rendition' - they tend to have a way with words when it suits them. Your argument is a facilile one and whatever side of the fence you happen to fall on, the description of the effects on phosphorus remain exactly the same. It is these that the arguments should be centred on, not the diversionary what name it is given. The use of phosphorus is prohibited in populated areas; Israel was aware of this to the extent that they denied its use until they were faced with contrary evidence and admittted it; it is only you apologists who continue to attempt to divert the attention from it.
"Why single out Israel alone?"
I seem to remember discussing its use in Fallujah further up this thread - anyway, the subject on hand is Israel's atrocities.
"I do not understand how they can be said to be defencive though"
They are the only opposition to Israeli agression - you have not suggested an alternative, therefore the only option on hand is surrender.
"If Hamas renounced violence and recognised Israel, conflict would cease and a negotiations begin. Also there would be no blockade."
As the main aim of Israel is the acquisition of territory, I very much doubt that. It is Palestinian opposition to agression that will bring Israel to the conference table, not surrender - life appears to be like that everywhere unfortunately (including Ireland btw).
Why is it you always attempt to minimise israeli war crimes?
In your last posting you said of Shatila and Sabra "Israeli forces should have acted to prevent them" giving the impression that their only crime was inaction; surely you knew the extent of their participation in them? You adopt a similar stance on chemical weapons.
And now you remain silent on the killing of hostages - argument by ignoring the awkward bits seems to be your favoured technique.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:38 AM

In your quote I did not deny civilian attacks.
I am not convinced of them but do not deny.
Obviously there were civilian casualties and damage. I would need evidence that it was deliberate targeting of civilians. What purpose?
Why not just attack those fighting back, of whom there were plenty?

Chemical Weapons.
It is not just USA. All armed forces use WP including those who have signed every chemical weapons treaty.
No country in the world classes WP as a chemical weapon, (or WP smoke as a weapon at all) so why should Israel?

Human shields in battle is not the same as a hostage situation.
You do not have to give up the battle because the enemy is using them.
The rules say you must give warnings and Israel complied with that.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:43 AM

"They are the only opposition to Israeli agression - you have not suggested an alternative, therefore the only option on hand is surrender."

Prior to the incursion there was no agression by Israel against Gaza.
Even the blockade was only a response to the rockets and other attacks from Gaza.
Killing civilians in Sderot is not defending you from anything.
It is just killing and unequivocally a war crime

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 06:05 AM

"Prior to the incursion there was no agression by Israel against Gaza."

Oh my God - my head hurts - is he really stupid or should I start believing the conspiracy theory that he is a dupe/secret agent trying to brainwash us....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 06:07 AM

Keith you have admitted to not reading my posts as, because I attempt to answer your continual repetitive questioning of evidence in some depth, you clain they are too long except to pick out the 'salient points'

Well here is one 'salient point' you seem to have omitted from my last post

The Goldstone commision accused Israeli forces of using Palestinian human shields during its invasion of Gaza, a breach of the Geneva conventions that prohibit intentionally putting civilian lives at risk; this practice has also been used (and filmed) in Nablus in the West Bank after the Israeli court specifically banned the tactic.


There is also the question of who is a 'combatant' who is a 'civilian'

An article in the Guardian 5 Jan 2009 reported -

"...when an Israeli military spokesman also says things like "anything affiliated with Hamas is a legitimate target," things get complicated.

The International Committee of the Red Cross - guardian of the Geneva Conventions on which international humanitarian law is based - defines a combatant as a person "directly engaged in hostilities".

But Israeli Defence Forces spokesman Captain Benjamin Rutland told the BBC: "Our definition is that anyone who is involved with terrorism within Hamas is a valid target. This ranges from the strictly military institutions and includes the political institutions that provide the logistical funding and human resources for the terrorist arm."

Philippe Sands, Professor of International Law at University College London, says he is not aware of any Western democracy having taken so broad a definition.

"Once you extend the definition of combatant in the way that IDF is apparently doing, you begin to associate individuals who are only indirectly or peripherally involved… it becomes an open-ended definition, which undermines the very object and purpose of the rules that are intended to be applied."

PROTOCOL 1 OF THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS - QUOTED BY ISRAEL, ALTHOUGH NOT SIGNED BY IT - SAYS THAT FOR A SITE TO BE A LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGET IT MUST "MAKE AN EFFECTIVE CONTRIBUTION TO MILITARY ACTION" AND ITS DESTRUCTION OR NEUTRALISATION MUST ALSO OFFER "A DEFINITE MILITARY ADVANTAGE".

Israel says it has bombed mosques because they are used to store weapons, releasing video of the air strikes which it says shows secondary explosions as its proof.

But it gives no evidence for its claims that laboratories at the Islamic University, which it bombed heavily, were used for weapons research

....on its targeting of the education, interior and foreign ministries and the parliament building, Israel simply argues they are part of the Hamas infrastructure – and there is no difference between its political and military wings."

The Israel-based Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, charged Hamas with methodically building its military infrastructure in the heart of population centers - againt this depends on the definition of 'military infrastructure'

The first wave of bombings, targeted police stations across Gaza, one strike killed at least 40 trainees on parade.
The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, said it appears those killed were being trained in first aid, human rights and maintaining public order.

A money changers office was deliberately injuring a boy living on the floor above based on the claim that the money changers were involved in "the transfer of funds for terrorist activities".

Operation Cast Lead left between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinians dead (most of them civilian) - and 13 Israelis killed (3 of these by an 'errant IDF tank shell')

THE LEGAL CONCEPT OF PROPORTIONALITY. DEMANDS THAT THE MILITARY GAIN OF A PARTICULAR OPERATION BE PROPORTIONAL TO THE LIKELY OR ACTUAL CIVILIAN LOSSES INCURRED IN CARRYING IT OUT.

The difference in civilian casualties in the Gaza war is stark compared with 18 Israelis from rocket fire since 2001.

"Witnesses and analysts confirm that Hamas fires rockets from within populated civilian areas, and all sides agree that the movement flagrantly violates international law by targeting civilians with its rockets.

But while B'Tselem's Ms Montell describes the rocket fire as a "blatant war crime", she adds: "I certainly would not expect my government to act according to the standard Hamas has set for itself - we demand a higher standard." - source as above


p.s.
"No country in the world regards wp smoke as a chemical weapon."

Please don't start this personal 'smokescreen' again Keith - time after time after time you have been advised that WP is internationally defined as an 'incendiary WEAPON' and by the US as a 'chemical weapon' when it wished to demonstrate the use of such weapons by Saddam

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 06:20 AM

Apologies for a correction - the article quoted above was from the BBC news and not the Guardian as I stated

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 10:37 AM

"In your quote I did not deny civilian attacks. I am not convinced of them but do not deny. I would need evidence that it was deliberate targeting of civilians"
Yes you did deny it - now you are disputing your own statements. What is there not to believe - don't they have televisions in Hertford or did the cameramen fake them and lie about what they were. Were the UN observers lying in their accounts, or the doctors in the hospitals that were shelled, or the teachers who had to herd the children to relative safety while the barrages were taking place? Were the newspapers lying. Come on!!!
"Prior to the incursion there was no agression by Israel against Gaza."
The Shatila and Sabra massacres took place in 1982 - Israel had already provided the world with proof of their ability to slaughter anybody who got in their way, refugees, civilians, aid workers, you name it , they'll targate them - or don't these count?
"No country in the world classes WP as a chemical weapon, (or WP smoke as a weapon at all) so why should Israel"
You are using diverionary tactics again - you have the effect of these weapons, they are banned for use in residential areas = Israel committing war crimes.
And once again you are trivialising the effect these weapons have on human beings - the ones that appeared in the documentary on the incursion, or the ones shown with the artical on Fallujah, along with the US soldier's description of the horrific injuries; ort maybe this biologist's account
"A biologist in Fallujah, Mohamad Tareq, interviewed for the film, says: "A rain of fire fell on the city, the people struck by this multi-coloured substance started to burn, we found people dead with strange wounds, the bodies burned but the clothes intact"
What kind of person are you that can excuse this in support of a terrorist state?
Can I suggest you grit your teeth, stop feigning goldfish concentration syndrome and read some contributions of more that a couple of paragraphs, particularly Emmas - if you haven't got the humanity to admit Israel's war crimes, at least have the good manners to read what sshe has to say; she's obviously gone to a great deal of trouble searching out her information to answer your 'challenges. Nobody is going to tailor their arguments to suit conveniently acquires dyslexia.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:20 PM

If I am not denying attacks on civilians, but I am not convinced they have been deliberately targeted. I think you are too easy to convince.
No agression prior to incursion.
I know there has been conflict there for ever. I meant since Israel withdrew its settlers and forces from Gaza.
That could and should have been the end of conflict there.
The attacks from Gaza were unprovoked.

Chemical weapons.
Sadaam did use chemical weapons. Poison gas.
Whatever any of us may think, ALL ARMED FORCES USE WP INCLUDING ALL THOSE WHO HAVE SIGNED EVERY CHEMICAL WEAPONS TREATY.
WP is not recognised as CW for all its nasty effects.
Israel's weapons were legal, and had it signed all the treaties they still would have been.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:21 PM

Sorry, delete first word "If"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:45 PM

Keith,

They were using White Phospherous on one of the most densely populated strips of land on earth.

They used cluster bombs and land mines on farmland in south Lebanon.

They often use collective punishment.

The very definition of the current blockade is collective punishment.

Why blockade luxury goods if not to punish the population for voting for Hamas?

All of the above are war crimes.

Why level so many buildings then blockade building materials?

Yes concrete can be used build bunkers. But obviously those bunkers are only useful against massed military attacks. the government of Israel may have a right to defend its population, but the "right" they now defend and claim, the "right" to blockade to maximize the possibility of unfettered attack is beyond absurd.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 01:04 PM

"Even the blockade was only a response to the rockets and other attacks from Gaza."

You are obviously not entirely up to date with the ststements from the Israeli government Keith


Immediately after Israeli commandos killed nine volunteers on a Turkish-organized Gaza aid flotilla, Israel again reiterated its claim that the aim in blockading Gaza was to stop the flow of terrorist arms into Gaza - presumably only achieved by stopping the import of ginger, paper, vegetables, musical instruments and the fabric required for the production of diapers and not allowing the export of vegetables and other means of economic survival etc out

"However, in response to a recent lawsuit by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group, the Israeli government has now explained the blockade as an exercise of the right of economic warfare.

"A country has the right to decide that it chooses not to engage in economic relations or to give economic assistance to the other party to the conflict, or that it wishes to operate using 'economic warfare,'"

The Israeli government also took an additional step and said the economic warfare is intended to achieve a political goal a government spokesman commenting that authorities will continue to 'ease' the blockade but "could not lift the embargo altogether as long as Hamas remains in control" of Gaza"

Information from McClatchy website June 9, 2010 "Israeli document: Gaza blockade isn't about security"

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 02:11 PM

Jack and Emma, I told Carol much earlier in thread that i do not support the blockade, but it is usual for warring states to blockade.
Hamas chose to make war on Israel and israel imposed a blockade. Some people say blockade is collective punishment, but it has always been a legitimate tactic in war. The concept of collective punishment was never intended to cover it.

I remember the cluster bombs in Lebanon, and the civilian casualties caused by unexploded bomblets.
It was argued with some justification that they should be treated as land mines because of that. Are you sure that Israel ever used them again? In Gaza?

They used white phosphorus smoke munitions in gaza. We have argued about it here. I acknowledge civilian casualties were caused, but not that civilians were targeted. It was to screen their soldiers from the enemy.

