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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM
mousethief 09 Jun 10 - 07:10 PM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 07:18 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 07:27 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM
mousethief 09 Jun 10 - 11:32 PM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 01:36 AM
mousethief 10 Jun 10 - 01:49 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 02:01 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 02:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 03:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 05:41 AM
bobad 10 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 06:21 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 06:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 06:40 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 06:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 07:14 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 07:20 AM
bobad 10 Jun 10 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 07:38 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 07:49 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 09:36 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:41 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:49 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:56 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:03 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 10:11 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:16 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

""Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?""

And you can of course post the source survey which produced that statistic?...or did you conjure it out of thin air?

And you can state with authority, and supporting evidence, that the 77% don't have any issues with the way their country is governed, or with its treatment of their Palestinian brothers?

NO?....I THOUGHT NOT!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:10 PM

I see Ed has discovered passive aggression. Read an instructional book, did we, or watch a video on YouTube?

Ah well, as Carol says, if you don't have a cogent case to present, resort to other tactics.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:18 PM

"And you can of course post the source survey which produced that statistic?...or did you conjure it out of thin air?"

Do you use this forum only to air your anti-Israel rants and don't read other posts?
The source has been posted to this thread, I will leave it to you to do your homework.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:27 PM

The hasbara brigade has gone largely silent since I posted that video. I wonder if they're calling headquarters and asking for instructions.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

"Internet killed the hasbara star

by Adam Horowitz on June 8, 2010 · 86 comments

One of the most striking trends following the flotilla attack has been how quickly Israeli hasbara has been exposed and discredited by internet journalists. Robert Mackey has a post on the Times Lede blog highlighting some examples today - Max Blumenthal's reporting on the doctored IDF audio of the attack and Noam Sheizaf's work on Turkish photos of the Mavi Marmara attack which contradict IDF claims. To these two I would add Lia Tarachansky and Blumenthal's work disproving the IDF's claim that the flotilla was linked to Al Qaeda, Jared Malsin's work confirming the doctored audio, and Ali Abunimah, who has been in the lead on many of these stories and lately has been reconstructuing the path of the Mavi Marmara to show it was actually fleeing at the time of the Israeli attack. All of this has appeared on the internet and are helping to shape the story, despite the Israeli Foreign Ministry's best efforts.

These efforts are helping to fill a crucial void around the narrative of the attack, as Israel still refuses to share the entirety of the video and still footage it confiscated from flotilla passengers. Israel has released snippets of the footage which they believe support their version of events, apparently believing that by limiting access to the footage they could control the story. This has clearly not been the case. Instead they are on the defensive, busy issuing clarifications and apologies. The one "success" in their hasbara effort has been the racist "we are the world" knock off which really only confirms how absolutely tone deaf many Israelis are right now to feelings around the world. The fact that this embarrassment is viewed as a success in Israeli circles has been termed "Hasbara Derangement Syndrome" by Israeli blogger Didi Remez. They ended up having to apologize for that one as well even though Israeli spokesperson Mark Regev "thought it was funny."

It seems that Israeli hasbara is getting a bit tougher in the age of the internet. I mean, who's going to believe "a land without people, for a people without a land" when there are ten YouTube videos to prove you wrong?"

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/internet-killed-the-hasbara-star.html


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM

"I see Ed has discovered passive aggression. Read an instructional book, did we, or watch a video on YouTube?

Ah well, as Carol says, if you don't have a cogent case to present, resort to other tactics."

Speaking of tactics mousey, I see you are well versed in the ad hominem attack tactic. Can you say hypocrisy?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:32 PM

"bobad"


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:36 AM

Lox. You can find the story from many other sources. I've also read it on the New York Times site.

Adnkronos International. Afghanistan: Taliban 'hang 7-year-old boy for spying'
Lashkargah, 9 June (AKI): Taliban fighters have hanged a seven-year-old boy, claiming he was passing information to foreign soldiers in the volatile southern province of Helmand, the governor's spokesman, Daud Ahmadi, told Pajhwok Afghan News.
The child's shocking murder took place in the Sarwan Qala area of Sangin district late on Tuesday. The boy, whose name was not immediately known, was abducted from the village of Heratyan, Ahmadi said.

