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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Jun 10 - 04:04 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 04:10 PM
beardedbruce 07 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM
beardedbruce 07 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM
beardedbruce 07 Jun 10 - 04:23 PM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM
pdq 07 Jun 10 - 04:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM
John MacKenzie 07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM
pdq 07 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 05:56 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 07:20 PM
robomatic 07 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM
Ed T 07 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM
Emma B 07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM
pdq 07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM
mousethief 07 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM
t.jack 07 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM
mousethief 07 Jun 10 - 09:54 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 10:09 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 10:14 PM
CarolC 07 Jun 10 - 11:29 PM
CarolC 07 Jun 10 - 11:48 PM
CarolC 07 Jun 10 - 11:52 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 12:10 AM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 12:13 AM
John MacKenzie 08 Jun 10 - 03:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 05:59 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM
Penny S. 08 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 07:40 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM

Well of course "the Blacks" were err like slaves forced there in the first place against their will as err slaves to the whites. And the Mexicans are like descended from the real Americans so it's their land in the first place (except the whites decided to carve it up when they stole it).


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:04 PM

Or something..


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM

PS I didn't actually say I agreed with her comment, I observed how she had been misquoted.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:10 PM

Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

"Mexicans are like descended from the real Americans so it's their land in the first place "


You mean like the Jews, that were driven out of ancient Israel, moved through Spain, England, Germany, and Poland, and then returned to Israel?


They are as much descended from the "Real Israelis" as the Mexicans are of the indians who lived here before the Europeans- though they drove out earlier tribes.

Just askk the Terra del Fuagans ( pardon spelling), or the tribes that used to be where the later tribes settled.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM

"They are as much descended from the "Real Israelis" as the Mexicans"

Come off it man, that's sheer tosh! And I'm like an ancient Gaelic Druid because I have a bit of Irish in me - think I'll seize back Free Derry (just let me get my DNA tests finished up, must be sure about my rightful heritage first of course)! Mexicans never relocated anyplace else, America is their homeland and always has been.
But Like Rig say's that's another story for another day...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM

Hang on a sec ...

Can I juat clarify ...

... is this question of Helen Thomas relevant to this thread?

Does it justify the IDF's behaviour on the Mavi Marmara?

... just wondering as it appears to have been jumped on with some zeal - presumably either as a distraction from the point or just becausde it is something that BB and Bobad can actually say something about.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM

"Mexicans never relocated anyplace else, America is their homeland and always has been. "


Whatever you want to think.


But I don't have to agree with yu.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:23 PM

I am waiting to hear why Israel should not return to the last borders taht Arab nations agreed to- in 1923 when the Arab Palestinian Homeland of TransJordan took 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory away from the Jewish Homeland.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM

"Whatever you want to think."

Where do Mexicans come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:37 PM

There are already two current threads that discuss the right (or lack thereof) of Mexicans moving, by the millions, into somebody else's country.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

I can imagine that that might be well acceptable enough to Palestinians, provided that the deal included a right of return to their homes for the exiles and refugees. It would of course mean an abandonment of the notion of a permanent Jewish majority in the state, whatever it was called.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Mexico?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

Oh joy

Does this mean we're going to argue what genetically is a true Mexican, like you guys did about what is a true Jew?

Lunacy.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM

Well we certainly seem to have moved on from the Flotilla debate ...

another red herring perhaps to avoid the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

...from the website of Rabbi Nesenoff who did the interview with Helen Thomas:

"From 1517 to 1917 Turkey controlled the areas we know as Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Israel. During World War I Turkey supported Germany. When Germany lost the war, Lebanon and Syria was assigned to France... and the area we know as Jordan and Israel was mandated to Great Britain.

The Jews of numerous Arab countries had already begun mass immigration into that area in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria. This Jewish dangerous and painstaking effort to turn uninhabitable marsh and malaria and mire into livable property was actually becoming successful. The Jewish revitalization of the land was paying off and then and only then attracted a large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions than the Arab countries they were living in.

In 1923, the British divided this area and gave 75% of the land to the Arabs and 25% to the Jews. The Arabs launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jews in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936 to 1939 'Arab Revolt.' The British at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became painfully clear to the Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.

The Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs, thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun, led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the problem over to the United Nations.

The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% that the Jews were living in, into a Jewish State and a second Palestinian State. The Jews accepted the UN plan. The Arab Palestinians rejected it. The Arabs still wanted ALL of the land both east AND west of the Jordan River.

