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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 10:40 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 10:55 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 11:15 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM
Emma B 06 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 11:37 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 11:55 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM
Emma B 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 12:52 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM
John MacKenzie 06 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 03:01 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 03:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 03:23 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 03:27 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 04:01 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM
robomatic 06 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM
John MacKenzie 06 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:40 AM

Questions for consideration (though I suspect this has been debated many times before in Mudcat).

Is it logical for the government in Israel to take the Hamas Charter (elected government of Gaza, and leadership of the Palistians ), and public statements of the leader of Iran seriously? Has the Hamas charter officially changed, since it was established?

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM

As to Iran's leader Is CNN wrong, or has this position changed?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM

"I'd say those who do judge as such, would fall under the category of ignorant."
Yes, but understandably so, and (quite apart for its own inhuman activities) Israel has to bear its share of the blame for the image it projects of Judaism.
"This is the unfortunate situation that Israel finds itself in."
No it isn't - it is in the position of having illegally occupied its neighbour's house (using your own analogy) and facing the consequences of having done so. The women and children non-combatants killed and maimed by Israeli weapons should not be part of this, yet they have been deliberately targeted by the occupiers - I think the euphamism created elsewhere is 'collateral damage'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 10:55 AM

Ed, Hamas has indicated that they are willing to accept Israel within its '67 borders. They are not willing to revise their charter until they see some indication that Israel will discontinue its long standing program of wiping the Palestinians off the map.

And that CNN article is a pack of lies (no surprise there). What Ahmadinejad quoted from Khomeini was a prediction that eventually, the zionist regime in Jerusalem will be wiped from the pages of time in the same way that the Soviet Union was. He neither mentioned wiping Israel from the map, nor called for anything whatever to be done to Israel. And Komeini is right about that. The zionist regime is in the process of self-destructing right now. It doesn't have very much time left.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM

"Hamas has indicated that they are willing to accept Israel within its '67 borders. They are not willing to revise their charter until they see some indication that Israel will discontinue its long standing program of wiping the Palestinians off the map"

So, where has Israel stated they will "wipe the Palestinians off the map'? (Could some folks be doing what they claim CNN has done)?

This alonbe lies a logical divide and what seems to be a good basis of distrust on both sides.

The CNN story I linked to was widely reported in the media world-wide, and commented on by many national governments, with the same interpretation. It seems quite clear (and,easily interpreted as a threat< if you are on the receiving lines) and if it was inaccurate, where is the later Iran leadership clearification? Sorry, CarolC, I suspect Iran speaks for itself, so sources, rather than outside interpretations, are important. Governments rarely make statements that can be interpreted as treats by another nation, unless they mean it as such.

Seems like a good reason to be concerned, if you


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:15 AM

The rest of my last sentence:

Seems like a good reason to be concerned, if you could be on the receiving end?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM

http://www.freegaza.org/


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM

"Israel has to bear its share of the blame for the image it projects of Judaism."

Apart from the appalling humanitarian crisis brought about by the blockade of Gaza .....

Settlements on occupied territory are illegal under international law and even Israeli military lawyers decreed that settlements are illegal when the government first started to allow construction after the 1967 war.

Today, half a million Israelis - 10% of the Jewish population - live in illegal settlements.

In the past, U.S. administration would utter words about stopping settlements but then never follow with pressure. Israelis took this as a green light and continued with construction.

Obama initially attempted to break that tide by ruling out any new construction even for the Israeli euphemism of "natural growth".
However, Defense Minister Ehud Barak in June 2009 nevertheless responded by authorizong the building of 300 new homes in the West Bank, defying U.S. calls for a halt to settlement growth.

The new construction is located around 13 kilometers east of the Green Line, on the "Palestinian" side of the separation barrier. According to the Sasson Report, this outpost was built without government approval and without a master plan and damaged private Palestinian property.

British citizens - following real estate fairs in recent years in London and Manchester that have advertised properties for sale in Israeli settlements such as Maale Adumim and Har Homa (both in the West Bank) - were to be formally advised by the government not to buy property in settlements in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories
The UK government has long insisted that settlements beyond the pre-1967 war "green line" border, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights — both of which have been annexed by Israel — are illegal.

