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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 06:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 06:25 AM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 06:32 AM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 06:50 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 06:53 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:03 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 07:04 AM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:09 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 07:36 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:57 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:17 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:39 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:45 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:52 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:53 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 09:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM
Stringsinger 09 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 09:57 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 09:58 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 10 - 11:20 AM
mousethief 09 Jun 10 - 11:41 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 12:26 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM

""Cramped thinking, anyone? Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. For the most part the two sets coincide.""

NO! IT IS NOT!

The religion is Judaism.

The ethnicity, tragically, is Semite. I say tragically because it is the same ethnicity as the people they they are oppressing, and trying to destroy.

There is a crying need to expose this nonsensical insistance that a religion is the same thing as ethnicity, and the same thing as nationality.

It simply is not true.

There are Jews of every nationality on this planet, and the vast majority of the world's Jews have never even visited Israel.

Two thousand years ago, Palestine was a country of Jews and Arabs living together in harmony, who were being oppressed by Rome. Those Jews and Arabs were all Palestinians.

Today we have both Jews and Arabs living (rather more uneasily) side by side in Israel. Those Jews and Arabs are Israelis.

Then and now, the country has both Jewish and Muslim, as well as some Christians, but it is not a Jewish, nor a muslim, nor yet a Christian state.

By its actions, it is apparently a fascist state, wishing to expand into ever larger areas currently outside its legal borders. It does not care about world opinion, and is inhumane in the extreme, in its dealings with weaker opponents.

Does this ring any bells for those who can remember 60+ years ago?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:14 AM

""It is wrong to hate Jews because of what the Israeli government is doing. But it's also hard to say "Uncle Bob is really a nice guy" when everyone can see he's kicking the dog.""

In case it has escaped your attention Mousethief, most of us here are trying our best to lay the blame where it belongs, on the Israeli government, not on the jewish population of Israel.

It is you who constantly states that the two are in fact one unit, and thereby lays blame on innocent Jews.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:25 AM

""Jim Carroll, I'm not ashamed of myself for contrasting a view of the Israeli/Palestinian tragedy that considers only one side and doesn't value at all the right to exist of the other side.""

Roberto, you are seriously out of order.

Nobody here has ever (to my knowledge) denied the right of Israel to exist.

What we are opposed to is its expansion into areas set aside for Palestinians, its colonisation of the more fertile regions of these areas, its brutal suppression of any resistance to the above, and its apparent intention of starving the inhabitants of Gaza so that they will leave, or die.

I do not think that our objections are unreasonable, or anti-Semitic.

What do you think?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:32 AM

EmmaB, Why not just provide a link to the articles, and state your point, rather than cutting and pasting them. It just takes up space,makes it a difficult read and takes away from your point rather than adding to it. Long posts tend to get ignored, or the point is lost in the fog:)...IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM

Those who deny anti-semitism may wish to read and reflect upon the following.


Irwin Cotler: The new anti-Semitism
Posted: February 17, 2009, 9:00 AM by Kelly McParland

Reflecting on the contemporary surge in anti-Semitism, Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel has stated, "I have not felt the way I feel now since 1945. I feel there are reasons for us to be concerned, even afraid ... Now is the time to mobilize the efforts of all of humanity." This sentiment is what brings together parliamentarians from around the world, for the first conference of the International Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism.

What we are witnessing today is a new sophisticated, virulent and even lethal anti-Semitism, reminiscent of the atmospherics of the 1930s, and without parallel since the end of the Second World War. This new anti-Jewishness found early juridical expression in the United Nations' "Zionism is Racism" resolution, but has gone beyond that. Traditional anti-Semitism is the discrimination against, denial of or assault upon the rights of Jews to live as equal members of whatever host society they inhabit. The new anti-Semitism involves discrimination against the right of the Jewish people to live as an equal member of the family of nations -- the denial of, and assault upon, the Jewish people's right even to live -- with Israel as the "collective Jew among the nations."

Observing the complex intersections between the old and new anti-Semitism, Per Ahlmark, Deputy Prime Minister of Sweden, pithily remarked that the new anti-Semitism is marked by attacks on the "collective Jews -- the State of Israel," which then "start a chain reaction of assaults on individual Jews and Jewish institutions." In and around my home city of Montreal, I have witnessed chilling examples of these phenomena -- from the firebombing of my own high school, to the physical assault of Jews in the Laurentians, to the vociferous chants against Israel during recent Gaza hostilities.

