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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 02:35 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:47 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 02:50 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:53 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM
freda underhill 05 Jun 10 - 03:41 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 05:58 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 10 - 06:15 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Jun 10 - 06:58 PM
Lox 05 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM
Ed T 05 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM
t.jack 05 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM
t.jack 05 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM
mousethief 05 Jun 10 - 10:35 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 10:55 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 12:08 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:11 AM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 12:20 AM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 12:22 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:35 AM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 12:41 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:22 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:52 AM
t.jack 06 Jun 10 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 10 - 07:32 AM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 08:46 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM
Lox 06 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM
John MacKenzie 06 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 10:26 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM

And, you, like all of us, are intitled to opinions and personal measurement of slimy governments. But, I found your statement, that, "The Israeli government are just about the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine", (while eye-catching) does a diservice to all others directly impacted by slimy actions by governments.

Maybe so. Let me rephrase - The people in the Israeli government are some of the slimiest and most reprehensible people I can possibly imagine.



Look, what I am saying is that the poster's assertion that the walls were put up for the same purpose is untrue - that's all.


Yes, that's quite true. The wall around East Berlin was to keep people from being able to leave the city to live elsewhere. The wall around Gaza is to help Israel commit an act of genocide against the population that lives within the wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

"The wall around Gaza is to help Israel commit an act of genocide against the population that lives within the wall."

That is untrue, the purpose of the barrier is to help keep suicide bombers out.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM

The wall couldn't keep suicide bombers out if they really wanted to use that as a tactic. The wall is keeping people in, and food and other supplies out. People are dying because of it. This is an act of genocide.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM

I realize that the purpose for the wall doesn't accord with your ideological position but if you look at the statistics of the number of suicide bombings since the wall was mostly built you will find a strong correlation.

"Members of al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad have been less able to conduct attacks in Israel, the numbers of which have decreased in areas where the barrier has been completed"

Some opinions from jihadists:

"Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Abdallah Shalah complained to the Qatari newspaper Al-Sharq that the separation barrier "limits the ability of the resistance to arrive deep within [Israeli territory] to carry out suicide bombing attacks, but the resistance has not surrendered or become helpless, and is looking for other ways to cope with the requirements of every stage" of the intifada."

"Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Salah said that the barrier is an important obstacle, and that "if it weren't there, the situation would be entirely different."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:35 PM

The Apartheid Wall, which separates Palestinian farmers from their lands, and has required the 'relocation' of some 60,000 established olive and other fruit trees growing within the Security Fence is described by the official Israeli government site as
"being built with the sole purpose of saving the lives of the Israeli citizens who continue to be targeted by the terrorist campaign that began in 2000."

HOWEVER -

According to Haaretz
"The security fence is no longer mentioned as the major factor in preventing suicide bombings, mainly because the terrorists have found ways to bypass it"

From the official government report again -

"The land used in building the Security Fence is seized for military purposes, not confiscated, and it remains the property of the owner."

63 shops straddling the Green Line were demolished by the IDF during construction of the wall in the village of Nazlat Issa.
In August 2003, an additional 115 shops and stalls (an important source of income for several communities) and five to seven homes there were also demolished.

In addition to loss of land, in the city of Qalqilyah one-third of the city's water wells lie on the other side of the barrier

The United Nations Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA) estimates that in the north of the West Bank approximately 80 per cent of Palestinians who own land on the other side of the barrier have not received permits from the Israeli authorities, and hence cannot cultivate their fields

"The government of Israel recognizes that the security fence is a temporary tool needed to protect innocents while diplomatic efforts for a lasting peace continue."

So temporary that it is an approved 436 miles long and, in some areas, an 8 metre tall concrete wall.

In a 2004 advisory opinion, the International Court of Justice considered that "Israel cannot rely on a right of self-defence or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall".
The Court found that "the construction of the wall, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law

The Red Cross has declared the barrier in violation of the Geneva Convention. On February 18, 2004, The International Committee of the Red Cross stated that the Israeli barrier "causes serious humanitarian and legal problems" and goes "far beyond what is permissible for an occupying power"


Ironically the Apartheid Wall is also opposed by some Israelis......

"The Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish People as the Bible and the God of Israel has indicated.
If the Arabs wish to live in a Jewish State under Israel sovereignty, they must do so in a peaceful and tolerant manner.