Settler violence has frequently caused concern.

The Israeli government depicts violent settlers as aberrant citizens engaged in rogue behaviour. But a report released by the UN's Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) says these ultranationalists have been encouraged by the state to take over Palestinian land and natural resources.

Proponents of the settlements in the occupied terrorties argue that the settlements are actually supporting the US

"Israel is fully entitled to expand existing settlements or build new ones in the disputed territories.
Netanyahu is to be commended for resisting intense international pressure in order to engage in the former and to reserve the right to undertake the latter after final status negotiations have been completed.
By so doing, he is engaging in the well-established Israeli practice of strengthening its physical position in strategic regions, increasing Israel's self-defence capability and undergirding US interests in the region by enhancing the security of America's most reliable ally in the region."

to the historical / religious 'right' to the land

"The so-called West Bank, according to the Bible and tradition, represents the cradle of Jewish civilization, and some Jews, driven by faith and history, wanted to reassert that link"
"The Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish People as the Bible and the God of Israel has indicated......The solution to terror is thus not erecting a fence but completely destroying the Palestinazi Authority; expelling all supporters of terror and reinstalling Jewish-Israeli control and sovereignty over all of Judea, Samaria and Gaza."

The Israeli leadership continues to defy countless UN resolutions pertaining to its policies


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM

Ed, Israel has been in the process of wiping the Palestinians from the map since before it even declared itself a state. It is still doing this in a slow motion ethnic cleansing and genocide. They don't need to state their intention to do it, they just do it, and have been for decades. We don't need to see a declaration of intent from them to know that this is what they are doing. We only need to see what they have been doing and continue to do.


I have already provided more than ample documentation on the subject of the Ahmadinejad quote. But I will go ahead and round it up again just for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM

On the subject of saying that Israel gives Jews a bad name, I also disagree with statements like this. I think that they arise from ignorance most of the time, and sometimes from anti-Semitism. But I think the ignorance can be understood, to some extent, because Israel is so often conflated with Judaism by Israel itself, and by many diaspora Jews.

People who criticize Israel are almost always called anti-Semitic by many Jews. This is a conflation of Israel and Jews generally. And when this happens, it is rare for Jews to come to the defense of the person who has been attacked in this way. So while I totally disagree with the premise that Israel makes Jews look bad, I understand how such ignorance can take place.

I have been attacked many, many times here in the Mudcat by Jews as being anti-Semitic because of my criticism of the government of Israel. I don't recall ever seeing any Jews come to my defense to say that Israel and "the Jews" should not be conflated in this way. Perhaps if more Jews were to do this, fewer people who aren't Jewish would conflate Israel with Jews generally.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:37 AM

Israel has been in the process of wiping the Palestinians from the map since before it even declared itself a state. It is still doing this in a slow motion ethnic cleansing and genocide. They don't need to state their intention to do it, they just do it, and have been for decades. We don't need to see a declaration of intent from them to know that this is what they are doing. We only need to see what they have been doing and continue to do"

CarolC

Well, I suspect this is your, and many other opinions, which is OK.
However, we were discussing a quote that was reported to be made, that is suggested gives grounds for concern in Israel. (this was in reference to another post, where someone stated Israel has reason to duistrust the Palistinians ((Hamas is the leader) and Iran. Then you jump to a personal opinion. In doing so, it could easily lead to a conclusion that domeone representing the Israel leadership has said this, which I suspect could be seen as a tactic that you frown on CNN for doing.

There are few who suggest that Hamas and the Palistinians have a good reason to distrust the Isrel government. The suggestion was that Israel (the government) also has a good reason to distrust Palistian officials, and Iran (which is a major supporter of Hamas, (the majority factor in the elected government, I believe).


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

"So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in Farsi:

"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "regime." pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map." despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

The Proof:

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from)."

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/norouzi.php?articleid=11025



"Ahmadinejad once again fails to call for the annihilation of Israel, despite what you heard on CNN
Posted on February 27, 2010 by Juan

I saw Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren interviewed by Wolf Blitzer on CNN Friday afternoon. Oren said that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had called for the annihilation of Israel, and was therefore speaking of genocide.