CarolC. Now everything is clear. It was a matter of taxation. No taxation without representation, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:49 AM

What does this story about Afghanistan have to do with this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:01 AM

CarolC. Now everything is clear. It was a matter of taxation. No taxation without representation, I suppose.

No, Roberto. It's about complicity.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:44 AM

mousethief. It has to do with this thread because it shows a lack of proportion, we concentrate out attention on Israel more than any other Country in the world, we denounce so called atrocities when Israel is involved and pay poor attention to many real atrocities perpetrated by Countries and political entities that so often unite their voices to our voices to condemn Israel as the quintessence of evil in the world. We describe the world without Israel as a world in peace, peace at last, as does CarolC when she writes that Palestina without Isarel would be a tolerant and democratic State and that there is no reason not to trust Hamas: this is about complicity.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:22 AM

Carol, your new video is not as clear as the previous one.
There is clearly a fight. It is not clear that a weapon was fired.
Here is a clear video of the landings.
At around 53 seconds, after numerous clubbings that would be fatal but for helmets, after a soldier is thrown to a lower deck, notice the soldier to the right of the picture armed only with a paint ball gun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM

Here is footage of an Israeli boat before the landings.
Who would you say is attacking who?
How much incoming fire is there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24&feature=channel


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM

Roberto,

Thank you for the reference.

Do you have a response to the rest of my post?


In addition, you stated:

"We describe the world without Israel as a world in peace, peace at last,"

Who says this and where do they say it?

"CarolC when she writes that Palestina without Isarel would be a tolerant and democratic State"

Where has Carol written this?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM

These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people"

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:41 AM

From The Irish Times this morning.
I was struck by the fact that an Israeli 'extreme right' isn't just a Hamas invention
Jim Carroll

WHERE BURNED AND BULLDOZED OLIVE TREES ARE MOURNED
MICHAEL JANSEN
Nablus,
West Bank
A GROUP OF RABBIS SEEK TO SHOW THAT JUDAISM SHOULD NOT BE EQUATED WITH THE EXTREME RIGHT
OUR minibus speeds past the dusty, deserted Huwara checkpoint, south of the northern West Bank city of Nablus. Huwara used to be a major obstacle, jammed with cars and people; today neither a vehicle nor a person is in sight. The road between Ramallah, the Palestinian Authority's administrative centre, and Nablus is open, except when Israeli troops decide to mount a flying checkpoint.
We turn east and make for the rolling hills clad in olive trees, their trunks dark and twisted, leaves green and silver. Most of the trees are young, perhaps half a century old, but here and there stands an ancient tree, planted hundreds of years ago, its trunk hollow, its branches bowed. Palestinians compare themselves to the rooted and steadfast olive trees. When settlers burn or bulldoze them, Palestinians mourn olives as family members.
These sunny, apparently quiet hills are a theatre of war.
"Palestinian farmers have a lot of trouble with settlers in this area," observes Rabbis for Human Rights director Arik Ascherman.
"We help the farmers plough their fields and pick their olives. Our legal department deals with expropriations. We also rebuild [Palestinian] homes that have been demolished and plant olive trees. [The fact that] we are rabbis sends a message [to the Palestinians] that they should not equate [the Jewish] religion with the violent extreme right" in Israel, Ascherman says.
He points out that after the Oslo accord was signed in 1993, Israel accelerated settlement construction. While Palestinians expected that the land Israel conquered in 1967 would be theirs, the Israelis planned to negotiate over this land and sought to lay claim to as much of it as possible. After the second intifada erupted in 2000, Israelis tried to "stop Palestinians from working their land so that after some years this could be claimed by settlers", he says.
"Ours is the only rabbinic organisation in Israel dedicated exclusively to human rights. It was established in 1988, during the first [Palestinian] intifada... For the past seven or eight years Trocaire has supported our programmes."
We wait in the countryside for Jamal, who bounces along the road on an elderly red tractor. "His own tractor was trashed by settlers," asserts Ascherman, who has come to work out with Jamal when to send volunteers to accompany him when he ploughs two large fields covered in golden grasses which nod in the breeze.
By law Palestinians should have access to their land and the army is supposed to protect them, but since settlers generally have a free hand, these rabbis act as human shields.
Upper Yanoun is a hillside hamlet with 200 inhabitants belonging to the same clan.
"In 2002 settlers came in the middle of the night and expelled the villagers," says Ascherman
"The settlers harass the villagers, burn their olives and wheat fields. The settlers enter the village constantly."
After coffee with Rashed, the clan leader, we proceed to a house occupied by four Ecumenical Accompaniers who are based here to deter attacks and report them to the UN. Pat Devlin from the UK says: "A group of 19 settlers came into the village, took the cover off the well, climbed down and swam in it. The army said they were 'brave youth'... They are taking land [that] villagers farm and use for grazing, driving down their capacity to earn an income," she states.
Back on the flat on a narrow road running between the fields, we spot a herd of gazelle foraging in the tall grass.
"Palestinians say the only good thing about the settlers is they have stopped us from eating all the gazelle," remarks Ascherman


