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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:49 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 10:57 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 11:05 AM
Mr Happy 10 Jun 10 - 11:12 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 11:45 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 12:27 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 12:58 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 10 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 03:36 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM
Emma B 10 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM
Ed T 10 Jun 10 - 05:19 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:21 PM
Emma B 10 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:26 PM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:43 PM
Emma B 10 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:49 AM

I got this backwards so I will rephrase:

It's a lot easier to avoid being hit with a metal bar than it is to avoid being hit with a paint pellet filled with glass.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 10:57 AM

CarolC writes: discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas. I agree, these are not my ideas. Avoid inventing ghosts.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:05 AM

CarolC writes: discrimination, apartheid, and privileging one group over all others will never be legitimate ideas. I agree, these are not my ideas. Avoid inventing ghosts.

This is what exists in Israel now and what Israel is enforcing in occupied Palestine, and what you defend when you defend the status quo.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oSmSqZce3k


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM

CarolC, I don't defend the status quo but I support a two states solution, you don't know what else to invent to deny my right to express my point of view without your nasty insults about what I consider a tragedy and you seem to believe a tale with goodies against villains.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM

CarolC, I don't defend the status quo but I support a two states solution, you don't know what else to invent to deny my right to express my point of view without your nasty insults about what I consider a tragedy and you seem to believe a tale with goodies against villains.

Roberto, you started the nasty insults when you started committing character assassination against people here in this thread by accusing them of anti-Semitism. If you don't like getting what you dish out, don't dish it out.

I have no problem with a two state solution, as long as neither state tries to maintain any artificial majorities based on religion or ethnicity. But whether or not I support this is irrelevant because it's just not going to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM

CarolC, I've accused of Anti-Semitism characters that fully deserve this charge, such as the italian group on board the flottilla, linked with a site full of anti-semite trash and to those "historians" that say that the holocaust never happenend. I expected this fact to mean something for a person with an acute sensibility against racism as you declare to be, but I was wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 11:45 AM

"The video clearly shows a soldier in the melee with just a paint ball gun.
Whatever was in the pellets they would do less harm than a metal bar swung with both hands.
I do not believe they were stun grenades Carol.
Just fireworks."
Paintball guns - fireworks - what has the Israeli army come to?
Monty Python would have a field day!
You have a list of the weapons carried by the Israeli Army and you have their track record for brutality - on what grounds do you "don't believe" (apart from the logic of an army sending in unarmed troops - that is)?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

CarolC, I've accused of Anti-Semitism characters that fully deserve this charge, such as the italian group on board the flottilla, linked with a site full of anti-semite trash and to those "historians" that say that the holocaust never happenend. I expected this fact to mean something for a person with an acute sensibility against racism as you declare to be, but I was wrong.

I asked you to show me evidence that the woman whose writings appear on the page of the group you are saying is anti-Semitic even knows that her writing has appeared there. You have not answered my request. She writes for a different organization than the one that you are saying is anti-Semitic. So far, I have not seen any evidence that she actually writes for the anti-Semitic group or that she is even aware that her material appears on their pages or if she is aware of it, that she approves of it. Or that she is in any way in sympathy with their agenda or beliefs. And I have been in consultation with someone in Italy and asked this person to see if they could see any evidence of it, and they could not. So if you have any evidence that the woman whose writing you are talking about has knowledge that her writing appears on the website of an anti-Semitic group, or that she approves of or is in sympathy with what they say and do, please present it here now.

The United States Constitution regularly appears on neo-Nazi hate sites here in the US. That doesn't make the United States Constitution a neo-Nazi hate document.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM

I am in a position to say who started it (the violence) because we see the first soldier set upon while still on the rope and clubbed to the deck.

All of the post from which this quote comes, Keith, is speculation. And you are not in a position to say who started it because you do not know what happened before that first Israeli boarded the ship.

We do have evidence that the Israelis opened fire first. You have nothing except what the government of Israel has said, and it has already been proven that quite a lot of what they have said about what happened is lies. So you are choosing to believe proven liars with no evidence to back it up. That's fine, just don't try to pretend that you are doing anything other than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM

"Jim, you can see the soldiers with paintball guns."
You implied that the only weapons that the soldiers had were paint-ball guns - this in not true.
"The IDF soldiers landed, with their paintball guns on their backs, and were attacked with great violence."
The weapons carried were as I described - they don't send soldiers in with paintball guns and fireworks.
You seems to be confusing all this with a Sealed Knot event.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

"Yes I have been hit with one.
"Serious soft tissue damage" is hype for a nasty bruise."