It would be better if Hamas did not choose to engage Israel from within Gaza City.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:29 PM

I really don't see the point of carrying this any further with Keith.
You say that my attitude to the bombardment is Creepy (or some such word - can't be bothered)
Your attitude to this is creepy to me in one respect.
It closely resembles every argument I have ever had or read on holocaust denial.
You present a holocaust denier with concentration camps - they didn't exist and were made up (eye witness accounts and photographs - lies and fakes).
Present you with phosphorus bombing and the deaths and injuries caused - didn't happen they were smoke bombs (eye withness evidence and photographs ignored).
Present them with the anihilation of millions of human beings - the natural casualities of wartime conditions.
Present you with civilian casualities and deaths - the natural casualties of war.
When people like Emma or Foolstroop present information, you refuse to read it because it's 'too long', and they are deliberately trying to blind you with science - pretty much as you did with me on the Unionist Marches thread.
Everything else is either ignored or flatly denied - never disproved. Your ignorance of all the subjects I have encountered you on is monumental - you argue without proof, picking up on what others put
forward rather than producing knowledge and understanding of your own.
In an odd way I can understand holocaust deniers - If I supported an political ideal or a national leadership who did the things the Nazis did, I would want it not to be true; I would want to persuade people (and myself) that those I had put my trust in and given my support to could not possibly have done the things they were accused of doing.
I don't begin to understand where you are coming from.
You have spoken up fin support of three of the most inhuman and degrading subjects I know - the massacre of unarmed demonstrators in Derry, the causes of sectarian violence, and now Israeli fascism. You argue as if it's a ego-boosting, point scoring game.
I've finished arguing with you Keith - come back when you've got something to contribute and when you are prepared to consider and respond top the arguments of others.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 04:17 PM

I suspect that Jim Carroll is onto something here.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:39 PM

Not creepy.
Only thread creep.
I said i was shocked by your attitude to the rockets.
Every little counts means good, and more would be better.
I am glad you have now called them bad.

"never disproved"
Of course I can not disprove deliberate attacks on civilians.
You can not prove such a negative.
There is no proof either way or the debate would not go on, and I do not just mean on Mudcat.
I keep an open mind. You all close yours and just heed the propaganda of one side.

We must accept we will never agree.
I do agree further discussion is futile.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:54 PM

"I am glad you have now called them bad." "You all close yours and just heed the propaganda of one side."
To the end you go down trying to score egotistical points.
"I do agree further discussion is futile."
No Keith - discussion WITH YOU is futile - I am more than happy to continue debating with anybody else - they listen and are prepared to consider and debate the arguments of others.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 08:51 PM

"...it is usual for warring states to blockade"

I am not interested in 'scoring points' just at least maintaining some accuracy - I prefer to make up my own mind about the Hasbara machine's propaganda.

Please note!

GAZA IS NOT A STATE!
this has far greater implications legally than just a correction of an inaccurate statement on a mudcat thread


Gaza was occupied by Israel in 1967 and, under customary international law, Israel has been the occupier of the strip since.
Despite ending their physical occupation of the Gaza Strip in 2005 when they withdrew Israel still maintained "effective control" over the Gaza Strip through control of its land borders (the Apartheid Wall), air space and of course, sea lanes.

It has the security advantage of effective control which it has exercised through incursions, the creation of buffer zones within the strip, routine aerial attacks etc.

BUT, it has simultaneously denied the obligations which come along with occupation; the main one which is upholding the well-being of the civilian population.


The international legal framework which is most appropriate for assessing Israel's obligations is the Fourth Geneva Convention, to which Israel is a party to.

Part 1 Article 55 of the IV Geneva Convention clearly states:

To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population; it should, in particular, bring in the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate.

From the San Remo San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea

Part IV : Methods and means of warfare at sea

SECTION II : METHODS OF WARFARE

Blockade

102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or

(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

103. IF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION OF THE BLOCKADED TERRITORY IS INADEQUATELY PROVIDED WITH FOOD AND OTHER OBJECTS ESSENTIAL FOR ITS SURVIVAL, THE BLOCKADING PARTY MUST PROVIDE FOR FREE PASSAGE OF SUCH FOODSTUFFS AND OTHER ESSENTIAL SUPPLIES…


The bottom line is that the legality of the blockade- which has, by the admission of the Israeli government itself, the purpose of "putting the Gazans on a diet", is in fact illegal under these laws because it is designed specifically to cause collective suffering throughout the entire populace.

Additionally, Israel is not letting supplies through freely after inspection- it is in fact seizing those supplies and letting the vast majority of them rot, like the clothing and shoes that were held up for 3 years - obviously because they threatened Israel's security!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 03:09 AM

You should try discussing with me before giving up Jim.
You say Israel used illegal weapons.
I point out that all countries have them including liberal demacracies like Norway,Sweden, Canada, New Zealand,...
You can not reply, so liken me to a holocaust denier instead.
Jack says they used cluster bombs in Gaza.
I ask for confirmation.
Nothing, except agreement with Jim about me being like a holocaust denier.
You say they target civilians.
I point out that an agressive enemy was fighting them from among those civilians so how can you be sure.
You can not answer so say it is futile.

Emma, whatever Gaza is, it is at war with Israel.
Israel is careful to abide by the letter of the law on blockades.
It does let humanitarian stuff in and enough food to prevent starvation.
You can say it is not enough. I can agree, but the legality is a matter for lawyers.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 05:47 AM

2 reports from today's Irish newspapers:
Dunnes Stores:
Dunnes, the Irish Supermarket chain has received a petition from The Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign bearing 6,000 names, requesting that it stop stocking Israeli products becausee of its polices on Palestine.
IPSC chairperson Freda Hughes said all supermarkets selling Israeli goods would eventually be targeted, but Dunnes had been chosen to start the campaign because of the historical significance of the anti-apartheid strike in the 1980s.
Parallels were drawn between the apartheid regime and the State of Israel.
"Just as South African forces shot and killed their own people in Sharpville and Uitenhage, so do the Israeli military adopt a shoot-to-kill policy".

Jerusalem:
Israeli settlers took over a Palestinian home in Jerusalem's Old City yesterday, evicting about 44 members of an extended family who had occupied the building for more than 70 years.
The settlerrs said they had bought the building.
The Palestinians were challenging the takeover in court. They had rented the building since 1938 and had won two previous court cases challenging eviction orders.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 06:35 AM

Keith - this is YOUR method of 'discussion'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:45 PM

Keith,
They were using White Phospherous on one of the most densely populated strips of land on earth.

They used cluster bombs and land mines on farmland in south Lebanon.

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 02:11 PM

I remember the cluster bombs in Lebanon, and the civilian casualties caused by unexploded bomblets.
Are you sure that Israel ever used them again? In Gaza?

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 03:09 AM

Jack says they used cluster bombs in Gaza.
I ask for confirmation.

Nobody, NOBODY in this thread has said that cluster bombs were used in Gaza!

You do this ALL the time Keith

This is NOT 'discussion' in any meaning of the word I'm aware of

You are just so damn anxious to get your 'point scoring' in that you consistently fail to read what people actually say and, as you have been frequently - and accurately - accused, put words in people's mouths.

This, of course, drives people to frustration and simply accepting there is no point in any further attempts at normal debate - at which point you have 'won' haven't you?

I care deeply about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and I'm not prepared to use the situation to indulge in this kind of 'game playing'

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 06:57 AM

"I care deeply about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza"
You're wasting your time Emma - you are talking to somebody who doesn't.
Why not find a convenient wall to talk to, you'll probably get a more intelligent response.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:09 AM

I made a mistake about the cluster bombs.
Thank you for pointing it out Emma.
Jack, I am sorry for what I said.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:16 AM

Jim, you quoted me,
"I am glad you have now called them bad." "You all close yours and just heed the propaganda of one side."
and added,
"To the end you go down trying to score egotistical points."

If it is egotistical to be open minded, questioning and sceptical, then I plead guilty.
What words describe someone who just swallows anything Hamas claims?
Naive? Gullible? Dupe? (Can you give a single Hamas claim you question?)

I was glad you called the rocketing of Israeli civilians bad.
Previously you described it as good. That is what "every little helps" means after all.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 10:23 AM

"It would be better if Hamas did not choose to engage Israel from within Gaza City. "

Well, where the bloody hell are they supposed to 'engage them from' - bloody Poland?

!!!! They'd probably LOVE to do that, if the Israelis would let them LEAVE GAZA, WHICH IS WHERE THEY LIVE, anyway..... sigh....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 10:53 AM

"I was glad you called the rocketing of Israeli civilians bad."
You continue to distort the meaning of what I said despite the fact that I have clarified my position on the subject of the bombardment on at least three seperate occasions - point-scoring to the point of obsession.
This malicious method of distortion on your part is typical of your style of 'debating' on every thread I have encountered you on.
You have deliberately attempted to misrepresent what I and others have said on this thread, which serves only to underline perfectly why responding to you is a total waste of time.
Why involve yourself in a debate on something you neither understand nor care enough to discuss honestly?
Please leave me out of your sick deliberations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 11:21 AM

Foolestroupe, Gaza City is urban and densely populated.
Not all of Gaza is, but that is where the rockets mostly come from and where Hamas fighters operate from.
Israel entered Gaza to try to stop the rockets.
Where should they have gone after the war criminals, Poland?
(Sigh)

Jim, "bad as they are" means "they are bad", just as "every little helps" means "they are good but more would be better"

Why write such stuff if you mean something else?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 11:54 AM

Emma, I know you care deeply.
You should not presume to have the monopoly on caring.
Wanting to see past the propaganda and lies of both sides is not absence of feeling.
We should be able to have some friendly banter across the barricades too.

Further debate with me really will be futile for the next couple of days, as I will be off line.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 01:20 PM

I repeat - leave me out of your sick mind-games.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 01:28 PM

'A "loaded question", like a loaded gun, is a dangerous thing. A loaded question is a question with a false or questionable presupposition, and it is "loaded" with that presumption.

Since a question is not an argument, simply asking a loaded question is not (in itself) a fallacious argument although fallacious arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure the logical argument,'

Rather, loaded questions such as you continually pose Keith are typically used to trick someone into implying something they did not intend and I am inclined to agree with Jim that attempts at debate against such tactics are futile

You ask
"What words describe someone who just swallows anything Hamas claims?"

The thing is Keith - it's not 'Hamas claims' that are being discussed here but evidence from various sources including human rights groups, witnesses to UN commissions, and IDF soldiers themselves.

The only appropriate response to such a question - containing as it does the implication that the people disagreeing with you are merely acting as mouthpieces for Hamas - is not to answer it directly, but to either refuse to answer or to reject the question..

But the 'game' demands that any refusal to answer these loaded questions is some kind of admission that you have 'won'

"Wanting to see past the propaganda and lies of both sides is not absence of feeling"
"You all close your (minds) and just heed the propaganda of one side"

Keith I will once more point out to you that much of what has been posted here has come not from 'one side' as you fallaciously put it but from the UN and a number of human rights organizations from both inside and outside Israel

The use of air fired WP shells bombarding Gaza City, for example, has not only been recorded on film, observed in the horrific burns and deaths of civilian victims, confirmed by some IDF soldiers themselves and even admitted (finally) in the Israeli press

But you continue to regurgitate the Hasbara line which has now apparently taken an interesting twist by claiming, as the American abused this weapon in Fallujah, they have no right to criticize Israel for its use in densely populated areas in Gaza


"Hamas chose to make civillian areas their battlefield for the shielding effect and the propaganda value of civillian casualties."

This is an example of your claim to be the only person 'Wanting to see past the propaganda'?

The Gaza citizens, whether they support Hamas or not - and enough people did to democratically vote them into power while 56% of the population are children and unable to vote - live alongside members of the Hamas government in much the same way that people in other countries are neighbours of their local elected representatives.....

Yeah! ….futile.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 02:41 PM

It would appear the supporters of Israel are members of the "melt the skin off children" lobby, if this article from an American newspaper is anything to go by.
This is what the Israelis used in heavily populated Gaza - what the apologists are supporting by lying about its effects and dening that it is illegal to use it in residential areas.
Jim Carroll.

An account of the use of White phosphorus in Fallujah from an American report of the battle and its aftermath.