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM

Roberto, don't get sucked into that game, remember what Humpty Dumpty said; "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:21 AM

Thank you Roberto.

Providing examples is helpful, answers the question and clarifies your position for anyone reading the thread.

Bobad would do well to take note.


I am also curious to be directed to the actual posts that each quote came from so that I may see them in context.


And I look forward to seeing Carols response.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM

bobad, I'd appreciate if you would explain to me where you think I made words say more or something different than they actually mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:36 AM

4th June 11.24 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM

That last for Lox not Roberto.
Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:40 AM

Roberto, You said:

"These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to"

I used my 'Find' button on my web browser to look for the two quotes you have attributed to carol as having been made in this thread.

It found both quotes.

But only one of them in a previous post by Carol, the other was only in a previous post by you.

The one which exists only in your posts is: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people".

Which means that Carol can't have said that in this thread.

___________

The other quote ...

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"

... didn't read as Carols personal opinion of what might happen, but appeared to be her report of the likely viewpoint of Palestinians with whom she is in contact, as the whole post began with the following ...

"number6, from all of the information I have, and I have a lot of information from people in Palestine ... etc ..."


I am sure Carol will clarify her position on this when she comes back online.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:45 AM

Lox, CarolC writes "There is no reason not to trust Hamas" in her post 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

Lox, while we are discussing old posts, you posted this.

"The people on the boat who were unfortunately killed, chose to attack the Israeli forces,"

This is BS. The IDF attacked the ship. The people on board defended themselves.

Please look at the clips I posted today, and withdraw.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:14 AM

"The IDF attacked the ship."

In what way is this not true?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:20 AM

Keith, your videos both show the passengers of a ship fighting off a boarding party.

That is called defence.

If they had boarded the Israeli boats that would be called aggression.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:28 AM

Roberto, I have sent you a message via PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:38 AM

The IDF boarded.
That is not an attack.
It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses.
The IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence.
They endured nearly 3 minutes before a round was fired.
That shows unusual restraint.
The IDF did not attack, they merely landed.
Each in turn was met with extreme violence.
They were attacked.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:49 AM

"It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses."

I see?

on buses eh?

I can't remember the last time I was on a privately chartered bus that was stormed by soldiers against the will of the passengers on board ...

... It clearly happens to you a lot though.


Lets pretend for the sake of this discussion that you never made such a ... comment.


OK - Its a regular occurrence at sea ... for soldiers to abseil onto civilian ships in international waters ...

nope ... still not sounding very regular to me ...


In fact this is a pretty outstanding affair.