Let me be clear: I have never argued that Israel should be immune from criticism. But the protesters at purported anti-Israel rallies who cry "Jews are our dogs" are of common ilk with traditional anti-Semites. The whole underscores Ahlmark's conclusion: "In the past, the most dangerous anti-Semites were those who wanted to make the world Judenrein, 'free of Jews.' Today, the most dangerous anti-Semites might be those who want to make the world Judenstaatrein, 'free of a Jewish state.'"

The indices of this new anti-Semitism are different from those of the old. Today it may be uncommon for a Jew to be refused service in a restaurant. But now Israel remains the standing object of genocidal threat from Iran and its terrorist proxies Hezbollah and Hamas; the Jewish state is singled out in the international arena while the major human rights violators of our time enjoy exculpatory immunity; the legitimacy of Israel is discriminatorily scrutinized to the extent that, for the purpose of country groupings at the United Nations, it is considered not even to "exist" in Asia; and less sophisticated voices spread rumors of Israelis injecting Palestinians with the AIDS virus. Jews may no longer be denied equal housing, but they are now being denied an equal homeland.

As New York Times commentator Thomas Friedman put it: "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanctions, out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

It is this escalation of anti-Semitism that necessitates the establishment of an International Parliamentary Coalition to confront this oldest and most enduring of hatreds. Silence is not an option. The time has come to act. For as history has taught us only too well: While it may begin with Jews, it does not end with Jews. Anti-Semitism is the canary in the mine shaft of evil, and it threatens us all.

National Post

Irwin Cotler is the MP for Mount Royal and former minister of justice and attorney-general of Canada. He is a professor of law (on leave) from McGill University who has written extensively on matters of hate, racism and human rights. He is a co-founder of the International Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism with U. K. MP John Mann.

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/02/17/irwin-cotler-the-new-anti-semitism.aspx#ixzz0qLpR7qJH


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:50 AM

"I find it easier to believe that some on board, willing to die as martyrs fighting Israel, flew at the soldiers and began clubbing them as can clearly be seen in video.

Abducted Israeli soldiers are invariably murdered and that would influence what happened next. "

On what basis do you find that easier to believe?

If it is that abducted soldiers invariably get murdered then you have no premiss, as in this case the abducted soldiers were not murdered, but instead, once they were disarmed, received treatment.

You also asked how we know that Israel is witholding video evidence.

We know because numerous reputable reporters on board have said that their video and photographic evidence was stolen.

The evidence on the one hand that there was a deliberate attempt to misinform, and on the other hand that evidence has been hidden, all adds up to an overwhelming likelihood that the Israeli Govt is covering up and that their version of events is unreliable.

Now apart from your feeling of what you find easy or hard to believe, what evidence have you that the passengers on board are not telling the truth?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:53 AM

Ed, I have come to the conclusion from the comments posted by some people that they don't actually bother to look up the actual links therefore a summary of some of the information may give an impression of the contents and the reference will enable them to check out the original

The extract that I chose from the advice by the Israeli Law firm specifically addressed your challenge that

"Only Jews can own land in Israel (Goyim can [i]lease[/i] land from the government for up to 49 years)".

was "not a fact...but propaganda often repeated in the past."


Sometimes several short extracts from longer articles serve to illustrate a particular issue which the links alone would not do or a particular point is contained in a much longer article that may be irrelevant to the specific discussion .
I am by no means the only poster who uses this form and rarely, unlike some others, post whole newspaper articles.

Joe Offer is the arbitrator of 'style' - but I take your point completely about lengthy posts and have strived to contain posts to one screen where ever possible in the past
As people in this thread have pointed out however the issues are complex.

now back to topic.......


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:58 AM

Keith I am more likely to subscribe to the theory of 'major military cock-up' these are by no means unknown in history

Neither is the tendency to present such a cock-up resulting in an unacceptable loss of life as something different in order to 'save face' a prime example of which was disastrous charge of British cavalry led by Lord Cardigan against Russian forces during the Battle of Balaclava in the Crimean War immortalized by Alfred, Lord Tennyson, whose lines have made the charge a symbol of courageous warfare

Writing in Haaretz Reuven Pedatzur reports

"Perhaps the commanders of the Israel Navy and policymakers should have read history books before sending special forces to raid boats carrying civilians."
"The operational details of Israel's takeover of the flotilla of boats headed to Gaza won't be clear for many days, if ever. But there's no need to wait for a blow-by-blow account to point out that from the military point of view, it is hard to understand how an action that the Israel Navy spent so long planning ended up in so severe a debacle."

