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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM
Emma B 10 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 06:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM
Joe Offer 10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM
Emma B 10 Jun 10 - 08:18 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 08:24 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 01:08 AM
Roberto 11 Jun 10 - 01:43 AM
mousethief 11 Jun 10 - 01:46 AM
Roberto 11 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 10 - 01:57 AM
mousethief 11 Jun 10 - 02:10 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 02:34 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 02:48 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 10 - 03:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 10 - 03:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 03:53 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 05:38 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 05:46 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 06:08 AM
Penny S. 11 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM
Penny S. 11 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 07:25 AM
bobad 11 Jun 10 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 10 - 08:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 10 - 08:07 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM
Emma B 11 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 10 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 10 - 10:06 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 11:11 AM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM
Emma B 11 Jun 10 - 12:12 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 12:14 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM

More passenger testimony


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM

That's what I meaqnt, Emma. Effective non-violent protesters can expect to meet violence, including lethal violence. And the more effective they become, the greater the violence they will meet.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

But Kevin, how many people have heard of Bassem Abu Rahme or Tristan Anderson or Emily Henochowicz or the others not 'martyrs' just young people standing up for what they believe


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:19 PM

I just saw an announcement that a flotilla that is supposed to be leaving Lebanon for Gaza in a week or two may have as many as 50 ships.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM

How many people can remember the names of pretty well anyone killed in any sort of conflict? Non-violent struggle is no different. Non-violence isn't about being safe, it's about achieving a kind of victory that violence cannot achieve.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM

Weird - keiths post in which he admitted to having no more arguments has disappeared.

Oh well.

I read it while it was there so I will take his admission with me.



I think I've had enough of this headache.


It's utterly exhausting!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM

It certainly is, Lox.

I just fully realized what Keith is trying to pull over on us, too. He is telling us to believe the people who are hiding evidence and he's telling us not to believe the people who are saying they want all of the evidence to be seen by the public, and that to believe the people who are hiding evidence is being open minded, and to believe the people who are saying they want all of the evidence shown to the public is closed minded. Interesting mental equation there.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

More footage with much better sound and resolution...

http://gazaflotilla.delegitimize.com/statements/activist-statements/exclusive-16-minute-footage-from-mavi-marmari/


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM

""It is difficult for me to think that a person with a normal ability to perceive the reality could actually be convinced that a one state solution would have any chance to lead to peace (and democracy) in that area.""

Let us assume for a moment that you are right about this.

So, the two state solution is the better way to go (hypothetically).

That would require that each side remain within its own territory.

With me so far?......GOOD!

Then tell me this. Which side is occupying part of the other side's territory, and has been for over fifty years.

I'll giv you a clue.........ITS NAME IS ISRAEL!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM

Note to Keith -
Please see the first message in this thread. I had to prohibit Guest posts in this thread because we had some troublesome ones. I deleted a number of posts from you because you weren't logged in.
If you need help logging in, contact me by e-mail.
-Joe Offer-
joe@mudcat.org


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:18 PM

"I just fully realized what Keith is trying to pull over on us, too"

I'm just wondering if the last few posts allegedly from Keith were or if some prat is playing silly buggers - heaven's knows it wouldn't be the first time an identity has been abused


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:24 PM

In this last video, we can quite clearly hear shots being fired before the Israelis have come down from the helicopters, and what I had thought was paint on a wall from pellets in the lower quality version, is actually blood dripping down from a hatch (before the Israelis have come down from the helicopter).


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM

I get extremely fed up of hearing accusations of Anti Semitism levelled at anyone who dares criticise the actions of the Israeli government, or the IDF.

When will apologists for these thugs realise that the Israeli government and the IDF are institutionally Anti Semitic in their hatred of Palestinian Arabs..

Both Jews and Arabs are Semites, so the concept that only hatred of Jews is Anti Semitic, is, to put it bluntly, arrant bloody nonsense.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:08 AM

Israeli document: Gaza blockade isn't about security

By Sheera Frenkel | McClatchy Newspapers

JERUSALEM — As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as "economic warfare" against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory.