It is dreary to see this constant drumbeat of dishonest propaganda. Whatever one thinks of Ahmadinejad or the Iranian regime, one should not misrepresent their statements, since that will lead to bad policy-making.

The Washington Post also wrote, "Ahmadinejad, a Holocaust denier, spoke of Israel's eventual "demise and annihilation". In fact, Ahmadinejad never mentioned Israel as a country at all, and spoke only about what he called the 'Zionist regime.' He favors an admittedly odd form of the 'one state solution' in which Palestinians and at least some Jews would all vote for the same government.

So this is what Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday at a press conference in Damascus:

"Iran, Syria, the Palestinian Resistance and Lebanon are ready to meet any conditions, and we hope that the enemies of the nations of the region will change their course and instead walk beside regional states in cooperation. Insofar as the Zionist regime threatens Lebanon and Syria and prominent personalities of these two countries every day, it must accept its end and grant in their entirety the rights of the Palestinian nation."

That is, Ahmadinejad began by offering an olive branch to any former enemies that wanted to make peace. But he characterized the 'Zionist regime,' i.e. the Israeli government with its current ideology, as intrinsically belligerent, and insisted that this 'regime' must 'accept its own end' and grant Palestinians their full rights (presumably, citizenship and property rights, which they now lack)."

http://www.juancole.com/2010/02/ahmadinejad-once-again-fails-to-call.html


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 11:55 AM

Ed, your post that appears just before my last post makes no sense at all.

I told you I would provide sources for what I said about Ahmadinejad. Had you been willing to exhibit some patience, you would have been rewarded. The material is in my last post.


On the subject of the Palestinians and ethnic cleansing, well, if you think words trump actions, then I think that you are living in a fantasy world.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-04/henning-mankell-diary-of-the-gaza-flotilla-israel/


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM

"So, where has Israel stated they will "wipe the Palestinians off the map'?"
They don't have to, they are in the process of doing so - watch your television; see the tanks obliterating homes, watch thephospherus bombing, the daily oppression and humiliation......
I would take your point a little more seriously if I could find one word of condemnation of the genocide of Palestinians and all the other war crimes committed by the Israeli Army.
Similarly, the Jewish people would be in a far mor credible position if they turned out in their thousands to protest what is being done in the name of Judaism.
As has been stated on numerous occasions - this is not a defensive war on the part of Israel, it is a territorial war waged against the Palestinian people and the main victims are civilians.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

Well CaroleC, is it reasonable that the Israel government would consider either statement, a reason to trust Iran?...as the earlier post (where the current discussion started), contended. And, not I use the word reasonable.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/jun/05/gaza-flotilla-protesters-story?CMP=twt_gu


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

In deploring the construction of the Apartheid Wall and attempting to being to the attention of others the increasing humanitarian crisis in Gaza I too have been labelled anti-semitic by people in this forum.

Far worse, however, is the treatment of those Jewish people throughout the world and in Israel who have also sought to criticise the actions of the Israeli Government.

These courageous people have been labelled 'self-hating' Jews and traitors; eZion calls them
"Jewish Anti-Zionists - The Uncle Yankel Jews"

"....a particular feature of the new European anti-Semitism that has been less commented on. This is the crucial role played by some European Jews themselves, mostly intellectuals or academics, who have responded to the latest assault on the Jewish people by excusing it, justifying it, and in effect joining it.

For the most part, those answering it have been not the long-term, all-out, rabid haters of Israel of the Harold Pinter or (in American terms) Noam Chomsky stripe, who need no excuse and waste no pieties in reviling the Jewish state. "


Dr. Hajo Meyer, a holocaust survivor, spoke in Dublin earlier this year about the lesson he learned from the Nazi Holocaust, which was that "only those who are themselves dehumanised can attempt to dehumanise others, for example to inflict sufferings such as collective punishment. I personally never want to inflict suffering on anybody."
This 86 years old, peace loving humanitarian Jewish scholar human rights activist has been labelled an anti-Semite !

Yael Kahn has described the treatment Dr Meyer received at the hands of pro Israeli Zionists in when speaking in Portcullis House on 27 Jan 10, on Holocaust Memorial Day
He reported that he 'never witnessed such contempt and disrespect to a Holocaust survivor. It is inconceivable that such conduct would have not been labelled anti-Semitic by the same people who were doing the attacking, had Dr Meyer not been anti-Zionist.