Ok then - now imagine that it contains glass and has been fired into your face.

What kind of superficial bruising woould that do to a man?



Hey Keith - Here's a link to a Stun Grenade explosion.

Utterly Stunned

A flash and a bang - a bit like the clip you proviided.

But where did it come from?

Oh yes - Al Jazeeras reporter informed us that there were stun grenades being fired onto the ship.

So that is consistent with your video.

The reporters credibility is STILL intact.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:27 PM

"I am in a position to say who started it (the violence) because we see the first soldier set upon while still on the rope and clubbed to the deck."

No you aren't because you are unable to refute whether bullets, rubber or live, or stun grenades were fired at the ship.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM

A flotilla of 9 ships with 800 passengers is preparing to head for Gaza soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

Ships can and are boarded in international waters.
Many navies are stopping and searching suspected pirates in the Indian Ocean right now, without asking their permission.


Are these ships sailing under the flag of any country?


Remember that arms ship from N Korea a couple of years ago.

The UN authorized the boarding of that ship. And this is what makes it illegal for Israel to board the ships of the flotilla without permission. In order for a blockade to be legal, it must first be approved by the UN Security Council. Israel's blockade of Gaza has not been approved by the UN Security Council. So just the act of boarding the ships of the flotilla in international waters (or even in Gazan waters had it taken place there) was an illegal attack under international law, and the people on the ships being boarded (ships sailing under the flags of several countries, making the ships the sovereign territory of those countries) had the right under international law to defend themselves and their ships and to do whatever it would take to prevent their ships from being boarded.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:58 PM

CarolC: TerraSantaLibera (http://www.terrasantalibera.org) is a site where you can often read articles by Angela Lano, together with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion; where they recommend books such as Il Martirio di Padre Tommaso per mano Giudaica (The martyrdom of Father Thomas at a Jewish hand); with medieval texts against the Jews; articles against the abortion, equalized to a murder; Christian crosses etc.

Angela Lano is also the Director of infopal.it. Mariano Mingarelli, leader of infopal.it since its foundation, a very known exponent of the organizations of friendship between Italy and the Palestinian people, resigned from his position as President of infopal.it a few days before the story of the Gaza flotilla stating that too many anti-Semite were in the organization and that he didn't want his name to stay alongside with theirs.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM

Antisemitism on the Mudcat?

Note—occasionally I do not qualify the term Mudcat or Mudcatter to indicate that I am only referring to those folks who actually have made the statements here paraphrased. I'm aware that some all those making ant-Israel statements have not expressed every of those sentiments. But the constant use of 'many' or 'some' would necessarily muddle already difficult syntax. My analysis is based on the present thread, and the various similar threads over the past seven or eight years. I am also aware that a few posters have tried to defend Israel in whole or part on a post by post basis (I admire the Quixotic adventure)-JotSC

For over week I've been reading the posts of the usual anti-Israel crowd on the Mudcat. They stress they are only critical of Israel, and piously note they are not anti-Jewish, or God forbid, anti-Semitic. It has even been said that nothing written at this thread is ant-Semitic. Some take care to tell us that we shouldn't vent our opprobrium on Jews as a group...that would wrong. Yes it would be wrong, but mouthing platitudes arem't enough to remove the stench of anti-Semitism which runs through the thread. And worse, many of the same folks who here claim they 'are not anti-Semitic' bemoan the deserved condemnation and resultant firing and retirement of Helen Thomas, whose comments were classic anti-Semitic remarks.
On the 'Cat, Israelis, and only Israelis are are blamed for the violence on the Turkish ship—indeed for all violence between Palestineans and Israelis. While there will be a lot of hand-wringing and interpretation about the exact sequence of events, there, it is instructive to note that no violence took place on any of the other six blockade runners. An honest assessment might consider that something different by the blockade runners occurred on that ship that led to deaths and injuries. But whatever happened, the proximate cause was trying to run the blockade.