"And that's without even addressing the questions that arise regarding how wise it was to carry out a military action against civilian craft in international waters."

"The decision to act at night is also problematic. Presumably, some of the commotion and the hysteria on the ship was a result of the fact that neither the soldiers nor the civilians could see clearly what was going on. This is a sure recipe for escalation on the part of people who have to guess without being able to see who is approaching them and what they are doing."

From the same newspaper

Fiasco on the high seas by By Ari Shavit

"Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Barak and Moshe Ya'alon are supposed to know history. They are supposed to know there was no greater mistake than that of the British with regard to the illegal immigrant ship Exodus in the summer of 1947. The brutality employed by the British Mandate against a ferry loaded with Jewish refugees turned the regime into an object of revile.
It lost what is now called international legitimacy

The Turkish ship Mavi Marmara was no Exodus.

But a series of baseless decisions on the part of the prime minister and the ministers of defense and of strategic affairs turned the Marmara into a Palestinian Exodus. With a single foolish move, the Israeli cabinet cast the Muslim Brotherhood in the role of the victim and the Israel Navy as the villain and simultaneously opened European, Turkish, Arab, Palestinian and internal Israeli fronts.
In so doing, Israel is serving Hamas' interests better than Hamas itself has ever done.

Perhaps the most troubling question in the wake of this fiasco on the high sea is this: Who is navigating our ship of state, and toward what catastrophe are the captains of this ship of fools steering us? "


Given the reaction in Israel - not to mention internationally - it is not difficult to see how a government prepared to sanction the forging of British Australian and Irish passports to enable a state sponsored assassination had no compunction other than to put the best possible spin on this attack in international waters.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:03 AM

Lox, I find that scenario easier to beieve than the alternative, i.e.
1 Israelis thought it a good idea to make this the first and only antiblockade ship they have ever fired on.
2 Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready.

The previous treatment of Israeli prisoners would influence how their friends and comrades reacted to this abduction.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:04 AM

You know edT,

In the UK recently we have seen the formaton of a new group of right wing nationalists called the English Defence Leaugue.

They hold rallies outside mosques and exist to drive Moslems out of Britain.

They are comosed of football thugs and other BNP old guard.

I suggest you look at some of the Youtube videos of them as they chant their slogans of hate.

You may be surprised to see a few Israeli flags being waved.

There is conflict brewing at a very low level in the UK between Jews and Moslems.

Firstly it is important to note that there is NO evidence of a large scale cultural antisemitism as described in your article.

But secondly, what tension that does exist is as much the product of Islamophobia as it is a product of Anti-semitism.

In addition, there have not been similar rallies by moslems outside synagogues.

Islamophobia is also heavily promoted by newspapers like the sun, the mail and the express, and moslems are an at risk section of society in the UK as a result of this, much more so than British Jews.


Gerald Kaufman, Friend of Golda Meyer and Jewish Member of the UK Parliament has criticized Israel for hiding behind the holocaust and accusations of anti-semitism in an attempt to justify what he describes as the murder of palestinians.


I personally, coming from an Irish perspective, know that it is essential to recognize political problems as just that political problems, and not religious or cultural ones.

Political problems need political solutions.

Blaming the whole world for being Jew haters in response to accusations of Human rights abuses and racism is not an effective political solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM

Was the blockade legal: I suspect so, as they have been impsed by states before and international law seems fuzzy in this area.

Was the blockade wise to impose:No

Was the blockade excessive (though to me it is more like a quarintine): Most certainly

Is there a case to be made that it breaks humaritarian laws: I feel there is a good one, and would expect the UN to be more agressive in dealing with it.

Has the blockade helped Israel? Maybe it halted an escallation of the Hamas rocket fire, but in the long run it can only hurt Israel.

Has the Blockade helped the long term Hamas cause: Yes

Has the Blockade hurt the peace process. I see that the jury is out on this one. It did little to build trust and has focused opinion against Israel (not for those aready clearly opposed to Israel).It may increase international pressure on Israel to work towards peace. But, peace requires trust and willing partners...not just international pressure.

Would international santions force Israel into a peace process and to make concessions? I feel this would be no more effective in changing Israel's position than changing the position of Hamas through a blockade. So, my answer is no.

Do Hamas and Israel care about the impact of the blockade on civilians. The site below seems to state that concern for civilians is often secondary to broader objectives of governments involved. However, I would like to believe people care about people...beyond those broader national/government/military strategic issues or goals. But, I have been often dissapointed by governments before. While I have been dissapointed in the past, I hold onto a faith in humanity and people care about people...regardless of their ethnic background and history, religeon, or natioinality.