On May 14, 1948 the Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became 'Israelis.' On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared 'ISRAEL' were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arabs who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish soldiers or Jewish thugs…. But because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arabs are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight.

The remaining 30% either saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or they were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war.

When the, nineteen month war, ended, Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became today's Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of 'Palestinian Arab refugees.'

In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of that area, and it's called Jordan, or in reality, their ARAB Palestinian state! But that was still not 100% and thus the conflict between Arab and Jew for 'Palestine' continues through wars and continuous Arab terrorist attacks upon Israeli citizens.

This is not about the Holocaust or the 1940s. This is not about Kings Saul, David or Solomon. This is not about throwing Arabs and their loved one's out of their homes. This is not about ancient times.

This is about the creation of a modern country in modern times in a legitimate manner. This is about the blossoming of a fruit that was planted in swamps and marshes and malaria.

This isn't about 70 BCE or 70 AD. This is about 1517, 1880, 1917, 1923, 1936,1939, 1947, and 1948."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM

good one pdq.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM

"This is not about throwing Arabs and their loved one's out of their homes."   But that is precisely what happened, and continues to happen.
..........................

Here is a piece worth reading, from Haaretz last week - "In its hour of need, Israel was let down by Diaspora":

"...If only we had some real friends, friends we could trust implicitly, who could point out the error of our ways. This could be the shining moment of the Jewish Diaspora. They love us, but they also see things from another perspective. We need a strong, unified voice from the Jewish leadership in the United States and Europe telling Israelis enough is enough, you are hurtling down the slippery slope of pariahdom and causing untold damage to yourselves and us. Lift your heads above the ramparts and see that the world has moved on."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:56 PM

"see that the world has moved on"

have we??

We seem to be digging up all the muck from history to argue and fight about.

All sides are guilty of this.

The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM

"The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace."

Right on biLL!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM

"... is this question of Helen Thomas relevant to this thread?"

I would think that it is in that the view she espouses, that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread. This idea is offensive to many people and is considered to be antisemitic as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:20 PM

"the view ... that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread."

Can you state who shares this view and can you provide a quote, link or any other evidence to support your accusation?

Without any such clarification and corroboration, your comment stands as a barefaced lie.

Are you a Liar Bobad or can you support your statement as requested?

Its a black and white situation.

I await your answer with curiosity.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM

The very title of this thread bears out Bobad's point. This was certainly a tragedy, but it was NO Israeli atrocity. Pretty much the reverse if you consider the planning to force a confrontation on the Turkish ship by Turkish extremists.

There have been comments to the effect that the Jewish state should be ended, there has been considerable digital ink spilled in a downright weird argument that the Jews in Israel are not racially Jews but they are committing genocide on the millions of Palestinians (who have gone on being Palestinian all this time). There has also been an implication that Jews might be more justified if they were willing to die off in larger numbers during the recent conflicts.

The crux of the matter is a genocidal intent to deny Jews their Palestinian rights and Palestinian origins. (The whiff of Juden Raus is rich through this thread because it seeks to deny Jews their time and place without allowing them any other time or place. Without the extremists who can't stomach synagogues (and churches) along with mosques in the Middle East, the many wars of the young State Of Israel would have been not so much.

Bobad's remarks are well taken.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM

Well said Robo, the thread absolutely reeks of that sentiment in spite of Lox's challenge to show someone using those exact words. That tactic is old.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM

""the view ... that the Jews do not belong in Israel, is one that is shared by many of the posters in this thread."

I share this view with bobad.

I am actually somewhat shocked and disturbed (in fact very disturbed) on some of the posts in this thread. I fear they are more than just exaggerated emotions, but true calculated sentiments bubbling to the surface.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM

Where are the cries against the genocide of Kurds in Turkey?

http://www.kurdmedia.com/article.aspx?id=13491


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM

So once more the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the plight of the people has been obfuscated by false fabricated charges of anti Semitism and self-hating Jews - for shame!

Well you can defriend me on Facebook and slander me on mudcat but there are too many voices raised in protest to be silenced

I stand proudly by everything I have said and defy anyone to find any trace of racism of any kind in my posts

I financially supported the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee back in the 60s
I was an active member of the anti -Apartheid movement in the UK
I have stood up and been counted (and physically threatened) at protests against the BNP and their equal hatred of Jews and Muslims in the last decade
I am a member of an organization seeking to bring together Jewish and Palestinian youth in cultural activities

As Kurt Cobain said
"I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not."

So slander me as an anti-semite here, defriend me on Facebook but you will not drown the voices demanding compassion and justice this time!