As a result of the incident, there is renewed call, here, to deligitimize Israel as a nation, and certainly as a Jewish state. There have been no calls for doing away with North Korea, which periodically shoots down South Korean aircraft, fires on and sinks South Korean vessels, and kidnaps South Korean soldiers or citizens...to say nothing of U S. journalists. There has been no call to deligitimize Somalia for for international piracy, or Sudan for the genocide in Darfur. There was no call to deligitimize Germany for trying to take over Europe, and for initiating World War II. There has never been a call to deligitimize any of the European colonial powers which raped the people and resources of various regions of the world they gathered unto themselves. There are hundreds more examples I could mention, all far worse than anything Israel is alleged to be doing to Palestineans...but only Israel is singled out as needing to be excised from the world.

Israel is said to be undemocratic because it is a Jewish State. This is a straw man...there are no democratic Muslim states if one uses that same criterion which is used to castigate Israel. But there is no call to deligitimize them. Only Israel, the Jewish state!
It is said on Mudcat, that "most Israeli archaeologists and historians" assert that that European Jews have no connection to the Jews of the Near East or to Palestine (as Judea/Israel) itself. First, there only a bare minority (perhaps three or four) question that, and even they don't go so far as to be absolutist about it. Recent archaeological discoveries found in the Holy Land, Egypt and the generalized Middle East, tend to support many aspects of the Jewish history. Second, a simple Google search will find scores of articles which show evidence that Ashkenazi (European) Jews possess genetic and DNA material connecting them to ancient Israel. This also holds for Indian and Chinese Jews. There has been discussion of the Khazars and other European group groups which may have converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages, plus or minus, as proof that European Jews have no connection to Israel. Judaism considers that every convert to Judaism is the same as if s/he had actually been at Sinai. So by blood or by tradition all Jews have a connection to Israel. This is not unlike America (at least before the days of hyphenated Americans); naturalized citizens have every right and obligation, and are part of the history of America, just as same as natural born citizens. The only exception is the ban against becoming President.
The simple fact is that Muslim Arabs do not want a Zionist or Jewish entity within their region. And neither do many who post here. No matter what concessions, Israel has made, from repatriation of prisoners, to the total dismantling of Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip, the reciprocal event has been a rocket attack or Intifada most often. But only Israel is blamed for violence!

Several have called for a single state solution for a joint of Israel/Palestine, with absolute equality as between Jews and Palestineans. The modern vision of Israel as a Jewish homeland goes back to earliest Zionism, and was ratified by the League of Nations and the British Mandate (which none-the-less lopped off about 70% of the Mandate to create the Kingdom of Trans-Jordan about 1923). The United Nations created Israel, as well as India, Pakistan, and several other countries subsequent to World War II. While Israel is basically a democracy, it is not exactly congruent to, say, the United States. It was created explicitly to be a homeland for Jews... those already there, and those who wished to immigrate from where ever. Israel is not a theocracy by any stretch of the imagination, anymore than the United States was a theocracy for have Sunday Blue Laws. It is true that some groups would like to see more Bible-based laws enforced, but that has no not occurred. Mudcatters have a problem with the thought of that happening, but have no problem with a score or more of countries which are Islamic Republics and dictatorships which lean heavily on Shaaria Law. Several of those countries are creating far more worldwide problems than Israel has ever done or could ever do to Palestineans, but there is no call to dismantle Iraq, Iran etc. Only Israel! The so-called single state solution would, within a generation or two, dismantle the work of both the League of Nations and the United Nations, and destroy the concept of a Jewish Homeland. Of course, that could even come more quickly if a Grand Mufti or Imam should declare a pogrom (Jihad) against Jewish citizenry.

So, I have reached the following conclusions:
--If you blame Israel and only Israel (and throw in the USA) for the ills of Palestineans or the Middle East,
--If you consistently claim Israel is not a democratic country,
--If you deny the attachment of the Jewish people to ancient Israel,
--If you deny the attachment of Diaspora Jews to the population of ancient Jews,
--If you deny the right of the United Nations to ordain Israel, and only Israel among all the countries created since World War II,
--If you think Israel has forfeited the right to be a Jewish nation,
--If you support a 'single state' solution to end the Israel/Arab confict,
--Then claiming you are not anti-Semitic does not make it so. It just makes you un-self aware at best, or a dissembler at worst.