It was a personal reminder of an attack on my father, who, like Dr Meyer, grew up in Nazi Germany. My father, Michael Kahn, escaped Nazi Germany in 1937. In 1988 my father joined us at a weekly protest at Dizengoff Circle [in Tel Aviv] against Israeli attacks on Palestinians. He was singled out by Zionist Israelis, who told him in Hebrew: "shame the Nazis didn't finish you off".'

Back in 2002 a peaceful protest by Jewish women was reported as -
"Women In Green will demonstrate at the Rose Garden in Jerusalem (opposite the office of the Prime Minister) during the time the Cabinet is in session on Sunday, against the building of a ghetto wall in the heartland of historic Israel.

The futile act is one that disgraces the dignity and nobility of the Jewish People, and makes a mockery of its basic national aspirations"

This all, as has been said, conflates anti-Zionism with anti-semitism,

defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly ,

Trivializes the meaning and very real existence of anti-semitism,

AND exploits anti-semitism in order to silence debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM

""The Israeli government depicts violent settlers as aberrant citizens engaged in rogue behaviour.""

Then they should have no difficulty in accepting Hamas' assurances that the primitive rockets, devoid of any guidance mechanism, which randomly impact mostly on empty fields in Israel, are being fired by a small number of militants over whom Hamas has no oversight or control.

After all, what's sauce for the goose,...........

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM

Well CaroleC, is it reasonable that the Israel government would consider either statement, a reason to trust Iran?...as the earlier post (where the current discussion started), contended. And, not I use the word reasonable.

I don't think the actual statement is any reason whatever to try to convince the world that Iran is any threat whatever to Israel. To do so is the height of dishonesty, and it shows that Israel has its own reasons for wanting to eliminate the current regime in Iran that have nothing whatever to do with Israel's safety.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM

Flotilla passengers providing aid to wounded Israeli pirate


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

What that last picture shows is the need for Israel to release all of the pictures and video footage that were taken by the flotilla members. Anything short of that is an admission of guilt on the part of the Israeli government.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 12:52 PM

I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians, civilians of Iraq and Afganistan former Russian territories, the Balkins, and bombing from aircraft, tanks, solders, suicide bombers, rockets, artiliary, drones, committed by any government or military, regardless.And I have no pet causes or civilians that I reserve my condemnation for.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM

I have actually seen this Facebook group's page myself...

An israeli group on Facebook asks for the execution of the M.K Haneen Zoabi


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM

""I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians, civilians of Iraq and Afganistan former Russian territories, the Balkins, and bombing from aircraft, tanks, solders, suicide bombers, rockets, artiliary, drones, committed by any government or military, regardless.And I have no pet causes or civilians that I reserve my condemnation for.""

Very laudable in itself, and I would, in principle, subscribe to that view, just as long as it is not being used as a cop-out to avoid addressing specific incidents, such as government sponsored piracy and murder on the high seas.

Captain Morgan would have been so impressed.

I however am not, and I shall continue to say so very loudly, until somebody makes a move to control the international actions of the ISRAELI (not Jewish) GOVERNMENT.

I will purchase nothing grown in, manufactured in, or shipped from, Israel, until they mend their ways.

I hope that there will be many millions more like me.

Let's see what their response is to their oranges rotting in the fields.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

That's nice Ed. In case you misunderstood my post, I was saying that it is the height of dishonesty on the part of the government of Israel and it shows an agenda on the part of the government of Israel that has nothing whatever to do with Israel's safety. Those comments were not directed at you.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

More theft from the Palestinians by the government of Israel...


http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/06/05/poor-gaza-wealthy-in-natural-gas/

"Why the slaughter of ready and willing to die, dirt poor Palestinians?

It appears the Freedom Flotilla sailing to Gaza would go through a thicket of off shore oil and gas rigs and wells. The wells are sucking an estimated minimum of US$6 Billion Dollars of Palestinian off shore Natural Gas through rigs set up for slant drilling.