Goodnight and may your god forgive you


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM

Recent DNA studies shown that the closest relatives the Jews have are the Kurds and the Armenians.

For the government of Turkey to get involved in genocide against the Jews, well, that just looks like part of a very long tradition.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM

That tactic is old.

The tactic of pointing out nobody actually said that and therefore you are lying? Yes that is a very old tactic. Goes back as far as logic. And calling it a "tactic" doesn't mean what he said isn't true. You're a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: t.jack
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM

I guess i am becoming a anti semetic.I really think so by all the definitions i#v come across on this thred.Who dictates that judgement .Lox
Ignorent yes i am as my spelling will attest to. I have this rage inside that wants to stop this sensless killing .As a relgion well thats your trip.But when you say Israel is a Jewish State then it is a Jewish problem is it not.I don#t think i hate Jews but i am at the point of trying to understand what the heck is going on and the more i invesigate what or why all this is taking place ,it ends up with the word jew in it.Now if i was to boycott Israel products and services,what do they have other than oranges.And when i look at their beautiful orange groves by google earth i see they are the only green landscape in the middle east.Why,because they diverted water from the palistine land,not muslum but palastanie land.God i wish i could work the spell check.,,If they are such a powerful State where do they get the money. The indians have as much right to have their land back .No religion should pretend to own land and continue to brain wash their kids in beliving that. The bible i quote from a Jewish Friend and yes i still have a few jewish friends was bad journalism.So i guess i am anti semetic , i am anti war also. And it is the ignorant and uneducated like myself that join your armies but not create them.To fight and be killed for these rediclous ideals,for the soilder is young brainwashed and needs a job or meal which govt does not provide in trainings or education. I really think i am becoming antisemetic .What next..Rename the animals Adam.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM

mousey, so is name calling.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 09:54 PM

If the shoe fits.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM

In case you are wondering where I stand in all of this ... I stated it in an earlier post, and I'll restate.

"The only remedy to all of this is when we can live to-gether as humans and not see people as Jews, Arabs, black, white or as Mexicans ... when we are totally oblivious to all of this then we can live together in peace."

Then, and only then can humanity, and peace move forward.

When Israelis and Palestinians can sit across from one another and not see a Jew or not see an Arab. then this insane issue will be resolved.

Anger, and revenge, fear, mistrust will take us nowhere. It only fuels the flames of violence.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:09 PM

biLL, I agree with you 100% and I think humanity is evolving in that direction but we won't see it in our lifetime.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 10:14 PM

It certainly won't be in our lifetime bobad. Sad to say.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:29 PM

"Ahmed Luqman was shot twice during the raid and lost so much blood he nearly died. His condition meant he was one of the last activists deported from Israel.

He is now in an Istanbul hospital, from where he gave an interview to the ABC.

Mr Luqman said he was on the back deck of the flotilla flagship the Mavi Marmara, running to get inside, when he saw a laser sight settle on his leg.

Then he was down.

'I obviously knew that I'd been shot when I could see a bullet on the floor and a puddle of blood,' he said.

'Blood just pissing out of my leg, from two holes. You put two and two together, and it looks like you've been shot.'

The first bullet tore through his leg, partially severing his femoral artery. Another shot hit near his knee.

Israel says its troops were justified in opening fire after being attacked by a small band of violent activists, but Mr Luqman says that is simply fiction.

'None of us know anything about fighting and none of us intended to fight. [We're] peaceful people,' he said.

He denied any of the activists were looking for a confrontation and said some simply responded defensively when the Israelis opened fire.

'Me for one, I'm not part of that. I was just trying to get into the cabin and [was] just shot, like most of the other people who were just shot for nothing,' he said.

As bad as the assault was, the aftermath, says Mr Luqman, was worse.

'I've just been left there to lay down on the ground and just friggin' bleed, and I can't believe it,' he said.

Many of the soldiers that came up, picked up my passport because it was a different colour, looked at it, chucked it on the ground next to me and said, 'Ah, you're Australian'.'

Mr Luqman says Israeli soldiers refused him any sort of medical attention.

'They made me walk, without a stretcher, and climb all the stairs on my own without any assistance, and I passed out like three or four times just getting up the stairs on my own,' he said.

Mr Luqman's wife Jerry was with him. The nursing student helped keep him alive as his blood drained out.

Later, as other activists were deported, she chose to remain in detention in Israel to stay with her husband. She says the harsh treatment did not end on the ship.