Here is a perspective on blockades:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1995/TC.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:09 AM

Emma, the cock up I find most likely was the soldiers being left vulnerable and exposed. The fight was not anticipated and perhaps should have been. The day before Hamas TV showed an interviewee who said that some on board wanted martyrdom more than they wanted to get to Gaza.

You are suggesting that there was an attack, a cock up, but then the soldiers would not have landed one at a time without weapons at the ready.
Hard to believe I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

"While I have been dissapointed in the past, I hold onto a faith in humanity and people care about people...regardless of their ethnic background and history, religeon, or natioinality."

Right on Ed - hold onto that - it maybe all we have left.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

Hamas TV clip referred to above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HThF8ft5Cls


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM

DonT ".....its apparent intention of starving the inhabitants of Gaza so that they will leave, or die."


"We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them. It does not prevent the daily arrival, via Israel, of between 100 and 120 trucks laden with foodstuffs, medical supplies and humanitarian goods of every kind. Humanity is not "in danger" in Gaza, and it is a lie to state that people are "dying of hunger" in the streets of Gaza City."

Bernard-Henri Lévy
Haaretz, Wed.June 9, 2010


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM

"Firing having started, commandos descended into the fight one at a time without weapons at the ready."

1. How do you know the weapons weren't at the ready?

2. Testimony from the passengers states that live ammo was fired from above and from the boats before the troops landed. This testimony is corroborated by the commentary in the live feed which states that some of the passengers were wounded before any troops landed.

It is clear that the troops did not expect the resistance they encountered, but this says nothing about whether or not they were the aggressors, it just shows that they underestimated the determination of the people on board.

It is really important to ask who is trying to cover the evidence up and who is trying to make it public.

The question of who is telling the truth is best answered by that factor alone.

Israel has engaged in a clear policy of falsified evidence, secrecy, accusations of terrorist links and accusations of global anti semitism.

Nowhere do I see them saying "here is the evidence, we welcome an independent enquiry"

There is not much that is believable about the official Israeli positon.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM

Lox stated:

"Firstly it is important to note that there is NO evidence of a large scale cultural antisemitism as described in your article".

I am not sure where your last comments to me come from?

Possibly there was a suggestion of something like that included somewhare in an article I linked to (I did not notice it, or I would have stated that this is not my position) to make another point. To be clear, that was not a position I hold.

BuAlso, it was not "my article" as you state. In fact, I have not given a position on "a large scale cultural antisemitism" To tell you the truth, I have not even thought about this, done any research, nor have a current position on that. Just because some posts an article for consideration, it does not mean all contents on the site is their position, nor the article "their article".

I do not believe I have accused anyone here of anti sematism. I do not equate being anti Israeli or having a position (or being associated with like minded groups) on the Palestine-Israel issue with antisemitism... However, I recognise some do suggust such a connection.I have mostly stayed clear of that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM

How do you know the weapons weren't at the ready?

Caorol's video shows soldiers descending.
The firing does not start until much later.
I find it hard to believe that IDF commandos would allow themselves to be clubbed into submission without firing a shot if they had weapons to hand.

Your uncritical acceptance of one side of the story is foolish.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:36 AM

Ed T,

I'm sorry, I made a mistake.

In fact I wasn't referring to any post of yours at all.

I was referring to the article posted in the following post from Bobad.

"From: bobad - PM
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM"


I would add thought, that even if you had posted the article, in criticizing it or questioning the motives of the authour, I would in no way wish to suggest that I was making the same criticism or asking the same questions of the poster.

My response would be an attempt to scrutinize and debate the content of the article.


Hence, in responding to Bobas article I do not attribute the views of its authour to him, but nonetheless feel it is deserving of the response I have given.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM

"Your uncritical acceptance of one side of the story is foolish."

Uncritical?

I have responded to the available evidence.

We have yet to see grounds upon which to base doubts on the testimony of the passengers of the ship.

We have on the other hand seen numerous and varied grounds to doubt the testimony of the IDF and te Israeli Govt.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:50 AM

Carol's video again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAuz6HoqV4g

The soldiers descend at 2 minutes 3seconds.
The narrator says nothing of fire from above, only of some kind of cannisters fired from boats which seem not to cause any alarm.
There is talk of the two captured soldiers, and then first shot are clearly heard and reacted to at 4 minutes 44seconds.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:57 AM

Do watch it again.
The "attack" on the ship is by just two soldiers who do not fire a shot.
Help does not arrive for about 2minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:17 AM

The French Subtitles at the very start read as follows:

"Il y'a actuellement des blesses des deux cotes du navire"

Which means "There are actually injured [people] on both sides of the ship."