That must be why its in the news.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

Roberto,

Thanks again.

I have to confess that I too am sceptical about the idea that Hamas are to be trusted.

But as Gerald Kaufman also said, "they are the only game in town", meaning that if there are to be negotiations, Hamas can't be ignored.

However, I respect Carols assessment on the basis that Hamas, for all their ugly menace, are at least transparent about their intentions.

Their official line is more hardline than their behind the scenes stuff.

Their behind the scenes stuff is more about deal making and their on the sleeve stuff is about war.


I haven't engaged in the debates about who broke what ceasefires first the way that other mudcatters have, but I can say that Carol is pretty honest and advocates a clear, consistent and well supported view, as does her #1 opponent Bearded Bruce.



I do note however that while Israels official line is that they seek a fair and peaceful resolution, their unofficial backroom stuff seems to be about building more controversial settlements and about slandering their opponents.


I note Bobads public announcement that he has sent you a personal message, something that you will already know since you will have received it on your page, thus rendering his public notification of it obsolete.


I don't know what the subject of it is, but I can't help speculating that it involves a bit of back room character assassination.


Well once you have been given 'the lowdown' on how 'they' operate and the tactics 'they' use, feel welcome to post freely and expresss your opinion on the mudcat just as I do, Bobad does and Carol does without restriction.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM

The fairy tale
"IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence."
The facts.
"Those found on board ship: stun grenade, catapult, metal bar, knife, broken bottle.
Those in posession of the pirates: paintball gun, tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine guns, Glock handguns."
Now - who was attacked and who did the attacking?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM

We describe the world without Israel as a world in peace, peace at last, as does CarolC when she writes that Palestina without Isarel would be a tolerant and democratic State and that there is no reason not to trust Hamas: this is about complicity.

Roberto, there is not a chance in hell that Hamas would be ruling Palestine/Israel if it were a state for all of its citizens and citizenship is not conditional on religion or ethnicity. And this is why I am not concerned about Hamas when I say that Israel should be a country for all of its citizens and that citizenship should not be conditional on any religion or ethnicity.

Hamas didn't even get a majority of the vote among Palestinians. They only got a plurality. There no way that it would get a majority of the vote if all of the people who in what is now Israel would also be voting.

You just keep framing it as if I believe that Hamas would be ruling the country because your own racism doesn't allow you to tolerate the idea of Israel being a country for all of its citizens and for citizenship not to be conditional on one's religion or ethnicity.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM

Keith, the paint ball pellets were filled with glass fragments. The people who were hit with the paint pellets sustained severe soft tissue injuries. And you can quite clearly see the guy in the last video I posted firing his gun. You can see the recoil. And the passenger in question did end up dead, with several bullets in his chest and head. You can also quite clearly see the two Israelis kicking someone who was on the ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM

Here is footage of an Israeli boat before the landings.
Who would you say is attacking who?
How much incoming fire is there?


First of all, there is no way to know that this footage was taken before the Israelis boarded. This video doesn't show any of that. You are taking the Israeli government's word that it happened that way with no evidence to back it up. Secondly, the stun grenade is being thrown back to the Israeli boat. The only reason anyone on the Mavi Marmara had any stun grenades at all is because the Isralis fired them at the Mavi Marmara in the first place. So that answers your question of who is attacking whom.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:36 AM

Apart from the eye-witness and press reports after the boarding which carried the above information, there's a certain crassness in the suggestion that the Israeli commanders (of one of the most belligerantly aggressive armies in the world) would send in troops armed only with paint-ball guns.
Tell us you're 'avin' a larf Keef!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:41 AM

These are the quotations from CarolC in this thread I'm making reference to: "There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people"

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"


Roberto, I was answering a question from someone else who phrased it in that way. Maybe it was you. I do not expect Israel to be "handed to the Palestinians". I expect it to simply join Palestine and become a state for all of its citizens with citizenship not being conditional upon anyone's religion or ethnicity. The fact that you are glomming on to this one answer to someone else's question while ignoring all of the times that I have stated it as it is stated above is extremely dishonest, and is further evidence that it's your own racism that is preventing you from being able to entertain the possibility of Palestinians being able to have equal rights in Palestine/Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:49 AM

Lox, CarolC writes "There is no reason not to trust Hamas" in her post 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM.