The solution to terror is thus not erecting a fence but completely destroying the Palestinazi Authority; expelling all supporters of terror and reinstalling Jewish-Israeli control and sovereignty over all of Judea, Samaria and Gaza."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM

He's talking about the wall around Gaza, which conforms to its borders.


bobad, provide some sources for your quotes, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM

Song of the Olive Tree Leon Rosselson


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:47 PM

Also, bobad, if they were so concerned with suicide bombers, why did they put Israeli citizens in colonies inside the wall for several years?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:50 PM

Sorry I didn't mean to refer to Gaza, didn't even know there was a wall around Gaza, I am referring to the Security barrier.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 02:53 PM

Well, that's just a joke bobad. A suicide bomber could easily get around that wall. A lot of the wall doesn't separate Palestinians from Israel, it separates Palestinians from their own fields and villages, as Emma said. That wall is an apartheid confiscatory wall what is being built to create facts on the ground and steal more land from the Palestinians and make it impossible for them to live.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM

http://www.therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=5229


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:41 PM

Great song, Emma.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jun/04/confrontation-off-gaza-orwellian-spin/


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM

I was at the concert where Leon Rosselson performed that song on the video - it was a moving moment
The song is on his CD 'Turning Silence into Song'

The real story behind the song

- The Inventory of Conflict and Environment (ICE) intends to provide a common basis and method for looking at issues of conflict and environment.
The site was conceived of by Dr. James R. Lee
American University, The School of International Service
4400 Massachusetts Ave. NW. Washington, DC.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM

"Indeed. If we can't get our governments to take a stand, then an international boycott is a good starting point for the rest of us."
A Meeting of trades unionists, politicians, clerics et-al has just called for such a boycott to be put in place in Irealand.
"Since Israel put theirs up to help keep suicide bombers out"
Did they - I was under the impression that they put it up to ghettoise the Palestinians and to lower their standard of life in order to starve them out. The wall conveniently cuts many of the Palastinian farms in half, thus depriving their owners of a livelihood - Emma B said all that has to be said on this red herring. Wall building is a tried and trusted technique last used to some effect by the Nazis in Warsaw. As has been more than adequately pointed out, walls don't keep out determined resistance of any form, see the Berlin Wall and, for that matter, the one around the Warsaw Ghetto.
It will be interesting to find out the truth of the claim coming from one of Israel's strongest allies (up to now) that several of the victims of Israel's act of piracy earlier this week were executed by a single bullet in the back of the head. This can only add to the Irraeli Army's growing reputation as one of the most thuggish in the world.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Speaking of boycotts...

Swedish harbor workers have declared a blockade on Israeli ships and goods.

I read somewhere that this is happening in other countries as well, but I don't remember which ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM

The hasbara people are now conducting an intimidation campaign in private messages all over the internet. In Facebook today, a Muslim friend told me she had received a hate message, and I was just now told in a private message that I am a self-hating Jew.

LOL That's a first for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

From Amnesty International 18 January 2010

"Israel claims that the ongoing blockade of Gaza, in force since June 2007, is a response to the indiscriminate rocket attacks launched from Gaza into southern Israel by Palestinian armed groups.

The reality is that the blockade does not target armed groups but rather punishes Gaza's entire population by restricting the entry of food, medical supplies, educational equipment and building materials," said Malcolm Smart, Middle East and North Africa Director, Amnesty International.

"The blockade constitutes collective punishment under international law and must be lifted immediately."

As the occupying power, Israel has a duty under international law to ensure the welfare of Gaza's inhabitants, including their rights to health, education, food and adequate housing

During Operation "Cast Lead", from 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, 13 Israelis were killed, including three civilians in southern Israel, where dozens more were injured in indiscriminate rocket attacks by Palestinian armed groups.

In Gaza, Israeli attacks damaged or destroyed civilian buildings and infrastructure, including hospitals and schools, the water and electricity systems. Thousands of Palestinian homes were destroyed or severely damaged.

An estimated 280 of the 641 schools in Gaza were damaged and 18 were destroyed. More than half of Gaza's population is under the age of 18 and the disruption to their education, due to the damage caused during Operation "Cast Lead" and as a result of the continuing Israeli boycott, is having a devastating impact.

Hospitals have also been badly affected by the military offensive and the blockade.