That is before Anything at all happpens in the video.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM

Then the next frame says,

"On deplore plusieur blesse, Oui il y a plusieurs blesse"

to translate -

"On deplore plusieur blesse"

Means "one deplores more injured [as if to say lets hope there are no more injured]"

"Oui il y a plusieurs blesse"

Meaning "Yes there are more injured"


The commentary then goes on about the ship being under seige and being in international waters.

All this before the English speaking reporter comes online and all long before the troops abseil down.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:29 AM

Lox. Pity we are not allowed to see them.
Were their "injuries" caused by the "some kind of cannisters"???
Why is there no obvious concern as when the shooting starts?
The cannisters obviously do not explode.
What could they be?
I suggested earlier that the boats were trying to get lines on board.
That would not have been necessary had the ship complied with the requests.
I suppose that could cause a bruise or a graze if someone got in the way.

The video shows, despite the hysterical narration, that the ship was not attacked at all. Two soldiers descended to the deck and were brutally set upon.
The hard evidence is Carol's video and those we have all seen of people landing blow after blow with metal bars.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

It was claimed that the helicopter fired on the ship before the landings, and you repeated it just now Lox.
Carol's video shows that to have been a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:39 AM

"The hard evidence is Carol's video and those we have all seen of people landing blow after blow with metal bars."

That is only Some of the hard evidence Keith.

You need to consider all of it together.

The murderous passengers didn't murder anyone.

They could have very easily.

They claim they were trying to disarm the soldiers.

This claim bears scrutiny.


There is no evidence upon which to base doubts about their testimony.

Til there is, it stands up as evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:45 AM

"Carol's video shows that to have been a lie."

No it doesn't.


The word "Deplore" in French is not a judgemental word.

It alsio means to "Bewail" and "Bemoan".

Its use is more sympathetic than critical.

The reporters are effectivley grieving that passengers have been injured.

This is not 100% proof thet live rounds were fired before the troops landed, but it does corroborate the eye witness testimonies of passengers who claim that they were shot from above before troops landed and who say that they saw people being shot before troops landed.


The live commentary of the reporters in the live feed is evidence that accusations of the Israelis firing before they landed are true and accurate.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:48 AM

"Carol's video shows that to have been a lie."

Come on then Keith, explain how it shows that?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM

It is hard evidence.
There is no mistaking the point on the video when the first shots are fired.
They can clearly be heard, and the people react and disperse.
The narrator only speaks of "some kind of cannisters" from the boats.
He would hardly overlook being shot at!
The witnesses who say that live rounds were fired before the landing are proven liars.
And you are shown to be naive and credulous.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:52 AM

"Carol's video shows that to have been a lie."

In order to show this it would have to prove beyond doubt that no bullets were fired.

In fact it does no such thing.

In fact, it corroborates eye witness testimony.

Which makes your comment plain wrong.

Nice try but no cigar.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:53 AM

"The witnesses who say that live rounds were fired before the landing are proven liars."

Which ones?

And by whom?

Link please ...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM

"There is no mistaking the point on the video when the first shots are fired.
They can clearly be heard, and the people react and disperse."

The ones on the deck can be heard.

What about shots from a noisy helicopter - could they be heard Keith?


I can't see your trousers - does it follow that I have proved you not to be wearing any?


No - but that is the principle of your nonsense argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:07 AM

The testimony of 'staff Sergeant S,' who is being considered for a medal, is contrary to initial Israeli Army reports

He has stated the shooting had started within minutes as he and his comrades were set upon by a "mob of mercenaries". and taking charge, he formed his men in a perimeter around the wounded, pulled his 9mm Glock pistol and opened fire on passengers he accused of shooting at the boarding party with guns taken off the first soldiers, who had been overwhelmed as they landed one by one.
"These were without a doubt terrorists. I could see the murderous rage in their eyes and that they were coming to kill us."

Now none of this holds up with 'official' reports, the testimony of the passengers or even the video Keith linked to which is quite explicit (in French) of the events unfolding

Amongst the inescapable anomalies is the instance by the Israeli government that "The soldiers reported that the activists had fired on them during the confrontation and that at least two commandos suffered gunshot wounds.
After the incident, 9mm bullet casings were found - a kind NOT used by the naval commandos."

WHAT not even Staff Sergeant S's Glock?