From Peter Eyre The Palestine Telegraph Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:29 EDT

The drilling consultant on the hidden project is the former Noble Drilling Company of Ardmore, Oklahoma, USA, experts in "oil field management." They are also allegedly experts in illegal slant drilling techniques Noble pioneered in the early Oklahoma oil fields back in the day.

Slant drilling is the best way to steal your neighbors' oil and gas.

So much so that the formerly oil and gas poor Israel of Prime Minister Golda Meir is now floating the idea of Natural Gas exports to the European Union (EU) of presumably Palestinian Natural Gas."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

More aid flotillas are on the way. According to reports I'm seeing, one is supposed to leave next Friday.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

They will still be stopped, they need to check for weapons and explosives.
Israel cannot afford to let explosives disguised as bags of sugar and the like into Gaza.
It has happened before.
BTW it is legal to stop a ship in international waters, if you have good reason to suspect they are smuggling weapons or explosives.
So it isn't technically piracy, as someone said it is, earlier.
I agree that things need to improve, but you need less intransigence on BOTH sides for any peace plan to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM

"I condem any military acts against Palestinian civilians, Israeli civilians......."
Fine - so do the rest of us - so where does this Anti Semitic crap come from?
Now how do you feel about the Israelis occupying Palestinian territory for 40-odd years?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:01 PM

John, more and more flotillas will come, and they will get bigger and bigger, and more and more people will be on them. Every time Israel stops the flotillas, they piss off more and more people. They can't win. It's over already, the only people who haven't yet figured this out are the Israeli government and its supporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:13 PM

Here's more pictures of aid workers providing protection and care to the Israeli terrorist pirates. But instead of recognizing these conscientious humanitarian acts, the government of Israel accuses them of trying to "lynch" the Israeli terrorists and saying that they tried to kidnap them when the aid workers took them below decks to provide first aid...

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/blog-post-israel-hasbara-fails-again-pics-sho


The government of Israel ALWAYS lies. It ALWAYS commits vicious smarmy character assassinations to help it promote its fascist agenda. ALWAYS. The government of Israel can NEVER be believed. Not EVER.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

How about tins of fruit and musical instruments and bags of cement?

A ban on the import of any weapons or explosives to Gaza, the West Bank and also to Israel, now that would make sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM

"Fine - so do the rest of us - so where does this Anti Semitic crap come from?"

I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:23 PM

Well, hell, McGrath, if they want to defend Israel from Hamas, I guess they're going to have to prevent any food from getting in, since that can be used to feed members of Hamas and keep them alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:27 PM

I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way.

This is precisely the kind of thing I'm talking about. Nobody here has said anything that can be remotely construed as an attack on Jews or an expression of hatred towards Jews (with one possible exception that skirts rather close to the line). But Ed is once again making insinuations that people are because of the criticism of the government of Israel in this thread.

So which is it, Ed? Is criticism of the government of Israel an act anti-Semitism? Because if you're saying it is, then you are saying that there is no difference between the government of Israel and Jews generally. You are saying that whatever the government of Israel does is a reflection on all Jews. Do you really intend to make this assertion?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

"I am not anti sematic, but, some here sure seem to lean that way."
So far the only anti-Semitism to appear on this thread has been the accusations of same in postings such as this one.
Once again CarolC said it all - perhaps you would like to be a little more specific in your accusation.
As somebody who grew up in an anti-racist household I find myself highly contemptuous of chancers who use such accusations to defend the indefencible.
And I would like an answer to my previous question (regarding 40 odd years occupation of Palestinian land) - but I don't suppose I'll get one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM

Jim Carroll posted:

"I would take your point a little more seriously if I could find one word of condemnation of the genocide of Palestinians and all the other war crimes committed by the Israeli Army".

"Genocide"-The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. Free online dictionary


In a recent issue of Foreign Affairs....it said that the number of Jews around the world is estimated at 13.1 million, of which 5.4 million live in Israel proper and Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

The total number of Palestinians is estimated at 10.6 million, including 1.4 million in Israel proper, 3.8 million in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, 2.4 million in Jordan, and 3 million in Syria, Lebanon, and elsewhere around the world. (some say that, "by all definitions, 70 percent of Jordon's citizens are Arab Palestinians).