"We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
Mr. D also points to a comment on Altercation.com, that provides further ammunition – for "illumination purposes" – on the effect of white phosphorous on human beings. There, Mark Kraft writes: "There is no way you can use white phosphorus like that without forming a deadly chemical cloud that kills everything within a tenth of a mile in all directions from where it hits. Obviously, the effect of such deadly clouds weren't just psychological in nature."
Another Kossack, "Hunter," digs up mention of Willy Pete use as a weapon in Washington Post reports from the battlefield itself last November. He then takes on the hair-splitters who immediately arose on the Right to declare that white phosphorous is not itself a banned substance, so it's OK to incinerate children with it. Hunter's incandescant irony is worth quoting at length:
"First, I think it should be a stated goal of United States policy to not melt the skin off of children. As a natural corollary to this goal, I think the United States should avoid dropping munitions on civilian neighborhoods which, as a side effect, melt the skin off of children.
You can call them 'chemical weapons' if you must, or far more preferably by the more proper name of 'incendiaries.' The munitions may or may not precisely melt the skin off of children by setting them on fire; they do melt the skin off of children, however, through robust oxidation of said skin on said children, which is indeed colloquially known as 'burning'…
"And I know it is true, there is some confusion over whether the United States was a signatory to the Do Not Melt The Skin Off Of Children part of the Geneva conventions, and whether or not that means we are permitted to melt the skin off of children, or merely are silent on the whole issue of melting the skin off of children…[However] I am going to come out, to the continuing consternation of Rush "Drug Rehab" Limbaugh and pro-war supporters everywhere, as being anti-children-melting, as a matter of general policy."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:16 PM

"Foolestroupe, Gaza City is urban and densely populated.
Not all of Gaza is, but that is where the rockets mostly come from"

You are so self brain washed that you cannot see that you may in fact need medical, if not philosophical/rhetorical help.

The films released by the 'freedom fighters' as they call themselves, show them launching these weapons from open fields.

"where the rockets mostly come from"

... but the invisible magic sky fairly who whispers your lines in your ear knows bette, obviously.....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:25 PM

WP - it does NOT matter HOW (or for what reason you CLAIM) you release the chemical white phosphorous into the air, if it contacts human flesh - or indeed almost any organic substance, it 'melts' it by 'oxidation' - it 'sucks' the chemical oxygen out of the organic material by chemical reaction, thus breaking down the flesh. This usually kills the victim.

It's just a slower form of napalm, really. And just as 'humane', too.

You might as well spray napalm around a battlefield, claiming that you are only using it for illumination purposes, and that the smoke form its burning will form smoke screens.

'shake and bake' - The US has traditionally provided 'military advisors' for certain countries in the Middle East....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 02:26 PM

Keith,

Thank you for the apology but I don't think you are getting what is said to you. You imply that you had been open minded all along in the post IMMEDIATELY after admitting that you did not read what I was saying.

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF BEING OPEN MINDED is informing ones self in an objective way. YOU NEED TO PAY ATTENTION to what others are saying.

You also need to try to follow the logic of what is being said and try to gather a few basic facts.

>>>Foolestroupe, Gaza City is urban and densely populated.
Not all of Gaza is, but that is where the rockets mostly come from and where Hamas fighters operate from.<<<

All of the Gaza Strip, according to the CIA fact book is 2 times the Area of Washington DC. The population of Gaza is 1.6 million, about 3 times the population of Washington. Any way you cut it Gaza is densely populated. I've never been to Gaza but I've been to Washington, it is very densely populated. Imagining putting 1.5 times as many people into the same area make my head hurt.

But you said this, "but that is where the rockets mostly come from and where Hamas fighters operate from." referring to Gaza City which you are implying is far more more populated than Gaza as a whole. By your logic that makes Gaza City far more heavily populated than Washington.

You claim that the WP was used by the IDF as a smoke screen.

The WP was fired from 155 mm howitzers in airbursts according to the IDF, which until the Attack on Gaza was over refused to admit any use, over positions from which they claim Gaza Militants were firing.

Isn't a smoke screen, meant to hide positions, supposed to be between you and the opposition or over you to hide your troops not over them obscuring them?

The intended use of the WP in the attack on Gaza was clearly to burn buildings and people. It fell on refugee camps, schools, UN compounds and aide. It is a very imprecise and destructive weapon. Using it in a place many times more populated than Washington DC can have only one clear military use, general destruction of civilians and civilian infrastructure. In the context of an occupation, this is clearly a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 05:26 PM

Jack, I should read every word of every post very carefully, but remember I am mostly answering four of you on my own, and there are some very, very long posts being produced. And now Jim has even started producing copies of Emma's very long posts from just a few days ago!
Jack, I thought your post was all about Gaza, which is at least in the subject of this thread. I know Jim had already tried to thread creep it into Lebanon, having already crept it away from the aid convoy, but I missed that you also had added in Lebanon and I said sorry.

My original reply was completely relevant as I pointed out they had never used cluster bombs since. They would have been devastatingly effective in Gaza had they really wanted to kill civilians.

I will respond to the other posts later.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM

Any open-minded comment on the air attack on the residential area of a coastal city 7 miles north of Gaza Keith? Miraculously no casualties, just homes damaged, and they don't count I suppose (but neither does human life to Keith), but I'm sure they'll try harder next time.
This thread was about Israel's act of piracy and has developed into a general discussion on its inhumanity - not a thread-creep, just a logical development - it happens on many threads (unless people like you manage to confine it to their narrow band of perceived knowledge).
Sorry about repeating your information Emma - I really didn't notice, there were plenty of other acts of inhumanity I could have chosen - google Chemical Weapon Attacks Keith.
I did request that you left me out of your mind-games.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 07:43 PM

"I should read every word of every post very carefully" "there are some very, very long posts being produced. And now Jim has even started producing copies of Emma's very long posts from just a few days ago!"

1) if you skim/ignore stuff, it affects your ability to consider the whole matter with an open mind...

2) When you start denying/ignoring relevant information, some people may think that repeating it is helpful for you... see also 1) ...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Aug 10 - 07:49 PM

"would have been devastatingly effective in Gaza had they really wanted to kill civilians."

But trying to do it all at once in a hurry, got a previous nasty man in lots of hot water.... so remember the old saying "just a little every day, gets the job done" ... :-0

Just watching the other day news footage (We Aussies have SBS TV which shows news/current affairs from many overseas countries - with subtitles) of patrolling IDF forces randomly shooting up farmers trying to work their fields next to the 'giant prison fence' circling their country where their family has lived for as many generations as they can remember.... the IDF doesn't even CARE if they can see filming international news media with them...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:54 AM

So Jim pays even less attention to Emma's long posts than I do!
(I recognised it at once).
Will you all be remonstrating with him about that?

Jim,
"Any open-minded comment on the air attack on the residential area of a coastal city 7 miles north of Gaza Keith? Miraculously no casualties, just homes damaged, and they don't count I suppose (but neither does human life to Keith), but I'm sure they'll try harder next time."
It was a rocket, not air, attack on the Israeli city of Ashkelon Jim.
A shameful unprovoked attack on civilians.

An air attack was in response to that shrapnel packed rocket that landed among family homes.

No rocket, no air attack. Hamas agression to blame again.
BBC said this about it.

The strikes came after a rocket fired from the coastal enclave by militants earlier on Friday hit the Israeli city of Ashkelon on the Mediterranean coast.

That attack caused no casualties but damaged a building and cars in the city, 12km (7 miles) north of Gaza.

Hamas - the Islamist group which controls the territory - named the dead militant as Issa Batran, 42 - a commander of the group's military wing in central Gaza and a rocket maker.

The military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, said eight other Hamas supporters and three civilians were also injured in air strikes on a Hamas military training camp in Gaza City, smuggling tunnels along the Gaza-Egypt border and a target outside a central Gaza refugee camp.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10824909

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 04:17 AM

Thank you for your adaptation of a news report on yet another attack on civilians, which you said were not happening.
The next tottering step on your part will be to admit that the Israelis are deliberately targeting civilians as a terror tactic. Rocket attacks on smugglers tunnels are totally ineffective, so intimidation can be their only motive.
The attacks in Gaza were targeted on a training camp for medical workers, by the way - another peep at Israili humanity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 04:42 AM

Jim, you asked me, "Any open-minded comment on the air attack on the residential area of a coastal city 7 miles north of Gaza Keith? "

That was a Hamas attack on ordinary families in Ashkelon.
I gave you my open minded opinion. Can we have yours now?

The Israeli reply was targeted on Hamas fighters.
Who says it was a medical establishment? Hamas? Must be true then, right.
Hamas also announced the loss of a number of fighters, and a rocket maker.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 05:03 AM

The Reuter report carried in The Irish Times on Saturday said it was a camp used by trainee medical workers that was attacked.
Again you are equating random attacks by primitive rocket launchers with deliberate targeting of civilian areas by sophisticated weapons as consitently carried out by the Israelis - that is not my opinion of acceptible behaviour - but then again, my attitude isn't that the Palestinians should surrender to Israeli aggression and usurpation of territory, as your has been on this thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 06:00 AM

Here is a Reuter's report on it Jim

An Israeli air strike has killed a Hamas military commander and rocket maker in the Gaza Strip, the Islamist group that rules the Palestinian territory said on Saturday.

Issa Batran was killed by a missile that hit his caravan in the central Gaza Strip. Israel launched air strikes against targets in Gaza on Friday after a rocket fired from the enclave exploded in the city of Ashkelon.

The air strikes also hit a training camp in Gaza City used by Hamas and smuggling tunnels along Gaza's southern border with Egypt. Several people were wounded by debris in Gaza City.

Hamas said Batran was a rocket maker and the head of its military wing in the central Gaza Strip. The militant group has a rocket arsenal of crude, homemade projectiles and longer-range rockets smuggled in through tunnels under the border with Egypt.

Israel carried out the air strikes after militants in Gaza fired a rocket into Ashkelon on Israel's Mediterranean coast, blowing out the windows of an apartment block and damaging parked cars in a residential area.
http://alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE66U00V.htm

A training camp used by Hamas.
Are Hamas training many doctors and nurses? Why in a camp and not the hospital Jim.
You are so gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 06:04 AM

Jim,
"Again you are equating random attacks by primitive rocket launchers with deliberate targeting of civilian areas"

Some of the rockets are of advanced Chinese manufacture brought in instead of food and humanitarian supplies through the tunnels.
They are aimed at civilian residential areas.
Deliberately aimed and targeted.
If they stopped, the replies would stop.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 06:19 AM

Rockets fired towards Israel from Sinai peninsula

Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Monday 2 August 2010 09.11 BST

A salvo of rockets was fired this morning towards the southern Israeli resort city of Eilat from the Sinai peninsula. There were no casualties or damage in Eilat but there were initial reports of four injuries in the nearby Jordanian city Aqaba.

Five rockets were fired shortly before 8am, according to early reports. One reached open ground on the outskirts of Eilat, a seaside resort popular with Israelis. Three landed in the Red Sea and one hit Aqaba, with some reports saying four people were injured.

The Israeli army said it was searching the area around Eilat and co-ordinating with the Jordanian and Egyptian militaries.

A Jordanian interior ministry source told Reuters: "The Grad rocket landed in a public street near a major five star hotel and caused four injuries, with three persons lightly wounded and the other casualty in a serious condition."

The attack follows a series of rocket launches from Gaza into Israel over the past few days. One Katyusha rocket reached the city Ashkelon causing panic among residents. Israel retaliated with air strikes on Gaza City, killing a senior Hamas commander, Issa Batran. Hamas's military wing pledged to avenge his death.

Further Israeli airstrikes destroyed two tunnels and last night the home of a second senior Hamas commander, Alaa al-Danaf, was rocked by an explosion in which more than 20 were injured. Israel denied involvement.

Attacks by militants on and around Eilat are unusual, although two rockets were fired from the Sinai at the Israeli city in April. A suicide bomber killed three people there in January 2007.

According to Israel, Hamas uses the Sinai Peninsula as a smuggling route for weapons into Gaza. The militant organisation has close links with the Muslim Brotherhood, a banned Islamic organisation in Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 07:50 AM

"If they stopped, the replies would stop. "


Wa-a-a-a-a-a-aH!

But he hit me back first!...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 07:58 AM

"You are so gullible"
Once again you are claiming neutrality and taking sides, as you did when you distorted the effects of phosphorus on civilians.
The weapons you are describing are new additions to the Palestinians meagre arsenal and are still piss-poor in comarison with what the Israelis have at their disposal. I doubt if it is coincidence that the Israelis have announced that they are willing to re-open negotiations within two weeks - a combination of the effects of their massive own-gaol over the piracy and the fact that Palestinian opposition appears to be increasing and becoming more efficient.
This continues to be a David and Goliath (ironic that) fight with poorly equipped Palestinians faced with a heavily armed enemy using sophisticated weapons, tanks and planes, who are happy to target homes hospitals, schools and civilians in general. The Israelis continue to be the aggressor in this conflict and are recognised as such throughout the world. The reports of Israeli settlers taking over Palestinian homes and property continue, almost on a daily basis. The Palestinians are the victims who are entitled to show resistance.
Compare the casualty figures in this conflict if you have any doubts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 08:40 AM

And before you accuse me or anybody of being gullible I suggest you take stock of the support you have got on this issue.
This is now the third thread in which you have found yourself very much in the minority, an indication, to me at least, that your views put you so far to the right as to be pretty well beyond the pale of most reasonable-thinking people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 09:19 AM

Jim,
"Once again you are claiming neutrality and taking sides, as you did when you distorted the effects of phosphorus on civilians"

I am quite knowledgeable about this.
I do not believe I have distorted any aspect of it.
I say you have made that up.
Prove me wrong Jim.