Trucks of medical aid provided by the World Health Organization have been repeatedly refused entry to Gaza without explanation by Israeli officials.

Patients with serious medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza continue to be prevented or delayed from leaving Gaza by the Israeli authorities – since the closure of crossings leading into and out of Gaza, patients have been made to apply for permits, but these permits are frequently denied. On 1 November 2009, Samir al-Nadim, a father of three children, died after his exit from Gaza for a heart operation was delayed by 22 days."

BUT!

THE BLOCKADE IS MORE THAN JUST THE WALL!

Effect on Gaza fishing industry

The sea blockade has caused the "near collapse" of the Gaza fishing industry. Israel allows fishermen to travel only 3 nautical miles off shore, reduced from 6 nm in 2007.

One fisherman who went outside these limits was forced to strip down to his underwear and swim to the naval vessel.
He was blindfolded, handcuffed and taken in for questioning.
B'Tselem has released a report documenting the "continual shooting at, abuse of, and humiliation of" Palestinian fishermen.
The Israeli Navy's response was that it was checking for smuggled weapons. The Navy reports they intercepted the craft entering Gaza from Egypt.
B'Tselem has released a report documenting the "continual shooting at, abuse of, and humiliation of" Palestinian fishermen.

Israel claims to have further reduced the fishing zone to 3 nautical miles, but in fact is attacking Palestinian fishermen and other civilians even on shore

The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has estimated that Gaza fishermen need to journey at least 12-15 nautical miles from shore to catch larger shoals, and sardines in particular are 6 nm offshore.
Shoals closer to shore have been depleted.

The total catch in 1999 was nearly 4,000 tons in pre-blockade 1999. This was reduced to 2,700 tons in 2008.

In the 90s, the Gaza fishing industry was worth $10 million annually or 4% of the total Palestinian economy; this was halved between 2001 and 2006.
45,000 Palestinians were employed in the fishing industry, employed in jobs such as catching fish, repairing nets and selling fish.
Fish also provided much-needed animal protein to Gazans diet.

From New Scientist
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16513-conflict-leaves-gazas-agriculture-in-ruins.html


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

You know one can't help thinking that if Hamas pledged to do all it could to stop rockets being sent into Israel then there would be no need for the measures Israel is taking to ensure that. Just two days ago four rockets were launched into southern Israel - and on it goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM

Hamas did pledge to to that, bobad. And they are doing everything they can to stop the rockets. But Israel has almost completely destroyed the Gazan infrastructure, and Israel killed a lot of their law enforcement people, so they have a lot working against them, and not much working in their favor.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 05:58 PM

The friend in Gaza whose words I quoted previously in this thread just said this...


"i am so proud to be Palestinian !! so proud to be from Gaza !! so proud of all this people who are standing on our side and beliving in our rights !!
love you all ♥ ♥ !! and i want so badly , to see you all here in Gaza !!"


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:15 PM

"You know one can't help thinking that if Hamas pledged to do all it could to stop rockets being sent into Israel then there would be no need for the measures Israel is taking to ensure that."
Dream on - the occupation and the atrocities happened a long time before the rocket attacks - this is, and always has been a totally offensive action by the Israelis in order to expand its borders.
Try asking them if the rocket attacks stopped would they return the occupied territory to its rightful owners.
Israel is a fanatic terrorist nation; the fact that they are a nuclear fanatical terrorist nation gives one pause for thought - don't you think?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM

"this is, and always has been a totally offensive action by the Israelis in order to expand its borders."

What Jim says is backed up totally in an article in today's Huffington Post by

Dr. Geoffrey Wawro , the General Olinto Mark Barsanti Professor of Military History and Director of the Military History Center at the University of North Texas. He is the author of Quicksand: America's Pursuit of Power in the Middle East

He heads his article "A Head for an Eye' - the limits of 'escalation dominance'

Israel has long defended itself through a "doctrine of retaliatory action," which President Eisenhower angrily characterized in 1955 -- after savage Israeli reprisal raids into Gaza and Jordan -- as "more like a head for an eye than an eye for an eye."

The doctrine has not worked since Israel's 2006 invasion of Lebanon, which, in common with Gaza today, was launched to punish missile attacks (from Hezbollah country) and force the release of two Israeli soldiers seized by Lebanese guerrillas and carried back across the border.