'Their treatment of us was just completely unacceptable. I've never met anyone whose heart has become so hard and so black in my life,' she said."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/07/2919698.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:48 PM

I don't have time right now to read through all of the posts that have appeared since my last post, but I did see a couple. I don't know if this has already been answered, but just in case...

The proof that the Israelis opened fire first is in the video I posted earlier, which is from the live feed that was coming from the ship as the attack was in progress (which I was actually watching at the time, and I saw all of what we see in the video while it was happening), in which we seen and hear a correspondent reporting the fact that there are already wounded people on board the ship before we see the helicopters appear and then let down the ropes. A few minutes after he reports the wounded people, we see the helicopter appear and lower down a rope on which the Israelis absail down to the ship.

The report of wounded people prior to any of the Israelis landing on the ship is proof that the Israelis opened fire first.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 11:52 PM

When Israelis and Palestinians can sit across from one another and not see a Jew or not see an Arab. then this insane issue will be resolved.

I would put it differently. When the Palestinians can sit across a table from an Israeli and not see an oppressor, what is when this insane issue will be resolved.

Palestinians have no problem with Jews. They are very welcoming to Jews who come among them as equals. The people they have a problem with are those who come among them in order to subjugate them and clear them from the land. We know this because there are many Jews among them already, as equals, and the Palestinians call these Jews their cousins and hold them in very high regard.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:10 AM

For the third time, here's the video with the proof that it was the Israelis who opened fire first, for those who couldn't be arsed to watch it the first two times it was posted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g


Once again, in this video, which is from the live feed, which I and many other people watched in its entirety while this was going down, we can see an English speaking reporter (and several Turkish and an Arab) reporting the fact that people on the ship have been wounded. A few minutes later, they report the arrival of a helicopter, and we can see the helicopter come into view and let down a rope. Then we see the Israelis leave the helicopter and absail down the rope. After that, they report the presence of a second helicopter.

Passengers were wounded before any Israelis were even aboard the ship. So they can't possibly have been acting in self-defense. And the witnesses say that the Israelis opened fire first. The video evidence shows that it was the Israelis who opened fire first. The passenger testimony is that the Israelis opened fire first. The wounds to the back suggest execution style killings, or killings of people who were trying to get away. Many people who were watching the live feed say that the Israelis attacked first. All of the evidence shows that it was the Israelis who were the attackers, and the people on the ship who were the defenders.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 12:13 AM

I should rephrase this...


Passengers were wounded before any Israelis were even aboard the ship. So the Israelis can't possibly have been acting in self-defense.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:41 AM

It wisnae me Mr, a big boy done it an' ran awa!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM

They say people have been wounded.
We see no evidence.
They report "some kind of hemispheres" hitting the ship.
Not firing. Not grenades.
I suggest the boats were trying to get lines aboard.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM

""{I read several accounts of the autopsy reports and no person died of a single bullet to the back, or back of the head, execution style, as some claim. At least one person had a rear-entry wound, but had four more front-entry ones.}""

Re-read Emma B's post 07 Jun 10 11:58 AM.

That quotes a number of sources which give the lie to your assertion.

Besides which, it is immaterial how, exactly, they were killed. The relevant point is that they were murdered during the commission of an act of piracy on the high seas, a crime under international law no matter what excuse is offered.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM

""There have been comments to the effect that the Jewish state should be ended, there has been considerable digital ink spilled in a downright weird argument that the Jews in Israel are not racially Jews but they are committing genocide on the millions of Palestinians (who have gone on being Palestinian all this time). There has also been an implication that Jews might be more justified if they were willing to die off in larger numbers during the recent conflicts.

The crux of the matter is a genocidal intent to deny Jews their Palestinian rights and Palestinian origins. (The whiff of Juden Raus is rich through this thread because it seeks to deny Jews their time and place without allowing them any other time or place. Without the extremists who can't stomach synagogues (and churches) along with mosques in the Middle East, the many wars of the young State Of Israel would have been not so much.
""

EGREGIOUS RUBBISH!

Before entering a debate, it is useful to consider the terms which relate to what you are discussing.

There is NO Jewish state. The state is Israel, and a proportion of its population follow the Jewish faith.


As long as those widely different terms are presented as synonymous, this discussion cannot reach any viable conclusions.

Look at the origins of the Jewish inhabitants of Israel.

They are German Jews, Polish Jews, Romanian Jews, Hungarian Jews, etc. etc.

The common factors are 1). Their faith is Judaism, and 2). They have taken Israeli Nationality by choice.

There is no Jewish race, as such.