Thus, the overall population in historical Palestine is estimated at 10.6 million, of which 49 percent are Arabs and 51 percent Jews.

I agree, there is alot of very loose of terms (aka crap) and sensational statements on this tread, and it is good to identify it as such, when and where the brown stuff is posted....though it may not be popular by those wishing to spread it among the faithful:)


Source for figures above:

By all definitions, 70 percent of its citizens are Arab Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM

The legal definition of genocide is quite different from that one, Ed. That's another thing I have posted here numerous times.

What Israel is doing in Gaza fits the legal definition of genocide. I don't have time now, but I will provide the documentation later on.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM

Legal, as decided by whom?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM

When it is asserted that all criticism of Israel is "antisemitic", the implication is that Jews everywhere are to be identified with Israel.

The implication of that is that Jews everywhere are responsible for the actions of Israel.

And that is very clearly an antisemitic lie.

In other words, the assertion that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic is itself antisemitic.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:01 PM

Ok, another definition below. It still does not fit:

Resolution 260 (III) United Nations:
Article 2
In the present UN Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article 3


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM

"the assertion that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic is itself antisemitic". That's a good one, LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM

"Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would not give a direct answer, nor clearify his statement on Israel, when questioned in Lally Weymouth's Washington Post interview in September 2006:

"Q: Are you really serious when you say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

"A: We need to look at the scene in the Middle East – 60 years of war, 60 years of displacement, 60 years of conflict, not even a day of peace. Look at the war in Lebanon, the war in Gaza – what are the reasons for these conditions? We need to address and resolve the root problem.

"Q: Your suggestion is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth?

"A: Our suggestion is very clear:... Let the Palestinian people decide their fate in a free and fair referendum, and the result, whatever it is, should be accepted.... The people with no roots there are now ruling the land.

"Q: You've been quoted as saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Is that your belief?

"A: What I have said has made my position clear. If we look at a map of the Middle East from 70 years ago...

"Q: So, the answer is yes, you do believe that it should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

"A: Are you asking me yes or no? Is this a test? Do you respect the right to self-determination for the Palestinian nation? Yes or no? Is Palestine, as a nation, considered a nation with the right to live under humane conditions or not? Let's allow those rights to be enforced for these 5 million displaced people."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

someone with some sense weighs in. . .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Ballgame and the Sideshow
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: June 4, 2010

When I covered the 1982 Lebanon war, I learned something surprising about wars: they attract all kinds of spectators, meddlers, do-gooders and do-badders. They use the conflict and the attention it generates to play out their own identity issues, passions and biases. My favorite in Beirut was a gentleman who showed up in August 1982 as the Palestinian guerrillas were sailing out of Beirut harbor. His name — I am not making this up — was Arthur Blessitt, the "Sunset Boulevard Preacher." He had walked to West Beirut from Israel to pray for peace, dragging a 13-foot-long wooden cross with a little wheel on the bottom.


Arthur was harmless; some of the others, though, were mendacious, which prompted me to promulgate this rule: I adore the Israelis and Palestinians, but God save me from some of their European and American friends. Their grandstanding interventions — like those blockade-busters sailing to Gaza or the wealthy American Jews who fund extremist settlers' housing purchases in Arab East Jerusalem — often fuel the worst trends on either side and divert our energies from the only thing that is important: forging a two-state solution.

So is there anything good happening in that regard? Yes. The effort by the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and Prime Minister Salam Fayyad to build the institutional foundations of a Palestinian state from the ground up — replacing the corrupt, jerry-built structure that Yasir Arafat created and Israel destroyed — is actually making progress. This matters — and must be nurtured.

You see, there are two models of Arab governance. The old Nasserite model, which Hamas still practices, where leaders say: "Judge me by how I resist Israel or America." And: "First we get a state, then we build the institutions." The new model, pioneered in the West Bank by Abbas and Fayyad is: "Judge me by how I perform — how I generate investment and employment, deliver services and pick up the garbage. First we build transparent and effective political and security institutions. Then we declare a state. That is what the Zionists did, and it sure worked for them."