Israel imposed severe restrictions on Gaza in June 2007, after Hamas won elections and took control of the coastal enclave after winning elections there the previous year, and the government has long said that the aim of the blockade is to stem the flow of weapons to militants in Gaza.

Last week, after Israeli commandos killed nine volunteers on a Turkish-organized Gaza aid flotilla, Israel again said its aim was to stop the flow of terrorist arms into Gaza.

However, in response to a lawsuit by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group, the Israeli government explained the blockade as an exercise of the right of economic warfare.

"A country has the right to decide that it chooses not to engage in economic relations or to give economic assistance to the other party to the conflict, or that it wishes to operate using 'economic warfare,'" the government said.

McClatchy obtained the government's written statement from Gisha, the Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, which sued the government for information about the blockade. The Israeli high court upheld the suit, and the government delivered its statement earlier this year.

Sari Bashi, the director of Gisha, said the documents prove that Israel isn't imposing its blockade for its stated reasons, but rather as collective punishment for the Palestinian population of Gaza. Gisha focuses on Palestinian rights.

(A State Department spokesman, who wasn't authorized to speak for the record, said he hadn't seen the documents in question.)

The Israeli government took an additional step Wednesday and said the economic warfare is intended to achieve a political goal. A government spokesman, who couldn't be named as a matter of policy, told McClatchy that authorities will continue to ease the blockade but "could not lift the embargo altogether as long as Hamas remains in control" of Gaza.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html?mi_pluck_action=comment_submitted&qwxq=4681640#Comments_Container?storylink=addthis


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:43 AM

Angela Lano signed a call in favour of the right of Robert Faurisson to deliver a lecture at Teramo University in 2007 (The Holocaust never happened, the gas chambers are an invention, and so on) and has often being protagonist of conferences together with characters that belong to the extreme right, fascist and nazi type, such as the scholar Claudio Mutti, linked with Franco Freda, the terrorist with responsibility in the Piazza Fontana Massacre (1969), Tiberio Graziani, a fascist scholar, etc.

But maybe CarolC prefers not to know these facts, and fancy a flotilla crew all composed by immaculate peace lovers.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:46 AM

What means "signed a call"?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM

I meant she made an appeal.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 01:57 AM

The deleted posts were mine.
Carol, I did not tell you to believe one side and not the other.
That is what you do now.
I advise you to believe nothing that is not supported, or is contradicted, by video evidence.
All my arguments are from the video evidence. That is why I have no more arguments. I have never repeated IDF propaganda, and I refuted their claim to have been attacked with stun grenades. You, believed the ridiculous story about them being thrown or fired up from boats and then thrown back.

The cargo was delivered to Gaza but last I heard Hamas refused it.
There is an arbitrary sounding list of prohibited items.
Israel regards itself as being at war with the Hamas state and justified in only allowing essentials.
All debatable, but everyone knows about it.
    Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
    From: GUEST,keith. - PM
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:13 PM

    Lox, Carol and Jim, you just know that Israelis can only do bad things, and close your mind to any other explanation however obvious.

    You might not think it legitimate to stop blockade runners, and it is a grey area, but everyone knows that is what israelis do.

    They board the vessel, take it to Israel, and then deliver the cargo to Gaza themselves.

    They have done that every time, and made it known that was to happen this time.

    And that actually is what happened.
    The only difference this time was that the protesters overwhelmed the boarding party with unprovoked violence. The lightly armed soldiers were at their mercy and subject to violence that could be expected to kill for 3 minutes until they shot some people.

    Then they took the ship to Israel and delivered the cargo to Gaza as usual.


    Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
    From: GUEST,keith - PM
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM

    The sounds on the new video soundtrack are absolutely not identifiable as gunfire.


    Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
    From: GUEST,keith - PM
    Date: 10 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM

    Lox, yes, I have run out of arguments, until new evidence emerges.
    Carol, I expect to be proved right about the sounds, but we shall see and I will grovel if proved wrong.
    Lox, you might not agree with my statement about you three, but I think it fair because you, Lox, insisted that the cowering soldiers on the deck being clubbed by a gang weilding metal bars are being agressive, and their attackers are helpless victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:10 AM

But Keith, some of your arguments are not from the video evidence, but from the video lack of evidence. If you look at a video and say "there was no shooting until X happened" what you don't know is what happened before the start of the video clip that you saw. Was the beginning chopped off? Did they only start filming after they heard shots being fired? We don't know. You can't look at a piece of video and say what happened "first" until you know the history of the video and what came before it. And you certainly can't do that and claim your arguments are "from the video evidence".