John on the Sunset Coast


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM

CarolC: TerraSantaLibera (http://www.terrasantalibera.org) is a site where you can often read articles by Angela Lano, together with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion; where they recommend books such as Il Martirio di Padre Tommaso per mano Giudaica (The martyrdom of Father Thomas at a Jewish hand); with medieval texts against the Jews; articles against the abortion, equalized to a murder; Christian crosses etc.

Yes, Roberto. I already have seen that site, and I have seen the protocols there and I have seen the presence of some of her writing there. Now please show me some evidence that she is a aware of her writings appearing on that site, or that if she is aware of it, that she approved of it, or that she shares any of their ideology or beliefs. I have not seen any of that evidence yet.


Angela Lano is also the Director of infopal.it.

This is the only organization that I have seen her acknowledge being a part of. If you can produce any evidence that she was also actively participating in, and in agreement with the TerraSantaLibera organization, please present it here. I have repeatedly asked you to present these evidences. You have consistently failed to do so. I have not condemned Ms. Lano yet because you are refusing to provide evidence that I should. When you provide evidence that she is sympathetic with anti-Semites, or that she is an anti-Semite herself, then I will condemn her anti-Semitism. But not before that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

John,

You are approaching this from a logical point, based on reality. This is where you are wrong: Many here have no interest in reality, just their own view ( shall I say propaganda) about what THEY think should have happened.

I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinans to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews.

And I doubt many have read the 1921 and 1923 treaties ( which set the last boundries that the Arab states accepted) that they ignore in asking for the 1967 boundries, which the Arab nations did not accept.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

John on the Sunset Coast, I would characterize you as being supremacist on the basis that you support privileging one ethnic/religious group over all others in Israel. So you're really not in a position to be pointing fingers at others for any reason. And any accusations of anti-Semitism from you are not credible and are hypocritical.

If you don't support equal rights for everyone, and if you support one set of rules for one religion/ethnicity, and another set of rules for other religions/ethnicities, you are a racists and a supremacist.

It is not anti-Semitic for those of us who are paying for what Israel is doing to focus on that. And you are lying when you say that we focus on Israel to the exclusion of all other countries who are also committing human rights abuses. This thread is about Israel. Those of us who are criticizing Israel in this thread also criticize other governments in other threads. You need to paint us as anti-Semites because you are trying to defend the indefensible, and you are supporting racism and supremacism.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM

By the way, more and more video is being released by people who were able to smuggle it out undetected.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

CarolC: Angela Lano has her stuff on an anti-semite site against her will? Is the director of another site that its founder leaves after a lifetime because it has become full of too many anti-semite and has nothing to do with that? Your faith is too strong (and blind).


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM

CarolC: Angela Lano has her stuff on an anti-semite site against her will? Is the director of another site that its founder leaves after a lifetime because it has become full of too many anti-semite and has nothing to do with that? Your faith is too strong (and blind).

Hate sites use material without permission from the authors all the time. You said he left because of anti-Semitism. I want to see some evidence of that before I form a judgment, and if so, I also want to see evidence that Ms. Lano is one of the people he objected to.

I am not operating on faith at all in this context. I have not formed a judgment one way or another. But I have seen far too many specious and venal accusations of anti-Semitism (some of them even leveled at me) being used to falsely discredit people and silence dissent, to accept such accusations without evidence. You show me the evidence and I will join you in your condemnations of Ms. Lano. Until then, I refuse to form any judgments one way or the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinans to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews.

beardedbruce, you have repeatedly asked me if I support the right of Jews to return to where they were fleeing from during war, and I have repeatedly said that I do. So if you are including me in this blanket statement, you are lying.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM

So Jews driven out in 79CE get to go back to Israel?

Yes or no:


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM

I find it interesting that those who give the right to Palestinians to return after fleeing during a war deny that right to Jews.

Who on earth is supposed to have said that, anyway?

After 2,000 years that right of return is somewhat reduced, as it would be for any of us, in respect of wherever it was our ancestors were living at that time.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM

In this video, you can hear shots coming from the boats, and you can hear explosions and impacts coming from the helicopter before the Israels have descended and while they are descending. This is a short clip from an hour long video that was smuggled out by one of the passengers. She is releasing the rest of the video at the UN today...

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2010/6/10/the_images_they_didnt_want_seen_video_and_photographs_from_on_board_the_mavi_marmara


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

So Jews driven out in 79CE get to go back to Israel?