I stand by this. But it has nothing whatever to do with what I expect to happen when the present regime in Israel is dismantled.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 09:56 AM

The IDF boarded.
That is not an attack.
It is a regular occurance at sea, and also on buses.


The Israelis did not have permission to board. It is highly illegal and considered an attack in maritime law to board anyone's vessel without permission, especially if the people on board are making it very clear that they do not want to be boarded.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area. I think we have no rights to play with those people making experiments. I'm aware that many of the supporters of the one state solution are not dreamers, but the one state they have in mind is that pursued for many decades by the PLO and recently by Hamas, symbolized by the maps that show no Israel, but only Palestine all over that area. There is also a right wing in Israel whose aim is to rule the whole area (Eretz Israel). In my opinion, the two states solution has no alternative if we also want to stop the killings. I'm not sure for democracy, because it is not in Hamas culture, let's hope for Fatah's evolutions (in the times of Arafat, there was no democracy where he ruled). It is not my racism, to use CarolC's gratuitous insult, that makes me think the one state solution to be a mask for a new version of the final solution, but normal sense of reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:03 AM

I note Bobads public announcement that he has sent you a personal message, something that you will already know since you will have received it on your page, thus rendering his public notification of it obsolete.

I don't know what the subject of it is, but I can't help speculating that it involves a bit of back room character assassination.


My guess would be that they're recruiting him for the hasbara brigade; getting him officially in the loop.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:11 AM

CarolC, I see you can't debate without insulting. I send back to you your parcels with "racism" in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:16 AM

It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area.

It is difficult for me to think that a person with even less than normal ability to perceive reality would actually think that a state that artificially maintains a majority of one particular religion or ethnicity can in any way be described as a "democracy" or that it could ever be a peaceful arrangement.

I think we have no rights to play with those people making experiments.

I am not doing that. I am merely predicting what is going to happen. Just the way it happened in South Africa. And it certainly is appropriate to make such comparisons. Even South Africans say what exists right now in Palestine/Israel is apartheid, and many of them say it is far worse than the apartheid that was experienced in South Africa.

I'm aware that many of the supporters of the one state solution are not dreamers, but the one state they have in mind is that pursued for many decades by the PLO and recently by Hamas, symbolized by the maps that show no Israel, but only Palestine all over that area.

You are not in a position to tell me what I have in mind and what I don't have in mind. What I have in mind is a country like all of the countries in the West, in which everyone has equal rights and citizenship is not dependent upon anyone's religion or ethnicity.

It is not my racism, to use CarolC's gratuitous insult, that makes me think the one state solution to be a mask for a new version of the final solution, but normal sense of reality.

You keep accusing people of anti-Semitism, as you are doing just above. You're the one who has started the gratuitous attacks. If you can't tolerate the idea of a state in which Jews do not artificially maintain a permanent majority and in which everyone has exactly the same rights and citizenship is not in any way tied to anyone's religion or ethnicity, then you are a racist.

And you even are insinuating that because I believe that everyone in Palestine/Israel should have equal rights, that means I am advocating for all Jews to be killed. This is not only a specious lie, it is also quite an insane way to interpret what I have said.

I believe in equal rights for all. I don't believe anyone's rights should be dependent upon which religion or ethnic group they belong to. You think that some groups should be privileged over other groups and some should be denied citizenship if they don't belong to the correct group. This makes you not only a racist, but also a supremacist.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:17 AM

CarolC, I see you can't debate without insulting. I send back to you your parcels with "racism" in it.