I still claim neutrality.

Were Israel the most advanced civilisation on earth, it can not stop Hamas' rockets killing its people.
No state, however advanced, can allow that to continue.
The crudest of their rockets, with explosive wrapped around with metal fragments, are lethal.
And they are aimed at residential areas to kill civilians.
I find that shocking, and I do not even claim to be a pacifist.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 09:24 AM

Jim, here is a picture of one of your army's vehicles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Irish_Scorpion_Tank.JPG
Those stubby tubes on the turret are for launching white phosphorus smoke munitions.
Will you be starting a campaign any time soon?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 10:00 AM

Jim to Keith: "you have found yourself very much in the minority".

To be in the minority should not scare anybody, particularly when discussing on the Israel/Palestine question, where in the Left wing political area, to which I think most of us belong, there is an overwhelming majority against Israel and an incredible (to me) support to political movements that despise freedom of thought and speech, critical education, equality between sexes, political and civil rights, division of powers, secularism, economic development.

It is important to weigh the ideas of the others, especially when they express a majority, but conformism should not be our reference.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 10:09 AM

"A training camp used by Hamas.
Are Hamas training many doctors and nurses? Why in a camp and not the hospital Jim.
You are so gullible. "

Because the IDF blew the crap out of all the hospitals, they are more rubble than sanitary working places of healing.

By your own logic, since all fit citizens, male and female are IDF reserbvists, then 'Israeli Civilian Areas where off duty IDF reservists may live' are thus valid military targets. You are so gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 10:13 AM

"Prove me wrong Jim."
You have been proved wrong by the definitions presented to you which you continue to ignore, by the descriptions of the effects of phosphorus when used on human beings, by the film footage of phoshorus fragments falling on residential areas and by the reports from medical teams treating the injured following the last incursion - if you are 'knowledgeable' about this as you claim, then you have been deliberately distorting what you profess to know.
"I still claim neutrality."
You joke - surely? You have denied, distorted or supported every Israeli war crime and act of brutality put to you, and when you were cornered you paid lip service to 'regretting it'.
"And they are aimed at residential areas to kill civilians."
Up to now the rockets and the circumstances in which they are fired are incapable of being aimed anywhere - read Bobad's description of casualties in his last contribution as compared to the injuries and deaths of Palestinians.
"Jim, here is a picture of one of your army's vehicles."
Sorry, I don't have an army, and I am unaware of any reports of the Irish army using phosphorus on civilians anywhere in the world - enlighten me.
This is again turning into another dialogue which I said I had no intention of being involved in - put up or go and stalk somebody else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM

Jim, you said,
"you distorted the effects of phosphorus on civilians."

No I have not and you can not provide an example because there is none.

The Irish army trains with and stockpiles what you say are illegal chemical weapons.
No government on Earth agrees with you Jim.

On gullibility.
At the start of this thread, activists claimed IDF charged aboard with guns blazing and killed 20 passengers.
You and the others lapped it up.
You pronounced it "Israel's Sharpeville."
Then the videos showed Israel's account to be much closer to the truth.
Some activists even resorted to claiming them faked.
The same thing later over the video purported to show a young activist's murder.
The autopsies showed no one died like that.It was just a propagandist lie.

Historical footnote. The word "gullible" was accidently omitted by Dr Sam Johnson from his original dictionary, and to this day it is not found in any printed dictionary out of respect for the great man.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 11:51 AM

Foolestoupe, the hospitals were not destroyed.
The damage quickly repaired.
http://www.muslimaid.org/index.php/media-centre/press-releases/475-gaza-hospital

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM

"No I have not and you can not provide an example because there is none."
You have described them as 'smoke bombs' and implied that they are harmless throughout this discussion.
"No government on Earth agrees with you Jim."
Most governments have signed an agreement saying that they should not be used in the vicinity of civilians - Israel, the US and Saddam Hussain are among the few who have used them in such a manner.
"You and the others lapped it up."
I have made no comment on the deaths and injuries on the ship apart from comparing the weapons carried by the Israelis with the makeshift ones used for defence by the relief crew.
I described the incident as Israel's Sharpville, as it has also been in the press, because of the political impact it has had on Israel's image; pretty much the same as that on apartheid South Africa. It was a display of political ruthlessness, no less, and purts into contact Isreal's and their apologists' contempt for human rights.
"Then the videos showed Israel's account to be much closer to the truth."
The Israeli government have refused to co-operate with a UN investigation and insist on being their own judge and jury ONCE MORE - a fact that you have persistantly ignored. If they have nothing to hide, WHY?
"The damage quickly repaired."
Oh, that's all right then, let's attack a few more hospitals with heavy weapons as long as the damage can be repaired at a later date.
I find it interesting that 'gullibility' was one of the terms being bandied about (along with "the inventions of wingeing Yids" by one Tory MP), when the reports were coming out about the gas chambers - as I said, 'holocaust denier just about sums you up' - and still on your own, despite describing the rest of the world as 'gullible'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM

I have NEVER implied they were harmless.
I have always stated the opposite.
Prove me wrong?

"Most governments have signed an agreement saying that they should not be used in the vicinity of civilians"
Really? What agreement is that and what weapons are OK on civilians?

"The Israeli government have refused to co-operate with a UN investigation"
They have agreed to co-operate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:55 PM

The truly gullible take the IDF's word.

>>"The Israeli government have refused to co-operate with a UN investigation"
They have agreed to co-operate.<<

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 01:25 PM

"I have NEVER implied they were harmless."
That is exactly what you have done - I believe you have claimed to have used them yourself somewhere above"
Show me where you have once acknowledged the damage they do to people.
"Really? What agreement is that and what weapons are OK on civilians?"
At the time of the Fallujah massacre there was a claim similar to your own that they were used as cover - read the press debate I posted. The US denied they used them on civilians but in the light of the evidence (posted above) they backed down. They have refused to sign up to their total non-use, Israel have not even botherd to do that and have just used them on civilians anyway - and you have continually claimed that they only used them for cover. READ YOUR OWN POSTINGS.
Are you now saying that they are lethal as described my me and others and that the Israelis used them on civilians, thus making themselves war criminals?
"They have agreed to co-operate"
Last week they backed out of co-operation with the UN Human Rights team.
This morning it was reported that they would re-enter negotiations with the Palestinians, probably for the reasons I suggested above - as far as I am aware their refusal to co-operate with the investigation remains - do you have any different information?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 01:49 PM

Jim,

YOU have stated that the invaded are not bound by any laes of war, but can do whatever they need to do to drive out the invader.

Since the Arab population is within the territory of the 1923 Mandate Palestine Jewish Homeland, they are invaders and Israel has no requirement to follow ANY laws.

THAT is what YOU have stated: If you disagree, than the Palestinians have no right to what they are doing: If you think that they have some special rights, then you are stating that Israelis are less human than Palestinians- and that is bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:06 PM

>>Since the Arab population is within the territory of the 1923 Mandate Palestine Jewish Homeland, they are invaders<<

beardedbruce that among the dumbest things you have ever said on this forum.

a. Britain was an occupier when it made that mandate. Local Arab speaking Palestinians were not consulted.
b. The "Palestinian Jews" gave up any right to the terms of that mandate when they themselves engaged in terrorism against the British. Even more so after the terrorism and outright warfare by those Jews induced the British to leave.
c. Under no sane definition can the term "invader" be applied to a person who has occupied the same piece of land for generations.
d. It also cannot be applied to people who were kicked off land to make room for the European Jews who now inhabit it. The tens of thousands of refugees in Gaza are in no way invaders.

The truly gullible make such claims.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:14 PM

Jim, "Show me where you have once acknowledged the damage they do to people."
20th July White phosphorous is nasty stuff,
I do not condone Israel's use of WP where it endangered civillians.
I deplored it.
21st July The use close to civillians was reckless and deplorable,
22nd July You will see that I have not supported its use in Gaza.
I said it was wrong and deplorable. It could also be illegal.
I will say again that I have not supported the use of WP in Gaza
It is dangerous, but not a targetted weapon.
I have said all along that its use in Gaza was reckless and possibly illegal.
25th July Emma, I agree WP is too dangerous to use in populated areas
Everyone knows that phosphorus burns
26th july I have never denied that smoke munitions can cause injury, and said its use here was deplorable and possibly illegal.
Do I need to say again that I deplored its use here and said it might have been illegal?
I never suggested smoke was harmless. In fact I said all along that it should not have been used and may have been illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM

Jack, please explain your post.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:17 PM

"YOU have stated that the invaded are not bound by any laes of war, "
I said that the invaded have a right to defend themselves - not that they are not bound by any conventions of war.
You and Keith have persistantly denied that right and excused Israel's war crimes on the Palestinian defensive/retailatory David v Goliath barrage, which it tantamount to unconditional surrender to Israel's demands.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM

Jack is trying to ignore the fact that the 1923 borders, which created the Arab Homeland of Transjordan from 77% of the Mandate Palestine, and left the remainder ( 23% ) as the Jewish Homeland was the last acknowledged borders that the Arabs agreed to. In 1948, they attacked the new state of Israel ( who, being outnumbered and outgunned, MUST have been supported by Jim)and took the West Bank ( and removed the almost the entire Christian and Jewish population).

It seems that there are many here that give rights to Arabs that they deny to Israelis- and I see nothing besides relegious bigotry for that- as BOTH populations have roots in the region, and BOTH were given homelands under the treaty that ended WWI-. AND Israel has returned ALL Jordanian territory taken in war- the West Bank is part of Israel according to the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan.


If there is a problem with the 1923 borders, lets go back and negate them- and eliminate Lebenon, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan et al as well. It appears that ONLY the Jewish Homeland is subject to such a change- Anybody but Jews is the cry that I hear from some here.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM

Jim, YOU have constantly denied to Israel the right to defend themselves from attack- EVEN thought they have been invaded. Why is that?

Jews stopped standing in rows to be shot after WW II. Your wanting them to now will not make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:41 PM

Bruce please clarify your claim that people who have lived on land for generations are invaders?

Also in all of the population and history of the planet earth it is only European Jews that have claimed a land which they have vacated for 2000 years. This is not bigotry. It is a fact.

Dropping WP on a populated area is in no sane definition of defense.

Israel seems to think that what the Nazi's did to their ancestors they should be able to do to the Arab speaking Palestinians.

Israel thinks that their own terrorism and evil is righteous because they are fulfilling God's word.

All of these ideas are insane and they are the largest cause of strife on the planet.

Israelis have what rights they have by force of arms. Force of arms paid for with my taxes.

Arab speaking Palestinians have no rights. Israel denies their rights by force of arms.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:42 PM

"Since the Arab population is within the territory of the 1923 Mandate Palestine Jewish Homeland, they are invaders and Israel has no requirement to follow ANY laws."

Bruce, I think you need to look up the word "invade" in the dictionary.

To invade a place you have to come from somewhere else.

The Palestinians living in Gaza were all born within the borders of the mandate you apeak of, as were their parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc.

You are of course entitled to talk bollocks, but please at least make it look like you have a brain.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:58 PM

The Jews that settled under the Ottomans in the West Band had the right to stay there- UNTIL the Arabs removed them- So, I presume you suipport the return of the West Bank to those Jews?

Look at the 1923 treaty- Are you prepared to open up Jordan to Jewish immigration? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

Bruce I don't support that 1923 "treaty" at all. It was imposed by occupiers. Nor do I recognize the legality of anything the Turks did as occupiers.

Nor do I believe that you recognize any treaty or international ruling that has gone against zionism, unless it is convenient to your case.