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:34 AM

But maybe CarolC prefers not to know these facts, and fancy a flotilla crew all composed by immaculate peace lovers.

If I preferred to not know them, why would I have asked you three or more times to show them to me?

Ok. I am very saddened that someone like Angela Lano was participating in the flotilla. Her presence there does not at all assist the cause of helping the Palestinians gain their freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:48 AM

Carol, I did not tell you to believe one side and not the other.
That is what you do now.


You told me I was being closed minded for not believing your version.

I advise you to believe nothing that is not supported, or is contradicted, by video evidence.

Actually, you have repeatedly done just that.

All my arguments are from the video evidence.

Except that they're not. A lot of your arguments you have even admitted are your belief and your opinion based on nothing other than what you think about things. Like for instance, whether or not pirate ships that fly under the flag of a country would be boarded in international waters.

That is why I have no more arguments.

You never really had any to begin with. Just a lot of wild speculation based on the lies that have been promoted by the government of Israel.

You, believed the ridiculous story about them being thrown or fired up from boats and then thrown back.

You have no evidence that this did not happen. You only have your opinion that it did not.

The cargo was delivered to Gaza but last I heard Hamas refused it.

I have been told by someone in Gaza, who made a special trip to the local Hamas office to ask them about it just for me, that Hamas are concerned that if they accept that aid from the government of Israel, people will accuse them of stealing some of it. They have good reason to be concerned about this, since both Israel and the US have used this tactic against them in the past. If Israel is sincere about ensuring that the people of Gaza get the aid that they stole from the flotilla, they can very easily hand it over to one or more of the many NGOs that operate in Gaza.

There is an arbitrary sounding list of prohibited items.
Israel regards itself as being at war with the Hamas state and justified in only allowing essentials.


As the Israeli government document that is discussed in the article in my last link shows, the blockade is an act of collective punishment (a war crime under the Geneva Conventions) in order to accomplish the political agenda of forcing Hamas out of office. As such, it is an illegal blockade, and the people on board the ships of the flotilla had every right under international law, to defend themselves and their ships.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:04 AM

"Summary of this argument...."
If that is all that you have got from this discussion Ed - you haven't been listening.
There has been a great deal of detailed argument produced from both sides and an attempt to analyse it.
On the other hand there have been a number of unsubstantiated and dishonest accusations of racism (including your own) - which really belong at the top of your list.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:19 AM

Carol and Mousethief,
If there had been firing before the landing, there should be evidence on the shipboard videos.
None of them show it happening or show the results except possibly that ladder scene.
The commentator would have referred to it in his rants against the Israelis. The people who keep rushing in with news of what the Israelis are doing all forget to mention that the Israelis are shooting at them. That is good evidence that there was no shooting.
Also, the soldiers did not all carry firearms.
As has been mentioned, Israeli soldiers usually do.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM

Carol, your new video shows that the boat alongside was filmed well before the landings.
In one continuous take we see the helicopter, the side if the ship and distant boats.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM

Blood, Keith. Dripping from the open hatch.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 03:53 AM

Keith, there wasn't only one boat along side the ship. There were many.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM

Look, Keith, the passengers are all saying the same things. And they all want all of the video footage and still shots to be released. These are not stupid people. They wouldn't be calling for the video and still shots to be released if they wouldn't support what they have been saying. To think that they would do that is just silly. There is no reason to not believe them. The government of Israel has been caught in numerous lies. They don't want the video and still shots to be released. There is every reason to not believe them.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:38 AM

Something everyone here seems to have missed which amazes me is that as the camera is showing us the blood on the ladder, it pans rouns and films a red dot moving around on the deck which is clearly from a lazer sighting on a machine gun.