Roberto, you're the one who started the insults when you started flinging around the old "anti-Semite" canard.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM

Lox, the navies of the world do carry out boarding operations every day.
They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth.
The IDF has boarded many vessels
This one made the news because of the violence.
The video shows who started it.
The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.
Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.
I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks.
It is silly to suggest they were thrown up from the boat.
Carol, the video of the boat must have been before the boarding.
We have footage of the boarding . No boats are alongside.
After 3 minutes the firing started and the demonstrators were ordered by their commander to stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM

Roberto, If you look back through the mudcats extensive discussions on Israel, I don't think you will find any advocates of a one state solution.

Certainly as far as I am aware, all the main players in the debate on this thread advocate a two state solution.

I personally believe the solution is for Israel to accept that they should withdraw to within the pre 1967 borders.

Though I understand the fear of Hamas.

As I understand it, most of the debate on here is about whether or not this solution would work, whether there is a historical justification for those borders as opposed to oters, and whether or not The Israelis or the palestinians are sincere in their wish to find a solution and stick to it once it has been found.


There is no innocent party in modern day Israel/Palestine.


Palestinians see Israel annexng more land in the form of settlements and humiliating them for seemingly gratuitous reasons.

Israelis see Palestinians as being full of Hate for Jews and wanting to destroy Israel.


2 solutions would be for Israel to stop expanding and for Palestinian extremists to stop firing rockets into Israel.


But who will take the first step?


Well - Israel is meant to be on our team - the allies - and they are funded by Britisjh and American Tax dollars and pounds which makes Me complicit in their actions if I don't publicly disagree.

Hamas do not claim to represent me or my ideology nor do they receive any funding from me.

So I know where the focus of my disssatisfaction has to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM

Sorry, I left out to whom I'm replying: CarolC.

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM

"They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth."

Within their own jurisdiction.

"The IDF has boarded many vessels"

Yes.

"This one made the news because of the violence."

The others were extremely violent too - its just that noone was killed with live ammo.

"The video shows who started it."

Yes - the soldiers who committed a hostile act by boarding it in international waters armed to the teeth.

"Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands."

Ever been shot with a paintball?

What about witht the right protective gear?

What about if it has glass in it?

"I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol."

Are you saying that the IDF got it wrong about that too?

I'll be back


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM

Lox, the navies of the world do carry out boarding operations every day.
They search vessels for drugs, illegal immigrants and so forth.
The IDF has boarded many vessels
This one made the news because of the violence.


Are you saying this is done all the time in international waters?

The video shows who started it.
The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.


You are not in a position to say this because you do not have video that shows what happened before the scene to which you are referring. You only have an absence of video confirming the witness testimony and the announcement of wounded passengers prior to the Israelis boarding the ship. But we do have quite a lot of witness testimony as well as the announcement of wounded passengers before the ship was boarded.

Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.

If someone doesn't want to be hit with a metal bar, all they have to do is not stand in range of it. The range of a metal bar is only a few feet. This is not the case with a paint pellet filled with glass that is fired at your face by someone who is standing a safe distance away from you. It's a lot harder to avoid being hit with a metal bar than it is to avoid being hit with a paint pellet filled with glass.

I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks.


I note the word "believe" in that statement, Keith. So you admit that you are only going on belief rather than on evidence.

It is silly to suggest they were thrown up from the boat.

They were not thrown up from the boat. They were fired from the boat.

Carol, the video of the boat must have been before the boarding.
We have footage of the boarding . No boats are alongside.


You've got to be kidding me. There were many boats along side of all of the ships the whole time. You have no evidence that that video was taken before the boarding. You're just going on belief. But it really doesn't matter whether it was or not. We have witness testimony and evidence that backs it up that the Israelis attacked the ship.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM

And I also notice you can't admit there can be ideas that are different from yours but as much legitimate. I'm discussing what you say, not what you are, while you're labelling me a racist and a member of the hasbara brigade.

Clearly this is not true, Roberto. You have been working very hard to paint me as an anti-Semite.

I admit that there are ideas that are different from mine that are just as legitimate. But discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas.


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