But I do not see multi-generational residents of a land as invaders and I do see the forced removal of such people to create and preserve a theocracy as a war crime. If the Jews want to live on that land they ought to do it democratically with their neighbors, one person one vote. To engage in warfare to do otherwise is uncivilized.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 03:33 PM

"But I do not see multi-generational residents of a land as invaders and I do see the forced removal of such people to create and preserve a theocracy as a war crime"

So do you agree that the 1948 forced removal of Jews from the West Bank was a war crime? How about the Christians?

Yes or no:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 03:43 PM

Rant and rave as much as you like - your description of the palestinians in Gaza as "invaders" is nothing short of delirious.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM

Sure.

It is all crime.

But one of the crimes is currently ongoing and we can do something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 04:00 PM

"20th July White phosphorous is nasty stuff,"
WP is not nasty stuff - it is poisonous, ands it kills and burns people; your description is insulting considering the damage it does - 'praising with faint damns' in fact.
You have stated categorically that the Israelis have not targeted civilians - not true.
Your postings are becoming hysterically confused - are you now admitting that the Israeli's use of phosphorus on civilian targets constitutes a war crime - please be specific?
"Jim, YOU have constantly denied to Israel the right to defend themselves"
No I haven't - I have said that an invaders should expect efforts to repel them. The Israelis are the aggressors here as far as I am concerned, they have used chemical weapons on occupied cities, they have invaded Palestinian territory with heavy weapons, tanks, armored cars, they have bombed civilian area, bombarded hospital and schools, even relief food supplies. Complaining about random shelling is like Goliath expecting David to throw away his sling.
"Jews stopped standing in rows to be shot after WW II. "
Once again you scurry behind the holocaust to make your argument - my grouse is with the Israeli government, not the Jewish people - and it never has been.
You appear to be doing what you have accused Hamas of doing - in this case, using the Jewish people as hostages.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 04:18 PM

Read all my quotes. I have acknowledged the risk even of wp smoke, but it is not a chemical weapon. It is not a weapon at all.
You saying it does not make it true.
It was wrong to use it in a populated city but there is no evidence of targeting civilians.
It was used to screen their soldiers from their enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 04:42 PM

"It was used to screen their soldiers from their enemies."
Now I am confused - those who were treated for burns were sitting too close to the fire - is that right?
And those who were maimed and burnt in Fallujah were out in the sun for too long????
And maybe the Wiki definition is wrong - and the clear descriptions by the Amesrican soldier and the scientists....
Mealy mouthed hypocritical cant. No change there then!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 05:40 PM

Keith one so "open minded" you sure talk a lot of nonsense. The WP was lobbed on people, schools hospitals, UN aid and houses in 155 mm howitzer shells from some distance away. You don't need a smoke screen in a heavily populated city. You can hide behind buildings. In fact smoke would draw attention to your position.

It was used as an offensive weapon to destroy civilian infrastructure and to punish the populace for voting for Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 06:04 PM

Jim, a direct hit or near miss from a smoke round can cause serious or fatal injuries.
Weapons intended to inflict casualties are deadly over much greater distances.
WP smoke is not recognised by governments as a chemical weapon or even a weapon. You clearly do not agree, but how much of an authority are you?
Jack, you may be a great sailor but you know little about soldiering.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 07:21 PM

Bear in mind that the IDF have been caught using tear gas canisters as weapons against peaceful demonstrators on numerous occasions, by deliberately aiming at their faces, and there is a consistent pattern.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 02:58 AM

Lox, how close were they to the protesters?
I ask because the hand held launchers have no sights and short, unrifled barrels.
To aim at a face sized target you would have to be close enough to punch them anyway.

Re the smoke.
Accrding to IHS Jane's Weapons Technology Analyst commenting on the discussions surrounding the Israeli use of white phosherous agents in Gaza, "The round so far specified as being fired are the M825A1 which is purely an air-burst white phosherous smoke projectile." the analyst said. 'It's construction and function is highly elaborate and I would say deliberately so to make it inappropriate for anti-personnel use'. M825A1 shell is not defined as an incendiary weapon by the Third Protocol to the Convention on Conventional Weapons because its principal use is to produce smoke to protect troops. White Phosphorous weapons banned by theprotocol are ground or low level burst weapons designed primarily for anti-personnel use. The primary function of the M825A1 is for the rapid creation of a highly effective, but short lived visible and infrared smoke screen.
http://defense-update.com/newscast/0109/analysis/analysis_080109_phosphorous.html

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:21 AM

Keith:
Throughout this thread you have been maliciously obstructive in your support for Israeli brutality - you continue to be so.
You have deliberately attempted to disguise the effect of phosphorus by describing it as 'smoke' and have defended its use by repeating parrot-fashion that "WP smoke is not recognised by governments as a chemical weapon"
You have totally ignored the described effects it has had when used in civilian areas, both in Gaza and Fallujah, the statements by doctors and scientists on its properties, even the definition of the material itself.
You have continued to dismiss its illegality by ignoring or denying that it has been used in populated areas.
Your arrogant attitude, as displayed to Jack in your last posting, comes with no authority, or none that you have presented, or I'm sure it would have been crowed from the rooftops long before now - such is the ego that appears to motivate you.
If your argument throughout this thread has had any purpose at all, it has been to divert from the war crimes committed by the Israelis against Palestinian civilians, and now against those who would bring relief to a besieged people.
One can only imagine the arguments you would put up in support of Sharpville, Pinochet, Guantanamo, Fallujah.... and all of history's monsters and their adventures.
If you are owed any credit, it is for your tenacity in pursuing your cause to defend these people and their outrages. Well done - you have truely earned your place in the 'Holocaust Deniers Hall of Fame'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 04:01 AM

"Throughout this thread you have been maliciously obstructive in your support for Israeli brutality - you continue to be so"

It is a lie that I have supported ANYONE'S brutality.
Show one example. No chance.
How is it possible to be obstructive? How did I obstruct you Jim?
You post lies and nonsense about me.

"You have deliberately attempted to disguise the effect of phosphorus by describing it as 'smoke'"

It was a smoke producing munition. That is what it is for. That is what defines it and is how it is defined. Sorry if you can not understand that.

"and have defended its use by repeating parrot-fashion that "WP smoke is not recognised by governments as a chemical weapon" "

BECAUSE IT IS A FACT THAT YOU NEVER MANAGED TO GET YOUR HEAD AROUND!

"You have totally ignored the described effects it has had when used in civilian areas"

That is another lie. I have acknowledged all its effects.

"You have continued to dismiss its illegality by ignoring or denying that it has been used in populated areas"

Another lie. We all understood that from the start. That is what this discussion is about.

"Your arrogant attitude, as displayed to Jack in your last posting, comes with no authority,"

Jack was wrong to dismiss the tactical value of smoke here.
You do not need to be a great authority to know that.

Your final string of insults were simply beneath contempt and I will not raise them out of the gutter to refute.

If you can not engage in reasoned, honest debate you do not belong here.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 05:31 AM

"Methinks the lady doth protest too much" - especially one who had no compunction in describing those who opposed his arguments as "Fascist" while he was being an apologist for the massacre of 14 unarmed demonstrators on Bloody Sunday.
One of us certainly doesn't belong here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:00 AM

More lies about me.
I was never an apologist for those who killed. I denounced them.

I described as fascist your support for using military might to force a population to change their chosen form of government.
I stand by that.
It had nothing to do with us disagreeing.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:13 AM

"Lox, how close were they to the protesters?
I ask because the hand held launchers have no sights and short, unrifled barrels.
To aim at a face sized target you would have to be close enough to punch them anyway."

This is all irrelevant.

Firstly, the whole idea of a tear gas canister launcher is that you point it in a particular direction and it fires tha canister there and not anywhere else.

So thats what they did.

But thats just nit picking.

The evidence is the videos in which you hear the soldiers saying "aim at the face" and this is then supported by the numerous facial injuries that have been sustained from tear gas canisters fired with malicious intent.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:37 AM

If true, the individual soldiers are misbehaving.
If video exists, action could and should be brought against them, as has happened previously to Israeli soldiers.
Or, are you suggesting that their government ordered them to do that?

Can you link us to these videos?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:56 AM

I am not calling you a liar Lox, but I do think you have been mislead.
A rifle is a hundred times more accurate than a cannister launcher, but even with that soldiers are trained to aim for centre of mass, to increase chance of hitting at all.
And, standing unsupported is the least effective firing position for accuracy.
It is just fanciful to believe that with a cannister launcher you can do more than point it in a general direction.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 08:40 AM

Will the countries which mobilized the flotillas of humanitarian aid for their Muslim brothers in Gaza do the same for the beleaguered people of Pakistan who have been left homeless, hungry and battling disease due to the flooding caused by the monsoon rains?

I put this question to Tarek Fatah, activist, writer, broadcaster and founder of the Canadian Muslim Congress. This is his reply: "I doubt it very much; we are too dark-skinned to deserve a flotilla. So, in exchange, Our 'brothers' have sent us tonnes of 'prayers' and 'chants' along with the consignment of AK-47s, an arsenal of IDU components and clerics to pray for the dead.".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 09:01 AM

"I doubt it very much;"

so neither of you knows then ...

here is the IHH homepage detailing the humanitarian help they are currently engaged in.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 10:53 AM

Keith A, I've read reports where the IDF has claimed to have fired WP rounds from 155 howitizers on "enemy positions."

I have read reports of schools, houses, aid and civilians which have been burned by airbursts of WP.

Janes is a good source of technical information, but this statement does nothing to make your case.

>>>he round so far specified as being fired are the M825A1 which is purely an air-burst white phosherous smoke projectile." the analyst said. 'It's construction and function is highly elaborate and I would say deliberately so to make it inappropriate for anti-personnel use'. M825A1 shell is not defined as an incendiary weapon by the Third Protocol to the Convention on Conventional Weapons because its principal use is to produce smoke to protect troops. <<

The phrase "so far specified" means there may have been other types of rounds used. Even so a 767 jetliner is also not defined as an incendiary weapon by the Third Protocol to the Convention on Conventional Weapons because its principal use is to fly people around. But those firemen and office workers in the twin towers are still dead.

You are a poorly informed apologist for terrorism and mass murder. I have nothing more to say to you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 12:06 PM

"Will the countries which mobilized the flotillas of humanitarian aid for their Muslim brothers in Gaza "
A totally illogical and destructive argument and one usually put by someone with an axe to grind.
There are thousands of causes to give your support to - the logic of your argument is that we support none of them because we can't support them all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 01:22 PM

Jack, "the round so far specified.."
There have been no updates, and it was a long time ago.
Those were the rounds used Jack, and there is a familiar illustration of the airburst.
So you really do not have anything else to say to me Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

No, not on that topic.

You haven't bothered to read what anyone else has said. There is no point.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 05:54 PM

We are all fallible Jack.
Jim had not read any of that long piece about Fallujah.
We can help each other.
Point out one thing I have missed or failed to respond to Jack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:00 PM

"It is just fanciful to believe that with a cannister launcher you can do more than point it in a general direction"

I have seen footage of those WP airbursts - have also done the pyro (fireworks) course - and thy DO look pretty - and spread the burning junk over a large area - where, as previously agreed to by all, they will melt skin off ...

Dropping a large cannister of napalm is also very inaccurate, but it's still bloody effective, even just as a terror weapon "bloody hell, if they're gonna throw those things around, I'm outta here" ... unless it IS your home....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:25 PM

"Historical footnote. The word "gullible" was accidently omitted by Dr Sam Johnson from his original dictionary, and to this day it is not found in any printed dictionary out of respect for the great man. "

More delusional ramblings hoping to brainwash us gullible dupes ... sigh... It's a regular 1 April joke mate - I have a wall full of dictionaries next to me, and more at my own home - many general English ones as well as specific area one, eg computing, nursing, (2 at random) and others...

Etymology

Either gull +‎ -ible, or from dialect Middle English gull ("newly hatched bird"), perhaps from Old Norse gulr, from the hue of its down.

    * "credulity" in Roget's Thesaurus, T. Y. Crowell Co., 1911.
    * "gullible" in Moby Thesaurus II, Grady Ward, 1996.


http://www.wordswarm.net/dictionary/gullible.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=gullible

Hey, Did You Know the Word "Gullible" isn't in the Dictionary? - entry for 1 April ...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:27 PM

Dropping a large rocket of explosives with a ball-bearing casing to maximize civilian casualties is also very inaccurate, but it's still bloody effective, even just as a terror weapon "bloody hell, if they're gonna throw those things around, I'm outta here" ... unless it IS your home....


