BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:15 PM

It is because it was a song from the Civil Rights Movement that I can't accept it to be bent to a sectarian support to a part that doesn't recognize at all civil rights, not even the idea of them, as Hamas regime. You are carrying the torch down a ditch. I'm from Italy.

On the contrary, the song is not being sung for Hamas. It is being sung for the people of Palestine. Don't forget, Israel would not exist today were it not for its own use of terrorism. And many of those terrorists still serve in Israel's government today. So to say we must punish the people of Gaza because of Hamas, or that we can't negotiate with Hamas because it has committed acts of terrorism is really the height of hypocrisy.

We Shall Overcome is a perfect song for this movement, although the Palestinians have some songs that are even better.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:18 PM

Keith, you said this:

A blockade is a method of warfare between belligerent states.

Ok. So please tell me who the belligerent states are in this context.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM

Just because you post alot (the record on this tread speaks for itself), does mot mean you are posting anything new....that hasn't been said alot by your compadres on the web.
This is a very strange thing to say considering that all of the news of recent events in the Mediterranean were new prior to about a week ago. When one posts "news" (which could be defined as "new information"), one is posting something new. If someone posts a link to "news" that has not been posted before, he or she is posting news that no one else has posted before, meaning that has not been posted by his or her compadres. That's how it works with "news". That's why we don't call it "olds".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

As I've written previously, the Italian group on the flotilla was no doubt formed by anti-semite. Please, go and visit their site, TerraSantaLibera, HolyLandFree, there is also a section in English.. The demonstrations in Italy, as usual when Israel is involved, have had several anti-semite traits.

Roberto, what evidence do you have that she writes for this site rather than the site finding her work elsewhere and publishing it in their site? What evidence do you have that she is even aware that her work appears in that site?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

South African Apartheid is a misleading comparison. I'm not ashamed to criticize them who propose a fairy-tale vision of Hamas democracy, as CarolC does.

Please show me where I have characterized democracy under Hamas in this way. If you can't, then we know that you are lying.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

"We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them. It does not prevent the daily arrival, via Israel, of between 100 and 120 trucks laden with foodstuffs, medical supplies and humanitarian goods of every kind. Humanity is not "in danger" in Gaza, and it is a lie to state that people are "dying of hunger" in the streets of Gaza City."

In light of this, we must conclude that Mr. Levy is lying, because we have seen the list of things that aren't allowed in and they include things like baby formula, antibiotics, incubators, school books, paper and pencils, chickens and other livestock, and other things that are in no way "materials needed to manufacture weapons", but in fact, are materials that are necessary to sustain life and a functioning society.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

We know that footage and photographs have been confiscated because two people were able to get some of their material out, one through hiding it in her underwear, and the other was able to restore some of it from a drive that the Israelis thought they had destroyed. In both cases, the material showed that the Israelis were lying.

We know two things: one, that there were several journalists on board the Mavi Marmara, and that they were documenting what was happening on the flotilla. I know this because I have seen a lot of what they were able to send electronically before their signal was cut off. The second thing we know is that almost none of the material that they were not able to send before the signal was cut off has returned home with the people to whom it belongs. We also know that the Israeli government has used some of it in a highly edited form, so that also proves that it exists.

So we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that the government of Israel is withholding information, and that every time any of the information that they are withholding is found and released, it supports the version of events given by the passengers, and it proves that the Israeli government is lying.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM

Hmmmm. Eight messages in a row from the same person. Is this a discussion, or an obsession?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:59 PM

The video shows, despite the hysterical narration, that the ship was not attacked at all. Two soldiers descended to the deck and were brutally set upon.
The hard evidence is Carol's video and those we have all seen of people landing blow after blow with metal bars.

Keith, it is not accurate to say that the video shows that the ship wasn't attacked. It would be more accurate to say that the video doesn't show any actual attack. We might have had access to the feed that would have showed the firing that occurred prior to the start of the video in question but for two things. One: the Israelis were firing on sleeping passengers, and two, the people who were doing the live feed had only just then been able to reestablish the feed after it was interrupted by the Israelis. Now why, I wonder, might the Israelis not have wanted the live feed to get out during that particular time period. Hmmm... maybe so we would not now have any videographic evidence of the shooting that occurred before the Israelis boarded the ship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:02 PM

Living rough in Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:04 PM

Joe, I was gone for several hours and there are many points that were made in my absence. I could lump all of my responses in the same post, but I don't have time to read all of the posts since my last one at the same time and then try to organize my responses all in one post.