Today, Israel is blockading and intermittently pummeling Gaza (about 1,200 Palestinians were killed in the January 2009 "Gaza War") to secure the release of Sergeant Gilad Shalit, who was abducted in 2006, and to stop the sputter of missile attacks from Hamas country.

But, as events in Gaza now demonstrate, escalation dominance no longer works, and Netanyahu is exposed as having no new usable doctrine to replace it.

The first cracks appeared in the Lebanon War of 2006. When Hezbollah paramilitaries fired Katyusha rockets into northern Israel and seized two Israeli sergeants from a Humvee patrolling the border, Israel reflexively demanded "a head for an eye."
"If the soldiers are not released," the IDF chief of staff growled, "we will turn Lebanon's clock back twenty years."

He wasn't kidding. Israeli airstrikes took out bridges, roads, airports, harbors, water and sewage treatment plants, power grids, schools, hospitals, shops and homes. At least 1,000 Lebanese civilians were killed in the campaign, several hundred Hezbollah fighters, and 121 Israeli troops and 43 Israeli civilians. The attempt at escalation dominance -- ratcheting the rocket attacks and kidnappings into a knock-out blow against Hezbollah -- failed. The two kidnapped soldiers were returned -- in a prisoner exchange -- but they were dead. Hezbollah lived on, and has been rearmed.

Israel was condemned for its disproportionate use of force everywhere but the Bush White House.

Operation Cast Lead in Gaza in December 2008-January 2009 repeated the methods of Lebanon. More than a thousand Palestinians were killed -- including hundreds of civilians -- and factories, workshops, mosques, homes and water treatment plants were destroyed.

When Israel escalates and takes a "head for an eye," it no longer enjoys the respect or connivance of the international community."

full article


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 06:58 PM

The parallels between apartheid South Africa and Israel are striking - as is the evidence for co-operation between the two regimes, including nuclear weaponry co-operation - Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons (From The Guardian a few days ago.)

The case seems clear for an economic, cultural and sporting boycott similar to that which helped to change things for the better in South Africa, for all its people.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM

"That's because the wall was put up by their own government. So who are they going to kill, themselves?"

Yes - well their own subjects anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM

Another political perspective:
http://www.alarabiya.net/views/2010/06/04/110460.html


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM

Well,well,well.Its a little like blah, blah,blah ??Canadas position on this matter of high sea piracy is water off a ducks arse..
The CANADIAN PEOPLE not the rigged media polls are dead against this or any other bulling on the planet..Our democraticly selected bottom feeders have no spine or spunk to dig a good bucket a clams.   
Joe CANADA beer buddy don`t stand a rats ass in addressing this terrible atrocity..Last night on TV Ontario there was a debate by 5 members of a panel regarding this issue they were all Jews??
What am i or Joe CANADA to make out a dis. Am i to listen to this waste of tax dollar ?Are we so blind to come up with some rational conclusion ? or more questions?I am JOE CANADA and i and all of the people i know or ever new which is quite a few do not support this utter garbage that the media throws at us..I tell my Jewish friends that Israeli gives Jews a bad name...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM

I also urge the jews to take a stand ..I will NOT knowingly buy any product or service from Israel ..Get this Our Canadian Gov`t just recently asked Israel to monitor our airports security??
What the F--k is that about?
No more ( MK ) ( TK ) or ( K )food for me, i`ll bless my own
THANK YOU!!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:35 PM

Now Noam Chomsky can be turned back at Niagara.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 10:55 PM

Here's the video that proves the Israelis opened fire first, in a YouTube viewer (which makes it easier to find than the one that was embedded in the large page that I provided before). In it we can see the correspondent saying that there are wounded people on the ship before any of the Israeli terrorists had even left the helicopter...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g

And here's some more information about the killed people (that we know about, there are several people who are still missing). They left behind 28 fatherless children...

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129187§ionid=351020202


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM

This is "democracy" as it is experienced by Arabs in Israel. This is MK Haneen Zoabi, a Palestinian Israeli, who was aboard the Freedom Flotilla. She was the one who was trying to get help for the wounded by calling for help for them in Hebrew. Her calls for help were ignored by the Israelis, and several people bled to death because of it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRf0aB3BNEY


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:08 AM

Boycott Israeli goods

Cool ... the only consumer goods imported to Canada that I'm aware of are Naot shoes and some brand of matzo ... not in need on any new shoes and passover isn't until next spring ... as if anyone reading this thread buys Naot shoes, and/or that particular brand of matzo or any other made in Israel product.