Yes or no:


Sure, as long as they are there as equals with all of the other people there and that all of the people there are subject to the same laws and rules, and that anyone else who wants to live there can as well, regardless of their religion or ethnicity.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM

"Sure, as long as they are there as equals with all of the other people there and that all of the people there are subject to the same laws and rules, and that anyone else who wants to live there can as well, regardless of their religion or ethnicity. "

Since NONE of those conditions apply to the Arab nations that the Jews were driven out of in 1948, shouldn't Israel be held to the same standards that the Arab countires have imposed?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM

Since NONE of those conditions apply to the Arab nations that the Jews were driven out of in 1948, shouldn't Israel be held to the same standards that the Arab countires have imposed?

Show me some proof of this, beardedbruce, and not from a zionist website. It has to come from websites that represent the governments you are accusing.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

"If you blame Israel and only Israel (and throw in the USA) for the ills of Palestineans or the Middle East,"
Israel is a highly militarised, terrorist state which has persistently used its military might in pursuit of an expansionist policy.
Through its persistant disregard for human rights and international law it has done more damage to the Jewish people than has been done by any dedicated anti-Semite organisation since the end of W.W.2.
"If you deny the attachment of the Jewish people to ancient Israel..."
This is basing the existance of a state on a 2000 year old myth and, carried to its logical conclusion, would justify any demand to returning of the USA to the Native Americans, New Zealand to the Maori people and Australia to...... where would you like to call a halt?
"If you consistently claim Israel is not a democratic country,"
The Nazi Party were elected democratically - how you attain power is only a part of the picture, how you use it when you have it is what counts.
The only anti Semitism to appear on this thread has been in the imaginations of those spineless enough to resort to the blackmail tactic of "agree with me or I'll call you an anti-Semite".
You have my gratitude - reading your prescriptive list explains perfectly where Israel is coming from.
The whingeing and snivelling about paint-bomb guns, fire works or who fired first is totally beside the point. Israeli troops committed an act of piracy on the high seas, they killed (possibly executed) unarmed or poorly armed non combatants who were well within their legal rights in offering resistance.
In the past they have been guilty of slaughtering civilians, buldozing homes, using chemical weapons and ghettoising citizens in order to annex their land - war crimes, no less.
I suppose this make me (along with the vast majority of the democratic, free-thinking world) an anti-Semite.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:14 PM

With all this stuff about how canisters and such like fired at people aren't anything to worry about,here is a reminder of a story about something like that which has been posted in this thread, but hasn't got too much attention in the media - Peace activist, Emily Henochowicz, loses eye after being shot with tear gas

"Emily was "hit in the face with a tear gas projectile fired directly at her by an Israeli soldier during the demonstration at Qalandiya checkpoint today." Sören Johanssen, a Swedish activist standing beside Henochowicz, reported that, "They fired many canisters at us in rapid succession. One landed on either side of Emily, then the third one hit her in the face.""

Of course she didn't get hit by a bullet, so that's all right...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:36 PM

"Sling shots with pebbles are also as dangerous as paintballs."
But not as dangerous as "tazer gun, Uzi sub-machine guns, Glock handguns" which the Israelis were carrying.
Still deciding how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM

Carol, I understand that you disbelieve the Israelis, but why do you accept everything from the other side without question?

I disbelieve everything that is said by the Israelis because they are always proven to be lying and because they refuse to release the rest of the video evidence. And I believe the people on the flotilla because I am a part of their movement and I know what they are about.


The new video. It shows no firing of anything from the boats.
No sign of anything coming at the ship, and passengers do not appear concerned. We see no injured people at all.


You can hear the sounds of things hitting the ship. You can also see one exploded paint pellet on a wall on the ship. You can hear many sounds of explosions and things hitting the ship that are coming from the helicopters. You can see many injured passengers. You don't see them before the Israelis landed because the person with the camera was not in the area that was being fired upon. At least not in the part that we saw. We don't know what is on the rest of the video.


We do see the ladder with red liquid running down the bulkhead, and the sound of probable shots. Can we be sure it is in time sequence?
You would challenge that from the other side.


I have no doubt that experts could make this determination. I would encourage the people involved to have the video examined by experts.


There is no sign of shooting from the helicopter.

You can hear the sound of shooting from the helicopter.