The most important thing going on in this conflict today is that since 2007 the Palestinian Authority, Jordan and the U.S. have partnered to train a whole new West Bank Palestinian security force in policing, administration and even human rights. The program is advised by U.S. Lt. Gen. Keith Dayton — one of the unsung good guys. The Israeli Army has become impressed enough by the performance of the new Palestinian National Security Force, or N.S.F., under Abbas and Fayyad that those forces are now largely responsible for law and order in all the major West Bank towns, triggering an explosion of Palestinian building, investment and commerce in those areas.

Here are highlights: the Jordanians have trained and the Palestinian Authority deployed and equipped five N.S.F. battalions and one Presidential Guard unit, some 3,100 men. Plus, 65 Palestinian first-responders have been trained and are being equipped with emergency gear. A Palestinian National Training Center, with classrooms and dorms, is nearing completion in Jericho so the Palestinians themselves can take over the training. The Palestinian Authority is building a 750-man N.S.F. camp to garrison the new N.S.F. troops — including barracks, gym and parade ground — near Jenin. At the same time, the Palestinian security headquarters are all being rebuilt in every major Palestinian town, starting in Hebron. An eight-week senior leadership training course in Jericho — bringing together the Palestinian police, the N.S.F. and Presidential Guards — has graduated 280 people, including 20 women.

A course for captains and below in how to handle everything from crowd control to elections has also begun. The reinvigorated Palestinian Ministry of Interior is leading the Palestinian security sector transformation, and the Canadians are helping to set up Joint Operations Centers across the West Bank so all Palestinian security services can coordinate via video conferencing. The Canadians are also helping the Palestinians to build a logistics center. Parallel with all this, Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu has reduced Israel's manned checkpoints in the West Bank from 42 to 12.

This won't be politically sustainable for Abbas and Fayyad, though, unless Israel begins to turn full authority over to the Palestinians for their major cities — so-called area A — in the West Bank. Palestinians have to see their new security services as building their state, not cushioning Israel's occupation. There could be a moment of truth here for Israel soon, but at least it will be based on something real.

In sum, this dynamic — Palestinians building real institutions from the ground up and getting Israel to cede to them real authority — is the ballgame. Make it work across the West Bank and find a way to transfer it to Gaza (how about reopening the Israel-Gaza border and letting the new Palestinian N.S.F. control the passages to Israel?) and a two-state solution is possible. Let it fail, and we'll have endless conflict. Everything else is just a sideshow.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM

All of these criteria fit, Ed.

In the present UN Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that this last flotilla contained several members of parliament, including European members of parliament, and also at least two Nobel Prize winners, and a veteran of the USS Liberty who was wounded in Israel's attack on that ship. And there were also popular media people and authors. These are not people who can easily be characterized the way the Israeli government has tried to characterize them, and the people from their home countries are not only pissed off that they were attacked by the Israeli terrorists in the first place, but they are pissed off even more about the Israeli government's libels against them. It is the Israeli government's arrogance that will ultimately cause its destruction. Because of what happened this last time, the number of people who are extremely eager to participate in future flotillas has skyrocketed. This, despite the fact that they know they risk their lives if they do so.

It's all over but the shouting.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM

Bandwagon jumpers cannot hope to be taken seriously. It's a life or death situation, not a stroll down 5th Avenue.
If the REALLY want to change things, let them stand in front of the tanks and guns, not take a sea cruise that they know will end in a free flight home!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM

John, the people for whom it is a life and death situation are the people in Gaza who are dying because of the blockade.

The government of Israel assumes these people won't be taken seriously at their peril. They have pissed off the whole world. Their days are numbered.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM

The United Nations, on Hamas and the incitement (of hate) and to commit genocide against Israel, Judaism and Jews:

"With the Hamas Charter now binding the Palestinian leadership, its call for the destruction of a Member State of the United Nations is in contravention to Article 2 (4) of the 1945 UN Charter. Article 3 (c) of the 1948 Genocide Convention condemns "direct and public incitement to commit genocide," which is punishable under its article 4. The grave situation in Gaza – and not only in Gaza – is linked to the Hamas Charter of religious and racial hatred, which merits debate at the Human Rights Council as soon as possible".
United Nations, HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL, First special session
5 July 2006

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F35F56D79C729663852571CA006C0F4E


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