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:11 AM

Do you have Teva sandals there, Bill?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:20 AM

BTW .... "I tell my Jewish friends that Israeli gives Jews a bad name"

no 'Israeli' doesn't give Jews a bad name ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name ... the actions of concerns that are the subject of this thread are of the Israeli government ... NOT JEWS.

Unfortunately antisemitics will use the actions of the Israeli government to espouse and promote the hatred of Jews not only in Israel, but worldwide.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:22 AM

Do I have Teva sandals ... nope. I wear Mexican handmade huaraches.

Teva must be part of Naots.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:35 AM

Sorry. I didn't mean you specifically. I was wondering if they sold them up where you are. Mexican huaraches are great.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:41 AM

I haven't seen Tevas for a few years up here.

Mexican huaraches are incredible ..... the rawhide leather and the old tire treads just don't wear out ... comfortable as hell also!

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:22 AM

I'm jealous, Bill.


On another note, I'm totally gobsmacked to see something like this in USA Today. I never, never would have expected it...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-06-04-bisharat04_ST_N.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:52 AM

"But Mr Ovenden told the Morning Star: 'This was a peaceful humanitarian mission in international waters. The youngest person on board was not yet one, the oldest was 88 years old.

'We had no weapons on board. The Israelis are displaying knives taken from the kitchen. People did defend themselves with whatever was at hand.

'The attack started with percussion grenades and we feared they would use tear gas. The Israeli commandos attacked from all sides and began shooting almost immediately, initially with so-called rubber bullets but certainly within two or three minutes we heard the unmistakable sound of live rounds.

'A colleague from Viva Palestina, Nicci Enchmarch, was next to a Turkish man who was holding a camera. He was shot through the middle of the forehead. The exit wound blew away the back of his skull and she cradled him in her arms as he died.'

At least four of those killed were shot through the head, he said.

Mr Ovenden praised the Turkish crew of the vessel as "truly heroic in their attempts to prevent further loss of life," saying they had taken two injured Israeli soldiers inside the ship to prevent them being hurt further in the panic and chaos.

Appeals to the Israeli forces telling them their soldiers were safe and that there were wounded people who needed assistance were ignored, he said."


http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/91138


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:23 AM

LIKE I SAID   ( ISRAEL )gives jews a bad name..What is this about a jewish State??Does this mean all within is jewish like the good ol boys club passing the talking stick around or lets spin the bottle for our next bottom feeder leader??
Now let me see,everything i eat in CANADA comes form Jewish owned shopping centers,everything i ware comes from jewish owned factories very thing i here and see comes from jewish controlled TV and radio stations. I just got married with a diamond ring from jewish diamond mining company that has devastated the pristine forests of North West Territories ?and how do CANADIANS feel you ask?Is this collective monopoly of goods and services laws ie.(gun control) and law inforcers,and imigration over seen by CANADIANS ? I think not.
The big excuse is to call my facts anti semetic? I think not. The very fact that it is called a jewish state shows how anti EVERYTHING this state is.who calls the kettle black .Anyone for a bagle? Only in CANADA i say??


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:32 AM

"no 'Israel' doesn't give Jews a bad name ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name"
Unfortunately this isn't true. Sure, there are plenty of anti-Semites around who will use Israel's viciousness to fuel and promote their own bigotry, but hiding behind the 'anti- Semitism' argument to defend that viciousness is despicable. It demeans all the Jews in history who have suffered through real anti-Semitism, most recently those who suffered and died at hands of the Nazis in the ghettos and concentration camps of Europe.
People see Israel as the Jewish State and are bound to equate how they behave there as representative of Judaism, just as here in Ireland, Travellers are judged by the behaviour of the bad ones because that is the public face of itineracy; and for that matter, how the Irish themselves were judged during the recent 'Troubles'.
Acts of State terrorism, piracy, assasination, random executions, the murder of innocent women and children, illegal seizure of territory, torture, the use of chemical weapons on civilians, the deliberate act of destroying peoples' homes, the incarceration of opponents as political prisoners, the persistant abuse of human rights and what verges on ethnic cleansing - criticism of such acts have nothing whatever to do with anti-Semitism; they are an assessment of a repressive regime out of control.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:46 AM

As I said ... only the ignorant and antisemitics give Jews a bad name.