Back on track, could somebody please explain how any of these sidetracking points have any bearing on Israels government sponsored piracy and murder?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM

BTW, 700......and 701

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 05:59 AM

"The relevant point is that they were murdered during the commission of an act of piracy on the high seas, a crime under international law no matter what excuse is offered".........

..... and while bringing much needed aid to rebuild basic structures of hospitals and schools, provided mobility and medicines for the injured etc banned from import by the Israeli government.


"Israel's Gaza blockade targets Hamas while citizens suffer"

'Israel said the blockade was intended to hold Hamas – which it views as a terrorist group – "responsible and accountable" for rocket attacks on Israeli territory.

It is also intended to constrain Hamas's ability to rule in Gaza.

The blockade, preventing all exports from Gaza and confining imports to a limited supply of humanitarian goods, has failed to bring down Hamas but has heaped misery on Gaza's 1.5 million residents.

The UN humanitarian co-ordinator said last week that the formal economy in Gaza has "collapsed" and 60% of households were short of food.
According to UN statistics, around 70% of Gazans live on less than $1 a day, 75% rely on food aid and 60% have no daily access to water.

The effect of the blockade was felt even more acutely in the aftermath of the invasion of the strip by Israeli forces in the winter of 2008-9, as materials needed for reconstruction were delayed or banned from entering Gaza.

A UN factfinding mission described the blockade as "collective punishment". .

From a simple straightforward report in The Guardian on 31 May 2010


If you really care for and want to bring about peace and reconciliation and diminish the causes of revenge and resentment then please call for the end to this blockade condemned as illegal and immoral by voices of protest throughout the world and inside Israel itself.

In the name of sanity how can the ban on childrens toys coriander and sage constitute a security risk to a country armed with nuclear devices?
Did shoes and clothing constitute offensive weaponry for 2.5 years before having their status as a security threat recently removed?

The ban is perpetuating a situation in which over 90% of industrial establishments in Gaza are closed or are operating at less than 10% of capacity.
Does the fact that Israel prevents the entry of margarine in large containers designed for the production of foodstuffs in Gaza, while it allows the entry of margarine in small packages (made in Israel) promote the economy in Gaza?

Which ever way you look at this it is -

'Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part'


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM

Some American Jewish people speak out about their 'jewish values'


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM

There are many web articles alleging bias (on many topics) in the Guardian, This is just one example:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100017075/the-guardian-may-not-be-anti-semitic-but-it-is-biased-and-hypocritical/

There was an earlier allegation that a Canadian publication chain (currently owned by a rich Jewish family, but up for sale) is biased. I asked for the sources. A poster made reference to such allegations as "the American Educational Trust, (publishes The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs) as the proof. A Google check of this organization and publication shows a large number of claims of bias, and alleges links by some of it's members to to sketchy causes and other organizations....that seriously questions whether these two are themselves "unbiased source of information" on bias in other publications.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM

Sorry, but the Telegraph is in no position to accuse the Guardian of bias. The Guardian prints pieces from many sources, and many political positions. Any one piece may show bias, and the paper has a particular political position, but the Telegraph has as well, and less of a custom of informing its readers of opposing views. When a source accuses the Guardian of bias, look very carefully at it. The Guardian is one of very, very few papers in the UK which is not determinedly right-wing or in the grip of owners with personal axes to grind.

Meanwhile, here is a link to Henning Mankell's account of the events on the high seas and their aftermath.

Henning Mankell on the flotilla

Our intelligent members will be able to take account of any way in which this differs from their own bias.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:40 AM

Ed. of course the media are writing from a particular bias - however some are much more upfront about this than others

Certainly The Guardian has never disguised its political allegiance in supporting 'progressive' policies in the UK and the Telegraph has traditionally been referred to as the 'Tory graph'

I believe I was the poster who drew attention to the unabashedly pro Israeli policy of the CanWest empire because an item from that news source was presented as an objective statement of factual news reporting

I also plead 'guilty' of presenting another opposing perspective as I believe people are frequently fed a single political outlook and presentation of international situations by the prevailing media of their country and I have an endangered 'liberal' belief in hearing both sides and making your own judgement


I love the first line of the opening paragraph from the Torygraph however

"Having cheap allegations of racism thrown at you in order to close down the debate can be very damaging."

Kinda sums up a lot of the calculated use of fabricated charges of anti Semitism against posters on this thread to discredit and divert from the reality of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza

(p.s. Ed West also has some strong views on abortion and immigration of Islamic workers into Europe) which I personally disagree with as well.


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