Perhaps you can tell me what the difference is between putting all of my points in one long post, or putting them in separate posts. And perhaps you can tell me what the difference would be if I had the same number of posts but others had posted in between.

Your post looks like a personal attack to me, and an attempt to discredit what I am saying using smear tactics rather than responding to anything I have actually said. Maybe you really are working for the hasbara people as that guest said you were.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM

By the way, Joe, I notice more than 14 posts from Keith during the time I was not posting. So tell me what would be the difference between Keith posting more than 14 since my last post, but at longer intervals in between, and me posting only 8 with much shorter intervals in between. Wouldn't you say that 14 is more than 8 in the same time period? Are you suggesting that Keith has an even bigger obsession than me, or does your comment only apply to people who see things differently than you?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

Joe that was below the belt!

I have acknowledged and accepted the criticism from Ed that long posts are sometimes ineffective or even counter productive and I think it is only fair to support Carol's view that a number of separate points deserve separate posts.

Carol is by no means the only poster who has posted several posts one after the other - another immediately springs to mind!
However I did not see any such observation or accusation of 'obsession' in that instance.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM

That tactic, along with accusations of anti-Semitism, are what hasbaristas resort to in the absence of having any legitimate arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM

Joe was merely making plain what has been obvious in many forums over a long period of time. I used to judge my effectiveness by how many rat-a-tats I could get out of CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:45 PM

Would you apply that same standard to beardedbruce, robomatic? Or does his rapid fire posting not count because you agree with what he is saying?

Like I said... that tactic is used by people who have to rely on smear tactics because they don't have any legitimate arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

LOL

I judge the effectiveness of my arguments by the number of personal attacks and smears I get from people like Joe and robomatic in threads like this one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

Since my name came up...

I think CarolC was correct in posting replies to different posts as different entries- and have no problem with multiples from the same person.

In this case, IMHO CarolC is in the right.

(Bookmark this, as it will not be said often by me 8-{E)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM

"Listen to Ed T. He knows everything"

Thanks for that endorsement, mousethief,finally, I get some recognition around here, though OI am fairly sure all would not agree with your assessment, and go to length to prove you wrong....but, get used to that:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:00 PM

Carol, if the ship had been fired on before the start of the video, why was it not mentioned?
The "cannisters" from the boats were mentioned.
Why did they continue to stand filming under a bright light?
They turned it off when the shooting did start.
You just want to believe that the Israelis instigated the violence.
There is no reson why they should, and it has never happened before.

It has been mentioned. Numerous times. Right here in this thread, even. I have posted testimony from several people who said that sleeping passengers were fired on before any of the Israelis had boarded the ship. Others have said that the ship was fired on but they were not close enough to those who were being fired on to know that they were sleeping at the time.

I also know that there were times when they did film in the dark. One of them is on the video. I also saw them turn out the lights on the live feed I was watching during one of the other times when the signal was not being interrupted. And while the light was off, everyone got very quiet and crouched down low. Keep in mind, Keith, that there were many people, myself included, who were watching these events in real time, except for the times when the Israelis had cut off the signal. I saw things that you have not seen, like a woman shouting to the people on the boats, "Don't shoot! We are unarmed civilians!"

I am going by the evidence of my own eyes and ears. You are only going on the propaganda that has been disseminated by the Israeli government. I would say that means that it is you who are gullible and wanting to believe what you want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:08 PM

CaroleC (I like the French version) Take a breath....posting too often (in machine gun fashon) robs the brain of oxygen...it can get one light headed....and god knows where that will take the thread:)

People make reference to "Carol's video" Egad, was she there also....If so, I move aside (from knowing everything, about every issue, may I add) to her first hand observations of events that sorry day.

Anyway, here is another site to fuel debate, shoot down and frown upon....should keep muddyfolks busy while I cut my grass....darn stuff grows like weeds lately (come to think, it may be all weeds...I say that with caution, as I do not want to be branded anti-senecio).