I should rephrase ... ignorant and/or antisemitic.

Jim Carroll ... you are correct .. many people are judged from the political actions of the country of their origin ... I'd say those who do judge as such, would fall under the category of ignorant.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM

'LIKE I SAID   ( ISRAEL )gives jews a bad name..What is this about a jewish State??Does this mean all within is jewish like the good ol boys club passing the talking stick around or lets spin the bottle for our next bottom feeder leader??
Now let me see,everything i eat in CANADA comes form Jewish owned shopping centers,everything i ware comes from jewish owned factories very thing i here and see comes from jewish controlled TV and radio stations. I just got married with a diamond ring from jewish diamond mining company that has devastated the pristine forests of North West Territories ?and how do CANADIANS feel you ask?Is this collective monopoly of goods and services laws ie.(gun control) and law inforcers,and imigration over seen by CANADIANS ? I think not.
The big excuse is to call my facts anti semetic? I think not. The very fact that it is called a jewish state shows how anti EVERYTHING this state is.who calls the kettle black .Anyone for a bagle? Only in CANADA i say?? '

Tamarack jack's post here is a perfect example of the muddle-headedness of some contributors [& also of many of un/ misinformed folk all over]



********


Please, please don't confuse all Jews in other countries [also in Israel] of being perfectly in tune & in favour of their [Israel's] govts policies.

There's clear evidence from many parts of the globe including inside Israel itself of the sheer outrage felt by most fair-minded people.

*********

Confusing the issue this way is similar to labelling all Muslims as terrorists - which they definitely are not, & other national stereotypes based on inter cultural ignorance


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM

Furthermore, in all honesty, do the mass of any country or nation always agree/ condone / actively support the mandate of their govts all the time, particularly, as in this case, foreign policy.

We all recall the damage the last UK govt did themselves following their acquiescence in following the Bush regime's illegal invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

The events of 31st May were carried out by The Israeli Defence force on behalf of the Israeli National Government.

The Israeli National Government is made up of those politicians who won the most votes.

It does not represent the views of All Israelis.

It certainly does not represent the views of all Jews.


Tamarack Jack.

It is imortant to be clear about what you boycott.

Boycotting Israeli goods is an legitimate way of inflicting personal sanctions on the Israeli state in protest of its administrations actions.

A blanket boycott of Jewish businesses is not a way of protesting the actions of the Israeli state.

A blanket Boycott of Jewish businesses in Canada or anywhere else outside Israel clearly constitutes Anti-semitism.

The events of May 31st are not an excuse to scapegoat Jews.

I would like to read a clarification from you that you mean to Boycott Israeli goods and not Jewish goods.

If you advocate boycotting all Jewish produce, or scapegoating all Jews in any other way, you can count on full on opposition from me on this thread.

I await your clarification.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

Thank you Mr. Happy, thank you Lox. Right on.


There has been, and currently still is to much hate and anger in this world.

The only hope we have is through understanding, tolerance, humanity and love for our fellow human beings. Only then can these solutions be found.

peace
biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

If your neighbour threatened to kill you and wipe you off the face iof this earth, would you be happy to let him fill his house with weapons and explosives?
This is the unfortunate situation that Israel finds itself in.
For anybody from the USA where the right to bear arms is sacrosanct to criticise a countyry for protecting itself from overt threats, would seem to me to be hypocrisy of the highest order.
I'm sure that, like me, the majority of Israelis want peace with Palestine, but until Hamas and their allies in Iran and other Israel hating countries cease their attempts to obliterate Israel, what else can they do?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:26 AM

Neither Iran nor the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, John. What all of them want is for the Palestinians to have all of the same rights as everyone else. And they want the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians to stop.

Remember, it was the Jewish paramilitaries in the months just prior to Israel declaring itself a state, who actually did drive the Palestinians into the sea.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM

"Neither Iran nor the Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth"
How is the accuracy of this statement determined?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

Hamas has said that they will accept Israel's existence within the pre '67 borders. And Iran has never said or done anything that would even remotely indicate a desire to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.


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