There is much attention drawn to this lazer sighting.

All of the above is filmed before troops land.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:46 AM

"I refuted their claim to have been attacked with stun grenades."

Ok - The Israeli's claim they fired Stun Grenades.

The Ships passengers claim that stun grenades wre fired on board.

And There is a video of a stun grenade going off, which both Israelis and Palestinians claim is a stun grenade, except that they dispute its source.


But Keith has looked at the video and determined that it is a firework.


I think Keith should testify at the investigation as none of the witnesses on any side have a clue what really happened, only Keith does.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM

"Also, the soldiers did not all carry firearms.
As has been mentioned, Israeli soldiers usually do."

How do you know?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM

At 2:08 in the film you can clearly see an Israeli trooper sitting with his legs hanging out the door of the helicopter and a machine gun at the ready on his knee and pointing down at the ship. He appears to have no gloves on his hands and is not preparing to abseil down as both hands are occupied with the gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:08 AM

The sequence with the lazer sighting is from 1:32 to 1:50, interrupted briefly by a scandanavian journalist tellling the camera what is happening.

The discovery of the blood, coinciding with the sound of distant guns, followed by the sight of a lazer machine gun sight and the image of an Israeli soldier sitting with his machine gun poised, coincides with the testimony of the passengers that they were fired upon before the troopers landed on the ship.

The sound of gun fire on board the ship after the troops have landed is much clearer.

The people going below deck with the wounded are not in any more of a panic than the journalists ducking behind the lifeboats during the initial discovery of the blood.


The case is becoming more and more compelling, especially when combined wth Carols point that The Israelis are covering up while those who were on board are trying to make things more transparent.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM

I've been trying to track down something I read last year in the Guardian, where one of the women in the cabinet of the UK mentioned (as if it were understood to be a good thing) about the Royal Navy being involved in supporting the blockade. All I can find at the moment is odd mentions about helping to make sure weapons are not imported, which I have not been able to open, so I can't get involved in writing to the new government about their position on this.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM

Yet.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:25 AM

I made a mistake with the sighting of the Machine gun on the soldiers knee - I retract that observation.

On the other hand, I noted that the Israeli Soldiers who were brought downstairs on the video weree carried with exactly the same care as the wounded passengers were by those carying them.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:56 AM

The world was duped

By Miriam Ziv, Citizen Special June 11, 2010

The international outrage that arose immediately following the Israeli navy's recent interception of a Gaza-bound flotilla was a sad reminder of the hypocrisy Israel faces on a constant basis.

It would seem the greater part of the international media chose to ride the slander wave and for a few days at least, showed reticence in acknowledging this "peace mission" was actually a political stunt aimed at manipulating the world. Many journalists, sadly, abandoned their duties to search for the truth. Instead, they fuelled international outrage with rushed judgments and exaggerations.

The truth is spreading however. The situation has become more transparent, and the peaceful interception of the Rachel Corrie ship last week has, in concrete terms, exposed the difference between a humanitarian peace mission led by civilians and a violent mission led by hostile extremists. Last week, it was as if these words were completely interchangeable.

Despite the fact international coverage of the event has become a bit more balanced, the extremist nature of the organizers of the flotilla, as well as of some of the passengers on board, remains overlooked in many circles.

Leading the organizations participating in the aid flotilla was the Turkish organization IHH. The IHH, under the guise of an Islamic charity organization, plays a central role in terrorist recruitment and financing. Outlawed by the state of Israel in 2008, the IHH was also heavily scrutinized by the Turkish government, which first expressed concerns about the group in 1997. The office of the organization in Istanbul was searched and several activists arrested. Further inspection into what was found in the office revealed IHH members' plans to take part in jihadist activities in Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya. In recent years, the IHH has assisted Hamas with its propaganda campaign, as well as its armed struggle.

Five of the passengers were also found by the Israeli government to be active terror operatives, some providing direct financial support to al-Qaeda and others to Hamas.

The Middle East Media Research Institute has released footage of statements made by the head of the IHH Turkish Islamist organization, Bulent Yildirim, who in a speech delivered in Gaza in 2009, glorified martyrdom. The Israel Defence Forces released a video shot from the Mavi Marmara in which a passenger was heard discussing his desire to become a martyr.