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM

"Hmmmm. Eight messages in a row from the same person. Is this a discussion, or an obsession? "
Please don't go down that road Joe - it's not the first time you've confused compassion with obsession.
Listen to Ed T. He knows everything.
Maybe - but he's not very good at verifying what he says.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:12 PM

Oops, I am getting the light headed disease myself....just talking about machine gun posting...and reaching the consummation of my last post, I forgot to add the site link..


http://www.thecourt.ca/2010/06/04/seizure-of-the-gaza-flotilla/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:17 PM

I stand to be corrected, thanks for the compassion, not the discussion, nor the obsession....not all of us are obsessively compassionate. You got me on that one....us folks that know everything deserve to slip up once and awhile....it encourages the naysayers, who are always looking for an opposite perspective and a comspiracy to feel "hard done" by.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:18 PM

CaroleC (I like the French version) Take a breath....posting too often (in machine gun fashon) robs the brain of oxygen...it can get one light headed....and god knows where that will take the thread:)

I notice it's only the hasbara people who like to use these kinds of smear tactics. Like I said, when one has no legitimate arguments...

:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:18 PM

Look at that....three in a row...Don't worry folks, the record is safe:)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

Dammmm...Carole wrecked my hat trick....

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

People make reference to "Carol's video" Egad, was she there also....If so, I move aside (from knowing everything, about every issue, may I add) to her first hand observations of events that sorry day.

I was not there. I was watching the live feed the whole time.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM

What do you know...can't let your guard down, around here. folks are sharp as a pin...when I was trying real hard to smear folks and know everything they come between me and my hat trick post'in record.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:28 PM

From your link, Ed -

At the most general, the applicable law is 'public international law' (PIL), which is the term for the law that primarily deals with interstate relations.

So tell me which states we are discussing in the context of the application of this law.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:30 PM

Sorry Carole, don't want to say much...in case it drives you to smearing language, eat'in popcorn on sofas, watching live feeds, or learning new hebrew words to post to impress the young'uns.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM

Just as I thought. You don't have any arguments. So be it. Just remember, I'm not the only person who can see your posts. Everyone else can see them, too.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:43 PM

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/?scp=1&sq=Lede

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

"You don't have any arguments"

Of course not, when one knows everything, what s the point in arguing? No real need for multiples here?

"I'm not the only person who can see your posts. Everyone else can see them, too"


Duh, you got me on that one, I never thought of that. Stupid me.

I thought all mudcat discussions could olly be seen by you and me?
I will never get used to the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Not at all hard to understand - elementary patriotism would explain it - "This is my country - it is where I belong, and I refuse to be driven into exile".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

Now, let's put that quote back into it's original context:


DonT, referring to Israel: "An oasis of fascism, racism, and discriminatory constraint, would probably be a more apposite description."

My goodness, what an absolutely horrible place that must be. Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Changes the meaning somewhat, wot?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM

A lawyer provides information from legal experts explaining how and why the attack on the flotilla was illegal...

http://theonlydemocracy.org/2010/06/links-and-video-about-the-gaza-freedom-flotilla/

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:45 PM

This video shows Israeli terrorists kicking someone who is lying on the ground and then shooting him. The video says it's the young man who had US citizenship...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=604238508&v=wall&story_fbid=114967525214151#!/?ref=home

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:49 PM

Of course they would rather live where they are than anywhere else in the world. That's where they're from! But if you ask them whether they would prefer to remain there under the present regime, or if they would prefer it if there was a different government, you would likely get a very different answer. But nobody in Israel is ever going to ask them that question.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:05 PM

Changes the meaning somewhat, wot? ,/i>

Not at all. It increases respect for the courage and determination of Palestinians living in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM

Today the Talibans, in Afghanistan, hanged a child 7 years old as a spy. But our main concern is how Israel reacted to a provocation. Our We Shall Overcome is mobilized against Israel. A new atrocity. Only anti-sionism? Nothing to do with anti-semitism? There won't be a thread so many posts long for any other cause. That's our problem.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM

Carol,

The video from the following post:

From: CarolC - PM
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:45 PM

Is not accessible to non facebook users and probably not even accessible to those facebook users who arent associated with whoever posted it there.