The not particularly left wing or pro Palestinian Times points out in its reporting that

"Israeli officials have accused the Turks who attacked them of links to terrorist groups, although it was unclear why, in that case, the soldiers of Flotilla 13, the elite Navy Seals unit involved in the operation, were briefed only to expect peaceful resistance.
The question also remained as to why the passengers, if they were indeed terrorists, did not use deadlier weapons against the approaching naval launches and helicopters hovering overhead.

Alexandra Lort-Phillips, 37, an activist from Hackney, was on the Mavi Marmara when it was stormed and described seeing an Israeli soldier taken down into the stairwell below the deck where the soldiers landed

"I saw a gun being taken. His gunbelt was removed and someone, I don't know who, ran past me with the weapon and disappeared. They could have shot him but didn't."

Report from Haaretz

"The Israeli Navy says it went over "incidents and responses" in preparation; these included opening fire at charging activists with melee weapons. In case of a threat to their lives, the commandos were ordered to shoot to kill even as they were on their way onto the deck.
Another officer said that "we became a little spoiled, as a society, expecting perfect performances."

According to a senior officer…..

"NO REAL PEACE ACTIVIST WAS INJURED. NO SOLDIER WAS KILLED, EVEN THOUGH IT CAME PRETTY CLOSE. IN THE END THE SHIPS ARE DOCKED AT ASHDOD. IT WAS VERY COMPLICATED AND THE RESULT IS NEAR PERFECT."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM

Lox, they would have heard shots from the boats and seen them fired.
Do you accept that was a lie?

If people on the ship were being hit by live rounds it is very hard to believe that the narrator and those around him were oblivious. They were aware of "some kind of cannisters" hitting the ship but not bullets???

It is impossible to believe that the commandos would descend without weapons to hand if they had already fired on the ship.

You have seen the video evidence but close your mind to its story.
Two legs good, four legs bad.
No other evidence accepted.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

"We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them."
THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE - I've yet to hear of arms made of cement, yet this formed a large part of the cargo and is desperately needed to rebuild the schools and hospitals damaged and destroyed by the Israelis during their last incursion into Gaza This is included on their list of banned marterials.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM

Emma, that account actually is consistent with the video.

The commentary does not speak of any shots before the landings, only of cannisters and unspecified injuries.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM

"Lox, they would have heard shots from the boats and seen them fired.
Do you accept that was a lie?"

"it is very hard to believe that the narrator and those around him were oblivious"

Keith.

First they commented that there were ALREADY numerous injured passengers on both sides of the boat.

Then they commented that this number was increasing.

The deplored, bewailed and bemoaned this tragedy and hoped there would not be more injured, but were shocked to report that the numbers were increasing.

Then AFTER that they commented that canisters were being dropped onto the boat.

This is hardly evidence that they were oblivious to anything.

They weren't oblivious to it, they were REPORTING IT.

As for the other alleged lie,

I don't think we can say that the video proves there were no shots from the boats.

Keith - ever been on the deck of a ship going at full speed? In this case with two noisy helicopters 20 or 30 metres overhead, numerous powerboats with large engines on all sides, and the sea wind whippping any sound from those boats back and away from the ship, and the noise of the Mavi Marmaras engines and the melee of scared passengers and reporters on board, we cannot say that not hearing such shots is evidence that they didn't happen.

The reporters are shouting to be heard on microphones they are holding next to their faces.

If the video doesn't prove that no shots were fired from the boats, then it doesn't prove that testimony to be aa lie either.


Sorry, but there is no evidence of lies being told about shooting yet.

There is evidence to corroborate the passengers testimony though.



So Two legs, four legs, whatever thats all about, is of no interest to me.

Your attempt to discredit the passengers testimony has utterly failed.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM

Firstly, I was wrong to say only two commandos descended.
I was wathching the timer and missed the others.

The microphone used for the commentary was very low sensitivity.
It does not pick up voices a few feet away. You barely hear the helicopters.
The gunfire is as far away as the helicopter but is clearly heard.

The narrator speaks of unspecified, out of sight injuries, never of incoming fire. Just the cannisters.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:52 AM

DonT, referring to Israel: "An oasis of fascism, racism, and discriminatory constraint, would probably be a more apposite description."

My goodness, what an absolutely horrible place that must be. Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM

I meant 4 legs good. Animal Farm.
Never mind.

You will never accept it Lox, but to anyone looking at it rationally, the video makes liars of those who say there was shooting before the landing.