Sadly, the demonization of Israel that has been reinforced by this incident has been a major distraction to the world which was really the flotilla's ultimate goal. Arab and Muslim populations, for example, are being manipulated into supporting the forceful dictatorships that rule over them, thereby forgetting the state of stagnancy they find themselves in.

What we are faced with is a campaign to spread Islamic fundamentalism around the world. Those who have participated in the global support for this flotilla have, knowingly or unknowingly, also helped to embolden Hamas and other terrorist organizations.

Much scarier than the confounding of words is the complete reversal of values by the international community. This voyage is not only part of an attempt to deny Israel's right to defend itself, it is also part of an orchestrated attempt to threaten western values, and this is not something the world should be so naive about. Extremist Muslim leaders have time and time again publicly stated that Islam would eventually take over, and the duping of the world is only part of their master plan.

Those who choose to unfairly attack Israel and isolate it for defending itself against terrorist threats, seem to be forgetting one crucial thing: "Israel's struggle," as the Spanish journalist Pilar Rahola wrote, "is the struggle of the world."

Miriam Ziv is Israel's ambassador to Canada.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/world+duped/3139305/story.html#ixzz0qXpmQGiP


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:05 AM

It transpires that the decision to board the aid ships was taken on political and not defensive grounds. It's reported in this mornings Irish Times, quoting from the Jewish Haaretz newspaper, that Israeli foreign mininstry officials and military legal advisers warned the government not to intercept the aid flotilla.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:07 AM

Lox, you may not see a soldier with a gun in the helicopter, but there would have been one covering the ship.
In the video of the boat alongside, a soldier can be seen taking aim but not firing.
That is what soldiers do.
If the laser spot is a gunsight, it is still not evidence that the ship was fired on.
That image below the hatch is the only evidence so far.
(Guest post was mine.)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM

"The world was duped"

And your evidence is the opinion of the Israeli Ambassador to Canada?

Well no bias there then.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM

In the Jerusalem Post there is an interview with the 'hero' commando (likely to be awarded a valour medal) who claims to have personally killed 6 of the victims of the military attack on the flotilla.

His description includes the following statement aimed at depicting the activists on board as trained Al-Qaeda terrorists

"T. said he realized the group they were facing was well-trained and likely ex-military after the commandos threw a number of stun grenades and fired warning shots BEFORE rappelling down onto the deck.
"They didn't even flinch," he said. "Regular people would move"


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:53 AM

Lox,

"which is clearly from a lazer sighting on a machine gun."


Big jump on your part- Shall I say that it is clearly a laser pointer from an IHH terrorist to make people think that the ship was being targeted- after all, I have the same evidence that YOU do- NONE.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:06 AM

This is BBC Newsnight Defence Editor disussing the incident with some of the erly images.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8718036.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:11 AM

Well BB,

I Guess EmmaB's post wraps it up.

The Israeli commando in her article, the passengers on the ship, and the Video footage all corroborate each other.

Specifically, they all corroborate the allegation that shots were fired before the troopers descended, and they confirm the allegations that stun grenades were fired on board.


As those are the disputed facts on this thread I guess we can move on until information emerges which clearly refutes those allegations.


In the meantime, the IDF and the Israeli government have a lot of work to do to repaair their international reputation after issuing so much falsified evidence and after making so many discredited accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

"that shots were fired before the troopers descended"

WARNING shots, per the report.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

I had noticed the laser light, too, but I forgot to mention it. As Lox said, it's an important part of the evidence.


The blood scene is compelling Lox. Carol previously thought it might be paint.

In the lower quality video, I wasn't able to see the amount of it. I thought it was just a little bit of paint splattered on the wall. But after seeing the higher quality video, I can see that it's not spattered at all, and there's far more of it than would be the case if it was from paint pellets. There's a lot of it and it's dripping down from the open hatch.


Carol, I have only argued from the video evidence.