You may need to provide a new link to the original source.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:40 PM

Roberto,

First, - you need to provide a link to that story.

Second, - if it is true then it is a terrible crimne and I utterly condemn it.

Third, - there are no mudcatters who will defend murder of a 7 year old by the taliban, so there will be no debate as everyone will agree.

So the discussion will end very quickly unlike this discussion where there are many who are defending the actions of the IDF.

Fourth, - The IDF are meant to be on 'our side'.

Who is our side?

The USA, the UK and Israel, alleged champions of democracy and human rights in the war against terror and alleged champions George Bushes new world order.

You will find multiple threads as long as this one about British and American atrocities for exactly the same reason.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Joe,

I join BB and others in supporting Carols multiple posts earlier.

As she states, she was responding to a multitude of different posts, therefore it was useful to post several times to address each one clearly.

In addition I am also surprised by the tone of your post. It doesn't address the topic being discussed and it doesn't seem to be the neutral observation of a moderator.

I hope that I am right in believing that it was not about poking the funny unpopular girl with a stick for your own and your friends enjoyment, or indeed about reminding her who is in charge.

She has very clearly and rationally defended her view on the subject being discussed. If there is an issue with this subject being discussed then that issue involves everyone on the thread and not just carol.

BB - You are indeed an honourable guy and I salute you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

"""We mustn't tire of reminding others: the blockade concerns only arms and the material needed to manufacture them.""

Such total naivete, and lack of rational analysis.

I am not going to bother to repeat the catalogue of items which have been denied the residents of Gaza.

Suffice to say, they include foodstuffs which could only be classed as very long term weapons, which might, in thirty years or so, cause an outbreak of heart attacks.

One banned item is concrete, which is needed to rebuild the infrastructure totally destroyed by the Israelis' somewhat unusual brand of proportionate response. Unless somebody here knows something I don't, there are no effective concrete weapons.

So, you are wrong once again.

Do try to keep up. There are a number of reliable sources for the fact that the Israelis are blocking essential humanitarian aid, and that the residents of Gaza are being deprived of sufficient food (i.e. STARVED).

They don't want Israeli assistance. They want Israel back inside its legal borders, and its nose out of their affairs.

Then they can, and will, rebuild, and feed themselves.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:55 PM

Thanks, Lox.


Roberto, my tax dollars aren't funding the activities of the Taliban. In fact, my tax dollars are being used to fight the Taliban.

So, number one: I am not being made complicit in the activities of the Taliban as I am the activities of the government of Israel, and number two: focusing on what people do with my tax money is my responsibility and is something that I am able to do. If Israel doesn't want me to be working as hard as I can to get them to stop doing what they are doing with my tax money, they should stop taking my tax money and with it, making me complicit in their war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM

"BB - You are indeed an honourable guy and I salute you."

Don't usually agree with you but........ ditto

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:58 PM

""I find it hard to believe that IDF commandos would allow themselves to be clubbed into submission without firing a shot if they had weapons to hand.""

They certainly had hand guns, which were resonsible for the multiple bullet holes in their victims, many shot in the back, or back of the head.

This has already been established.

Now, it is also known that some of those hand guns were taken by the defenders. None of them were used on the soldiers, none of whom were in fact shot.

This does not gel with the idea of a number of fanatics being prsent with the goal of becoming martyrs. If there is one thing we should have learned by now, it is that fanatical martyrs take as many as possible of the enemy with them to the grave.

It still reads as state sponsored piracy and murder.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:16 PM

Here's the video (on YouTube) of the Israeli terrorists kicking and then shooting the passenger who is on the ground...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdA6jJ8dOZQ

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:21 PM

""So to say we must punish the people of Gaza because of Hamas, or that we can't negotiate with Hamas because it has committed acts of terrorism is really the height of hypocrisy.""

A very valid point Carol. Many of the terrorists who murdered British soldiers prior to and during 1948, ended up in powerful positions in the Israeli government.

Menachim Begin, ex prime minister of Israel, burned British soldiers in their tents.

It happened in many other places too, that ex terrorists became national leaders.

Archbishop Macharios
Jomo Kenyatta

Don T.