Remember too that Yemeni professor who had been told what was going to happen. Spookily prescient?
I find it easier to believe the flotilla commander did tell him that martyrdom was the main objective.

I think that we may as well give up now, unless more evidence emerges.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM

What is being done here is speculation. The Israel Commandos systematically destroyed all evidence. This was a criminal act by its action. It was a "dead man tells no tales" scenario.
The Mark Regev PR blitz is not to be trusted.

There is no real argument, here. A vessel bound for Gaza to break the blockade offering assistance for the Gazan people was attacked by armed military commandos with the purpose of throwing fear into the unarmed and peaceful resistance.

If you don't get that, then there is no discussion that will make sense here.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:57 AM

Lucky we have that video Stringsinger.
It shows no firing untill nearly 3 minutes after the soldiers landed, were themselves attacked and two abducted.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:58 AM

"The gunfire is as far away as the helicopter but is clearly heard."

Not true - it is on the deck just behind the reporters. Before the troops abseiled closer to the reporters they were further away on the helicopters.


"The narrator speaks of unspecified, out of sight injuries, never of incoming fire. Just the cannisters."


True. His comments however are still consstent with the testimony of eyewitnesses on board.

Hence they serve to corroborate the passengers version of events.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

"two abducted."

Nope - sorry but that is your misleading spin.

They were brought to safety below decks and their injuries were treated.

There is photographic evidence of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM

That is spin!
If they were asked, "would you like us to take you below, or would you prefer to stay here" what do you HONESTLY believe they would reply?

If they did not want to go it was abduction.

The "witnesses" spoke of being fired on from boats and helicopter before the landings.
The narrator does not mention this.
I can not believe that he would be either unaware, or fail to mention incoming fire.
When the firing does start, they react, switch off the lights and disperse.
It is obvious if you consider the evidence rationally that no shots were fired until nearly 3 minutes after the landings.
They lied.
Watch Carol's video.
They intended what happened.
Watch my Hamas TV video where it is laid out the previous day.

(Did not the firing come from the landing site, about 30 feet below helicopter and about 30 yards from camera/microphone ?)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:20 AM

Mouse crook,

"Only Jews can own land in Israel"

Not true.


"Only Jews are registered and called up in the selective service. "

ONLY Jews are REQUIRED to serve in the military- Isralei Arabs MAY if they choose, but are NOT require.


"Jews from anywhere in the world are given a free immigration pass, but no other people group has that privilege "

Since Israel was established to be the Jewish Homeland, the requirement that ALL JEWS be able to move there seems to make sense.




BTW, why is it that so many here insist that Palestinians whose families left Israel in 1948 have the right to go back, but Jews who were drven out at various times ( from Babylonian times to the present) have no such rights?


What is the time limit that is being proposed- and will you hold the 640,000 Palestinian refugees to the same standards as you hold the 820,000 Jewish ones driven from Arab countries?

How long will someone have to have lived in a place before they can claim it, and how long must they be gone before they lose the right to go back?

And about those Christian Palestinians who fled the Moslims in 1948- do THEY get THEIR land back? If so, the town of Ramallah just became A CHRISTIAN TOWN, and the present inhabitants better get out.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:41 AM

Israel was established to be the Jewish Homeland

No, no, it's not a Jewish homeland. Listen to Ed T. He knows everything. It's not a Jewish state, it isn't, it isn't, it isn't.

Whew. Okay, I'm better now.

Ed, I wasn't equating Israel with Judaism. It's plain that there are Jews who are not Israeli citizens (although they could become so at the drop of a hat just by moving there), and it's plain there are Israeli citizens who are not Jews. So let's get that attempted slander out of the way first. I was not saying that Israel=Judaism. Nice try though. 9 out of 10 for effort, although 0 out of 10 for accuracy.

But Israel is a Jewish state. It was created FOR Jews (as Rig was so kind as to point out), and is run BY Jews. Why has Israel not annexed the occupied territories, as they had every right to do at the end of the 1967 war, if it was not because that would topple the Jewish majority in Israel? They are little by little de facto annexing the West Bank, but of course only bits that are exclusively inhabited by Jewish settlers. If the current rate of nibbling continues, though, they will soon have it all and the Palestinians will be pushed out of the Territory entirely. But maybe that's a subject for another thread.

As for ethnicity haven't you been following the conversation about DNA markers?

Judaism is not a "nation" -- Israel is a nation, and you've already chided me for equating it with Judaism. You want to eat your cake and have it, here.