But then, I hear NO complaints about the illegal bombardment of ISRAELI civilians from many here...


How about the dead Jordanian ( from the last batch of rockets launched from the Sinai?)? ANybody want to say how inhuman the launchers of THOSE rockets were???



Or is it ONLY when Israelis kill Arabs that you give a damn?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:40 PM

Ah - Bearded Bruce ...

... SO you agree that the use of WP in this context is comparable to the random terror inflicted by the men who criminally fire the rockets into Israel from Gaza.

You agree that the use of WP is criminal and terrorist and intended to maim and injure if not kill.


Lets have a discussion about the rockets.

Their use is a crime.

Anyone disagree?

No.

ok discussion over.

How about a dscussion about WP.

Its use is a crime.

Anyne disagree?

yes lots of people.

ok - discussion ongoing.


... where were we?

Ah yes - the use of WP is akin to the use of rockets against civilians ...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 06:49 PM

Bruce.

Noone is defending Hamas rocket attacks.

we all agree that they are BAD.


The only argument remaining is the one about Israeli attacks against Palestinians.

These are being defended on this thread.


ergo - a discussion.


so we all condemn the murders of Israelis by palestinians.

But you and others on here do not condemn the much greater number of murders of Palestinians by Israelis.


So stop whingeing and moralizing because the only ones on here who show any contempt for arab lives, and the only ones apologizing for murder, on this website are those who are defending the Israelis proportionally much greater agression.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 07:00 PM

No.

I merely point out that f it were illegal weapons that were being complained about, there would be at least SOME mention of the Palestinian ones. Since there has not been, those people must have no objection to illegal weapons: It is Jews being allowed to defend themselves that they find offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 07:56 PM

That is some of the most mealy mouthed twisting of views and creation of straw men that I have ever witnessed.

That was not your implication.

Your implcation was unambiguous that if critics of Israel truly care about dead arabs then they would be discussing the rockets too.

Your implication was clearly that critics of Israel are therefore not motivated by care for dead arabs.

Your insinuation was that therefore critics of Israel must be driven by another hidden motivation.


Now you state that critics of Israel are motivated only by bigotry against Jews.

Well Bruce let me spell it out again.


WE ALL CONDEMN THE ROCKETS.

HENCE NO DISCUSSION.



YOU DEFEND CRIMES AGAINST PALESTINIANS

HENCE THERE IS A DISCUSSION.



WE ALL RECOGNIZE THAT ISRAELIS DO NOT DESERVE TO BE FIRED UPON.

YOU DO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT PALESTINIANS DO NOT DESERVE TO BE FIRED UPON.


YOU DEFEND ISRAELS RIGHT TO KILL PALESTINIANS.


AND IF SOMEONE DISAGREES YOU SAY IT IS BECAUSE THEY DISCRIMINATE AGAINST JEWS.


You've spelled it out very clearly.

Thank you for clarifying your position as a hypocrite and a wholly partisan bigot.


You are one fucked up individual.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 09:16 PM

Israel-Lebanon border clash kills five people

The Lebanese army says Israeli soldiers crossed the border to uproot a tree which was blocking their view near the Lebanese village of Adaysseh.

A Lebanese army spokesman said troops had fired warning shots and Israel had responded with fire from artillery positions and helicopters.

The Lebanese army confirmed to the BBC that three of its soldiers had been killed and four wounded. The al-Akhbar newspaper confirmed that one of its journalists, Assaf Abu Rahhal, had also been killed.