The commentary in your first video spoke of nothing but cannisters. No explosions or incoming fire mentioned. Why not?

Keith, as you can see, the correspondents are not on the part of teh ship where the shooting is taking place. They are not able to take the live feed there for several reasons, one being that the equipment is set up there were they are. And events are happening too fast for them to be able to keep up.


My boat video must be pre landing because the boat is not visible in the landing sequence, and would be.
The firecrackers/stun grenades explode in the boat. There is no evidence that they came from the boat, and it makes no sense. Likewise the plates.


Keith, your video shows only a very small portion of the water next to the ship. To think that you know what is outside the field of vision of the camera is pretty ridiculous. The passengers said that they were throwing back into the boats things that had been fired into the ship.

I am calling for all video evidence to be released by the government of Israel. You can not say that we don't know it exists, because the existence of smuggled footage proves that the journalists are telling the truth when they say they were filming and photographing what was happening, and that it was confiscated. That, and the Israeli government has been selectively releasing some of the footage itself, so it can't deny it exists.

I call for all of the video evidence to be released and to be examined by experts. On the other hand, you have already decided that the government of Israel is telling the truth even though they have already been caught in numerous lies and have been forced to retract many of the things they've said about the flotilla members and about what happened that night. You are willing to accept, without question, the word of proven liars. I am demanding that all of the evidence be released and examined by experts.

Between the two of us, I am the only one who is interested in the truth.


Re. Indian Ocean pirates, they could fly all the flags in the world and they would still be boarded without asking their permission.

This is speculation, and not fact. Please cite to me the law that would permit such boardings, and what criteria govern what ships that sail under the flag of a country may be forcibly boarded and for what reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM

And to follow up McGrath's post, here is video evidence that Israeli soldiers deliberately aim for the head with their tear gas cannisters...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv1DZNn39O8


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM

1000


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM

Carol, I understand that you disbelieve the Israelis, but why do you accept everything from the other side without question?

I would also like to say that every time the government of Israel has been proven to be lying, the proof has vindicated what the passengers were saying. So not only does the government of Israel have a proven track record of lying, the passengers on the flotilla have a proven track record of telling the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM

In the Jerusalem Dispatch on June 1st it was reported that
"The soldiers thought they would encounter Bilin-style violence"

What is Bilin?

"Bil'in is a Palestinian village that is struggling to exist. It is fighting to safeguard its land, its olive trees, its resources… its liberty.

By annexing close to 60% of Bil'in land for Israeli settlements and the construction of Israel's separation wall, the state of Israel is strangling the village. Every day it destroys a bit more, creating an open air prison for Bil'in's inhabitants.
Supported by Israeli and international activists, Bil'in residents peacefully demonstrate every Friday in front of the "work-site of shame".
And every Friday the Israeli army responds with violence, both physically and psychologically"

Bilin a village of Palestine

On the 17th of April last year Bassem Abu Rahme was killed in Bil'in
He was shot with new kind of tear gaz canisters (The Rocket). He was shot in his chest which lead to his death immediately.
The high velocity tear-gas projectile, labeled "40 mm bullet, special/long range" in Hebrew has also critically injured American national, Tristan Anderson at a demonstration in Ni'lin on 13 March 2009 when he was shot in the head from 60 meters.

He participated in the weekly protest and was standing in the other side of the wall, and was shouting at the soldiers "we are in a nonviolent protest, there are kids and internationals" he couldn't continue his scrim and was shot. He was transferred to Ramallah governmental hospital, but he was dead

Basem Abu Rahme is the 18th individual to be killed by Israeli forces during a demonstration against the Wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM

CarolC: you play the lawyer with Angela Lano & Friends and had no problem in calling me a racist, laughable and very stupid insult. Think about what would you have said, you and your fiends, if I had labelled you as Hamas Press Office, but you had no problem in calling me a member of the hasbara brigade. Reciprocity is the foundation of every relationship.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM

If it were possible to have a filter to remove the person to person skirmishing, this would,be a much shorter thread, but a much more meaningful one.