Except that you have not. As someone else pointed out, you are arguing from what is not in the video evidence rather than what is in the video evidence. And since you aren't in a position to know what you can't see or hear, you can't use that as evidence. But we do have the witness testimonies and so far all of the evidence that has turned up has corroborated their testimonies and discredited the Israeli version of events. On that basis, and because the passengers are calling for the release of all of the footage and still shots, we can make a reasonable judgment that the passengers are telling the truth, and the Israeli government is lying.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM

We do have the blood evidence, though, beardedbruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:12 PM

'Warning' shots or not - how do people on the ground know the difference? - shots WERE fired before by reports from the commandos AND the passengers before the attacking forces landed!

This fact is only in dispute from the official Israeli media handouts.

The information from the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies on the flotilla victims undermines, from the manner and intensity of the killings, Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists.

…Dr Haluk Ince, the chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, said that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other victim suffered multiple wounds…He added that all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds.
Of this other round, he said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms. It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain."

This also ties in with some eyewitness accounts that shots were fired from above resulting in one death.

A TRAGEDY OF ERRORS?

American liberal Jewish blogger Richard Silverstein who 'focuses on Israeli-Palestinian peace but includes commentary on U.S. politics, a world music mp3 blog, and other writing on Jewish life, literature, and culture' comments….


"After reading thousands of words of reporting and eyewitness accounts and watching videos released by both sides, I'm coming to the conclusion that what happened was that the Israeli commandos initially fired stun grenades and rubber bullets from helicopters in order to disperse the crowd on board before they landed.

Either some passengers interpreted this as an all out assault on the ship or they were spoiling for a fight.

The initial group of commandos were overrun, beaten and some dragged below decks either to be used as hostages or for medical attention. I speculate that when the IDF command saw their comrades overrun on board and discovered they perhaps had been taken hostage, an automatic, instinctual blood-lust took over.
They not only had to liberate their comrades at all costs, but they had to eliminate whatever threat they had faced.

So, I don't necessarily believe the IDF went into this planning for a massacre (though senior IDF officers were quoted in the Israeli press as saying they were prepared to use lethal force if necessary). But when events spun out of control and did not follow the scenario they'd planned, soldiers began acting on impulse and in completely disorganized fashion, which is fatal to a complicated operation such as this.
In the end, it WAS a massacre. A massacre caused by missed cues and obliviousness on both sides as to how aggressive behavior might be viewed by the other side. Of course, the preponderance of blame is on the Israeli side both because they initiated the encounter and because they had the overwhelming advantage in lethal force.
Lest anyone misunderstand, I am not trying to defend or whitewash the Israeli attack by understanding or explaining how it might've gone wrong.

I am coming closer and closer to believing that most of the nine (and perhaps as many as 15) were executed after they were subdued and wounded.

Tikun Olam

a Hebrew phrase that means "repairing the world." a practice should be followed NOT because it is required by Biblical law, but because it helps avoid social chaos.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:14 PM

The assertion that it's because the Rachel Corrie was peaceful that it didn't get attacked is a lie. The other ships and boats in the flotilla that were with the Mavi Marmara were also peaceful, but they were taken violently and not peacefully. Nobody that we know of was killed on them, but there was nothing peaceful about the way the Israelis behaved towards the passengers on those ships. The passengers were beaten, and shot with tasers and rubber bullets.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM

Emma, the passengers report that they were being fired on with live rounds before the Israelis landed. We can see the blood dripping down from the open hatch before the Israelis landed. One of the journalists reported that he personally saw a man being shot from above in the top of his head, and he saw another journalist who was holding a camera taking footage being shot in the arm before the Israelis landed. The passengers are saying that the rest of the footage and still shots that the Israeli government is withholding will prove that they are telling the truth and the government of Israel is lying.

I don't think it really matters how many were killed before they landed and how many were killed after they landed. What matters is that the Israelis started killing before anything happened that they can claim necessitated acting in self-defense.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

I am very saddened to learn that Canada, a country I love, has become a fascist police state. The alternative rock group, The Pixies, has been put on Canada's list of "terrorist" organizations for refusing to perform in Israel. I think it might be time to boycott Canada.

http://australiansforpalestine.com/23813


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