Hezbollah fighters, who battled Israel four years ago, took no part in the exchange of fire. But Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said the group would not stand silent if Israel attacked the Lebanese army in the future.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IDF WP bursts clearly visible on news footage - if 'only for cover' - why are they targeting Lebanese positions?

~~~~~~~~~~
"Lebanon's Higher Council for Defense headed by President Michel Suleiman said it held Israel accountable for Tuesday's clash and it would complain to the U.N. Security Council.

Israeli complained to the U.N Security Council over the clash, saying it held the government of Lebanon responsible. "

But - he hit me back first!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 09:18 PM

"But then, I hear NO complaints about the illegal bombardment of ISRAELI civilians from many here..."

You sir are an out right liar if you are speaking about me ...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:44 AM

Foolestroupe, I was afraid no one would fall for the gullible joke.
Not only did you oblige, but you then compounded it by accepting without question the Lebanese version of the recent clash.

Israel and Lebanon both agree that Lebanese troops fired first.
Lebanon said they fired because Israelis crossed the border.

The UN peacekeepers were very quickly on the scene.
The border is fenced.
They say there was absolutely no evidence of an Israeli incursion across the border.

Re the WP smoke deployment.
The munitions are vey dangerous and can and did cause some casualties, but they are not designed to cause casualties, are legal and most armed forces use them.
No evidence has been produced that civillians were targeted.
The smoke was deployed to screen troops from their enemies.
I think they should have accepted the risk to their troops rather than put civilians at risk, but I do not have a son in the IDF.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:45 AM

1800...and no comment!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:23 AM

Foolestroupe, you have not read my comments about cannister launchers in context.
You clearly did not read Lox's posts I was replying to.
We were discussing hand held teargas cannister launchers.

I must be one of the most conscientious readers of other's posts on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:27 AM

"Israel and Lebanon both agree that Lebanese troops fired first."

Your 'absolutely objective' linked source of documentation for this sweeping statement please? The record you have already established here means that I can't just blindly take your statement as 'gospel fact'...


Of course one would expect one side to fire at armed enemy soldiers dicking around with machinery in a 'free fire zone' border fence area (the IDF have 'set the rules' by regularly shooting at anybody walking around on the opposite side of their fences - made their bed, one might say) ... only openly arrogant lunatics would walk up to a border fence in such a contentious area, and one is tempted to think that the poor guys hit were either set up by their superiors who gave the orders, or 'were stupid enough to ask for it' by standing around in the open in the circumstances (I'm reminded of WWI trench stories of stupid young British Officers who insisted on 'just taking a quick peek over the top' and getting taken out by snipers) ... and it seems to me that the IDF were 'testing the waters' by even approaching the fence line - what with all that high powered IDF hardware able to fire back so rapidly... the fact that an IDF tank was taken out proves that they were definitely there... and any tank is always seen as a 'threat' by opposing military forces.

I saw the footage of an IDF manned backhoe with its bucket over the fence line, poking at a tree growing on the fence line...

I have heard that 'it was a Lebanese ambush' - right, they planted that tree 20 years ago and have been staking it out ever since... hahahahaha! oh boy! talk about 'gullible' ...


Just how much hassle is gone thru in Korea when either side wants to play around 'trimming trees' in THEIR 'free fire' "No Man's Land"?


"Re the WP smoke deployment."

Ah the broken record replays.... nothing new said - again ...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:29 AM

"you have not read my comments about cannister launchers in context."

There's the very limited bigoted 'context' you want, and then there is the context of the whole approx 2,000 posts that others of has have taken into account...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:31 AM

"you have not read my comments about cannister launchers in context."

There's the very limited bigoted 'context' you want, and then there is the context of the whole approx 2,000 posts that others of us have taken into account...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:05 AM

Lox, I am not gullible enough to believe either side.
You accept one side's claim without question.
Lebanon admits firing first.
We can believe that I think.

Should I have refused to answer Lox about tear gas launchers because he was being "bigoted and limited" ?

I am repeating myself on WP only in reply to others who keep bringing up the same old claims.
Why remonstrate with me about that?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:05 AM

Sorry Lox.
That was to Foolestroupe.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM

"Lebanon admits firing first."

Yep, they 'fired warning shots' to warn IDF personnel (with tanks and earth moving machinery) who were getting too close to the border...


... just exactly the same behaviour the IDF have used for decades to warn Gaza farmers working their land too close to the border....

An eye for an eye .... shoe on the other foot .... mutter mutter ...

You see those IDF guys were wandering around as if some invisible magical sky fairy had whispered in their ears that He had given them exclusive use of that land for eternity....

oh wait... silly me .... :-O

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM

We Con The World

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:43 AM

Bobad,

That video is disgusting.

Your attitude is disgusting.

The way the state of Israel treats palestinians is disgusting.


God bless all those Israelis, Jews, Moslems and Christians, who are working to stop the soulless callous compassionless hatred of people like you from the deaths of more hundreds of innocent men women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:14 AM

You're way OTT there lox.

The "humanitarian" flotilla was a con job and the world knows it.

BTW you forgot "the way Hamas treats Israelis is disgusting" in your litany of invective.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:51 AM

I've been trying to stay away from this, but a news item I caught the other day left me far angrier than any sick and stupid videos such as We Con The World.

It wasn't the announcement that Israel has decided to repatriate 1,200 Israeli born children of foreign workers. After all, Britain and the USA's policies towards immigrants are often no less barbaric. Anyway, Israel's plans for its non-Israeli population have been common knowledge for quite some time now. No, what got me steaming was the reason for the deportations, given by Netanyahu; namely that foreign residents of Israel are "undermining the Jewish character of Israel".

I seem to recall a little Austrian corporal who said that non-Aryans were undermining the Aryan character of Germany, and then had them gassed in millions.

God damn the state of Israel!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:00 PM

As an antidote to that awful (awful in artistic terms as well as being in apalling taste) here's a song which the liverpool Socialist Choir has added to its repertoire recently. It was written by Elain Ryan and Marie Walsh, and gives some splendid advice about how you can help the victims of Israel.

I don't know what tune they set it to, but it goes very well to the tune of Bye Bye Love.

The Boycott Song

To help the people of Palestine
We don't buy grapefruit or Israeli wine
And if you're wondering what you can do:
Please join the boycott and help them too!

Ch. So we say Don't buy dates
don't buy:) Don't buy Jaffa fruit
Don't buy Israeli wine
There's a boycott going on!
repeat

Their land's been taken and occupied
Their houses bulldozed and farms destroyed
The Western powers send arms with glee
While Israel acts with impunity.        

Ch

Check sweet potatoes, avocados too
if they're from Israel you-knew what to do
Just read the bar codes those little lines,
Things made in Israel start 7 2 9.        

Ch

Tell all your neighbours "Please don't be shy
Read all the labels before you buy
You have the power each time you shop
Israel's apartheid has got to stop.        

Ch

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM

The only people being conned are those that think things like "We con the world might have an effect."

The flotillas are not conning anyone. They are meant to draw attention by delivering humanitarian aid to people who need it.

It is Israel's reactions that are making the news.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:52 PM

Bobad,

I see you have deliberately forgotten that I have stated before, as I do now, that I oppose Hamas, both in the way they treat palestinians and the way they are attempting to deal with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

In anothger CURRENT thread to which you have contributed I have very clearly stated that I oppose the use of rockets aganst Israel.

Your deliberate insinuation that I support Hamas or the killing of Israelis is as slimy and disgusting as the videos you post.

OTT? ... You're gettting off lightly!

BTW - the last I checked, Hamas were not occupying Israel, they were not blockading Israel, they did not have thousands of Israeli prisoners in their jails on trumped up charges such as "stealing water from a settlement", they were not holding Israelis up on their way to hospital for hours or turning them away based on arbitrary medical judgements that they have no qualification to make, thus risking innocent peoples lives and in some cases causing their deaths, they were not preventing the import of food, medical supplies and things like incubators, and they did not have troops parading aggressively around Israeli residential areas acting as bullies towards teenage boys and children, nor were they knocking down Israelis houses.

I do not support Hamas - I oppose them - but to suggest I have omitted something when talking about how Israelis aree treated by Hamas is dishonest as Hamas do not treat Israelis any way at all.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:24 PM

Re: The Tree Incident

Go here to read comments of the UNIFIL spokesman regarding this incident. Additionally it show maps and pictures of the scene of the shooting.

It certainly seems that the UNIFIL version of this tragedy comports with the Israeli statements.

idfspokesperson.com/.../audio-transcript-of-israel-army-radios-interview-with-unifil-spokesman-milos-struger-4-aug-2010/

Spin that all you Israel-haters!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:35 PM

Foolestroup thinks that such agressive pruning requires a use of lethal force against it.
Right Foolestroupe?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM

The question is how you are spinning it John,

The UNIFIL observer has given no testimony at all in the article you provded that supports either side in the argument.

His comments include:

""IDF informed UNIFIL that they are going to do some work cutting the tree from the other side north of the technical fence but south of the blue line. The situation on the ground quickly became tense because the LAF also deployed their forces on the ground. We also had our own people who were trying to diffuse this tension.""


ok - nothing there ...

"Tomorrow we will have a technical team to exactly establish the location in relation to the blue line.""

ok - so they plan to investogate ... no testimony yet ...


"Our investigation has been launched today…""


mmm hmmm - still nothing ...

"Daily basis we are dealing with all the different situations. Sometimes there are incidents and we manage to resolve the potential danger."


right ... so ... John? ... what was your point exactly? .....


Spin what?


And who are the Israeli haters?


Let me guess - people who disagree with you ... they are either Israeli haters, anti semites, or self hating Jews aren't they John.


God bless all those Israelis who disagree with John.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM

Lox, this thread is not about me, nor who agrees with me or disagrees with me. I have way earlier in this thread written of Israel bashing and anti-Semitism (not that I used that term earlier today--you did). I stand by what I wrote then, and need not repeat it. I don't accuse any particular member at Mudcat, but used 'Israel-hater' hoping some here might become a little bit more self-aware. 'Nuff said.

Now to your response to the link:
1-The Israelis let Unifil know they were going to trim the tree. Which trimming they had done times before.
2-Unifil told the Lebanese the Israelis were going to practice this horticultual activity.
3-The maps, which you ignored in your post, show that the Israelis were operating from Israeli territory.
4-The first shots came from the Lebanese--this is even acknowledged by a couple of posters, here, who, shall we say, are not exactly friends of Israel.

Unless I read or see anything that is substantially different, this will be my last post on the episode.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:21 PM

"3-The maps, which you ignored in your post, show that the Israelis were operating from Israeli territory.


None of this is corroborated by the UNIFIL guy.

The most recent press release from UNIFIL was on 27th May.

They have no official position on this skirmish.


Your link is to an IDF blog.

The blogger provides his own maps and has drawn on them.

I could do that and it would have no greater significance.


Spin?



You have taken the uncorroborated point of view of a wholly partisan blogger and used that as evidence.

If that isn't spin then I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:06 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?_r=1&ref=world

This is the headline and the lead:

"U.N. Supports Israeli Account of Border Clash"
By ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: August 4, 2010

JERUSALEM — The United Nations peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon, Unifil, said Wednesday that it had concluded that Israeli forces were cutting trees that lay within their own territory before a lethal exchange of fire with Lebanese Army troops, largely vindicating Israel's account of how the fighting started.
                         --- --- ---

I believe that the NYT is in the pocket of neither Israel nor the UN. In fact, I would characterize it as being generally hard on Israel when it comes to questions regarding the Middle East, and especially vis-a-via the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:26 PM

I don't know about pockets, but if you think the NYT is not pro-Israel, you have not read it.

I just saw a clip of Neil Cavuto of Fox News saying that the UN more blames Israel.

By the way everyone agrees that a tree was being cut. I just saw a film of an Israeli soldier in a bucket on the Labanon side of the border.

The Israelis now say that they built the fence on their own land and that the tree was also on their own land. How stupid of the Lebanese border guards to think that the Israeli was in their territory just because he was on their side of the fence separating the two countries.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:02 PM

Jack, please don't tell me what I think. I used the exact words I meant to use...NYT are generally hard on Israel. They just aren't as hard as many folks here..

I looked for your alleged Cavuto excerpt, but have not found it. But I did find this:

/www.foxnews.com/world/2010/08/04/israeli-military-uprooting-trees-near-site-deadly-clash-lebanese-troops/

The pertinent graphs follow:

"This time the tree trimming was followed by gunfire from the Lebanese army, apparently aimed not at the soldier hanging over the fence, but at a base some distance away, where a senior officer was killed by a shot to the head. Another officer was wounded. Israel responded with gunfire and shelling, killing two Lebanese soldiers and a journalist.

"On Wednesday the U.N. ruled that the tree, while across the fence, was inside Israeli territory. The U.N. drew the border line in 2000 after Israel withdrew its forces from south Lebanon after an 18-year occupation that followed its invasion in 1982 to fight Palestinian forces and try to install a pro-Israel government in Beirut.

"UNIFIL established ... that the trees being cut by the Israeli army are located south of the Blue Line (border) on the Israeli side," said force spokesman Lt. Naresh Bhatt."

You might also take a look at this Jordanian source which confirms the above:

www1.albawaba.com/en/main-headlines/unifil-israel-didnt-act-lebanese-territory

Further, Jack, your sarcasm in your last paragraph does you no service. It is okay to be wrong sometimes; it is okay to be sarcastic sometimes; but being both sarcastic and wrong at the same time makes one look pretty silly.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:09 AM

I think it is quite understandable that the border guards thought the Israeli soldier were in Lebanese territory. I did looking at the video.

I was suggesting to you that the ultimate problem was in the placement of the fence.

You are obviously Pro Israel your self and hypersensitive about criticism of it otherwise you would see that the NYT is pro Israel. Think about where the paper is located. It's market is very likely the most Pro Israel city in the US, by population. Do you think they do not reflect the views of their readers?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:48 AM

I think it is quite understandable that the border guards thought the Israeli soldier were in Lebanese territory. I did looking at the video.
   [You saw what you wanted to see]

I was suggesting to you that the ultimate problem was in the placement of the fence.
   [Funny, all the other times Israel cut down trees along the fence there was no problem]

You are obviously Pro Israel your self
   [Proudly]

and hypersensitive about criticism of it
   [No, I am sensitive to hyper-criticism of Israel]

otherwise you would see that the NYT is pro Israel. Think about where the paper is located. It's market is very likely the most Pro Israel city in the US, by population.

   [Jack, I'd be a bit careful with this statement. You're getting close to the 'border' here.]

Do you think they do not reflect the views of their readers?

   [Yes, I think many papers do not necessarily reflect the views of their readers. Today in California, a judge overturned Prop. 8. which had passed by a 56% or 58% margin at the ballot box. Every major California newspaper--including the LA Times--editorialized for that law being overturned. Please note, my reference to Prop. 8 is not a criticism of the newspapers; it is the most current example of newspapers bucking their readership.]

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 02:04 AM

Unless I read or see anything that is substantially different, this will be my last post on the episode.

Does this say what I think it says, viz, "I'm not going to post again unless you disagree with me"?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:14 AM

Israel built the fence.
To do that they needed access to both sides of it.
These things are always well inside the border. The old Iron Curtain fence was the same.
This fence had been there for years and the vegetation on both sides had been cut in the same way for years.
Everyone who patrolled the border would know all about that.
It comes as a surprise to Jack, but that does not signify.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:01 AM

John John John....

Do you really think a large percent of the people who voted for Prop 8 subscribe to Newspapers? I think not. "Liberal elite media readers" did not vote for prop 8.

I don't mind saying that a large percentage of the readership of the New York Times supports Israel for Religious reasons. That is a secret to know one. It is just demographics. I am not ignorant enough to assert that The NYT has no Bias towards Israel nor would I claim that the San Francisco Chronicle has no opinion about Gay rights or that the Miami Herald is neutral about Castro. These are business and they have paying subscribers and they are not going to say anything to harm their business. At the very least they with tiptoe diplomatically around issues important to their subscriber bases.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:34 AM

Here are the words of Milos Struga, the senior political advisor to the commander of UNIFIL forces on the border.
All you gullible people who always unquestioningly believe anything bad said by anyone about Israael, are starting to look silly.
http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/08/04/audio-transcript-of-israel-army-radios-interview-with-unifil-spokesman-milos-struger-4-aug

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:16 AM

One of you gullibles said the Lebanese would have had to plant the tree and wait ten years.
The Lebanese were given the time and place in advance by IDF via UNIFIL.
They brazenly murdered, confident that they could con the world that they were the victims!
They certainly conned Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:06 AM

"otherwise you would see that the NYT is pro Israel. Think about where the paper is located. It's market is very likely the most Pro Israel city in the US, by population.

   [Jack, I'd be a bit careful with this statement. You're getting close to the 'border' here.] "

Would you care to explain why Jack should be careful with this one?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:18 AM

"One of you gullibles said"

Stop looking in the mirror!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:30 AM

Oh yes, it was YOU Foolestroupe who said,