The best thing to do when we feel attacked or insulted, rightly or wrongly, fairly or unfairly, is to ignore it, and carry on with dealing with the actual issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:19 PM

Summary of this argument....errr contridiction.....errr, abuse thread:

SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
Yes, but I came here for an argument!!
OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

Oh look, this isn't an argument!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
It's just contradiction!
No it isn't!
It IS!
It is NOT!
You just contradicted me!
No I didn't!
You DID!
No no no!
You did just then!
Nonsense!
I came here for a good argument!
AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!
An argument isn't just contradiction.
Well! it CAN be!
No it can't!
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't!
Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
It is NOT!
It is!
Not at all!
It is Not

Quotes:Thanks to the Monty Python Argument Clenic team (AKA, "Mudcat New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid" Argument Clenic)

Just an observation, not an argument, contradiction or abuse statement :)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:21 PM

CarolC: you play the lawyer with Angela Lano & Friends and had no problem in calling me a racist, laughable and very stupid insult. Think about what would you have said, you and your fiends, if I had labelled you as Hamas Press Office, but you had no problem in calling me a member of the hasbara brigade. Reciprocity is the foundation of every relationship.

Roberto, you're the one who set the tone. I'm not playing lawyer with Angela Lano. The charge of anti-Semitism is regularly used by people defending Israel who want to discredit people in order to silence them. We can see quite a bit of it right here in this thread. If this wasn't such a regular practice, people like me might be a bit less skeptical when we see people making that accusation.

So let me ask you this, then... do you support maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel, or do you support the right of the Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from their homes during the Nakba to return to their areas of origin?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM

"They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves."

NO Keith they do NOT!

They have stated unabiguously that NONE of the banned and desperately required items like cenent and batteries for wheelchairs will be allowed in

If you want to know what Israelis can do with all the cement that WILL NOT be going to Gaza - take a look at a video on yopu tube of illegal settlers pouring cement into springs used by Palestinians!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

Lox, Carol and Jim, you just know that Israelis can only do bad things, and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious.

If the Israelis weren't so regularly caught lying and committing all kinds of libels on other people, we might see it differently.

The government of Israel has repeatedly been caught lying about the people in the flotilla and about what happened. If they weren't doing bad things, they would have no reason to lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:26 PM

The sounds on the new video soundtrack are absolutely not identifiable as gunfire.

I'm willing to let an expert make that determination because I care about the truth. How about you?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM

"Lox ... you just know that Israelis can only do bad things"

I see that Keith A, famous impartial critic, has run out of actual arguments, so he is reduced to:

1: Pigeon holing his opponents into one lump.

2: Inventing opinons for them collectively (in this case one I don't hold)

3: Reasserting his version of the 'facts' despite serious doubt beinbg cast on them.


Your stubbornesss and obtuseness bely your lack of neutrality Keith.

Your personal slander marks you out as being full of shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM

Yes, that's a good point, Lox. The way he phrased it really doesn't apply to any of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM

They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves.

They have done that every time, and made it known that was to happen this time."


That just is not true. Any deliveries are only made after the Israelis have removed a whole range of essential items, according to some insane list of what isn't allowed. Medical equipment, building materials - even stuff like jam and various types of sweets. Though I see that they have now offered to allow jam and potato chips and a few items like this into Gaza, having banned them for years...
................

It is nonsense to call the behaviour of people resisting an attack by armed intruders "unprovoked violence". If an Israeli boat were boarded in international waters by an armed force of opponents would any sane person describe it as "unprovoked violence" if they laid about the intruders with everything they had to hand?

It would have been more prudent of the protesters to hold off and maintain non-violent discipline in face of the attack - though the history of non-violence, in Israel, as well as in places like India in the time of Gandhi, apartheid South Africa, the Jim Crow American South and elsewhere is that you can still get killed, especially if you are making any progress.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:43 PM

you just know that Israelis can only do bad things

This has no basis in reality. I would say that the Israeli government only does bad things, and the evidence supports this assertion. That is hardly the same as saying that all Israelis can only do bad things, and your having said it that way shows your own bias.

and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious.

I am calling for the release of all evidence. You are the one who wants to suppress the rest of the evidence. So that would make you complicit in Israel's lies. Under the circumstances, it's quite obvious that you are the one with the closed mind. If your mind was open, you would also wish to see the release of the rest of the evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM

"It would have been more prudent of the protesters to hold off and maintain non-violent discipline in face of the attack"

This is what the cammandoes - at least some of them rather young men from the reports - had been led to expect

A 'Bilin style' protest where non violent protesters like 29 year old Bassem Abu Rahme are killed


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