Rig, why aren't Christians and Muslims drafted into the Israeli army, if Israel is a secular state where all men are equal? Answer: it's not a secular state where all men are equal. Christians and Muslims are second-class citizens. This is shown just by the fact they are not included in the "universal" draft. Sure, they can volunteer. But if Israel is really a "religion-blind" state, as Ed T assures me it is, then they wouldn't have to. They'd be inducted like their Jewish neighbours are. Conclusion: Israel is not a "religion-blind" state. Jews have special privilege.

I had never heard that the JNF doesn't sell but only rent land, and I stand corrected on that point. Also on the 6.5% of land allowed to be owned privately. Of course having a land trust called the Jewish National Fund is something of a giveaway -- this really isn't the secular state Ed wants to portray it as. You might as well argue that Turkey is really a secular state, kof kof.

Does this make me an anti-semite, because I am willing to face the truth that the state of Israel discriminates against its non-Jewish minority, and was founded as a homeland for the Jews? Whatever. Remember Humpty Dumpty paid words extra when he abused them.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 12:26 PM

"It shows no firing untill nearly 3 minutes after the soldiers landed, were themselves attacked and two abducted."

Keith - sigh, the only people who were armed were the soldiers

All the bodies of the passengers who were killed show a number of very close range bullet wounds

No shots were fired at the descending soldiers as the passengers did not have guns

The descending soldiers, according to one report I read, were unable to fire as they abseiled down as they were wearing protective gloves which made this impossible - this seems very likely
Nevertheless they were masked and armed to the teeth at 4 am or so in the morning - it is not surprising that they may have been assumed to have lethal intent bur, as is clearly demonstrated, despite having the opportunity to kill them when the first commandos were overcome by force of numbers - none were.


The official Israeli story as of June 3, 2010 argues that three soldiers were captured when they were unconscious. Of course such elite commandos couldn't be be taken captive by civilians (unless they are spun as armed terrorists 'with murder in their eyes' of course)

However Haaretz reports that three commandos "were nearly taken hostage".

The report continues Haaretz that the commandos then regained consciousness and "managed to rejoin their comrades."

ok so - "hard-core" Islamic militants captured commandos only because they were unconscious, but then they just managed to wake up and return to their heavily armed squad - so 'abducted not abducted?


The Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren has publicly called the humanitarian activists "terrorists – hired killers who came to murder soldiers, not to assist the residents of the Gaza Strip."

Let us be perfectly clear on this issue: If the goal of the activists was to "murder soldiers", they would be murdered, because the activists had at least 10 minutes (by the IDF's recollection of events, which should be treated with caution) in which they could have killed the captive soldiers with or without weapons.

That they didn't, despite the opportunity, speaks volumes about their true intentions.

Abbas Al Lawati who graduated from Concordia University's
political science department was working as a reporter for the Gulf News newspaper, based in the United Arab Emirates on board

Here is his report as he watched and filmed one of the detained soldiers being dragged below deck it does not ignore or gloss over the anger and fear of the attack on both sides


"I saw angry activists drag one of the Israeli soldiers down the stairs and punch him, I lost my journalistic objectivity and found myself urging the activist to stop hitting the soldier.

Seeing the anger in the activist's eyes, I thought that he would kill him. I had images of the wars that Israel has waged over its captive soldiers, and the number of people that have died as a result of them.
My thought was that if an Israeli soldier was to die on that ship, the entire flotilla would be bombed until it sank.

That was, of course, before I saw the bloodshed. The activists' anger was suddenly put in context when I saw a number of people carrying a dying man down the stairs.
His face was unrecognisable, covered in blood. He was apparently one of the first to go down, after an Israeli gun targeted the centre of his forehead from a helicopter, spilling his brains into the hands of another activist who was trying to look after him.

I took a few deep breaths and went back to get some footage on my tiny HD camera. Still indoors, I remained by the staircase where, by now, the organisers of the flotilla had pushed aside activists and forbade them to hurt the soldiers.

I took a few steps down to film the other captive soldier, struggling to keep my balance with so much blood under my feet. He stood in a corner being attended by two medics onboard, in shock, crying.

It was surreal. I knew that that soldier could destroy the entire flotilla, and thought I would get some close up footage of him. I took my camera as close as possible to his face and asked his name twice. He was too traumatised to answer. I could see fear of death in his eyes. He was petrified. Then I heard women screaming. "They are coming!"

This shocking but authentic sounding version of events could be proven or disproved if Israel were to release Al Lawati's footage,


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

From Anna Baltzer, who is one of my heroes...

http://annainpalestine.blogspot.com/


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