"I have heard that 'it was a Lebanese ambush' - right, they planted that tree 20 years ago and have been staking it out ever since... hahahahaha! oh boy! talk about 'gullible' ..."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:58 PM

"Oh yes, it was YOU Foolestroupe who said,
"I have heard that 'it was a Lebanese ambush' - right, they planted that tree 20 years ago and have been staking it out ever since... hahahahaha! oh boy! talk about 'gullible' ..." "

The inability to recognise Satire is a mark of low intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:56 PM

Carry on boys - delightful entertainment.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:03 PM

Oh bobad - don't applaud - throw money!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:32 AM

But I do understand irony and sarcasm Foolestroupe.

You were sarcastically saying that it could not have been an ambush because the Lebanese would not know where to set it.

I turned the satire back on you because the Lebanese were told in advance where and when the Israelis were going pruning.

Any more sarcasm?

I will refrain from being sarcastic about your immediate, unquestioning, gullible acceptance that Israel was the agressor and Lebanon the victim.
But you were all wrong, weren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:42 AM

"You were sarcastically saying that it could not have been an ambush because the Lebanese would not know where to set it."

You must be an idiot, that is is NOT what I said - it may, sadly, be what you heard - this is what is wrong with your arguments....

"I will refrain from being sarcastic about your immediate, unquestioning, gullible acceptance that Israel was the agressor and Lebanon the victim."

Wrong Again - Comrade Napoleon...

To (Mis)quote Orwell from Animal Farm...

But when Muriel reads the writing on the barn wall to Clover, interestingly, the words are, "No animal shall kill any other animal without cause."

Remember, comrades, your resolution must never falter. No argument must lead you astray. Never listen when they tell you that Man and the animals have a common interest, that the prosperity of the one is the prosperity of the others. It is all lies. Man serves the interests of no creature except himself. And among us animals let there be perfect unity, perfect comradeship in the struggle. All men are enemies. All animals are comrades.

Squealer: Do not imagine, comrades, that leadership is a pleasure. On the contrary, it is a deep and heavy responsibility. No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

None of the animals could form any idea as to what this meant, except old Benjamin, who nodded his muzzle with a knowing air, and

"Ah, that is different!" said Boxer. "If Comrade Napoleon says it, it must be right."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 11:31 AM

From the ongoing Israeli internal inquiry into the legality of the action of the IDF in international waters -

'The head of Israel's military has defended its troops' use of live ammunition during a deadly raid on an aid flotilla sailing to Gaza in May.
But Lt Gen Gabi Ashkenazi told an Israeli inquiry they underestimated the threat and should have used more force to subdue activists before boarding.

The general said 'accurate weapons' rather than stun grenades, should have been employed to 'incapacitate' people on the deck of the ship before the commandos rappelled onto it.

"We should have ensured sterile conditions in order to dispatch the forces in a minimum amount of time," he said.'

BBC news August 11

'STERILE CONDITIONS'?
Does anyone else find military euphemisms like this and 'Collateral Damage' more than a little disturbing?

The general added that the use of these 'accurate weapons' to ensure the 'sterile conditions' on board would have
"lowered the risk to our soldiers but it would not have prevented the tension... Once the decision was made to stop the ship, the conflict was inevitable."

The general's testimony follows that of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defence Minister Ehud Barak.
In their testimonies, the prime minister tried to shift some of the responsibility toward Barak, while the defence minister indicated the military did not execute the plan properly.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:37 PM

"Once the decision was made to stop the ship, the conflict was inevitable."

Yep. People tend to resist bullies, even those with big scary 'paint gun' weapons ... but that's what they claimed they were using... oh, sorry, that was proved a lie too, sorry, I can see how easy it is to get confused ....

"said 'accurate weapons' rather than stun grenades, should have been employed to 'incapacitate' people on the deck of the ship" "underestimated the threat and should have used more force to subdue activists before boarding" "We should have ensured sterile conditions in order to dispatch the forces in a minimum amount of time,"

=> We should used better weapons to kill them faster.

sterile conditions => everybody dead.

Why just not sink the bloody ships to stop 'blockade running' in a state of war then? Logic says less damage to those trying to stop the ships, surely...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 10:02 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-A1PYgzMv0

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/09/un-report-israeli-interception-of-the-gaza-flotilla-was-illegal.html

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2010/09/28/un-says-israelis-executed-us-citizen/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 02:20 AM

We finally have the results of the UN enquiry.
They found that the commandos did have to protect themselves from violent attack but, strangely, the force they used was deemed excessive.
One issue debated here was cleared up though.
Both the blockade and the boarding were perfectly legal and legitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 08:52 AM

One issue debated here was cleared up though. Both the blockade and the boarding were perfectly legal and legitimate.

Wonderful news, Keith! Time for a little celebration!

On another issue debated here the report says: "Israel's decision to board the vessels with such substantial force at a great distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior to the boarding was excessive and unreasonable" (NYT). As nine people were killed, I think we can take it that "excessive and unreasonable" are weasel-words code for "murder."

But the internal politicking of the UN is really neither here nor there. Under the shield of US protection Israel doesn't give a fuck about the UN anyway. What Israel will find a little more difficult is that it is fast losing one of its last friends in the region, and one of the most powerful. Already fazed at the loss of valued buddies like the monster tyrant Mubarak, the 51st state is now burning its boats with Turkey.

Somewhat like the hardline protestants who assaulted children at Belfast's Holy Cross school a few years ago, Israel is now caught in an unhappy downward spiral. Its lunatic behaviour is making it increasingly isolated, and this will make its behaviour ever more desperate. Pity American presidents, who will dare to do no other than pander to the New York zealots.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 09:14 AM

Thread drift - for anyone interested:

The UN will vote shortly on whether or not to officially recognise Palestine as an independent state alongside the state of Israel. Most member states have indicated their support it. Although the US have made it clear that they will definitely veto the resolution, other nations bar the US who also oppose the measure - notably in Europe and the Antipodes - could still feasibly be publicly pressured into supporting the measure.

Nearly a million signatories so far - support the Palestinian campaign for statehood:
http://www.avaaz.org/en/israelis_for_pal_independence/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 09:40 AM

Legal opinion challenges PLO statehood bid

Palestinians risk losing their rights under the new bid, as representation is called into question, legal expert says:

"A legal opinion highlighting the challenges and risks facing the Palestinian people in their quest for statehood has been obtained by Al Jazeera, in the lead up to the Palestinian Liberation Organisation's bid at the United Nations in September.

The opinion, written by Guy Goodwin-Gill, a professor of public international law at Oxford University and a member of the legal team representing Jordan's government in 'The Wall' case against Israel at the International Court of Justice in 2004, tackles the issues of Palestinian rights, representation, and the right of return, which may all be seriously affected by the outcome of the bid."

Continued

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 09:47 AM

Yup Keith - a legitimate (or should I say "legitimized"?) Israeli atrocity.

And hardly the first, or the last.

Business as usual

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:01 AM

Yup Keith - a legitimate (or should I say "legitimized"?) Israeli atrocity blockade and boarding.

Corrected

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:03 AM

Claims that the Marmara was fired on from Israeli ships or helicopters have been quietly forgotten.(It was paint, not blood Lox.)
The boarding was legitimate.
The boarders were met with "organised and violent resistance" according to the report.

That much is factual.
How the vastly outnumbered boarders should defend themselves from such an attack can only be a matter of opinion, and much easier to form such an opinion when your own life is not in danger.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:23 AM

Well Bo & Keith, dress it up with weasel-words any way you like.

It is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:38 AM

atrocity, n, 1: The quality or state of being atrocious. 2: An atrocious act, object, or situation

atrocious, adj, 1: Extremely wicked, brutal or cruel : BARBARIC. 2: APPALLING, HORRIFYING
3a: utterly revolting, ABOMINABLE. b. Of very poor quality. syn see OUTRAGEOUS

Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:54 AM

legitimate adj : accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements

                        : conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 12:22 PM

conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards.

Yup. Conforming to the Israeli's own rules & standards- wch by & large they make up to suit their own purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 12:32 PM

No.
Conforming to International Law according to UN.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 12:47 PM

You're confusing 'legal' with 'justified' and 'legitimate' and- dare I say?- moral.


Voice of America News 1 Sept. 2011

"A long-awaited U.N. panel report on the Israeli raid of a Turkish aid ship bound for the Gaza Strip was leaked Thursday by the New York Times. In it, the panel found that Israel used excessive and unreasonable force during its raid of the Mavi Marmara last year, but concluded that the naval blockade of Gaza is legal under international law."

"The panel says the action of the Israeli commandos "seems to us to have been too heavy a response too quickly" and "it was an excessive reaction to the situation." They conclude that "the operation should have been better planned and differently executed." The report notes that seven of the dead suffered multiple gunshot wounds."

"The report criticized the loss of life resulting from the Israeli raid as "unacceptable." It said Israel has not provided a "satisfactory explanation" for the killings of the nine Turks, most of whom it says were "shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range."

"The U.N. panel did recommend that Israel should express regret and compensate the victims."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 01:43 PM

The Israelis were morally and legally entitled to impose a blockeade to prevent arms reaching Gaza.
They offered to deliver the aid to Gaza from an Israeli port, and that is what eventually happened.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:06 PM

Sorry, Keith, you're inventing things again.

The U. N. Report said that the blockade was "legal", under international law.

It also said the the boarding and its aftermath were a colossal clusterfuck.

Spin it any way you like, it is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:51 PM

The report states that Israel has the right to establish a blockade to prevent weapons from entering Gaza and it has the right to board any vessel heading to Gaza by sea. It also says that the commandos used excessive force when they were attacked by passengers on board the ship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 06:57 PM

Not quite, Bo - See post 02 Sep 11 - 12:47 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 09:15 PM

Excerpts from the UN Report which can be read in PDF format here:
Report of the Secretary-General's Panel of Inquiry on the 31 May 2010 Flotilla Incident

humanitarian missions must respect the
security arrangements put in place by Israel. They must seek prior approval from Israel
and make the necessary arrangements with it. This includes meeting certain conditions
such as permitting Israel to search the humanitarian vessels in question.

The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is
subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces a real
threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was
imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering
Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international
law.

For Israel to maintain the blockade it had to be effective, so it must be enforced.
That is a clear legal requirement for a blockade.344 Such enforcement may take place on
the high seas and may be conducted by force if a vessel resists. To this point in the
analysis no difficulty arises. But the subsequent steps taken raise serious questions as to
whether the enforcement was executed appropriately in the circumstances

Israel's decision to board the vessels with such substantial force at a great
distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior to the
boarding was excessive and unreasonable:
a. Non-violent options should have been used in the first instance. In
particular, clear prior warning that the vessels were to be boarded and a
demonstration of dissuading force should have been given to avoid the type
of confrontation that occurred;
b. The operation should have reassessed its options when the resistance to the
initial boarding attempt became apparent so as to minimize casualties.

133. Israeli Defense Forces personnel faced significant, organized and violent
resistance from a group of passengers when they boarded the Mavi Marmara requiring them to use force for their own protection. Three soldiers were captured,
mistreated, and placed at risk by those passengers. Several others were wounded.
134. The loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces
during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable. Nine passengers were
killed and many others seriously wounded by Israeli forces. No satisfactory
explanation has been provided to the Panel by Israel for any of the nine deaths.
Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times,
including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the
material presented by Israel.

The blockading power is entitled to board a neutral merchant vessel if there are
reasonable grounds to suspect that it is breaching a blockade. The blockading power has
the right to visit and search the vessel and to capture it if found in breach of a blockade.
Breach could occur outside the blockade zone, including on the high seas where there is
evidence of the vessel's intention. If there is clear resistance to the interception or
capture, the blockading power may attack the vessel, after giving a prior warning. The
level of force used to enforce the above-mentioned rights must be proportionate; in
particular, it must be limited to the level necessary to achieve the military objective.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:20 PM

Please note:

But the subsequent steps taken raise serious questions as to
whether the enforcement was executed appropriately in the circumstances.

Israel's decision to board the vessels with such substantial force at a great distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior to the boarding was excessive and unreasonable:

a. Non-violent options should have been used in the first instance. In
particular, clear prior warning that the vessels were to be boarded and a demonstration of dissuading force should have been given to avoid the typeof confrontation that occurred;

b. The operation should have reassessed its options when the resistance to the initial boarding attempt became apparent so as to minimize casualties.

134. The loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable. Nine passengers were killed and many others seriously wounded by Israeli forces. No satisfactory explanation has been provided to the Panel by Israel for any of the nine deaths.
Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:26 PM

Please note:

133. Israeli Defense Forces personnel faced significant, organized and violent
resistance from a group of passengers when they boarded the Mavi Marmara requiring them to use force for their own protection. Three soldiers were captured,
mistreated, and placed at risk by those passengers. Several others were wounded.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:40 PM

The panel's recommendations for rapprochement: (which are reasonable in my opinion)

• An appropriate statement of regret should be made by Israel in respect of
the incident in light of its consequences.

• Israel should offer payment for the benefit of the deceased and injured
victims and their families, to be administered by the two governments
through a joint trust fund of a sufficient amount to be decided by them.

• Turkey and Israel should resume full diplomatic relations, repairing their
relationship in the interests of stability in the Middle East and
international peace and security. The establishment of a political
roundtable as a forum for exchanging views could assist to this end.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:08 AM

The aid reached Gaza, and would have got there much quicker via an Israeli port.
The passengers started the violence, attacking the boats before any boardings, and the commandos as they descended.
Many passengers had expressed a determination to be killed fighting Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:09 AM

And Greg, exactly what did I make up?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 07:03 AM

Let's not forget (Keith, bobad) that according to the UN itself (in the shape of UNCHR) the blockade is illegal. Not that I'm too concerned about judgments from the UN, or from any ad hoc panel it cobbles together for the express purpose of finding a form of words that can get two of America's buddies (probably the last two, if Doug R is to be believed) talking again.

It is enough for me that Israel's reckless behaviour has cost it another friend, just when the country is being rocked by demonstrations that have gone virtually unreported in the US and UK, and by simmering conflict between zealots and secularists. Happy days!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 08:30 AM

Peter, the legality of the blockade is not a "judgement from the UN" rather the determination is based on international law and the applicable international legal principles are cited in the report if you had bothered to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:06 PM

yup- the conclusions drawn by the members of the U.N. panel resulting from their inquiry and the "applicable international legal principles" as interpreted by that panel.

But in no way is it a "judgement" from the U.N.

Right you are..........

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 06:23 PM

I think it reasonable to assume that they had advice from some of the best lawyers in the world on the issue.
Greg, you said I made stuff up.
Did you make that up, or was there something?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 08:25 PM

The pros and cons of this situation have gone round and round without a resolution. It seems as if the arguments here depict an unshakeable orientation without agreement on opposing views.

My contention is that Israel and the US are occupiers. The only way to resolve this conflict is through non-violence. One way to support the Palestinians is to consider supporting the BDS (Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions) toward Israel.
This is one way to force them to the table to negotiate.

From what I can gather, through Ha'eretz and other sources, Israelis are divided on the occupation of Gaza and what is really at loggerheads here is the Netanyahu
recalcitrance with some of the Israeli people.

Israel through Netanyahu is taking an isolationist position, a defensive paranoid
military approach and I wonder how much real backing he has.

There is an underlying problem here in that Israel is becoming less democratic and more theocratic.

There is another underlying problem with Palestinian religious orientation which at this point is not entirely secular.

As we wrestle in the US with the same issue, separation of Church and State, and the possibility of a president who is persuaded that the US Constitution should turn into the Ten Commandments and that Christians have dominion over government, there is the similar problem of religious strife in the Mid-East that dictates the divisions between not only Jews and Arabs but Arabs against Arabs.
fighting over territory.

The mistake that Egypt made was to turn their fledgling new government over to the military which means that the decisions are authoritarian and not favorable
to the Gazans, so Carol's concerns here are justified.

We have to face facts that theocratic decisions are being made in Israel and Gaza
and this compounds the problem.

The UN at this point as abnegated its responsibility to resolving this issue of occupation and legality of borders and who owns Gaza's waters. The US has made its position clear and this may be one of the reasons the UN is being bullied.

BDS might send a message that occupation is not the answer for Israel.